LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 01 - A Long-Expected Party [Archive]

Aiwendil

06-21-2004, 12:04 PM

I think that the most remarkable thing about this chapter - and, indeed about Book I in general - is the pacing. At least today, the conventional wisdom is that you must "open with a bang" as it were, immediately grabbing the reader's attention. Almost any book on writing will tell you never to begin with exposition, or with action only tangentially related to the main plot. But Tolkien begins thus - and, I think, with great effect. The Ring isn't even mentioned until fairly late in the chapter, and none of the ensuing plot is set up here.

That isn't to say that the conventional wisdom is wrong. I've encountered a fair number of people that find the first chapter boring. I certainly don't; but I will admit that it is not as riveting as later parts of the book. I think that this may be a minor defect.

However - that certainly doesn't mean that I think Tolkien should have skipped the party and started with a big action chapter. Whether or not there is a deficiency in the pace of the first chapter in itself, I think that this slow initial pace has a payoff later on that certainly outweighs any such deficiency. Namely, by beginning with a nothing more incredible than a Hobbit party and nothing more dangerous than the threat of rain, Tolkien ensures that when danger and suspense do appear in earnest, they will have a real impact. All too often a book or movie deprives its most important moments of dramatic effect by overcharging everything else with drama.

Of course, Tolkien probably did not think in such terms. I have always gotten the feeling that he was a storyteller of such skill that for him techniques of pacing and suspense all came quite naturally, and did not require all that much conscious analysis. And of course the reason he did not begin with the more important matter of the book was simply that, when he started writing it, he did not know what that important matter was going to be.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

06-21-2004, 01:32 PM

I've just finished reading A Long-Expected Party for this thread, and as so often happens when re-reading Tolkien, the book has shown me a completely new facet. There is social commentary and comedy here that rivals Jane Austen, and Tolkien uses many of the same techniques to set the scene, and tell us about the dramatis personae of the earlier chapters and the world which they inhabit.

There is far too much subtle social humour here for me to lay it all before you in one post, but some examples immediately spring to mind that made me laugh, even on this the (I think) seventh reading. The description of Bilbo's speech stands out particularly in this respect: the matter and style of the character's address is picked up and carried on by the narrator to build a picture of simple rustic society reminiscent of some scenes from Flaubert or Hardy, with all the good-natured satire that seems to have been second-nature to Tolkien:
They were sipping their favourite drinks, and nibbling at their favourite dainties, and their fears were forgotten. They were prepared to listen to anything, and to cheer at every full stop.
Surely anyone who has been present at a wedding will recognise this sketch of a sympathetic audience, their knowledge of the host's oratorical eccentricities lulled by a sufficiency of food and drink. There is everything here to suggest that Bilbo will have to do something spectacular to avoid finishing his address with anything other than a standing ovation. Indeed, the first portion of his speech is received very well: "Bilbo was doing splendidly. This was the sort of stuff they liked: short and obvious."

Soon, though, Bilbo makes the great mistake of many public speakers: he makes his audience think about what he's saying. The description of his much-quoted 'half as much' speech and its reception is a classic: "This was unexpected and rather difficult. There was some scattered clapping, but most of them were trying to work it out and see if it came to a compliment."

Tolkien has more to offer us in the way of well-observed situation comedy than this, though. The conversation with which he begins the chapter reminds me so strongly of actually being in a pub that it almost deserves to be read in one. Hobbits are holding forth and pontificating wildly, gossiping and refusing to listen to the most knowledgeable because their views do not allow the romantic folklore that is already building up around Bag End and its inhabitants. Hamfast Gamgee, as a rustic patriarch, is revealed as a fount of earthy wisdom and biting if simple wit: "'And you can say what you like, about what you know no more of than you do of boating, Mr. Sandyman,' retorted the Gaffer , disliking the miller even more than usual. 'If that's being queer , then we could all do with a bit more queerness in these parts.'"

Quite rightly, Tolkien decides to begin his portrait of this rustic community in its foremost social centre: the inn. He shares with Sherlock Holmes the belief that one may learn anything of moment in a small community by visiting the public house, and indeed we learn there Frodo's ancestry, what he has been doing prior to his adoption, how he came to be adopted and how this is seen in the community. We learn more about Sam in the few lines of Hamfast's speech than we do in the rest of the chapter, and we begin to see the inevitable dark side of gossip in the Shire, and the intense parochialism of many of its inhabitants. All of this in a couple of pages of dialogue, and people still have the effrontery to say that Tolkien wasn't a character writer.

Later, Bilbo is revealed as a generous, insightful and playfully witty gift-giver. The descriptions of various presents are hilarious, particularly in my opinion "For the collection of HUGO BRACEGIRDLE, from a contributor." I'm sure that all of us have known at some time a person who was somewhat unreliable at returning books.

However, the gentle comedy masks a tension that Tolkien begins to build right at the beginning of the chapter. When Tolkien says "At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved; but unchanged would have been nearer the mark" warning bells immediately begin to ring. This phrase comes like Evangelist's scroll, saying "Flee from wrath to come," and it is followed by the words of anonymous gossips: "It will have to be paid for... It isn't natural, and trouble will come of it!" Bilbo's longevity is indeed not natural, and indeed it does have to be paid for, although typically of Tolkien's writing, the speakers have no conception of the weight of the payment.

Having brought the comedy to its climax in Bilbo's disappearance, and before gently satirising hobbits again at the gift-giving, Tolkien adds a little more tension to the narrative with Bilbo's scene with Gandalf. This, too, is a revelation: like Bilbo, we have never been led to believe that there is anything more to Gandalf than the wise old wizard from The Hobbit; but here we see Gandalf the Grey, member of the White Council and advisor to the great and the good, for the first time. Gandalf does not, however, take centre stage. That honour is reserved for Bilbo's birthday present: the Ring itself, already revealing at this early stage its sinister identity: "'It is mine, I tell you. My own. My precious. Yes, my precious." This is probably the most sinister moment in the entire chapter, with Bilbo assuming the staccato verbal pattern of Gollum while applying his epithet to the Ring. This is the first hint that Gollum might not always have been as we know him, and that something else, something now owned by Bilbo, was making him so. Gandalf's reaction is also something to be feared. Gandalf is worried, and for those who have read The Hobbit, a worried Gandalf is something to make the wise sit up and take notice. Only later in the story do we realise exactly how terrifying it is, either that Gandalf is concerned or that he threatens to uncloak himself.

So we move from the light social banter of the Ivy Bush to Bilbo's thoughtful pose as he finishes the first verse of his walking song, to Gandalf's veiled warnings about the Ring. On the surface, the hobbits are continuing their comical, petty, sheltered lives, but one can almost hear the ominous murmur of John Keats in the background:
Hear ye not the hum
Of mighty workings in the human mart?
Listen awhile, ye nations, and be dumb.

[EDIT]
Another thought occurs to me: Tolkien is playing a game with his readers throughout this entire chapter. The title and the tone suggest The Hobbit and yet beneath that there is a suggestion of what is to come. The title of the chapter suggests that there will be no surprises, but we are in for one greater than that of the Unexpected Party. Tolkien drops hints about his plans, such as someone closely involved with the party arrangements might have picked up, but essentially Bilbo's disappearance is unprecedented. He plays with anticipation and expectation to leave the reader, who on the surface has just finished reading a comic tale of country folk, with a sense of foreboding. The tension that is built up here will be realised in the next chapter, and will continue a theme of gradually building tension relieved by increasingly dramatic scenes that certain film directors would give their eye teeth to be able to achieve. Although it may appear that Tolkien is beginning in a completely inappropriate tone, he is simply building up to the main events of his narrative at his own pace and not allowing himself to be rushed by the reader's expectations. The wise reader will thank him for this later as more of the wide world beyond the Shire is revealed.

This chapter is, of course, accompanied by a map depicting a part of the Shire, and I would like to point out how Tolkien's knowledge of English onomastics plays a part here. All of the names you will see on that map either are or could be real English place names. Newbury in Buckland bears the same name as a Berkshire market town, just as there really are places called Stock and Bucklebury. Michel Delving on the White Downs bears a striking resemblance to Micheldever near Winchester, which is also situated on some chalk downs, as are much of Berkshire and Oxfordshire. Tolkien holidayed more than once in Lyme Regis and Sidmouth, and there is an echo of the Devonshire town of Honiton in the centre of the narrative. All in all, for the English reader, this is supposed to be familiar territory, and this too serves to lull that reader into a sense of security, offering little in the way of a hint at the strange and terrifying vistas of legend into which Tolkien is about to plunge them.

*Varda*

06-21-2004, 02:49 PM

I think one thing that this chapter had in common with the Prologue, as others have said, the emphasis is again on the hobbits.

The tone at the beginning is very lighthearted, the hobbits gossiping in the Ivy Bush, but as Squatter says, there is a tension and sense of foreboding that seems to be underlying in this chapter, which escapes the reader's notice the first time, but once you've read the whole book, and go back for a re-read, you notice Tolkien's little hints.

'His real business was far more difficult and dangerous, but the Shire-folk knew nothing about it'

To me, this is just a hint of the difficult and dangerous situations that the hobbits are soon to find themselves in, and that they are so ignorant of the outside world just makes it appear all the more dangerous.

The lighthearted tone also doesn't last all the way through this chapter, when Tolkien again drops hints of darker things to come during Gandalf and Bilbo's conversation, as Bilbo finds it so difficult to give up the ring. For those who have read the Hobbit, too, they will see the parallels between Bilbo and Gollum as Bilbo says 'My precious'.

'He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room'

We see Gandalf as more than just a wizard who makes fireworks, as the hobbits see him, but rather as someone more powerful than the Hobbit portrayed him.

To me, the chapter seemed to get more lighthearted after Bilbo left, with some funny moments at Bilbo giving the presents away, as well as our introduction to Otho and Lobelia in person.

I think in the final lines of the chapter, the tone has changed again - Tolkien is again hinting at trouble to come. The hilarity and easygoing hobbit life, shown throughout the chapter, can't hide the shadow that is growing even in the Shire.

'He gave a final wave of his hand, and walked off at a surprising pace; but Frodo thought the old wizard looked unusually bent, almost as if he was carrying a great weight. The evening was closing in, and his cloaked figure quickly vanished into the twilight. Frodo did not see him again for a long time.'

Boromir88

06-21-2004, 03:14 PM

Yes, I totally agree, the hobbits are really dependant only on themselves, anything "un-hobbitlike" they disregard, pretend its not real, and just go on living. They don't show much care for anything that they don't know about, and they want to hear things they already know about, anything else they just basically ignore. Which as Varda pointed out some hints of foreshadowing of the troubles to come in the shire, maybe if the hobbits paid attention and showed some care for the "strange" events that went on during this chapter they could have prevented the scouring of the shire. Grant it The Shire was saved in the end, by what the hobbits would refer to Frodo, Sam..etc as "strange," but Saruman corrupting The Shire could have been prevented if the hobbits had paid more attention to the events at Bilbo's party. Instead they just took their presents and cracked jokes about how "weird" Bilbo was, and about how he didn't act hobbitlike.

Fordim Hedgethistle

06-21-2004, 06:36 PM

*Varda* -- you quoted the following lines from the end of the chapter, and I'd just like to bring forward here to make a quick point:

but Frodo thought the old wizard looked unusually bent, almost as if he was carrying a great weight. The evening was closing in, and his cloaked figure quickly vanished into the twilight.

Can anyone say "foreshadowing"? Is it just me or is Gandalf here being presented as a precursor to Frodo who will, in the future, be "bent, almost as if he was carrying a great weight" as he walks into Mordor. Frodo will also be a "cloaked figure" who "vanish[es] into the twilight." What I like about this foreshadowing moment is that it presents to Frodo (through whose eyes we 'see' Gandalf) the good and the bad of his journey to come. He will be "bent" from having to bear the "great weight" of the Ring, but the cloak he will be wearing is the cloak of Lorien. The vanishing act he will pull "into the twilight" will be both his walking-through-darkness as he trudges through Mordor toward Mount Doom, and his final 'vanishing act' as he disappears into the "twilight" of the West.

Oh, and there are more connections here. The chapter that has described how Bilbo has "vanished" from the Shire (a very visible vanishing in terms of his prank at the party, if you know what I mean) now ends with another "vanishing" -- which makes sense since this chapter is all about the Ring, which when one puts on makes one "vanish into twilight" in the sense that one becomes a wraith under the "shadow" of the Dark Lord.

*whew* That Tolkien sure can put a lot of syntactic energy into the most seemingly simple lines.

Once again, I find it interesting that this moment alludes to both the good and the bad that awaits Frodo in his future: to both the dangers he must pass through (the burden of the Ring), the aid he will recieve (the cloak of Galadriel), and the two possible ends that await him: vanishing into the twilight of the Ring, or disappearing into the evening of the setting sun.

Lathriel

06-21-2004, 10:25 PM

I always liked the fact that this chapter was light hearted because the rest of the book is very serious. The happy beginning gives the reader courage to get through the darkest parts of the book. Plus I think that lots of the information is essential. Since the main characters are hobbits we should understand their culture and what is important to them.

To me the fact that Bilbo wants to see the elves again gives me feeling that although Bilbo had the ring for a long time and although the ring came very close to overtaking him it never did and it tells me that bilbo is very strong to withstand such power. Sure he had help but he still managed to do what Gollum could not.

(But then again Gollum is very different, however this chapter does not concern Gollum, doesn't he come in at Chapter three?)

The song, "The road goes ever on and on..." always made me feel happy and the song seems to say that there are so many things to do in the world that you just have to follow a road and you will see many new things that will sweep you up into a new experience.

Arkenstone

06-21-2004, 11:47 PM

Early on in the 1st Chapter we can see a reflection of Tolkien’s own life with Frodo. Frodo becomes an orphan and is taken in by the rich Bilbo. Tolkien himself was orphaned and taken care of by Father Morgan, although the riches part didn’t exist for Tolkien.

The older I get, the more hilarious the rest of the chapter becomes. Family politics at its best. And what’s more, it is probably going on within your own families as we speak. It does in mine.

The Sackville-Bagginses think that Bilbo is going to leave them Bag End, then Frodo becomes the Heir. Otho and Lobeila go to the party but they can’t stand Bilbo. This one can’t figure out why that one would marry into that family and so it goes on. We have Bilbo as the ’black sheep’ in the family because he doesn’t behave in a way that seems Hobbit like. Tell me that it doesn’t all sound familiar in your own family.

A little later in the chapter the family fun continues with Frodo handing out the gifts that Bilbo has left for them. This part always reminds me of when a will is being read, people always seem a little disappointed with what they get. Then Otho and Lobeila what to see the will to check all is in order, because they wanted the money LOL.

We’re also introduced to the Ring again. Firstly, through Bilbo using it and his reluctance to leave it behind. Then about the story Bilbo used to tell everyone about how he obtained the Ring, which is interesting - why do you suppose he lied about it ? Also, it would seem at this point that Gandalf is beginning to believe that this is perhaps the One Ring.

Saraphim

06-22-2004, 01:27 AM

Yes, Arkenstone, I completly agree with your post! I see a bit of Bilbo in myself. At family gatherings, I always have relatives avoid topics that could lead me to begin talking in any way contrary to thier conservative beliefs.

Bilbo was once a good, social type hobbit, doing all the right things and conversing in all the right groups, until, that wandering wizard sent him on a ridiculous quest. And then, he went and adopted Frodo, and began turning the poor lad into a young version of himself.

The town was never the same.

Although, I do see a sense of intrigue in the mannerisms of those gossiping down at the Ivy Bush, when the locals press the Gaffer for information. The interogators seem dissapointed when they hear of how little treasure Bilbo was said to have accumulated. And then, of course, the younger hobbits insist that there must be hidden tunnels full of gold and jewels, and must be extricated from the cellar.

They seem (beyond a liking for wealth, which is common enough) to be thuroughly enjoying Bilbo's eccentiricity, and tend to be dissapointed when thier expecations are not lived up to.

Fingolfin II

06-22-2004, 01:58 AM

I also agree with your post, Arkenstone. What delighted me about scenes in the first chapter and especially in the the scene at the Ivy Bush is that it gave us an insight into hobbit life and their petty likes and dislikes (e.g. Gaffer disliking Ted Sandyman 'even more than usual'). The Shire reminds me of a very sheltered place, with inhabitants who love to gossip and chat about the most eccentric people and relieve old tales and even 'bigger' things such as dwarves and dragons. Whether this has any correlation to the environment and community Tolkien lived in, I can't say as I haven't read any biographies on him (yet).

In post #14, Fordim Hedgethistle said-

Can anyone say "foreshadowing"? Is it just me or is Gandalf here being presented as a precursor to Frodo who will, in the future, be "bent, almost as if he was carrying a great weight" as he walks into Mordor. Frodo will also be a "cloaked figure" who "vanish[es] into the twilight."

I never thought of that before, and it's a very interesting thought. I believe that your right, as Tolkien has used foreshadowing in this book (i.e. Frodo's dream in Bombadil's house) and that most, or even all, 'little' interconnections in the book should be taken as intended ones, as his world is so diverse and intricate down to the smalles detail.

davem

06-22-2004, 02:24 AM

Squatter:
I would like to point out how Tolkien's knowledge of English onomastics plays a part here. All of the names you will see on that map either are or could be real English place names. Newbury in Buckland bears the same name as a Berkshire market town, just as there really are places called Stock and Bucklebury. Michel Delving on the White Downs bears a striking resemblance to Micheldever near Winchester, which is also situated on some chalk downs, as are much of Berkshire and Oxfordshire. Tolkien holidayed more than once in Lyme Regis and Sidmouth, and there is an echo of the Devonshire town of Honiton in the centre of the narrative. All in all, for the English reader, this is supposed to be familiar territory

This has always struck me - the 'Englishness' of the world of the Shire - to the extent that I was deeply surprised that readers from other countries could relate to the story at all. I can't help asking the (probably unanswerable)question, whether English readers understand/experience the Shire & its inhabitants differently from readers in other countries (as, I'd assume, a Russian would understand/experience, say, War & Peace differently to a non Russian). Or, if you're not English, are there parts of your country that feel like the Shire - Hope this is not too far off topic, but the effect of the opening chapter on myself (& like Squatter I'd include the map of the Shire in with the first chapter) is to place me in a world which I recognise - landscapes, placenames, personal names, etc - so that the sense of 'menace' is more intense & disturbing because its happening 'at home', as it were. If you come from a country/culture which is very diferent from the one described, do you identify with the Shire, or does it feel more 'alien' to you. Or to put it another way, does the Shire feel like the familiar & 'everday' world to everyone, or does it have the same kind of 'otherness' about it as Lorien or Gondor - does anyone start the book with the feeling that they're [I]already[/] in another world?

Saraphim

06-22-2004, 03:05 AM

In rsponse to Davem, I do indeed feel as though I am in another world when I step into the Shire, or many other settings in Middle-Earth. My home is more akin to the wastland of Mordor, only populated by throny shrubs.

I have been to other, different climates, of course. But I have yet to visit one as beautiful as I the one I would love to see in the U.K.

I think this is yet another example of Tolkien's genius. Before reading this book, my desire to travel there was irrelevant. But afterwards, I find myself wishing for forests, moors, downs, woodland paths, hills, streams, and pretty much everything one cannot find near my home.

I connected with the Shire because it was so peaceful, so close to nature. Las Vegas, even in the suburbs, is not peaceful, by any means. But there is nature, if one looks hard enough. The hobbits love thier land, despite minor annoyances, and I love mine, even when the thermometer reaches high into triple digits.

So, despite blatant differences, the Shire and the Las Vegas desert have something in common. People belonged there, and I know that I belong here. (no matter how much I want to move to England)

davem

06-22-2004, 03:37 AM

Saraphim

Don't idealise this country too much! Its still very beautiful in parts, but its not the Shire! There are still places that are close to it, though. Every year I travel down to Oxford for the Oxonmoot weekend with the Tolkien Society (culminating in a visit to Tolkien's grave on the Sunday morning). The countryside around Oxford still retains what I feel to be an echo of the Shire. And the 'Bird & Baby' (The Eagle & Child pub) where the Inklings used to meet, is a typical English pub - perhaps lending some of its atmosphere to the Ivy Bush - apart from the photos of the Inklings & a framed letter from them on the wall.

Estelyn Telcontar

06-22-2004, 07:07 AM

Some good points have come up in the discussion! Arkenstone, the connection between Frodo being orphaned at an early age, like Tolkien himself, is interesting! I remember a highly entertaining discussion on the fact that heroes are often orphans, and whether it is an ‘advantage’ for them, on the thread Tolkien the Matricide (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1924&highlight=Matricide) – you might enjoy reading it!

davem, the ‘homey’ feel of the Shire is evident to me, though I grew up in Midwest USA. I’m sure the familiar names and idiosyncrasies would feel even closer to English readers, but I wonder if it doesn’t strike a chord with most humans. Perhaps it’s an archetype of ‘Home’ for us all?

Fordim, I too see much foreshadowing in this chapter and can’t help but wonder how much of it was there from the beginning and how much had to be added after the story developed the way it did. One thing that impresses me in this chapter is the introduction to many names in the Shire, whether in the Inn or at the birthday party. It seems to me that Tolkien is trying to make us care about the people there, so that the Scouring of the Shire at the end of the story is important to us. Considering that he had planned that ending early in the writing process, it could be a conscious choice.

Yes, Saraphim, reading a book does make one want to see the places in it, doesn't it?! I'm hoping to make a trip to Oxford soon to see where Tolkien lived and worked. (Off-topic for the book, but relevant to that point, I must confess that I'd love to see New Zealand after seeing the movie!)

Fordim Hedgethistle

06-22-2004, 08:45 AM

davem -- You go to Oxonmoot every year? I am positively green with envy.

You pose an excellent question about the different responses of English readers and readers from other countries -- it's one I've thought a lot about, but only being from one country (although I have lived all over the world in my life) I don't really feel qualified to answer it. Still, I rather suspect that American and (to a lesser extent) Canadian (such as myself) readers would not respond quite so instantly and familiarly to the subtle differences of class in the Shire. There is a class system on this side of the pond, but one that is defined in very different ways than is the one of the Shire/England (but I shall leave this now as I know there are threads aplenty about this already).

As for my impression, I always find the Shire to be very 'homey' -- not because I come from someplace like the Shire, but because it's a place where all the values (and trials) of home are the governing principles of day to day life. I daresay that there are many places and cultures in the world for whom the Shire would be as alien as Lorien (perhaps even more alien) but I rather suspect that most people would respond to the 'homey-virtue' of the world.

Saraphim

People belonged there, and I know that I belong here. (no matter how much I want to move to England)

You do realise that you're a hobbit, don't you? ;) This understanding is precisely the one that Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin come to realise as their journeys go forward. They all long to go somewhere else, to see what it's like and to find out if it matches their imaginings. But in the end, while they all come to appreciate that while the people who live in those places "belong" there, they do not. Even though Pippin becomes a Tower Guard, and Merry a Rider, and Frodo and Sam the Friends of all the Free Peoples, in the end, they "belong" in the Shire just as you belong in the desert. Perhaps that is the most lasting effect of this chapter's emphasis on the Shire -- it demonstrates not just that the four hobbits who go off on adventures belong in the Shire, but to the Shire. The real focus and protagonist of this chapter is the Shire and the hobbits who live there, and not really an individual hobbit (although Bilbo is allowed to take centre stage for a bit, but only before disappearing from the Shire). I guess this makes sense given that the anatagonist of the chapter is not Sauron but the Ring itself. Another comparison -- Shire vs Ring: hmmm. . .that's kind of how the whole novel works, isn't it?

davem

06-22-2004, 09:26 AM

Estelyn & Fordim

davem, the ‘homey’ feel of the Shire is evident to me, though I grew up in Midwest USA. I’m sure the familiar names and idiosyncrasies would feel even closer to English readers, but I wonder if it doesn’t strike a chord with most humans. Perhaps it’s an archetype of ‘Home’ for us all?

I suspect it was 'home' for Tolkien, & I suppose his memories of his childhood at Sarehole were at the basis of it. The interesting thing for me is, the 'Shire' of the Hobbit is also a reflection of the world of his childhood in a way - a time when there was 'less noise & more green', but that world was never under threat in the story. Bilbo came back to a Shire as beautiful, safe & permanent as the one he left. But in LotR we begin with the Shire under threat. This time there will be no going away for an adventure, with a safe, secure home waiting in the 'kindly West' for the adventurers to wish themselves back in. I can't help wondering if the attitude reflected in The Hobbit comes out of Tolkien's belief when he went off to fight in WW1, that England was waiting, & would always be as he remembered it - if he survived his own adventure, whereas LotR reflects his more mature thinking, as he lived through WW2 - 'Home' (Heimat) will always be under threat now, it will always need someone to make the sacrifice, give things up so that others may keep them.

What I sense, for all that he presents the Hobbits as almost incurably parochial (& light-fingered - no wonder Gandalf chose a Hobbit when he needed a professional burglar! Some of them would take anything that wasn't nailed down!), I think they symbolise what he loved - 'the land of lost content', the England he grew up in & fought (& would have died) for. Perhaps its the depth of this love that he manages to communicate to us in the Prologue & first chapter, & its that love that comes through, & that his readers respond to, even if the actual place he describes is not similar to any place they've known. We certainly pick up on the sense of what we love being threatened, & want it to be saved. Its the ordinariness of the Shire & its inhabitants that makes me want Frodo to succeed - if Tolkien had set his stories in some typically outlandish fantasy world, would we care as deeply (or at all) whether it was saved or not?

Still, I rather suspect that American and (to a lesser extent) Canadian (such as myself) readers would not respond quite so instantly and familiarly to the subtle differences of class in the Shire.

I may be too typical of my culture, but I have to admit that when I first read LotR, the 'class thing' didn't register on me. I simply accepted the relationship - though I'm definitely in the same class as Sam, I didn't feel in any way that he was 'inferior' to the others. It was only when I started reading books on Tolkien (& latterly accessing posts on web sites) by Americans that I even started to think about the 'class thing'! Maybe I've been kept in my place too long!
(DENNIS:
'Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR:
Bloody peasant!
DENNIS:
Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?....

('I mean, if I went 'round saying I was King of Gondor just because some Half-Elf had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!'))

Bêthberry

06-22-2004, 11:28 AM

Here I arrive (fashionably ?) late and find you all have taken up so many of the interesting ideas in this chapter! I shall simply have to try harder to find something not considered and hope for the best.

I would agree very much with Squatter about the centrality of the humour in this chapter. Tolkien had a dry wit and was cleverly able to skewer where he felt bubbles of petty foibles could be burst without cruel damage. Imagine Bilbo's delight of being able to write those gift cards without being around to face the consequences!

It would appear that I belong to the smaller party here in that I do not deeply long to live in The Shire. This chapter has for me the kindly fond but wittily distanced memories of a quasi-comfortable past. Those memories to me suggest something incomplete, not wholly knowing. Although delightful, these memories of childhood, nonetheless represent something limited, maybe even naive, certainly not wise, as Gandalf is. This is the effect of the social humour for me: the wit distances the fondness.

The conversation at the Ivy Bush is spot on concerning the memories and preferences of many an elder I have known: the gossipy kind of small minded concerns and petty interests. Perhaps this is because, at the age of 10, I moved across a continent and left behind a polyglot, multi-cultural culture for one decided slow and back-looking. I have pained memories of sitting listening to elders speak as the Gaffer and Daddy Twofoot (two foot tall?) do, being politely trained to be seen and not heard. Contented, complacent ignorance frustrated me no end. Indeed, this chapter brings me back to my early adolescent frustration with what I, in my teenage wisdom, felt was the stifling complacency of a community which rarely looked beyond its own gardens. I still do not like people who try to know what is going on in everybody else's life and correct it; I would rather they look at their own. (myself included!)

davem raises an interesting point that The Shire reflects Tolkien's sense of 'home' from his childhood in Sarehood. Where I would differ is in thinking that World War II gave Tolkien this sense that such a world was always under threat.

It seems to me that for Europe World War I was more traumatic culturally. I think of all the war poets writing bitterly about the betrayal of the heroic ideal--Anthem for a Doomed Youth springs to mind most immediately. Owen and Sassoon in particular I guess. And when I recall how many of Tolkien's friends were killed at the Somme and elsewhere in the Great War, I would tend to think that the sense of nostalgic loss accrued not to WWII but to the WWI. There's that scene, too, in the move [i]Chariots of Fire[/b] where the giddy university lads are off to France at the train station and they see the crippled war veterans eeking out a meagrely living doing menial labour at the station. (of course, my memory of the movie could be faulty!)

One small point which intrigues me is that dwarves are around The Shire, for they help unload Gandalf's fireworks.

Well, quite enough rambling I should say. A summary of all this and a quick other point. It seems to me--and this was I think noted early on here by others--that the chapter begins not in the middle of bang 'em up action but just as that action begins to roll. Perhaps this, too, is the storyteller coming out in Tolkien. He chose here in the first chapter to begin to develop that inexorable sense of a world passing away. He did it by focussing attention upon a rural pastoral. But here we have Frodo wanting to give Bag End to Otho and Lobelia and run off with Bilbo. Oh, those very ominous words of Gandalf-- "Expect me when you see me" and "Look out for me, especially at unlikely times." Foreshadowing indeed.

The other point I shall quickly make refers to the reliability or authority of narrative. Frodo speaks with Gandalf about the ring:

'Do be careful of that ring, Frodo! In fact, it is partly about that that I have ocme to say a last word.'

'Well, what about it?'

'What do you know already?'

'Only what Bilbo told me. I have heard his story: how he found it, and how he used it: on his journey, I mean.'

'Which story, I wonder,' said Gandalf.

'On not what he told the dwarves and put in his book,' said Frodo. 'He told me the true story soon after I came to live here. ...'

...

'... Well, what did you think of it all?'

'If you mean, inventing all that about a 'present', well, I thought the true story much more likely, and I couldn't see the point of altering it at all...'

'So did I. But odd things happend to people that have such treasures.

A nod to the fiction of history, I suppose. But also a suggestion that readers must "think of it all" and keep their wits about them.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

06-22-2004, 01:11 PM

Well, there have certainly been some interesting points since yesterday. I'm with davem on the subject of class. I only started to notice Sam's deference on my third reading of the text, and Tolkien does such a good job of making him into an integral part of the Fellowship that we almost miss the master and servant (more accurately from Tolkien's point of view, officer and batman) relationship that he shares with Frodo. Still, there's more of that later in the book and I don't want to get ahead of myself. I'm not really aware of how the class system works in other countries, but it should be remembered that a lot has changed in Britain since Tolkien's day, largely as a result of the Second World War. People aren't so willing as they were in the past to be limited to a social group determined by birth, and we're no longer brought up to respect our betters and to let them determine our fate. I suppose that a lot of people are confused by the existence of an aristocracy over here, but these days they're really no more than rich people with titles added to their names, not a race apart.

Anyway, I don't want to get sidetracked by the class issue, which has, of course, been discussed elsewhere. Bêthberry brings up a very interesting point that I was close to making in the discussion of the Prologue: the Shire is not an absolutely ideal society, and it is based on Tolkien's memories of Sarehole and other rural communities that he lived in as a child. Certainly to the young Tolkien, torn away from what must have seemed an idyllic setting to the smoke and grime of industrial Birmingham, the countryside must have become a memory of happiness and security, which probably explains his antipathy towards modern cities. He was unfortunate in that his lifetime saw the final flowering of the industrial age, in which science and engineering drove uncontrolled and widespread industrial and urban expansion: the countryside of Tolkien's youth has gone forever, which is one of the reasons why Peter Jackson chose to make his films in New Zealand.

Tolkien was, however, aware of the small-mindedness of Hobbits. Although their talk amused him, he does admit in several letters to finding them annoying at times. In letter #246 (September 1963), he wrote:Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable. Some readers he irritates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very 'trying'. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity - by which I do not mean a mere 'down-to-earthiness' - a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional 'wisdom'. We only meet exceptional hobbits in close companionship - those who had a grace or gift: a vision of beauty, and a reverence for things nobler than themselves, at war with their rustic self-satisfaction. Imagine Sam without his education by Bilbo and his fascination with things Elvish! Not difficult. The Cotton family and the Gaffer, when the 'Travellers' return are a sufficient glimpse.

It is no accident that Tolkien makes Bilbo and Frodo adventurous academic dreamers, Sam an enthusiast of Elves, myth and far-away places, and Merry and Pippin reckless go-getters. None of these qualities are smiled upon in the Shire, and they were all qualities that the myth-loving, spiritual, former school rugby player Tolkien possessed in no small measure. I'm sure that his scene in the Ivy Bush was based on similar memories to those that Bêthberry has shared with us above.

Before I bring this post to a close, I'd like to explore another point that I hinted at very briefly in my last post: Bilbo's singing of The Road Goes Ever On at the door of Bag End. This passage seems to me to exemplify something in Tolkien's prose that is very visual. It is almost a moment that would work better on screen, because it says so much more by means of the character's small actions than by his speech:I am being swept off my feet at last,' he added, and then in a low voice, as if to himself, he sang softly in the dark:

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

He paused, silent for a moment. Then without another word he turned away from the lights and voices in the fields and tents, and followed by his three companions went around into his garden, and trotted down the long sloping path.

Clearly Bilbo is remembering the danger of roads at first; but his silence after the song, his thoughful address and the significant capitalisation of 'road' speak of a deeper current of thought that turns the Road in Bilbo's mind into an allegory of life itself. It seems significant too that he has just given up his old life: his home and possessions, his family and friends, and most significantly of all the Ring that bestows longevity. He is beginning to feel his age, and at this very time he is venturing forth into he knows not what adventures. Small wonder that his mind turns to the uncertainty of the road ahead and its inevitable mortal ending. This is the first shadowing of a general theme of deathlessness and mortality that runs through the entire story: from Bilbo and Frodo to Gandalf and Saruman to Galadriel and Celeborn to, most strikingly of all, Aragorn and Arwen. But this theme can be explored in more depth later, particularly when, in a good many months' time, we reach Appendix A.

Incidentally, davem: I like to regard the Shire as an anarcho-syndicalist commune.

Child of the 7th Age

06-22-2004, 02:55 PM

If Bethberry is "fashionably late", then I must be what the cat dragged in! ;)

Davem, Bethberry, -

It's interesting how we all had such differing responses to the "class thing" in the first chapter. I was acutely aware of Sam's "place" within the Shire the first time I read the book and in fact identified some of his situation with my own. As the daughter of a factory worker and grand-daughter of a miner, I remember daydreaming about Sam as I trudged off to clean other folks' houses to earn money for tuition. When I told my parents that I had decided to continue on in medieval history past the master's, I clearly remember being lectured about the undesirability of chasing after "Elves and Dragons" and was advised to seek "cabbages and potatoes." Needless to say, I had different ideas!

Poor Sam! Always having to stretch between two worlds starting with the very first chapter. Yet Bethberry I do think there is beauty in both the situations that Tolkien presents for us: the chasing after and the coming back. I went racing out the door, turning my back on much I had been raised with, a world that was too small but one that had very firm values and where there were people who genuinely cared for each other. Instead, I chased after academia and later went roaring off to live in England, so I could see some of that scenery Tolkien described. (This was thirty-five years ago, so perhaps there was a bit more standing than today.)

Ironically, however, I find life has almost led me in a circle. With marriage and the birth of children, I am once again rooted in a community and stand much closer to something that, in its better moments, shows at least some resemblance to the Shire. Tolkien was very much a family man. My guess is that the goodness that shines through the Shire actually reflects two things. On the one hand, there were his memories of his boyhood, including the physical environment of the Midlands, something that's already been discussed on this thread. But there's something else as well. Tolkien was a husband and father. Shire life is essentially family life and I think he must have looked to the model of his own household for some of that. There would have been no Hobbits and, by implication, no Lord of the Rings unless Tolkien the father sat and told stories to his children. The "small" life that Tolkien describes, with both its good points and its shortcomings, was something that he found deep within his own heart. And, because it has a basis in personal reality, it is very compelling to many of us, even those who in our own time preferred to go chasing after Elves!

Nurumaiel

06-22-2004, 08:28 PM

Child, and if you're what the cat dragged in, what am I? :D

"When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End..." Those are the first words I heard of the book when my father began reading it aloud to me when I was just barely seven years old. My brothers and I had already become faintly acquainted with this Mr. Bilbo of Bag End as well as his younger cousin Frodo Baggins through bits and pieces about them told by my father, and we were naturally interested to hear the whole tale. We had not yet heard The Hobbit nor read it ourselves, and so we were ignorant of Bilbo's history and exactly how he acquired this Ring; but goodness did we know what the Ring was! The Ring, Bilbo, and Frodo made many interesting games during the rainy days. I shan't even begin to say what stories we made up with those characters. All the worst of the worst fanfictions put together could not equal the horrors that our cheerful, childish minds came up with!

I was a little mite of seven, enjoying my new home in the woods immensely was we had just moved from living in a town, and I along with my brothers had been excited at the prospect of our father reading aloud to us every evening. That evening a fire had been built in the stone fireplace and four wide-eyed little children gathered at their father's feet. No electric lights were turned on, but he ride by the firelight alone. Not too far away the fifth child who was too young to really pay attention was contenting himself with playing toys. And my father began by reading... "Chapter One... A Long-expected Party." He started at the beginning of chapter one that evening and was not allowed to put the book down for the night until he firmly insisted about three-fourths through the second chapter. We were already eager to hear more about Frodo and Bilbo and the Ring, and hearing the words made us firm and life-long friends of the characters. I can recall how I wept at not being allowed to listen to the final chapter of the Fellowship because of my own stubborness and unoblinginess.

Oh dear, those were the good old days.

"...and as Mr. Baggins was generous with his money..." This was one of the first things that struck me while reading the book again many years later. This, I think, was why I had always loved Bilbo, even as a small child. As a small child I pretended he was real, as children are wont to do, and I always looked on this 'imaginary Bilbo friend' as a very kind old uncle. This sentence sizes up the way I thought him when I was young, and the way I still think of him... a charitable, kind, obliging person. One who wouldn't be caught being stingy with their butter for the bread! "'A very nice well-spoken gentlehobbit is Mr.Bilbo, as I've always said.'" So have I! I believed most fervently that what the Gaffer said about Mr. Bilbo was exactly true, and I haven't changed my mind since.

Tweens... "...the irresponsible twenties between childhood and coming of age at thirty-three." When I was a child it seemed fairly obvious that one was out of their tweens when they turned thirty-three, but I wondered when one first went into their twins. When, by Hobbit standard, was one no longer in their childhood? I had desperately wanted to celebrate the day I entered my tweens, but I never had the faintest idea when that day would be.

"'...they live on the wrong side of the Brandywine River.'" This I consider curious. In the discussion of the Prologue it was mentioned that perhaps the Shire Hobbits and Bree Hobbits had a rivalry. This might also be true with the Shire Hobbits and the Buckland Hobbits, if most other Shirefolk feel as Daddy Twofoot does. Undoubtedly by Hobbits of the Shire the Bucklanders were considered 'queer;' the Gaffer says as much. But Daddy Twofoot's statement also implies there might be a rivalry between them.

"'He's in and out of Bag End. Crazy about stories of the old days he is, and he listens to all Mr. Bilbo's tales.'" Sam has to be liked from the first, or at least he was so by me. I formed the mental image in my head of young Sam, creeping away from his duties in the garden every so often to sit at Bilbo's feet and gaze up in awe as he hears of those 'Elves and Dragons.'

My current impressions thus far, along with previous impressions as a child. I would continue, I suppose, as well as reply to observations of others, but like Sam I must be drawn away from the Elves and Dragons to go to the cabbages and potatoes... that is, the work that needs to be done after dinner!

Arkenstone

06-23-2004, 12:20 AM

Saraphim & Fingolfin II - Do you think it is possible that Tolkien was trying to show how normal the Hobbits were and how they could very well be us ? Except for the hairy feet and short stature. I think it is the overall normalness of this chapter that at once draws folks into the book. From any country in the world people can associate with a good gossip over a pint at their local, the family squabbles etc., There is that automatic sympathy that one gives to Frodo because he has been orphaned and an immediate recognition in Sam as a Hobbit of principle and integrity.
Another point that sticks out like a sore thumb is the lack of machinery in the Shire. It is, aside from the Mill, a place where people work with nature to produce their pleasures....be they food or pipeweed. We know that Tolkien aborred the march away from the natural to the mechanised world.
There is also the possibility, from his own experience with war, that he is showing us that it is the normal everyday person, the little person, who goes on these quests (wars). They are the ones who do the dirty work, put their lives at risk and endure things that no human/hobbit should have to endure in their lifetime.

davem This has always struck me - the 'Englishness' of the world of the Shire - to the extent that I was deeply surprised that readers from other countries could relate to the story at all. I can't help asking the (probably unanswerable)question, whether English readers understand/experience the Shire & its inhabitants differently from readers in other countries (as, I'd assume, a Russian would understand/experience, say, War & Peace differently to a non Russian). Or, if you're not English, are there parts of your country that feel like the Shire

I was born in England and came to Australia when I was 15, that was 32 years ago, which makes me 21, that'll save you overworking your calculator. I can relate very much to the English countryside that Tolkien plans his Shire in, but there are also places where I live that could be a good backdrop for the Shire as well. Had I first read LotR in Australia I think that I could have still related a place in OZ to the Shire.......

Estelyn Telcontar Thankyou for the link, I will go and read the thread. I read an interesting article called 'Tolkien's Mother-less Heroes' it also brought in the Fatherless ones, but it was interesting to note that the majority of those who are major players in the Fellowship have lost either one or both of their parents. Gandalf excluded of course.

Just an out of place thing here. I find it more than amusing that for such a long time in Tolkien's story Frodo was called Bingo LOL :( I'm really glad he changed it :)

Gorwingel

06-23-2004, 12:41 AM

As others have said, this chapter is very much about hobbits, and one of the things that really struck me while reading this last night was how Tolkien really defines Frodo as being different than the other hobbits. I know that this has probably been talked about other places but... I was just wondering, why do many of you think that Tolkien emphasizes Frodo being "his first and second cousin, once removed either way, as the saying is, if you follow me"?

This just struck me because this, and the entire history of Frodo could have been something that could have been skipped over, but instead it is brought up. I know that this is here just to tell about how Frodo is an orphan, and to give us history about why the Sackville-Bagginses are so intent on getting Bag End. But, I don't know, I think that is something that would be considered slightly weird in our society, so I find it interesting that he brings it up.

Now I consider this a slightly light-spirited chapter. Because it does have many very light moments, but then also the dark parts that become very important later in the story. We of course have the very interesting Bilbo and the parting of the ring section. Which is very important because if you read the Hobbit, you finally find out that the Ring is no mere trinket, which just makes people disappear. You find out that it is something quite dangerous, something that turns quite friendly characters like Bilbo into something they are not (which also on the subject of foreshadowing, is another foreshadowing of the effect the ring will eventually have on Frodo).

This chapter though has many memorable things. Like I have always remembered the Party Tree (maybe just because I have always wanted to have one myself). Even when I attempted a read of the trilogy (where I failed) years ago, I have always remembered the Party Tree and the Fireworks. This party though just reminds me of one very huge wedding (not a birthday, because with the giving of gifts to the guests, it very much reminds me of a wedding with the tradition of favor giving, and also for many you don't get all the relatives together for a birthday, but just for a wedding, or funeral) with a ton of relatives who don't quite get along.

HerenIstarion

06-23-2004, 01:44 AM

Squatter, great posts up there, both of them!
I'd like especially to turn back to Bilbo's road-song and explore it a bit (even if I reach out of the chapter by chapter format):

As far as I am any judge, the song in question is the first instance of what poetry of LoTR is going to become throughout the narration to follow. For one thing, not one verse is out of place, and, on the surface of it, they always correspond to the current situation on hand. Bilbo is going away, so he [naturally(?)] sings a road-song. But, you are verily on the spot noting that it may be looked at like something over and beyond the mere ‘road-songishness’. If one surpasses our pace a bit, and compares all the instances of 'road-songs' to be recurred in the text, interesting conclusions may be drawn:

So, Instance 1 (Bilbo in “Long Expected Party”)

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

It is notable how Bilbo’s ‘feet’ are ‘eager’ at the moment. He is going to have fun, after all, he’s journey is no more a burden, for he has given up the Ring, and is going to have a holiday

Instance 2 (Frodo in “Three is Company”)
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with weary feet,
Until it joins some larger way,
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

It is hard to notice, and, for the first reading, both songs seem one and the same. But there it is, the major difference – Frodo is going on with ‘weary feet’, journey of his is not to be ‘adventures in May’ as Bilbo’s were in the Hobbit, he, unlike Bilbo, just assumed a burden, which, in the end, will claim his life (i.e. the Road) altogether. And it is expression of Tolkien’s great skill, as I’ve mentioned, that in both cases the verses are very much applicable to the current situation, but one can not help always sensing something more to them than mere expression of the situation on hand. But there is more to follow, still:

Instance 3 (Bilbo in “Many Partings”)

The Road goes ever on and on
Out from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
Let others follow it who can!
Let them a journey new begin,
But I at last with weary feet
Will turn towards the lighted inn,
My evening-rest and sleep to meet.’

Now again, this is very true on both levels – Bilbo is old, Ring is destroyed, so he does not have anything to support his unusual longevity already mentioned in posts up there, and is not going to have journeys any more (save one, that is, last journey to the Havens). But again, there is more to it than meets an eye. If road is again life, than Bilbo is stating his approaching death by it. And here is one of the much discussed and not easily spotted Christianity of the LoTR glimpsing through. What is ‘lighted inn’ and ‘evening-rest’, if ‘road’ be life and ‘sleep to meet’ be death? May it be it is slim hope of salvation, perchance?

Such a duality, I should say, is a characteristic of all Shire poetry, but not to outrun the format of chapter by chapter discussion, let us deal with verses to come as they turn up :)
Cheers :)

Hilde Bracegirdle

06-23-2004, 04:57 AM

One thing that hits me, well like a train, is Tolkien’s choosing to mention express trains, clocks and carriages. He seems to gently ease us into that older world by degrees, first taking us to the Shire, and sprinkling his story with a few ‘more modern’ items before hinting at that there is more to this existence than we or the hobbits are fully aware of.

I agree that we, in a way, are like the hobbits. We are caught up in our own concerns; feeling like this is what life is all about, unaware or disinterested in the things not considered useful or pertinent to our mundane life. But we find there are things that influence life, and a history that we are blissfully unaware of. We along with and through Frodo begin to discover that something else, a difference life, lies beyond the realm of our experience.

As for hairy feet and short statue, perhaps hobbits are really men sprouting roots and growing ‘treeish’, their height merely an outward expression of a lack of desire to reach for those higher things, or to see beyond their own patch of land.

Guinevere

06-23-2004, 06:48 AM

I’m trying to catch up ..... well, what can I say after all these great posts ?
This has always struck me - the 'Englishness' of the world of the Shire - to the extent that I was deeply surprised that readers from other countries could relate to the story at all
For me (although English isn't even my mothertongue) this Englishness of the Shire and its inhabitants is an essential part of the charm of this chapter and I enjoyed very much reading the Squatters excellent posts. Kudos !
This chapter is, of course, accompanied by a map depicting a part of the Shire, and I would like to point out how Tolkien's knowledge of English onomastics plays a part here. All of the names you will see on that map either are or could be real English place names.
That's what makes the Shire so real, the names don't sound "made up" at all !
One of the reasons why I find the German translation so disappointing is that all the English names (of places and persons) which have a meaning, have been translated. That does not only take the "Englishness" away but never sounds so convincing and real, since no translator can have Tolkien's abilities. In addition, the various styles of speech of the characters which makes them so "alive" got also lost in the translation. :(
As Tolkien himself wrote in letter 190
"The Shire" is based on rural England and not on any other country in the world. (....) The toponymy of The Shire is a "parody" of that rural England, in much the same sense as are its inhabitans: they go together and are meant to. After all the book is English, and by an Englishman, and presumably even those who wish its narrative and dialogue turned into an idiom that they understand, will not ask of a translator that he should deliberately attempt to destroy the local colour.

The things that Hilde Bracegirdle mentioned (umbrellas, clocks on the mantelpiece etc) also caught my attention.
I agree with Heren Istarion in his last post on the Prologue-thread that the hobbits and their way of living and thinking are really an anachronism in the ancient and heroic world of Middle-earth. And I think too that this is so that the reader can identify with them. After "The Hobbit" was such a success, I guess Tolkien saw that the readers needed such a "bridge" .
And also :
A moral of the whole (….) is the obvious one, that without the high and noble, the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple und ordinary, the noble and heroic is meaningless. ( from letter 131)

Boromir88

06-23-2004, 07:59 AM

Hilde Bracegirdle
You bought up a nice point about how the hobbits are small in stature and it might just symbolize how maybe they don't look beyond their own lands. They only are concerned with themselves. This would make sense because very few hobbits ever left the shire (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam...etc) and the ones that did were thought upon as "strange." Very few hobbits ever did anything of real importance (Bilbo, possibly the archers sent to aid Gondor, Frodo..etc), and again the ones who did were "outsiders" or "strange." The reason the small stature comes into play, is because of Merry and Pippin. These are 2 hobbits that both did extraordinary things, and of course they became the tallest hobbits ever because of drinking the ent draught. This symbolizes Merry and Pippin's "growth" not just physically but mentally and became more mature. Merry and Pippin went beyond their "lands," or "borders," and ended up becoming the tallest hobbits (i believe over 4 feet tall). So this growth could very well symbolize how both hobbits went beyond what other hobbits referred to as "regularity" and "reached" for higher things, unlike most hobbits who were "smaller" in stature.

Bêthberry

06-23-2004, 09:42 AM

Guinevre, thank you for some interesting quotations from the Letters. I was very drawn to Tolkien's use of the word 'parody', within quotation marks, to describe both the typography and the inhabitants. What I would give for a fuller explanation of his understanding of parody!

I went back to read all of Letter #190; it is one of Tolkien's angriest I think, because the translators have not just translated the names into a cultural milieu which makes little sense of the original, but has also done so so badly, with little knowledge of and sensitivity to Dutch linquistic heritage. I think two other parts of that letter deserve to be quoted here.

The Translator has (on internal evidence) glanced at but not used the Appendices. He seems incidentally quite unaware of difficulties he is creating for himself later. The 'Anglo Saxon' of the Rohirrim is not much like Dutch. In fact, heis pulling to bits with very clumsy fingers a web that he had made only a slight attempt to understand ....
...
Anyway I'm not going to be treated à la Mrs Tiggywinkle = Poupette à l'épingle. Not that B[eatrix] P[otter] did not give translators hell. Though possibly from securer grounds than I have. I am no linguist, but I do know something about nomenclature, and have specially studied it, and I am actually very angry indeed.

Hilde Bracegirdle and others, too , thanks for pointing out the anachronistic mentions of umbrellas and clocks and carriages. I wonder perhaps if we could at least say that such references point to a particular kind of mechanical contrivance, those of earlier developments rather than the totalising factories of the Industrial Revolution.

Squatter, Child and I were discussing in PM the very point you make about Pip and Merry, Frodo and Sam, and Bilbo, that they shared traits not well accepted in The Shire. Good call, too, I think, to suggest that Tolkien himself shared this elven wander lust in his desire to seek greater knowledge of languages and cultures. How very interesting a difference there is between him and his brother Hillary!

Child,

Tolkien was very much a family man. My guess is that the goodness that shines through the Shire actually reflects two things. On the one hand, there were his memories of his boyhood, including the physical environment of the Midlands, something that's already been discussed on this thread. But there's something else as well. Tolkien was a husband and father. Shire life is essentially family life and I think he must have looked to the model of his own household for some of that. There would have been no Hobbits and, by implication, no Lord of the Rings unless Tolkien the father sat and told stories to his children. The "small" life that Tolkien describes, with both its good points and its shortcomings, was something that he found deep within his own heart. And, because it has a basis in personal reality, it is very compelling to many of us, even those who in our own time preferred to go chasing after Elves!

Ah, yes, like you I went chasing after elves, and have returned to a more domestic community, but one that is, I think, a little removed from that which, as Tolkien says in the letter Guinevre quoted, is a 'parody.' I think you are very right to point out Tolkien's strong sense of family. However, I am not so sure I would see his own personal adult life reflected in The Shire's web of social connections. I think back more to his childhood and recall his own loss of his father at--what, the age of four?--and then of his mother at the age of twelve and the upheavals of guardianship and many different domestic arrangements which followed the joyful days at Sarehole. Imagine his aunt burning his mother's letters, having no sense of how precious they might be to him and Hilary! To me, the haunting sense of nostalgia for this community might derive in some sense from the fact that Tolkien himself never experienced a 'regular' family and social situation in his childhood.

