LotR Reading Club

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

EDIT -- This idea has now been taken up by the mods and a new sub-forum has been created in the Books forum for a careful chapter-by-chapter discussion of The Lord of the Rings. Join the conversation!

~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@

I've done a search and cannot find that this has ever been done before. . .probably because it would be foolhardy to attempt it, but [deep breath]. . .

There is a lot of excellent discussion around here about Tolkien's works, but a lot of it does tend to take place in generalities rather than in terms of really close and specific attention to the works. What I am trying to do is to set up a LotR reading club that would go through the book chapter by chapter, and discuss it as we go. I do not propose to have formal questions or topics or anything of the sort, we could just discuss whatever intrigues us about each chapter as we go.

I've been thinking that it would be best if the club could go through the book one chapter a week -- but as there are 62 chapters, this would be a LONG undertaking. It doesn't mean that each member of the club would have to post each week, and there wouldn't be anything preventing new members from joining the club as we go.

At any event, if anyone's interested in starting a club like this, reply to this thread. If there's enough people to make a go of it, I will start a new thread called something like "FotR Reading Club" and we can start talking about "A Long-Expected Party" -- or even with the Prologue, come to think of it!

[Firefoot]

Sounds like fun to me. I'm definitely interested, and the timing works out perfectly since I just finished LotR for the 6th time yesterday. I hope there are enough people interested to start this. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the prologue, so maybe it would be a good idea to start there.

[Twilight One]

I'd be up for it. :)

[Calenedheliel1]

I would be very interested in doing this as it would give me an excuse to read the books again. ;)

[tar-ancalime]

That sounds like a great idea!

[Son of Númenor]

I love the idea, & would certainly be willing to participate. I do wonder, though, how organized we could keep such a club. Would members simply read the chapter & post their thoughts on it (or reply at random to thoughts posted by other members), or would there be a formatted discussion of each chapter? Knowing this forum, if there was no structure to the conversation, it could become pretty chaotic, & if there was too much structure people might lose interest. How could we find a middle ground for reasonable discussion?

[mark12_30]

*cringe* ....I signed up for lindil's HomE club, and fizzled VERY early...

But the Trilogy, now...

Lessee, 62 chapters; at one per week, that's a year and ten weeks. Only a little longer than the first RPG I played in... Two chapters a week? 31 weeks... 8 months? Or three chapters a week, 20 weeks, three months.

Must look at coming schedule.

Burarum, Hoom, Hom, Hoom.


EDIT:

Son of Numenor-- Estelyn will know. She handled Movies quite well.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Son of Numenor -- I was thinking that each Friday we would move on to the next chapter (giving stragglers the weekend to catch up on their reading if they want), and we could each take turns posting suggested topics for discussion on that chapter for the coming week?

Perhaps there could be a discussion thread to accompany the reading club thread (like in the rpgs) where we decide purely administrative things like who is going to post the discussion topics for the following week?

My preference, however, would be to leave things as open and fluid as possible. I think that if we stick to a fairy strict progression of chapters (that is, each Friday, no matter what's being discussed, we move on to the next chapter), and use gentle reminders, nudges persuasion to keep people focused more or less on that one chapter, this would be appropriate.

DELIGHTED by the positive response so far!

[Son of Númenor]

Sounds good to me. :)

[mark12_30]

If we started a new thread per chapter that would keep things nice and tidy. Maybe the Wight would give us a new room all our own? And it would give the discussion longevity even if Newbies joined later. Why ever close a chapter discussion?

[Imladris]

A most excellent idea! I'm up for it....give me a good excuse to read LotR...again. :D

[Lyta_Underhill]

I know theOneRing.net has chapter by chapter chats in their Hall of Fire, or at least they did. I participated in one-Minas Tirith (Book Five, Chapter One), so I could ramble on about Pippin a whole lot! There are logs of these chats by date on their Barliman's Hall of Fire page: Hall of Fire logs (http://www.theonering.net/barlimans/hall.html) And also a Yahoo group that I haven't been to in a long time did this: the lotr_inklings (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lotr_inklings/) . Their pages are public, so you can probably find their old discussions of chapter by chapter LOTR. I think they were going to do the Hobbit as well. I found some ages ago, a Yahoo group that was doing this with the Silmarillion, but I don't remember the name. The funny thing is that I'm almost finished re-reading the last two books of the trilogy again after starting in with the Uruk-Hai chapter in the Two Towers because I wanted to read about Ents on Earth Day and got sucked into the books yet again! But this is never a bad idea! :)

Cheers,
Lyta

[Mister Underhill]

This actually was attempted in the distant past here on the Downs. I was only able to find three of the five chapters that were posted before the project was abandoned, though there is evidence here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=351&highlight=chapter+party) that they all existed at one time.

Book I - Chapter 2 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1755&highlight=Book)

Book I - Chapter 4 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2388&highlight=Book)

Book I - Chapter 5 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2433&highlight=Book)

I link these as a curiosity only. I think it would be worth starting over and doing the read-along.

P.S. -- Isn't it interesting how the Downs' own history in many cases now lies in shattered, half-forgotten ruins? :)

[Kransha]

I believe such a thread (or series of) would be a great contribution to all those who wish to learn. Since all my yearly commitments have dissapeared suddenly (ah, summer), I would be willing to involve myself in this, though I don't consider myself a great scholar. Now, as said above, we would have to be very careful about such a massive undertaking. The first few members should be, at least, temporarily dedicated, since we wouldn't want the subject to fall apart a few chapters in.

We have good management, and outside encouragement, and, I daresay, a new and steady stream of apt newcomers to help us through. I think the topic could succeed, and be 'bookmarked' as technical reference material. Newcomers and learners, students of Tolkein, might join to increase their knowledge and voice their thoughts, or just stand by and watch to learn more. It would be a great experience for me personally, since I haven't actually gotten to discuss Tolkien with others who are comfortable with astute conversations about it or any other of that manner of desirable subject. Exhilarating indeed!

Let us hear what our esteemed Barrow-Wight has to say on the matter.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for those links, Underhill! I was just searching for the "Long-expected party" thread, with no success. Apparently it disappeared into the Void at some time.

I think a chapter-by-chapter discussion is a worthwhile idea and would suggest that a thread be opened here on the Books forum for each chapter. It seems to me that too much structuring would defeat the purpose, and I don't think it's necessary to have a new forum for the discussion. Newcomers could join in later, as is possible on all open threads here.

[mark12_30]

Hoooray! Esty, you da best!!!

**springle ring**

This time through the book I'm going to sing as many of the songs as I possibly can.

[The Saucepan Man]

What an excellent idea, Fordim. I have been meaning to re-read LotR, having not done so in a while. I was planning on working through the Silm and the Hobbit first, but then again I did read them more recently.

Only problem is I'm not sure if I'll be able to restrict myself to one chapter a week as when I finish a chapter I tend to want to plunge into the next one straight away. Still, I suppose there'll be no problem in doing a bit of reading ahead and, in any event, we'll be spending time posting our thoughts between chapters.

While discussion topics for each chapter are a good idea, I don't think this should be too rigid since people may want to raise other issues, themes, questions etc that occur to them while reading too.

