Revelations and Realizations

[galadriel'smaiden]

Recently, I figured out that Luthien Tunuviel was Legolas's aunt!!! Geaneaology is as follows-

Thingol father of Tunuviel and Thranduil

Thranduil father of Lefolas Greenleaf

Neato.

Have u figured something interesting out?:smokin:

[ainur]

Actually, Thranduil's father was named Oropher. I don't know much about him or his ancestry, but I know he died in the battle of the Last Alliance. It's possible he was originally from Doriath, but that would not necessarily make him a relative of Thingol. I'm not sure, but I doubt it. Galadriel and Celeborn, I think, would have been more familiar with Legolas if he was that close to the house of Elwe, considering their own history in Doriath.

[Finwe]

Oropher could have been of the House of Elwë, we don't know for sure. All we know is that he came over with the "wave" of Sindarin immigrants before the year II 1000. We don't hear anything about him in the First Age, so that suggests (but doesn't prove) that he was born early in the Second Age.

[The Mushroom]

Have u figured something interesting out?
Oh yeah! My sister and I just love looking through the geneologies! We've decided that Elrond Halfelven is a misnomer since he's actually 9/16 elven!:D Hehehe!

[galadriel'smaiden]

Oops. My bad. ;)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Of course, the really amusing and interesting piece of genealogical history is that Galadriel is Elrond's mother-in-law, and therefore Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir's maternal grandmother. Small wonder, then, that she takes such an interest in Aragorn when he passes through her country.

I didn't really work this out, since it's right there in the text, but that sort of familial tie between these two commanding figures among the Wise does make me wonder what those White Council meetings were really like. Along with Gandalf's casual baiting of Saruman, I wonder if Elrond was ever told that Celebrían could have done better for herself or that he was a feckless wastrel.

Yes, this is just an excuse to use the new smiley. :smokin:

[Finwe]

Of course, Elrond would also be asked if that feckless wastrel of a foster-son of his was King yet.

:smokin:

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

;)

What follows is something extremely sensitive to my imaginations...

Elendil is a direct decendent of the line of Elros, brother of Elrond half-elven.

Aragorn son of Arathorn II is a direct decendent of Elendil. It follows therefore that Elrond half-elven can be considered as Aragorn's great-great....(multiply with some number between 20 to 40) grand Uncle.

So, Arwen Evenstar is Elrond's daughter, and Aragorn's great-great... (multiply with some number between 20 to 40 minus 1) grand Aunt... :rolleyes:

Gee, before anyone come after me with some firebrand, I would like to mention that majority, if not all of their ancestors are related anyway from the beginning... note: Luthien and some guy... I have not checked the exact family tree yet... but this assumation I think stands to reason, since Prof T likes to his royalty bloodlines to be PURE.

Ah! Just laugh it off! :D

[Firefoot]

Wait, shouldn't Arwen be Aragorn's cousin several times removed or something? She's the daughter of his great-great-great.......great uncle, so wouldn't that make them cousins? Also, it's more than forty times removed - I just counted, and from Elendil Aragorn is the 41st. If someone else wants to figure it out I have Elros, Vardamir Nolimon, Tar-Amandil, Tar-Elendil, Silmarien, Valandil, ..., Amandil, Elendil, 40 people, Aragorn. I don't know who is between Valandil and Amandil.

And I thought I was the only one who enjoyed figuring weird stuff like this out. It's nice to know you're not alone.:p

[Finwe]

There must be a list of the Lords of Andunië somewhere. If I'm not mistaken, isn't there a list in the Appendices?

[Noxomanus]

Originally posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
I didn't really work this out, since it's right there in the text, but that sort of familial tie between these two commanding figures among the Wise does make me wonder what those White Council meetings were really like. Along with Gandalf's casual baiting of Saruman, I wonder if Elrond was ever told that Celebrían could have done better for herself or that he was a feckless wastrel.
[/B]

Add to that Radagast was probably daydreaming during the meetings of the Council and you can understand why they didn't do THAT much!

