Green as a representation of evil

[Joy]

Has anyone noticed the theme in Lit where the color green represents evil?


In LotR, it is used a couple of times (Minas Morgul, Paths of the Dead, and in the Dead Marshes.)

In classic Lit we see this in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight as a repeated theme.

Here is something else (though a later date). Green was the favourite color of Napoleon and the green wallpaper in his exile home in St. Helena became his undoing. His premature death was not the work of a poisoner but was caused by the noxious fumes emanating from the bright green wallpaper.

Discovery of the pigment emerald (Schweinfurt green) in 1800 further worsened the repute of green as the color of poison. Emerald was prepared from verdigris and copper arsenite to result in one of the deadliest poisons ever used in painting.

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So this color paint did emit very toxic fumes.

Often in comic book and cartoons, we see "stink" by green fumes.

Why is this and when did this begin??

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Lastly, what other instances do we see in Tolkien's work of this??

[HerenIstarion]

Probably - green mires = dangerous place
Still more - green mould on rotten things = danger of decease

But not all green is pernicious - the 'greenery' is often (and more so with Tolkien) as a symbol of wholesome place/situation/thing

Nice to see you back, joy, dear :)

[mark12_30]

Hi, Joy! Interesting question!

In a sense, all green things grow from something else that is dead or decayed. Without leaf mulch, your green trees wouldn't be green. Without decaying grass, the new grass wouldn't be so healthy either.

Forests are green, but good.
Fields are green, but good.
Swamps and meres are green-- but icky.
Underwater moss is green, but icky to step on.
Rotting food is green, and definitely icky.

I think I'll stop there for the list.

What other colors in LOTR are ambivalent?

How about black? Isn't it odd that the Guards of the Citadel are robed in silver and... black? And the tower of Orthanc, whick was built by good guys, is black.

How about White?

Gandalf the White is good.
Saruman the White is slipping fast. The White Hand is bad.
Minas Ithil started out white and good. Now it's green, sickly, yuck. And (interestingly!) there are white flowers in the river that comes out of Imlad Morgul that are evil, stinky, nasssssty. Bad flowers??? Hello???

Red Flame is ambivalent too: Narya is good; Orodruin is bad. Flaming Roggie is bad (Oh, how about just misunderstood and persecuted?? :( )

But back to the Green...

Food for thought. But I'm wondering if the key isn't in the concept of good vs bad decay-- perhaps unnatural decay or wrongful decay? Poisoned decay? And therefore contamination. More later.

[Imladris]

You know, I never really realized that before, especially since green is the colour that makes us feel relaxed and comfortable.

On the subject of mold: mold itself isn't inherently bad. Basically, it's like the process which mark12_30 has pointed out about the grass.

Bilbo's door is green, and he was a good guy. Of course, you could also refute that point by saying that Bilbo was the Ringbearer of Sauron's Ring, which had an effect on him, making him feel like butter being stretched over to much bread, etc... :rolleyes:

So maybe green is an ambigous colour, used by both bad guys and good guys. The Rohirrim, also, had green banners.

Half formed thoughts here...like mark12_30 said, more later.

[HerenIstarion]

Bibo's door was painted green before he became the ring-bearer

On the other hand, it was painted green just before he went away on a journey which, eventually, led to his becoming the ring-bearer. Sinister, that...

Definitely aftermath of reading Dan Brown (not that I agree with his conclusions, but still) recently in my case - seeking hidden symbolism in quite innocent things

[The Saucepan Man]

According to studies that I have seen, we are conditioned to react with disgust against certain colours that occur in nature (such as green and yellow) in certain circumstances (particularly, as mark 12_30 says, when they are slimy or sticky green), because they are associated with disease. For example, we are less likely to want to touch a bowl of sticky green liquid than a bowl of sticky blue liquid. Blue, since it occurs rarely in nature, does not evoke such a strong reaction. Here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/surveys/disgust/index.shtml) is a fun test which makes the point.

Of course, green also represents vitality, again because it is a natural colour. So, we are told to “eat our greens” because they are good for us. And I am sure that I am not alone in deriving great pleasure from the image of sunlight on leafy trees. Also, in international signage, green represents "go" or safety, whereas red represents "stop" or danger.