Anyway, count me in. :)

[Kransha]

Yes, to support the idea of our Man de la Saucepan, I believe we (I say, 'we' in hypothetical terms, but assume that it is a 'we' community) should shy away from letting this become starchy, uninteresting. There is yin and there is yang, order and choas. To use the name-changing Fun Forum as an example, we don't want mayhem, but we might want a bit of mirth, or else we'll be faced with very dry discussion.

We shan't keep it too ordered, just ordered enough to serve, so we get past 5 chapters and deeper. I'm eager to see what kind of things will be discussed, in way of theme, metaphor, chapter-relevant language (can't wait for 'Treebeard' in TT for discussion of the nature of literary ents, or Tom Bombadil's ever versed symmetry in FotR), and etcetera. It seems like this could be a very rewarding experience.

Well, to put it simply, bluntly, promptly, curtly, and flummoxedly, I'm in!

Fordim, perhaps thou shouldst a list compile, of members fine and never vile?
P.S. -- Isn't it interesting how the Downs' own history in many cases now lies in shattered, half-forgotten ruins?
I believe Percy Bysse Shelley might have something to say on the matter.

[Mister Underhill]

Look on my posts ye Mighty, and despair!

....Not.

I think the key to success is the right pacing. Too slow, and people read ahead, soon outpacing the discussion; too fast, and people fall behind and give up. One chapter a week sounds waaaaaay too slow to this Ozymandias. If you could pace it out over about three weeks or a month, I think you'd be in business.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Wow. . .and again. . .wow -- what a great response. I genuinely thought that this idea would recieve a scoffing! (Can scoffing be used as a noun? Come to think of it, can it be used as a verb in the present imperfect?)

It seems to me that the success of this venture will rely on three things:

1) getting a good group of committed posters to form a 'core' from the beginning (as Kransha has pointed out) -- I would venture that at the moment it would appear as though we have that

2) getting the pacing right (as Mister Underhill astutely points out)

3) making sure that there is some kind of guidance to the thread, but not in terms of dictating subjects for discussion, only to keep the discussion on topic ("write about this blasted chapter, dol gon it!") and to make sure that the posts are more or less substantive (I had a peek at those earlier book club posts provided by MU and it seems to me that too many of them were of the "I like this chapter, especially the bit when. . " variety -- any book club must have room for this, but I think we all would like to see more substantive stuff come along with that. Perhaps not shockingly, there are some very interesting posts by Saucepan Man of the variey I envision, and at least one very nice one by my friend Alak).

In response to point one, I think that we can rely on the core talent of the Downs to keep the thing going, with an eye to making sure that newcomers to the converation are always welcome. To that end, I think Estel's suggestion to have a new thread in the Books forum for each chapter is a good one: much more welcoming and visible for newbies (or oldies who wish to join in media res). I think that if we come up with a standard "greetings this is what we're doing" first post that we use for each thread, that should allow people to orient themselves fairly quickly.

As to point two, I suppose I'd like to hear your suggestions. Mark 12_30 has floated some concrete ideas about timetables, and MU has weighed in with the opinion that a chapter a week is too slow. I myself think that a chapter a week is just right, as it will give everyone a chance to post at least once, and reply to someone else's post at least once. What is the opinion of the Barrow Downs community?

And for point three, I think that the guidance for the threads could easily be provided by that same core of posters who I refer to in point one above. Would we want to have a more 'formal' arrangement whereby there's a person or people whose 'job' it is to oversee the conversations? I don't like this idea much, but I put it out there for comment. I suspect that there will need to be a small group who take it upon themselves to post the new threads each week (or according to whatever schedule we decide upon) and answer the questions of those who wish to join the discussion but maybe aren't sure what's going on.

At any rate, keep the suggestions coming, and get out there to recruit people you think might be interested in this project!

By The Way -- I've always preferred the Victorians to the Romantics: Tennyson, in particular, just wipes me out:

Come, my friends,
'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in the old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal-temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Now that's the real thing: words you can eat with a fork.

[Lush]

Count me in, though I doubt I'll be able to post anything interesting until Summer Session I is over and I've gotten over my jet-lag back home (assuming no planes crash). An excellent idea, though.

[HerenIstarion]

Mr. U, can you convert old links (prior to UBB 3)?. Some two years ago, there was similar attempt (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=351), and than I have found all five discussed chapters. Starting with chapter 6, the discussion moved on to chat (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=3196) (on Saturday nights, it was, and not only LoTR, but a lot of other things too :))


chapter discussions were to be found here in ages past:

chapter 1 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000187)
chapter 2 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000193)
chapter 3 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000224)
chapter 4 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000233)
chapter 5 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000252)

[davem]

H-I

None of those links worked for me!

As to the project, I think it should start, as suggested, with the Prologue, & I would also suggest we include the appendices - how could we leave out The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen? Or the histories of Gondor, Arnor & Rohan, etc.

I would also like to include the two epilogues to LotR - anyone else agree?

[HerenIstarion]

They were not supposed to - they come from the time prior to our upgrade to UBB3, that's why I asked if moderators were able of finding out modern corresponding ones

[Firefoot]

1. Pacing - I agree that 1 week per chapter sounds good. It gives everybody time to read the chapter and post at least once, and it also gives enough time for a discussion to get going. If, like Mr. U points out, people think that only 1 chpater a week will get slow, the only thing I can think of is that we are always doing two chapters at a time, maybe staggering it, so that you are still giving a week per chapter but you have two chapters a week. I don't like this idea, as I feel it won't be as enjoyable as when you are concentrated on one chapter at a time.

2. I think we should do the prologue, and parts of the appendices might be good. I don't know about doing all of them - The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen I would say we should do, and some of the Histories might be interesting. Maybe we should mostly focus on Appendix A if we should decide to do this? The other thing - what are the two epilogues to LotR? Are they also known under some other name? Because I'm not sure that I've read those.

3. I don't like the idea of a 'formal' arrangement - some individual jobs like you suggested might be a good idea. Maybe in the first post for each discussion we should list some people that newcomers can PM if they have questions. I think just having some dedicated posters will keep the discussion on topic.

[HerenIstarion]

Council of Elrond is almost as big as 5 initial chapters. Should there be exeptions for bigger chapters?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

My Most recent record for reading all three books was two weeks, all 1200 pages... (You can tell I live an exciting life! :D )
However that leave much not deeply read, bits looked over and so on.

I think this would be the best idea for a tremendous work such as Lotr... What about, when this is finished, Silm? That may be more difficult as many arguments would be fought over little details... but that’s what makes it fun, and that’s what counts...

[davem]

Firefoot

Tolkien wrote two versions of an epilogue for LotR, which he didn't include in the finished work, due to friends (prob. Lewis) claiming it was too sentimental. They basically cover events after the end of the story, & centre around Sam reading from the Red Book to members of his family.

The versions are contained in HoME vol 9, & are quite beautiful. They're about 10 pps each.

