Is Immortality really that bad?

[willkill4food]

I was having a talk with a friend (who is a Tolkien fan, loves the movies and has read the books once or twice, but not a fanatic) a little bit ago, while we were watching TTT, and he said something about how cool it would be to be an elf, live forever, be a great warrior, speak elvish, write poetry, sing songs, live in Rivendell or Lothlorien...and so i tried to bring up the point that Tolkien makes, that the Elves are forever tied to this earth, their spirit never leaves, they are stuck in there even after they die, no heaven, no nothing...but as we argued for a little while, I realized that I was really playing Devil's advocate, I want to be an elf, I dont want to die, I dont want to get old, I want to live until slain in battle, and then maybe even get sent back (ie Glorfindel)...

And so I bring of this question....is their any question of which is better, Mortality versus Immortality? Sure Immortality has a few drawbacks, but really "Mortality Sucks"...

Is there anyone here who would rather be Edain than Eldar? Rather go to the halls of Mandos than go to the Undying Lands or even stay in Middle-Earth?

Tolkien tries to make some arguement of how in some ways Men have it better, but it really falls on deaf ears, both in Numenor and to the readers.

Any comments?

-willkill

[Scott]

Howdy/Suilad/Whatever,
Well, really I haven't thought too much on this topic since I've read the Silmarillion last (and stopped watching the tv series Highlander), but I think that Tolkien makes it pretty clear that the race of men have it the best. At times, I would have to think that the race of men were shafted, but then again, I see Tolkien's points. If you think about it, how in the world could a being keep itself entertained forever? I can hardly keep myself entertained for the span of an hour some days. Plus, the only way elves leave the world they are bound to is by a slaughtering (physically implimented death), or by becoming drowned out by their own overabundance of sorrow. I don't know about anyone else, but that just plain sucks to me.

[Numenorean]

Hi Will, interestin' question you pose here.
As things stand with our state of mortality, being lucky if we hit the big 100, I reckon Elvish imortality is very tempting to wish for, it sounds too tempting though, so I'd have to decline and choose the fate of the Edain.
I like JRRTs idea of Human lifespan before the 1st Fall of Men, where it was rumoured that we would live as near imortals until we weary of the World and then pass beyond its circles. It was basically imortality with a mortal get-out clause, the best of both worlds! But of course we had to ruin all that with some foolish Melkor worship and get less years on Arda than we (possibly) deserve. Lets just hope there isn't a 3rd Fall of Men in the near future...

[Iris Alantiel]

Hi everyone!

This is a really interesting question. I think basically everybody wants what they do not or cannot have. To all us "mortal men doomed to die" immortality might sound pretty attractive, especially if we don't know what lies beyond death; but then from the elves' perspective, it doesn't sound like such a sweet deal. My impression was that Tolkien, rather than preferring one scenario over another, simply highlights the good and bad aspects of both. He points out the ways in which men have it better, but at the same time he also highlights the good sides of Elvish immortality, too. I mean, would it be such a big deal for Arwen or Luthien to give up their immortality to be with Aragorn/Beren if immortality was so awful anyway?

As far as I'm concerned, I can definitely see the attraction of being immortal, but then, give me a few centuries and I might change my mind.

Btw, if anyone is really interested in the idea of immortality and how it might actually be worse than mortality, Tennyson does a really great poem related to the subject called 'Tithonus'. It's worth checking out.

[Balin999]

I for my part don't want to be immortal. Where are the advantages? I guess you get so tired of the world after some thousand years. You lose countless friends who are not immortal, and I guess after some time you understand that everything is more or less the same.

But something that made me think in willkill's post was the line with "how cool it would be to be a great warrior".
Do you really think it is THAT entertaining to be on war? See your friends die, kill your opponents, get hurt, see slaughtered people lying around, and much more? Maybe you should ask some veterans of World War II or some soldiers in Iraq if they thought that being a warrior was "cool". (I guess you never had to do military service.)
I never want to be on war, be it in Middle-Earth or in real life. Just my opinion, though.