So it is ambivalent, but it’s more likely to provoke a bad reaction in situations where we don’t expect it. Also, the shade will make a difference, so the pale dull green of Minas Morgul (as captured well, I think in the RotK film) will seem threatening. But I imagine the green of Rohan’s banners and Bilbo’s door as a pleasant, vibrant green.

Green can also represent danger, in that it is used by some predators (amongst the reptilian and insect worlds) as camouflage. Perhaps Old Man Willow falls into this category. :D

[symestreem]

Green is found as a representation of good in the colors of the Rohirrim, the Elessar, Bag End as Saucepan mentioned, and various other devices. I think that the ambivalent colors indicate that anything can be used by the enemy.

[Mablung]

I think The Saucepan Man hit the point.
...it’s more likely to provoke a bad reaction in situations where we don’t expect it.

Green leaves or green grass are ok, but green fumes are not. And like mark12_30 says, it's the same with any color.

Black clothes are fine, but the all-black darkness of the black riders is something odd and scaring.

And Saruman's white is not a real white any longer. It's made from all colors, and it's some kind of the optical illusion. Very unusual at the Third Age, a long long time ago...

It surely was peculiar to Sir Gawain to meet the Green Knight. But the Red Knight or the Pink Knight would have been the same thing. All the real medieval knights were actually rather gray, I think. The synthetic colors was made up much more later. And before that there was not a way to color brightly.

Sauron, of course, was a master to demonstrate his might by producing the things unnatural.

[Kransha]

I think The Saucepan Man hit the point.
It surely was peculiar to Sir Gawain to meet the Green Knight. But the Red Knight or the Pink Knight would have been the same thing. All the real medieval knights were actually rather gray, I think. The synthetic colors was made up much more later. And before that there was not a way to color brightly.


If you don't mind me singling you out, I'm going to use that statement to make a point. I DO NOT believe it would have been the same thing. The Green Knight and his decapitation challenge was a technical representation of nature's two sides. There is intimidation in the vastness, the hugeness, the looming anarchy of the dark forests, then there is the natural order and peace in nature; the wisdom in the Green Knight's lethal test. In Tolkein, these two things coalesce again. Treebeard and Quickbeam are that calm, strong, wise, and orderly aspect (albeit somewhat forgetful) while the general ominousness of Fangorn, Mirkwood, or Old Man Willow make up for the evil, dark, chaotic greenery.

On the matter of color in general, there is a lot of profound use of color on heraldic devices, which is exhibited in Tolkein as well. White and black and red can be considered evil, but White is probably not, referenced to Gandalf. In fact, the rainbow of the spectrum, one of the most beautiful alignments of color there is, could be designated as evil if we use "Saruman of the Many Colors" as an example. I find that there is some darkness in green, but light green is a color that frequents the Shire and Rohan, along with browns, yellows, blues, and other colors. Maybe green is a representation of "Dead Stuff" if I may put it bluntly. Barrow-Wights (not our esteemed admin, of course), Dead Men of Dunharrow, Dead Marsh ghosts, and the home of the Wraith King, all have that green tint. Maybe the polar opposite of 'happy green' is 'recently deceased green'...which could well be why all the text on these forums is green...or is it? I've been looking so long I hardly even know anymore...Must revamp color-blindness, precious.

There is the different shade aspect. Rohan Green is grassy, Shire Green is vibrant, Morgul Green is lucid and pale, plenty of variations of a single pigment.

[Bombadil]

but colors are also interchangeable in the Star Wars movies.

Such as X-wing fighters, and ships of the good shoot red lasers. While the TIE fighters, and dark ships shoot green, but the color of darkside lightsabers is red, and one of the colors of good lightsabers is green. This is an example of how it can be interchangable.

Ironic it is that with all the evil green about, Sauron seeks to destroy all good and green. I believe it just goes with the connotation behind it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Interesting thoughts Joy, and good to see you.

Whoops! I have to admit that green is my favorite color. I'm not quite sure what that says about me.