[mark12_30]

On Pacing:

I submit that as long as there is one thread per chapter, then some may race ahead, and some may dally. First to the chapter, opens the new thread (or perhaps we should just name Mister Underhill the thread opener.) The discussion will proceed in fits and starts, and the lingering readers may benefit from the faster readers comments ahead of time if they wish.

As people's schedules change, they may find themselves discussing with different sets of people which would also be interesting.


Errr.... when do we start? (Book already double-covered and in knapsack... ....waiting.)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

OK -- so the pacing issue seems to be the most problematic. H-I raises an excellent point about chapters like "The Council of Elrond," a BIG chapter in more ways than one -- it clearly deserves and requires more attention than say "A Conspiracy Unmasked." I think Mark 12_30's suggestion about a staggered approach has the merit of allowing people to pace themselves, but I think it would probably get too messy and confusing too quickly -- not to mention daunting for those who weren't "keeping up" and (worst of all) it would spread out the posters among a bunch of threads, which would make it more likely the thing fell apart for lack of interest (better to have a core of 6-7 posters on each thread than spread out over several).

In order to address these concerns I have come up with an elegant (nay, brilliant!) idea. Rather than getting caught up on numbers of chapters per week, we should think in terms of chunks. That is, do sometimes a single chapter a week (if it's a biggie like "The Council of Elrond" or "Mount Doom" or "Shadow of the Past") and sometimes more (up to three or even four?) if they are shorter chapters or "lighter." This would have the added advantage of allowing us to decide how big a chunk we can do next as we go. Actually, I would see this as being the moderators prime function in the threads -- laying out the next chunk for the week. That way, if things are going really very well and we're bashing things out at great length, then the mod can move us through at one-two chapters a week. If things are slowing down, or if we're moving through issues that certain chapters don't really address, then we can pick up the pace (3-4 chapters a week).

The final advantage to this approach is that it would allow us to proceed in the discussions by paying attention to the structure of the novel, rather than its division into chapters; that is, we could discuss each 'bit' of the quest in turn -- rather than Chapter One, Chapter Two, etc it could be, Before the quest begins, the journey to Crickhollow, the journey to Bree, meeting Strider, the journey to Rivendell, etc (those are just hypothetical examples).

At any event, I think that there are still a few more things that need to be worked out before we can get this thing started, so hang tight for a bit, and keep the suggestions coming. I believe, however, that we should be able to get this thing on the Road (get it? get it?) within a couple of weeks at the most.

[Mister Underhill]

Know ye that it has been determined and decided this third day of June, the year of our Lord two thousand and four, that a New Sub-Forum shall be Established for the Organization of the sixty-odd Threads that shall Comprise the Chapter-by-Chapter Discussion. ;)

I'll do this soon. A moderator-to-be-named-later will be responsible for starting each new topic. I'm considering stickying each topic so that they will fall in proper order rather than being all jumbled up. The downside of that organization would be that finding newer posts might be more difficult. Thoughts and suggestions?

Your "chunk" idea is good Fordim, but there's something attractive too about sticking to the chapter-by-chapter discussion structure. Maybe we can take the spirit of your idea and apply it to said structure. That is, perhaps we can take a more flexible approach: say, no more than one week between chapters, but if discussion starts to look played out on any one chapter, someone can make the call and the group can move on to the next ahead of schedule. There are pros and cons here, too. If you don't have a set schedule, then you'll have to allow people time to actually read once you've made the call to move on.

My concern with the chapter a week pace is that discussion will go on for over a year. It's hard to keep any core group committed and focused for such a length of time. There's also the consideration that by the time you get to the end of the book, the beginning will seem a distant memory. The book isn't meant to be read at such a slow pace.

Here endeth the Administrative Notes.

[Lyta_Underhill]

When we did this on a mailing list (a bit different structure than the 'Downs), there was a signup list for all the chapters, and each member could sign up for an individual chapter or chapters. Then the person who chose the particular chapter would start the discussion with a long summary and then points of analysis/interest and then his or her favorite passages. Then the chapter was open for discussion. I don't know if this method would work here, but who knows? That would spread the responsibility for opening discussion on the individual chapters between many members. And I'm sure everyone has his or her favorite chapters in mind for in-depth discussion! It might yield some great treatises, not that there is ever a lack of those here! :)

Cheers,
Lyta

[mark12_30]

Chunks vice chapters... nobody has brought up number of pages yet, for which I'm glad.

Thinking the chunks idea over; if we defined chunks as sets of chapters, and gave free rein within the chunk-- Shire to Buckland... Old Forest to Bree... Chetwood to Weathertop. (You have walked 257.3 miles... nevermind.) People will still fall behind, though, and some will sail west in a month. How long per chunk? A week? Two weeks? Who defines the chunks?

I do think that the threads-by-chapter idea is most natural. Mister Underhill: I think recent posts will still show up (even if stickied) in reverse-chrono order under "Active Topics"-- true? Would the threads be stickied in Ascending or Descending order?

I'm not so sure that a chapter discussion will EVER close. I can't picture chapter discussions landing in Haudh-En-Ndengin? That's why I'm not so worried about tightly pacing the group. Stragglers will be under no penalty of any kind, and will (actually) benefit from everyone else's observations if they read the chapter-thread BEFORE the chapter.

Lyta-- treatise, thesis... I daydream about taking (or giving!) classes in LOTR, this is as close as I've come yet. Glee!

[mark12_30]

Mister Underhill, looking at The Shire-- to me it looks like Pio's stickies are still sorted by last post. The stickys are sorted at the top, and then the unstickied threads are sorted below them. So if you stickied them ALL, they'd still sort by last post?

Right now Resrources for RPGs thread is at the top-- but it's a year old, and there are others created since; it's just the one with the most recent post in it.

EDIT:

In order threads: The threads within a sub-forum can be sorted by title by clicking on the header "Thread". (Ascending or descending.) As long as the naming of the threads follows a sorting-oriented convention, the threads can be put in order by name, or most recent. Quotes and strange symbols seem to sabotage the sort order though.

[Mister Underhill]

Yeah, the sticky idea was not a good one, especially in light of members' ability to sort the threads to their own liking -- thanks for pointing that out! We might consider stickying the "current chapter", but these are niggling little details compared to larger questions like pace.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Take a look at the top of the Books forum main page, people - Mister Underhill has set up a brand spanking new sub-forum for this series of discussions! *Applause, applause, applause!!! Kudos to Fordim for getting the wheels turning for this project; it promises to generate very interesting posts!

Background planning continues; as soon as everything's ready to go, we'll let you all know.

[mark12_30]

Rah-Hoom-Rah!!!

[The Saucepan Man]

While flexibility is key, I think that we should devote at least a week to each chapter, whatever the length of the chapter. Although the chapters themselves will not take long to read, the process of reviewing the comments made by others, posting your own and then responding to subsequent posts where necessary will take up quite a bit of time, especially with real life to contend with too. Also, if we all post our thoughts within a day or so of reading and then move on to the next chapter, it will be difficult to get a discussion going on any one chapter (in the sense of responding to and developing issues raised by others). And personally I would prefer to concentrate on one chapter at a time rather than be flitting between multiple chapter discussions (again given time constraints imposed in the real world).