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Hmm... I think I am missing a point... Arwen is one generation removed from Elrond, While Aragorn is erm... generations removed from Elros... So doesn't that make them Aunt and nephew??? :D

[Firefoot]

No, I'm pretty sure they are cousins. Elrond and Elros were brothers (duh), which would make their kids, Arwen and Vardamir, cousins. That would make Vardamir's kid (Tar-Amandil) 1st cousin once removed to Arwen. So then you take that down many generations and you get 1st cousin many times removed.:D

My way to prove this is the "Took of Great Smials" Hobbit family tree in the Appendices. Frodo and Bilbo are 1st cousins once removed. If you replace Elrond with Belladonna, Arwen with Bilbo, Elros with Mirabella, Vardamir with Primula, and Tar-Amandil with Frodo, you have exactly the same scenario.

I have way too much time on my hands to figure this out.:rolleyes: :D

[zb]

This is plain to see in family tree III in the Sil., so I can't claim to have cleverly figured it out:

Elrond & Elros' mother, Elwing, is the daughter of Dior. Dior is the son of Beren. Beren is the son of Barahir.
Barahir's brother, Bregolas, is the father of Belegund, who is the father of Rian, who is the mother of Tuor, who is the father of Earendil. Who, of course, is the husband of Elwing, and the father of Elrond and Elros.

Which means that Elwing and Earendil share a great-great- and great-great-great-grandfather, respectively.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It seems to me that the intense interest in geneologies here shows that many of our members must be descendants of Hobbits! ;)

[Anarion]

Something interesting is about a ring which one of Aragorn's ancestors received in the First Age from from an ancestor of Arwen's who was Elven High King. This ring came down through Ages to Aragorn, who finally presents it to Arwen(upon betrothal).

[Finwe]

You're talking about the Ring of Barahir (which was given to him by Finrod, the brother of Galadriel, who was Arwen's grandmother). I think it was a fitting sign of Aragorn's love.

[Kransha]

Well, I'll just mention something I learned the other day.

Remember Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth.

Here's a weird geneological tidbit about this guy. His sister was Finduilas, wife of Denethor and mother of Boromir and Faramir. Now, Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel apparently married King Eomer of the Mark after the WR. Now, Eomer is Eowyn's brother, Eowyn married Faramir, who is the step-nephew of Imrahil.

Once you put 2 and 2 together, you realize:
Imrahil is Eomer's step-father and step-uncle. Weird.

[Finwe]

Umm... no...

Faramir is Imrahil's nephew, which makes Eowyn Imrahil's niece-in-law. I suppose this would make Eomer Imrahil's nephew-in-law, or something like that.

On the other side, Imrahil would be Eomer's father-in-law.


That is actually quite a normal occurrence for noble families like that of Eomer and that of Imrahil. Often, families living in generally the same area had more than one marriage tie.

[Kransha]

Well, I'm half right. I just had a preverbial brain lapse and mized up step- and -in-law. *slaps self with Grond in annoyance* Just remove the step- addition to all relationships and add -in-law in their place. I think that works....somewhat.

[HerenIstarion]

Is there such a thing as 'uncle-in-law'?

[Anarion]

In the first book, which feels like it's written in a different voice than the others, to me; the Hobbits are in several exciting and magical adventures before they approach Rivendell. One of them is in the woods of the neglected character(in the movie), Tom Bombadil. After being rescued by Tom from trees with dangerous minds, the Hobbits, as guests in his house, become acquainted with Goldberry. To me, she is one of the most enchanting characters in the entire story. The chapter is bursting with the kind of colorful imagery for which the books of Tolkien are reknowned, and it centers as much around Goldberry as it does Tom. Having rarely seen her name in posts or discussions relating to thematic concepts of Tolkien and in lieu of starting an independent thread, I post here because whenever I recall the scenes of that chapter in my mind, it fills me with revelation, fondness and wonder.