I have always thought of green as the color that most closely represents "life". I truly don't think of it as the color of death and dying, but associate it with living things: green, leafy trees; lovely flowers with strong green stems; the placid green waters of a lake, etc. I've always thought that was why the Hobbits favored green and yellow clothes: the color of the earth and the color of the sun mixed together. But then, perhaps the social scientists never applied their tests to Hobbits, since they obviously didn't dislike these colors!

Since life has two sides --good and bad, perhaps that duality also applies to the color green as well.

Interesting, Saucepan Man that you would pick out blue as a color that carries naturally "good" connotations. The minute you said "blue", a variety of negative images and words flicked through my mind: "blue" babies, a person turning blue as he gasps for air, and someone with chattering teeth in the dead of winter who is so cold that he looks blue! Perhaps I am unusual in this regard. Then again color associations may be a very personal thing, and no one can predict how someone will react to a particular color. (Quite often, as others have noted, it is the shade of the color that provokes a response, rather than the color itself.)

The thing that's always struck me about Tolkien is that he does not use one color as always good and another as always bad, which we sometimes see in other works and films. This is very true in his usage of black and white, colors that are often represented in a one-sided manner.

[Saraphim]

What about the Green Dragon? Best ale from far to wide, I hear. :smokin:

Seriously, this topic is interesting. Typically, one thinks of dark colors as being "evil", but when I think of poison, the stereotypical image I get is one of a bright green, steaming stew.

And when people are ill to the stomach, they turn a sickly green, don't they. And I can't imagine anything more evil than a stomachache.

What about the Barrow-Downs itself. Being Downs, of course, they are green, but how evil are they, filled with wights and various specters and such.

The color of our font here is green, as are the t-shirts, one of which I own. Now, this is not an evil place, one of the finest places I can think of, on or off the web.

So, green can mean a number of things, as can any other color, I suppose.
Weren't the Stormtroopers in Star Wars dressed all in white?

Green is also my favorite color. That's why I wear my BD shirt so much! And I'm as evil as they come. :D

[Mad Baggins]

Another non-Tolkien example is from the Chronicles of Narnia. In The Silver Chair, the witch often turned into a green serpent. Plus, she was formerly known as the White Witch.

I agree with Kransha about the different shade aspect. The green of Minas Morgul was somewhat sickly and pale; the Shire green is, as he said, vibrant and bright. Morgul green is depressing, yet Shire green makes you happy.

[The Saucepan Man]

Since life has two sides --good and bad, perhaps that duality also applies to the color green as well. For me it's more that green represents both the vibrancy of nature when it is alive and the decay of natural things when they die. That, to my mind, forms the basis for the colour's duality.


Interesting, Saucepan Man that you would pick out blue as a color that carries naturally "good" connotations. The minute you said "blue", a variety of negative images and words flicked through my mindWell, blue is my favourite colour, so I'd best stick up for it. ;) Yes, there are negative connotations, but there are positive ones too. I find a clear blue sky, for example, most uplifting. And, in Tolkien's works, blue is the colour we associate with Tom Bombadil. But did you take the test that I linked to? The blue liquid and the blue stain certainly provoked less disgust in me than the green ones.


The color of our font here is green, as are the t-shirts, one of which I own. Now, this is not an evil place, one of the finest places I can think of, on or off the web.Then again, the theme of the Downs is death so the green and black imagery seems quite fitting.

Another thought. Green is associated with jealousy and envy. Not sure how that fits into the discussion though ...

[HerenIstarion]

Green is associated with jealousy and envy

That's even more interesting! Whom by? :D

[Lhunardawen]

Very interesting thread!

Originally posted by HerenIstarion
Definitely aftermath of reading Dan Brown (not that I agree with his conclusions, but still) recently in my case - seeking hidden symbolism in quite innocent things
The Da Vinci Code, I presume? :)

Originally posted by Mad Baggins
Another non-Tolkien example is from the Chronicles of Narnia. In The Silver Chair, the witch often turned into a green serpent. Plus, she was formerly known as the White Witch.
I was supposed to quote this when I read the first post. The witch is called the Lady of the Green Kirtle, and she turns into a green serpent. And the archenemy in the earlier Narnia books is Jadis, the White Witch.