This is, however, just a suggestion, as I recall Tolkien's own point in the Foreword that the relation between life and art is very complex and far less direct than many critics would be able to unravel. Sometimes, I think, it is very easy to be so influenced by the charm and eloquence of the art that we think the very stuff and strength of the writing must derive from real life and not from the imagination or creation.

In defense of this, I would make a personal observation of something I have experienced. I have myself complimented someone on how his writing made me feel very strongly the emotion contained in the writing, with my sense that here must be personal experience out of which he was writing or referring to. And I was wrong, as I came know, for the personal experience does not exist, quite as directly as I had thought. I had responded to this writer's eloquence and art and his ability to recreate in a very different context, something which perhaps had a germ growing in real life. It was a most amazing experience for me, for here I had fallen into the very spell of words and art which normally I strive very hard to respect, that this must be real and not artistic illusion. And the writer in question? Oh, he was tickled pink. It was the greatest compliment I could have given him.

Hilde Bracegirdle

06-23-2004, 10:31 AM

Boromir88 - Yes, I also thought of Merry and Pippin when writing , but it is also interesting to examine Gollum under the same light. Bent and downward focused, he ceases to be a hobbit, and literally goes underground.

Keeper of Dol Guldur

06-23-2004, 10:35 AM

A Long Expected Party does seem like a great follow-up to the Hobbit's events, nicely passing the reigns from Bilbo to Frodo, even as far as all the less thought out sorts of similes and things, like mentioning clocks, freight trains and such. For such a simple, grounded people, hobbits seem to have advanced in mechanical technology past even Saruman's tinkerings!

What I like a lot about it is that, unlike a bit of the Hobbit, A.L.E.P. doesn't seem rushed. It's a nice, long chapter with dealings ranging from the notorious Sackville-Bagginses to Gandalf.

What I liked even more about it is that, unlike the beginning of the Hobbit, which seems to rush Bilbo out the door, it gives a lot more insight into the day to day life of all the local hobbits, whether the Gaffer has a beer with Ted Sandyman and Daddy Twofoot in the Green Dragon, or Frodo traipses around after the party with Merry, figuring out what to do now that Bilbo has left and keeping everything sane.

It's not hugely obvious that Merry and Pippin, Fatty and Folco are Frodo's best pals throughout later on, but we learn that Bilbo has a few nephews and cousins who love hearing his stories, and you can safely guess that they were the very same loveable cousins Frodo was best friends with. Not to forget Sam, who also loves Bilbo's stories, and being a neighbor and gardener is up at Bag-End more often than all save Frodo.

Everything is nice and friendly, or at least homely, and the only thing amiss in the whole thing seems to be Bilbo. Now, we knew he had an adventure, and so the quite large amount of dwarves helping out and who were at the party presumably, wasn't much of a surprise, but his little episode with Gandalf certainly served it's purpose well - to alarm us, and make us wonder, just what was going on. It was pretty evident that it was the Ring at work, even without the book being called 'The Fellowship of the Ring'.

Anyway, I can see the obvious connections and similarities with the feel of The Hobbit, and I can also see that this chapter sets up a lot of great bonds between characters that at least I know I tended to forget about later on in the journey, when more extravagent, and bold, and heroic characters came into the spotlight. It's easy to get caught up in the epic, heroic events surrounding Aragorn, Boromir, and even Gandalf draws attention from the four hobbits who were the closest characters in the entire cast-list.

So now when I read ... I try to keep at least one part of my brain thinking back to Book One, and the Long Expected Party.

Oh, and sorry if this doesn't exactly follow up to the last few posts, I just haven't had time to read through all of it yet.

davem

06-23-2004, 01:50 PM

Bethberry

Hilde Bracegirdle and others, too , thanks for pointing out the anachronistic mentions of umbrellas and clocks and carriages. I wonder perhaps if we could at least say that such references point to a particular kind of mechanical contrivance, those of earlier developments rather than the totalising factories of the Industrial Revolution.

Of course, it could simply be that he was, in the Shire, presenting us with an image of the world he grew up in, which did have umbrellas, clocks & carriages, but nothing more complex. Anyone who wants an insight into the kind of childhood world Tolkien knew should read Flora Thompson's autobiography, Lark Rise to Candleford. Flora lived as a child in an Oxfordshire village in the last quarter of the 19th century, & the kind of world she describes could have come straight from the early chapters of LotR:

Spring brought a flush of green wheat & there were violets under the hedges & pussey willows out beside the brook at the bottom of the 'Hundred Acres';.. the ripened cornfields rippled up to the doorsteps of the cottages & the hamlet became an island in a sea of dark gold....

(describing the cottages) Other rooms were bright & cosy, with dressers of crockery, cushioned chairs, pictures on the walls & brightly coloured hand made rag rugs on the floor. In these there would be pots of geraniums, fuschias, & old-fashioned sweet-smelling musk on the windowsills. In the older cottages there were grandfather's clocks, gate legged tables, & rows of pewter, relics of a time when life was easier for country folk.

(Speaking of herself & her brother) They had no need to ask the names of the birds, flowers & trees they saw everyday, for they had already learned these unconsciously, & neither could remember a time when they did not know an oak from an ash, wheat from barley, or a jenny wren from a blue-tit.

The white tails of rabbits bobbed in & out of the hedgerows; stoats crossed the road in front of the children's feet - swift, silent, stealthy creatures which made them shudder; there were squirrels in the oak trees, & once they even saw a fox curled up asleep in the ditch beneath thick overhanging ivy. Bands of little blue butterflies flitted here & there or poised themselves on quivering wings on the long grass bents; bees hummed in the white clover blooms, & over all a deep silence brooded. It seemed as though the road had been made ages before, then forgotten.

And that was a real village, 19 miles from Oxford, in the 1880's. It could have been (for Tolkien probably was) the Shire. Imagine having that, & then having it taken from you, along with your mother, & being left to grow up in a dirty noisy city like industrial Birmingham. You can imagine why the 'Machine' took on such a horrific aspect for Tolkien. And yet, the Shire has become a 'fantasy land' for most of us, & we think of it as a place to escape to - if only in our minds, for a short time. Strange to think that not much more than a century ago real people really lived that way.

Child of the 7th Age

06-23-2004, 02:43 PM

As others have said, this chapter is very much about hobbits, and one of the things that really struck me while reading this last night was how Tolkien really defines Frodo as being different than the other hobbits.

Gorwingel,

This is an excellent point. Most of our discussion has focused on the general characteristics of Hobbits and the Shire, yet the chapter does more than this. For the first time we meet the character of Frodo. Tolkien paints a subtle picture of Frodo and Bilbo: how they were emotionally close, yet so different in other ways, and how Frodo was not the “typical” Hobbit Tolkien’s been describing.

Interestingly, right up to the point when Bilbo disappears, we never see Frodo directly: we only hear about him secondhand through the words of Bilbo and the Gaffer, or the narration provided by the author. Although Frodo’s birthday is briefly mentioned, it’s clear the bulk of attention at the party will fall on Bilbo. For me, Frodo’s “distance” in the first part of the chapter is not accidental. It reinforces the fact that Bilbo, although loving and kind hearted, is currently the one in control at Bag-end, not only because of his position and age but by the sheer force of his outgoing, witty personality.

Tolkien may have left us a hint that Bilbo recognized just how much he dominated things and that Frodo might benefit from a bit more space. When Bilbo explains to Gandalf why he didn’t ask Frodo to come with him, the older Hobbit not only mentions Frodo still being in love with the Shire, but also acknowledges....

It's time he was his own master now.

Frodo is certainly capable of humor and comradeship. He has to struggle to keep from laughing at the "indignant surprise of the guests" when his uncle disappears, and his friends give him a hearty “huzzah” at the mention of his birthday at the party (to say nothing of his later propensity for dancing on tables). Yet, overall, the prologue leaves us with the impression that Frodo is a fairly serious and quiet Hobbit---perhaps “earnest” is a better term—and that this definitely sets him apart.

He took his duties in distributing the mathoms so seriously that Tolkien points out he had a “trying time that afternoon.” There are no witticisms on his part despite the guests swarming all over the house: the humor comes from the pointed barbs Bilbo has left on the gift tags as well as the crazy behavior of the other Hobbits. His response to inquiries about his uncle is short and straightforward: “Mr. Bilbo Baggins has gone away; as far as I know, for good.”

Then, there’s Lobelia’s insult to Frodo as she angrily trounced out of Bag-end upon hearing that Frodo is the heir: “….you’re no Baggins—you—you’re a Brandybuck.” If Bilbo had heard such words from Lobelia, he would have gotten in a pointed barb or two and made her pay for it. Frodo, by contrast, simply shuts the door on her and turns to speak with his friend in a surprisingly calm manner:

Did you hear that, Merry? That was an insult, if you like.

It is Merry who does the more typical Hobbit thing by turning Lobelia’s insult into a joke:

It was a compliment, .....and so, of course, not true.

All of this seems to underline the fact that Frodo is different not only from the other Hobbits in the Shire, but even from those closest to him.

Another interesting point in the prologue....The Ring is already there and is beginning to get its grip on Frodo. What happened to Bilbo is already happening to Frodo. There are two images in the chapter that both these characters share: that of secretly fingering the Ring in their trouser-pocket. Tolkien mentions Bilbo with his hand in his pocket as he says his speech. This is precisely mirrored by Frodo’s behavior when he faces Lobelia at Bag-end:

He looked indisposed to see Sackville-Bagginses at any rate; and he stood up fidgeting with something in his pocket.

In this same vein, Frodo later admits to Merry:

Honestly, I nearly tried on Bilbo's ring. I longed to disappear.

Yet there is another ingredient in this chapter that points to a way Frodo will be able to resist the power of the Ring for a very long time: his ability to have deep feelings for those closest to him. The one thing that comes through in “A Long-Expected Party” is how much Frodo cares for Bilbo. There are a number of passages where Frodo reflects on Bilbo having gone. Amidst all the sharp barbs, jokes, and display of wit in this part of the book, Frodo’s genuine emotion comes shining through. Just look at Frodo's immediate response to Bilbo’s disappearance. The word that comes to mind is “poignant”.

Frodo was the only one present who had said nothing. For some time he had sat silent beside Bilbo’s empty chair, and ignored all remarks and questions. He had enjoyed the joke, of course, even though he had been in the know. He had difficulty in keeping from laughter at the indignant surprise of the guests. But at the same time he felt deeply troubled: he realized suddenly that he loved the old hobbit dearly. Most of the guests went on eating and drinking and discussing Bilbo Baggins’ oddities, past and present; but the Sackville-Bagginses had already departed in wrath. Frodo did not want to have any more to do with the party. He gave orders for more wine to be served; then he got up and drained his own glass silently to the health of Bilbo, and slipped out of the pavilion

His later words to Gandalf are equally telling:

I hoped until this evening that it was only a joke…..But I knew in my heart that he really meant to go. He always used to joke about serious things. I wish I had come back sooner, just to see him off.

Gandalf responds by saying that Bilbo preferred to slip off on his own.

This scene to me epitomizes the strong tie between Frodo and Bilbo as well as their very real difference in temperment: Bilbo who often hides his concern about serious things behind a joke now prefers to disappear rather than having to face his nephew whom he loves; Frodo hoping that Bilbo’s threat to leave was merely a joke and wishing that he had said goodbye despite the pain in such an intimate exchange. It is this ability to feel for another person that will “save” Frodo from the allure of the Ring, at least for a very long time. His ability to “feel” for Bilbo, the Shire, and, perhaps most of all, Samwise will be his first line of defense against the lure of evil.

Sorry about this being so long....but no one had mentioned these things.

Bêthberry

06-23-2004, 03:29 PM

Glorwingel and Child,

A very good point about how Frodo is introduced to us! We need to have him juxtaposed to something to help us understand his character. Thanks for those quotations Child.

davem,

You quote a most idyllic passage about Victorian villiages in the 1880's which is quite sweet, but there are other perspectives of those same villages, which discuss the dreadful nature of public sewage and infant mortality and the sanitary conditions of water. I think also of scenes from Tess of the d'Urbervilles or Far From the Madding Crowds and other Hardy novels. I don't wish to deny any of the very attractive features of The Shire or of the Hobbits in all this, of course, (for it is attractive) but to balance them with the distance which Tolkien's wit and humour create for me.

My point is that Tolkien's depiction of The Shire depends more on what he wants to do artistically or narratively in this chapter. He is not writing actual history, but the 'fiction' of history. He draws on his experience, but does not limit his writing solely to that experience.

However, I would like to ask you what you think Tolkien meant by this most intriguing word in Letter #190 which Guinevere posted: parody. (To be honest, I'm not sure that I myself can fully appreciate his meaning.) I will copy it here again:

The toponymy of The Shire, to take the first list, is a 'parody' of that of rural England, in much the same sense as are its inhabitants: they go together and are meant to.

I think Child has made a telling point, that the conditions we are given of The Shire function to throw our hero in a different light, so we can begin to understand how he is uniquely qualified for this Quest and consider what his journey might be. The Shire is, in a sense, Frodo's and Bilbo's '"foil."

Boromir88

06-23-2004, 04:25 PM

As we have already established the beginning of LOTR is set up in a lighter mood, we establish Frodo and Bilbo's history and the lead up to the party. We slightly see some clues of Ted Sandyman perhaps becoming a problem with his comments and the clear dislike the Gaffer has towards the miller. A topic I wanted to bring up was it seems like Sauron and the enemy builds up his forces rather quickly (I'll give examples when the appropriate chapters are being discussed). Or did all of this really happen "quickly?"

I believe it just seems fast because of the middle-earth's people (hobbits in particular) refusal to see that Sauron is back and evil again is rebuilding. For a short background a few years before Bilbo takes the ring from Gollum, Saruman finds out Sauron has learned of Isildur's death and turns to Anduin to search for his ring. Saruman however does not tell the council (example one of the refusal to see "evil" approaching). Then around that same time Saruman agrees to push out forces of Dol Guldur to try to get Sauron's attention away from the river. It was either the same year or a year after Bilbo returns to the Shire that Sauron secretly returns to Mordor. So, for 60 some years you have Sauron hiding in Mordor. That is the background.

Then the story starts out with this "long expected party" and there is a light jolly mood established, but soon you see this ring Bilbo has is more then just a ring. And underneath all these "happy" times evil is rebuilding. The hobbits as we know don't like foreigners too well and anyone who mixes with them is thought as "queer." The hobbits especially try to think that all evil is gone and passed, theres only good and happy times left, when it's not so. That's why I believe it seems how Sauron is quickly able to launch attacks against the dwarves of Erebor and the men of Dale, quickly apply pressure to Gondor and Rohan, and so quickly able to affect places far beyond Mordor. The inhabitants refuse to see evil, refuse to believe it, so when they are attacked they are caught off guard.

This is ver similar to the events of WW2. The world just got out of a Global depression, just got out of WW1, so what do they do? They appease Hitler (as well as evil) to try anything to prevent another world war. Grant it the middle-earth peoples did not "appease" Sauron but they ignored the threat, they refused to see that anything was wrong and the whole time they were living under a "flawed peace." Within 6 weeks (correct me if I'm wrong) Hitler is able to take France, and within months all of Western Europe had fallen, except Britain. Same instance in LOTR, within months and a matter of years Sauron is able to press assaults upon all of Middle-earth, and Saruman easily takes the Shire. Sauron, as well as Hitler, weren't able to build up forces that rapid, they weren't able to do it within months, but it seemed like they could take control within a short period of time because of the people thinking there was no evil, hiding behind a "flawed happiness."

Durelin

06-23-2004, 06:01 PM

The inhabitants refuse to see evil, refuse to believe it, so when they are attacked they are caught off guard.

I find that it is a beauty of Tolkien's main characters, the hobbits. They do not even wish to realize that there is evil, and they are the ones to face the most evil. All the inhabitants of Middle-Earth have this trouble, as well, but not to the extent of the Hobbits.

The Chapter's title sums up more than just the central event in it. There are many 'long expected' events that happen in the first chapter, setting up the story with its very historical feel. The story does not have a beginning, as it unfolds as events that have long been expected or long in the 'brewing', and have possibly even been fated, occur.

(Short, and continuing my rant concerning the 'feigned history'...I am disatisfied.)

-Durelin :)

HerenIstarion

06-24-2004, 01:41 AM

Concerning names

Just to add some things to the soup. It had been already noted that Long Expected Party is built to parallel, and, at the same time, be an antithesis to the Hobbit chapter 1 – Unexpected Party.

But, with a bit of hindsight, both are quite the opposite – for, in the Hobbit, the party is unexpected to Bilbo only (and half so, since he himself invited Gandalf to tea). Gandalf had it planned long before with a clear purpose in mind, and dwarves look up to it all the way, even before they see the sign on the door.

The Long Expected Party is full of unexpected things, on the other hand (the main thing to happen – Bilbos’s disappearance, is expected mainly by Bilbo himself, though Gandalf knows it to and Frodo may have doubts) – the mere ring of Bilbo’s as we know it from the Hobbit to become the Ruling Ring, Bilbo exhibiting Gollum-like qualities and than vanishing in the midst of a party etc

In both cases Gandalf is in the know, though. But he is Gandalf, and has to be, if you follow my meaning :D

But one of the main differences lies in the names of protagonists, main [hobbit] heroes, which we come to know in the first chapter off hand.

Not to outrun my own pace – it should be noted that hobbit names are generally categorized in two ways – those of no meaning but mere sound – like Bilbo, Bungo, Bingo and so forth, and those of ‘foreign’ origin with some meaning to them

It is very interesting that main hero of the Hobbit, Bilbo, has a name with no meaning at all. It is significant, than that all four main hobbit characters of LoTR justify their names.

Meriadoc – has some Welsh connotations to it, to the best of my knowledge, and roughly may be rendered as “master of the sea”. True, Merry has not much doing with the sea as the sea, but is Brandybuck, i.e. of the only hobbit family to do anything with of water whatsoever. Besides, shortened form sounds like Merry, and Merry the hobbit is a merry hobbit indeed.

[b]Peregrin – Now Latin rooting, meaning “wanderer”, or “pilgrim”. That’s him, it is -wanderer, for sure. In both senses – he wanders (i.e. travels a lot), and he is curious above measure of average (Palantir, per instance). But not merely wanderer, but wanderer with a quest, i.e. pilgrim. And shortening brings him to be Pippin, and Pippin the Short was a frank king in 8th century A.D., and who is that who dare say hobbits are not short, even if Pippin be taller than most? ;) But, most interestingly, Pippin the Short drove Saracens (i.e. Muslims) out of France, and, strikingly, Pippin the Hobbit drove ruffians our of the Shire.

Samwise – old English for ‘half-wise’. But now that is matter of optimism – is the glass half full or half empty? I daresay it is half full, for if it were not so, Gollum would not have been spared and quest would have failed

Frodo – that being the special case. For one thing, in the first drafts of the LoTR Frodo is Bingo (if my memory does not fail me). And that is in line with Bilbo, i.e., is a name with sound to it, not meaning. But as the scope of the work widens, so the name changes, and we get Frodo. And, what with assessment that ‘hobbitish’ masculine ending is ‘a’, it gives us Froda, as original. But Froda is Norse, and is character out of mythology – old king, father of Ingeld (this latter mentioned in Beowulf), but, unlike main bulk of Norse heroes, not heroic at all in a sense he is not bloodthirsty, but peaceful. In fact, he owns a mill which grinds peace for him, and while he rules there is peace. Unfortunately, he is killed, and his son Ingeld turns back to old bloody heroism. Rings any bells? Especially with Frodo later on, when he draws no sword, takes no part in battles, and is generally kind of a pacifist, but very much neglected by his own people

But I’m again off and beyond current chapter. So I would conclude that, even when we take into account Tolkien’s statement that actually the names in Westron sound different (can not give reference or the list right away) and are merely translated, it is all very much interesting. Or, to summarize it all, we have four hobbit names of Welsh, Latin, English and Norse origins, all with the meaning, all highly relevant to the text and events that befall their bearers, and their behavioral pattern. And all is so well hidden, and at the time is so obviously on the surface, that I can not help but am awestruck (constantly so with Tolkien, that is).

davem

06-24-2004, 02:48 AM

Bethberry
The passages I quoted were very selective - Flora Thompson also describes the poverty & everyday struggle of the people - which is why her account of her early life is so moving. But to focus solely on the starkness & harshness of that life is as mistaken as focussing solely on the simple beauty of it. For all the struggles she & her friends & family knew, she is full of regret for what had been lost. She lived through it, & she saw value in it, & knew that something important had been lost.

Its the same with the focus on the 'horrors' of WW1. Yes, horrors there were, but many of the men who fought believed in the cause they fought for, valued the comradeship & were proud of their service. By no means were Owen & Sassoon typical of the men who served. (Interesting points made in Tolkien & the Great War). In short, many of those who fought didn't think of WW1 as a futile exercise or as nothing more than an example of 'man's inhumanity to man' writ large.

Point being, those who lived through such times saw them differently to most of us. Just as Flora Thompson can find beauty amid the poverty, & place a value on that beauty, so can Tolkien. There is poverty in the Shire, but the fact that it isn't focussed on doesn't mean that Tolkien is deliberately 'caricaturing' that world, or being ironic. I think he is presenting what he loved about that world honestly. If he doesn't spend time presenting us with what he hated about it (though we can glimpse it if we look hard enough, & we see it in the state of the Shire when the hobbits return) that's no more dishonest than emphasising a loved ones good points.

(This is what I think Tolkien meant by 'parody', though I think the term is a little extreme - its certainly not 'burlesque', or we wouldn't care about the world or its inhabitants. Its a positive parody in Tolkien's case, & I don't get any sense that he's setting out to mock or belittle the people & culture he's writing about. He simply plays up the people's foibles. As to parodying the toponomy, I think he's 'idealising' the names of places. Its an archetypal rural England - as Rohan is an archetypal Anglo Saxon England)

In short, I chose the quotations from Lark Rise not to try & imply that village life in the 1880's was ideal, but to show that to the people who lived it, it was full of beauty & magic.

And besides, how significant is the last sentence I quoted: Bands of little blue butterflies flitted here & there or poised themselves on quivering wings on the long grass bents; bees hummed in the white clover blooms, & over all a deep silence brooded. It seemed as though the road had been made ages before, then forgotten.

Arkenstone

06-24-2004, 04:03 AM

Boromir88

Do you think that Tolkien might be saying to us that 'traditions' are wise to keep re-telling ? With the seeming departure of Sauron/Ring from ME the tale of the old days has been forgotten, even the fact that The One Ring was not destroyed. Also, ignoring the old traditions, ignoring warning signs, placing ones cranium up ones anus and believing that all is well is not just a habit peculiar to Hobbits. Is Tolkien reflecting what had gone on in the two WW's and also what goes on today ?

I think it might be fair to say that Sauron's forces appeared to gather quickly once the One Ring had been brought from underground. He would have known that it was around somewhere, but not exactly where. Once Bilbo brought it out from Gollum's hiding place it would have been easier for Sauron to 'sense' it. A couple of questions arise here - was the One Ring trying to return to Sauron, did it leave Gollum and 'find' Bilbo ? Why did Bilbo lie about the ring ? If he had said something earlier then perhaps they could have gotten the One Ring to Mt. Doom before Sauron had gathered all his forces to him.

In reference to your last paragraph

This is ver similar to the events of WW2. The world just got out of a Global depression, just got out of WW1, so what do they do? They appease Hitler (as well as evil) to try anything to prevent another world war. Grant it the middle-earth peoples did not "appease" Sauron but they ignored the threat, they refused to see that anything was wrong and the whole time they were living under a "flawed peace." Within 6 weeks (correct me if I'm wrong) Hitler is able to take France, and within months all of Western Europe had fallen, except Britain. Same instance in LOTR, within months and a matter of years Sauron is able to press assaults upon all of Middle-earth, and Saruman easily takes the Shire. Sauron, as well as Hitler, weren't able to build up forces that rapid, they weren't able to do it within months, but it seemed like they could take control within a short period of time because of the people thinking there was no evil, hiding behind a "flawed happiness."

I'm not sure that it was a 'flawed happiness' in either case. Remember that Hitler lost his stab at the first election, then suddenly got in about 6 months later....could have been one of those election rigging thingys. But if it wasn't, then the people of Germany voted Hitler in, it must have been the feelings of a nation that got him there. Sauron did virtually the same thing with people......promises of power, promises of wealth, promises, promises, promises. Tolkien may be showing us not to listen to other peoples BS :p

Hilde Bracegirdle

06-24-2004, 04:45 AM

H-I I ran across this in the dictionary the other day. Something else to add to your collection of names and their meanings. :)

bil·bo (n. Archaic pl. bil·boes)
1. A sword, especially one having a well-tempered blade.
2. An iron bar to which sliding fetters are attached, formerly used to shackle the feet of prisoners.

Either definition sets one thinking.

HerenIstarion

06-24-2004, 05:26 AM

heh, Hilde, you tear half of my argument apart with that bil-boes reference. for indeed I was driving at that Bilbo's name, as part of the more light-hearted story about 'adventures', where lot of toponimy is just plain (The Hill, The Water, The Mountain, The River), is also just funny, whilst the LoTR, work of much wider scope, has layers upon layers of things to be seen and appreciated

But, well, one lives and learns.

On the other hand, I believe the said argument is still plausible, for all of the hidden meaning for 4 hobbits resides in real personal names (exeption possibly Sam, but than, his short name corresponds with our Sam, though it be derived from Samuel and Hebraic, not Samwise and English), whilst 'bilbo' is stated by my dictionary to come (probably) from spanish town of Bilboa.

I believe therefore Bilbo's case to be a coincidence, whilst the other four cases to be there on purpose

Which, probably, proves how much of a swindler I may be.

Or, still, maybe not :)

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

06-24-2004, 06:50 AM

I still think you have a point about The Lord of the Rings, Heren; it's just that Tolkein made a lot of philological jokes in all his writing, and not just the piece we're discussing. It would be typical of Tolkien to give the hero of his first novel a name that could both mean 'a good sword' and 'a fetter', because Bilbo starts out his adventures as a burden on the Dwarves, but soon becomes as useful in a pinch as a well-made blade, eventually releasing them from the Elven-king's prison in a final ironic flourish.

That's heinously off-topic, so I'll return to something that's been kicked around above. Why Tolkien encloses the word 'parody' in quotation marks in the letter quoted by Bêthberry is anybody's guess. Perhaps he was unsure of what he wanted to say, or perhaps he meant to use 'parody' in some modern vernacular sense that he refused entirely to accept. I don't think that we can discount his use of it, though. Given the satirical use to which Tolkien puts hobbits, their status as a pastiche or a parody of rustic Midlanders is entirely plausible. Something doesn't cease to be a parody when it runs close to reality; quite the reverse in my opinion: the best parody never loses sight of the true nature of its subject.

If Tolkien did intend the Shire as a smaller or parodic version of rural England, though, it was an affectionate and nostalgic one. In that respect it's similar to P.G. Wodehouse's sketches of British upper-class life in the 1920s and '30s, which he continued to write long after that social world had gone the way of the Dodo. Tolkien had a strong sense of fun, which would be very likely to depict literal 'little Englanders' rising up to trouble the counsels of the great and the Wise. What The Hobbit began by putting a country gentleman in a legendary setting, The Lord of the Rings continues; although as we are already seeing the author takes the mythical element a lot more seriously in the later work.

As for the unwillingness of good to recognise evil that was mentioned above, I think that Tolkien is more depicting evil growing where one least expects it. Who is it that holds back the attack on Dol Guldur? Why, Saruman; as yet unrecognised as a traitor working for his own ends. Good in Tolkien's works is always divided and uncertain of itself, while evil is always self-assured and at least nominally united. The difference is that the alliances of evil are fatally flawed by selfish motives, whereas when the good and the wise form alliances they have the common good at heart, which gives them greater strength in adversity. Evil always creeps back in, each time attacking where good seems strongest, warping or perverting the greatest bastions of its opposition to serve its own ends. The 'good' side do not allow the existence of evil to make them leave off their trust and goodwill: essentially they refuse to oppose evil at the cost of becoming more like it, which is the hardest lesson of all and one of the major themes of The Lord of the Rings.

Fordim Hedgethistle

06-24-2004, 07:51 AM

Please, all excuse the fragmented nature of what is about to come, but there are so many different points I wish to address that I shan’t even try to render them all into a single line of argument.

Names: frodá is also Old Germanic for “wise by experience,” so that meaning must pertain to Frodo, inasmuch as during his journeys he does very much grow wise by experience. I think this meaning plays off very nicely with the meanings H-I has uncovered in the names of the other hobbits: Sam is already half-full of the ‘native’ wisdom of the hobbits; Pippin and Merry are not really ‘wise’ but possess virtues that they bear with them from out of the Shire to the aid of a world that is in need of those virtues.

I’ve already posted a long entry about names and naming and their importance in the thread Tolkien and Philosophy (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=325164&postcount=10) in which I talk about Aragorn and Arwen as well; not really relevant to this thread, however, so I cite it only for those who are interested.

Revelations: Reading through the posts in this thread I’m beginning to realise that this chapter is all about revealing the ‘fabulous’ or ‘magical’ or ‘darker’ or ‘higher’ matters that lie so closely beside the day-to-day that we no longer see them. Tolkien wrote quite brilliantly about this process of (what he calls) “recovery” in “On Fairy-Stories” but I shan’t address that essay here directly. In terms of what we find in this chapter however:

This process of revelation begins, I think, with the Gaffer’s opposition of “cabbages and potatoes” to “Elves and dragons”; in this line he opposes the Shire and the every day to the two adventures of the hobbits (Bilbo’s quest to the dragon and Frodo’s participation in an essentially Elvish story). He clearly is aware of the existence of both, but just as clearly prefers or thinks it more proper to concentrate on the former.

As the chapter goes on, however, we find that the Gaffer’s idea of an opposition between these two worlds is perhaps a mistaken one. For right in the very heart of the land of cabbages and potatoes we find Bilbo and Frodo – two hobbits who ‘used’ to be ordinary and sensible until they were affected (Bilbo by Gandalf, and Frodo by Bilbo) and thus became “queer.” The way that they ‘stand out’ in the Shire has been commented on already in the thread.

The next revelation is about Gandalf. When he first enters this story he is very much the Wizard of The Hobbit. But there are already hints that there is perhaps more here than meets the eye. At the fireworks display we learn that Gandalf’s “art improved with age.” The Wizard is thus connected with that terribly loaded and powerful word in Tolkien’s world: “art”. What’s more, his association with fireworks foreshadows the moment at which his full power is finally revealed to the hobbits who accompany him on the journey: “I am the bearer of the secret fire of Anor!” Bilbo is the first to see this true side of Gandalf when the Wizard becomes such a threatening presence in their argument, and he threatens to “uncloak” himself.

Closely connected to the revelation of Gandalf is the revelation of the Ring. Throughout this chapter is it merely a small-r ring, but by the end we already have a sense that there is much much more going on with it; it might not be The Ring yet, but it sure is more than a simple trinket!

This is, I think, closely connected to the idea of Road as expressed in Bilbo’s song. As H-I has already quite brilliantly pointed out, the Road becomes for Bilbo and for us, in this moment, much more than just a way to get from Shire A to Rivendell B; it becomes an analogue for life itself with the comforts of home at one end and the comforts of a new resting place at the other, with the adventure of experience along both sides.

The fact that all these revelations (recoveries) are so subtly sounded is, I think, a major part of the chapter’s purpose as it strives to indicate that just beside the ordinary, as though from the corner of our eyes, there is the extraordinary, both wonderful and terrible: Elves and dragons are not just ‘out there’ in some other place that we are isolated from, but ‘right here’ standing upon the same soil from which sprouts our more familiar and comfortable cabbages and potatoes.

Just What is this Ring Anyway?: My final thoughts go to, as always, the wonderful enigma that is the Ring and how it works on one. For me, one of the most highly resonant and important passages in this chapter is:

Bilbo drew his hand over his eyes. 'I am sorry,' he said. 'But I have felt so queer. And yet it would be a relief in a way not to be bothered with it any more. It has been so growing on my mind lately. Sometimes I have felt it was like an eye looking at me. And I am always wanting to put it on and disappear, don't you know; or wondering if it is safe, and pulling it out to make sure. I tried locking it up, but I found I couldn't rest without it in my pocket. I don't know why. And I don't seem able to make up my mind.'

'Then trust mine,' said Gandalf. 'It is quite made up. Go away and leave it behind. Stop possessing it. Give it to Frodo, and I will look after him.'

Bilbo stood for a moment tense and undecided. Presently he sighed. 'All right,' he said with an effort. 'I will.'. . .

. . .

Bilbo took out the envelope, but just as he was about to set it by the clock, his hand jerked back, and the packet fell on the floor. Before he could pick it up, the wizard stooped and seized it and set it in its place. A spasm of anger passed swiftly over the hobbit's face again. Suddenly it gave way to a look of relief and a laugh.

In the first paragraph we have a lot of “I”’s as Bilbo reflects upon the effect that the Ring is having upon him. Against his “I” however is the overpowering nature of the “eye” that is looking at him. This sets up, I think, the contest that will take place throughout the story between Frodo’s “I” and the “I/eye” of Sauron. The immediate effect of the Ring here would seem to be doubting and even loss of the self: Bilbo is wanting to “disappear” (which is what happens to the Wraith’s sense of self) and he can’t “make up” his mind anymore. This paragraph also shows that the hobbits of the Shire have been quite right in their assessment of Bilbo – he is, as they predicted, feeling “queer.”

Only when he agrees to give up the Ring is he able to once again say “I will” – that is, he once again has a will of his own.

The other part of this passage that I find so intriguing is the manner in which Bilbo finally “gives up” the Ring. The suggestion is, here, that he did not really manage to give it up. He did pass over the envelope, but he could not relinquish it completely, as his “hand jerked back” – I love how it is the hand that jerks back and not “Bilbo jerked his hand back”; it’s as though some other will is at work. The most disturbing aspect of his paragraph is the phrase “before he could pick it up,” which implies that Bilbo wanted or intended to pick it up, and only the quick intervention of Gandalf prevented him from doing so (as is further suggested by the “spasm of anger” that Bilbo feels in response).

I think this is an important moment, for in the entire history of the Ring only one person was able to willingly give it up – but here we see that this person was, perhaps, not quite so “willing” after all. Gandalf does not precisely take the Ring from him, but neither does Bilbo precisely give it up on his own. The Ring, that is, does not go from Bilbo’s hand to Frodo’s but from Bilbo’s to Gandalf’s (although he is careful to keep it in the envelope) to Frodo’s.

That’s it for now. Anyone who makes it through the whole post let me know!

The Saucepan Man

06-24-2004, 08:29 AM

Like many others who have posted here, I enjoy the light-hearted atmosphere in this opening chapter immensely. The highlights have been addressed already: the gossipy banter about Bilbo and Frodo, the pithy comments of the Gaffer, the labels on the gifts left at Bag End and, of course, Bilbo’s speech. Squatter stated:

Surely anyone who has been present at a wedding will recognise this sketch of a sympathetic audience, their knowledge of the host's oratorical eccentricities lulled by a sufficiency of food and drink.Those were my thoughts exactly when I re-read the speech this time round. I was put precisely in mind of a slightly boozy but good-natured audience listening to the best-man’s speech at a wedding dinner. The scene is a familiar one, and thus helps to draw us in (more on this aspect of the chapter later).

The humorous “Hobbity” feel to this chapter is, to my mind, essential, as it provides a provides a “bridge” between the light style of The Hobbit and the much darker tone evident in much of LotR. But it is equally essential that the light-hearted passages are interspersed with the more serious moments concerning the Ring which foreshadow the events which are to come. They counter-balance each other and therefore help ease those who have read and loved The Hobbit into the deeper story that he is now telling and prepare them for the darker moments to come. In this regard, it is interesting that the chapter opens with a passage which combines the two:

“It will have to be paid for,” they said. “It isn’t natural, and trouble will come of it!”This concludes what at first appears to be a light-hearted and affectionate dig at the tendency of Hobbits to gossip about anything slightly out of the ordinary, in this case the fact that Bilbo appears to be remarkably “well-preserved”. But, as Squatter pointed out, the cause of Bilbo’s apparent youthfulness for his age is indeed unnatural and will have to be paid for (although not by Bilbo). It is, of course, the Ring – the very focal point for the darker tone which later becomes more prevalent.

I was struck, on re-reading this chapter, by the manner in which Tolkien introduces (or should I say re-introduces us) to the Ring. Simply by means of the actions and conversations of the characters, he tells us two very important things about it:
It is “unnatural”. While not directly stated, it is implicit that it is the Ring which is the cause of Bilbo feeling “like butter that has been scraped over too much bread”, ie the cause of his “unnatural” preservation.
It has a seductive effect on the minds of those who come into contact with it. This, of course is evident from the dramatic exchange between Bilbo and Gandalf occasioned by Bilbo’s reluctance to leave it behind. And, as Child has noted, its power in this regard is apparent from Frodo’s temptation to put it on to escape the attentions of the Sackville-Baggins the very day after having “inherited” it.
Another aspect of this chapter that has been commented on (particularly by Gorwingel and Child) is the way that Frodo is introduced in such a way that makes him stand out from other Hobbits. We know from The Hobbit that Bilbo is regarded as rather “queer” by his fellow Hobbits, and the chapter opens by reasserting this: “Bilbo was very rich and very peculiar”. Frodo is introduced by reference to his relationship with Bilbo and therefore by association becomes peculiar too. And this sense of Frodo being somehow special is affirmed by the conversation in The Ivy Bush, where reference is made to his childhood with the “queer breed” in Buckland.

What I found really interesting was the discussion of the death of Frodo’s parents. Reference has been made already to the parallel between Frodo losing both his parents and Tolkien’s own childhood (which I hadn’t picked up on, but find very interesting). But it is the manner in which their death is referred to that intrigues me. Boating itself is a strange pursuit to the folks of the Shire (west of the Brandywine) and so that in itself makes their manner of death unusual. But the rumour-mill goes further than this. Drogo and Primula supposedly “went on the water after dinner in the moonlight” and Sandyman adds that he heard that Primula pushed Drogo in and that he pulled her in after him. Now, while the Gaffer dismisses such rumours, they nevertheless lend a strange and possibly sinister feel to Frodo’s background and this too marks him out as different.

And all this before we actually meet Frodo!

Also, while on the subject of Drogo and Primula, is there perhaps further material here to support the parallels which Fordim draws between Bilbo and Frodo on the one hand and Gollum on the other? Frodo’s parents died in a boating accident, while Gollum was “born” of a rather earlier boating incident which led to Deagol’s discovery of the Ring.

Child referred to Bilbo’s comment of Frodo that:

It's time he was his own master now.An interesting reference since, in addition to its literal interpretation as signifying Frodo’s inheritance of Bag End (and of course the Ring), it might also be taken as a signal to readers that Bilbo is no longer the central figure in the story. Frodo is taking over that role. Also, ironically, Frodo is in one sense never the master of the Ring which he inherits. Rather the opposite is true. He becomes subject to it. To mis-quote Gandalf from later on in the book, there is only one Lord of the Ring and it’s not Frodo.

