Feedback and Suggestion Box

[Mister Underhill]

Greetings, Chapter-by-Chapter readers.

Since we're in this thing for the long haul, and now that we've all had a chance to test-drive the project with the Foreword thread, I thought I'd establish a place for feedback and suggestions.

Any suggestions on how to improve the read-through or the discussion structure we have set up are welcome (though of course we reserve all rights as to which ones will actually be implemented).

Things you might comment on are the pacing of the read-through, ways to focus or enrich the discussion, or ways to make this thing as friendly as possible to your fellow members.

[Fingolfin II]

Some chapters in Lotr are longer than others, so I think it would be a good idea to break them up into smaller sections to make it easier for everyone to follow. Also, there hasn't been much posting by a wide variety of members- only a few people have contributed so far. I think posts should be more open and accessible to everyone in the Barrow-Downs, not just a few more 'learned' people.

That's my two cents on what's looking to be a promising new forum!

[Firefoot]

Also, there hasn't been much posting by a wide variety of members- only a few people have contributed so far. I think posts should be more open and accessible to everyone in the Barrow-Downs, not just a few more 'learned' people. My opinion on this is that in starting with the foreward there has been a lot of 'deep' discussions, and many of the posts have been made by some of the 'more-learned' BDers, many of whom frequently post in the Books section (Not that this is bad!). I can see why this might discourage some people from posting, especially if they do not feel they have nothing to contribute. What I hope is that in moving into the actual chapters more people will contribute to discussion.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Firefoot's got it in one: What I hope is that in moving into the actual chapters more people will contribute to discussion. Once we're into the book itself, or even the prologue, I plan on getting involved. I think once we hit "fun" chapters, more people will want to throw in their two cents. Not that the other stuff isn't worth a read... However, maybe some people, like me, just finished reading the books straight through and only want to comment on some things?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'd like to see a wider range of people too. All too often the presence of lengthly posts in academic language seems to deter others from sharing their thoughts, but that is not the intention of the members who write those posts. I don't have the answers, but I think it would deter certain members from the discussion if they were required somehow to tailor their posts to suit the needs of others.

Perhaps a more determined promotion of the idea that anyone with an insight to share should consider posting in the discussions would be more helpful. The 'learned' members are always eager to hear a fresh opinion, particularly from new members; and nobody who has participated so far is the sort of person to dismiss someone's views because they aren't written up like a university paper.

I agree that the foreword isn't the most interesting part of the book for a lot of readers. I'm sure that the Prologue and A Long-Expected Party will draw a lot more people into the discussion who are more interested in Hobbits than allegory versus applicability. In fact, the lighter tone of those sections may well be just what the doctor ordered (and that doctor is not necessarily a PhD).

[Alatariel Telemnar]

Some members might find it uncomfortable to post in such a thread that has had posts that are “like a university paper”. They could feel that there is nothing for them to contribute, as others have said. Or possibly find that whatever they say might make others 'judge' them as a member (considering, “many of the posts have been made by some of the 'more-learned' BDers, many of whom frequently post in the Books section”), if what they say is not as ‘high standard’ as everything else. It could simply be that this is not the most interesting section of the book for them. Yes, I hope others will post more in the next few sections and chapters.

[Bêthberry]

Like Squatter, I too wouldl like to see more people post in the discussion. I was pleased, however, to see such people as Orofaniel, Durelin, Firefoot, Saraphim, Arry, Fingolfin II, Kransha, and tar-ancalime post.

Yet, also like Squatter, I don't have the answer to Fingolfin II's statement.

I think posts should be more open and accessible to everyone in the Barrow-Downs, not just a few more 'learned' people.

Fingolfin II, could you explain what you mean by 'more open and accessible'?

Do you mean we limit the discussion solely to LOTR and not bring in any other of Tolkien's writings or his Letters, since many might not have read the Letters or The Silm? (When I first arrived on the Downs, I had read some of Tolkien's essays and minor works, TH and LOTR, but not The Silm and was daunted by how others would off-handedly refer to passages and elements from the Legendarium.)

Or would you prefer not to see outside critics and scholars quoted with their ideas about Tolkien? (I am thinking here of such things as davem's quote from the Proceedings of the Tolkien Society.) Perhaps we need to be more rigorous in focussing the discussion solely on the chapter in question?

Are there differences of style, as Squatter and Alatariel Telemnar have suggested, which you think would make the discussion more inviting? Perhaps when posters such as Fordim Hedgethistle (or myself on the Canonicity thread) use words such as readerly, we need to provide an explanation of the word or idea? Maybe we are using concepts about books which are unfamiliar and some posters would like us to explain them better?

Or is there something about this Chapter by Chapter forum which is different from other Books threads? Or is this rather the kind of difference which exists between Books and, say, Novices and Newcomers?

I don't think anyone who posted wanted to deter others from posting--certainly there is nothing here like the curt, short, sharp style the guys used when I came to BD. Others besides myself addressed posts to people who, for instance, did not post on the Canonicity thread, such as Orofaniel and Durelin (I hope I'm right about this--relying on my faulty memory!). I enjoyed Arry's post about old typewriters and ten-fingured so much that it inspired me to think about Tolkien's self-deprecatory wit. I was very pleased when tar-ancalime took a point about my post and expanded it to a defense of the work of art as art to speak for itself without outside explication.--something I had in fact been planning to do myself in a subsequent post! I still owe replies to Oro and Durelin (RL is placing a heavy limit on my time here these days) but in my delay I find that Son of Númenor has, quite better than I think I could have, provided an explanation of how real life events could be seen to have had a hand in the writing of LOTR without necessarily providing a one-to-one literal correspondence. In short, I think there has been a fair bit of cooperative discussion on the Foreword thread so far.

Fingolfin, I don't want to cut you off from answering, but these ideas have been running in head for some time. Please bear with me while I ponder some other ideas about internet communities.

What possibly is happening is, of course, common to all internet communities which grow and develop with 'new blood'. Some of us have been here for four years, some two years, others a little over or under a year. That creates some difficulties, for the "old timers" have memories of discussions which inform their ideas, memories which the 'newly arrived' don't share. One other unique aspect of the Downs is the age range of people here. We have teenagers to, well, not quite senior citizens, but people in their forties and even *gasp* fifties. This is I think an admirable effect of Tolkien's writing, that he can appeal to such an age range. But it can provide some difficulties when we 'speak' to each other.

Another aspect of internet communities is the sometimes rapid turnover of people. Some stay; others go, for a variety of reasons. I know that some of us, Child and myself particularly and I think Estelyn also and I am sure others, go to great effort to welcome 'newbies' and to encourage them to post. I have spent much delightful time corresponding via PM with posters. And many of them are now gone, at least from the site and some even from all email access. It is hard to be constantly making new acqaintances and then losing them. This is not the 'fault' of anyone, but perhaps it limits the responses of some of the 'old timers' who want to wait to see if the 'newbies' will in fact stay.

And some of us just have our own 'hobby horses' to ride as we challenge each other back and forth about our ideas. (What? Moi ride my own hobby horse?) ;) Isn't this right, Mr. Underhill, Aiwendil, davem, Helen, Heren ? I guess this is part of how we know each other and the interest we take in each and we have to learn to make room for new people to find a place within this ebb and flow of talk.

Posting on discussion boards takes courage, because we see our ideas 'out there' and have little idea initially what might happen to them. Perhaps if we took more courage to contact posters when we didn't understand something, either via PM or even on a post, we might be able to create a 'common ground of understanding' so that, without necessarily demanding that we all think and write alike, we can feel comfortable listening to each other.


Fingolfin II, I guess I got a little carried away here with ideas. Please feel entirely free to tell me I have either answered my own questions or missed your point or the boat .

(Note, I got told I used too many smilies, so I have removed them. Now I rely on words alone to suggest my gentle touch of humour, at myself, I point out.)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think that much of the discussion's nature in the foreword thread is due to the nature of the foreword -- the misgivings of some here, myself included, that this chapter-by-chapter subforum will become dominated by a few "learned" people (read, perhaps, windbags such as myself) will probably be allayed when we get into the discussion of the story itself.

Those of us who are or who become more regular posters might be able to help this along by attempting to have our first posts for each chapter move toward asking questions and dangling provocative ideas rather than making set arguments. I find that's always the most useful way for me to proceed: I have learned a lot from reading other people's responses to my queries/ramblings/ponderings.

I shall also attempt to expunge from my posts all words derived from critical theory! :eek:

EDIT -- as a point of interest, the Foreword thread has had over 1200 views on only 75 posts: so I assume that there are a lot of people following the discussion who have yet to contribute. If we undertake to make the discussion more clearly focused on the story (beginning with the Prologue) that will perhaps draw some of them in(?).

[the phantom]

I have not read the foreword discussion but I plan on getting into this chapter by chapter thing relatively soon. In the meanwhile, I'm finding this suggestion box thread rather interesting.
I think posts should be more open and accessible to everyone in the Barrow-Downs, not just a few more 'learned' people.
Fingolfin II, could you explain what you mean by 'more open and accessible'?....Or would you prefer not to see outside critics and scholars quoted with their ideas about Tolkien?
I don't know if that's what he meant, but that certainly is an issue. For one thing, I want to hear what you guys think and I want you to hear what I think. Critics and scholars should take a back seat to us and only be quoted if someone thinks that a point the critic/scholar makes is good and can't possibly be put into better words. Also, when some critic or scholar is quoted they are nearly always speaking in "university paper" language, as Squatter so aptly put it. And I'm sure for many Downers, "university paper" posting equals less fun. This, of course, is not always the case, but it can be.

I haven't read the thread in question, but I can certainly recall viewing other threads that contained lengthy, academic posts that seemed to suck the oxygen right out of the room. The posts were full of words but there was very little meaning per word. This is what happens when a poster has a way to express himself that would use about one tenth the space but elects to take the long road.
I don't think anyone who posted wanted to deter others from posting--certainly there is nothing here like the curt, short, sharp style the guys used when I came to BD.
I don't know what to say about that. It was in part the curt, short, sharp style I saw that made me join this forum. That sort of style gets across the same idea in less space and makes me smile at the same time.

For instance, let's say someone starts a new thread and asks "Why did Feanor want to chase Morgoth so bad?" I would prefer to see someone post something like this-

So, did you miss the parts where it said-
1) Feanor loved his dad
2)Morgoth killed his dad
3)Feanor loved his jewels
4)Morgoth stole his jewels

I'd rather see that than some super long post dripping with psychology terms that ends up saying no more than the previous post. The only way I'd want a long post is if it says a lot more. You know, begins to ponder why Feanor felt this way about this, and what he might've been thinking at this time, and what he might've said to so and so at this other time. But all too often it's just smart sounding posts taking up way too much space.

I love the curt, short, sharp style.

But of course this discussion isn't going to mean anything once we get past the foreword because I agree with these posts-
What I hope is that in moving into the actual chapters more people will contribute to discussion.
I think once we hit "fun" chapters, more people will want to throw in their two cents.
I agree that the foreword isn't the most interesting part of the book for a lot of readers. I'm sure that the Prologue and A Long-Expected Party will draw a lot more people into the discussion who are more interested in Hobbits than allegory versus applicability.
I'm sure more people will be posting soon.