Mister U, I take your point about the length of time that this will take. You are quite right that the book was not meant to be read at such a slow pace. But I don't see that this necessarily needs to be a problem. We have all read the book at least once before (and most have read it many times before), so we have a good idea of where each chapter falls in the general scheme of things. In addition, there is nothing to stop people reading ahead if they want to and then going back to re-read the specific chapter coming up for discussion.

Maybe its just because I am someone who takes a long time to formulate posts of any length and substance, but I do think that we will get a better discussion going if we concentrate on each chapter individually and allow everyone time to collect their thoughts and react to what others are posting. That does not preclude flexibility, but an underlying structure of one week per chapter (and longer for the longer chapters) seems good to me. There will of course be some overlap in any event as the discussion on previous chapters continues, but this shouldn't be allowed to constrain the development of the discussion on the current chapter.

As for the idea of "blocks", I would again prefer to stick to individual chapters, although I am sure that ideas will carry across from one thread to the next as recurring themes and ideas developed from one chapter to the next come under discussion.

Finally, I was quite enthusiastic about sticky threads when the idea was first raised, but I can see the problems. Still, it would be quite nice to have the option of putting the threads into chapter order. Is there any way that this can be done while still having the option to have the chapter currently under discussion at the top?

[mark12_30]

Saucie, Yes. You can sort on the header called "Thread"--It's yellow; it's a link-- at the top in a forum (any forum or subforum.) You can sort in Ascending or Descending order.

All those headings are links; so you can (for instance) find the thread with the most replies, or the most views; or the least... etc. Usually the lists are linmited by the posts for thelast week unless you go to the bottom and edit your options.

[The Saucepan Man]

But that won't necessarily put them into chapter order because the latest post won't necessarily be on the latest chapter discussed. Is there any way to create a new column for the chapter numbers which could then be clicked on to order them (ascending or descending)?

[Nurumaiel]

Here I come running in, hoping I'm not too late! Why didn't I notice this before? Besides the enjoyment and the opportunity to read LotR again, I'll also be able to do at the same time the character notes I promised Helen at the beginning of Friends of Nimrodel. Do you remember?

I will be immensely grateful and relieved if I am assured I am not too late to become a part of the 'club.' *little bow*

[mark12_30]

Nuru-- Yes, I do. Good thought! And I'm sure you are not too late.

:)

[mark12_30]

It's already there, Saucie. Go to the Forum-- for instance, "Books". Check out all these links -- these headings all along the top, in yellow font. You can sort on any of them. They are stretched across the top of the frame, like a menu.


Thread / Thread Starter
Rating
Last Post
Replies
Views



The threads have different headings; these are by Forum and Sub-Forum.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Nuru's post puts me in mind of something that Esty and I have been PM-ing about -- this 'club' is NOT meant to, nor will it ever be exclusive or closed. 'New' people can come and go as they like: 'keeping up' with the new threads as they come on for new chapter(s), or going 'back' and reviewing and adding to the discussion of earlier chapters.

In everything we do with our brand-spanking-new Sub-Forum (I am SO excited we have our own -- all hail the great and benevolent Barrow Wight!) we need to make sure that its openness is crystal clear to all and sundry.

[Kransha]

Speaking of crystal clear openness, perhaps we should just clear-itize a few simple things. For the sake of others, newcomers, willing leaners, and myself, who has already lagged behind the last half a page of this vivacious discussion, here is a questionnaire directed Fordim and any others who think they know the answers, just for the sake of pure, untainted clarity.

1) What is the level of organization for these 'chunky' discussions? Will we have already planned what level of time is to be put into each tier of chapter discussion. I know too much planning will water down the enjoyment, but how will the levels be kept track of? Begin and end? I realize that no discussion may ever entirely end, but how will we go about the process?

2) What sort of things will be discussed? Just very general stuff, themes, language, and the like? Will any discussions be a bit more thematic than others? More specific, or focused, perhaps?

3) What members have we currently? As this is not 'exclusive' I suppose there really is no 'club' merely members who wish to try their hand. Does this mean that anyone can openly discuss something, make a new point, or is there an appointed amount of folks who will reign over each of the chapter levels?

That's all I can concoct for now. Must...compose...thoughts...adequately...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

1) What is the level of organization for these 'chunky' discussions? Will we have already planned what level of time is to be put into each tier of chapter discussion. I know too much planning will water down the enjoyment, but how will the levels be kept track of? Begin and end? I realize that no discussion may ever entirely end, but how will we go about the process?

It's looking more and more like there will be a new thread added by a mod for each chapter on a more or less weekly basis -- the ambiguity here comes from the proposal to speed up the pace or slow it down depending on how the discussion is going. Those who wish to post to the new thread can go ahead, those who wish to continue with the older threads may do so, those who wish to do both -- more power to them!

So, yes, this means that this forum will be running for more than a year before we've got through the whole book, but I don't think anyone is proposing that you have to read the book that slowly -- I myself will read it chapter by chapter as we go, but others may wish simply to review from time to time.


2) What sort of things will be discussed? Just very general stuff, themes, language, and the like? Will any discussions be a bit more thematic than others? More specific, or focused, perhaps?

Again, it would appear as though we are moving toward a very open forum for discussion. I am certainly not going to pose formal questions each week (egads -- can you imagine the workload?) and none of the mods have yet undertaken to do so either. I rather suspect that it will work out that somebody will post something, and somebody else will respond, etc etc. As we get further into it, there will be ideas floating around already that we can bring to bear on the new chapter.


3) What members have we currently? As this is not 'exclusive' I suppose there really is no 'club' merely members who wish to try their hand. Does this mean that anyone can openly discuss something, make a new point, or is there an appointed amount of folks who will reign over each of the chapter levels?

Anyone and everyone at the Downs is automatically a member of the club. They can post once or every day for the duration of the discussion (yes, I am looking at you Saucepan).

Hope this clarifies where I think things currently stand.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Fordim -

My hat is off to you. This is an excellent idea, and I will gladly take part.

In a previous post, Lyta Underhill mentioned the small read-along group at Yahoo that is, in my opinion, one of the best on the web. This actually grew out of a netscape discussion board. For the past six months, I've followed along silently with the Silmarillion, learning a lot in the process. Before that, they did the entire LotR text, and have now started on The Tolkien Reader. Individual posters come and go, but the discussion continues on.

Lyta did not have the link so I will post it in case anyone wants to look and get an idea of how such a group functions. Kransha -- Maybe it would help to look at the ebb and flow of discussion there to see how people contribute. Everyone brings forward new ideas, and each speaks from a different angle. Some express things from a personal view, i.e, how they actually felt when they read something in the text, and others bring in outside text and ideas, but everyone contributes and is listened to.

Here are the archives for the LotR discussion and for the first half of the Silm: archives (http://www.westmarch.net/TRA.htm). Here are the more current discussions: message board (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tolkien_read-along/) They have a lot of fun and share some good ideas.

