Just how stupid was Ar-Pharazon?

[Ar-Wilson the Mighty]

Hi, Im new to these forums although Ive been lurking for a while and Ive finally registered. Anyway Ive been wondering something-When Ar-Pharazon invaded Aman what did he really expect to happen? That he could stroll in, kill or enslave all the elves (considering that the army of the Numenoreans was strong enough) while the Valar just sat back and watched? I know he was paraniod of death and Sauron had been persuading him. But surely he could see no matter how blinded that if he went in there that he was going to get a mountain collapsed on him or something of that sort. Id like to hear you guys thoughts on this.

P.S. Ar-Pharazon and most of the Numenoreans would have known the history of the First Age and who Morgoth and Sauron were. (And also know that Morgoth and Saruon had a nasty habit of killing men.) So why did he even listen to him and worship Morgoth in the first place? (Saurons mind tricks aside.)

[burrahobbit]

If you eat the fruit of the trees of aman that grow on the strands of the shores of Eldamar you get to be immortal. He figured that if he did that he could take on the Valar.

[Finwe]

burra, where did you get that? I've never heard of that little tidbit of information before.

It is said that Ar-Pharazon began to feel the first "pulls" of old age while Sauron was in Numenor, and that was partially the reason why he listened to him so much. I'm assuming that by the time the invasion of Aman occurred, he was well into old age, and was desperate for immortality. The greatest of the delusions that most of the Numenoreans were laboring under was that if they lived in Aman, or partook of the produce of Aman, they would be immortal. That wasn't true. It was the immortal qualities of the people on Aman that made the land what it was, not the other way around. Of course, I don't think that was what Ar-Pharazon wanted to listen to.

[Evisse the Blue]

burra, where did you get that?
erm, I believe he was being sarcastic.:D

[Lyta_Underhill]

If you eat the fruit of the trees of aman that grow on the strands of the shores of Eldamar you get to be immortal. He figured that if he did that he could take on the Valar.
And Sauron was the tempting serpent, right? :D
Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. What would happen if someone ate a fruit from Laurelin or Telperion? Hmmmm....would we have a living Silmaril? ;)

[burrahobbit]

No, it's in HoME XIII, On The Flaura of Vinyamar. It is an essay that talks about the various plants that Turgon brought from Valinor. They made jelly and such out of these fruits the same was that lembas is made from a special corn that is also from across the sea.

[Maerbenn]

But burrahobbit, the 13th volume is the Index...

[the phantom]

This is what happenned when Ar-Pharazon confronted Sauron and his empire (from LOTR Appendix A)-
So great was the might and splendour of the Numenoreans that Sauron's own servants deserted him
AP probably thought "Well hey, if I can take Sauron prisoner without a fight why wouldn't I have a shot at his Ainu relatives?" Remember, he had a lot of back up (LOTR Appendix A)-
He prepared the greatest armament that the world had seen...
and then from the Silmarillion-
In that time the fleets of the Numenoreans darkened the sea upon the west of the land, and they were like an archipelago of a thousand isles; their masts were as a forest upon the mountains, and their sails like a brooding cloud...But the fleets of Ar-Pharazon came up out of the deeps of the sea and encompassed Avallone and all the isle of Eressea, and the Eldar mourned, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Numenoreans.
Ar-Pharazon believing that he could take Valinor doesn't sound so silly when you consider that he had a better shot at it than any other king in history.

[burrahobbit]

The is preposterous Maerbenn. My integrity is on the like here, and I expect that you will take that back right now.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Heh, all this talk about taking on the 'gods' reminds me very much of Feanor and his sons.