[HerenIstarion]

And some of us just have our own 'hobby horses' to ride as we challenge each other back and forth about our ideas.

very true :). Suppose I do not dare swim out into deep waters besides shallow pools of my interest, but I'm good at splashing in there where I can feel the ground under my toes

Not to stray off to personal self-analysis - to the benefit of the discussion to come, I remember in the past when it was done in the chat room, the preliminaries were made to find out how well (and in what way) the text itself was understood. Sharku was asking questions as to how well do we know meanings of rare words. Only after 15 minutes of such a warm-up the discussion proper took off. I can not tell the means of doing it on the board (as opposed to chatroom), but I liked idea at its time, maybe recalling it here may give someone an inspiration to come up with something :)

well...


edit: cross posted with the phantom here

The retelling of the plot is not a solution - it will make the initial posts a bit of a bore for those who do their homework well, and those who are lazy won't read it anyway
But that kind of quiz may work, you know. But only if combined with something more serious. You'd be drawing newbies in, but scaring old philosophy masticators away, for

some super long post dripping with psychology terms that ends up saying no more than the previous post.

Always says the same thing in a subtly different way. It seems like bringing oxygen back ;) for some

So, the solution probably will be something in between - starting with simple quiz, and than let everybody say it in a way they like. After all, you are bored by some post, you skip it and go on.

[davem]

I can only say that I was slightly disappointed that we started with the Forword, as I knew it could only lead to analysis of Tolkien the man & his motives. I went too far in such analysis, & possibly deterred some others from posting - if so I'm sorry.

I can see valid reasons for sticking to LotR, or at least to LotR, Hobbit - possibly with relevant references to the Sil, leaving aside Letters, Home, UT, Trying as far as possible to approach LotR as if its all we have.

The only danger is the thread decending into 'I think Aragorn is really cool' or I really liked it when the Ringwraiths attacked the Hobbits under Weathertop', etc. As long as it doesn't go that way I think it will be a very interesting experience.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Davem, you said:

The only danger is the thread decending into 'I think Aragorn is really cool' or I really liked it when the Ringwraiths attacked the Hobbits under Weathertop', etc.

I could not agree more that we don't want the thread(s) to be dominated by comments like this, but such comments -- when made -- are wonderful opportunities to open up the discussion. If (and when) we have a poster say "I think Aragorn is cool" we can (and should) ask that poster why Aragorn is cool? If the poster is particularly singling out the attack at Weathertop, we ask "Why is this attack the cool part about Aragorn, rather than his ability to heal Frodo after?"

Everyone's opinion springs from a response to something in the text, and every opinion is extremely useful to everyone else's understanding. This is not just a pose I adopt for the sake of discussion on the BD, it's a truth that I live by in both my personal and professional life!

[Fingolfin II]

I think The Phantom is right when he/she says:

Critics and scholars should take a back seat to us and only be quoted if someone thinks that a point the critic/scholar makes is good and can't possibly be put into better words.

I agree that the Foreword doesn't offer much scope for many people to post, as it is concerned largely with Tolkien's motives and thoughts. However, when we discuss the actual book I think more people will participate as they'll realise they don't need to write 2 or 3 pages on the events that occur. So by following The Phantom's advice (quoted above), hopefully less people will be put off by how long the posts are and the seemingly 'deep' discussion (i.e. about Theology and other myths, etc.) and will have something worthwhile to contribute, even if it's only two or three lines long. So, Bêthberry that's what I mean about making posts 'more open and accessible' to everyone, by not getting carried away with (sometimes obscure) aspects of the book that people may not have a knowledge of, but to stick to the point and something everyone can relate to (i.e. Aragorn's quest for King). I admit that making posts 'more open and accessible' was a rather vague statement though :rolleyes:.

In answer to your comment on the age gap between some Barrow-Downs users I totally agree. I'm only fifteen, whereas others are much older and some are even younger. This does contribute to potential misunderstandings between people who have been on for a longer time, and those who have not.

However, I also believe that while more 'experienced' posters should aim to try and make their post so everyone can reply (I realise that this is not always possible, especially in debates about HoME and The Letters), the onis should also be on new posters to contribute to the discussion themselves.

Hope that all makes sense.

EDIT: What I should have said is that the discussions should be 'more open and accessible' to everyone.

[Durelin]

I agree that the foreword isn't the most interesting part of the book for a lot of readers.

Oh rats...I think then, that I will step back and let those who find the rest of the book more interesting post their brains out! ;)

the discussions should be 'more open and accessible' to everyone.

Are they really not accessible? I believe the accessibility of a discussion is entirely up to the individual poster. Forgive my horrid use of metaphors, but: 'the door is there, and they must open it.'

For my part, I think this 'Chapter-By-Chapter' discussion will get many new posters into the in-depth discussions, and hopefully help make them a permenant browser and poster of the Books forum. I know that this is what is has done for me, I hope. I truly have missed out for quite some time...

-Durelin

[Alchisiel]

As a new comer to LotR and to this site, I would like to comment as to why I wouldn't feel comfortable posting to this forum. It's not intentional of course but I'm very intimidated by most of you because most of you have read the books over and over again while the newbies have read them at least once. I myself am now reading LotR for the second time. All of that knowledge can be quite intimidating.

The only reason I checked out this forum was because I finally got the guts to do it. I wanted to see what you talked about to see if I could join in on the conversation. There are quite a lot of you that speak very eloquently and that can be intimidating also. For me personally I have always been intimidated by someone who speaks so eloquently because it makes me feel so common.

These are just my feelings on the matter and I could be totally wrong about the whole thing. From what I've read you folks were hinting about it so I thought I would take the initiative and just say it point blank. Hopefully I have not offended anyone because that was not my intent.

[Son of Númenor]

Alchisiel It's not intentional of course but I'm very intimidated by most of you because most of you have read the books over and over again while the newbies have read them at least once. I myself am now reading LotR for the second time. All of that knowledge can be quite intimidating.I can see how it might be intimidating to jump in on discussions like those that went on in the Foreword thread, but when we read the book chapter-by-chapter, try to think of it as your first time reading it. Just write any observations you make, any feelings you feel towards characters and events, and any emotions you experience while reading. If you do that, then it does not matter how many times you have read the chapter in question before. It does not matter if the person who posts before you has read the book 3,087 times and you are reading it for the first time.

This endeavour seems simple to me: read the chapters, share what you think, and discuss your thoughts to gain a better understanding of your personal experience with The Lord of the Rings. :)

[Fingolfin II]

Great advice, Son of Númenor.

Alchisiel, the people who write 'eloquently' with proper grammar and spelling do so to make it easier and more enjoyable for others to read. However, I can understand that the 'deep' discussions of those who have read the books several times can seem a bit daunting and discourage newbies from contributing, especially if they think their comments and opinions don't 'match up' or aren't good enough when compared to the posts of the more experienced BD-ers. That shouldn't be the case though; as Son of Númenor said, it doesn't matter how small or insignificant you think your post will be- just post it, get involved in the discussion and try and learn from other posters.

I'm no expert, but I try my best to add to a discussion and sometimes the points I raise are discussed even though I think that they are not well made. This adds to my confidence so I am able to make better and more worthwhile contributions in the future (better contributions does not necessarily mean longer posts). I think this will also work for you and any other shy Barrow-Downers.

There are quite a lot of you that speak very eloquently and that can be intimidating also. For me personally I have always been intimidated by someone who speaks so eloquently because it makes me feel so common.

Writing eloquently, as I said before, is customary for most on the Barrow-Downs Forum as it is much more pleasant to understand and read. Language like 'r u thinking aragorn iz cool' doesn't seem as nice to read and can be quite hard to understand. By the way, I think you were pretty 'eloquent' yourself in that post :).

[Durelin]

It's not intentional of course but I'm very intimidated by most of you because most of you have read the books over and over again while the newbies have read them at least once.

My confession is: I have only read The Lord of the Rings, cover to cover, once! There is not enough time in any life to read all the books that need reading! All those discussing the book in the Chapter-By-Chapter thread will need to read as they discuss. I know that most thoughts come as rather abrupt revelations, not after years of contemplation and study. Though I guess I might be accidently belittling some members of this forum right now...please forgive! :D

Alchisiel - Look! You've already written a three paragraph post, and on the suggestions thread! I think you'll do fine. ;)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Son of Numenor wrote

This endeavour seems simple to me: read the chapters, share what you think, and discuss your thoughts to gain a better understanding of your personal experience with The Lord of the Rings.

Hear hear! *Fordim claps* Hear hear!

[Orofaniel]

First of all I would just say that the Chapter to Chapter forum is looking....awesome. =D I'm very positive towards the idea, and I plan on spending some time there when it starts for full.

I've noticed a lot of questions regarding whether the more "experienced" posters should make their posts easier to understand so that everyone can reply afterwards. Fingolfin wrote:
However, I also believe that while more 'experienced' posters should aim to try and make their post so everyone can reply (I realise that this is not always possible, especially in debates about HoME and The Letters), the onis should also be on new posters to contribute to the discussion themselves.

I wouldn't say it is the "experienced" posters that make it difficult and hard for others to reply. When I read the really "old" ( :smokin: ) BarrowDowner's posts I find their thoughts and ideas very interesting. This is mostly because I know they have more knowledge than myself. I don't feel the need to post to add my own views sometimes; I just want to read others opinions, and I like that. Every time I usually find a couple of posters with the same views as mine. However, if I wanted to add something I would. I don't think anyone should be afraid to post on the big discussions because your opinions are just as important as ever one else’s' opinions.

The main reason I don't usually post on the big discussions is that I'm too late to discover them! I start reading them when there are two pages and so on. The difficulty for me is simply to keep track with the posters. :eek:

I really hope that the Chapters by Chapters discussions will go slower, although I doubt it. ;) It would, however, be fun to see more posters. As a matter of fact, I would like to post more on those really good book discussions; I'm only hoping it doesn't move too fast. =P (Don’t get me wrong though; I still want good, long book discussions…..)

Cheers,
Oro

[Guinevere]

I agree very much with what Orofaniel wrote! I read much, much more than I post myself.The main reason I don't usually post on the big discussions is that I'm too late to discover them! I start reading them when there are two pages and so on. The difficulty for me is simply to keep track with the posters. Well, I sit and read for hours these fascinating threads (yes! I've read the whole "Canonicity" thread!), silently shaking my head or nodding enthusiastic approval, and thinking up all sorts of replies, but when I've come to the end of the thread, it is usually so that everything I think and wanted to say has already been expressed by others who at that wrote it much better than I would be able to. And I think the BarrowWight doesn't approve of posts that merely say: "Great post! You said the very thing that was in my mind! "etc. So I usually daren't reply, even if I would like to express my approval and admiration.
Also I'm a bit in awe of all those erudite and eloquent Downers as well ;) But this is by no means meant as a reproach!! I don't want anything different! I'm enjoying reading all those big discussions and I have learnt incredibly much that way.

I think this "chapter by chapter"reading is a good opportunity for me to reread the books once more from beginning to end and not merely in random bits like in the past year.

[Mister Underhill]

There's a lot of great advice here.

I certainly am aware of how difficult it is for a new person to carve out a niche on an established board. Getting a curt, dismissive reply can be discouraging, but having your post be completely overlooked and ignored can be just about as dispiriting.

Here's a couple of tips on ways for less established members to successfully join a discussion:

Try to engage other members when you post. You can build a reputation just by making good posts and waiting to eventually get noticed, but it can be a slow process on an older, faster-paced board like the Downs. One thing that can help you along is to actively engage the other participants in the discussion. Read others' discussion points, then challenge them, ask questions about them, give your reactions to them, expand on them.
Give reputation -- and sign your comments. We all like to get positive feedback, and few things will get someone to stop and check out your posts more than remembering that they got positive comments from you. Naturally, I don't mean that you should run around handing out fake reputation just to get people to like you. Be genuine. If you liked something, say so. Don't blow smoke, just be sincere.
If the established members really want to see more new faces actively participating, then we need to encourage them when they appear. It's easy to forget that if you're an established member, you can post just about anything and feel confident that at least a few people will read and respond to what you've said.

These same two tips can be used by more experienced and established members to help others out.

