Windy...cold...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the West.

(The Silmarillion 20 - emphasis mine)

So...what was that all about? An "I told you so" from Manwë, perhaps?

[HerenIstarion]

perhaps

On the other hand, by night, as the air is warmer over the sea, it gets sucked unto the land, were it is colder (difference in pressure levels being the cause). Perfectly natural phenomenon, known as breeze ;)

[davem]

Storms out of the West seem a common reaction from the Valar in times of extreme tribulation. Perhaps the most significant storm out of the West appears in the Notion Club Papers. As Christopher Tolkien notes

"The Great Storm of June 12th, 1987: my father's 'prevision' was only out by four months. The greatest storm in living memory struck southern England, causing vast damage, on October 16th, 1987. It is curious in the light of this to read Mr Green's remarks: - It may well be that the predictions (notably of the storm), though genuine & not coincidences, were unconcious: giving one more glimpse of the strange processes of so called literary 'invention', with which the Papers are largely concerned.'

So, in a story begun in the mid 1940's but set in the mid 1980's, Tolkien 'accurately' (to within a few months) predicts a real world storm out of the West which devastates southern England. Yet in his letters Tolkien repeatedly speaks of not 'inventing' the tales, but rather 'discovering' what 'really' happened. He also admits to a visitor that he did not believe that he had made it all up.

Not to push that too far - the point is that he was tapping into some deeper level of the unconscious mind & drawing up images & symbols which he set out in his stories. He took Dunne's theories of Time seriously, as Flieger has shown, & felt that it was possible to achieve a state of mind where one could become receptive to both the far past & the distant future - which is what the Notion Club Papers & the Lost Road are exploring.

But back to the topic, Storms out of the West, often with Eagles riding the winds of the storm, or appearing in conjunction with them, are an image which runs right through the Legendarium, & are clearly symbolic of an intervention by Manwe. They are supernatural events. Storms seem to symbolise or signal the anger of the spiritual powers, Eagles often to symbolise divine 'Grace', unexpected & unlooked for. But both storms & Eagles are symbols of the divine breaking into the mundane, Manwe's way of saying 'We are still here' - a threat to the forces of evil, & a sign of hope to those struggling against it.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

HI, but could the one you call breeze pass through the walls of Ered Lómin? Or will it be directed upwards and become jet streams? ;)

Seriously, so it could mean to show Manwë's anger towards Morgoth - for obvious reasons - and the Noldor - who still trust to their might, despite the earlier lessons at Bragollach. And he chose Hithlum, because it is very well the center of the effort against Morgoth - aside from being nearest to the sea.

And perhaps a reminder:

"He-llo! Your hope of victory still depends from us people beyond the Sea!"

[Finwe]

In all effectuality, yes. Manwë had to send those foolish little kiddies some form of an "I told you so."


Then again, it could also have been him mourning the loss of so many heroes.

[HerenIstarion]

I was joking. The answer to the question posed in the very first post was given in the very first post

[Evisse the Blue]

Perhaps embarassingly off-topic, but this bit in davem's post brought it to mind:
Not to push that too far - the point is that he was tapping into some deeper level of the unconscious mind & drawing up images & symbols which he set out in his stories.
I wonder if Tolkien approved of Jung's theories.

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

well im gonna take a more symbolic view towards the wind and personnally i dont think one of the omnipotent powers would have the arrogance to mock the noldor in their day of greatest defeat. IF, special emphasis on if, it was manwe who sent the wind it wouldnt have been like a parent scolding a disobiedent child it would be on of sorrow for the lose and waste of so many good fellows. Now to my point on the IF, it may not have been manwe or the other powers weaping for the lose but the world itself and as we all know Tolkien was quite the pacifist so it would be an excellent literary tool saying that the world itself weeps and mourns for the dead and lost. Next point, it may not be a mournful wind but more of a statement to those left not to despair and that there is still hope and too keep pushing on considering that often wind is symbolic of change in many tales and stories, ie in the War of the Ring just as the winds change help comes unlooked for. This wing was probably more of a statement to Melkor then to the Noldor saying basically you have one the battle but the war is hardly through. and thats my two cents

[The Saucepan Man]

On a linked theme, here is a thread discussing the symbolic use of weather in Tolkien's works:

The Symbolic Significance of Weather (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2316&highlight=weather)

[HerenIstarion]

wonder if Tolkien approved of Jung's theories.

I seem to recall that Tolkien (and Inklings in general) approved of Jung as opposed to Freud. I could not find the clear statement in the letters or elswhere, but it haunts the back of my mind as thing once read and marked for remembrance :). but forgotten alas. Maybe it was Lewis' biography, no way of telling right now.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Welcome to the Downs, Nimikôi Angarauko. :)

Elenrod puts on the hat of a Morgoth's advocate.

...i don't think one of the omnipotent powers would have the arrogance to mock the noldor in their day of greatest defeat.
It's not a mockery...it could be seen as more of a scolding. The Noldor still holding on to that last shred of pride instead of turning to the only one who could really stop Morgoth.

[davem]

I'm not sure how far one can push the Jungian conection. Jung's Archetypes are basically biological in nature. Synchronicity may play some part in the Great Storm of Notion Club & the Great Storm of the real world, both of which happen in 1987, but I'm not too sure. Its certainly one of the wierdest conections between the Secondary & Primary worlds.

From a Jungian point of view, storms (& Eagles) could be seen to symbolise an 'irruption' from the Collective Unconscious/spiritual level of reality into the mundane. Manwe's presence is constant throughout LotR - storms, Eagles, &, of course, Gandalf himself, one of the Maiar who served Manwe. That's all probably in the thread Saucepan Man has pointed us to, but I haven't got time to read through it at the moment!

[doug*platypus]

Ah, Nilpaurion Felagund, well observed. I'm now on my 6th (ish) reading of The Silmarillion and I'm finding countless small passages such as this taking on incredible significance. For a fairly small tome, it contains a huge amount of action and events. I personally missed the significance of the wind the first time round, but I would bet that yes it does mean something.

In my humble opinion it sounds more like an action of anger and frustration. A rebuke and a defiance of Melkor, whose despotic and sadistic actions become more evil as the tale unfolds. To me it seems to be an indication that the Valar may still be stirred to wrath against him. Of course, such emotions really are against the nature of Manwë, and I could be horribly wrong.

Gandalf himself, one of the Maiar who served Manwe.
Although Gandalf did serve the purposes of Manwë, wasn't he actually a Maia of Lórien, who did the odd job for Nienna now and then? Righto, off to that weather thread...

[davem]

Quote:

'Although Gandalf did serve the purposes of Manwë, wasn't he actually a Maia of Lórien, who did the odd job for Nienna now and then? Righto, off to that weather thread...'

Encyc of Arda gives:

A Maia of the people of Manwë and Varda, Olórin was said to be one of the wisest of his order. He came to Middle-earth in the Third Age in the guise better known as Gandalf.

Don't have the books to hand, so I (& E of A) may both be wrong.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In the Silmarillion it is said that:


Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her learned pity and patience.

Valaquenta; The Silmarillion

And in the Unfinished Tales, it is explained that in early versions Gandalf was a counsellor of Irmo (Lórien); before this was changed and he became a maia of Manwë and Varda. Should this change have also been reflected by changing the place where Gandalf lived in Valinor? In my opinion, it is somewhat strange that a maia of Manwë lives in Lórien; but I may be wrong :)