I guess Ar-Pharazon is really getting dotty by then. I mean, his father and grandfather had died earlier than their ancestors, and if you are faced with the prospect of dying anyway, why not go down fighting? Though I agree that he should have smelled a rat when Sauron did not come along with him...
:D

[Firefoot]

I don't think he was stupid, I think he was just listening to all the lies Sauron was telling him, and he had many of the same fears that many of the Numenoreans had at that time. He probably actually believed that if he went to Valinor he would be able to live forever. He didn't want to die, and he was getting pretty old, to about the age that people were dying. Even if he doubted that it would work, he probably figured he was going to die soon anyway and better atleast try to live longer than jsut letting himself die. He probably didn't care. And then you have Sauron whispering in his ear all of his deceits, and Ar-Pharazon did just about whatever Sauon said.

[Finwe]

You have a point, but I still think that Ar-Pharazon was just plain dotty to listen to Sauron like that. I mean, did that man have no shred of common sense, whatsoever? Apparently, he didn't!

[Nirvana II]

i read the silmarillion 8 times.....if pharazon ever knew what was good for him he would have jumped off the Meneltarma.....and marrying his cousin.......EEEEEEWWWWWWW!!!:rolleyes:

[Dininziliel]

Have you ever wanted that Butterfinger or Snickers when you knew you shouldn't eat it? Have you ever wanted someone's affection and desire so much you found yourself doing odd things to get it? Have you ever wanted a new car or dress or computer software so much you had to have it right now and so put yourself in debt for it?

Have we not got world leaders and groups of people today who seem to believe they can do anything they want to get what they want, no matter the costs or chance of success?

I agree with several of the previous posts--Ar-Pharazon, the most powerful (at least he had no reason to doubt it based on his track record) king in ME is seeing the end of his days approaching and listening to the subtle & logical lies of Sauron. I don't think Ar-Pharazon was ever noted for his great wisdom and powers of foresight, Numenorean though he was.

It doesn't matter whether he believed he could achieve his goal by eating anything or forcing the Valar to his will. (Although eating something wouldn't seem such a hard thing to do, would it? I can just see him visualizing the "archipelago" of armed ships behind him as he held out a sword in one hand, an apple in the other, and with one eye cocked at Manwe as he bit into a tomoato!) :)

He continued to act in accordance with what Tolkien called "the fall," that began with the Valar--which, if I understand it correctly, involves not trusting a higher power's power and plan as well as thinking one can usurp that higher power's power, however innocently (Aule) or not (Melkor).

Ar-Pharazon had absolute power in his neighborhood. He was afraid. He desired something very, very much. He listened to rationalizations. "Those who will not learn from history . . . "

[Findegil]

The history from which Ar-Pharazons could have learned was very old in his time. Think about it real-world analogues: What do we know for sure out of the time of the Greek-empire? We have some part of their mathematic that is still valid today. But otherwise, in how fare can any ruler of today base his decisions on the History of Alexander the great, even if he would rule in Greece?
The events told in The Silmarillion were legends for the people of Numenor. And the party of the Kings people did not believe in them completely. So that history was not a good counsellor (as was Sauron).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Firefoot]

I think that history can be a good counselor, if you use it right. Ever heard the saying "History repeats itself?" If Ar-Pharazon had paid attention to other's mistakes - pride, need to control - maybe he would not have made the same mistakes seeing the disastrous results. And surely he had heard stories about the Noldor, how Melkor had lied to them? It is actually very similar, and hearing the name Melkor come from Sauron's mouth should have put up red warning flags in his mind.

It was, I suppose, rather stupid of him not to pay any attention to history and listen to Sauron. I'm not saying he's stupid (Though he really isn't very smart either), just blinded by his desire for immortality and control. And Sauron's lies were subtle, and like Melkor before him, he probably wove lies and truth together so that Ar-Pharazon couldn't tell the difference.

Does it sound like I like him? I'm certainly trying to defend him well enough. I don't. In fact, he is one of my least favorite characters. Marrying his cousin and taking the throne wrongfully is pretty bad. Maybe I'm just enjoying playing devil's advocate.;)

[Numenorean]

Firefoot
If Ar-Pharazon had paid attention to other's mistakes - pride, need to control - maybe he would not have made the same mistakes
Pharazon may not have viewed 'others mistakes' as we do. To him what you describe as pride and the need to control, were probably things he viewed as assets, such was the depth of his nations spiritual corruption.
Was Pharzon stupid? I don't think so. A supremely arrogant Warmonger, definately. To blame his decisions solely on stupidity would fail to take into account the steady rise of the Shadow in Númenor over the 1000 or so years prior to Pharazon.