Engage other members. If you notice that someone has posted and that no one has reacted to it, throw the person a lifeline and engage their post.
Give reputation; sign it. You know the drill; if you see something you like, reward it! Think about how cool it feels to get positive comments, then take the time to give some of that back to others who deserve it. It will embolden them to post more often.
To wind up an overlong post, I think Son of Númenor's advice in post #16 is right on the money.

Read, share, discuss.

It's that simple.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I do realise that this is probably a 'nothing' post, soon to be deleted by a mod if not by the BW himself, but. . .

I just had a peek at the Who's Online (I admit: I am a stalker -- bad Fordim!) and saw that at the moment there are no fewer than six people viewing the 12 hour old Prologue Thread.

I think that this bodes well for getting people involved!

[Bêthberry]

About the attractiveness of short posts, the phantom, I concur. There was a reason why Diamond18 called this place the burra-Downs.

And about the number of times that the more senior (older?) (arthritic?) members of the Downs have read the books: not all of us have read them annually over decades.

I first read LOTR as a furtive, 'guilty pleasure' read for fun to balance my 'required' reading for my studies. Then later as I was slogging my way through translating the Old English works I came to know Tolkien's academic stuff and learnt how much of his writing gives new breath and life to the old language and culture. Four years ago, I reread The Hobbit as preparation for escorting a school class to a live theatre production of The Hobbit (brilliant performance from the actor/gymnast who played Gollem!). Three years ago, at the bedside of an ill relative undergoing painful and extensive medical tests, I reread LOTR and became aware for the first time of how prevalent are the themes of loss and death. Thus, this Chapter by Chapter reading will be only my third reading.

I post in perpetual fear that the "annual readers" will always find some obscure line that will undo me. :p ;)

[*Varda*]

I'm sure more people will begin posting as we go into the actual chapters. I only lately saw that this was happening, and have spent the evening reading the entire thread on the Prologue (not an easy task...) after a long and regretted departure from the forum. (I will try and stay back here, this time!)

As for the discussion being more 'accessible', I really think that depends on the individual reader. While perhaps some members could use less shockingly big words :p (that, I confess, do daunt me sometimes) it won't kill some people to pick up a dictionary and look up a word. :rolleyes: Like me.

Just give it a little bit more time, and some more people will drop by to see what's going on.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

perhaps some members could use less shockingly big words
Oh, but *Varda*, why go through all the effort of typing up a half dozen different words, when one does the trick so nicely?

Actually, to be more serious about the big word issue... I don't know if this holds true for anybody else, but when I'm speaking or writing, I use whatever word comes to mind, and it rarely occurs to me that somebody may not know what it means. I got accused a couple of weeks ago in class of "giving a definition that needs a definition." I believe I was asked to define 'ubiquitous' and I said 'omnipresent.' It didn't occur to me until I got yelled at by my friends that the teacher was the only person who knew what I meant. So although we can *try* to ease up on the university lingo, a lot of our Big Word Posters may not even realize that they're doing it.

[Fingolfin II]

I don't see that using big words is really much of a problem. It's one thing to use a seemingly large word to better describe something, but it's another thing to be verbose and use 'university language' for the sake of using it. I agree with *Varda* that if people don't know the meaning of a word they should take two seconds to look it up in the dictionary.

[Arkenstone]

Feanor of the Peredhi

Very interesting, however, it is the writers job to make themselves understood not the readers job to do so.

Big words do not for intelligence make. Some of the most profound statements in human history are said in very few words and are totally understandable to those of higher and lesser intelligence than the writer :smokin:

[Lalaith]

Hmmm.....but what would Tolkien do?

Should his editor have told him "hey JRR, you can't come out with all this 'begone foul dwimmerlaik' stuff because it's alienating and elitist and in fifty years time a bunch of college kids won't know what the hell you're talking about. What's wrong with simple English - 'beat it you creepy monster'."

This is a forum devoted to the works of a professor of philology. Philology is the study of words but it literally means 'love of language.' If you come across a word you don't understand, in a book or on this forum or anywhere else, do Tolkien the honour of looking it up in a dictionary.
Ok you won't find dwimmerlaik in most dictionaries, I admit, ;) but the advice holds good otherwise.

[Guinevere]

I agree, Lalaith!
Btw, in the new German translation Wolfgang Krege actually [I]did[B] modernize Tolkien's language! *shudders* (If anymone is interested in details about that, see my old thread Tolkien Translations (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1601&highlight=Tolkien+Translations) )

[The Saucepan Man]

I've been rather "out-of-the-loop" in the last two weeks, but I'm back now and hoping to resume participation once I have done my "homework" and caught up on all the posts.


And about the number of times that the more senior (older?) (arthritic?) members of the Downs have read the books: not all of us have read them annually over decades. Hehe. I'm with Bb on this one. This time round will probably be about the fifth or sixth time that I have read the book, and I have only read it once previously in the past 15 years or so (which is why I am so relishing the opportunity of reading it again). Much of my background knowledge (such as it is) has been gleaned from reading, and contributing to, the threads on this forum.

As for the style of posts, I think that everyone should post in the style with which they feel comfortable (txtspk excepted ;) ). If you have something of substance to say, it doesn't really matter how you say it (provided that it is intelligible, of course, and I don't see that being a problem here). As for "academic" style posting, there are (as has been said) dictionaries available on-line. And if you still don't understand what someone is trying to say, then don't be afraid to question it. I am sure that no one here will take exception to being asked to clarify their point (and I can think of many, myself included, who would relish the opportunity ... :D ;) ).

[Child of the 7th Age]

Slightly off topic but pertinent to future discussion.....

Yes, I thought this would be an incentive to read the whole thing methodically which, to tell the truth, I have not done in years and years. RS and the others came out sosme fifteen to seventeen years ago, and that's the only time I sat down to read them through cover-to-cover! I do pick up the volumes quite frequently to look something up, but that is different than a concentrated reading. This seems like a good time to do that.

Mark 12_30 -

As I read the varying drafts of the chapters, I am planning to be on the lookout for certain things. One of these is the question we raised in a much earlier thread: whether the later revisions were the point that Tolkien added the "Christian and Catholic" elements we talk so much about. I'll be looking for hints of providence and the specific references that Tolkien discussed in his letters like lembas, Galadriel's characterization, etc. to see when these first came in. Of course, Tolkien is the one who said in his Letters that the "Christian and Catholic" elements were added in the later revisions. But sometimes what we remember and what we've actually done is different, even for Tolkien who was certainly trying to tell the truth. We shall see...

[mark12_30]

Child and Esty :

Would it be polite to open a thread(s) as needed for the HoLotR discussions? I'm a bit concerned that bringing Marmaduke, Odo and Bingo into the regular discussions could confuse some of the participants or discourage them, and get the discussions off track. That would hardly encourage broad participation in the LotR threads. And I'd like to be free to get as in-depth as we'd like regarding Bingo, Trotter, et al.

Since the participants will be fewer, we can do threads by groups of chapters, or by books, or what not. We could even put them in Books.

What think ye?
--mark12_30

[HerenIstarion]

Bingo is already there, I believe (or, even, I know), for I put him in myself ;)

Well, I suppose it is all right to bring those gentlemen in as long as poster provides satisfactory explanation who they are (and, of course, who they become, if they did, that is)

[mark12_30]

H-I-- I think your brief reference was fine; you were clear on who you were referring to and why, and the quick reference you made was not off-topic to Fordim's original intent in any way.

However, knowing Child (and me) we will be diving deeper than that, and it doesn't seem fair to burden Fordim's discussion with the detail I anticipate. Child has *already* played Trotter, and we are both certified (certifiable?) Frodophiles; Child states she will be looking for Catholic & Christan references; I will also be looking quite hard at Dreams and Visions (especially Frodo's-- er, sorry, Bingo's)... I'm uncertain what level of fanaticism Esty will bring to the mix. But it doesn't seem quite fair to put it on Fordim's thread.

If needed, we can certainly post links back and forth... Perhaps we should agree to, so that any who are interested may pursue. Nevertheless, I think discussing HoLotR won't take NEARLY as many threads as The Big Discussion will.

**second thought**

I suppose, if new threads were frowned upon, we could sort of "cordon off" our HoLotR discussions on the main thread with asterisks or titles or something. "Those not interested in Bingo may skip this section." But then our discussions will be fragmented and harder to follow.

...Child? Esty?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

For what it's worth I see no problem with bringing in material from HoME here -- that material is all relevant and interesting and illuminating of the text insofar as it is all really just drafts of the final product and not separate works of their own.

[The Barrow-Wight]

I think we need to keep HoME stuff out of the Chapter-by-chapter discussions. The idea was to discuss the Lord of the Rings and not the entire span of JRRT's writings, right?

[Mister Underhill]

Although I'll probably be too busy to follow along in HoME, I think such discussion could have great general appeal and I'd hate to see it carried off into separate threads.

I think that as long as members who introduce HoME material are careful to annotate such contributions (and, I guess I should add, are careful not to let it dominate and overpower the "straight" discussion), I think we'll be fine.

EDIT: Whoops -- cross-posting with BW. Well, this is the Feedback and Suggestion Box. What do others think? Is there general interest?

If not, how can we accomodate the few who are interested? I don't think cluttering up this Chapter-by-Chapter section with "alternate draft" threads is the answer.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

In thinking further about having HoME in the discussion -- I have never read these volumes :o and doubt that I will have the time to do so at any point in the near future. If they crop up from time to time here then I could learn about them as we go without having to do the heavy lifting myself!

So long as those who want to refer to those works do so as they have been already, I think that material can only add to the discussion.

[The Barrow-Wight]

I don't think cluttering up this Chapter-by-Chapter section with "alternate draft" threads is the answer.
That was my real meaning, Mister Underhill. We've already had concerns about the Chapter-by-Chapter discussions being available to everyone, so we must be careful not to go roaming away from our true purpose - a Chapter by Chapter discussion of the Lord of the Rings. HoME is a wonderful resource for those who are interested in delving so deeply into the foundations of the story, but HoME is not LotR.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that it would be illuminating to include brief references to the HoME writings where this serves to support or clarify a point raised in relation to the final text. Anything more detailed than that, however, would I think only serve to confuse the discussion, particularly as many of us haven't read any of the HoME series yet (OK OK, I know! It's on my list, alright. :rolleyes: ;) ).

If there is to be a more detailed discussion of the HoME material, I would suggest opening new threads for this in the Chapter-by-Chapter section.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Agreed. I'm not suggesting we never wander beyond the boundary of the pages of the LotR. Well-annotated and pertinence references to ther sources can be quite interesting, but only if they don't pull us away from the chapter at hand.

[davem]

Barrow-Wight
I think we need to keep HoME stuff out of the Chapter-by-chapter discussions. The idea was to discuss the Lord of the Rings and not the entire span of JRRT's writings, right?

& HoME is a wonderful resource for those who are interested in delving so deeply into the foundations of the story, but HoME is not LotR.


The thing that has always made me uncomfortable about the publication of the volumes of HoME that related to LotR is that, unlike the material contained in the other volumes, we know for a fact that Tolkien had rejected the stuff in the early drafts of LotR.

This begs the question of whether that material should play any part in a discussion of LotR. Part of me wants it included in this discussion, but I know the danger - that it would exclude too many people who aren't familiar with HoME.

Also, we have to keep in mind always, that some readers like to indulge in the fantasy that LotR is 'real' history, & don't want to be reminded that its all 'made up' by being presented with different versions of the story - it can destroy the magic (breaking things to find out what they're made of, etc) Besides, the Books forum is still going - we don't have to include everything in the chapter-by chapter section.

[The Saucepan Man]

On another point, I'm probably being terribly "anoraky" here, but would it be possible to amend the titles of the Foreword and Prologue threads to include something like "A." before the heading? Otherwise they appear below the chapter threads when organised alphabetically by thread title.

