Writers out there - what about genders?

[Olorin_TLA]

I decided to start a new thread not to clutter up the "Are you writing serious fantasy II" thread, but could we have a quick poll to see if most people main/non-main characters are the same gender as they are?

And what do they look/act like? Do they tend to be a little like you, or are similarities only becuase you don't wantto wirte about a blue-skinned fantasy-hater?

For me, most of my protagonists are male, like meself. In fact, practically all are. It's no that I doubt my ability to write as a woman...it's just that...I haven't really.

They don't look that much like me, but at the same time there aren't any short ones really, and I have my fair share of "swarthy" people everywhere with dark hair. But I have plenty of other type,of many vairedothertypes,as well,and none if it was aconcious-appearence thing. As for behaviour, well, they're nice people who I'd like, :D , and they would share quite a fewof my views, but that;sbecause i don't WANT to waste what little time I have on this earth writing about people I DON'T like! ;)

[Son of Númenor]

When I write a short story, I almost exclusively use men as main characters. I am not confident in my ability to create a believable female heroine, since my writing is most often based on or inspired by personal experiences & I generally try to have my characters reflect how my thought process would be in the situation I am writing about. Having never been a woman or thus having never seen if there are any major internal differences in the thought processes of women & men, I do not really feel qualified to attempt to write from the vantage point of a woman.

To tie this back in with Professor Tolkien somehow:

I think J.R.R. Tolkien probably felt the same way to an extent, which is why his important female characters tended to represent ideals - Eowyn desires to take an equal part in war as men, no visible motivations are ascribed to Lúthien besides her immense love for Beren, Galadriel is a wise matriarchal leader, & Arwen is a beautiful princess party to a mysterious love with one of The Lord of the Rings' main protagonists . I am not saying that these characters are shallow or that they necessarily lack depth of personality, but merely that they come across as, to a degree, representing different points on the spectrum of female literary creations of Tolkien's time period, rather than as characters that Tolkien is comfortable describing in their everyday lives like Frodo & Bilbo. This (& it is just my own interpretation, & not necessarily the right one) seems attributable to the fact that Tolkien was a man, & did not possess a high degree of confidence in creating unique, subtle female characters whose personas & motivations could blend seamlessly with the plot of his stories in lead-role capacities.

[symestreem]

I have always written main characters of the same gender as myself, for the reasons Son of Numenor said, but I have many supporting characters of the opposite gender.

[Eowyn Skywalker]

I always base one of the main characters on myself, that way I'll be able to write them easier, I'll know what they are thinking, and be able to put it down on paper. Another note would be that I normally write my characters into siduations that I, myself have been in. But yes, normally my main characters are female. I also tend to write in an evil female character, though not always the main evil, for the same reasons.

But I also write in at least one character that's male, and has a leading role, that way my stories don't become blind out Mary-Sues. Also, they tend to need some male guidance in the stories anyhow, though I will NOT write romance! Ick.

But yeah, that's my thoughts here.

-Eowyn Skywalker

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Since the Books forum is really reserved for discussions of Tolkien's books, I'm moving the writers' threads to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to share ideas there!

[Carlas]

I don't write much original fantasy, but in all the RPGs I have played in I have always been a male, the opposite gender. I had wanted to challenge myself when I first started RPing so I decided to be a male. Ever since then, I have always ended up as a male character, whether it was because I just enjoyed being a male or the RPG called for it. In the few short things I have written though, my main characters were mainly female. :D

[Sirithheruwen]

Well, since I was the one who started this, I better reply with the advice I got. (Oh, BTW, Olorin, great idea to put it on another thread!)

My characters are female. My male main characters turn out flat and boring. Even *I* am unable to relate to them. (And that's really bad!) As a sollution, Imladris (I think...) suggested that you study any males that you might have around you such as fathers, brothers, or guys at school/work. Study their ways, and then see what you come up with. Another suggestion, by Olorin (I believe) was to stick one of the male BDers into one of your stories and see what you come up with. (This would only be practice, of course.)

But I also write in at least one character that's male, and has a leading role, that way my stories don't become blind out Mary-Sues.

I think it's always good to write in at leasst one opposite-gender-of-the-main-character character. Otherwise you might seem biased or something. Unless there is an all one-gender world...hmmm...

[Lhundulinwen]

So far most of my main characters (especially when I write from their perspective) have been female, like me. But generally, the evil characters will be male or more of an asexual character. In my current novel, I think the evil will be more of a council of lesser evils, making up as a whole a larger evil. There will, of course, be females on the council. I think the reason I don't usually write from the perspective of males is because the only close male friend I have (no, I've never had a boyfriend, so don't go there) is so enigmatic. I can't understand him at all somedays, but I love him all the more for it. My female friends, I can usually predict what they'll say, what they're thinking, and to a certain extent what mood they are in whitin seconds of seeing them. Not that they are boring or shallow, its just that I can read they're body language and the slightest outward twitch, and know what's going on with them. I just DO NOT understand the opposite sex's thoughts and reasonings.

I think it is very important to have a mix of characters. An audience must have someone to relate too. If your audience is mainly preteen girls, go ahead and cut the leading men down to one or two, and feel free to talk about all your female gripes (and pains). But if your audience is diverse, its best to have a character that everyone can find a trait (physical can work, but emotional flaws eg. anger issues work the best) that they can relate too, and 'latch' on too for the diration of the story. That's just my opinon though. :D

[Lyta_Underhill]

Not that I've ever finished anything fanfiction-wise that I'm writing, but, for some reason, I rarely make up main original characters in fanfiction; in my original fiction, I have written females mostly, but the story called for it. Most of my attempts at fanfiction are written in omniscient voice and have only a few peripheral female characters. The main focus is an exploration of existing characters. So far the focus has been on Frodo and on Pippin (in two different stories), my two favorite LOTR characters. As to whether they are like me, well, only in some ways! In a super-long original Bildungsroman-type fiction, however, the main character was me. But I'd never put her in a fanfiction, especially not in Middle Earth!
i don't WANT to waste what little time I have on this earth writing about people I DON'T like! I would think this would be a rewarding and enlightening exercise, to force yourself to really think about what drives someone you absolutely despise and then write him or her faithfully according to what you figure out. If you did it well, you might even find you feel rather sorry for that character, and it would rise above the person upon whom you based it. :)

Cheers!
Lyta

[Olorin_TLA]

Ah, I can see what you mean...I do have characters (hoguh not the main-main protagonists (although a couple have ended up killing their best friends/close family, with varying degrees of "blame" (as opposed to them not intednign it to go so far)) who aren't the kind I'd like. What I really meant was that none of my characters are like some people I've met in real life - ultimately petty, unreasonable, etc. Even my evilest villains are at least not that! I understand that it could be a very enlightening process...however, there are a few people I know who are so extremely petty, etc, where nothing gets through to them, that I think that if I wrote as them I'd end up writing something abominable (to me), as they'd just be so stubborn they'd drive the reader (or author) made! Just my humble opinion though. ;)

[Imladris]

Nearly all my characters, especially on RPG games, are the opposite gender. I don't know why, but I prefer to write male -- probably because they are so cool. Though I do have one story that has an all female cast...But males can do so many more things than females, and I find that it is very easy to turn the heroine into a wanna-be-male who can do everything (if not better!) than a guy can. Eowyn, thank goodness wasn't like that.

[Sirithheruwen]

But males can do so many more things than females

Do tell.
:D

[Olorin_TLA]

Join the Freemasons? Not join the Women's Institute? ;)

[Imladris]

Do tell.
:D

I do not want this to turn into a femininst discussion, so please don't take it as such. I find most heroines to be blithering idiots who think they can fight better, etc. It's simply not true. Men are stronger, more able to go and do war, are sometimes braver, and have the capacity to do things that women simply cannot do. *shrugs*

That's why I like it that Eowyn had to have Merry help her...she's my type of girl. She was willing to fight, eager to fight...but she wasn't superwoman either.

Freemasons? What are those?

[Sirithheruwen]

I do not want this to turn into a femininst discussion

Agreed.

I find most heroines to be blithering idiots who think they can fight better, etc. It's simply not true. Men are stronger, more able to go and do war, are sometimes braver, and have the capacity to do things that women simply cannot do. *shrugs*

Actually, when writing fantasy, it's all up to the writer. If you want women to be better than men, they can be. *shrugs also* Clearly, we disagree, but I will leave this at that.