As for the color blue, the word itself may be used to mean sad or lonely. Something negative, indeed (at least for me). Then again, a lighter shade of blue such as sky blue can be very relaxing...

The duality of the colors enumerated just shows how open-minded Tolkien can be, instead of stereotyping a certain color as a representative of good or evil.

[HerenIstarion]

Da Vinci Code indeed

As for blue now - In Orthodox Church art blue and gold are colours associated with heaven. Hence I wondered once as of Blue Wizards connotations - those to 'set up mysterious cults in the East'

But Ithryn Luin in themselves are ambivalent - for one thing, there is notion of them 'failing', but there is no sure knowledge, and mysterious cults set up by those are curious thing - perchance those were supposed to form opposition to Sauron in the East?

[Lhunardawen]

But Ithryn Luin in themselves are ambivalent - for one thing, there is notion of them 'failing', but there is no sure knowledge, and mysterious cults set up by those are curious thing - perchance those were supposed to form opposition to Sauron in the East?

Unfortunately nobody knows (maybe Tolkien himself does, or maybe not) what happened to them as they passed to the East, but as this might be a possibility, they might also have been ensnared by Sauron, used for his purposes and vanished from Middle-Earth history (and the books as well).

[Evisse the Blue]

Quote:
Green is associated with jealousy and envy

That's even more interesting! Whom by? As in 'green with envy' :D
As for blue now - In Orthodox Church art blue and gold are colours associated with heaven. Hence I wondered once as of Blue Wizards connotations - those to 'set up mysterious cults in the East' Interesting. Do you imply that Tolkien had this in mind? But Orthodox religion can hardly be hinted at as a 'mysterious cult', IMO...

[HerenIstarion]

Do you imply that Tolkien had this in mind? But Orthodox religion can hardly be hinted at as a 'mysterious cult', IMO

Not sure if I do, but there always is a probability. Maybe, why not.

Mysterious cult maybe one which is secret, and, but it may be one which has 'mysteries' as part of its rituals, and Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Church alike have Holy Misteries as the central pillar, physical and spiritual manifestation of their belief.

It may have been even 'mysterious' in a sense of 'unknown', 'strange', as Orthodox Church would inevitably be seen by a Catholic Tolkien (members of both holding genuine belief that the other one is erring in its ways). And such a belief implies that way of one or another is true only, but erring one fails.

Hence (and thing to follow is utter speculation) the wizards (i.e. members of angelic order) with the colour associated with the Orthodox Church, which is in the East of our [Christian] world, go to the East of ME and are 'mysterious' = 'strange and unknown', and probably fail.

PS Credit to J.R.R.T for that 'probably'. Be my speculation true, such an allowance witnesses for his tolerance in the matters of ultimate importance to him

[HerenIstarion]

Thank you Evisse, the expression was unknown to me. But I'd rather associate is with facial expression, which may be pale when person experiences strong emotions like jealousy rather than with the colour in itself :)

[Lhunardawen]

I've recalled another negative connotation for the color green...with respect to a person's mind. Is someone familiar with it? I'd rather not mention it myself. :)

[Selmo]

Quote:
Green is associated with jealousy and envy

That's even more interesting! Whom by?

Shakespear links green with jealousy. In his play "Othello", jealousy is refered to as "that green eyed monster".

In mediaeval mythology green represented nature; wild, uncontrolled, mysterious and not to be trusted. Green was worn by ladies of doubtful reputation (as in the song "Greensleeves") and was very rarely used in heraldry.

[HerenIstarion]

Thanks, Selmo

I must confess I haven't read Othello in English, and can't remember monster of the kind mentioned in translation, But that is why BD is so good place to mince around - it is enlightening :)

...whom but my lady greensleeves...

What about 'scarlet women' concept?. When such a shift of colour, from green to its exact opposite, took place and why?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

In mediaeval mythology green represented nature; wild, uncontrolled, mysterious and not to be trusted. Green was worn by ladies of doubtful reputation (as in the song "Greensleeves") and was very rarely used in heraldry

Hmm, that sets me thinking about Rohan. Not to be trusted? I don’t think it would apply in that case.