[Mister Underhill]

We've been careful to name the threads to make sure they sort properly. Sort by thread title, ascending, and everything should be hunky-dory.

[The Saucepan Man]

Oops! I was sorting by "thread starter". Never noticed that little double dash in there. Just ignore me! :rolleyes:

[mark12_30]

BW, I agree that cluttering up the Chapter-by-Chapter area is not good. That was why I suggested (a) thread(s) in Books proper.

Still waiting for Child and Esty to weigh in... ;)

[Bêthberry]

I share the same hesitations which BW and Mr. Underhill have about letting HoME material intrude too greatly into the Chapter by Chapter discussion. There are already readers who have questioned whether the discussion is for older or newer members and I think too great a reference to HoME would discourage the newer members who likely have read neither HoME nor UT or quite possibly even The Silm.

It is very tempting for those of us who have had previous discussions on the various topics to assume unconsciously a knowledge of those discussion and go on from there. This I think we have to be careful of, and remember always to provide links and explanations so that the newer members feel drawn into the discussion and not excluded because it looks like an insiders' talk.

I think we are all carefully balancing between what is/was our 'first' reading experience and our later reading experiences of LOtR. Much as I am intrigued by alternate texts--and certainly have no fear of knowledge of them destroying my enjoyment of the final published version--I think the fun of this discussion is the exploration of how we all read in so many different ways. To include many versions would I think take away this focus on our unique reading experiences towards trying to create some 'authoritative interpretation.' This could possibly discourage those who don't see or follow or understand 'the party line' (said jokingly of course) and we would thereby be losing others who have much to offer.

Cheers.

[tar-ancalime]

davem said:

Also, we have to keep in mind always, that some readers like to indulge in the fantasy that LotR is 'real' history, & don't want to be reminded that its all 'made up' by being presented with different versions of the story - it can destroy the magic (breaking things to find out what they're made of, etc)

I think that alternate versions of stories promote the fantasy/conceit/whatever that LotR et al is real history. It seems to me that most of historical research consists of sifting through conflicting reports of events and trying to find or compile the account that is most in accordance with the historian's motives (such as an abstract idea of "truth," the glorification or demonization of particular historical figures or cultures, or some parallel with present events, for instance). The messier and more contradictory the sources, the more they are like real historical primary sources.

Not that I'm trying to weigh in on whether HoME should be part of these discussions--I haven't read it myself, and in fact haven't even been posting much on the chapter-by-chapter discussions, simply because they move too fast for me to keep up! I'm enjoying following along, though. There are lots of great ideas going around. :)

(I apologize if this comment is not appropriate for this thread--it's not really a suggestion at all--it's just that the possibility of alternate accounts is one of the things that I've always liked best about Tolkien.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've read through the various suggestions here and agree that HoME should play only a small part in the Chapter-by-Chapter LotR discussions, since it is another book altogether. However, the parallel discussion is interesting for those who would like to join in, including myself. I suggest we open a thread on the main Books forum, named after the volume being discussed - in this case, The Return of the Shadow.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Please excuse my absence. I had my hands full today with family obligations and was surprised to return and find I had unknowingly generated a small "tornado". :)

Your suggestion seems wise, Esty, regarding a separate thread. My initial intent was not to start a full-scale discussion of HoMe, although I will be glad to contribute to such a thread in the Books forum. Rather it was a personal resolve to read through the two books in tandem, and, where something was directly pertinent to the wider discussion, to mention that briefly in the chapter thread-- perhaps just two or three sentences--in the same way that many others have quoted various sources. I am assuming this wouldn't be a problem.

Yes, on my own time, I do intend to look at certain things in depth, and one of these is the vexing question of how and when Tolkien's "Christian" revisions came about. But, if I found something interesting, I assumed that it would eventually go up on a separate thread in Books, either an old one or a new one.

Just one comment as to the importance of HoMe.... my interest in HoMe is not so much in looking at those ideas and motifs that were rejected, but rather to see exactly when the ideas, characters, names, etc. that did become part of the book first made their appearance. In this sense, I do think HoMe is more than simply a collection of rejected drafts. Each draft built on the one before. Through its pages, we can gain a better idea of how JRRT constructed his story, the process of writing and evolving ideas. But I do agree that such an in-depth discussion would be better off separate from the chapter-by-chapter thread.

I hope this clarifies things, at least in terms of what I was thinking.

[Mister Underhill]

That sounds perfectly reasonable. We've already started out in that spirit with discussion of the original version of the Foreword. A few references to points of interest on how or why certain elements developed would be, I think, generally interesting and not exclusionary.

More in-depth discussion of a particular point, or of aspects of HoME which might not fit well here, can be carried on in the Chapter-by-Chapter HoME Companion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10847) thread that I've set up in Books.

We'll start with one thread for now and see how it goes. We can easily expand to, say, a thread per HoLotR book if it looks like the conversation will bear it.

[HerenIstarion]

Suggestion: let us make a thread (or even a poll) for "the most popular chapter in the book"?

let me explain myself:

Chapter by Chapter discussion sub-forum provides information in two categories: most replies and most views. I suppose both can index how much people enjoy this or that particular chapter. Purely statistical calculations show that the most popular (?!) is the prologue:

The situation as for today:

Replies:

1. Prologue - 101
2. Foreword - 97
3. Chapter 02 - 76

4. Chapter 01 - 64
5. Chapter 10 - 58
6. Chapter 03 - 56
7. Chapter 04 - 53
8. Chapter 07 - 45
9. Chapter 05 - 36
10. Chapter 06 - 32
11. Chapter 08 - 28
12. Chapter 11 - 15
13. Chapter 09 - 14

Views:

1. Foreword - 2,201
2. Prologue - 1,752
3. Chapter 01 - 1,295

4. Chapter 02 - 1,194
5. Chapter 03 - 976
6. Chapter 04 - 774
7. Chapter 07 - 704
8. Chapter 10 - 610
9. Chapter 06 - 519
10. Chapter 05 - 510
11. Chapter 08 - 473
12. Chapter 09 - 317
13. Chapter 11 - 217

So, the overall ratio would be:

1. Prologue ((1+2)/2 = 1.5)
-. Foreword ((2+1)/2 = 1.5)
3. Chapter 02 ((3+4)/2 = 3.5)
-. Chapter 01 ((4+3)/2=3.5)
5. Chapter 03 ((6+5)/2=5.5)
6. Chapter 10 (5+8)/2=6.5)
7. Chapter 04 ((7+7)/2=7)
8. Chapter 07 ((8+7)/2=7.5)
9. Chapter 05 ((9+10)/2=9.5)
-. Chapter 06 ((10+9)/2=9.5)
11. Chapter 08 ((11+11)/2=11)
12. Chapter 11 ((12+13)/2=12.5)
-. Chapter 09 ((13+12)/2=12.5)

Now, both depend on time of each particular chapter discussion being around (the latter, by views, more so), and the summer time and lack of number of members due to their vacation time may be affecting the statistics too, but I believe it would be fun to compare the notes by the end of the discussion maraphon. The chapter with the ratio most close to 1 will be the winner.

What do you think?

[Bêthberry]

Ah, sweet HerenIstarion, how you do love numbers as well as words!

If I may be so bold, I think there is a flaw in this arguement, a fly in the ointment, a false ipso facto, a road incorrectly taken etc. What if the replies and the views are inspired not so much by Tolkien's chapters as by the threads themselves, by the very ideas the posters raise about the chapters? After all, I have a wee hunch that some of us just love to niggle away at each other's arguements more than discuss the Professor. *shocked look that such might be the case, but fears it is*

Now, if such is the case, these statistics generate "Most popular discussion" rather than "Most popular chapter". We might even be able to generate a "Most common duelling posters" statistic or something like that. The "Pens at fifty paces" award!

Mayhap it is the presence of certain posters which produces the most popular chapter discussion? If Saucy's away, do fewer play? Or is the battle cry, "Meet you at the Fordim" or "On the Mark" ? Is there a dark and winding davem that draws us on? Are we fond of a Red Heron?

You haven't, by the way, been watching too much Olympic coverage have you? I see you don't offer gold, silver and bronze finalists, and so I am heartened.

To be honest, I don't think size of the thread matters much at all. Sometimes the truest heights of a discussion can be reached by shortest or even quickest means. And after all, likely it is different for each of us every time, isn't it? We will each have our own preferred position in regard to the chapters.

Humbly submitted,
Bb

[HerenIstarion]

Maybe you're right, my lady

But with regards to this particular sub-forum, I believe that chapters themselves have their say too (I know which would win the 'most [insert word of your choice here] discussion in the Books award (yes, you guessed it, it's a C-word, a C-word)). But even C-word would loose to certain RPGs, if we set out to find the most popular discussion on the global BD plain.

So, the title maybe modified to run as

Chapter giving most mental pabulum for online debate!

:D

[davem]

Is there a dark and winding davem that draws us on?

Of course there is, but by the time you realise where its leading you, it'll BE TOO LATE!!! Ha ha, ha ha ha! Mwhaaaaaaaa! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Meet you at the Fordim. . .

"beyond the thistly hedge with pistols, or rapiers drawn!"

"Most common duelling posters" statistic or something like that. The "Pens at fifty paces" award!

Of whom is Bb thinking? Any ideas davem, for I am perplexed.

[HerenIstarion]

I suppose you can use it as personal title, when invitation to one reaches you :D

Just look at it:

davem
dark and winding one
post: XXXX

[Bêthberry]

Chapter giving most mental pabulum for online debate!

Spot on, Istarion! (I admire how your nick is so alphabetical. Makes me want to come up with a j/k. :D) And sometimes we have the less refined version, that sort of good, solid Scottish porridge which coats our stomach and girds us for the not debauch but debacle.

And indeed,davem is most entitled. But I suspect in this regard he shall play the iconoclast. ;)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

BD Press Release

Professor Fordim Hedgethistle, BA MA PhD today announced the launch of the Barrow Down's first Non Governmental Organisation: PEster Davem for A New Title (PEDANT).

Prof Hedgethistle told those present that he had learned from "an extremely reliable source" that davem has recieved an offer of a personal title, but that he has -- as yet -- not take up the option of submitting one to the Wight.

Prof Hedgethistle went on to say that he, along with "many other concerned Downers" felt that davem's lack of a title made little sense given his current standing in the reputation rankings, and in particular, given his "remarkable ability to stimulate intelligent discussion in a variety of threads."

All Downers interested in contributing to PEDANT may do so by reviewing the new thread in "Mirth" that Prof. Hedgethistle will be opening soon.

[mark12_30]

Bethberry, Fordim is alphabetical too. Fordim Gauntlet Hedgethistle.

See you at the Fordim, Gauntlets optional, behind the Hedge.

(And while he's titling himself, davem can get with an avatar too.)

[HerenIstarion]

He has both now, my compliments :)

But what about the proposed poll? I suppose, if we are for it, than technically UBB soft allows to make polls (to let it look nicer than mere calculations of mine inside ordinary post)

[Lathriel]

I don't know if this is mentioned before but after we are done with discussing all the chapters how about discussing certain passages that are very powerful.
Then we can say how we feel about them, what we think they mean (If they are ambiguos) or if the foreshadow certain events.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

It's nice to have a new comment on this old thread - knowing that you're thinking of the future of these discussions is encouraging! But why not discuss the powerful passages right in the context of their respective chapters? I'm afraid waiting for an additional discussion would take lots of patience, since it has been suggested and planned that we go through the Hobbit and the Silmarillion chapter by chapter after we finish LotR. That should keep us busy for the next couple of years...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Easter holiday weekend has kept me busy these past days, and I think there are others with little time this week, or who are away on spring break. Therefore I'm postponing the opening of a new chapter thread for a week to give those who wish to post on the current discussion a chance to catch up.

[Bêthberry]

There will be a slight delay in the opening of the next chapter by chapter discussion thread (for "The Choices of Master Samwise"). Please continue discussing the current chapter, "Shelob's Lair," or review any of the previous chapter discussions.

Thanks for your patience! Estelyn will return shortly with the new thread introduction.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The thread for Chapter 10, Book 4 is now up - sorry about the delay, which was due to technical problems with my PC/internet connection.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Esty -

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not but I thought I'd throw it out and see what you think.

I have been so crazy busy this year. One of the things that had to drop was the Chapter by Chapter discussions (not the reading but the posting). Would we want to designate certain times in the summer as "catch up week"......conceivably one week a month, perhaps over two months? No new chapter would go up, but folks would be encouraged to post on discussions they had missed. It's true that people can do this anytime, but you'd likely get more interaction and discussion when you have a number of posts going up at once.

I may be the only one interested in this, and it would slow you down. But I wanted to raise the suggestion.

Child

[davem]

I supposed if we planned to complete our read through by the end of the year then that would give us a couple of months during the summer to do that - people have vacations planned (& some of us will be away in August for a week for Tolkien 2005 - I know Esty is planning to be there so maybe she's planning to put discussion on hold for that week anyway)

In short, I wouldn't have a problem with this....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not but I thought I'd throw it out and see what you think.

I have been so crazy busy this year. One of the things that had to drop was the Chapter by Chapter discussions (not the reading but the posting). Would we want to designate certain times in the summer as "catch up week"......conceivably one week a month, perhaps over two months? No new chapter would go up, but folks would be encouraged to post on discussions they had missed. It's true that people can do this anytime, but you'd likely get more interaction and discussion when you have a number of posts going up at once.

I may be the only one interested in this, and it would slow you down. But I wanted to raise the suggestion.

Hear hear! Hear hear!

I have fallen so far behind :o in the discussion, both with posting and (shame) reading it that I had all but given up even the pretense that I could get back to it. A chance to catch up would be very welcome indeed!!!!!

Perhaps we could aim to have the whole discussion wrapped up in time for the wedding?? ;)

[davem]

We could stop now for a couple of weeks - only a suggestion - as we've just hit the end of vol 2. It would seem the best place, as if we start the next book it will be hard to find a good stopping point till we get to the end of book 5.

Or is this too sudden?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A break is fine with me, if that's wished by a number of active participants. I'd be happy to see more back in the discussion! I'm just not sure yet what's the best way to do it - shall we take a break of several weeks now, at a logical stopping point, as davem suggests? Problem is, I'll be away on vacation for most of June, so if we do stop for now, it would be a long break.

Slowing down to two-week-long intervals would be the alternative - starting the next chapter a week from now and each following one two weeks later for the summer months, then getting back into the one week rhythm in late August.

Please cast your votes for one or the other suggestion - thanks!

[davem]

Well, if we did take a long break here & start up again at the end of June we'd be kind of recreating what happened 50 years ago when LotR was published, with vols 1&2 being published in 1954 & vol 3 in 1955, so we would have a precedent!

It might be good to reassess where we've got to so far, & see if our later ideas have altered our thoughts on earlier chapters...

Having said that....

'The Missus' has just said she favours the two-weekly option so I suppose I have to go for that now...

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

So glad that a slow down is being considered! While I have managed to keep up with the book, for the most part, keeping up with the thread is another matter! This last one looks like it is going along rather well! :eek:

Actually, I am of the opinion that going to two week intervals through the rest of the story and not just the summer, may be something to consider. That would give one week to read the chapter and the other to read the thread (and hopefully contribute). Sorry to offer up a third option here, but I have been having trouble keeping up even in the winter!

[Lathriel]

I wouldn't mind this slow down either since I will be gone a lot this summer. I will be gone for about a month and i don' think I hav time to go on the internet or if I can even get internet acces.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There's not enough feedback on the question of a slowdown for a general consensus yet, so please keep your votes coming! However, I shall start off by postponing this week's new chapter discussion for a week - should a longer break be desired, the postponement can continue after that. If not, the new thread will be up by next Monday. Thanks!

[HerenIstarion]

I have fallen so far behind in the discussion, both with posting and (shame) reading it that I had all but given up even the pretense that I could get back to it. A chance to catch up would be very welcome indeed!!!!!

Though five exclamation marks be sure sign of insane mind... I could sign my name under the statement too...

[Bêthberry]

A slow down is certainly fine by me, as I have been able to keep up only sporadically.

My hesitation about a long hiatus would be the possibility that cranking it up again might be hard to do--what is inactive or not active is easily forgotten, especially on the Net. As to davem's suggestion that we recreate the publishing history of LotR itself, well, alls I can say is that reading Tolkien is probably more exciting than reading our posts; he could handle the hiatus; can we? ;)

I guess I go for the two-week interval and see how it goes. There might not be any reason to go back to the once a week schedule as in the fall people might still be busy and want some breathing time.

jmho

[davem]

Just wondering...

Wasn't this pause in the proceedings intended so that those who had missed out on earlier chapters could catch up & post somthing on them, & maybe spark new debate?

Its starting to look like no-one is doing that. I can understand that those of us who have kept up with the weekly discussions might feel that we have said all we have to say on the chapters so far, so have nothing new to put on, but if no-one is going to bother bringing up anything on the earlier chapters, maybe it would be better to forget this & go back to our regular weekly discussion otherwise all this slow down is going to do is kill the whole discussion off.

Could we maybe have a poll to see what people want? Also, maybe we could have some kind of promise from those asking for a slow down so that they can catch up & contribute that they will actually do that?

[Guinevere]

I regret very much that I have let myself lag behind so far, and am ever so glad if it goes a bit slower now!
But I can't promise to contribute in all the threads I follow because when I have read the chapter, and then the discussion , I usually find that the very things I wanted to say have already been said (and much better than I could say them.) Anyhow, I don't have an analytical mind, and words don't come so easy to me. But I do enjoy reading what you all write! Just picture me sitting in the discussion round, silently nodding (or, occasionally, shaking my head. ;) )

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

...I usually find that the very things I wanted to say have already been said (and much better than I could say them.) ...)

Very well said! ;) I too find that if I get far enough through a discussion the points I wished to make have already been mentioned. But having said that, be it known that I for one am trying to catch up. (Had an RPG post taking up my time and am a little freer at the moment.) I have not posted as yet, not that I would write something beautifully insightful or even particularly orderly, but the intention to add is there.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've posted a poll on the Books forum - please vote there!

I welcome all catchers-up! Your personal thoughts, impressions, and opinions are always unique and worth reading, even when you feel that almost all has been said. Keep on posting!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Looks like meat's back on the menu! - oops, I mean, we now begin the discussion of the first chapter of Book 5, RotK. Please feel free to jump in and join us even if you haven't caught up with all of the previous discussions.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The new thread for the next chapter discussion, normally scheduled to begin this coming Monday, will be opened several days later. I'm away from home, with only the sketchiest of internet access this week, and no RotK with me. Consider it an additional break for those who want to continue catching up! :)

[davem]

Just wondering if Esty could let us know when we'll be back to weekly discussions? Being a bit bored earlier I worked out that if we want to finish by the end of this year we'll have to switch back around 'The Houses of Healing' at the latest (this assumes that we end up spending three weeks on 'Pelennor Fields' due to Esty being away at Birmingham from the 11th -15th of August at least & probably not able to open the discussion that week).

The only problem I can see is that (assuming we feel bound by the deadline of finishing by the end of the year, that is) we'll end up only having a week to discuss some very important chapters, like Mount Doom, Scouring of the Shire, Grey Havens, Aragorn & Arwen, which may actually sustain two weeks worth of discussion better than some of the current ones - the present one seems to have died on its feet :(

All of which rambling is just to ask if we have any kind of definite timescale for the change back? Not wanting to nag, but I've noticed that a number of those who asked for the slowdown in order to be able to join in haven't actually joined in very much, if at all....

Is anyone else ready to get back onto a weekly schedule soon - or at the end of August/beginning of September at the latest, or is the general feeling that we should just continue on at this slower pace till the end, however long that takes us to finish?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Happy to oblige! I would have no problem getting weekly discussions started during these summer weeks, but as a majority of those interested asked for a slowdown over the summer, I will stay with that decision until late August. Then I'd like to return to a weekly schedule in order to finish by the end of the year.

Here's the schedule I've planned:

July 3 - Bk. 5, Ch. 3 (The Muster of Rohan) - current discussion
July 17 - Ch. 4 (The Siege of Gondor)
July 31 - Ch. 5 (The Ride of the Rohirrim)
Aug. 7 - Ch. 6 (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields) - moved up a week due to my absence on Aug. 14
Aug. 21 - Ch. 7 (The Pyre of Denethor)
Aug. 28 - Ch. 8 (The Houses of Healing)
Sept. 4 - Ch. 9 (The Last Debate)
Sept. 11 - Ch. 10 (The Black Gate Opens)
Sept. 18 - Book 6, Ch. 1 (The Tower of Cirith Ungol)
Sept. 25 - Ch. 2 (The Land of Shadow)
Oct. 2 - Ch. 3 (Mount Doom)
Oct. 9 - Ch. 4 (The Field of Cormallen)
Oct. 16 - Ch. 5 (The Steward and the King)
Oct. 23 - Ch. 6 (Many Partings)
Oct. 30 - Ch. 7 (Homeward Bound)
Nov. 6 - Ch. 8 (The Scouring of the Shire)
Nov. 13 - Ch. 9 (The Grey Havens)
following weeks: Appendices

This schedule gives us a bit of leeway for delays due to unplanned circumstances and gets us finished with the LotR discussions before Christmas. How much time we will have for the Appendices remains to be seen then; I haven't yet planned how to divide those into weekly chunks.

[davem]

This schedule gives us a bit of leeway for delays due to unplanned circumstances and gets us finished with the LotR discussions before Christmas. How much time we will have for the Appendices remains to be seen then; I haven't yet planned how to divide those into weekly chunks.

The Appendices are something I've thought about for a while. App. A could be split up into Numenor/SA, Arnor, Gondor, the Stewards. Rohan & the Dwarves as well as Aragorn & Arwen. I think we could spend a week (at least) on App. B & one on App. F - which would make 9 weeks there. As to the Calendars & the writing systems - beyond me. I have to admit, but maybe others would want to spend time on them.

[drigel]

I am happy to hear that the appendixes are being included. Much room for discussion on at least A, B and F!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Summer break is over, and we're now back to weekly discussion threads. You're welcome to jump in with "The Houses of Healing" if you like, or to catch up with previous chapter discussions.

[The Perky Ent]

Will Chapter by Chapter continue on to The Hobbit?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That's what I've planned next. Those discussions should begin in January.

[davem]

Will Chapter by Chapter continue on to The Hobbit?

I'd say that depends on how many people want it to. CbC seems to have slowed down a lot, with very few posts compared to the early chapters.

I have to admit I'm feeling a bit like Frodo & Sam now, plodding on to the end - we still have, what, 10 chapters, plus the Appendices to go.

Will enough of us want to go straight on to TH or shall we have a break?

[The Perky Ent]

Your call. But I've got my Sting sword and my arkenstone ready for when you do :D I think I'll start doing the Chapter by Chapters, as y'all are getting to some good ones

[davem]

Well, we've now begun discussing The Last Debate, but it seems that discussion is still continuing on The Houses of Healing. It seems that people have gotten into the habit of taking two weeks per chapter.