[Ainaserkewen]

Immortality would give a very different perspective on life itself. We have no idea what it would be like to be immortal. We only have books and movies and fantasies to play off of. Elvish immortality I think wouldn't be so bad...at least the way Tolkien puts it. If you were an elf and you lived in a mortal world(aka Middle-Earth) you'd get pretty sick of it. Like a giant loop-de-loop, things repeating themselves in an endless spiral. But that's what the Undying lands are for. I imagine that wouldn't be bad at all. However, I would still chose mortality in today's day and age at least, because I believe that life after death is so fantastically wonderful, and if you're immortal you would never get to it.
Though I do think being an elf would be really great, don't you agree?

[The Saucepan Man]

Being immortal in this day and age would involve working for eternity. smilies/eek.gif smilies/frown.gif

Either that or a very good pension plan. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lord of Angmar]

Being immortal in this day and age would involve working for eternity.

Quite true, sadly. smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

I would say, Will, that there are drawbacks and advantages to being immortal, just as there are to being mortal (the obvious drawback of which is, well, mortality).

[Angry Hill Troll]

Are you the type of person who enjoys watching a sporting event all the way through, even after it becomes apparent that your team is going to lose?

Allow me to explain. Tolkien viewed the history of Arda (and perhaps to an extent the real world) as the Long Defeat, in which things tend to run continually downhill, albeit with brief periods of advancement.

Here ends the Silmarillion . If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

Watching this story unfold might become tiresome after a while...

I think the issue of whether obligatory immortality is a desirable thing is partly a question of whether one believes the future is likely to be "better" (according to whatever measure one whishes to use) than the past.

[THE Ka]

I can't really say it is all that bad in a way. I mean, you get to see the fall of empires! the building of new ones! . And your memory will be the best damn history book around!

But, i can see a down fall. Madness. clearly said.

[Lord Elrond]

I agree with saucepan man. In today's day and age I would not want to live forever. In Tolkiens world maybe however I think I would still prefer to have the life of a Numenorean. Long life but not immortality.

[lindil]

Keep in mind that the Elves were only provisionally immortal, that is to say they were to live in the M-E or Valinor until the end of time. But at that point, they really had to trust in Eru, because what comes after was unclear. In traditional faery/elf lore the Elves are said to live till the last judgement but have no souls. Tolkien was weaving a variation of this thread.

Men on the other hand are [both in JJRT's own religion and within Arda] immortal. But in spirit not in body.

Thus for men or Elves, there is no easy escape from self or the reward earned by one's actions. It is just a question of where you will be spending the next unknown thousands of years. On M-E/Valinor or as is the case with Men, gathered to Eru, but in a fashion never made clear.

Personally I would opt for the upfront immortality, but I would also have probably been one of the hot-headed Noldor who would have gotten himslef killed rather early on in Beleriand and had to chill for a while in mandos, possibly with a surly Feanor pacing eternally in the cell next to door...

Seriously, there are so many things I find fascinating and would love to master, the idea of having a few thousand years being approximately 30 sounds pretty good, but we must play the hand we are dealt...

[ 1:41 AM November 27, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Immorality is bad...

Ooops.

[Jack]

All interesting points... I think I would like to be an elf, than again i like the Rohirrim (<sp?). I am torn between two worlds.


I am going to go with Mortal... (Goodbye Lothlorien, *sniff*)

Forever the only Jack

[ 11:54 PM November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Jack ]

[Finwe]

Either that or a very good pension plan.

Now you've almost persuaded me to agree with immortality! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif

Immortality sounds fine and good when you're reading about it in books just as war does. For example, we always love reading about and watching those dramatic last-stand charges (i.e. the Rohirrim riding to Minas Tirith), but we just don't realize that it isn't all drama and courage. There is raw, debilitating, fear there. The reason that warriors/soldiers are truly heroes is that they have overcome their fear or have figured out how to deal with it on the battlefield. Much of what we think of war is an illusion, and so is what we think about immortality. Would you honestly watch everyone you ever loved slowly fade, age, and die? If there was anything that you could do to prevent their death or ease it, would you want to live with that realization for eternity, after their death? I know that I certainly wouldn't. Immortality sounds wonderful, but there's also a reason why more and more countries and states are adopting sentences for life instead of the death penalty.