As for Bilbo’s green door, let’s not forget that Gandalf saw Bilbo as having grown somewhat stagnant. Perhaps he shut that green door on the outside world and was happily moldering life away in the comfort of Bag End.

This question seems to deal with whether Tolkien used color symbolically or as an emotive trigger.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Ah, it seems that white was so simple and singular; now, we have all these colors to contend with! It's like the electromagnetic spectrum of the Tower of Babel, isn't it? Perhaps someone who has read Splintered Light could shed more "light" on this thought, but I suppose the wisdom of Gandalf would apply here: He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom. Also, on the "green" theme, didn't Frodo's face turn a livid shade of green as he lay poisoned by Shelob, just before becoming fair again? As I recall, Sam saw this green shade and gave up hope for Frodo, but then, when his back was turned and his thoughts on what should he do, Frodo's face regained the fair hue when Sam wasn't looking...ah, the irony!

Cheers,
Lyta

[davem]

In folk tradition green was the colour of the 'fair folk' (fairies/elves) & wearing it without their permission was considered to be a provocative act, & anyone who did so risked their wrath. Conversely, anyone who was granted such permission - like various poets & visionaries was considered to be both specially blessed & more than a little 'suspect'. I suppose they were a kind of traditional version of the 'Elf-Friend'.(ie Thomas the Rhymer, or Thomas of Erceldoune, or True Thomas, a real person, was traditionally given a coat of green cloth by the Fairy Queen, along with the gift of prophecy - 'The tongue that cannot lie' - in return for his service. Thomas is an interesting character, & was associated with both William Wallace & Robert the Bruce. He was responsible for a number of prophecies which later came true - whether he really got that gift from the Fairy Queen is a matter of opinion, though).

http://myths.allinfoabout.com/feature32.html

[HerenIstarion]

just before becoming fair again

Seems like thing to stress on.

[Kransha]

To be honest, green and its 'brethren' in the color spectrum. In the olde days (ah, I miss 'em so), there was a great deal of importance labeled in colors, primarily in the days of yore that share a literary chromosone or at the genetic level with our friendly neighborhood Professor's work. Namely, the Middle Ages and beyond. Primarily on heraldic devices, which frequent Tolkein, who goes into detail about the heraldic device of most of his pro and antagonists, colors were all but crucial. To be more poignant, there was always a good and a bad side to those colors too. To cite some examples from literature and generic culture.

For Green itself: To fence for the pro side, green is a representation of constancy, luck, fortune, happiness, merriness, and the like. Blue is a color of royalty, regalia, nobility, but that has downsides. It is more regal and less powerful. As the color blue lacks the strength and prowess to survive eternal, like resolute brown, the strong color of ancient trees. Purple is significant of mourning, almost entirely negative, as is black, which signifies death, but black also contains power, as death does.

Green's examples: The aforementioned line in Othello, said by Iago, I believe "that green-eyed monster, jealousy," the typicality of green in nature, either anarchic or beautiful. In Edmund Spenser's "The Faerie Queen" each character and challenge faced by the unamed brave knight is a representation of some evil. One of his first foes was a monstrous she-dragon, who bore 'a sickly hue of green and gules about her;" when she was slain, her serpentine children spouted from her hewn neck and were "a ghastly green seen in the muddy blood surrounding." In Middle Age nobility, green was a hindered color. Joan de Arc of France, if you've heard the tale, was able to deduce that a man parading as the King of France was not, since he was wearing green and yellow, not royal colors in France, which showed the real monarch that she was not mad, since she knew of such things. What about, the most obvious; but, here comes another tangent.

GREENLEAF! (Pardon my all-capital diversions) Tolkein references, my friends! And here, the blade is twice-edged too! Greenwood the Great was once a thriving, happy realm of Silvan Elves, but then spiders and Nazgul and orcs came to it, and it was renamed Mirkwood, but it was still green. Legolas Greenleaf himself bears the color in his name to further our purposes. He is surely not evil, and fights for another good aspect of greenery. Green is a common color in Tolkein, very common. It is often paired with another color, though, which is what makes the difference. Hobbits wore "bright clothes, of yellow and of green," a very merry pairing (no pun intended). Rohirrim were of greens and brown, more rustic and equestrienne colors. Morgul green is paired with black, in my opinion, since I always envisioned Mordor to be a black, grim place, with that sickly green as an augmentation.