As I said, part of me wants to get to the end, but another part of me is feeling 'pressured'. If we are to take in the Appendices as well, & do them justice, it seems to me that we would have to devote at least a month to Appendix A, so will we have time to do everything by the end of the year? Does everyone want to finish by the end of this year? If we divided App. A up into

1 Numenorean Kings & Eriador, Arnor & the Heirs of Isildur
2 Gondor & the Heirs of Anarion
3 Aragorn & Arwen
4 The House of Eorl & Durin's Folk

Then did App B & C together (along with the unpublished Epilogue to LotR from vol 9 of HoMe if anyone wants to).

& finally App F (just because I can't see much mileage in Apps D&E) we're talking either 17 or 32 weeks depending on whether we take one or two weeks. The two week option would mean finishing around the end of April next year.

Opinions?

Personally, I feel 'torn in two'....

[Lalwendë]

I reckon a slow down to a two week pattern would be good, at least for the present. It seems a lot of members are starting new terms at school/college and this might understandably be taking up a lot of time. But if we go back to two weeks and then return to weekly threads, would this make the 'pattern' on CbC confused?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would hesitate to change and slow down to every two weeks again - during the summer months, experience showed that there wasn't much more posting on a slower schedule. However, I do realize that the Appendices may take longer than I'd reckoned, and I am planning a holiday break at the end of the year - at least three weeks, I should imagine.

I'm actually pleased that people are still posting on previous threads - it shows that they care about those chapters and have something they want to say about them.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This week's thread finishes Book 5 - and so far, it's slow going. Perhaps a week's break would be good before starting Book 6...

[Aiwendil]

The Perky Ent wrote:
Will Chapter by Chapter continue on to The Hobbit?

And Davem:
I'd say that depends on how many people want it to. CbC seems to have slowed down a lot, with very few posts compared to the early chapters.


I'm sorry to say that I'm one of those people who posted a lot on the earlier chapters but have more or less disappeared in the past few months. One of the reasons has simply been that once I got out of the habit of posting on every chapter each week, it was hard to get back into the habit. Of course, I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that if we were to start a discussion of The Hobbit after LotR, my interest would be rekindled and the novelty of the discussion would be enough to get me back into the habit of posting every week.

[davem]

This week's thread finishes Book 5 - and so far, it's slow going. Perhaps a week's break would be good before starting Book 6...

It depends, I suppose, whether anyone is interested in joining in at all. For the last chapter (The Last debate) there were only five posts & both Lalwende & I contributed two each!

Maybe as Aiwendil says a TH CbC would inspire a lot of new contributors but I'm not sure how many of them would stay the course, given what we've seen with recent chapter discussions on LotR.

To be honest I'm not sure I'd want to go straight on to TH after completing LotR - maybe if there was a break of a couple of months before we started, but probably not otherwise. I might leave that task to others.

Is anyone intending to get involved in the rest of the LotR chapter discussions on a regular basis from now on? I'm going to see the whole thing through if (as Bilbo put it) 'I'm spared'.

[Son of Númenor]

I'm sorry to say that I'm one of those people who posted a lot on the earlier chapters but have more or less disappeared in the past few months. One of the reasons has simply been that once I got out of the habit of posting on every chapter each week, it was hard to get back into the habit. Of course, I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that if we were to start a discussion of The Hobbit after LotR, my interest would be rekindled and the novelty of the discussion would be enough to get me back into the habit of posting every week.I made (admittedly minor) contributions to the first few chapters, but after a few weeks' respite I too found myself unable to dive back in. I was actually holding out hope that we could do a Silm reading after this, but TH would be fun too. I agree with davem that a few weeks' or even months' break might do some good.

[Encaitare]

I really enjoy reading CbC, even if I don't post for most chapters. A CbC for the Hobbit and the Silm would be very cool, but I agree that there ought to be a break in between the end of LotR and whatever's next.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I am delaying the start of the next chapter discussion to give those who want to catch up on the last couple of chapters in Book 5 a chance to post there. We will begin the discussions on Book 6 on September 25.

This is a good time for those who have not participated to join us for the final spurt! You'll want to discuss the events at Mt. Doom, in Minas Tirth, the Scouring of the Shire, and the Grey Havens with us, I hope!

[The Perky Ent]

No! It seems I didn't get the memo. I just started getting into the CbC threads. I guess I'll have to jump in for the end. I'm interested to find out if the CbC we're doing is a one time sort of thing, or more of an annual thing to be done each year (or whatever time period works)?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As far as I'm concerned, this is a one time event. After all, the threads remain open for those who wish to post on past discussions. And since people are anticipating CbC discussions of The Hobbit and the Silmarillion (perhaps even other works), it will take years to get back to the LotR. We (or whoever is still around then) will cross that bridge when the time comes - or may even have to build the bridge first! ;)

[davem]

As we're nearly at the end of the story proper, I'm wondering what the plans are for dealing with the Appendices?

Are we going to do each of them, or miss some out (I'm thinking specifically of D&E - does anyone want to spend a week on Calendars or Writing & Pronunciation?)

We could tackle 'Aragorn & Arwen' first, then 'Numenor/Arnor' from Appendix A, followed by Gondor/The Stewards next & then Rohan/Durin's Folk.

Appendices B (C???) & F could be done together in the final week. So, five weeks in all.

Or does anyone have a better idea?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The new thread will be up and ready for posting on Monday. (A weekend trip caused a delay in my usual schedule.)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The new thread will be up and ready for posting on Monday. (A weekend trip caused a delay in my usual schedule.)

Criminey! Some people can be just SO irresponsible and disorganised!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The last chapter discussion has begun, and it's time to plan the discussion of the Appendices. In post # 94 davem made some good suggestions on dividing up the sections of Appendix A; I plan to make separate threads for each of those divisions, though I'm not sure that we need to spend a week on each section. I'd like to start two threads a week when the material we cover is not too extensive. We may just have to play that by ear and see how we come along.

[davem]

I have to admit now to wanting to get to the end of the project. I think Esty's idea is a good one. Out of Appendix A I think the most interesting things (apart, of course, from Aragorn & Arwen) are the encounter with the Lossoth, the battle with the Witch King, the story of Helm & the battle of Azanulbizar. Appendix B does contain the 'Later events involving the members of the Fellowship', & there's some interesting stuff in Appendix F, but I think maybe 3 or 4 weeks in total may be enough time & we could finish by the end of the year - especially as the threads will remain open permanently.

I'd still like to know if anyone wants to discuss Appendices D & E, though - I tend to skim them, but some may have interesting things to say on the Calendars & the writing systems.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'd still like to know if anyone wants to discuss Appendices D & E...

I will post threads for each of those appendices and see if anyone has something to say. I do want to give everyone the opportunity to contribute if they want to; however, I will definitely not hold my breath and wait a week if nothing is forthcoming! :)

I would like to see the project finished by the end of December - as the threads remain open, some may wish to catch up during the holiday break. Others may be glad to finish their posts before Christmas.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Since there's not much discussion on the first Appendix thread, I've posted the second one halfway through the week. This one has more "meat" in it, so I hope for a good discussion! Unless something changes drastically, I plan to continue this rate of two threads a week so as to finish the Appendices before the end of the year.

[Bêthberry]

*gasp* Estelyn Telcontar's alternate personality, Merisuewyniel of the Splintered Ent, breaks out and sets a time limit, something she has been unable to achieve on her Entishprises! Is this Parodia raising her head amidst the hallowed dark ivory tower of Books? Will we next see a Post by Post discussion of The Revenge of the Entish Bow, only to be hurried biweekly through to a deconstruction of The Reunification of the Entish Bow?

Be wery, wery afwaid, Downers. Next she could bring out other means of prodding and prognostication for those who aren't posting and thereby inspiring that classic, Paddle to the Seat of Parody Moot .

[davem]

Is it just me?...

First of all, let me say I was determined to post on each of the Appendices, to have contributed to each of the CbC discussions....but...

Does anyone else feel a sense of 'anti-climax' as far as discussing the Appendices goes. I put something together for the first part of Appendix A, & I've read the second part in preparation for a post, but though I came up with odd things - the pride of the Gondorians leading them from one disaster to another, the fact that in the main it read like a history text, so that when Saruman or the White Council was mentioned it felt a bit out of place, etc, - I just find my heart isn't in the appendices.

I feel like I've finished, that I just want to say 'Shut the book now dad, I don't want to read anymore.' that I can't face posting another thing on CbC (waits for cheering to die down before continuing.......
............
...........
..........)

Ok, so, is it just me, or has anyone else hit the Appendices & just felt 'I can't be bothered'?

The reason I ask is, is it something about the style of the Appendices - 'The Sil' style of it: lots of names & dates, great battles & high tragedy, etc, etc - or to put it another way: no Hobbits? Or maybe that's not it, maybe its that I'm just emotionally drained by the story itself. Whatever the reason, I feel I just can't summon the will or energy to do it.

Tolkien stated their purpose was to provide background, both the movie & the radio series end with Sam's return to Bag End & leave it there. Aren't the Appendices actually just a 'poor man's Silmarillion'? (As I think Heren implied in his post on the Appendix thread - sorry if I've misrepresented your position H-I.

Anyway, is it me, or is it the Appendices?

[Formendacil]

Is it just me?...

Ok, so, is it just me, or has anyone else hit the Appendices & just felt 'I can't be bothered'?

I think it's just you...

For myself, it was the opposite. With most of the chapters, I would dive in after several other posters had, and THEN contribute something. In the case of Book VI, I think I have still to post on close to half the chapters.

But with the Appendices, I'm finding them easier to just jump into, offer some unprompted observations, and not feel the need to wait for inspiration to strike, because the inspiration is striking a lot faster.

Of course, I'm a factoid monkey, so I could just be wierd...

[davem]

Maybe we should get Fordim to start a poll :D

[drigel]

I had hopes, but it's nature lends little to converse, more to observe. Which, for me, makes good reading, others maybe not so much. I did like the Lewis reference concerning Forochel, davem.

[davem]

I had hopes, but it's nature lends little to converse, more to observe. Which, for me, makes good reading, others maybe not so much. I did like the Lewis reference concerning Forochel, davem.

Oh, I enjoyed reading the Appendices - but as background. I think I feel the same as you. Its finding something to discuss about them. I think maybe they're too 'dense', too compacted. Maybe what it is, is I find there's so much there, so compressed, that 'it would take a week's answer or none at all' to discuss each paragraph. I think I feel overwhelmed by them & don't know where to start. After 18 months of working through the book, maybe I'm just tired? Or maybe its that so many characters are introduced, do something, & then die & we're onto someone else - we never get emotionally involved with any of them. Yet many of their stories are tragedies, & I feel I'm not engaged enough by them.

[drigel]

too many honeydo's from Lal wearing you out? :)

Possibly throw the threads out quicker and move on...? If someone wants to post on a prior chapter they can and the other posters get the email, right?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm going at the pace of two threads a week for the Appendices - that's fast enough. I hope that this week's section, "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", will have lots of contributions!

This is like a chapter of the book to me, more interesting and emotional than the rest of the Appendices.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm putting up separate threads for "The House of Eorl" and "Durin's Folk" - that will keep the discussion more focused and less confusing. The rest of the Appendices threads will be going up rather quickly within the next week. Please don't feel hurried or harried - there's plenty of time for discussion, but I know I will have less time the closer we get to Christmas and would like to have this project finished early.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The final LotR thread is up and we have managed to finish this project before 2005 ends! I hope there will be some posting on the Appendix F thread.

Congratulations to us all on an interesting project; special thanks to Fordim for initiating it, and an additional special thanks to davem and Lalwendë, who are, as far as I am aware, the only forum members besides myself to post on each and every thread!!

It took me a little longer to prepare the Appendices threads than I originally thought; thorough reading revealed more substance than I recalled from previous skimming.

