Another thing...Why did the elves not fight?

[Etharius]

I was pretty dissappointed at the elves in story of LotR. They didn't fight at Helms Deep or at Minas Tirith and neither at that other place. I think they are either wussies or stuck-up. Why were they not prepared to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of Sauron and the ring?

And the same goes for the Dwarves, although, i can understand those fellows.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The Elves did fight. In fact, they had been doing little else for thousands and thousands of years.

[Maédhros]

But the Elves did fight.
From LOTR: Appendix B: The Tale of Years
After the fall of the Dark Tower and the passing of Sauron the Shadow was lifted from the hearts of all who opposed him but fear and despair fell upon his servants and allies. Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur. but besides the valour of the elven people of that land the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.
In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded. and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory. And on the day of the New Year of the Elves. Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves
It is a common misconception that people have that the Elves didn't fight at all. Remember that Sauron had forces in the North of ME (Dol Guldur) and the Elves who mostly dwelt there had to defend themselves. If they were to go (as the movie does) to fight in the south, who would have defended their own realms?

[doug*platypus]

Click Me (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10).

[Elianna]

what was that for doug?...oh! for the "Lament of Elves" topic. Yes, Etharius, you should read that topic before you start calling elves wusses. Firefoot's Tolkien quote I find to be awesome.

To make excuses:
They've been fighting for literally Ages; they're tired of it, and tired of Middle-earth itself; they're leaving. Why bother with a world you're going to leave in just a few years, when you've already made such a thankless effort to help it.

Anyway, for another set of argument:
If you missed that part in the App., here's one from "The Passing of the Grey Company":
...said Gimli. "The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires. Now why did we not wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?"

Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. "I do not think that any would come," he answered. "They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands."

So there you go: all Lórien, Mirkwood and Erebor were busy with their own battles of the War of the Ring. And Rivendell sent out some of its best warriors: Elladan and Elrohir.

And grab a copy of Silmarillion, then explain to me why you think the elves are wusses who never fight.

[HerenIstarion]

Why were they not prepared to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of Sauron and the ring

But quite the opposite, the elves were prepared to do so. The destruction of the One meant consequently stop of operation for the elven Three. Which was pretty much the same as self-sacrifice, or opening the way to their own fading. Just because of said destruction they were obliged to leave ME and go West, after all.

As for the battles, besides what Legolas and Gimli consider, and having in mind that elven fight proof is already provided by Maédhros let us reestablish good name of the dwarves too. The tale of years mentioned, besides narrative provided, has calendar entries too:

March 17 Battle of Dale. King Brand and King Dáin Ironfoot fall. Many Dwarves and Men take refuge in Erebor and are besieged. Shagrat brings Frodo's cloak, mail-shirt, and sword to Barad-dûr.

Narrative follows close by:

At the same time as the great armies besieged Minas Tirith a host of the allies of Sauron that had long threatened the borders of King Brand crossed the River Carnen, and Brand was driven back to Dale. There he had the aid of the Dwarves of Erebor; and there was a great battle at the Mountain's feet It lasted three days, but in the end both King Brand and King Dáin Ironfoot were slain, and the Easterlings had the victory. But they could not take the Gate. and many, both Dwarves and Men, took refuge in Erebor, and there withstood a siege.

To draw an assumption, the book itself deals only with events happening around fellows of the ring (if I may be forgiven for coining such an expression). But many things happen elsewhere too, and those are described outside the main narrative. But it is always good to read them too, before coming to conclusions.

[Essex]

Let's cut our Newly Deceased Etharius some slack. Not everyone who has read LOTR may have read the silmarillion or even the appendecies of LOTR.

I agree with most of what has been explained above, but I do agree with the point Etharius made that the Elves may have been 'stuck up'. I believe they were HIGHLY stuck up, and had a 'holier than thou' attitude.

This may be down to the fact that they were the Firstborn and immortal, and saw themselves as the god's 'chosen ones'.

As well as their sin of pride, this doesn't give them an excuse to be a pretty nasty bunch of beings for a lenghty period of their history (ie kinslaying, etc).

You may be able to ascertain from this post that I am not a great lover of Elves.

[HerenIstarion]

Let's cut our Newly Deceased Etharius some slack. Not everyone who has read LOTR may have read the silmarillion or even the appendecies of LOTR.

With pleasure :) Any amount of slack one may wish for would be cut at Etharius' disposal, and, yes, there is nothing bad in being not versed in something, for all of us are good or bad in some fields of our interest, but for three things:

1) The attitude exhibited in the initial post of the thread hints at judging from the movies version, and dissaproving of the books as differing to the worse
2) We are in the Books subforum and not in the Movies
3) Initial post poses not questions but statements, statements in accusative mode at that

Whilst neither point is outside the scope of person's right to express his/her opinions freely, it is likewise our right not to agree, and it is not surprising that number of us felt it our duty to defend books from groundless accusations. I say 'felt', for until you asked for respite, I did not consciously realise what it was that made me post in the thread of the kind I usually try to avoid.

Besides, counter arguments given were backed up with quotes. Far from having intentions of scaring new members away, intentions behing quote-providing are usually to the best - to interest the person against whom argument is held to read the section of the books which is quoted and change his/her views on the basis of textual evidence, and not merely refute with holy anger.

pretty nasty bunch of stuck up pranky beings re:

A load of men proved themselves a lot nastier, more sinfully proud, spilled more blood of their own kin and so forth. As for the chosen ones, I lack time to start profound discussion right away, but the thing is, elves knew for sure that followers were the chosen ones (if such an expression is at all lawfull, for both are Children of Eru, and each has its function, so there is no talk about being chosen as in a sense like 'preferred', for Eru loves all His Children likewise) on two bases:

A) Men were to inherit ME, and elves were to fade
B) Men were granted death - i.e. freedom to go (allegedly) to Illuvatar directly.

Besides, estrangement between two races, which may have been the cause of such an attitude (as to accuse the opposite of being haughty), is ascribed to Sauron's doings.

cheers

[Etharius]

Don't worry about the slack. I can take a lot of it.

Very interesting and useful replies there people, thanks. I should have perhaps mentioned in my opening post that i have read LotR and 80% of the appendicies (understood 70%). But yes, i have also seen the movie and I have always remained fully concious that the Elves did NOT go to battle at Helms Deep.

One more thing that interests me however is when Essex mentioned "Kinslaying". What did she mean? It sounds nasty.

[The Saucepan Man]

One more thing that interests me however is when Essex mentioned "Kinslaying". What did she mean? I would recommend that you read the Silmarillion, Etharius. I don't want to spoil the story for you. But if you really can't wait, try doing a search for "Kinslaying" on this forum.

The points concerning the Elves' involvement in the War of the Ring, and indeed their struggle with first Morgoth and later Sauron throughout the histroy of Middle-earth, are well-made.

But I would tend to agree with Essex when he says:


I believe they were HIGHLY stuck up, and had a 'holier than thou' attitude. They may not have been superior to Men in the eyes of Eru (or even in fact), but I do think that the Elves had a tendency to regard themselves as such, particularly in the First Age. The Elf lords patronised Men by giving them under-lordships within Elven lands. They also seemed to regard Men as mere cannon (canon? ;) ) fodder to be sacrificed in their wars against Morgoth's forces. Turgon, for example, was quite happy to leave the people of Hurin and Huor to almost certain death (or capture) to cover the retreat of his people at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (even though most of his people would have lived at least ten times as long as those who sacrificed themselves for them). And some clearly despised Men. While his views are no doubt the exception rather than the rule, I am sure that Saeros was not alone in regarding them as little more than wild beasts.

I am by no means an Elf-hater. I would most certainly acknowledge their great and valiant deeds, their wisdom and their creativity. Their First Age attitude to Man notwithstanding, they clearly had a beneficial influence on the development of the Edain (or those that remained after helping out the Elves in their little spat with Morgoth :rolleyes: ). But I do think that we must recognise, on a general level, that Elves did display the character flaw that Essex highlights.

[Lord of Angmar]

But I do think that we must recognise, on a general level, that Elves did display the character flaw that Essex highlights.(The Saucepan Man) I assume that by "on a general level" you mean that while it is a common trait among Elves, it cannot be ascribed to each and everyone of the Firstborn. I can think of many prominent Elves of the First Age who displayed this character flaw, (Thingol, many of the Sons of Feanor, Saeros, etc.), but I can think of an equal or greater number who displayed no such trait (Luthien, Felagund, Beleg and Gwindor, to name a few). And though I do agree that there was a good deal of patronage of the Edain by the Elves of Beleriand, I also think that Men being appointed as 'underlords' was in many cases as much a sign of respect and friendship as it was a means of patronization.As well as their sin of pride, this doesn't give them an excuse to be a pretty nasty bunch of beings for a lenghty period of their history (ie kinslaying, etc).(Essex)I agree with HerenIstarion that as far as races of Middle-earth go, the Elves are just as 'good' as any other. If I were to write an argument similar to the sentiments you have expressed above for each of the other major races, it would go something as follows:

-Dwarves: Lustful, greedy, proud and arrogant, hiding in their mountains hoarding their wealth, without even enough respect for the other inhabitants of Middle-earth to share their language.

-Men: Easily corruptible, prone to usurpation and treachery. From Ulfang to Ar-Pharazon, Men have countless times proven that they do not deserve to inherit the earth.

The only denizens of Middle-earth who are, as a race, guilty of no (recorded) 'sinful' wrongdoing are the Bombadilians (including Goldberry). :D

[The Saucepan Man]

I assume that by "on a general level" you mean that while it is a common trait among Elves, it cannot be ascribed to each and everyone of the Firstborn. I would actually go further and say that it was (in the First Age at least) an inherent part of Elvish nature to consider themselves superior to Iluvatar's other children. Often this manifested itself in a negative way, but I think that, in many individuals (those that you mention, for example), it manifested itself instead in a positive way. Although I would still maintain that it is patronising for the Elves to grant to Men a part of the land which they had claimed for themselves but over which they in fact had no greater right save by dint of having got there first. And, while I do agree that Elves such as Luthien and Beleg came to regard individual Men as their equals, it does not necessarily follow that they regarded the entire race of Man on the same basis.

During the Second Age and certainly by the Third Age, it seems to me that Elves were coming round to a much fuller understanding that that which made them different from Men did not necessarily make them superior, no doubt prompted by an acknowledgement that their time was fading.

[Lord of Angmar]

During the Second Age and certainly by the Third Age, it seems to me that Elves were coming round to a much fuller understanding that that which made them different from Men did not necessarily make them superior, no doubt prompted by an acknowledgement that their time was fading.
I agree entirely with this general trend.Although I would still maintain that it is patronising for the Elves to grant to Men a part of the land which they had claimed for themselves but over which they in fact had no greater right save by dint of having got there first. And, while I do agree that Elves such as Luthien and Beleg came to regard individual Men as their equals, it does not necessarily follow that they regarded the entire race of Man on the same basis.I still wouldn't call this necessarily patronising. After all, nobody really has any 'right' to land save by the order in which they appeared there and, sadly, by the military strength of the land 'owners' or desirers. I agree about your point about Elves such as Beleg and Luthien, in theory, though I do not see any proof readily available to support (or, I suppose, to controvert) it. Does that make our theses 'uncanonical?' :p

By the way, I seem to have fallen victim to the quote mark addiction as well.

[Vanya]

I woldn'say Elves had more faults than other races. Except for Feanor and his sons, who commited horrible crimes, and caused so much suffer, other Elves through history showed great courage, spirit and were too wisu too be stuck-up. It's peple themselves that are guilty if Elves treated them badly. How many times they folowed Morgoth, and betrayd Elves? Except for Three Houses, most of them were enemys to Eldar. Eldars esteemed those families very much - didn't Finrod died to save Beren? As for the others, if I remember correctly, it is said that after NA (or was it LA) the hearts of Eldar and Man astranged? In both cases, it was the treachury of man ( Ulfang at NA and Isildur refusing to destroy the ring at LA).
So, if Elves had it enough with man, you can't blame them. And even then, they helped their own doom, by helping Frodo.