[Elianna]

How about this one:
Lúthien is Fëanor's half-cousin-in-law (Fëanor's half-bother's wife's father's brother's daughter).
Oh! And Galadriel is Lúthien 1st cousin once removed (Galadriel's mother's father's brother's daughter), and she's Thingol's great niece (Thingol's brother's daugther's daughter). Hm, Celeborn's Thingol's great nephew too, so is Celebrían her own great great cousin?

How many times removed a cousin was Aragorn to Boromir and Faramir?

I wonder: if you guys like this, if you'll like my "Lore of the 5 Hobbits Rings of Power"…

[symestreem]

I don't know if Aragorn was a cousin to Boromir and Faramir. The Stewards were descended from a noble Numenorean family, but not necessarily one related to the royal line.

[InklingElf]

yes...I was wondering about that myself. I do not nessecarily own a complete geneology of the Gondorian line, but perhaps (if someone can check) if Boromir and Faramir have some sort of familial connection to the House of Isildur?

[Elianna]

I found in App. A that the Stewards, after King Minardil, were descendants of Húrin of Emyn Arnen, who was "a man of high Númenorean race". Don't think he was related to the kings though.

[Anarion]

Turin Turumbar, Tuor's cousin, would be Arwen's great grand uncle(once removed). Tuor is her great grand dad.
Tuor - Earendil - Elrond - Arwen.

[Garulf]

I think the whole point of the relation of Aragorn to Arwen (1st cousin ? times removed) was that the royal line that was split when Luthien married a mortal (forgot his name) became pure again. I just read something about that in the appendices about elf-mortal marraiges (appendix a if you are interested). So by marrying his distant relative, of the other line, Aragorn united the two lines. Does that make sense?

[symestreem]

Actually, Aragorn's marriage to Arwen united the lines of Elros and Elrond. Elros and Elrond themselves were born of a union that united the half-elven lines begun with Luthien's marriage to Beren and Idril's marriage to Tuor. So when the appendices says united the long sundered lines of the half-elven, it's referring to the half-elven Elros and Elrond (who, as the Mushroom pointed out, are actually 9/16 elven :) ).

[Gorwingel]

Wow! I have found out something interesting, just from this thread! This is all absolutely amazing. I always get kind of confused when I get to the family trees in the end, and many times I don't really pay attention. But it is very cool as many have said the way that these groups have been marrying is very similar to the royal families of Europe in many ways.

Well at least with Elrond being 9/16 elven. It gives him a very good reason to be elven, but then there is his brother... :)

[Lobelia]

Ooh, this thread is fun! :) Well, think about this: Boromir and Faramir have at least as much Elvish ancestry as Aragorn - and their Elvish ancestress might still be alive, unlike Luthien. We don't know. If you remember, it says somewhere in the Appendices that an ancestor of Imrahil, Boromir and Faramir's uncle( brother to their Mum), married one of Nimrodel's ladies-in-waiting, who wandered into his kingdom, married, had a baby and, flighty being that she was, abandoned husband and baby and wandered off again. So, what do you expect from someone who hung around with Nimrodel? :D (Probably because it would be extremely embarrassing for poor Imrahil to have to introduce his distant ancestress to all and sundry or to have to listen to her advice...) Of course, we don't get the lady's genealogy, so if she had any other descendants or if any of her ancestors were related to Aragorn's ancestors, we don't know. Well, I don't, not having yet read the complete HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH.

[lindil]

Well, think about this: Boromir and Faramir have at least as much Elvish ancestry as Aragorn

Very unlikely. Aragorn's Elvish strain would be continually re-inforced by his anscestors marrying alm0st exsclusively amongst the 'noble-born' in Numenor and Arnor. The line of the Stewards, though almost purely 'Numenorean' would still have far less of the Elvish strain than the royal family of Arnor. Arwen not yet being added in either.

