Balrog Sprinters?

[The Perky Ent]

A pondering question: When Ungoliant started strangling Melkor, and Morgoth sounded that loud screem and the Balrogs came from the ruined halls of Angband, how is it that the Balrogs could make it in time to save Melkor? I mean, Ungoliant became pretty darn big after devouring the treasures of Formenos, so it wouldn't be long before Melkor kicked the bucket! And seeing the speed of a Balrog in FOTR, how is it that they could come from Angband to Morgoth in enough time to save him? How long would it take Morgoth to die? I mean, surely longer than a man or elf, but Balrogs are slow. Unless they're balrog sprinters in the first age, ungoliant might have snapped Melkor's neck! Wouldn't that be a sight! Anyway, how is it that a Balrog can travel that fast?

[Mister Underhill]

Wings!

[The Saucepan Man]

They flew. ;)

And I don't see the most powerful of the Valar being killed by Ungoliant that quickly, however large she might have grown.

Edit: Darn you, Underhill, you beat me to it! ;)

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I thought I smelled the wings issue again. How many times are we going to bring this up? :D

[The Perky Ent]

Yes, it's possible, but i've never understood the argument with Balrog wings! Do they work? Because i've always though they were like vestigial structures....that is if Balrog's evolve. I though they were small and couldn't carry the weight. And still, the Sil says and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to asunder the webs of Ungoliant which indicates they might have flown, but you never can tell...

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Wings or no, in those days the Balrogs weren't as apt to wear the forms of shadow and they were made of flame - but are still spirits and can do some amazing things. Flew probably just means they weren't putting feet on the ground, and since the Silm explicitly states that they came in a 'fiery tempest' (or something similar to that), then I'd say it was less an instance of them even being in a humanoid physical form. I try and imagine several streaks of fire blazing forth low over the ground, burning all in their way as the came, with shadows streaking out behind them (occasionally even twisting, writhing and barrel-rolling around eachother) like some sort of fire storm out of hell (again literally). A spirit of fire doesn't need to follow the laws of human physics.

Also, I was under the impression that it would mostly be Ungoliant's abdomen that swelled even fatter, and Melkor was a very, very strong being. He had spear, fist and black magic to keep her from sinking her teeth in, but he was pinned nonetheless. But if a being is capable of screaming so loud that his servants can hear him from hundreds of miles away, it's not that big of a stretch to think he could hold his own, and that the servants could get there fairly quickly (that being said, if the movie Sam could hold open Shelob's fangs, I think Melkor could).

[Gorwingel]

I doubt that they would have flew. From what it says in the Sil it sounds like they ran with just very big strides, and maybe some sort of otherworldly power. But maybe we will have to just leave this to the imagination. Because of course, from what we have learned from our many, many, many other Balrog threads... Tolkien never exactly decided for sure what the Balrogs should be.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Then sudden Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than the Balrogs from Thangorodrim...

(The Silmarillion 18)

Now, I wouldn't compare the speed of those rushing rivers of flame to something slow, would I. Ergo, the Balrogs were swift. Very swift. Probably with momenta equal to that of...

Physics finals is over.

Yes. Sorry.

I think it was the movie Balrog that was depicted as slow. The movie was wrong - again...but that was not unexpected... :rolleyes:

P.S. Yep, glad the Silm's back.

[Eomer King of Rohan]

Well being a New Zealander I have to stick up for the Movies. I think that the crampted space inside Moria(well for a Balrog anyway) would contribute to its relatively slow movement. Also I think Balrogs, being tortured maia spirits could change form into some tiny flame then reappear as a giant flaming beast somewhere. Or mabe Morgoth being the Evil dude that he is (I suppose he is the Vala(god) of evil) sent a fell wind to helb the Balrogs fly some sort of Hurricane to speed their progress.

I do agree with Silmiel of Imladris How many times must we go through the wings issue?

[drigel]

It is a tired issue i agree. I think of it this issue in a relative way (like the world was created in 7 days). Since there was no specific time frame to reference against, who is to say that Morgoth didnt struggle for days, waiting for the Balrogs to rescue him? His cry for help could have lasted for days for that matter.