I look forward to discussing The Hobbit with many of you in the coming year; I plan to begin with the first chapter in mid-January.

[davem]

Well, its over. (As Sam might have said).

I don't think I'll be joining in The Hobbit disscussion. Without opening up old wounds ;) , I have to repeat what I said about TH not being a part of the Legendarium - which is not to say it doesn't have a special place in my heart (in memory at least). I haven't read it for a while - last time was when I read The Annotated Hobbit two or three years back.

Its either a wonderful children's book when taken for itself, & I'm not sure its possible to analyse it in the way we have LotR. With LotR you can peel away layer after layer & find new depths of meaning & relevance. With TH I fear it would be more like 'breaking a thing to find out what it is made of...

Or, its an 'essay in the craft' which like the productions of the Elven Smiths of Eregion leading to the creation of the Three, led to the creation of LotR. The existence of LotR does away with the necessity of TH as a part of the Legendarium, because all the themes & issues it deals with are dealt with more profoundly & effectively in LotR. The Hobbits of LotR & their world exist because of TH. The Three exist because of those 'essays in the craft - but what happened to them is not known, because they aren't relevant to the big picture.

In short, if its a (great) children's book - which I think it is - we risk ending up pulling it to pieces & ending up like the people in the Beowulf essay allegory with a pile of old stones & no means to look out upon the Sea, & if we treat it as a part of the Legendarium we won't have much to say about its meaning & themes which we haven't said in our CbC discussion of LotR.

Or I could be completely wrong....

I look forward to reading the discussion.

[Lalwendë]

Congratulations to us all on an interesting project; special thanks to Fordim for initiating it, and an additional special thanks to davem and Lalwendë, who are, as far as I am aware, the only forum members besides myself to post on each and every thread!!



I have not posted on all of the threads, alas. :( I missed some of the earliest ones as that must have been at the time the monitor on my old PC was broken, and some others I think I missed as I was away and discussion had shot off into the distance by the time I returned - notably the thread on the Lothlorien chapter!

But there is always time to add some new points to old threads - there may even be more time to go back and revisit them now. ;)

[Bêthberry]

While I'm sure we are all proud that the discussion did prevail and continue to the conclusion of the book, I think special commendations are called for. Estelyn's work in setting up week by week by week (even planning around her holidays and absences) the discussions and guiding the threads has been outstanding. Without her diligence and enthusiasm for the project, I doubt it would have continued. :smokin:

Well done, good and faithful servant! (Well, we are the dead, right?) :D

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for the roses! (I hope you came to praise me, not to bury me! ;) ) And thanks to all those who enjoyed the introductions so much that they bestowed reputation points upon my posts. I appreciate the feedback, and it's nice to know that the discussions are read, even when the posting has sometimes been meager.

This weekend we will begin the chapter-by-chapter discussions of The Hobbit. I may be opening the new thread earlier than Monday; Sunday was often my best day for posting on the LotR discussions, and depending upon my real life schedule, some threads will be up earlier than that. I hope many of you will join in; these chapters are usually shorter and faster reading than LotR, so it should be easier to keep up. I look forward to an enjoyable time!

[Alchisiel]

This may be off topic but I was wondering if there are any plans to read the Sil after The Hobbit is completed. I have many questions about the Sil and would enjoy discussing it chapter by chapter.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I think there are enough members interested to make the Sil a worthwhile CbC discussion. Whether or not I will be the one opening the introductory threads I don't yet know. The Hobbit discussions should take us to late spring or early summer; after that we shall see how much interest there still is.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm sorry for those few who are anxiously awaiting the begin of the next chapter discussion of The Hobbit, but a painful finger injury (small but severe burn) is keeping me from typing more than the briefest of lines today. I hope it will be better tomorrow so that I can post then.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have found an online source which shows Tolkien's own drawings for The Hobbit, for those of you who do not have them for reference:

Tolkien Hobbit pictures (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.collecttolkien.com/images/PrintBilboBarrel.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.collecttolkien.com/PrintsTolkien01.HTML&h=640&w=566&sz=106&tbnid=RveQxqFv5yyTUM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=119&hl=de&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBilbo%2Braft%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%2 6lr%3D%26sa%3DG)

Enjoy!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The CbC Hobbit discussions, which are moving very slowly right now anyway, will have a break for the Easter weekend. The next chapter thread will be posted sometime next week. For those who have time, there's still lots to discuss on the existing threads!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Chapter 14 thread is open for discussion, just in case it has escaped your notice! ;) This is a pivotal chapter and introduces an important new character, so please do join in. I look forward to your posts.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This week's discussion concludes The Hobbit. Thanks to those of you who participated! The threads remain open for all who want to join in later.

Is there still enough interest in these discussions for the Silmarillion? If so, Aiwendil is willing to contribute his expertise and write the introductory posts. I look forward to reading them and to posting occasionally.

[Formendacil]

This week's discussion concludes The Hobbit. Thanks to those of you who participated! The threads remain open for all who want to join in later.

Is there still enough interest in these discussions for the Silmarillion? If so, Aiwendil is willing to contribute his expertise and write the introductory posts. I look forward to reading them and to posting occasionally.

Well, as someone who said that he'd definitely participate in a Hobbit discussion... I'm probably not the best person to be saying he'd participate in a Silmarillion discussion... but I will anyway.

Maybe the greater (slightly) obscurity of the work will work in its favour. :rolleyes:

[Cloudberry]

I was unable to access my account here for several months, and couldn't post for The Hobbit readings. I'm planning on being here for the Silmarillion readings.

Thanks to Estelyn and all you other folk who keep these discussions going. It is a labor of love, but a labor, nonetheless!

Cloudberry

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Count me in for any venture into the Silmarillion. :)

[symestreem]

I would also be interested in doing the Sil, though I suspect my head would regret it...

[Alchisiel]

I would be thoroughly interested in a chapter by chapter read of the Silm. It is becoming one of my favourite books by Tolkien. Who will lead us through it?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Aiwendil is the "designated driver mod" for the Sil discussions. I don't know just when he intends to begin them.

[Aiwendil]

I'm sorry that I haven't been that communicative about this. Summer has proven quite busy. I've been thinking that perhaps it would be best to start in early September (if there's still enough interest); I imagine this might be better for some people as there won't be conflicts with vacations and such.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

If I don't show up in September, please know that I will in October. September is looking like a very busy month.

[Alchisiel]

Sounds good to me. I am in the process of reading LotR at the moment and I should be done by then. See you in September!!

[Aiwendil]

Provided there is still interest, I'm about ready to start the Silmarillion chapter by chapter discussion. I aim to have the Ainulindale intro up and the discussion started this weekend (i.e. September 9 - 10).

The Silmarillion discussion presents some interesting challenges not encountered in the previous discussions. As I see it there are two issues:

1. Each chapter of the Silmarillion covers significantly more plot than a chapter of LotR or The Hobbit.

2. The Silmarillion's unique history makes it less practicable to consider only the text as finally published.

I'm open to suggestions on how to deal with these issues. My thoughts for the moment are:

1A. We may want to allow a longer time (i.e. longer than one week) for each discussion before beginning the following chapter.

1B. Another possibility is to further sub-divide the chapters (particularly the later ones).

2. I wish to encourage, in addition to direct discussion of the chapter as found in the published Silmarillion, discussion of the history of each tale (i.e. of related material in UT and HoMe). But I certainly don't want to frighten off readers unfamiliar with the additional material. I plan to include a list of references in UT and HoMe for each chapter, and also to give a short introductory note on the textual evolution of each chapter. Does this sound like a good idea or might it be too intimidating?

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

[Alchisiel]

I think if UT and HoME were included I think it would be more daunting of a task not only to the readers but to you also. But I can also see your point of including those books. I also think that it would be quite intimidating to readers not as knowledgeable as some of the more experienced readers here. I think the easiest solution that you gave would be to allow a longer time between chapters.

I am still very, very interested in the cbc of The Silm.

[Thinlómien]

I second longer time; two weeks (or even three) could be okay.

I wouldn't include the Ut or the HoME in the official CbC - nothing prevents individual members still referring to them.

[Lalwendë]

Aiwendil - I'm looking forwards to this, especially as you're knowledgeable on the Sil! I've been wanting to examine it in more depth for a while and improve my own understanding.

Now I would also second the call for a longer period than a week to consider chapters, and would also welcome chapter breakdowns - say half a chapter a fortnight in some cases, as it is such a dense text with so many refereences to consider - and work is also very intense for me too right now!

Not scared of using HoME as there's some fascianting stuff about how the ethos of the Sil changed with the years and its interesting to get to the original sources and find what remained!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

While I don't have a complete set of HoME, I also would opt for references at least to the texts in UT and HoME, so that that we know where to find additional material and earlier versions etc. I also agree that a slower pace would be a good thing here, as the Silm sometimes strikes me as an outline for a very large series! :D

[Lalwendë]

While I don't have a complete set of HoME, I also would opt for references at least to the texts in UT and HoME, so that that we know where to find additional material and earlier versions etc. I also agree that a slower pace would be a good thing here, as the Silm sometimes strikes me as an outline for a very large series! :D

The Silmnopsis?

Oh never mind.... ;)

[Bêthberry]

Provided there is still interest, I'm about ready to start the Silmarillion chapter by chapter discussion. I aim to have the Ainulindale intro up and the discussion started this weekend (i.e. September 9 - 10).

2. I wish to encourage, in addition to direct discussion of the chapter as found in the published Silmarillion, discussion of the history of each tale (i.e. of related material in UT and HoMe). But I certainly don't want to frighten off readers unfamiliar with the additional material. I plan to include a list of references in UT and HoMe for each chapter, and also to give a short introductory note on the textual evolution of each chapter. Does this sound like a good idea or might it be too intimidating?

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

Good to hear you will be doing this, Aiwendil.

I'm looking forward to following this discussion, if not joining in. I think a longer period of time might be suitable, but a period longer than two weeks for each section under discussion might be at risk of losing people, as once they've posted their main ideas, they might lose the habit of keeping up, so to speak. Brisk moving threads seem to keep people interested--as long as they aren't too fast! Sub-division a good idea.

I don't think including reference from UT and HoMe would be intimidating. Boring maybe, but not intimidating. :p ;)

[Mister Underhill]

I think Bb's right -- more frequent threads and smaller chunks might be the way to go, though I haven't looked at the text to see if there's an easy way of accomplishing that. The challenge here will be to get everyone on the same page, literally.

Also, from a "marketing" standpoint, here's another two cents: I think shooting for the weekend after the coming weekend at the earliest would be best. It would give time to post an Announcement and build some awareness before the project rolls. Also, a lot of people start school up again this week; might be better to let them settle in first (not to mention that it will give us time to iron out the technical details).

I like the idea of HoME and UT references in the intro posts.

[Raynor]

Also, from a "marketing" standpoint, here's another two cents: I think shooting for the weekend after the coming weekend at the earliest would be best. It would give time to post an Announcement and build some awareness before the project rolls. Also, a lot of people start school up again this week; might be better to let them settle in first (not to mention that it will give us time to iron out the technical details). Since I will be out of town this weekend, I would personally like this particular chapter discussion, which happens to be my all time favorite too, to start another time.

[Lalwendë]

And Oxonmoot is on 15th - 17th, too, so please don't start then. ;)

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

If suggestions from a mostly-lurker may be entertained:

1A. We may want to allow a longer time (i.e. longer than one week) for each discussion before beginning the following chapter.
I think that a longer time is an excellent idea, but why tie down to a fixed period for each discussion. As the eariler chapter discussions show, some chapters elicit much discussion, give and take, and point and rebuttal. Others generate 2 or 3 posts and then nothing for five days (although it would surprise me if Silm has that affect).