Yes, this is just an excuse to use the new smiley. :smokin: Yes I clicked that one on my first post in the new format too! Kinda looks like a playmobile 'Bounder' .

I remember I was struck by the thousands of years involved in the Half-Elven--> Aragorn lineage. I doubt if too many families have kept that sort of track, ever for thousands of years. Maybe some Levitical families amongst the ultra-conservative Jews ...
and a cursory review of the above posters brought to my attention that Inkling Elf is a dweller in The City.

have you checked out the Northern California Downers thread? We are long past due for a get together.

[Guinevere]

...united the long sundered lines of the half-elven.

Looking at the genealogies, I noticed that in Elrond (and Elros) the lines of all the Elven houses (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar) come together as well as the lines of all 3 houses of the Edain (Beor, Hador, Haleth) (plus the Maia strain from Melian) And in Arwen, there is in addition the line of the Teleri of Aman (through her mother Celebrian)
I'm sure this is no coincidence!
Because of Arwen's marriage to Aragorn the inheritance of all this nobility will live on in Men.
As Tolkien wrote in letter #144...the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men) , and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to "nobility".

[doug*platypus]

Nice work, Guinevere. I had not really noticed about the three houses of the Eldar being combined in Elrond and Elros, although I had noticed that important Noldor had married Sindar, Teleri and Vanyar. The divine race of Melian coming through to the line of Kings through Elros is indeed an important point in Tolkien's genealogy.

Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all!

Care to explain how the House of Haleth got washed into the gene pool of Elrond and Elros?

[Lobelia]

[QUOTE=doug*platypus]
"Does this imply that one strain of nobility (the descendants of Elessar) is more fit to rule over humanity than any other, by right of its divine inheritance? Is this an allusion to the possible descendants of Jesus Christ? Or am I buying too much into conspiracy theories that say Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, but rather the wife of Christ? WHOA..... waaay off topic and probably not appropriate at all!"

Ooh, you ARE cheeky! :D That devout Catholic Tolkien must be spinning! I think it was probably enough for him that Aragorn was descended from kings - and the odd elf - without the goddess. He liked the notion of aristocracy and, with it, "noblesse oblige" - we see it right through LOTR. Can you name an aristocrat in the entire work who doesn't take his job as protector of the little people seriously? I can't. Aragorn has the right to rule through kingly descent, but he bloody well earns it!

Again, probably slightly off topic. What I mean is - Tolkien doesn't need any conspiracy theories or divine descent; nobility is plenty.

[Guinevere]

@Doug: I don't think that Tolkien in this letter used the word "nobility" in the sense of "aristocracy" , and giving the right to rule... I think he just meant nobility of the mind, and that some of the qualities of the Elves still live on in Men:The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aestethic, and purely scientific aspects of the Human nature (from letter 181)

About the descent from the House of Haleth: Halmir - Hareth (the wife of Galdor) - Huor - Earendil - Elrond

[Bêthberry]

Alas, Anarion, yes, Goldberry is one of those characters who seems simply to disappear off the radar after Frodo has his first experience of adoration with her. It was a sort of mini-revelation, though, I guess, and in her house Frodo does dream of the sea. Well, I guess she also gets to name him "elf-friend".

Still, a Persephone who is not in thrall to the Underworld raises all kinds of possibilities...

Bethberry

PS. Yes, I know, very tardy reply. The orcs of real life have that tendency to keep us away from middle-earth. ;)

[Firefoot]

Something I just realized while rereading RotK is that the Red Book of Westmarch has 80 chapters ("the 80th chapter was left unfinished...") and the number of combined chapters for LotR and the Hobbit is 80 - 18 in the Hobbit and 62 in LotR. It makes a lot of sense, actually, but I thought it was pretty cool the way JRRT tied it all in together.