From the reign of Tar-Atanamir onwards there was a growing mindset amongst the Númenorean elite that rejected the Valar and embraced instead their own petty fears and wishes regarding death - the Gift of Eru.
By the onset of Pharazons rule - with the exception of Tar-Palantir and the Lords of Andunië - the Númenoreans spiritual and moral beliefs had been relentlessly erroded for over a millenia, paving the way for Sauron the Deceiver to masterfully play on their hopes and half imagined fears, as only Sauron could.

[symestreem]

Sauron was able to corrupt nine other kings to do what he wanted. I should think this one would be no different for him. The real question is, did Sauron actually think Ar-Pharazon could defeat the Valar (surely not) or was he just deceiving and manipulating the Numenoreans to bring about their downfall?
Also, why did the Eldar flee to Tuna when the Numenoreans arrived? A desire to avoid spilling blood in Aman more than had already happened?

[Finwe]

Sauron probably didn't know for a fact whether Ar-Pharazon would win. He just wanted to get back at the Numenoreans since they had the most powerful empire at that time. His main goal was to cause the corruption and destruction of Numenor. He definitely accomplished that, I'd say. Even if Ar-Pharazon attacked the Valar, Sauron didn't care. He knew that the Valar would have kicked Ar-Pharazon's butt eventually, and in the meantime, he could have completely taken over Numenor, and done what he wanted with it. That was his objective. For all he cared, Ar-Pharazon could go to bloody hell. It was Numenor and its power that he wanted.

[Firefoot]

I think that Sauron had to have known that Ar-Pharazon would lose. He had seen what the Valar did to Morgoth at the end of the 1st age, and Morgoth was a powerful Ainu. Ar Pharazon was just a mortal. Sauron led Ar-Pharazon to believe he could beat the Valar, but he was lying. You will note that he did not go with them to Valinor. He knew that they couldn't beat the Valar. He didn't think that they would react so violently and sink the entire island, but he did think that they would destroy the Numenoreans, and he would get what he wanted: power of Numenor, and to get back at the Numenoreans.For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in hte midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazon sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever,... But back to the original question, Ar-Pharazon was not stupid. He was blinded by his want for long life, and he liked what Sauron was telling him. It was the sort of thing that he wanted to be true, so he believed it. I think that he should have paid attention to the stories of the Noldor being tricked by Melkor, and surely he would have heard of how Sauron tricked the Elves by making the One Ring, and this I think was his greatest blunder: he was not wary enough of Sauron and his subtle lies.

[Finwe]

I don't think that looking back at what happened to the Noldor would have worked. By the time of Ar-Pharazon, the Elves were at the bottom of the hierarchy in Numenor. Just about everyone never mentioned them, so it would have taken some gumption to bring up what happened to the Elves in front of the king. Besides, Ar-Pharazon thought that he was stronger than the Elves, so what tempted them wouldn't have necessarily tempted him, at least in his mind.

[Nirvana II]

on the subject of Ar-Pharazon.....where would he go when he died on Akallabeth?????? Cause he was evil....in a way.......

Nirvana II:smokin:

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I don't think Ar-Pharazon died. He and his men were imprisoned until Dagor Dagorath, the last Battle.

But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom

So you might say that he got the 'Immortality' he wanted. :D

[The Perky Ent]

If the valar really hated him, they would of made him immortal, which they kinda did. So that way he would linger in a prizon for all of his life until Dooms Day

[Nirvana II]

funny nice,crispy hobbit..........but......has the world ended yet?:cool:



Nirvana II:smokin: