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Mithadan
01-05-2001, 02:12 PM
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The Silmarillion suggests that Beleriand was destroyed and sank as a result of the War of Wrath. HoME 5, the Lost Road, suggests that the demise of Beleriand was more gradual and was finished by great waves resulting from the destruction of Numenor.

When and how do you think Beleriand was destroyed and sunk?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Grand Admiral Reese
01-07-2001, 08:46 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The drowning of Beleriand

The War of Wrath. If it hadn't been done then, the Grey Havens couldn't exist, and Aldarion couldn't have sailed to them on his journeys from Numenor.


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Inziladun
01-07-2001, 07:01 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The drowning of Beleriand

I agree that most of the damage had to be done in the War of Wrath. The Drowning caused changes also,but since Numenor was apparently far south of Mithlond,most of that ruin should have been noted mainly on the coasts south of the Havens of Umbar.

</p>

Saulotus
01-07-2001, 09:02 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The drowning of Beleriand

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> since Numenor was apparently far south of Mithlond<hr></blockquote>
Says who?
According to text it was in the north, closer to the old lands of Beleriand.
The description of Numenorean vegetation also holds to a northern latitude.
There is even a description of Anardil beholding the Bay of Balar for the first time by sailing south.
You don't find it strange that Mithlond was the FIRST stop from a proposed southern location?

As for when Beleriand was 'mostly' ruined... try reading note 3 to Aldarion and Erendis. The description of the destruction was made as early as circa S.A. 600.

I say 'mostly' with some reservation, as there had to be time for evacuations and whatnot.

</p>

Inziladun
01-07-2001, 11:47 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The drowning of Beleriand

Well as far as I know,the exact location of Numenor as far as latitude goes was not told in the books. I don't know how &quot;authentic&quot; it's considered,but The Atlas of Middle Earth has Eressea right in line with The Girdle of Arda (equator). Of course Numenor has to be near Eressea because Avallone could be seen from the Meneltarma. I think Numenor was a bit north of the equator,but not in line with Lindon.
In ME,the region of the Forodwaith and Ice Bay of Forochel &quot;lie hardly more than a hundred leagues north of the Shire&quot;. So the northwest of ME,where most of the tales take place,is not far removed from polar regions and Eskimo- like peoples. Snow is said to be rare in the Shire,but it did happen. And whatever the reason for it,we have snow falling near Moria,which is roughly in line with the southern end of the Ered Luin.
Conversely,snow and ice seem to be unknown in Numenor. At least there is no mention I recall. And when the bough of oiolaire on Aldarion's ship is withered by cold after he and his men had been &quot;driven into wastes perilous with ice&quot; all are shocked. If Numenor was at a high latitude,wouldn't that be at least not an uncommon occurance?
As far as Mithlond being the first destination of the Numenoreans when they return to ME,I don't find it odd. Lindon was all that was left of Beleriand after the War of Wrath,and it seems natural that's where they would have set out from for Numenor in the first place. Mithlond was founded Year 1,Second Age. The Edain reached Numenor Year 32. So they would have known about the Havens, and Gil-Galad would have been the first person to see when they returned.

And it's somewhat ambiguous,but we are told the chief haven of the Numenorean Faithful was Pelargir. &quot;But the King's Men sailed far away to the South&quot;. Of what? Pelargir or Numenor? If the latter,it can be inferred Pelargir was not south of Numenor.
And one more point. Aman and ME drew close together at the Helcaraxe,another polar region. Numenor was a fairly large island,and with the Sea narrowing between Beleriand and Aman,wouldn't ME be a relative stone's throw away aven after the War of Wrath?

And wasn't Balar ruined by Anardil's time? Where does it say that he saw it?



</p>

Saulotus
01-08-2001, 12:48 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The drowning of Beleriand

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don't know how &quot;authentic&quot; it's considered<hr></blockquote>
Not very. Not very at all.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So the northwest of ME,where most of the tales take place,is not far removed from polar regions and Eskimo- like peoples<hr></blockquote>
So you're saying that the region of Dorthonion was near polar conditions? Even &gt;I&lt; don't place Numenor this high in latitude.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If Numenor was at a high latitude,wouldn't that be at least not an uncommon occurance?<hr></blockquote>
You misinterpret my words. I said northern, as in NOT NEAR the equator but above it. In all probability, at a relative latitude as that of Minhiriath or thereabouts. The Hills of Evendim remind Elendil not only of Numenorean lands but also of climate.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> As far as Mithlond being the first destination of the Numenoreans when they return to ME,I don't find it odd<hr></blockquote>
So you don't find it odd that the shores of Middle-earth south of Lindon were unknown (even in passing) since they had to sail from the south instead of almost directly across?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If the latter,it can be inferred Pelargir was not south of Numenor.<hr></blockquote>
More or less correct. It was south AFAIK, but only slightly so.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> wouldn't ME be a relative stone's throw away aven after the War of Wrath?<hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure I'd classify 700 miles (and\or more) as a 'stone's throw', since it would have to be at least this far out so as to not be a part of Beleriand, (especially to a race re-learning sea travel with no coasts as guides).