[NightKnight]

About Arwen's heritage: Not only does she have blood from the three elven races (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar/Teleri (both)) and maia, she also has from all three houses of men: Bëor's house through Beren, Hador's house through Tuor and Haleth's house through Tuor's grandmother, Hareth. I actually calculated exactly how much it was from each, and I posted it somewhere in the ME Mirth forum. :p

[Carnimírië]

I must have read the poem that begins "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning" at least five times, but I just realized that it's written in alliterative verse. I had never noticed that before.

Maybe it takes a long time for me to understand things, but I also just realized that "Forgoil" (Strawheads) is a sort of blond joke, the dark-haired Dunlendings use that name on the yellow-haired Rohirram.

[galadriel'smaiden]

Wow. I should visit my own threads more often. :smokin: (smiley use excuse)

Kransha and Finwe-

Can we revisit the Faramir/Boromir/Imrahil thing? I am still way confused on thier relationship.

[Fingolfin II]

Imrahil's sister Finduilas is the mother of Faramir and Boromir- thus Imrahil is their uncle. He is also Eowyn's uncle-in-law (as she married Faramir).

Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel married Eomer, making Imrahil Eomer's father-in-law. Faramir is Eomer's brother-in-law, since he married his sister, Eowyn.

Here's a rough family tree below, including only Denethor, Faramir, Boromir, Imrahil, Lothiriel, Finduilas, Eomer and Eowyn. Oh, and it also contains Imrahil's father, Adrahil ;). Don't mind the dots- they're just there to space it out properly.

............................................Adrahi l
......................................._____|_____ _
......................................|........... .......|
..............................Imrahil............. Finduilas = Denethor
..................................|............... ............____|____
..................................|............... ...........|.............|
...........................Lothiriel = Eomer*..Boromir....Faramir = Eowyn*


*Denotes that Eomer and Eowyn are brother and sister.

[Bombadil]

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

[galadriel'smaiden]

Bombadil, there was a whole thread on that very subject in Middle Earth Mirth! I made it very uncool with one stupid post though...

[Bombadil]

Oops! :o How silly of me, I shall look it up!

[Lobelia]

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

Chuckle! Amusing idea, the mind boggles ... but I vaguely recall Frodo being told that what would have happened would be that Frodo would be stuck in Sauron's presence being tormented by having to watch Sauron wearing the Ring.

Or maybe he'd have set up house wioth Gollum. ;)

[Ardamir the Blessed]

'The Shibboleth of Fëanor', note 53: When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwe and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. [As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.]

[Aredhel]

Bombadil wrote:
I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

Yep, that would have been just a bit hillarious!
But consider this:
What if Aragorn had not been so strong, and had taken up carrying the Ring itself?
Or what if Aragorn's true lineage had come out earlier - and he had been the one stabbed? Certainly as a Nazgul he would have been formidable!
I shiver to think of the horror that would have followed. :eek:

[ninlaith]

I just want to send something out into the void. Most think that it was J.K Rowling who came up with the black cloaked deamons and certain phrases but it was really....wait can you guess...YES! It was Tolkien. Many think J.K's dementors inspired the ringwraiths.....please.....look at the years between the books publishings and who came first, we're talking decades here. And the phrase "Something wicked this way comes!" Yeah that was Tolkiens as well. J.K deserves credit for her accomplishments, however, it is possible for writers to be inspired by other writers.

[Guinevere]

I am sure no one in this forum would think that, ninlaith! ;)

"Something wicked this way comes!" I thought that was Shakespeare! (Macbeth)
And where in Tolkien's work did you find that phrase, pray ? :eek:

[Bombadil]

I believe that is Macbeth. Ironic it is too, for the witches say it about Macbeth. :D

[ninlaith]

oh don't get me wrong it was in that English play ,however, it was said by Sam in one of the last chapters of ROTK I can't remember for the life of me which but i remember thinking wait...that song in Harry Potter said that...sorry I just have alot of friends who like Harry Potter and choose to pick a fight about who was the better author and who said what first.......sorry. oh well everyone else wins i lose.