While we obviously have to make initial decisions about the pace of reading and how material should be grouped and presented, I think some of this will play itself out in the actual discussion. If and when it's obvious that a particular discussion is still ongoing, posters will just naturally congregate there. Folks who disappear on vacation for a few weeks in the summer may want to go back and add their two cents in. Anything we can do to keep the discussion flexible, at least in this sense, is a good idea.

To be very truthful, one of the reasons I like this idea is that I feel it could get posters with different backgrounds and approaches together, all working on a common goal. Too often, we go off in our little corners --this group to Middle-earth Mirth, another to "lofty, philosophical" discussions in Books, another to RPGs, and then there are the quiz mavens! Yet the one thing we all share in common is the actual text of the books. It would be good to have a thread where that takes center stage.

~Child

[Sirithheruwen]

This sounds great! I will most certainly join in, at least a couple times. I, however, would be more content to let the more "learned" 'Downers take over. I'll stand on the sidelines - your own personal cheerleader! :D ;)

[Child of the 7th Age]

Sirithheruwen -

Oh, no! That's the one thing I hope will not happen: to have a few people dominate who are the 'regulars' posting in Books. My hope, as I tried to explain in my edit to my last post, is that this should be a wider base of posters, even some folk who don't normally contribute as much to the Books forum.

It seems to me that in a discussion of this type, our personal and immediate response to the text is just as important as any 'scholarly' discussion that draws on outside ideas, other writings etc. What can be most intriguing is learning how other folk see things in their mind, how they feel when they see the characters going through particular situations.

So please, please don't sit back and lurk. Stick your toe in the water, and let people know what the book means to you. In a discussion like this, both approaches --the personal and the so-called scholarly--are equally valid as long as we stay on topic. This is the same thing that Fordim was getting at in one of his earlier posts.

~Child

[Kuruharan]

This is a good idea.

Stopping to think about it, and I'm ashamed to admit this, I think it's been years since I actually sat down and really read the books. :o It's gotten so I just thumb through them for a textual reference, or just read a random chapter or two if the mood takes me.

*smack* Bad Kuruharan! *smack**smack* Bad, Bad Kuruharan!

[Nurumaiel]

Child, I heartily agree with what you have said. I do not often take part in discussions in the 'Books' forum. While I would love to do it I just don't have the time to read and study LotR (and other works of Tolkien) enough to get that deep. Most of it is over my head. This planned 'reading club' will provide the perfect opportunity to start out slow, as you have said, Child, sticking my toe in the water and wading deeper and deeper. Perhaps I'll get to the point where I can swim!

I was given the impression that the discussions were for all... for the learned to learn more and the ignorant to learn.

[mark12_30]

Preach it, Child!!

Kuruharan, don't be too hard on yourself. Want a good laugh?

"Next time I read the book, I'll be looking for Point of View characters, points of wonder, sense of faerie, invasion of t-T-t-Truth :eek: , Frodo's visions and mood swings, and --- oh, you know. I have so many things to look for!"

Eh, as a result, I've been *afraid* to read the books, because I couldn't afford the emotional highs and lows that will result.

[Bombadil]

Hey Dol, Merry Dol! What a great day! Being in a Lord of the Rings club in my school, I can now bring up discussions of chapters from the downs to the club and vice-versa! Count Old Tom in!

[Lhunardawen]

To be very truthful, one of the reasons I like this idea is that I feel it could get posters with different backgrounds and approaches together, all working on a common goal. Too often, we go off in our little corners --this group to Middle-earth Mirth, another to "lofty, philosophical" discussions in Books, another to RPGs, and then there are the quiz mavens! Yet the one thing we all share in common is the actual text of the books. It would be good to have a thread where that takes center stage.

You couldn't have said it better, Child. Now my worst nightmare is over! :)

Count me in, Fordim. And it is a very brilliant idea, too. Whenever I read the books, I see little details that I have ignored at first. I have always wanted to discuss them but I fear that creating such a thread is pointless. Thanks a lot! But I guess I would be among those lagging behind, since I can only visit the Downs every weekends... :(

edit: please read my sig, it may be encouraging! :)

[Fingolfin II]

Count me in on this too- it's a great idea! Is that what the new forum was made for?

[Son of Númenor]

Is that what the new forum was made for?'Tis indeed. I am surprised & delighted that it was put up so fast; Fordim apparently has friends in high places. ;)

[Saraphim]

Count me in as well! I've always wanted to get something like this going with my friends, but, well, they aren't as avid as I am about Lord of the Rings, so, well, here I am.

:smokin:

[mark12_30]

Ooooh, should we imitate the Walk to Rivendell and put our chapter number in our Location?
:D
(I couldn't resist.)

'**********

I'm going to use the ballantine RotK-movie-release paperbacks off the grocery store shelves. If they get beat up it won't bother me, and they are lighter than my beloved Omnibus copies... I already put a paper cover on Fellowship, though. It's the one with the Frodo-With-Phial-In-Shelob's-Cave on the cover... but I haven't decided what to put on my paper cover so it's still blank white.... hooom, hom. I guess while I'm waiting for the Start Signal, I can be daydreaming about a drawing for the cover...

[HerenIstarion]

Oh, no! That's the one thing I hope will not happen: to have a few people dominate who are the 'regulars' posting in Books

It would be advisable to put up sticky advertisements in all other sub-fora. I judge by meself, for I seldom venture where I seldom venture, if you follow my meaning, kind sirs and ladies

[Mister Underhill]

Just for a pacing benchmark, it looks like the group Child linked took eight or nine months to read from Prologue through Appendices. If the quick math in my head is right (and that's not a given by any means), I reckon that's roughly two chapters a week.

Anyone besides those who have already chimed in have any strong thoughts or ideas on pace?

[Maédhros]

I'll do this soon. A moderator-to-be-named-later will be responsible for starting each new topic. I'm considering stickying each topic so that they will fall in proper order rather than being all jumbled up. The downside of that organization would be that finding newer posts might be more difficult. Thoughts and suggestions?

My concern with the chapter a week pace is that discussion will go on for over a year. It's hard to keep any core group committed and focused for such a length of time. There's also the consideration that by the time you get to the end of the book, the beginning will seem a distant memory. The book isn't meant to be read at such a slow pace.


I think that the discussion of LOTR is a great idea, but I have to disagree with having a moderator responsible for starting each new topic. I have experience with this because in another forum I started a Published Silmarillion discussion chapter by chapter and we assigned a different person the responsability of doing the intro of each chapter. I think that this approach offers a better display of ideas and point of views than say a single person doing that for each chapter, and also that the work is inmense, also it would make the persons more involved because they would have to research in order to make good intros into the discussion in the chapters.
I would not be adverse of the idea of having a single person posting the initial post of a chapter, provided that it is done by different persons so as to assure the quality of the intro.

On the time problem for the discussion. While it is certainly very difficult to maintain for a long period of time, it is not impossible either. For example, I posted the Ainulindalë chapter in Nov 11 of 2002, and we as of today are nearly finishing discussing the Eärendil chapter and after that there is still the Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
My point is that it not only can be done, but it has been done.