[Lhundulinwen]

Freemasons? What are those?
They are a very old, all male religious club. George Washington was a member. Some people have the club's logo put on their tombstones.
When it comes to characters going to war, or any other test of strength, I think to make it believable, you must not have your character be a super person. (Unless, of course the are a super hero, or just insane.) Any soldier will tell you that in a combat situation, they are scared. They'd be silly or a little crazy if they weren't. To get them through, the rely on instincts and training.
So, main characters who are male, and are put to the test and don't show any type of fear, resolve, etc. just bug me. In the movies, a guy will kiss a photo of his girlfriend or mother even. This shows that he's thinking of them and maybe even praying he'll be back with them.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. If your main character is male, and say his family has been kidnaped and are being held hostage. I expect him to charge in there and be madder than anything. Not saying he'll be reckless, just that he won't care as much about himself, just getting his family back, or show as much outward fear.
Most of the stronger female heroines I read about (and write about) can show just as much courage as anybody, depending on them and the situation. If they're stubborn, they'll have more of a grim faced resolve. If you punch the right buttons, say their children, my main characters will pull out an M-16 or bow and arrow (depending on the era) and go after the bad guy until they are taken care of.
I believe if you allow your characters to develop, and become stronger, by the climax, both female and male characters will be to the point where they can be a believable hero.

[Olorin_TLA]

I know this is going to be off-topic, but in resposne to Imladris, physically women can be just as capable as men (especially when trained...because when faced with 2 well-trained athletes, of different genders, I doubt many people would have much of a chance of winning) and I can't see what you mean when you say there are some things they simply can't do. And not needing a hobbit to kill a foe is hardly stretching real :rolleyes: ity.

[Imladris]

First of all, I never said that you needed a hobbit to kill a foe. I said that I liked that Eowyn wasn't super woman and that she needed Merry's help to kill the Witchking.

Second of all, women are weaker than men. Why else were they referred to as the weaker sex, why else was it always the man's duty to protect them in all the old myths and legends, etc. Now, that does not mean to say that they cannot become as strong as a man. I never ever said that they could not.

[The Saucepan Man]

As anyone who has read 'Brainsex' will tell you, men and women have different qualities. Women tend to score more highly on intuition and empathy than men, for example. Of course, that is an "on average" statement. You will of course find women who are physically stonger than some men, just as you will find men who are more intuitive than some women. There may be qualities that are required in your story that might better suit a female character. But equally, I would say that there is nothing wrong with having a physically strong female character. Properly written, the 'warrior princess' can be just as credible a character as the 'wise woman'. Indeed, both could be credibly combined in the 'wise female warrior'. I would see nothing wrong with a female Aragorn-type, as long a she was credibly written.

Although none of them, of course, would be able to read a map properly. :p :D

*Ducks flying objects*

[Niluial]

I agree with you completely Saucepan Man! Both sexes have different qualities like woman are more the mothers and the loving type while men are the protectors. As we have all said there are exceptions though.

Personally I like using men as main characters, rather then woman. I think it looks pathetic when you have some beautiful woman kill ten strong men, walk out of the fight with her hair in a bit of a messed and maybe a broken nail. It looks unnatural and odd... I agree with Imladris!

I find most heroines to be blithering idiots who think they can fight better, etc. Agreed...

[Nurumaiel]

The majority of my main characters are males.... actually, reviewing those books I have written, I can't think of one where the main character was a female. Setting aside, RPGs, of course.

While I have female characters in my books, they're never main characters. Perhaps the hero's mother, or sister, or sweetheart... I already mentioned this on this aywsf thread, but I'll say it again: the book I'm currently writing finds the characters in the midst of a war, and in the world I created (or rather, the world that created itself using my head) women just don't go to battle. Therefore there are only brief appearances of women in the book, though a little girl of about seven years old is telling me she wants to occupy a chapter or two... but she assures me not until the second book.

I don't think I'm that bad at portraying male characters, because in all truth the only females I know I hardly ever see (if ever) so it is much easier to pick up on what men/boys say, do, feel, and think.

I find most heroines to be blithering idiots who think they can fight better, etc.

I find most of them the same way, though of course there are exceptions (as had been said many, many times). For a beginner at creating characters I would say don't let your main female character ever touch a sword or any kind of weapon. When one is more experienced they can work out females that can fight, etc. but aren't the classic.... Mary-Sues? I've noticed that many beginners like to make their females warriors because they can do more exciting things, but they don't know how to handle it so they're original female warriors. Tolkien knew how to do that. Eowyn wasn't one of those blithering idiots.

When I write a female character they're just that... not women in pants with swords, with battle skill. They're like all the lassies I know (or most of them). Those who can sew and knit and weave, who are found in lovely dresses they or their mothers made with petticoats and long stockings (and who won't talk about them around men/boys, as I probably shouldn't be doing now :p ), who are patient loving mothers, faithful lovers, or sweet caring sisters. If the 'warrior' character is well done I don't mind reading it too much, but I don't write it.

And that's how I do it.

[alaklondewen]

I think some interesting issues have been raised on this thread, and I hope it will not turn feministic debate. I'm guessing that most of us writing fan fiction or in RPGs are placing our characters in Tolkien's world. Middle Earth is fantasy, but being thus it is still based in reality. Tolkien had a amazing gift of writing his world so that it became very real. If we say ME is based on Midieval culture, then we have to look at the social norms of that time on which to base our characters. Men and women had different roles...

With that said, I don't know whether I prefer playing one gender over the other. It seems to me that my characters write themselves. I read a proposal or get an idea for a story and the character is already there...needing to be written. All I have to do it put the pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard). My female characters are not fighters...they are soft, intuitive, sometimes catty. My male characters are all very different from one another, so I would not be able to categorize them.

I can say that I do prefer to challenge myself with characters that are diverse and all very different from myself (with the exception of one a year or so ago). I don't like to write characters like myself. It could be that I don't find my own experiences 'exciting' enough, or it could be that it makes me nervous to reveal too much of my own inner struggles through a character that is very much like me.

[Child of the 7th Age]

OK, I am going to throw a ringer in the works here by disagreeing with everyone. :p

The enchanting thing with fantasy is that you are the creator of a world, and you are also the one who sets the rules for that world. Why can't you have a world, for example, where women wield power and men occupy a subsidiary role? Or perhaps a world of Skinchangers where both men and women can morph into the form of dangerous beasts, and are therefore essentially equal?

Even in Middle-earth there is room for variety. It is true that Tolkien utilized women sparingly in fighting roles. But I think it may be short sighted to divide the world into those who fight and those who stay home, with nothing in between. If Gandalf had been looking for someone with brute force who was a miraculous fighter, he would never have picked Bilbo. In such a scheme, Hobbits would be useless! But he thought more creatively, and came up with a character who would have certain physical and cultural limitations placed on him.

When you stop and think about it, this isn't too different from the type of limitations that would be placed on a "typical" woman. Morever, it's precisely because of those limitations that many of us can identify with Hobbits. If I think of myself trying to emulate Arwen or Aragorn in real life, I practically roll over laughing. A typical hero or heroine, I am not! But a Hobbit who lives in a Burrow, runs around cooking meals, and fussing at his children a la Samwise....that I can understand .

Even if you create a 'conventional" woman character, there are many roles that he or she could take on: roles that require dexterity or the ability to conceal oneself; a quick thinker who can get people out of a jam, a mother protecting her young children, a woman gifted in music or a craft, or, of course, the wise woman who has deep knowledge of lore. The list is endless.

I enjoy depicting both male and female characters. But, to be truthful, I think I have more insight as to how a woman thinks and acts. I do like to "break" other stereotypes in writing, such as women who are older and/or unmarried, or pehaps with physical limitations, or extraordinary gifts of one type or another but not necessarily the gift of hack and whack! So perhaps, there is more room for female diversity within Middle-earth than first comes to the eye.

[Lhundulinwen]

Well said Child of the Seventh Age! Personally, most of my works, including my current project, is not exactly a middle earth world. It is not modern, ie- bows and arrows & swords, instead of M-16s, but there are things that are traditional fantasy creatures except they have a twist. (Shape-shifting Unicorn becuase of its status, half centaur half man, gets to choose shape.) So, why should I use sterotypical characters at all? Especiall based on gender?
My half centaur character is a male. But he's torn between two cultures much like animagrant (sp.). He doesn't have to be the fighting, or thoughtful man. He's going to be a different character by the middle of the book, and completely different by the end. He will have the chance to develop, and be a three-diminsonal character.
Sterotypical characters MUST grow and change in the story to be believable. Example- The spoilt kid from the Narnia series. (I can't remember his name- He was in the Voyage book) He started as the typical spoilt brat, but he became the noble hero type. If he had stayed as he was in the begining, by the end of the book, you'd want to chunk him out ofthe story, never mind if he's central to the plot.
My point is even if your world is more mideval, put a twist on it. That's what makes stories worth reading and becoming a favorite. I believe that the whole point of writing is to be original; even if its already been said, say it a little differently. Its the hardest thingin the world, but I love every minute of it. :D

[Amanaduial the archer]

Funny that this should be brought up - I was thinking about it the other day whilst devising a character for an RPG. (I shall stick solely in RPG terms for now).