[Bombadil]

That's cool, I didn't know it was used in LOTR. Oi, I don't think you can compare the two authors. J.K. Rowling's books give me a different sort of thrill, one so different than what I get from Tolkien's books, it's easy to find those who are fans of one and not the other.

[ninlaith]

That's a very good point. I'll warrant there's only one person I know that doesn't like LOTR much but that's because he hasn't read the books yet. And basically that's what most people say but everyone else I know loves both. And they do spark different sort of enchantments on the mind.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

The phrase 'something wicked this way comes' is not in LOTR. I did a search.

[Lobelia]

I believe that is Macbeth. Ironic it is too, for the witches say it about Macbeth. :D

Quite right! To be precise, "By the pricking of my thumbs/Something wicked this way comes."

As for JKR and the phrase, it wasn't even in the novel, only part of a choral piece in the film, based on the Shakespeare text.

Tolkien didn't even LIKE Shakespeare and he felt right cheated by Macbeth, especially the Birnam Wood business, which, as we know, was one of the reasons for the Ents, i.e. what if Birnam Wood really did come to Dunsinane? I am quite sure he would have been offended at the notion that he had a character quote from the Bard! :D

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkien didn't even LIKE Shakespeare and he felt right cheated by Macbeth, especially the Birnam Wood business, which, as we know, was one of the reasons for the Ents, i.e. what if Birnam Wood really did come to Dunsinane?I am not sure that Tolkien had a wholesale dislike of Shakespeare, although the line from Macbeth which you refer to certainly irked him and was the inspiration for the Ents' march on Isengard.

Whatever feelings he may have had with regard to Shakespeare's works, however, it didn't stop him nicking and adapting for Aragorn the "All that glisters is not gold" line from Merchant of Venice. :p ;)

[ninlaith]

It's in there. I'm sure you read all three books word for word in the last 24 hours.

[Guinevere]

it didn't stop him nicking and adapting for Aragorn the "All that glisters is not gold" line from Merchant of Venice. Now that is just a common, widespread proverb, so you can't say Tolkien quoted Shakespeare when he used it! (and he turned it around: "all that is gold does not glitter"!)

And apropos the witches in Macbeth: in "On Fairy-stories" Tolkien wrote that he thought them tolerable when just reading the play, but on stage he didn't approve of them at all! (And he did write about Shakespeare "Which I disliked cordially" in letter 163)

I am quite sure he did not use that phrase! I'm fairly certain I would have noticed and not forgotten about it. (If I think of all the "proverbs" and wise sayings I collected... ;) Have a look at the quotable quotes, ninlaith, you can see that there are people here who do remember lots of sentences literally!)

[Lalaith]

Ninlaith, it is also quite easy to do a quick and comprehensive search of LotR if you have a pdf copy of it on your computer desktop...*whistles nonchalantly* ;)

[The Saucepan Man]

Now that is just a common, widespread proverb, so you can't say Tolkien quoted Shakespeare when he used it!I'm not saying that Shakespeare didn't nick it himself. ;)

Courtesy of Google:


"All that glitters is not gold" is from Parabolae, a book of poems written circa 1175 by Alanus de Insulis, a French monk: Non teneas aurum totum quod splendet ut aurum = "Do not hold as gold all that shines like gold". It was Englished [sic] by Chaucer in The Canterbury Tales (1389) as: "But al thyng which that shyneth as the gold /Nis nat gold, as that I have herd it told." (Shakespeare used the wording "All that glisters is not gold" in The Merchant of Venice; "glister", an archaic variant of "glisten", is still sometimes heard in allusion to this.)

[ninlaith]

so it would fit into his linguistic temperments he phrased it something wicked comes this way. why would i say it was in there if I hadn't seen something like it and I would know I would be dealing with people that knew about his writings as well. that would just be calling for dispute. But I'm done. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I lose everyone else wins.