Thats the scene I had pictured anyways - no wings involved. Just those two locked in a deathgrip, staring at each other. Sleepless spirits of malice. Despite Morgoths fear, I dont think the spider could have done him in, but she could have done him a lot of hurt. What a scene that would have been!

So "flying" for Balrogs (IMO) was a swift gait - possibly horse speed.

[The Perky Ent]

Yes, I was thinking of the Balrog in Moria. Movie Version. But if a Balrog is fast, would they be like sprinters, running in track position ready to sprint? Yes they could fly, but i just don't see them running a great distance. So i'm with Eomer King of Rohan (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/member.php?userid=3712) on that one because it would make more sence that they'd use black magic to teleport, rather than sprint across Middle Earth

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

...and now swiftly [the Balrogs] arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

(The Silmarillion 9 - emphasis mine)

Now "as a tempest of fire" gave me some idea - remember "The Mummy," where Imhotep could travel in the form of a sandstorm? Perhaps they travelled in the form of a great firestorm? ;)

[Laitoste]

That's what I was thinking, Nilpaurion. Storms can move pretty fast, so it wouldn't take too long for one of the balrogs to reach him. And in the time that he's waiting, I'm sure Morgoth could have protected himself.

[obloquy]

So i'm with Eomer King of Rohan on that one because it would make more sence that they'd use black magic to teleport, rather than sprint across Middle Earth

There are a couple of problems with Eomer King of Rohan's suggestion. First, using "black magic to teleport" is unprecedented in Tolkien's work.

Secondly, Balrogs were incarnated Maiar and were thus bound to their bodies and unable to shift into the spiritual plane for travel.

[The Perky Ent]

Ah, but if teleportation doesn't exsist, why is there a "spiritual plane for travel"? I see your point though. Also, i can't understand the Ungoliant strangle thingie. Does Morgoth just stand there why she strangles him, or is he trying to fight her?!?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Does Morgoth just stand there why she strangles him, or is he trying to fight her?!?
Surely, he must fight her.

But Ungoliant has grown great, and [Morgoth] less by the power that had gone out of him...

'tis an unfair fight. Ungoliant just had breakfast, while Morgoth had been fasting.

[Finwe]

Why don't we try not venting about the wings issue.


Since the Balrogs were spirits, normal laws of physics didn't apply to them. As much as we'd like the idea, they didn't teleport either. Urgency makes you work harder, and if you hear your master screaming like he's getting munched by a giant spider for dessert, you'd hurry up darn quick to go save him. Without a fana, an Ainu appears as a naked flame. Have you ever seen how quickly flames spread? Now multiply that by twenty or thirty or however many Balrogs there were. That's one damn big wildfire.

[Son of Númenor]

...and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to asunder the webs of Ungoliant...For the record, I decided to count the number of times in The Silmarillion the phrases "passing over", "pass over" and "passed over" appear in the context of characters' travels. It turns out that, including the Valaquenta and the Ainulindalë but excluding Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (I got lazy), the phrases appear 32 times, and are used only twice in the context of flight (to describe the movements of Thorondor and Tilion). In retrospect this was an utterly profitless endeavour, although it is a (minute) dent in the argument of some pro-wingers. Thank you for your time.

[The Perky Ent]

I am now subscribing to a new version of the Balrog Wing issue. They have wings, but cannot fly. Instead, I have figured out Balrogs the way Tolkien wanted it: Balrogs are Hoppers. They travel by hopping, and using their wings to fly. They aren't flying, but they can travel over vast distances as if flying. Plausable?

[obloquy]

I am now subscribing to a new version of the Balrog Wing issue. They have wings, but cannot fly. Instead, I have figured out Balrogs the way Tolkien wanted it: Balrogs are Hoppers. They travel by hopping, and using their wings to fly. They aren't flying, but they can travel over vast distances as if flying. Plausable?

At last this issue can be put to rest.