I don't really consider myself to prefer either gender - I'm fairly relaxed to either one. But recently, I've ended up veering to male characters, pretty much completely! The last female I played was in 'Escape from Nurn' in the Shire, and much have been...well, it actually ended a good few months ago, anyway. But all the characters I'm playing at the moment and for the past few games have all been male.

Possibly this is because I originally ended up with a bit of a stigma with one of the moderators (you know who you are!) that I always played female elves or people with magical powers :rolleyes: I know, I know... so my first non-female character was somewhat experimental, after playing all my first games with female characters, and was the Easterling character Kane in 'Ride To The Dark Side'. (I don't include the hobbit character I played - he was a rather mischievous child and almost genderless!)

Incidentally, I found he was quite marvellous to play! Things which were much trickier to execute as a female characters were made simpler by playing a male - not really physical things, as my characters were never weak: they weren't Mary-Sues (honest!!!), but they were hardly weak. Believable though, and with a tendency to die... But also, it seemed easier to make Kane more introvert - by playing more on his feelings, for example in his relationship with one of the female characters (Rhana, played by Maikadilwen), I was able to make him a more unusual character. Strange, because it would be expected to exaggerate them more with a female character, but with a male it made him different. And since then I've played way more male characters, actually....

However, this is not a preference - it's simply what seems more practical at the time, for the specific RPG.

My characters do end up with some of my traits though, quite often - sense of humour, a slightly cynical outlook and, yes, green eyes, are quite often included in their bios :rolleyes: I suppose this is just because I like to put a part of myself into my characters - and this is my way of doing it.

[Sirithheruwen]

Personally I like using men as main characters, rather then woman. I think it looks pathetic when you have some beautiful woman kill ten strong men, walk out of the fight with her hair in a bit of a messed and maybe a broken nail. It looks unnatural and odd...

I agree with that...but who says they have to be beautiful, either emotionally or physically. Perhaps this person is wearing a hood, so no one can tell who she is for a physical disformity or she is pretending to be nice but is really evil? If that were the case that you posted above, I would probably have her die in the process of killing "ten strong men". Oh, I don't know... :rolleyes:

OK, I am going to throw a ringer in the works here by disagreeing with everyone.

Ahem...(And I shan't hesitate to quote myself either! :D )

Actually, when writing fantasy, it's all up to the writer. If you want women to be better than men, they can be. *shrugs also* Clearly, we disagree, but I will leave this at that.

Hmmm, Amanaduial the archer, most of my characters end up with green eyes too (excluding the story I'm sorking on right now.). I think more because I want green eyes than because I have them. :p

[Nurumaiel]

I do agree with what Sirithheruwen and Child of the 7th Age say... if you're the creator of the world you're writing about women can be fighters. And it always works for the writer. They have fun. But sometimes when the writer doesn't know how to work it out it becomes an immense torture for the reader, a person the writer should consider at least once in awhile if they intend to let others view it. If the writer doesn't know what they're doing the female warrior character can so easily become a typical Mary-Sue. But there can be female warriors that aren't Mary-Sues.

If you can make a believable female warrior character, well and good, and I'll enjoy the story. The only thing that remains is that I'd feel it was unnatural.

*cough* Skip this paragraph if you like, because I'm going to give one of my main reasons for staying away from writing about female warrior characters. I don't know if anyone knows what that means or not. It's because of my Faith. I believe men and women were made 'equal in dignity' but were also given different parts to play in the world. Niluial said:

Woman are more the mothers and the loving type while men are the protectors.

And's that how I've found it to be almost everywhere I've gone (except to the realms of Mary-Sue stories, or occassionally a good writer doing a female warrior).

Now if ever I came up with a story idea that had the need as a female for the main character, I wouldn't cast away the idea because of that. I'd write the book if the idea was good. I write females as main characters sometimes, but I just don't write females as warriors.

And I must add I'm not saying that no writer should write about female warriors (just stay away from Mary-Sues, of course), but I'm saying that I don't. It's just one of my preferences as a writer.

By the way, Child, what you said here

But a Hobbit who lives in a Burrow, runs around cooking meals, and fussing at his children a la Samwise....

was terribly sweet. Charming to think about. Hobbits just are simplicity.

[Durelin]

I will also stick to what I know, which is roleplaying:
I too tend to play male characters, and find it much easier to write as them. I would not say it is easier to write as a male character, but there is certainly something about it... Also, like Aman, I tend to choose according to the RPG, and what character types are needed. Since I tend to stick in the Shire, the many relatively new RPGers like to start out as a character that is their own gender. And since often these RPGers are female...males are a must! In many RPs, to get in on the action also demands a male character, for reality's sake.

I also consider the meaning of roleplaying. In my mind, the point is often to take on the role of someone completely different from you. It is a way to 'escape reality', I guess (I mean, I would find it quite boring to write about reality, at least concerning myself), as well as a way to take a different look at things. You truly do think about things your character is experiencing in a new light, and what the character is experiencing, if he/she is different enough from you, will be enlightening as well. I definitely have not experienced what it is like to be in a battle, but this is something I try to think about, and from my character's point of view (with his own personality, intelligence, background, environment, etc.), when the need arises. I expect it would be the same way when writing a story or a novel.

The fact is, though, men and women are both humans, and so their brains operate in the same way. Just because on average the male and female mind do not think alike, it does not mean that we can't cross over into the other train of thought, just to take into view what it is like. Hmmmm...that sounds kind of odd...

Although none of them, of course, would be able to read a map properly.

And that is why no members of the fellowship were female... :D

-Durelin

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Believable though, and with a tendency to die...

That happens to me a lot too. Them darn characters...they just run away and I have no control over whether they live or die! ;)

My very first RPG here (An Audience With the King), I played a male. Not just a male...a male dwarf. I remember thinking, "I'll be fine with anything as long as I'm not in the dwarf group!" Lo and behold, I was assigned to the dwarven group. With help, I got through it and by the end I found it rather fun to be able to play a rough 'n tumble, greedy dwarf, and I didn't shy away from male characters, even if most of my characters have been female. I'd say it's been rather even...I haven't been keeping track really...

In any case, when writing a story that has absolutely *nothing* to do with RPing, I usually have a female character, I'll admit. But I don't make them warriors or anything, I take them from real life and give them flaws (but not too many!) that, say, I would have or my friends would have. Not only that, I surround them with male secondary characters, most of whom turn out to be more loveable or more interesting than the man character! :eek:

-Aylwen

[Lhundulinwen]

In most of my short stories (and come to think of it, my novel) all of my warrior characters aren't warriors to begin with. Sure, I have had the occasional sociopathic assassin (which was a LOT of fun to write. Hey, Jade, if you read this- Edward RULES!), but all of my main character hero/warrior had to be thrust into the battle or action. Much like the hobbits, they did not start the actual war, and wanted nothing to do with it until it was dancing on their doorsteps.

Does that make a difference to your oppinion about female warriors? How about the idea of a world where male and female roles are switched? Just wondering. :cool:

[Child of the 7th Age]

It's strange how we seem to be focusing in on the narrow question of women as warriors rather than considering character as a whole in relation to gender and raising more basic questions.

There are lots of issues we could discuss, but I am especially interested in the question of what makes a female character "strong" (or for that matter a male character). How does a character grow and evolve so that the person you end up with at the end is different than the person you started out with? Is a particular character someone whom others can initially rely on or does she grow in that regard during the course of the story? I have to admit that I do favor characters who change rather than ones set in stone. And ability to wield a weapon is only one indication of a character's strength. There are a thousand different ways that a character can show her strength, and some of these may be even more criticial to the story: quick wits, specilized skills, emotional support, knowledge of the past, or just being a moral exemplar.