[THE Ka]

Green as evil?! WHOA! i must be far behind in the times. I thought green meant you were a genius... well, maybe you could be genius/evil... like me....

Other things green is associated with: Earth elements, luck, fertility, healing, balance, empolyment, prosperity, courage, agriculture, changing direction or attitudes.

But, if you are thinking about a greenish-yellow it is closer to evil, ( if that is what you consider is evil or negitive): to negate discord, sickness, anger, jealousy.

And of course white: purity, protection, truth, meditation, peace, sincerity, justice, warding of doubts or fears. These are some things associated with white. This is why i think the tree of Gondor is called the "white" tree of kings...

Well, i done giving a metaphyscial lesson... i don't think you'll find any of this information surprising... :( :rolleyes: i think i have a babbling tendency on the downs...

[THE Ka]

Yay! my 100th post!!! cake and cookies for everyone!!! sorry, i'm just happy... :smokin: :D

so, here's some more color info:


silver: lunar magic, meditation, psychic development, success, balance, wards negitivity... this also is another color associated with Gondor... hmm, starting to see a pattern?

okay. i'm done now... :D

[THE Ka]

As in 'green with envy' :D
Interesting. Do you imply that Tolkien had this in mind? But Orthodox religion can hardly be hinted at as a 'mysterious cult', IMO...


hmm... maybe he saw the color blue like this...

blue(light): healing of any kind, pyschic awareness, intuition, water mysteries, understanding, quests
blue (dark): dreams, change, meditation, water elements, impulse

Ponder, ponder. think, think. But, when it comes to Orthodox religions they are as mysterious as their Dravidic and Aryan ( also known as early pagan) religions because they are strongly linked to each other... and borrowed alot from each other... okay, i will stop here before i write a whole essay on the Dravidians and Aryain sub-cultur expansion over India, Europe, Eastern africa, Mediterranean and other areas...

[Joy]

Thank you for your replies. This has been a very enlightening discussion.

Saucepan Man - that was an interesting test there. A little gross, but interesting!

[Sharkû]

The real question is, do all of those many, many interpretations of the colour green which have been mentioned here bear any significance towards Tolkien? Is green really the colour of the Quendi? And if so, does it make them seem dangerous or even evil?

[Kransha]

The real question is, do all of those many, many interpretations of the colour green which have been mentioned here bear any significance towards Tolkien? Is green really the colour of the Quendi? And if so, does it make them seem dangerous or even evil?

Ah, but there is my point 'in fact,' so to speak.

To reference the above paragraph written by yours truly, my opinion holds that the obvious presence of green in the different medium descriptions of Tolkein and its presence in his names outright must say something. Legolas, being Greenleaf, is inevitably good. Greenwood the Great was good until its 'greenness' started to evaporate, thus becoming Mirkwood. Dol Guldur, the citadel of evil in Mirkwood, was set upon the hill of Amon Lanc, which is described as being "bare of trees" and presumably other greenery; it is, after all, called Amon Lanc (read: Bald Hill). I would have to do more research about the Quendi themselves, but I think that there is a certain level of good and evil in most colors. Green isn't inherently evil, but, like a lot of things, can be corrupted. Forests are good, containining wise ents and beauteous trees, but also scary, referencing their ominous vastness and Old Man Willow. Similar with the 'green as a representation of dead stuff' theory. The Barrow-Wights, for all intents and purposes, are just plain bad, but the Dead Men of Dunharrow were corrupted by good (an odd statement). Both sides.

P.S. Someone refresh my memory, were the Dead Men of Dunharrow actually described as green? Or is that just another cinema-induced assumption I came to?