Here is the link: The Silmarillion Project (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=20)

[The Saucepan Man]

It's already there, Saucie. Go to the Forum-- for instance, "Books". Check out all these links -- these headings all along the top, in yellow font. But that still wouldn't allow one to order the threads by chapter - unless, that is, we preface each thread/chapter title with an alphabetical reference. So, the thread titles for Book One chapters would be: "1A. A Long-expected Party". "1B. The Shadow of the Past" etc. Book Two chapters would be titled: "2A. Many Meetings", "2B. The Council of Elrond" etc. I am assuming that numbers take precedence over letters, but if not it would be the other way round. In any event, that would allow us to order the threads by chapter in the sub-forum if we wanted too.

Sorry, I know that this is getting into the detail, but I'm a sucker for detail. :rolleyes: ;)

[Lyta_Underhill]

I think that this approach offers a better display of ideas and point of views than say a single person doing that for each chapter, and also that the work is inmense, also it would make the persons more involved because they would have to research in order to make good intros into the discussion in the chapters.
Maedhros' example is about how my thoughts run as well. I agree completely about having a different person intro each chapter, or at least spacing out the chapters introduced by the same person. The structure of the intro post for each chapter in my experience was more a summary, then analysis, then favorite parts, but I also like Maedhros' structure of adding the burning questions posed by the particular passages. The thing that distinguished the initial poster of each chapter was that their summary, etc. followed a pre-determined structure, but the content was determined by the material. The following posts could address any point in the first post or go off on any question posed at any time by a subsequent poster on the chapter's points, or bring up new points not explored by the initial poster. I think it worked pretty well, however, it did take over a week for each new person to prepare his or her initial post, as it did take more or less an essay form and was well thought out. For this reason, I think it would be better to assign a different initial poster on each chapter, just for the sake of speed, so the entire forum is not waiting on one poor overworked moderator to come up with the next chapter's intro. Just my thoughts. :)

Cheers!
Lyta

[mark12_30]

Ah. Having seen in Mister Underhill's public profile "Interests: Wipes vs. dissolves; Occupation: Workin' man ", that he was referring to graphics-coding rather than clorox and comet... Mister Underhill, if I have mistakenly accused you of being an UberGeek you may freely vent your wrath.

Otherwise I expect/assume that the book number and zero-padded chapter numbers will precede the chapter text-string-names. As in:

B1Ch01_AnUnexpectedParty
B1Ch02_ShadowOfThePast
...etc.

[Evisse the Blue]

But late is better than never - I see you still have some administrative issues to discuss before the fun starts. Following Child's advice I will try to join in as often as I can. (with the mention that I've never participated in such a read-along before, so I'm looking forward to my first). So, you can count me in too.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, that looks sensible, Helen.

While I agree with allocating responsibility for the first post on each chapter to different people (not necessarily mods, though :eek: ;) ), I don't think that anyone should be expected to write an essay. People can, of course, if they want to. But, if not, a summary of the major themes and issues which occur to them should suffice to get things rolling. Subsequent posters will be free to raise additional matters, of course.

[Mister Underhill]

Quick thoughts:

Maédhros: Point taken. I venture to say that the TftE crew is unusually dedicated, though. If the idea here is to involve a broad cross-section of Downers, then a narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed. But hey, if I'm the only one worried, I'm certainly not going to make a federal case out of it. Besides, there's probably not much difference between eight months and a year and change. If pacing it out to cover, say, the summer seems too fast, then you may as well go whole hog and do a chapter per week.

M and Lyta: Topic starting. A couple of things. Do we really need a summary? After all, posters presumably all just read the chapter. That's the point, right? Plus we have detailed chapter summaries available for linking (or even cutting-and-pasting, for that matter) on the Downs proper. As far as preparing an essay-form analysis/introduction of discussion points... I wasn't anticipating anything of this sort. I side with the posters who advocate maximum flexibility in the actual discussion structure. My idea was that the moderator would pretty much create the thread without necessarily creating expansive introductory comments and discussion would simply begin, with posters taking the lead in any given chapter as opportunity and inspiration allowed, rather than as assigned work. This approach also guards against dropout and burnout and missed deadlines. I can be convinced otherwise, though.

Saucepan and mark12_30: Yes, I had anticipated a standard thread-naming convention (another reason to have one person starting all the threads). Maybe not so "computerese" as your examples, Helen, but something similar. The zero-padding is a good point. So - "Book I - Chapter 01 - A Long-Expected Party" and so on. "Wipes vs. dissolves" refers to filmic transitions. Ugh -- my mask is slipping! ;)

Oh, and P.S. -- Lyta, it's awesome that you have a sig from "Pale Rider". Eastwood RULES.

P.P.S. -- Cross-posting with SPM -- agreed re: essay writing.

[Maédhros]

I venture to say that the TftE crew is unusually dedicated, though. If the idea here is to involve a broad cross-section of Downers, then a narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed. But hey, if I'm the only one worried, I'm certainly not going to make a federal case out of it. Besides, there's probably not much difference between eight months and a year and change. If pacing it out to cover, say, the summer seems too fast, then you may as well go whole hog and do a chapter per week.
The narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed, but the main difference between here and that other forum is that there are more members in this forum than in that where the Silmarillion Discussion is taking place. There is an advantage in having a more long discussion time is that it gives more people the opportunity to contribute while the discussion is taking place. So there are pros and cons in there.

Topic starting. A couple of things. Do we really need a summary? After all, posters presumably all just read the chapter. That's the point, right? Plus we have detailed chapter summaries available for linking (or even cutting-and-pasting, for that matter) on the Downs proper. As far as preparing an essay-form analysis/introduction of discussion points... I wasn't anticipating anything of this sort. I side with the posters who advocate maximum flexibility in the actual discussion structure. My idea was that the moderator would pretty much create the thread without necessarily creating expansive introductory comments and discussion would simply begin, with posters taking the lead in any given chapter as opportunity and inspiration allowed, rather than as assigned work. This approach also guards against dropout and burnout and missed deadlines. I can be convinced otherwise, though.
I don't see a contradicion with having an analysis/intro with having maximum flexibility in the discussion. The intro is just an intro, anyone can post their questions/ideas. The idea for the intro is to set a base for the discussion, the different posters can provide their own insight in the chapters.
Another point is that having people doing the intros hopefully will make those persons work harder to try and come up with better ideas/thoughts that can deepen the discussion.
As for the deadlines/dropout and missed deadlines, well it might happen but hey, in our works and life we have deadlines that we have to deal with and it is Tolkien and it is supposed to be fun. Any member can take the intro if another doesn't have the time or a problem in making it.

[Mister Underhill]

Intros/essays. The more I think about it, the less I like it because it adds a whole layer of management. Someone would have to create a sign-up for chapter intros, then assign them, then have to follow-up on getting them from the assigned person or reassigning them if a person dropped out or ran late or...

I think you catch my drift. We don't need those kind of headaches. The Downs has a longstanding tradition of intelligent, relatively unmoderated discussion which I think will work just fine for this project.