Whether or not a female character wields a weapon is at least partially determined by your chosen plot. If you are writing a novel with enormous numbers of battle scenes or continuous hand-to-hand combat with dragons and Orcs, and you want to utilize one or more women, you are likely to need to hand that character a sword. You could possibly place them in another role -- as a healer, for example, or a scout, or a handler of horses -- but you'd have to be creative about that. Nor does every warrior have to have the same degree of skill with weapons. In straight combat, Tolkien's Hobbits could not have been the equivalent of an Aragorn or a Boromir, yet they somehow managed to survive.

But there are many, many fantasy tales and epics where battle scenes and even fighting occupy only a relatively small piece of our attention. I tend to prefer that type of mixed storyline so whether or not my character can fight may be less important than many other things. In fact, of my female characters, I can only think of one who would qualify as a "warrior"(and that out of necessity). I had one older female character (my "Cami" alter ego) forced to defend several young children the best way she could who then "broke down" and was pretty shook up after she actually succeeded in killing someone.

Nurumaiel -- I do think it's possible to write interesting characters within the context of traditional ideas about gender: strong mothers, for example, or devoted daughters. I tend not to do this--I really do prefer women who rally against traditional roles and stereotypes, but that is an individual choice. Interestingly though, I'm not usually concerned about limitations that have to do with weapons or fighting. More likely, my character ends up going against what she is expected to do or be (expectations of marriage for example or even of physical appearance or of accepting the values her own people put forward.) Then I use the story as a vehicle so that she can learn more about herself and figure out exactly where her own path in life should lead.

We're all put here for different reasons and with different gifts. Finding out those reasons and exploring those gifts is part of the responsibility we bear. That's a personal belief that I do push onto my characters, at least the ones who 'feel' and act most lifelike.

Just one last question for anyone: are the attributes that make a female character strong the same ones that make a male character strong? Or are their inherent differences based on gender? My gut feeling is that there are gender differences, and those play into character and personality, even if you are writing a female warrior. Yet, I think we need to be careful about immediately assuming that a female character would do "X" or "Y" simply because of gender. Sometimes life is stranger than fiction! I once had a close friend who had spent several years in her life overseas as a tank commander. She was physically the tiniest and most gentle looking creature you could imagine. But based on her iron will, I can well believe that she commanded a squadron of tanks!

[Bethelarien]

Perhaps I'm an oddball, but....most of the stories I write, if not all, have at least two protagonists-- 1 male and 1 female. I am female, but I find it interesting and....exciting, I suppose, to write two such opposite protagonists, only to find that they really aren't opposite at all. True, men do tend to take on a more protectoresque stereotype--but as a writer, you can change that. Who cares if women are perceived as being weak or ornamental? As the creator of a world, you may make your society what you wish it to be, which is something I very much enjoy doing. Not necessarily giving men a subservient role, but making the two genders equal--TRULY equal--and describing what comes of it.

Just my two cents'.

[Nurumaiel]

There are lots of issues we could discuss, but I am especially interested in the question of what makes a female character "strong" (or for that matter a male character).

Child, Remember Corsairs and Corsets? In another thread (actually about warrior females, I believe) you came up with the idea of making an all-female RPG, but the characters would not be warriors. All the characters were so astoundingly different and each one became 'strong' ('cept the villains, of course; they lost power) without ever picking up a sword. My own character, Adrama, in example. When the game began she was very bitter because she had loved Denethor and she had lost him; she was rather spoiled, she was a bit immature, vain, etc... by the end of the game she had lost her bitterness because she had found herself a good husband who she loved more, she had grown mature through helping the poor good lass who was the sister and daughter of the two villains, and so on. I learned a lot from that RPG.

I do like to make my female character more of stereotypes... not in the sense that they're the same boring old characters that have been played thousands and thousands of times over, but they have the traditional roles. The two main female characters in my current works are Mérali, the sweetheart of the soldier lad who is the main character, and Érsin, a sixteen-year-old girl who came to the village in which the main characters live after leaving the life of the wandering people with her grandmother. Both the latter character and her grandmother wanted a life in a little cottage, sewing and knitting and cleaning house rather than wandering about through dangers.

They had practically no role when I first began to write the story, but just last night they chose one for themselves, causing the book to switch often between what they're doing at home and what the lads are doing on the mainland where the war is being fought. Chirfan, the main character, sets sail for the mainland to fight, taking with him two eleven-year-old boys, Tilaran and Haran (they haven't yet told me how they happened to go to a war at such a young age; all I know is that they do). The two boys leave behind their ten-year-old friend Geran, who naturally is rather lonely without them. Mérali becomes like an older sister to Geran, occupying his time with all sorts of little adventures in the village. Mérali also comes to be in charge of a school for young girls to teach them in studies of things such as history, mathematics, etc. but also in studies of faith. Érsin assists her in that. Later that school develops into a school for boys as well, as the boys have no other teacher; all the men teachers in the village have gone off to fight. And of course Mérali struggles as a teacher!

I begin to see things I didn't see before... Mérali is a warrior on her own little battlefield. She does not fight with a sword and shield, but she does fight. All characters do in the best books. They're all warriors of a sense.

The idea that 'strength' in a character means being a warrior is rather absurd, if you consider. St. Joan of Arc was strong, one must admit. She was a real official warrior. St. Thérèse the Little Flower, however, was a different type of warrior. She was the youngest in a family of five girls, grew up in a very sheltered way, became a Carmelite nun in her teens and died of tuberculosis in her twenties. Her life was extremely simple and 'little.' She did nothing grand and glorious as St. Joan of Arc, but still she was strong. She did the little things that are often so much harder to do than the big things. In example she never grew annoyed with those who spoke sharply to her, but rather treated them with more patience and kindness than anyone else. All things she did she did well, regardless of whether she succeeded or not. She was simple, but strong. She said herself, "I am not a warrior who fought with earthly arms but with 'the sword of the spirit which is the Word of God.'"

Therefore, dwelling on this, a writer should make all their female characters be warriors... yet these warriors do not need to fight with 'earthly arms' to be strong.

[Lhundulinwen]

Very nice post, Nurumaiel. I agree that all women (all characters, in fact) should be warriors in that sense. Actually, a lot of fantasy, excluding LOTR, do not have that many battle scenes. The characters you were talking about, seem to have a lot of opportunity to grow, and learn more about themselves and their world.
At least for me, to develop characters, you must have a strong plot generally with more than one problem. These characters have several potential problems they may have to deal with. For my characters to develop strongly, I generally make a mental list of all their flaws, physical, emotional and in relationships, and pick and choose which ones will be changed, or come to terms with, by the ending. I never change all their flaws, and sometimes I encourage them to make new ones, especailly if this character has been around a while (like in a series). All these changes I space out in the story, with some happening as a result of something and others gradually as the character matures.

[Eowyn Skywalker]

Perhaps I'm an oddball, but....most of the stories I write, if not all, have at least two protagonists-- 1 male and 1 female.
Not odd in the least, as, though my main characters in both of my main stories are female, there are at least one or more male characters to contrast them, and hold a main part. Like Tiana and Destiny... they both have their male contracting characters, to off-set the fact that they are female. Alenece has three other males with her, to contrast, though I intend on throwing in a few other girls later.

But it's not odd in the least to have more then one protagonists... I have done that all the time.

No, it's always a good idea to off-set girls with guys, and it doesn't have to be a romance either... so far I have... well... two characters in love, but not the main plot... the main plot is very action-drama type.

Girls are fun to write, but I always have a few guys in there well I'm at it... makes for a better plot line, I think.

-Eowyn Skywalker

[Orual]

Myself, my main project has a young man named Jules as the hero. However, though he's the narrator, one of my favorite characters is a young woman who meets him along the way.

With me, it's entirely dependant on the story. Some of my stories have female main characters, some have males. In Jules' case, I felt that he should be a young man. He has a sister who is a pivotal part of the story, and I felt that, were he a girl, he would understand his sister entirely too well.

Writing women is actually fairly difficult for me, if only because I have to struggle against the "tough warrior chick" prototype. One of the best heroines I've ever seen is--and don't laugh--Buffy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I try to model my heroines after her. She's a girl who kicks, but her being a girl isn't the most important part of her character. She's genuine and heartfelt, and cares about things that real girls care about even as she fights evil.

The important thing is the character. I don't think about gender much--generally, when I'm starting a story that'll go somewhere, the main character comes to me in a blinding flash of light. Okay, I'm lying, but wouldn't that be cool? I chose Jules because I felt I could make him a rounded, realistic character by bringing my own feminine traits to his character, instead of making him a stereotypical "macho" man. I think that everyone is a combination of masculine and feminine aspects, and that people are neither true simpering damsels-in-distress nor unflappable macho warriors with testosterone poisoning. Everyone is somewhere in between. I know a lot of young women who are aggressive, and a lot of young men who are sensitive. This is true of everybody. As long as you don't go overboard with reverse-stereotypes (i.e. all the women are warriors and all the men need saving), it's okay to mix-and-match with characters.