[willkill4food]

But something that made me think in willkill's post was the line with "how cool it would be to be a great warrior".
Do you really think it is THAT entertaining to be on war? See your friends die, kill your opponents, get hurt, see slaughtered people lying around, and much more? Maybe you should ask some veterans of World War II or some soldiers in Iraq if they thought that being a warrior was "cool". (I guess you never had to do military service.)
I never want to be on war, be it in Middle-Earth or in real life.

I really didnt mean to highlight war is one of the advantages of being an elf. Just one cannot really talk about Elves in Tolkien's world without mention of the fighting and battle they had with evil. The great warrior reference was just a reference to the fact that throughout the Silmarillion, almost all of the great deeds are done by Elves, whether it is in battle or in forging the Silmarillions themselves. And as a whole I think of Elves as better warriors (as Hurin/Huor said to Turgon, they can wait around forever waiting for battle while men cannot) and I cant help but envy the glory that Elves going to battle have, whether it is Turgon appearing with 10,000 Elves in shining armor, or Gil-Galad marching into Mordor with a host of Elves and Men.

And as for my view on Elves, as I was introduced into ME through LotR, my view of Elves still is mostly based on the points of view from LotR. In these books Elves are looked at with awe, almost every Elven character in LotR is a great character, wise, strong, fair and that has left a lasting impression on me that when I did find out about the evil deeds the elves had done, and the down side to their way of life, I still cannot think of them in the same light that I think of Men in Tolkein's world.

And though it may just be that immortality seems great to the mortal, I feel as though I would much rather be forced to live forever on a marred Arda than to grow old and die and leave my judgement up to Eru. I dont see myself getting bored of ME, and even if I did, there is always the grey havens...

-willkill

[Frodo2968thewhite]

This question has been on my mind for a LONG time, and each choice has it's ups and downs. I think that if I was indeed an elf, I'd probably kill myself after the first, oh, couple thousand years. But I would NEVER want to be a valar because, no matter what, you will be alive. But all in all, mortality is better........wait.....well.....WHO KNOWS!?!?!?!?!

[Iris Alantiel]

I think one of the reasons why I have a difficult time entirely accepting the argument that immortality is entirely a bad thing is because of relationships like that of Arwen and Aragorn or Beren and Luthien, in which someone who is immortal gives up that immortality in order to be with the one they love. As an expression of love, it kind of loses its specialness if the person who forfeits their immortality is thinking, "Oh well, I don't really want to live forever anyway".

Now I've always gotten the impression that, especially since Tolkien related himself and his wife to Beren and Luthien, that this whole giving-up-of-immortality-for-love idea is a very powerful and special expression of devotion (and please correct me if I'm wrong). So immortality has to be at least worth something, as far as I can figure. Otherwise, if it's such a curse, what's so special about forfeiting it?

[Imladris]

My humble opinion is this: it would be better to be mortal. When you're mortal, you can escape this dreary world (be it ME or this world). ME was based on this world, since it is a mythology, so it isn't all good there, even with Sauron out of the picture. Can you imagine being stuck there? I would weary of life, even if I was in a good situation.

Humans were made to die, just as elves were made to be immortal. I think I heard/read somewhere that elves also tired of Middle-earth and that was why they left for the Valinor, a sort of heaven for them, I suppose. And in heaven, everything is good. It's a very nice way to "die" for them, I suppose.

[Jjudvven]

It is said that many elves eventually tire of middle earth and sail. I would much rather be human and face death though. I can't imagine what it would be like to know that you might be stuck living forever and not enjoying every bit of it. For me, that would be very bad.

[Finwe]

In a sense, the Elves' leaving Middle-earth was akin to dying. Think about it. They always wanted to be able to leave Middle-earth, and not be bound to it, in the same way that Men were given freedom. The Elves were ultimately allowed to set sail West so that they could leave their past life in Middle-earth behind, and be healed of their wounds (both physical and emotional). That was their only way of escape, and if they were that desperate, then I think that they probably wished to be mortal, just so they wouldn't be bound to Middle-earth forever.

[Northman]

Mortality is probably best. But i think I would wanna be a dwarf. Dwarves are really long lived but eventually they die.