How about this: each chapter is open-ended, with the moderator announcing two or three days in advance that, since discussion seems to be drawing to a close, the new chapter will be posted on...


1B. Another possibility is to further sub-divide the chapters (particularly the later ones).
If you can find logical starting and stopping places, then by all means.


2. I wish to encourage, in addition to direct discussion of the chapter as found in the published Silmarillion, discussion of the history of each tale (i.e. of related material in UT and HoMe). But I certainly don't want to frighten off readers unfamiliar with the additional material. I plan to include a list of references in UT and HoMe for each chapter, and also to give a short introductory note on the textual evolution of each chapter. Does this sound like a good idea or might it be too intimidating?
I think that this sort of material in the introduction and inserted by the more knowledgeable and well-read members would be most welcomed, even by the casual reader (will there be any casual readers of these threads?) So far, the source material that has been referenced has been included in a way that is straighforward, non-confusing, and adds to the experience. Kudos to those, especially in the LotR discussions for that!

I have only read UT, so don't know what Silm material is included in the other volumes of HoME, but I know that the stuff from UT was either totally fascinating (the complete Fall of Gondolin, or the creation of the sun and moon), or failed completely to hold my interest (the evolution of the story of Earendil, for instance). I know that everyone's experience is different, and therefore encourage the inclusion of source material and "historical" refrences as part of the discussion.

Thanks for listening.

[Aiwendil]

Mister Underhill wrote:
I think shooting for the weekend after the coming weekend at the earliest would be best. It would give time to post an Announcement and build some awareness before the project rolls. Also, a lot of people start school up again this week; might be better to let them settle in first (not to mention that it will give us time to iron out the technical details).


Quite sensible. Let's make it the weekend of the 16th - 17th then.

I'm inclined to try a two week discussion period. Longer than this would certainly not be advisable. But I see no reason that the length must be set in stone at the outset. If two weeks proves too long, it can be reduced.

[Mister Underhill]

Sounds good. I'll throw an announcement up today. Aiwendil, I think I've set you up to be able to start threads in CbC -- check on that if you would. We'll also have to set the naming conventions for the threads.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

What about starting on the 15th, and catching the anniversary of the Silmarillion's publishing date?

[Aiwendil]

The first Silmarillion discussion will be opened shortly. I hope this is not a problem for those attending Oxonmoot; in any case, the next discussion is not set to start until two weeks from today, which should give everyone who's interested time to participate in the Ainulindale.

I will be including some comments on the textual history of each chapter, as well as some references to Unfinished Tales (UT) and The History of Middle-earth (HoMe) for those who are interested in reading more. Please note: these additional readings are not required for participation! I hope that the discussions will appeal to first time readers of the Silmarillion just as much as to venerable HoMe scholars.

[Aiwendil]

I thought that with the Silmarillion discussion now well underway, it might be good to check in with people for any feedback or suggestions. What do you think of the two week time period? It seemed about right to me for the Ainulindale and Valaquenta discussions, but QS chapters 1 and 2 have so far been much quieter (though ch. 2 is, after all, pretty slight). What do others think?

Is there anything else in the way of feedback or suggestions? Anything I could be doing to improve the discussions? (Not that I'm not happy with them so far).

[Aiwendil]

Due to the general business of the end of the semester, the opening of the next discussion will be delayed until late next week. Judging by the activity level of the last few discussions, this will not be of much import to anyone, but I just thought I should let you know.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Aiwendil, just wanted to let you know that though I have not been able to post on the threads, I am still following along albeit at a delayed rate, and hope to catch up before the end. My apologies for the silence.

[Břicho]

Aiwendil, just wanted to let you know that though I have not been able to post on the threads, I am still following along albeit at a delayed rate, and hope to catch up before the end. My apologies for the silence.Hmm, has there been a change for the Silmarillian discussion? :)

[Aiwendil]

Oh dear. I could have sworn that I posted a note here that the next chapter discussion would be postponed until after my winter break, but it seems that I failed to do so.

I'm terribly sorry about this, especially so if my forgetfulness has driven anyone away from the already very slow discussion.

I will open the next discussion sometime this week, after which it will proceed as before, with new discussions opened on Fridays.

Again, I'm very sorry if there's been any confusion.

[Břicho]

OK, thanks! :)

[Aiwendil]

There will be a slight delay in the opening of the next discussion, due to a bit of a virus which has taken me by surprise. The thread should be up sometime later today or tomorrow.

[Aiwendil]

Another slight delay - chapter 10 will be up sometime today or tomorrow.

[Aiwendil]

I hope it is. The next discussion will be up today.

[Aiwendil]

I must apologize for the the fact that the chapter 14 discussion is not open yet; I'm away and with only intermittent access both to the books and the internet. Judging by the level of participation lately, this will not be an inconvenience to anyone. I will start the next discussion as soon as possible; in the interim, if anyone feels an urge to discuss the Silmarillion, the chapter 13 thread is of course (gapingly) open.

Edit: Hmm, four consecutive posts in this thread of rather poor excuses on my part for being late. I really am sorry for my failure in this regard, especially if this is part of the reason for the discussions' general silence.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Don't blame yourself for the slow discussion, Aiwendil - I found out in the LotR and Hobbit discussions that the interest is always greatest at the beginning, then slows down radically. Thanks for your faithfulness in keeping going!

[Aiwendil]

If you're wondering, no, I haven't forgotten about the Silmarillion discussion. Given the slow pace of the discussions, I've been a bit more relaxed about the schedule - but the next chapter will be up soon.

[Aiwendil]

Ditto my above post.

If anyone is unhappy with these threads continuing to appear at a slow rate, some stern words would probably rouse me to greater diligence. Given the lack of interest, I've assumed no one is irked by the irregularity - if I'm wrong, please let me know!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I'm still hanging in there, just not posting on the threads. Unfortunately, I have read ahead a bit while waiting, so that it is increasingly difficult to comment on most the current threads available. Those topics have a nasty way of getting filed away in the lowest drawer of my mental filing cabinet, and using some strange and cryptic system that is beyond me...well maybe just a bit anyway!

[Aiwendil]

Thanks for the feedback, Hilde. I'll be more conscientious about getting the chapters up in the future.

[Aiwendil]

Correction: I'll (apparently) continue to be as negligent as usual. I'm really sorry.

I will put up the next chapter soon, for what that may be worth.

[Bêthberry]

Will there be any more installments in the chapter by chapter reading of The Silm? I know others have gone back to rereading LotR, but I certainly am still interested in The Silm, even if my time does not allow me to post much. (although I do think I am one of the more frequent posters in this discussion. :p )

[Nazgûl-king]

Would anyone be interested in doing a chapter-by-chapter discussion for Children of Húrin?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Would anyone be interested in doing a chapter-by-chapter discussion for Children of Húrin?

That's a good and interesting idea; I thought about something similar recently, but then I thought if it's already time for this. But if more people were interested, I'd say why not? (But really the interest is important. Also, there is - or should be - still the LotR CbC running, although... :rolleyes: )

[Mithalwen]

Yes, I'd be interested but may be more when we have got through the radio series. I do want to read it thoroughly in the next couple of weeks in preparation for the TS Seminar.

[Lalaith]

So has the Silm discussion officially died a death?
I know I only posted occasionally but I was enjoying it. :(

[Aiwendil]

I'm afraid I owe a tremendous apology to everyone. I have no excuse whatsoever for my negligence - first being consistently late in posting each chapter and then unceremoniously forgetting about the whole project when interest waned. Perhaps it's not a big deal in the long run, but I really do feel bad about having made a commitment like this and then completely failing to follow through on it.

I would be happy to continue with the remaining chapters. Perhaps I'll write all the remaining introductions first and then, once I have them all in hand, post one a week. Does this sound reasonable to those concerned?

I would also love to take part in a Children of Hurin discussion (assuming it's run by someone more conscientious than me) if that were to take place.

Again, apologies to all for the Silmarillion discussions (or lack thereof).

[Lalaith]

That sounds more than reasonable, Aiwendil.

[Mugwump]

I'm totally new to this forum, so I've missed all the previous readthroughs, but you've inspired me to read the books yet again (for the fourth time, I believe). If it's all right with everyone, I'll search the relevant (chapter) thread and leave comments even though the last comment may have been years ago.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Please do contribute, Mugwump - that's the reason we keep these threads open! And you never know, you might inspire other members to join you in re-reading...

Welcome to the Downs, and have a good time here!

[Galadriel55]

I would also love to take part in a Children of Hurin discussion (assuming it's run by someone more conscientious than me) if that were to take place.

I'd love to participate in a COH discussion! I'd always be able to find some spare time to stick my two bits in on most chapters! ;):D

[Formendacil]

It's been a few years since the last Chapter-by-Chapter (The Hobbit, in anticipation of the first movie) and I'm wondering if the time has come for another one. Anyone here active on the 'Downs Facebook group is aware that I floated the idea there of a CbC of The book of Lost Tales. A couple things came out of that.

One, as you might expect, interest was relatively low. If The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are the primary works on Middle-earth, then the HoME texts are beyond secondary works into the tertiary realm and even on a forum of fans as literary as the 'Downs, it is difficult to say if the amount of interest meets the critical mass deemed necessary, particularly as the CbCs have typically been seen in the past as a group effort.

Two, though interest was low, it was not absent, so having not been actively discouraged by the members of staff who saw me post there, I am bringing the question here: would the forum be interested in a CbC of The Book of Lost Tales? I am not a mod or admin, and if that disqualifies me from leading such a discussion then I shall bow out gracefully, but if that does not then I volunteer my services to initiate those discussions.

Apart from the question of leadership, I would like to make a few matter-of-principle points regarding idea and the probability of low participation.

Firstly, the 'Downs as a whole is a sleepy community as most of the generation that formed the last major boom of activity have all passed from high school, through college, and on to "adult" life* and this has happened coincident with a shift in Internet norms away from semi-anonymous, text-dominant venues like forums to picture-and-meme heavy "social media." I don't say this as a bad thing, nor do I want to present a doom-and-gloom prospect for the future, but I present it because I think that a diminished expectation of involvement in the light of these changed circumstances should not prevent such a CbC from going forward. If only two or three people participate--or, as the case may be towards the later chapters, one--it still *might* be worth doing, because:

Secondly, even if a website is sleepy, as long as there is something to draw a trickle of new and old members back, it not a closed-up shop. The Book of Lost Tales is certainly part of the long tail of Tolkien fandom, but forums are a part of the long tail of Internet activity. We may as well embrace it!

Thirdly, it has always been the intention of the CbC threads that they were not closed just because the next chapter had been posted. The original LotR threads are still worth a read and still worth adding to. Perhaps it will take five years to grow five posts on a Lost Tales chapter, but they would be there when the poster finally came--and, relatedly, BECAUSE the Lost Tales are more obscure, I think there is probably a lot more ground that has not been covered in the general discussion threads of the forum, and perhaps people have avoided posting about them even when they have wanted to because of the obscurity (one might say "non-canonicity" ;) ) of the HoME books.


And that is my argument. Perhaps I should have addressed this as a query to the admins in a PM, and certainly they are welcome to delete this if that is the case, but I admit to no longer being certain which admins would respond to a PM, and which were most involved/interested in the CbC forum. I have volunteered my services, because no one should suggest building something they are not willing to sweat for, but my pride is not offended if a CbC (of any book--I think the time has come for Lost Tales, but a case can be made for [i]The Children of Húrin/i] or the minor works) is decided to go forward with someone else as vanguard.



*Of course, the 'Downs has always had members older than this generation, and perhaps because they have always balanced the Internet community with an adult world, have been among our best and most enduring contributors. I do not mean to suggest the entire website was made of 17-year-olds in 2004.