[Saraphim]

When I start writing for a character, I sort of let it choose its own gender. My little "world" that I'm staring to invent, is set in the future, which is a convienient time to set a story in because one can make things up without having to be historically accurate.

Anyway, in all of my little "storylets" (plots that are unfinished and vastly unwritten), men and women are equal.

I'll break it down further than that. Individuals are equal, no matter what gender, in everything that goes on. And it's not just on a lawful scale or anything, it's on a global, ingrained-into-the-conciousness scale. If you understand what I'm saying.

So, as an example, you've got Bob, Tim, Judy, and Nora. Nora is a weak person, weaker than everyone except Tim, who is lazy and couldn't fight a drunken fly. The strongest person in the group is Bob, not because he's a man, but because he's Bob.

Looking back over my post, not much of it makes sense, so apologies all around. It's the best I can do.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Nurumaiel,

Nice post! I think that we are actually saying the same thing only using different terminology. As I said before, whether or not a character (male or female) carries a sword is far less important than other things.

Strangely enough though, the image of a warrior or battler, even if we define it as someone who focuses on struggles other than the physical, appeals to me less than certain other images. I have always thought in terms of a traveller, someone who sets a foot out their door and starts down a Road. That was one reason I was so struck by The Hobbit when I first read it so long ago. Both Hobbit and LotR use this as a central image: being swept away by the Road of Life and having to face and deal with everyone and everything that life brings. I think that this pertains equally to both Men and Women, although the specifics of the encounter may vary. I try to incorporate that sense in each of my characters to the best that I can.

While we're talking about choices of "gender", I'd also like to raise the related question of "age". Have you ever used an "older" character in your writings, male or female? Just how old, and was that easy or difficult to do?

[Imladris]

I have only had one old personage in my writings and that was at the White Horse. I think he was about...eighty, I think? He was a grizzled old man who had lost an eye, had a bit of memory loss, and had a bad habit of talking in rhymes. But I had a terrible time with him because I don't know how an older person thinks. Virtually all my characters are teenagers... because...I guess I know them better. I'm more comfortable with them...I can feel them better.

I have always thought in terms of a traveller, someone who sets a foot out their door and starts down a Road.

In my mind, a traveller is stronger than one who is not, regardless of gender. Speaking of gender, I do not believe that spiritual strength (or strength of character, nobleness, honesty, etc) have anything to do with gender as gender is a physical attribute while those strengths are not. Thus, men and women are equal in that area.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Wow – what an interesting thread! Substantive ideas about the creative process, and I get to find out all kinds of interesting tidbits about my fellow Downers! :)

It didn’t even really occur to me until I started reading through these posts that I only ever – in the Downs – have written male characters. So far I’ve changed race (one Hobbit, two Men, an Elf and a Dwarf) and the characters have all been fairly different from one another, but I’ve not yet crossed genders (unless Balrogs have gender, in which case I might have been a female for the birthday party. . .) I’m honestly not sure why I have done this, since the only things I’ve attempted to write in the ‘real world’ (having begun and then abandoned two novels, and finished only one short novel) have had women as the protagonists. I did not really feel any difficulty in ‘writing’ women in those works, but in this forum I feel the need to inhabit the male mind.

I suspect that it’s perhaps the interactive nature of the Downs. In my own (thankfully abandoned) novels, I had total control of the reality, and thus there were no surprises. But here there are lots of surprises, and I find it more like acting than writing – I have to ask myself frequently, “How would I react to this incident” and then work through from that to “How will my character react to that?” It’s probably a lot easier for me to get from A to B without having to contend with the gender line.

But his raises a disturbing notion I’d not considered either (am I really this naïve? Yes, I’m afraid so) – the characters I’ve created in the Downs have without exception been rather flawed people; people whom, quite frankly, I like reading and writing about but would never want to spend time with. If these are characters that I can easily project myself into (or project out of me). . .yipes!!

Hmmmmm. . .anybody got a comfortable couch I could lie on as I write in this place. . .

[Sirithheruwen]

Heh. One of my posts on this thread got a negative reputation. (Post #15 or 16 I believe.) Wow, this reputation thing really gets one's curiosity levels high! ;)

But it's not odd in the least to have more then one protagonists... I have done that all the time.

Aye, me too. On the story I'm working on right now, I have four (female) protags. I just hope I'm going to have enough male supporting characters to counter-balance them so it doesn't sound so femenistic (sp?). *wishes*


Both Hobbit and LotR use this as a central image: being swept away by the Road of Life and having to face and deal with everyone and everything that life brings. I think that this pertains equally to both Men and Women, although the specifics of the encounter may vary. I try to incorporate that sense in each of my characters to the best that I can.

My story is kind of like that, but kind of different. (Wait, don't skip this paragraph, I'll clarify, promise!) She (Nen(na)) decides to leave on her adventure of sorts. She also doesn't think of herself as a "hero" of sorts, but someone who is going behind the scenes to gather all of the "heros" together to save Ola. She just happens to be one of the "heros". (Looking back on this paragraph, I probably didn't clarify much, did I? Ah well...)

While we're talking about choices of "gender", I'd also like to raise the related question of "age". Have you ever used an "older" character in your writings, male or female? Just how old, and was that easy or difficult to do?

Well, being very young myself (just turned 13) I mostly do write older characters, but not by much. I like to think that my work would be geared toward the young adult section, but I wouldn't mind if it crossed over a little bit into adult. My characters are usually around the 14-16 age range. It's not that hard to do, because, after all, it *is* a fantasy realm, and whatever I say goees! :D

Well, I think that's a long enough post for one day!
Happy Writings! :)

[Bêthberry]

Interesting idea, Child!

While we're talking about choices of "gender", I'd also like to raise the related question of "age". Have you ever used an "older" character in your writings, male or female? Just how old, and was that easy or difficult to do?

I have two "older"characters, one a man in late middle age whose youthful exhuberance caused him to be injured, thus forcing him to seek a very different line of work, as a map-maker in Minas Tirith; he had to learn how to give up his youthful wanderlust and impatience and learn how to accept a more sedate style of life. Then he was called upon to help a band of young warriors! Talk about getting into the saddle again! The other elder character I write is the rag lady Ruthven in Edoras, for The White Horse, in her sixties. I don't think I have found it difficult to play either character as I had a very strong sense of who each was before I ever wrote them. For both of them, the age was not a particular issue.

The oldest character I have ever written, however, was an ent, for the old Rohan game here. I loved that character because I could extend the entish style of speaking which Tolkien created.

One thing I suggested for gamers, when we started the White Horse Inn Act III, was to consider "aging" their characters the fifteen years or so between Act II and Act III. I am in the process of having "Bethberry" face a difficult time watching people who have no idea of what the War of the Ring involved. Her personal experience of the tragedies and struggles has left her with little of her lightheartedness and so I am trying to see how she handles this change. I'm not sure people are quite ready to understand how she has changed, as I am introducing this rather subtly.

Other characters I have written for have been anywhere between their twenties to their fifties. I guess the only characters I have not written for in an RP are children.

I do have an idea for a new game, though. I will get to play a "middle aged shield maiden". Well, the maiden part is not quite right, but I want to try for something like what Mathilde faced in her struggle to be declared rightful monarch, over Stephen, in England around 1140. I have found that there are many female characters in the Middle Ages who provide an interesting subject on which to 'build' a character, such as Lady Margaret Beaufort or Hildegard of Bingen.

And that reminds me of how how Chaucer 'created' his Wife of Bath. As a character, she has traits from several well-known character types in medieval literature, the most original of which was the cuckolded husband, transferred to a female character, whose fifth husband cheats on her. Not very Tolkienish admittedly, but still it suggests another way a writer has gone about creating a uniquely new character. She was somewhat deaf too.

Well, time to go find my 'rocking chair' and let some of the youngsters describe their elders. Alaklodewen has a mute teenage boy in Resettling the Lost Kingdom and now an elderly man who is blind. It was interesting to watch her desribe his movements and behaviours, to glean from those actions his infirmity was before she mentioned it outright. Fordim, you've written a grandfather. What was that like?

[Kransha]

Ah, genders in writing, a 'problem' or rather, and 'obstacle' which all writers must deal with.