[Etharius]

sorry Essex, i assumed you were female. :)

[Saraphim]

Welcome to the Downs, Etharius! But if you ever want to have a social life of any kind, leave now! Look at my sig; you'll never get out!

Anyway. *looks around suspiciusly*

You should definitly read the Silmarilion, and the innumerable other books raleted to Middle-Earth. You'll find that the Elves do quite a bulk of the fighting. Especially Fingolfin:D.

In my opinion, the elves were all either dead, gone over to Valinor, or simply tired of fighting. Many of them still did, the Mirkwood elves is an example of this, because thier lands were threatened.

[doug*platypus]

Before this discussion turns instead to "Eldar: Wise Teachers or Just Jerks?"... whoops, too late! ;) .... I'd like to address the first post made by Etharius.I was pretty dissappointed at the elves in story of LotR. They didn't fight at Helms Deep or at Minas Tirith and neither at that other place. I think they are either wussies or stuck-up. Why were they not prepared to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of Sauron and the ring?While you're obviously entitled to your own opinion of Elves as "wussies", this judgment appears to have been made on them in great haste. The Barrow-Downs is a great source of extra information that you may not know about Tolkien's books. I've often found that knowledge brought to the discussion by other forum users has completely shattered my previous assumptions and misconceptions about Middle Earth.

Elianna has described very well the part that Elves did play in the wars of the Third Age. The Appendices are the best source of information for the deeds of the Elves and Dwarves during the War of the Ring, but some things can also be gleaned from the text. Thranduil and his Elves fought with evil creatures in Mirkwood. Galadriel, Haldir and the Elves of Lórien fought off three separate assaults from Dol Guldûr. I am not completely clear on the role of Elrond and Glorfindel at Imladris, but I think there was some threat from the Ettenmoors. At any rate, their part of the world was too wild and dangerous to abandon for the war in the south.

I can understand how the movies may have affected peoples' perception of the War of the Ring greatly. Peter Jackson chose to limit the conflict to the war in Gondor, thus shooting himself (and the story) in the foot. As Maédhros pointed out, the Elves of Lórien could not have come to Helm's Deep; they were already fighting Sauron on another front. That is part of the reason that many fans of the book were so upset by this significant change in the story. The movies would have us believe that the War took place in Rohan and Gondor only. This was NOT the case. The Dwarves of Erebor were NOT solely "hiding in their mountains seeking riches". Their King, Dáin Ironfoot, was killed defending against the forces of Sauron in the War of the Ring. And Elrond, in my humble opinion, still cared greatly for the fate of Middle Earth. There is nothing in the text to suggest he did not.

Most important of all, as already pointed out, the destruction of the One Ring meant that Lórien and Rivendell would both eventually cease to exist unchanged as centres of Elvendom in Middle Earth. Galadriel and Elrond both resisted the temptation to take the One. They let it go to be destroyed; both were acting selflessly (and/or wisely) for the greater good of Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elrond allowed his daughter to marry Aragorn and lose the opportunity to go to the Undrying Lands with him.

There are many easily found and convincing reasons why Elves were not "wussies" OR "stuck-up" OR "not prepared to sacrifice themselves". This is why I provided Etharius with that link to the Novices and Newcomers Forum. I believe that the question would have been more suitably posted there. But perhaps I was wrong.

[Etharius]

Yes maybe it should have. Thanks for the info on the Dwarves.

[The Saucepan Man]

... just a quick point in defence of Jackson.


I can understand how the movies may have affected peoples' perception of the War of the Ring greatly. Peter Jackson chose to limit the conflict to the war in Gondor, thus shooting himself (and the story) in the foot. I think it would have been very difficult for Jackson to portray the role of the Elves and Dwarves (and other Men such as the Bardings and the Beornings) in the War of the Ring without either disrupting the flow of the films or lengthening them considerably (which was really not an option). After all, the story which he was filming primarily focussed on the Wartime events which took place in Rohan and Gondor. So it was, I think, a fair call. And having the Elves turn up at Helm's Deep was, in part, intended to avoid the perception (amongst filmgoers) that the Elves were content selfishly to stand by while the race of Man was annihilated.

And now back to the book ... ;)

[Essex]

Actually, now looking at the replies to my earlier post (much better thought out than mine) , I also need to be doing some slack cutting myself (i.e. to the Elves).

I've just got fed up of the endless praising and views of many people who see Elves as 'perfect' beings (mainly on other forums that now seem to have gone West) and have been biased because of this.

I will re-read the Silmarillion again and see if I can change my view........

PS Etahrius sorry Essex, i assumed you were female.

Only at weekends!

PPS You call me a girl AND I was sticking up for you!!!!

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think it was because they were preparing for their journey over the sea to the Undying Lands.

[doug*platypus]

Thanks for the info on the Dwarves.No problem, Etharius, and a belated Welcome to the Downs! :D

I hope you were not offended by my suggestion that the thread should be in Novices and Newcomers, and I'm glad that you were able to get many, many answers to your first post!

Saucepan Man, that was an excellent explanation of (or should I say excuse for?) PJs decision to have the Elves fight at Helm's Deep. I maintain that a movie would be ideally suited to show quick CG scenes of various battles across Middle Earth (a la the celebration scenes at the end of the Return of the Jedi extended edition). But perhaps that discussion would be better on this thread:

Elves at Helm's Deep? (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=9903)

[Legolas]

Right; further points about the movie should be done in that forum.

Really, a majority of the elves left in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring were fighting, as stated before, with Lorien against the forces across Rhovanion. Other than that, there were very few elves left in Middle-earth. The time had come to complete the shift of dominance from elves to men, as Tolkien says, was planned/destined from the beginning ("The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves"). Truthfully, they should have already been gone (as Tolkien describes in the second quote provided below).

In his Letters (among other places), Tolkien makes some notes about the elves not being perfect or meant to reflect perfection - they too have their weaknesses. They certainly have admirable qualities, such as their love in preserving nature, but there are flaws obvious in looking at the history of Middle-earth. Some are very obvious in the happenings of the First Age, but some are observable in the Third Age though they go often overlooked. These notes can be sort of long, but it's hard to edit them while preserving the entire thought.


The fall of the Elves comes about through the possessive attitude of Feanor and his seven sons to these gems. [...] They pervert the greater pan of their kindred, who rebel against the gods, and depart from paradise, and go to make hopeless war upon the Enemy. The first fruit of their fall is war in Paradise, the slaying of Elves by Elves, and this and their evil oath dogs all their later heroism, generating treacheries and undoing all victories.

In the first we see a sort of second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves. There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against counsel, still sadly with the mortal lands of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming – even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of its hurts.

Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret.

...each of which [Men/Elves] has its own natural trend, and weakness. The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and as 'other' – sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves – not as a material for use or as a power-platform. [...] This [immortality] becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction (I have left out the mythological form which Malice or the Fall of the Angels takes in this fable). Mere change as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God. But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from an), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair.

[Etharius]

"Bardings and the Beornings"...

What are they?

Essex: Yet another comical apology. I think it must have been your name that gave the impression. (Essex girls 'n' all) ;)

[Legolas]

I'm guessing you haven't read The Hobbit. Bardings would be the men under Bard and his descendents in Dale - Bard was the man who shot down Smaug in The Hobbit. Beorn is a man with the ability to shape shift. He and his people lived just east of Mirkwood between it and the Anduin. Bilbo and the dwarves take refuge at his house with the aid of Gandalf.

[Etharius]

I havent read the Hobbit either. Thanks for the explanation though.

[Orophin]

It is said in the books that the leves and dwarves did fight. Just because they did not fight in the main battles with the fellowship of the ring does not mean that they just sat at home. Attacks were maid on Rivendell and Lothlorien, and I assume that most of their resources were used to repel those attacks. Also There were huge battles raging in the north when everyone was fighting in the south. This is how Dain Ironfoot died. Also I believe that the king of Esgargoth died too. Bard's grandson I believe. The elves and dwarves did fight, it's just that the books do not go into depth about it.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have greater bliss in this world.

(The Silmarillion 1)

Eru made them "better" than Men.

Note the quote marks.