[Bombadil]

Not to go off topic, but I've always wanted to start a thread comparing elements of Macbeth to the LOTR. Please let me know if there already have been discussons. one of the obvious main themes in Macbeth is "Fair is foul, and foul is fair." In the chapter Strider, it is said:

'I think one of his spies would-well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'

That's almost direct! But it's also seen in many instances in Tolkien's writings, i.e. when Morgoth deceives the Eldar in Aman, and when Sauron does the same to the Numenoreans. Deception is the name of the game. The idea of power bringing corruption is another theme of Macbeth, but one that had existed long before in stories like the Republic by Plato.

Had to throw that in there, but to get back on topic: My friend told me last night that Legolas was originally one of Gondolin? And that he saved Eärendil? If this information is true, it's kind of odd to look at the council of Elrond and know Elrond wouldn't be there if it weren't for that elf with the bow! :D

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Bombadil, here's a thread comparing LotR and Macbeth: Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=206)

As to Legolas of Gondolin, that appears to be a recycled name, since it cannot be the same person. For more information, please do a search using 'Legolas' and 'Gondolin' - you should find discussions by the experts there.

[Mithalwen]

To go back a little bit the linking between the Rohan royal family and the House of Dol Amroth is even more convoluted thing is even more convoluted since in addition to the first cousins Faramir and Lothiriel marrying the siblings Eowyn and Eomer which would have made their children first and second cousins!!! Eowyn and Eomer were already akin to Imrahil because their grandmother Morwen of Lossarnach was despite her title a descendent of a Prince of Dol Amroth. Maybe a sister or aunt of Adrahil married teh lord of Lossarnach ....... you just hope they opened this up a bit before the noble visages of the Swan princes were afflicted by a Hapsburg jaw.....

[ninlaith]

I realized something the other day. In Dante's Inferno there are 9 rings of Hell. There are 9 ring wraiths. Also in The Inferno when Dante went to met the big guy in the sky and the big JC and the mother their radiant light was so blinding and moving that it brought tears to his eyes. Much like Galadriel and Celebor's entrance. I just thought it was cool. They may not have anything to do with each other. It's just neat. :D

[Lobelia]

d:




Had to throw that in there, but to get back on topic: My friend told me last night that Legolas was originally one of Gondolin? And that he saved Eärendil? If this information is true, it's kind of odd to look at the council of Elrond and know Elrond wouldn't be there if it weren't for that elf with the bow! :D

I vaguely recall something about a Legolas in Gondolin ; my guess is that he just re-used the name and forgot he'd done it, but in one of the HOME books there was suggested a possibility of a reincarnation, since that's what happens to Elves who get killed. In this life, though, he's the son of the King of Mirkwood, and couldn't possibly have been in Gondolin.
;)

[Morsul the Dark]

my great discovery sam and rosie had 13 children

[InklingElf]

I just want to send something out into the void. Most think that it was J.K Rowling who came up with the black cloaked deamons and certain phrases but it was really....wait can you guess...YES! It was Tolkien. Many think J.K's dementors inspired the ringwraiths.....please.....look at the years between the books publishings and who came first, we're talking decades here. And the phrase "Something wicked this way comes!" Yeah that was Tolkiens as well. J.K deserves credit for her accomplishments, however, it is possible for writers to be inspired by other writers.

who is "most" ninlaith? I think alot of people -- well the ones who are time-concious esp. would disprove of such an idea.

To go back a little bit the linking between the Rohan royal family and the House of Dol Amroth is even more convoluted thing is even more convoluted since in addition to the first cousins Faramir and Lothiriel marrying the siblings Eowyn and Eomer which would have made their children first and second cousins!!! Eowyn and Eomer were already akin to Imrahil because their grandmother Morwen of Lossarnach was despite her title a descendent of a Prince of Dol Amroth. Maybe a sister or aunt of Adrahil married teh lord of Lossarnach ....... you just hope they opened this up a bit before the noble visages of the Swan princes were afflicted by a Hapsburg jaw.....

YES!