[Bombadil]

In re-reading the Sil, i came upon a quote of green things:

Green things fell sick and rotted...

this behavior occurs after Melkor contaminates much of Arda with his hatred. This would imply that green had an original status of good, and was given a bad connotation by Morgoth- which goes for all that once would have been. Thus, my theory would be that since Melkor was only able to create in mockery of light, his evil affect on green would never match the intensity green could have for light.

[HerenIstarion]

by Kransha

Someone refresh my memory, were the Dead Men of Dunharrow actually described as green? Or is that just another cinema-induced assumption I came to?

Movie thing, no mention of green in the books. First they are described as 'shadows of men' and 'pale', and then thus:

And lo! in the darkness of Mordor my hope rose; for in that gloom the Shadow Host seemed to grow stronger and more terrible to look upon. Some I saw riding, some striding, yet all moving with the same great speed. Silent they were, but there was a gleam in their eyes. In the uplands of Lamedon they overtook our horses, and swept round us, and would have passed us by, if Aragorn had not forbidden them

and thus:

But Aragorn halted and cried with a great voice: “Now come! By the Black Stone I call you! “ And suddenly the Shadow Host that had hung back at the last came up like a grey tide, sweeping all away before it.

Grey is the word

by Bombadil

Thus, my theory would be that since Melkor was only able to create in mockery of light, his evil affect on green would never match the intensity green could have for light

you have the point there.

[The Saucepan Man]

This would imply that green had an original status of good, and was given a bad connotation by MorgothWas Eru's original plan (per HoME) that everything (Man, animals, plants, the whole kaboodle) would be undying? If not, Morgoth cannot have been responsible for all of the colour's negative connotations, as there would still have been death, and therefore decay, without him.

[Guinevere]

Quite right, HerenIstarion !!
"Green as a representation of evil? " :eek: That idea would never have crossed my mind at all!
I've never heard that green is associated with jealousy and envy. In German the expression is "to turn yellow with envy"!
And green is the colour of hope! I believe this to be so in several other countries as well. (as I remember from the "Hope & Hopelessness" - Thread )

In Tolkien's works I think there are many more examples that green signifies something good than something bad. I think he must have liked green very much, just as the Hobbits did.

Think of the Elfstone (Elessar) and its healing powers! It is green like the sunlight shining through the leaves of trees.

And Frodo's vision of the undying lands: "... a far green country under a swift sunrise"

(Does it surprise you if I tell you that green is my favourite colour? ;) )

[HerenIstarion]

Good point there too, SpM

In later writings men [themselves, that is] hold that they were meant for life everlasting, but for Morgoth and the Fall of Men. Whether that implies that everything else was meant too, I can not tell for sure.

Should we invite Aiwendil and lindil in?

[THE Ka]

Good point there too, SpM

In later writings men [themselves, that is] hold that they were meant for life everlasting, but for Morgoth and the Fall of Men. Whether that implies that everything else was meant too, I can not tell for sure.

Should we invite Aiwendil and lindil in?


Tisk, tisk. Those men... ;)

[Neferchoirwen]

Almost a year ago, I took the liberty of signing up for an online class about Hary Potter, and there were discussion on the evil connotation of green. It's a pity, though that I wasn't able to save the lecture abut it, but I remember it being mentioned that a person born with green eyes being typecasted as evil in ancient Ireland.

I think green is as natural and as unnatural as it gets. The mere sight of green can calm stresses eyes, but veiwing under green lights is scary. I mean, I was brought up by cartoons whose villains were living in green-lit dungeons. What is more freaky than that?

I guess it depends where green is most fit to be seen, or, where we think green fits in the scenery.

btw, I tried SpM's survey of disgust link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/surveys/disgust/index.shtml), and it makes a lot of sense. Blue is associated with disinfectants, and so we are more likely to touch something blue that something yellow, which reminds most people of puss.