[Lhundulinwen]

Sounds like a lot of fun, and a great way for all Downers to come together! Personally, I think it would be best to keep most things fairly flexible. I do agree that there should be a little order to the chaos though. Also, here is my idea (humble though it is)- Whoever starts the VERY first chapter, should include like a mssion statement type thing. (I hope I am making sense here) Ex.-

1. This is NOT a 'club'. It is open to everyone on the Downs.
2. We will shoot for ____ chapters a week, but feel free to go at own pace.
Etc, etc. Hope I didn't just sound like an executive or a dork. :D

Oh, and will someone tell me when the start date might be? I will be gone the next 6 weeks, and am not sure how often I'll be able to get on the Downs, and I would like to start with everyone else. Thank you!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just to bring everyone up to date on what's been happening in PMs between Esty (who mods the book forum) and myself. . .

I have given Esty a first and very rough draft of a sticky that will go at the top of the threads list for the forum, in which the purpose of the forum is explained and any and all who wish to are invited to join in the conversation.

I will also be writing up and sending along to her a first post/intro thingee for the Prologue, with which we shall begin the first thread for discussion. I hope to have this available by Monday night, which means we might very well be able to get the ball rolling by, well, early next week (so everyone get out there and read the Prologue!) I will do my best to 'do' what people have been suggesting in that intro post, but if there are comments on the format of it, then pass those along so that future first-posters will be able to craft more useful intros.

I'm hoping that the mods are paying attention to the ideas/concerns about naming the threads for ease of sorting! These are the kinds of really important details that I never seem able to think of.

As to getting the word out -- when the forum officially opens for business, I will start a thread in each of the open forums (Books, Movies, Novices, Quiz
Room etc) to announce its arrival. If anyone can think of other ways to advertise the club, please go ahead and do so (anyone want to volunteer to PM every user????? :D :eek: ) As has been said so many times in this thread already, the key to success with this is going to be getting as many people as possible to participate.

One thing I'm not at all sure about right now is how we are going to bo about signing people up for those first posts to each thread. I hope that I am not earning her wrath by saying this in open forum without first doing so by PM, but I rather suspect that people interested in signing on for the intro post to a specific chapter should contact Esty -- and I getting this right, oh great and mighty Mod of the Books???

(Please, nobody contact her yet -- not until she's confirmed that I have gotten this right.)

[mark12_30]

(so everyone get out there and read the Prologue!)

GLEE!! GLEEE!!! Just in time for my bus ride home!!!!! Wahooooo!

[Imladris]

I am so excited to start this! Fwee!

*makes mental note to read the prologue before leaving on vacation...* :rolleyes:

To help with advertising, etc, I could put a link to it in my sig.

[Mister Underhill]

As to getting the word out -- when the forum officially opens for business, I will start a thread in each of the open forums With vB3, we have a nifty "Announcements" feature. You need only make one post, which will then be displayed in all fora. When all is in readiness, one of the admins can post the announcement.

[Mad Baggins]

This sounds terribly exciting! *applauds Fordim* I'm game!

[Joy]

I am all for this. There used to be one of these at another board that I am on. I really enjoyed it and would love to do it again here.

[mark12_30]

The Forward AND the Prolog? I read the foreword today and it's got lots of canon vs reader type stuff.

:D

:cool:

:smokin:

Edit: how does one spell fore-word, anyway? ...

[Gorwingel]

Gosh this sounds cool!
I am amazed that this has all popped up over just a few days!
I will most definitely be taking part just because when you have discussions about written works with others, they usually notice things that sometimes you don't.

It may be a little hard for me to keep up because of all that is going on this summer, and the fact that I will be going to college in the fall (because this does look like it will take awhile).

But I will most definitely give it a shot

This seems like a great way to introduce many of the new "downers" to the book forum just because like others have said we all have the books in common, we have all read the books, and LOTR is also the most understandable of all the works of Tolkien (well that's in my personal opinion).

I look forward to learning many new things about one of my favorite works of literature :cool:

[Kath]

Wow this thread is confusing! I had to read the whole thing to find out ifyhis was the "club" or just discussion about it.
But it does look very cool so I'm just here to congratulate whoever had the idea and to beg to be allowed to join in.

[Sirithheruwen]

Sirithheruwen -
Oh, no! That's the one thing I hope will not happen: to have a few people dominate who are the 'regulars' posting in Books. My hope, as I tried to explain in my edit to my last post, is that this should be a wider base of posters, even some folk who don't normally contribute as much to the Books forum.

It seems to me that in a discussion of this type, our personal and immediate response to the text is just as important as any 'scholarly' discussion that draws on outside ideas, other writings etc. What can be most intriguing is learning how other folk see things in their mind, how they feel when they see the characters going through particular situations.

So please, please don't sit back and lurk. Stick your toe in the water, and let people know what the book means to you. In a discussion like this, both approaches --the personal and the so-called scholarly--are equally valid as long as we stay on topic. This is the same thing that Fordim was getting at in one of his earlier posts.

~Child

Oh, I see. I just guess I've never felt really that comfortable in the Books Forum due to the amazing amount of intellect, so I assumed that this would probably the same. But, as my Math teacher says, "When you ASSUME you make an A** out of U and ME." I'm no scholar. However, I shall be very happy to participate in said Book Club. :D

*takes deep breath*
*plunges!*

[Maédhros]

I have given Esty a first and very rough draft of a sticky that will go at the top of the threads list for the forum, in which the purpose of the forum is explained and any and all who wish to are invited to join in the conversation.

I will also be writing up and sending along to her a first post/intro thingee for the Prologue, with which we shall begin the first thread for discussion. I hope to have this available by Monday night, which means we might very well be able to get the ball rolling by, well, early next week (so everyone get out there and read the Prologue!) I will do my best to 'do' what people have been suggesting in that intro post, but if there are comments on the format of it, then pass those along so that future first-posters will be able to craft more useful intros.

I'm hoping that the mods are paying attention to the ideas/concerns about naming the threads for ease of sorting! These are the kinds of really important details that I never seem able to think of.

One thing I'm not at all sure about right now is how we are going to go about signing people up for those first posts to each thread. I hope that I am not earning her wrath by saying this in open forum without first doing so by PM, but I rather suspect that people interested in signing on for the intro post to a specific chapter should contact Esty -- and I getting this right, oh great and mighty Mod of the Books???

(Please, nobody contact her yet -- not until she's confirmed that I have gotten this right.)
Unless I'm terribly mistaken, this sounds an awful lot like the way the other Tolkien discussion I had mentioned when people get assigned to do intros into each chapter Mr. UnderHill. Where will I know for sure what the format is going to be.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Fordim apparently has friends in high places. No, but we do recognize a great idea when we see it! As a matter of fact, back when something similar was started on the Downs, almost four years ago, it was Mister Underhill's idea! Anyone interested in ancient site history might want to scroll back and read the links he provided earlier on this thread. Alas, some of those discussions were lost, and many names of involved members are now only mythical to forum newcomers!

Fordim Hedgethistle, Mister Underhill and I have been corresponding, sharing ideas and plans and taking into consideration suggestions made on this thread. Many thanks to Underhill for his experience and technical expertise; he set up the new sub-forum. (If you haven’t yet noticed it, go to the Books forum main page and look at the top – it’s called “Chapter-by-Chapter”.) Here’s how it will work:


All Barrow-Downs members can post there; the ‘club’ includes anyone who takes part in the discussions.

Only BD administrators and selected moderators can begin threads on the sub-forum. That insures that only ‘official’ threads will be posted there, with uniform titles to make locating and finding threads easier. For the start, Estelyn Telcontar will be the moderator who starts the new threads.

An introductory thread will go up within the next day, explaining the idea and inviting all to participate. It will be ‘stickied’ to the top of the sub-forum.

There will be an official introduction by Fordim Hedgethistle only for the first discussion thread; neither he nor the involved mods/admins want the organisational headache of coordinating volunteer members to write summaries, etc. for each chapter. Anyone is welcome to prepare a post for her/his favorite chapter; we are confident that discussions will be excellent, whether there is no intro, one or several.

Members will be expected to stay on topic, especially when long book chapters must be divided up to keep the discussion from getting confusing. As on all other forums, moderators/administrators will step in to edit/delete inappropriate posts.

As was suggested, we will begin with a discussion of the Foreword; though it was written by Tolkien years after the book was first published, there are many good thoughts well worth discussing in it. (That thread should begin on Monday.) After that, we will discuss the Prologue, then one chapter after another. To begin with, each chapter discussion will last a week before the next one is started; threads will be left open so that newcomers and late starters can still participate.

Wow this thread is confusing! I had to read the whole thing Yes, a lot of different thoughts have been offered and many taken into consideration. This post sounds a bit like ‘Shirriff’s rules’; however, it is intended to be helpful, to explain everything and to answer the questions people have asked. And quite honestly, if a bit of confusion would get more people to actually read whole threads, I’d have no objection! ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hey, I'm in too. This sounds fun.

What about... doing individual threads for each chapter, starting with the foreward and prologue. Week One, we read the foreward and prologue and BEGIN the discussion in its own thread. Week Two, as the foreward and prologue discussion progresses, we read The Long Expected Party and discuss it in its own new thread. Week Three, we continue on with our reading, and discussions still go on. That way there is a basic schedule to follow, so you don't get thrown off track (a chapter a week), but discussions aren't limited by time constraints. You can tell which chapter we are currently on, because it is the latest chapter that currently has its own thread. Any newcomers can start at the beginning and work their way up to the most current chapter, while still being involved in active discussions about each chapter they read, as they read it. If you miss a chapter (alas, real life can throw off a lot of things), you can catch yourself up and then progress to the current conversation.

Fea

Edit: seems I hit "post reply" before I noticed pages 2 and 3. That, of course, means that I just rephrased a few of the prior posts. Sorry about that...

[Bombadil]

That seems like a good idea, but do you mean to say start with the Prologue?

[Mister Underhill]

That's pretty much the plan, Feanor, though we're actually going to start with the foreword. In fact, the first discussion thread is likely to go up within a day or two, so all interested in joining the read-along can get cracking on the foreword now! When the Chapter-by-Chapter forum officially opens for business, we'll post an announcement in all other fora.

[mark12_30]

.....Er...... :o ...The Foreword AND the Prologue? (I hope)

Or just the Foreword? :(
if so, too late...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This week the Foreword; next week the world!!! Ummmm, I mean, next week the Prologue, of course...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Fordim's explanation of the chapter-by-chapter discussion forum can now be read on the new Welcome! (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=328353#post328353) thread. The first discussion thread (on the Foreword) will open on Monday, June 7th (early morning, Downs-time/EST). Plans are for the second discussion thread (on the Prologue) to open a week later, on Monday, June 14th, then Chapter 1 of LotR yet another week later. Enjoy reading and discussing, everyone!

[Mister Underhill]

The read-through is in business. Thanks to everyone for their input and ideas.

To follow up slightly on Esty's point, I think a key (how many keys are we up to now?) to success is getting people in on the ground floor. Starting slowly with only the Foreword will allow awareness of the project to build before people get too far behind.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

For all those who were involved in exchanging ideas developing the Chapter-by-Chapter discussion, we have opened a Feedback and Suggestion Box (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10801) thread on the Chapter-by-Chapter sub-forum. If you took part in the first week's discussion on the Foreword, please tell us what you enjoyed and what you feel could be improved for the continuing discussions. Or perhaps you didn't participate; if your reason had something to do with the discussion itself, please do share it with us!

On Monday we will continue with the discussion of the Prologue - if you haven't already done so, dig out your book and (re-)read it so that you can share your thoughts with us!

[Calenedheliel1]

I was really looking forward to this club starting and then when it did it wasn't at all what I expected. I was hoping to discuss that was happening in the book and not why or what ideals went into the writing of this book. I thought this was supposed to be fun but what I read in the discussion thread was not fun it was actually boring. I hope that as the book goes on that it will become a discussion about the story and not the ideas behind it.

[Bombadil]

To me it would be boring to discuss what happenned in the books, because we already know that! :p I find it very interesting discussing the books in depth, and tlaking about how tolkien wrote, I'm very muck looking forward to more.

[Kuruharan]

I was hoping to discuss that was happening in the book and not why or what ideals went into the writing of this book.

To me it would be boring to discuss what happenned in the books, because we already know that! I find it very interesting discussing the books in depth

Perhaps we can compromise and do both.

[HerenIstarion]

I believe that it all can be combined once the books proper discussion are started. For plot is indeed known (but how well? :D), but what lies beyond and out there is also of great interest

My suggestion would be not to be intimidated if some drafts of HoME 5, or letters, or works of Boethius and anything besides show up (and I believe those may come up, just for the look of the thing and to see 'what it would have been like if published in 1940' and 'does Pope look like Tom Bombadil to you' or whatever)

If you find some post boring, skip it, just make sure when contributing your own entry to indicate whom are you answering and on what (by quoting, or addressing people to post (with its number) that you have in mind. It was done before, and quite successfully. The posts that bore you may be full of wonder to some other readers, and, if dealt with in similar way, will not be confusing (I believe) at all.

[Bêthberry]

*runs off to set up a parody RPG in Rohan about Chapter by Chapter* ;)

Or, some enterprising, intrepid soul could start a Book Club in Mirth. :D :smokin:

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Parody on Tolkien, Bb?? Shocking!! To even think of such a suggestion!!

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic, begging your pardon...)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The discussion of Chapter 1, "The Long-Expected Party", is now open - welcome to all who want to participate!

[Fingolfin II]

I was thinking, after we finish LotR, could we do a chapter-by-chapter discussion on The Silmarillion?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Why not?! Ask again in another year or so...

Actually though, we might want to go through The Hobbit chapter by chapter first; we'll make that decision when we're somewhere in RotK. If interest in this kind of discussion continues, we have many interesting years ahead of us!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Discussion of Chapter 4, 'A Shortcut to Mushrooms', begins here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10898) today. All are welcome to participate!

[Bombadil]

I'm sure noone cares, but I look forward to participating in the CbC discussion as soon as you hit the Old Forest chapter. I started re-reading fellowship awhile ago, and stopped there, and i will pick it back up along with the discussions starting at that point. So see you in two weeks! :p