To begin, I must admit that I share the one strange exhibition with Fordim. In the real world, in my volumes and writings, I have written more female protagonists and antagonists, as many as I have male, but here, in the RPG forums at least, I find that I get into character more with male characters. This is because I see through the eyes of a male, not through those of a female. RPing as a male allows me too get a little more loose with my character, rather than worrying about the indulgence of a stereotype. Someday, I will surely attempt to RP the fairer sex, but until that date, whene'er it may be, I am doomed to remain locked in this prison of unbridled masculinity (my, that...doesn't exactly sound right).

There is a lot to be had in dual-gender roles for play and game and story. The POV of each is the crucial, focal point, the thing that causes all writers subtle hardships (not all, but probably many). I admit again (more pangs of guilt pour moi) that I have been...how shall I put it, reluctant, to write some female characters. I was afraid of reprecussions, feminist revolts, mobs of random people with triangular bricks and whatnot, but I still write them. I have to carefully pick out their personalities from some illusionary hat, based on the stroy's needs. I hesitate to pursue anything that might be considered 'my picture' of females, and use people I know as examples to base them on. The female mind is no longer a mystery to me, as it once was (ah, those were the days), but I still have plenty to fathom. I could never reduce a gender or ethnicity to a single rubric of emotion, it would destroy my whole continuum with its bland conformity! So, in response, I let the pen go wild, so to speak, and see where my characters are headed. There are always roads to follow, each leading to countless forks and bends, but after the first few turns, the rest are being predetermined until the greatest one comes up, determining whether the character will reverse the course of every other road taken (too reminiscent of Robert Frost's [b]The Road Not Taken[/i], thar)

On the question of age, something I love to experiment with! I rarely right character is book or game that are of 'average' age unless it is required. I like mine to be eaither wet-behind-the-ears, or old and withered. Now, I make my old characters more vivacious than they ought to be and my young ones more mentally matured, so my experimentation goes far beyond stated guidelines. There is always another border as far as stereotype defiance. Sometimes old men can be grizzled, serious folk, merry, content old men, or stark-raving mad, senile dottards who have no idea where they are or what they're doing. Young men, boys, or those at the bottom of the proverbial hill, could be immature and vain, overconfident, haughty, arrogant, meek, shy, humble. The ages of drastic youth and drastic age most pronounce the emotional features of a character, either traits just developing and strengthening, or traits developed to their peak.

P.S. Shakespeare, and other great writers of his day and ours, who apparently understood somewhat what I try to grasp, gave me some inspirational examples. As plated in trait as they air, Juliet (young love, decisive [Romeo & Juliet]), Beatrice (feisty, arrogant, argumentative [Much Ado About Nothing]), Ophelia (tragic, unkempt, uncontrollable [Hamlet]), Lady Macbeth (corruptable, antagonistic [Macbeth]), Miranda (unexposed, naive [The Tempest]) all gave me some insight into the fairer psyche, though bearers of that pysche may disagree...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmm. . .the question of age is a good one. . .

Yes, I have written a grandfather (for those who do not hang on my every post with bated breath and abandon, I wrote an extremely elderly hobbit in the recently completed, greatly missed, "A Land to Call Their Own" -- *Fordim stands and gives Alaklondewen and Cami a round of applause*) and I must admit that I found Fordogrim Chubb not at all hard to 'get into'. I think that this was due to the fact that I merely observed that some older people tend to forego the niceties of 'watching what they say' and allowing themselves to say whatever they are thinking. Combine that with the fact that in my professional life (and here in the Downs) I am frequently confronted with situations in which I am the oldest person in the 'room', and I found it very easy to immerse myself in Fordogrim's world view.

It seems quite a failing on my part, however, that I could so easily take up the voice of an elder (how successfully I did so, I leave to others to judge) but I cannot face the challenge of writing a female character in this interactive forum (as I said above, I have written women in more static narratives).

Another interesting point -- it seems to me that the bulk of the writers in the RPGs would appear to be women: particularly as one moves into Rohan and Gondor. Is there something essentially 'feminine' about the RPG's (whatever that might mean?). I also note that the women in this discussion apparently have -- or feel they have -- less trouble moving into a man's perspective than the other way around. I wonder why this would be?

Just one more indication of Woman's inherent superiority over us??? ;)

Postscript to Kransha -- shame on you, man! How could you forget Cleopatra (Antony and Cleopatra), Kate (Taming of the Shrew), and Portia (The Merchant of Venice)?????

[Saraphim]

I try to stay away from having teenagers, or too many of them, in my stories. I look around, and there are very few teenagers at my high school who would be able to do the sort of things I want my characters to do.

So usually, my characters are in thier mid-twenties or early thirties. I know that's not exactly old in any sense of the imagination, but, on a general scale, they are usually a tad bit wiser than most teenagers.

A tidbit about your friendly Saraph: I don't like teenagers as a group. Individually, they're fine, but not in large numbers. So, this reflects into the age of my characters and the way they interact with others. i have problems not making them seem too old, actually.

[The Saucepan Man]

The enchanting thing with fantasy is that you are the creator of a world, and you are also the one who sets the rules for that world. (Child)

As the creator of a world, you may make your society what you wish it to be, which is something I very much enjoy doing. Not necessarily giving men a subservient role, but making the two genders equal--TRULY equal--and describing what comes of it. (Bethelarien) Might this depend somewhat on the skill of the writer, though? Although not a writer myself, I was wondering whether it might be more difficult, and require greater skill on the part of the writer, credibly to portray a world where people's qualities and relationships are significantly different from those which we experience in real life. Then again, in many ways, I would think that it is easier to write a credible story set in a fantasy world than one set in the real world, since one does not have to worry about getting all those 'little details' right, as long as it is internally consistent.

Fordim's post raises a similar issue. He said:


So far I’ve changed race (one Hobbit, two Men, an Elf and a Dwarf) and the characters have all been fairly different from one another, but I’ve not yet crossed genders … in this forum I feel the need to inhabit the male mind.

I suspect that it’s perhaps the interactive nature of the Downs. In my own (thankfully abandoned) novels, I had total control of the reality, and thus there were no surprises. But here there are lots of surprises, and I find it more like acting than writing – I have to ask myself frequently, “How would I react to this incident” and then work through from that to “How will my character react to that?” It’s probably a lot easier for me to get from A to B without having to contend with the gender line.It's interesting that you feel more able to react in your mind to situations as an Elf or Dwarf than as a woman. I would have thought that you and I would have much more in common, in terms of our approach to life and likely reactions to situations, with female humans than with Elves or Dwarves of either gender. Is this perhaps because an alternative psyche which does not actually exist in our world is easier to inhabit than one which does? Then again, every person is different and, unless your character is a facsimile of yourself, you will surely frequently find yourself having to think how someone with different characteristics than yourself would react to a situation. Child's question about people writing characters older than themselves is an example.

Or perhaps it is easier to write Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits in a Middle-earth situation because Tolkien has given us much of the information that we need in his writings, whereas the mind of the opposite sex often remains a complete mystery to us, even to someone like me who has been happily married for a number of years. :D ;)

[Nurumaiel]

The question of age... I write of no particular age. In my current work I have as main characters....

a boy of ten, left behind when his friends go off to the mainland
two boys of eleven, the aforesaid friends of the above
a young man of sixteen, who just barely gets permission to go off to war
a young girl of sixteen, who assists one of the other characters in building a school
a young man of eighteen, who also goes to war
a young lady of eighteen, who is the character who builds the school
two men in their thirties, older brothers of one of the characters, both of whom go to war
a man in his forties, who is a general in the army
and several other soldiers who are from their twenties to thirties

Quite a range of ages! No one older than fifty yet as a main character, considering the circumstances of the story.

Do I have an easy time writing them? Well, obviously I can't be all of them at once, so it is quite fortunate I know quite a range of people of all different ages. I note how they react to things and use that as a starting point... the things I take from real life I only ever use as a starting point.

What you said, Kransha, about stereotypes is very interesting. That is why I say that my female characters usually have stereotype roles. Their personalites are an entirely different matter! I like to write characters that have traditional roles but unique personalities. Someday I'd like to write a story with a boy character in it like Percy Wynn. More meek, humble, gentle, and kind than he is strong... contrasting deeply with the tendency of boys to try to appear 'tough' when they're at a certain age. Yet Percy is a boy... he plays baseball, football; he goes fishing and boating, and everything else! It's merely his personality.