[Lobelia]

In folk tradition green was the colour of the 'fair folk' (fairies/elves) & wearing it without their permission was considered to be a provocative act, & anyone who did so risked their wrath. Conversely, anyone who was granted such permission - like various poets & visionaries was considered to be both specially blessed & more than a little 'suspect'. I suppose they were a kind of traditional version of the 'Elf-Friend'.(ie Thomas the Rhymer, or Thomas of Erceldoune, or True Thomas, a real person, was traditionally given a coat of green cloth by the Fairy Queen, along with the gift of prophecy - 'The tongue that cannot lie' - in return for his service. Thomas is an interesting character, & was associated with both William Wallace & Robert the Bruce. He was responsible for a number of prophecies which later came true - whether he really got that gift from the Fairy Queen is a matter of opinion, though).

http://myths.allinfoabout.com/feature32.html

All true and good stuff! I should like to add that in a mediaeval context, green was associated with poison, which actually applies more to Lewis than Tolkien (I think someone mentioned THE SILVER CHAIR? )Any Harry Potter fans out there may remember that in CHAMBER OF SECRETS there were references to 'poison green' (and green was the colour of Slytherin House). JKR is a lady who knows a lot about history, myth, etc. and uses cultural references in her fiction. But Tolkien doesn't seem to use any colour as strictly good or evil.

[Bêthberry]

Another cultural context. Or two.

In those opulent Renaissance religious paintings of the Virgin and Child, blue was the colour used for Mary, in accordance with the iconography of the time. There is a painting in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City which uses green to depict Mary and the painting most often is regarded as a failed attempt to represent her. Perhaps some enterprising New York Downer knows the painting and can expand upon this tradition. For the life of me, I cannot remember the artist nor the name of the painting. I just remember that one of the Museum guides directed me to the painting and explained the tradition wherebye its depiction has been regarded as a failed attempt and walked me around all the other painting which used blue.

In medieval times, colours assumed their significance of nobility or royalty due to the cost of the dyes. Purple and blue were costly dyes and could be afforded only by the wealthy. Hence they became associated with the upper classes.

And, yes, the song "Greensleeves" describes an unfaithful women, whose sleeves are marked by grassy stains from romping around on the ground.

Yet Tolkien clothes Goldberry first in a gown of silver and green, then one in silver alone with shoes shining like silver mail. Tom is clothed in blue but with green stockings. I'm not sure how significant these colours are, but the colours of the candles in The House of Bombadil, white and yellow, are the colours of the popes.

There must be some books on Iconography which would help us here but I don't have the references at hand right now.

[Joy]

Wow, thanks all. These have been really interesting to read.

I will go back and comment on some specifics later.

I am suprised that this got any response at all. It was just one of those things that came to my mind while re-reading Sir Gawain.

[HerenIstarion]

But Green Knight is not exactly evil, is he? He's fair, at the very least

[Joy]

Very true, H-I, but at first his character does seem evil.

Can this be the Chapel Green? Alack!” said the man, “here might the devil himself be seen saying mantins at black midnight!’”

This gives the impression of a aura of evilness around the Green Chapel and Green Knight.

BTW, I am glad to be back. I have never forgotten about you guys. This was my first Tolkien board. I have learned so much from you all.

I had to leave last year due to health again and this year have already been in the hospital 3 times (1 time for major back surgery).

I will try to stick around more this time. ;)

[Frodo Baggins]

Green Knight aside, the color green as an evil color was a rare thing to the medievals. To them, green was susally the colour of hope and new things. It's all over Dante. In the Valley of Princes on the mount of Purgatory two angels arrayed in green (hope) descent to defend those in the valley from a great serpent that comes. And also in earthly paradase atop purgatory dance the three theological virtues, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Hope is a green lady arrayed all in green.

It hink it is, however true that any color can be representative of good or bad. Green leaves, green moss, green grass are good things, green stuff that grows on decaying things is nasty and smells. Take another colour, red. Red is the color of love and passion, perhaps even royalty (though that's usually reserved for blue and purple) but red flags have often been a symbol of no mercy. When an army raises a red flag, it dosen't mean they love thier enemies it means (usually) "We take no prisoners".

Oh, by the way, the scarf the lady gives Sir Gawain to protect him from wounds is also green.

[Frodo Baggins]

Oh speaking of blue and the Virgin Mary. There was a time that blue was the color of virginity, so that may be anotehr reason why she is seen in blue often. I have also seen paintings of her arrayed in red.