[Firefoot]

I think I would probably want to be Half-elven. Then I could choose...even if you chose mortality the half-elven have a much longer span of life than mortal men. You would also have the option of being immortal and sailing away to Valinor once you wearied of ME. If I had to pick between immortality or mortality though I would probably pick mortality. I really probably wouldn't want to live on either in ME or in today's world.
BTW, how exactly does the Halls of Mandos work?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:14 AM December 06, 2003: Message edited by: Firefoot ] Never mind that part about the Halls of Mandos. I'm not sure that belongs in this thread but someone mentioned it in a previous post. Anyway I found a previous thread about it when I did a search.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:16 AM December 06, 2003: Message edited by: Firefoot ]

[Kalimac]

This is fascinating - the Curse of Immortality is a big theme in fantasy (I remember reading "Tuck Everlasting" at the age of seven and being terrified at the prospect of living unchanged forever). The immediately obvious drawback to immortality, even if you're an Elf, is that quite a number of your friends and acquaintances (hobbits, Men) are not immortal - imagine what it would be like to watch literally hundreds of generations be born, have children, die and so forth. The people with whom you spent your youth will have gone on to the afterlife, and you'll be left behind. Then there's the cyclical nature of history - another war, another battle, yet again, the same mistakes you witnessed two thousand years ago being repeated as the new generations of mortals have to learn their way about. Isildur had a bad time, and died young and painfully, but didn't Elrond in a way have the rawer deal? He had to live on and see the generations of Isildur's descendants sinking, see Sauron rise again, and watch Middle Earth almost destroy itself yet again.

Elrond and the other Elves could manage this, and their characters must have been innately much stronger than those of mortal men. Supposing there was an opposite choice - for example, if Aragorn became immortal by marrying Arwen - how many men, even of Aragorn's stature, would have the strength of character just to *last* that long and not simply fade away from depression or grief? Not to mention the knowledge that all of their mortal companions would eventually pass beyond the rim of the world, while they'd be left behind.

So in short - I don't think men could handle immortality after a while. And while the old joke about how "everyone wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die" is true enough, I think most people would rather use the dying route than the one the Elves take.

[Eggy]

I think having the choice would be nice, but to live forever i dont know about that. To watch age after age pass by like minutes on a clock..
Forever is a very long time, I think in the end even living in bliss in the undieing land would become a hell of its own.
No matter how nice the cage is(ie immortaliy) it is still a cage.
In the end I think I would just die of grief!!

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

I think someone said this earlier, but I think that it is better to live a couple of hundred yeasrs, then die. However, I would not want to be a dwarf, and probably not a Numenorean. Hobbits have it good, at least the wealthy ones: Bilbo did not have to work, as far as I know, an lived to be, what, 100 something? The main problem with being mortal is that you spend so much of your time working, you feel that you should have longer to enjoy yourself. We think that 'too much is better than too little'.
Thus, being a rich hobbit is the best option I can see in ME. In real life, it is best to be human. smilies/wink.gif

But immortality is not for me.

[Secret Fire]

We have to remember, however, that the elves were made to live in the undying lands, never to feel pain or despair and that while they were with their kin, nothing would die, so everything would just get more beautiful. So, in a sense, the Elves were made to live in an Eden like paradise, which wouldn not be bad at all, living in eternal bliss, but they decided that they wanted to go to Middle Earth because Melkor told them that the Valar were holding out on them. So, an immortal living in a mortal world would be bad as well as a mortal in an immortal world. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Maédhros]

We have to remember, however, that the elves were made to live in the undying lands, never to feel pain or despair and that while they were with their kin, nothing would die, so everything would just get more beautiful.
Why do you say that?

[Finwe]

Where did you get that from?


We know for a fact that Elves are an extremely strong race and can endure hardships. Just look at the Crossing of the Helcaraxë (from The Silmarillion). If THAT didn't take strength, then I don't know what will.


And he and his host wandered long in misery, but their valour and endurance grew with hardship; for they were a mighty people, the elder children undying of Eru Iluvatar, but new-come from the Blessed Realm, nd not yet weary with the weariness of Earth. The fire of their hearts was young, and led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Finrod and Galadriel, they dared to pass into the bitterest North; and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxë and the cruel hills of ice. Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe.


(The Silmarillion)


"I thought I saw a white figure that shone and did no grow dim lik the others. Was that Glorfindel then?"

"Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."


(Fellowship of the Ring)

Ergo, Elves are much stronger than you think they are, especially those who have seen the Light of the Two Trees of Aman.