Really must run now. I'm pressing myself for time here. :)

[Lhundulinwen]

Most of my stories are more of a 'coming of age' type of story. But the ages of my characters vary a lot. In my novel, the main characters, Adar and Acacia, are aprox. 18 years old. The leading male, Kado, is close to 20. Kado's father is 45-50. Then there is a unicorn who is 500-1,000 years old! I write her much like an elf, and Kado's father is modeled after many of the men of my father's generation. The main characters and Kado are all written after me and my friends. But since I have never been 45, or 1,000, I think it is harder to write those characters at times than Kado or the main girls. I have to think harder about how they'd react, or if they'd react at all.

[Imladris]

On the matter of age:

I was reading this thread and it suddenly struck me: age is a good deal more than just time: it is also a matter of muturity/experience -- in fact, I believe it plays a greater part than time. Eighty year old men can be as immature as teenagers while teenagers can have the experience of eighty year old men.

Doubtless that is not often the case...but it's still something to think about in my mind. Kind of like Frodo and how he aged during the journey to destroy the Ring. He became older, wiser...What I'm trying to say is that age has more to do with personality than it has to do with years.

If I may be so bold as to take a quote of Child's :

Yet, I think we need to be careful about immediately assuming that a female character would do "X" or "Y" simply because of gender.

and change it to,

I think we need to be careful about immediately assuming that a character would X or Y simply because of age.

[Eowyn Skywalker]

Saraph said:
I try to stay away from having teenagers, or too many of them, in my stories. I look around, and there are very few teenagers at my high school who would be able to do the sort of things I want my characters to do.

I am on the opposite end there, as, though most teenages that I know shouldn't be able to do half the things that I need them to, regardless of gender, they aren't all straight out teens. I'd almost say that the ones that really are teenages have an extra amount of wisdom as they go through the story, which comes from their upbringing. Yes, I have had to change characters ages, because a thirteen year old girl couldn't be the world's best female spy thing, so I am working on editing her to become around mid twentys. But many of my charactera are teenaged, at least in looks, and have to learn to do the things that they must, at least, in that aspect (sp?) they are like to teenagers. But there is a reason for their added wisdoms... but I'm not bringing up that plot point, because it's a main part of my story, and I don't want anyone stealing that idea...

...they are usually a tad bit wiser than most teenagers. (yeah, more from you, Seraph...) Ha. That's a laugh. Most of my older characters aren't exactly the wisest characters out there... half of them are Han Solo's, over daredevils, etc. And others are wise, very Aragorn type, but they never show it... not all the time. It's the younger ones who can come up with wisedom, but, as I mentioned, they aren't EXACTLY young... but then, some of my middle aged characters have nearly killed off the teenaged (yes, teenaged... not teenager...)characters, and not just because she's older and stronger... being middle-aged does give some more wisdom. But still, the teenaged characters can think faster, and more on the spot, which gives them an upperhand... even though most of them are girls, again.

I don't like teenagers as a group. Individually, they're fine, but not in large numbers.
You'll never survive my main story then... an awful lot of younger characters. Okay, NOW I'm done with the quoting, now I shall get to my comments... my own...

You bring up ages in human years, and such, but what about say, elven kind? Think of the elves, they age differently, at least in my worlds. So, an elf could still think like a teenager, with the hastiness, and such, and be around thirty years of age. So, do not be so quick to assume that, just because they have lived longer, they are wiser. And not all teenagers will be overly hasty and such... there can be quite wise teens. And females. Not all females cannot read maps, I am quite adept at it, for a female teenager!

-Eowyn Skywalker

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm not normally a fiction writer, so my only experience of character planning and writing is on the RPGs here. Way back in the old Rohan RPG, I jumped in to take over an abandoned male character, since there were already enough females involved in that story. I found it quite difficult to write for him, since both mentality and actions did not come easily to me.

I wrote two cameo characters that were both females and seamstresses - I find it easier to write characters that have both the gender and a profession familiar to me when I don't have much time to get into the character.

Now I'm writing two characters in an RPG, a mother and son - she middle-aged, he not quite out of his teens. I find the question of age less problematic than the personal characteristics - I can identify with the young man's openness and curiosity about life and foreign countries better than with the scheming and hard-hearted mother. I took on that challenge to expand my writing and thinking horizons, and I think it's a great idea to try different characters.

...and then there's my parody RPG, where interestingly, there are more male writers than females - wonder what that signifies??!!

[Sirithheruwen]

I try to stay away from having teenagers, or too many of them, in my stories. I look around, and there are very few teenagers at my high school who would be able to do the sort of things I want my characters to do.

I think, when you are writing for a teenaged audience, that you might want to make your characters (or at least your main ones) a little younger. Such as, early to late teen through about mid-twenties. I know when I read fantasy, I (personally) prefer characters that are near to my own age, but not always. *coughLordoftheRingscough* If you are writing to be published, always always always think of the reader.

...they are usually a tad bit wiser than most teenagers.

(Yes, I'm quoting everything Eowyn Skywalker (Ha. I didn't forget the "Skywalker" ;) ) quoted. So sue me. :p ) The characters in my story aren't a "tad bit wiser that most teenagers" from their world, but they are considerably more "wise" than teenagers in our present time and day. In a nutshell, they're more mature than present-day teenagers, but in they're world they are still considered young and incompetant (sp?).

Well, I'm done.
Happy Writings! :)

[Kransha]

You know what? I do believe I've had an epiphany (hair-raising, I assure ye)!

This whole thread and its tree-reminiscent branches stems off the same, semi-essential question of 'variety,' dare I say it. The thread was originally a simple question of gender in literature, but it has been diverted towards queries concerning age and other variations of "normality." Now, I don't believe that the phrase "normality" exists, since no one is purely normal, but that doesn't mean than the concept of "abnormality" does not. Hear me out here...

We've been talking about the persona of female and male, young and old, and so forth and so on. The whole question is: how do you interpret something that is different, or perhaps similar, or a touchy subject, into literature. Let me pose another example here, based on an RPG I'll be playing in soon (Ha! I fit a shameless plug in this post!) What about, say, this?:

There was a brief discussion in this thread of dwarf and elf playing, female and male, young and old, as mentioned. What if you had to put more depth than just simple, stereotypical, static monster personality into...a dragon! Think on The Hobbit, if you will. It's a question of race, rather than gender, but that's where the discussion leads. It's not a tangent, but a more advanced form, slightly reversed, of the original question. How do you put yourself into the shoes (or scales) of a dragon? Tolkein did it expertly. But wait, there's more! What of other members of the non-humanoid sect. Dwarves, Elves, Gondorians, Numenoreans, Rohirrim, all have a different persona, which is often a bit stereotyped in itself, but what about a fox? A tree in Fangorn Forest? A giant spider at the pass of Cirith Ungol? A Wather in the Water? What about genders, eh? What about species? What about planes of being? It can get into, quite literally, playing god (read: Valar).

Now, stem off again! Does a female giant spider, Shelob or Ungoliant, think differently from a male (not that there are any male giant spiders, but what if?) Wait, I've got a better branch for that. How does an ancient, great grandmother of a spider: Ungoliant, differ in mind and thought pattern from an old, but comparitively much younger and weaker spider: Shelob. Are they both driven essentially by the same resolve, or was their something that was different in their grand designs. Surely they weren't exactly the same. Shelob was content to stay in the confines of Cirith Ungol and eat the food that came along. Ungoliant, on the other hand, refused to be satiated until Morgoth himself was being digested in her ample belly. I'd say there must be some difference, no matter how subtle. Ungoliant lusted for vengeance, obviously a more adapted sense of evil in her old age, but Shelob only sought food, unless that want was what drove them both. Maybe I'm trivializing the matter by using spiders as 'food for thought' (forgive me, I couldn't resist), but it has to count for something...

Do tell me if my tangent is utterly irrelevant, confusing, and senseless...

P.S. to Fordim: Great Caesar's Ghost! How could I have forgotten?

[elronds_daughter]

i'm a writer, (haven't writen much yet...) but i must admit that i have never differed from having a female as a main character. possibly because i originally design my main character to be based on me, but i always, without fail, change her to have a totally different personality than me. however, after reading all these lengthy ;) posts, i've decided to try to vary from my steriotypical "females-in-every-leading-role" and try to put a guy in a leading role for a change... it'll be a pleasant challenge. i've never written any fantasy either, but i'm working on a fan fic... that's an equally pleasant challenge. i've never tried writing a guy before. yeah, as i look back at the few things i've written, i'm finding that all my guys either are the boyfreind of the main girl or are just people i threw in for minor roles and equally minor purposes. it'll be quite an experience to try to put myself in his shoes. if anyone has any suggestions about overcoming the steriotypical "guy-from-a-girl's-perspective" please pm me. i need all the help i can get. :p

:D cheers!

Elrond's (other) daughter

[Audreidi]

No, no, Kransha, your tangent is very interesting...(rubs chin thoughtfully)

I can say, truthfully, I don't have an inclination toward male OR female characters. I find a wonderful way to tackle the issue of the gender of my main character is to sort out traits I wish for them to have, what I think I need the story to include. For example, I'm spinning the beginnings of an original fantasy piece together at the moment. First I decided my protag's traits, like how they interacted with others, how they carried themselves, etc. Then I threw in what I thought to be a sufficient amount of wisdom and knowledge. Based on these things, I decided their age, and finally their gender. I made young Ilan to be a somewhat impetuous seventeen-year-old, but he could have just as easily been a middle-aged mother striving for the same thing (the point of my story, which I will not yet reveal).

Something that will help a writer IMMENSELY is playing the opposite gender in a dramatic production. I took on the role of a male hero in a play just a little while ago, and I learned much about the mind of a man, so to speak. ;) Now I'm able to write a male character more confidently, and if I get stuck I usually base them on a man or boy I know in real life, to get me started. My dad has some traits that I often employ when creating a middle-aged male character, and that helps greatly to make the person more realistic.

[PaleStar]

It depends on the talent of the writer whether their characters turn out horrid or not.
I tend to make all my lead protaginists female. In fact, in the story I'm writing now, the female protaganist will end up being trained in sword-fighting and actually kill a few people effectively. This may seem more realistic for a male, but, I tend to not conform. :D
Hopefully, it won't turn out horrid, but my point is this; regardless of gender, race, or age, it's your talent that determines how real and plausible these characters are.
So throw out the 'heroines are blithering idiots' thing. I've seen plenty of male 'heros' that were as stupid. In fact..*picks up cruddy heros and heroines and tosses them into a fire* There...let's begin anew, shall we?

[Eowyn Skywalker]

But that's the point, you see, is the female is TRAINED, as you say, PaleStar. Females can do such things, I know I can, but in a book, if you write the perfect heroine... out comes *theme music* Mary-SUE! That was my mistake with my first book, is I now realize that the main character was a way out Mary-Sue, main CHARACTERS actually, not that there was any romance, and they needed new names. Because the names they had just added to the Mary-Sue effect.

But then, one also has to think of species, and so on. A female Wookiee COULD tear someone's arms off... however, a female HUMAN could NOT. As usual, I can come up with Star Wars examples, snrk.

And, there's also the issue of age. No three year old guy is going to be adept with a sword, even though it's a guy... not even a three year old Force-sensitive is going to be adept with a sword. There are just so many angles a person has to conceter (sp?) unless you really are actually looking to write a Mary-Sue!

-Eowyn Skywalker

[VanimaEdhel]

I typically go for female characters when I write fantasy, as I am a female. However, they are usually not really warriors and the like. When I first started role-playing, especially, I frequently made the mistake of Mary-Sue'ing - as many of you will remember when I started Role-Playing here about two years ago. My characters usually have an element of me in them. It is actually typically one of my flaws, to be honest, but every now and again I sneak in a good trait from my own personality. In terms of looks, depending on what I'm writing - Middle-Earth fanfic, fantasy from the own worlds I've created, or some other type of fanfic - I usually go more towards bland normalcy of the race. For example, if I'm going for Tolkien Elf female, I typically want her to have dark hair and grey eyes, whereas if I'm doing something from my first world I created, the people typically have rather dark skin and lighter hair.

When I do write from the standpoint of a man, I have a hard time not making him really, well, feminine. The part of me that typically comes through in my characters is an overly feminine set of emotions. I try to tone it down, or at least change the focus of the emotions a bit. While obviously men are sensitive - some even more so than women - it doesn't quite seem right to have him stopping to go through a very feminine sequence of emotions. I try to think of the thought processes of some of the more sensitive guys I know, and try to keep that the extreme. But you know, as I am missing that Y chromosome, I think it's always going to be harder for me to write from the point of view of a man.

Although I have not done so yet, if I do at some point write a story about a woman that's a fighter, I will probably only have her either using a bow and arrow in "army" combat, or only fighting opponent women. Perhaps I'll even have her die at the hands of a man in the end. When I've written about stronger women (they haven't been fighters), I usually subtly point out at some point that she's not as strong as a man. I mean as much as feminists say, "A woman can be just as good as a man", due to body configurations, while a woman may be swifter and gain the upper hand in that way, we're not really built to best a strong man in a show of brute strength. Unless of course you were to create a race in which the women did happen to have more strength than the men: if that were the case, then you would be fine.

On the aforementioned topic of age, my characters' ages usually translate to...oh about twenty-five to thirty years of age. Every now and again, if I'm doing a story that allows it, the character can be younger. If it's a story that doesn't really involve the physical training and maturity of the character, but they are more observers, then I could go as young as I want, really. For example, I'm sure someone could do a very interesting story from the point of view of, oh, say a young ten-year old spoiled (or not spoiled) princess kidnapped for ransom. Go through the kidnapping, and the time with the captors, then eventually describe the people that come to rescue her, and the journey home. At ten years of age, the child wouldn't really be doing much, but would be able to at least mostly grasp what is happening. One could even do first person later looking back on the events. Third person would also work. Very rarely do you see stories about victims, but I think that if one wrote it, it could be very interesting.

Yes, I'm brainstorming as I write here. :rolleyes: Forgive me: I'm in eternal Brainstorm Land...also known as Up In The Clouds by most people.

That's another thing. For writing, if I just hear words that sound odd together, or someone uses some odd metaphor or reference, it gives me ideas for stories or even poetry. It usually transforms completely by the end into something unrecognizable, but just the spark gives form to everything else.

[Araréiel]

I always use males as the heroes. Just something...not right...about females saving the world. Okay, so Eowyn was cool, but masculine. And what man reading a piece of writing wants a manly woman? And what woman reading fantasy wants to read about a woman rather than a man she can fantasize about? (You women out there know it's true!!)

I usually make the heroes good looking (okay, downright hot), but unsure of themselves, desperate to prove something, even if their "places in society" are high-born. And they have women and stuff. And servants because I make a society. Stuff that doesn't make sense bugs me.

[PaleStar]

Not to get into an issue, but there is nothing wrong with a strong heroine, though so few authors are able to create them without delving into Mary-sue land..a very, evil place.
If you don't believe me, read Ella Enchanted. No, don't see the movie, read the book; Ella is possibly my favorite heroine in books, except Eowyn. *sighs* there just aren't that many to choose from.
Age, gender, speicies, race, they all matter; say, to use Eowyn Skywalker's example, what if a three year old demon( in the asian sense of the word) child were to pick up a sword?
All this stuff is part of what makes writing so hard.

[VanimaEdhel]

I always use males as the heroes. Just something...not right...about females saving the world. (Araréiel)

Well, firstly, as long as you do not make them Superheroine, it can be quite an enjoyable read. Also, who says that the protagonist has to be an in-your-face, save-the-world heroine? Writing about females could even involve, as I mentioned earlier, one involved in action, but does not really end up being the number one hero of the story. Today, I actually picked up The Pillars of Creation. Now many people do not like Terry Goodkind - even I will be the first to admit that he can be downright frustrating every now and again - but in this story, one of the major plotlines follows a girl, Jennsen. She is supposedly skilled with a knife, but it is not as though she ever takes on five heavily-armed men on her own (so far, I only read the first two-hundred pages today). Although she is supposedly attractive, it fits due to her heritage. Other aspects may seem rather cliché, such as her being an illegitimate child, but Goodkind even blends that into the story rather well.

At the same time, though, while a sense of normality is necessary to a hero to make them human, we all have to add something to them that makes them even able to do what they are doing. Just to be the hero of a fantasy story, there has to be something that makes them unique. I mean it's not as though John Doe in Fairytale Land is going to randomly pick up a sword and decide to save the world. If he is a normal person, usually it's a remarkable event or catastrophe that makes them take action. Sadly, the "your father isn't really your father," "mysterious men are hunting you," and "it's your job to save the world because you have mysterious powers" excuses are overused in my opinion these days. And while modesty is an admirable trait, the "why me?" stubbornness of modern heroes is rather annoying. I mean to dwell on it for a chapter or two is all right (actually a natural shock reaction), but when you've read three series in which the hero is like that for at least four seven-hundred-page books of the series, it gets old.