Do I consider the description of Numenor to match that of an Equatorial or Near-Equatorial island, even discounting other evidence that places it at a higher latitude? NO WAY!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And wasn't Balar ruined by Anardil's time? Where does it say that he saw it<hr></blockquote>
My bad. Was in a rush. Bay of Belegaer. I stand corrected.

</p>

Mithadan
01-08-2001, 10:10 AM
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Re: The drowning of Beleriand

My view, synthesizing texts (and without checking the Aldarion and Erndis footnote), is that the destruction of Beleriand began with the War of Wrath, continued into the Second Age with not so gradual submersion, and was completed to the extent it wasn't finished earlier by the effects from the drowning of Numenor. Perhaps the destruction of Thangorodrim and Angband, along with general devastation from the War, began the job. Don't know the proper geological terms, but the destruction of Angband and the surrounding area probably caused the lands to begin to sag and become submerged. I think it occured quickly but not so fast that the elves, men and dwarves couldn't evacuate or move to safer ground.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Orald
01-08-2001, 01:13 PM
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Re: The drowning of Beleriand

If Beleriand was not entirely beneath the sea what would stop people from staying there? Why wouldn't some of the inhabitants of Beleriand just stay on the pieces of land still above the sea instead of moving to Eriador or Mithlond?

So I guess I agree to some extent with Mithadan, but I am not quite sure how long he thinks the drowning of Beleriand lasted into the Second Age.

</p>

Mithadan
01-08-2001, 02:39 PM
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Re: The drowning of Beleriand

Only because a catastrophic distruction of Beleriand would have killed not only the elves, men and dwarves living there but also some portion of the army of Vanyar who had come to support the War (my recollection is that Noldor were not allowed to go and Teleri declined to do more than provide and man ships). While its unclear what actually happened in the War of Wrath, from the meager information we have, it appears to have been primarily a conflict involving &quot;conventional&quot; weapons, rather than battles of lightning bolts and mountains being hurled through the air. Perhaps Morgoth had strength to cause earthquakes or make faults open to prevent the movement of forces, but otherwise, the War seems to not have been (primarily) &quot;supernatural&quot; in nature. Thus I feel the destruction and submersion of Beleriand was, more or less, &quot;gradual&quot;.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Orald
01-08-2001, 09:14 PM
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Re: The drowning of Beleriand

Perhaps Morgoth used the mines and tunnels that ran far under Angband to hinder the movements of the hosts of the west by flooding them and collapsing them. But it has to be noted that Morgoth created the Misty Mountains to keep Orome from riding across ME. So although the actual battle may not have been &quot;'supernatural' in nature&quot; most of the destruction of Beleriand must have been done by some &quot;supernatural&quot; power probably from the valar and maiar.

There, I think I said what I wanted to.

</p>

lindil
01-08-2001, 11:31 PM
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Re: The drowning of Beleriand

I read somewhere in HoME a few days ago [sorry I forgot where<img src=frown.gif ALT=":("> ] that Pelagir was on the coast at the time of the numenorean founding , but that the destruction of numenor filled in 70 [?] or so miles of the bay of Belfalas
and left it well inland on the anduin instead of at the mouth. If this is a later conception [and I think it may have been in XII [peoples of ME] then a similar destruction {or construction if you will} was taking place toward the end of the second age. Numenor seems to have been ultra- temperate w/out being tropical [somewhat like San Francisco here I woud guess] and being so as part of the reward 'package' ,while JRRT clearly had northwestern europe in mind for eriador, [ and i would hazard to guees that the was shire relatively snow free due to some kind of gulf stream and proximity to the ocean]. as for the Numenorean ship wreath , I thought the shock of it's freezing was from thegrace of the Valar seen as having been withdrawn not due to the weather . Were not the Numenoreans sailors extrodinaire NORTH, east, south all but but West [till the Akallabeth] ?

Lindil

</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
01-09-2001, 02:30 AM
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Re: The drowning of Beleriand

I would have thought that after the War of Wrath and the Great Battle, water began to flood in from the coasts slowly at first but then becoming quicker in a few months (as no-one seems to have been drowned by the Ruin of Beleriand). True, Lindon was further eroded and warped by the Akallabeth.
I think that the initial flood of the sea was very great at first, but then slowed down as the water calmed. The small isle of of Himring west of Lindon was the hill of Himring; it was covered by water but then 'rose again'. Same goes for the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin; they were drowned but rose again after the initial flood had slowed down.

The Akallabeth, apart from making the Gulf of Lune and changing the course of the Lhun, generally eroded the West coasts of Middle-Earth. 'For Illuvitar cast back the the Great Sea West of Middle-Earth, and into the Empty Lands East of it'. Then new lands and seas were created. The East coasts, I presume, were more warped and changed by the floods than destroyed by them.

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Saulotus
01-09-2001, 04:32 AM
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Re: The drowning of Beleriand

I won't address specific points here since so many are incorrect, especially in your second paragraph.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus</A> at: 1/9/01 5:33:11 am

Child of the 7th Age
07-14-2002, 10:20 PM
I am pulling this thread up to the top of the heap because Piosenniel asked a similar question, but didn't get too many answers.

Will read it over tomorrow and think about what's said here.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit