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Zoe
01-18-2001, 02:10 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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This may be a stupid question, but did hobbits farm animals for meat?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They are (or were) a little people, about half our height
-The Hobbit<hr></blockquote>
Half 'our' height would be about 3 feet, perhaps slightly less, correct? If I were 3 ft tall, I wouldn't want to try and look after any animal larger than a chicken.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'And pork pie and salad,' said Bombur
-The Hobbit<hr></blockquote>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Pour the milk on the pantry floor!
-The Hobbit<hr></blockquote>
But here, we have references to food coming from larger animals, namely pigs and cows.

As we all know, hobbits can ride ponies, in some cases even small horses. But there's a bit of a difference between riding a pony and keeping a herd of cows.

So how on earth did they do it?

Did they have mini-cows? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

(Or have I just missed some piece of text which explains everything?)

</p>

Saulotus
01-18-2001, 03:09 AM
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Re: Farming and hobbits

Well there is the obvious answer that some trade was done with Bree-land.

There is also the answer that men were around; seemingly more popular in the marish area.

There is also the answer that if a dog can herd horses; it shouldn't be too unreasonable to infer that the short lil buggers couldn't do simple herdsmanship tasks.

And should the milk automatically be considered cow's-milk? Why not goat's milk?

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lindil
01-18-2001, 04:01 AM
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HoME XIII

Or Pygmy goats.

pigs can be bred and slaughtered while on the smallish side and cows are relatively docile, compared to bulls anyway. What about ol' Bandobras 'bullroarer' .

It doesn't seem as if there was enough trafficfrom Bree to maintain much in the way of foodstuffs. heck they couldn't even get a letter to hobbiton!

lindil

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Orald
01-18-2001, 12:29 PM
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Re: HoME XIII

They went shopping, duh. I believe it is chapter 11 or 12 in HoME XIII, I can't remember the name. There was a Krogers in Hobbiton and one in Michel Delving. Food Lions were all over Buckland. Plus there were a few Super Walmarts in the South Farthing.

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Saulotus
01-18-2001, 01:24 PM
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Re: HoME XIII

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It doesn't seem as if there was enough trafficfrom Bree to maintain much in the way of foodstuffs. heck they couldn't even get a letter to hobbiton!<hr></blockquote>
Not quite true. The letter was Barley's fault.

IIRC the Bree-lander's traded somewhat with the Bucklanders at least, just not often.

IIARC there was quite a bit of Bree-lander blood in the Brandybucks.



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Zoe
01-18-2001, 07:53 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: HoME XIII

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There was a Krogers in Hobbiton and one in Michel Delving. Food Lions were all over Buckland. Plus there were a few Super Walmarts in the South Farthing.<hr></blockquote>
Lol <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Thanks for the answers. It's nice to know I don't have to stick to my mini-cows solution.

</p>

lindil
01-19-2001, 09:25 AM
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Agro details




I have always figures 3 farthing stone must have been a giant outlet mall !



Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Saulotus
01-20-2001, 12:54 AM
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Re: Agro details

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There was a Krogers in Hobbiton and one in Michel Delving. Food Lions were all over Buckland. Plus there were a few Super Walmarts in the South Farthing.<hr></blockquote>
Bully on those.

Shop smart.
Shop S Mart.

</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
01-20-2001, 03:01 AM
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Re: Agro details

They could have farmed a small breed of sheeep or goats or pigs. Jersey cows are pretty small, too.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.geocities.com/gwindlord/GW.jpg http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
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and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
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The Barrow-Wight
01-20-2001, 08:29 AM
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Little Cows? Naw

Cattle are domesticated beasts of burden, quite docile and easily handled (or so I've heard). Hobbits wouldn't need miniature animals to be able to handle them. I'm sure they were able to control whichever creatures they put their mind to. But I also think that Hobbit livestock herds were probably small, meant only for the production of the family that owned them and perhaps their village butcher. There were likely no cowhobbits on the range driving cattle through the wilderness. Instead, they probably only had to go get a cow or two out of the field (or barn) when they needed one.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Grand Admiral Reese
01-20-2001, 08:57 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Little Cows? Naw

Hobbits seemed to get by pretty well. They coud easily domesticate the smaller varieties of animals(small pigs, goats, ponies, some cows)for their needs.


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HerenIstarion
01-20-2001, 01:51 PM
In the Hobbit:

Bilbo was too weak to help, and anyway he was not much good at skinning rabbits or cutting up meat, being used to having it delivered by the butcher all ready to cook.

Orald
01-21-2001, 05:35 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Little Cows? Naw

I think you forgot the actual quotation marks H-I. And thanks for the quote, it helps my theory on the shire having large scale grocery store chains.

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Orald
01-21-2001, 05:41 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Little Cows? Naw

300! Woohoo!!

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Zoe
01-21-2001, 09:07 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Little Cows? Naw

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> cows are relatively docile, compared to bulls anyway<hr></blockquote>
But wouldn't you need bulls, if you were to have cows? After all, all cows are female, and therefore you need a bull for breeding purposes. Would a(n average sized, not the bullroarer) hobbit really be big/strong enough to handle a bull?

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Gilthalion
01-22-2001, 02:04 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Little Cows? Naw

Lilliputians were quite small, but could handle Gulliver.

And, in the Scouring of the Shire, Hobbits demonstrated they could handle Big Folk, for that matter.

The secret is teamwork, good dogs, and smart husbandry.

Surely they would have prefered smaller cattle, etc. for many reasons. But as someone else figured, they weren't driving Longhorns to Wyoming. More likely, they kept a smallish herd size.

If keeping a big bull was a problem, he might be replaced with a smaller, or a more docile bull. (Or both.)

I imagine they would tend to breed for those characteristics.

Also, the bull would not be &quot;handled&quot; frequently at all. You should bring the cow to the bull for breeding, not the other way around.

Excess bulls are slaughtered as fattened calves or (ahem) &quot;de-bulled&quot; and make into oxen. The cows are allowed to reach maturity for breeding and milk. Only the occassional prize breeding bull need be a concern, and I'm sure the Hobbitry could cope.

As for the rest of the livestock, no problem at all! (Except large hogs, and they get the same treatment as the bulls...)

Pastures are the result of clearing land and planting grasses, which in turn are cropped by the livestock. A good self-replenishing pasture takes years to create, and careful rotation of herds both to prevent over-grazing and for fertilization.

<center> ~~~</center>

As for Bilbo, he was a wimp. I'm sure Farmer Maggot or Farmer Cotton could deal with butchering a rabbit. Sam Gamgee had no problem! (But I notice he did send Smeagol to catch the rabbitses. Maybe Sam, being on the cheap side, bought whole rabbits from the butcher, rather than having them delivered neatly packaged!)

Obviously, Hobbits were organic farmers/gardeners. Livestock would be a necessity if only for the manure!

Now, Bilbo had gardens, but obviously had no livestock. One of the jobs of the Gamgees (or old Holnam before them) would have been to go out and get manure for the flower beds and the kitchen garden. I'm sure if Bilbo was too delicate for rabbit butchery, then he wouldn't have been mucking around with manure, either!

In other Hobbit Agricultural pursuits, we might also guess that they had their own vineyards for wine as well as fields of barley for beer!

So we have a picture of a complete agrarian society, with grains, vines, fruits, nuts, and vegetables, and with herds of sheep, goats, pigs, cattle, chickens, ducks, geese, rabbits, dogs, and cats. The fields were necessary to feed the livestock (not to mention feeding the hobbits!) and the livestock was necessary to fertilize the fields (not to mention feeding the hobbits!).

Once fully developed, as in Bilbo's time, the Shire was self-sufficient, and did not NEED to have commerce with the outside world (except for luxuries which by definition are not necessities).

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Homepage</a>~~~ </center></p>

lindil
01-22-2001, 11:04 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> dual difinitivness

Well now 2 things are eminently clear.
1. all general details [and many specific ones] of shire perma/agri-culture [excellent post Galthalion, <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> ]
2. Lindil is not Gilthalion as G.'s writing contained 0! run on sentences and 0 [?] typo's.
&quot; What further need of witness have we?&quot;



Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Gilthalion
01-23-2001, 06:29 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: dual difinitivness

Thanks!

I didn't see any glaring mistakes, though I am prone to careless spelling errors.

I tried to interest some folk one time in a discussion of this sort, but never managed.

I've also had a geekish interest in hobbit technology and Middle-earth ways and means in general.

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Homepage</a>~~~ </center></p>

Selmo
02-07-2003, 05:27 AM
I'm surprised that some posters think that hobbits would have difficulty with large animals like cattle, horses and large dogs.

I've often seen hobbit-sized children handling them all with consummate skill.

Bill Ferny
02-08-2003, 04:01 PM
If humans can domesticate elephants, hobbits would certainly be able to handle a cow.

the guy who be short
10-28-2006, 04:24 PM
Well, I just had this thought recently and lo! this thread already existed.

Personally, I'd ask what hobbit would be brave enough to domesticate a cow in the first place. If we presume that they'd be too wimpy to do so, this implies the domesicated cow may have been inherited from a taller past. Either that, or stolen during midnight raids on the Big People.