I would also add that it’s not just Bilbo and Frodo who are marked out in this chapter as different from other Hobbits. Although there is only a relatively fleeting reference to him, Sam gets the same treatment too. He is closely associated with Bilbo and Frodo by reference to the fact that both he and his father are “on very friendly terms” with them. Some might think this unusual in what is effectively a master and servant (or, as Squatter puts it, officer and batman) relationship. What’s more, he has in one sense been “raised above his station” by Bilbo having “learned him his letters”. And of course, we have an immediate reference here to Sam’s love of tales of Elves and Dragons. So Sam too is marked out at the outset as being somewhat special in comparison with his fellow Hobbits.

Davem said:

Or to put it another way, does the Shire feel like the familiar & 'everday' world to everyone, or does it have the same kind of 'otherness' about it as Lorien or Gondor - does anyone start the book with the feeling that they're [I]already[/] in another world? As an Englishman myself, I would agree entirely with what both davem and Squatter have said regarding the familiarity of the place-names in the Shire. The same applies to the general atmosphere of the Shire, the role of pubs as meeting places and the references to post-offices and postmen. All of these are very “normal” (to an Englih reader, at least) and help to lend an air of familiarity to Shire life. Even the Hobbit family names, while quaint, have an oddly familiar ring to them. This, I think, ties in very much with what I said in the Prologue thread about the reader identifying with the Hobbit characters and so setting out with them on a journey into the unknown of the “other world” outside the Shire. Arkenstone asked:

Do you think it is possible that Tolkien was trying to show how normal the Hobbits were and how they could very well be us ? Except for the hairy feet and short stature. I think it is the overall normalness of this chapter that at once draws folks into the book. To which I would reply very much so.

And so to answer davem’s (rhetorical) question:

if Tolkien had set his stories in some typically outlandish fantasy world, would we care as deeply (or at all) whether it was saved or not?No, quite possibly not, as far as I am concerned. Which is probably at least a part of the reason why no other fantasy novel has ever made quite the same impression on me as LotR.

Finally, mention has already been made of the anachronisms that may be found in this chapter and which certainly jumped out at me this time round. Now, carriage clocks and umbrellas I can live with in Middle-earth. But express trains? This seems wholly incongruous. I am sure that Tolkien would have spotted this reference (in the description of the “dragon” firework) when re-working the chapter, so I wonder why he chose not to change it. This seems strange to me, particularly given his dislike of machinery and his portrayal of the Shire as an agrarian society. Trains have a much greater association with industrialised societies than rural societies. Might there be some reason why he left it in, or was it simply an oversight after all?
______________________________

Edit: I cross-posted with Fordim, who touches on a number of the points discussed above, particularly the contrast between the "normal" and familiar surroundings in which we start and the strange lands into which Tolkien later takes us.

Interesting point questioning whether Bilbo did in fact give the Ring up willingly. For me, you are spot on in your analysis of this passage, Fordim. I wonder whether Tolkien re-worked this when he realised that Frodo would not be able to give up the Ring voluntarily, or whether he knew that this would be the case from the outset? Anything in HoME on this? Child?

davem

06-24-2004, 09:20 AM

SpM This seems strange to me, particularly given his dislike of machinery and his portrayal of the Shire as an agrarian society. Trains have a much greater association with industrialised societies than rural societies. Might there be some reason why he left it in, or was it simply an oversight after all?

Morgoth breeds (manufactures?) Dragons - the ones in Fall of Gondolin in BoLT are machines - to destroy his enemies & by extension to destroy/mar Arda. Tolkien thought of trains as a manufactured object which destroyed this world (Christopher Tolkien tells of sitting as a boy with his father on the white horse hill, & being excited by the appearance of a steam train. He says his father was most upset, & saw it as an 'intrusion'. (interview in the film JRRT A video Portrait).

Dragons are certainly magical but even within Midddle Earth they're an 'unnatural' force. Perhaps Tolkien is trying to emphasise that, playing up the idea of the 'Machine'.

Just a thought. Don't know if it stands up.

The Saucepan Man

06-24-2004, 09:36 AM

Intersting thoughts davem, and they possibly explain why Tolkien used the phrase in reference to a Dragon-like firework (albeit one made by Gandalf). But the reference is still to my mind incongruous with the fiction of the story having been written by the Hobbits. Even if steam trains did exist in Mordor and Angband, they are surely unlikely to have been sufficiently common features of Hobbit vocabulary to be used in this way.

Mister Underhill

06-24-2004, 10:17 AM

But the reference is still to my mind incongruous with the fiction of the story having been written by the Hobbits. On the other hand, you can chalk it up as a liberty taken by the "translator" of the Red Book (i.e., Tolkien), just as the word "Hobbit" itself is an invention, and other Hobbit family and place names have been normalized for the modern reader. See the very last page in RotK, at the end of the appendices.

By casting himself in the rôle of translator, Tolkien is able to smooth over any straggling errors, anachronisms, or inconsistencies in his work. A stroke of genius on his part, I'd say.

Guinevere

06-24-2004, 02:40 PM

Tolkien seems to have been fond of this figure of speech ;) ; I noticed that already in the Hobbit there is something similar:
" he began to feel a shriek coming up inside, and very soon it burst out like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel."

But of course Mr.Underhills explanation is spot on!

mark12_30

06-24-2004, 09:05 PM

LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 01 - A Long-Expected Party
Fingolfin II wrote: with just a hint of darker things
Squatter wrote: However, the gentle comedy masks a tension that Tolkien begins to build right at the beginning of the chapter.

*Varda* wrote:Tolkien again drops hints of darker things to come
I saw several hints of darker things (subtle unless one is looking, perhaps.) Drownings. The Old Forest. Dangerous boats. Elves and Dragons… don’t go getting mixed up in the business of your betters or you’ll land in trouble too big for you. And (Gandalf’s) real business was more difficult and dangerous.

Fordim wrote: Gollum would never have given away his birthday present but kept it for himself; Bilbo, because he's a hobbit, does give away birthday presents, and does manage -- after a struggle -- to give away this one too.
Frodo is the only one of the three who actually DID receive it as a Birthday Present! He could honestly call it that! (And wouldn't it be eerie...) Not just birthday, but Coming-Of-Age birthday present... and an inheritance... what a way to recieve your Life-Changing Doom...

Fordim: about the Foreshadowing-- just *wow*. I took a break after reading your post just to let it sink in. Bilbo vanishes from the party; then leaving Bag-End, rather light-heartedly, happy with his three companions, he foreshadows Frodo's route westward and over the gap in the hedge; he melts into the twilight, dwarf-hooded and dwarf-cloaked (a foreign cloak again, dark green but so stained and patched it must be practically camo, blending perfectly into the woods) and Gandalf watches him go. .... Then Frodo watches Gandalf go, bent and burdened....

I also saw a very divided Frodo from my first introduction to him here.
He had difficulty keeping from laughter at the indignant surprise of the guests. But at the same time he felt deeply troubled: he realized suddenly that he loved the old hobbit dearly.

”I wish—I mean, I hoped until this evening that it was only a joke,” said Frodo. “But I knew in my heart that he really meant to go.”

Frodo was waiting on the step, smiling, but looking rather tired and worried.

He looked indisposed—to see Sackville-Bagginses, at any rate; and he stood up, fidgeting with something in his pocket. But he spoke quite politely.

…if I could get Bilbo back and go off tramping in the country with him. I love the Shire. But I begin to wish, somehow, that I had gone too.”

All this foreshadows the torn Frodo we see as the quest continues, and makes his statement to Sam all the more poignant: “You cannot be always torn in two. You were meant to be one and whole”-- although Frodo was torn in two from the time Bilbo disappeared from under the Party Tree.

HerenIstarion

06-25-2004, 12:20 AM

Frodo is the only one of the three who actually DID receive it as a Birthday Present! He could honestly call it that! (And wouldn't it be eerie...) Not just birthday, but Coming-Of-Age birthday present... and an inheritance... what a way to recieve your Life-Changing Doom...

Well noticed :)

But I think there is a bit more to it. Frodo's person is quite a composite and contains a load of hints to load of things

First, let me retain my Norse mythology connotations to his name (I'm glad to accept the 'wise by experience' explanation by Fordim Hedgethistle too and incorporate it into)

But, remembering Tolkien's famous 'consciously so in the revision' quotation, let me be so bold to mark that Frodo at the same time is Christ-like figure (so is Aragorn, per instance, but that is to be seen later on)

Note one of the similarities - to be revealed in the very first chapter, and heavily stressed upon - Frodo receives the Ring (may I say, his cross?) when he is 33 years old. Having in mind that he is to become the saviour of whole ME later on in the story, it certainly rings certain bells.

It seems to me that in Frodo Tolkien tries to unite Christian myth with those of the pagan mythologies of the north-west of Europe. He certainly employes what C.S.Lewis was referring to as the reflections of True Myth (True Myth referring to incarnation of Christ) scattered across pagan myths (dying god of corn to bring new life). Frodo is to do exactly this - he is to die (in a sense, his departure from ME by the end of the book is death, and, if another sense of death is to loose this world, than Frodo certainly looses it), but than, Frodo does let the world live on by it.

And with all this in mind, Frodo's Ring (very strikingly referred to as 'burden' throughout the narration) comes to him as he reaches 33 years of age.

Hilde Bracegirdle

06-25-2004, 04:01 AM

Yes, 33 does ring a bell, but alas Frodo does not take up his burden at thirty, and dawdles a bit before heading down that road, a bit of a reluctant savior in contrast. Perhaps Tolkien only wants to hint at that reflection of True Myth. Frodo is a hobbit and not a god, after all. But the idea of him returning to the Shire for a time, and then sailing west strikes me as a wonderful parallel, as is the change in his friends upon returning to the Shire.

But it seems, I'm having trouble sticking to the first chapter here. Many apologies! :p

The Saucepan Man

06-25-2004, 06:15 AM

I also saw a very divided Frodo from my first introduction to him here. (mark12_30)

Good point Helen, and well-supported by the quotes you give, each of which makes a statement about the conflict between Frodo’s outward appearance and his inner feelings. It seems to me that this ties in with the idea of Frodo being marked out right from the outset. On the surface he displays characteristic Hobbit traits: good-humour, cheerfulness, politeness and a love of the Shire. But, internally, there is something deeper going on. He is troubled, indisposed, tired and worried and already taken with the beginnings of wanderlust. There is a similarity with the contrast in the opening chapter of The Hobbit between Bilbo’s stay-at-home nature and his adventurous Tookish side. But, in keeping with the darker theme of the book, Frodo’s inner feelings are darker and deeper.

You are right also, I think, that this hints at the turmoil that Frodo is to undergo. Perhaps it also foreshadows the choice that he ultimately has to make between his beloved Shire and a higher calling in the Undying Lands. The fact that the non-Hobbitish characteristics are the less superficial, and perhaps represent the real Frodo, suggests that his ultimate choice can never really have been in any doubt. But for the Quest, he would surely have ended up in Rivendell or somewhere similar, like Bilbo.

Child of the 7th Age

06-25-2004, 03:24 PM

Helen,

Your characterization of the "divided" Frodo is very perceptive. This is what I was inching towards when I said that not only was Frodo different from his Hobbit neighbors but even from folk like Merry and Bilbo who were his most intimate companions. You are right to identify these inner doubts or division as the source of that difference. Frodo may huzzah with his friends or dance on tables, but underneath other things are going on.

SPm,

Interesting point questioning whether Bilbo did in fact give the Ring up willingly. For me, you are spot on in your analysis of this passage, Fordim. I wonder whether Tolkien re-worked this when he realised that Frodo would not be able to give up the Ring voluntarily, or whether he knew that this would be the case from the outset? Anything in HoME on this? Child?

I will deal with this more extensively on the HoMe thread. A short answer is that the idea of the Ring being irresistable and Bilbo being unable to "lose" it is present in Tolkien's notes as early as six weeks after he started the work. However, this idea doesn't appear in the chapter until draft 6 that seems to have been written a number of months later. Here Bilbo at least admits he can't throw the Ring away, and even finds it hard to leave behind. So the idea at least was there almost from the beginning, but it took a while for Tolkien to integrate it with his characters.

The final version of the scene that we have -- the confrontation between Gandalf and Bilbo -- is even stronger than draft 6. I'm not sure when this came in as I haven't read that far in Return of the Shadow! :D If I find out, I'll add another note. So perhaps, as the story developed, certain long-standing themes such as this were strengthened and emphasized as the story developed.

The Saucepan Man

06-25-2004, 05:41 PM

Thanks for that, Child. Interesting that the confrontation between Gandalf and Bilbo was not at first as strong as it appears in the final version. Tolkien may initially have been concerned not to have Gandalf seem too intimidating. Personally, I feel he plays it very well in the final version since he is able to establish Gandalf's power and authority right from the outset, while handling it sufficiently sensitively not to risk having Bilbo-loving readers question his motives. This he acheives by having Bilbo act irrationally (Gollum-like) and out of character in such a way that we can understand that there is something else at work here. In other words, it is the Ring and its effect on Bilbo, and not Gandalf, causing the problem. Indeed Gandalf acts totally reasonably, reasoning with Bilbo and referring to their long-standing friendship before resorting to intimidation. Even then, he reassures Bilbo that he is trying to help him rather than rob him. And the moment passes quickly, Gandalf seeming troubled in consequence. It is crucial that we trust Gandalf's instincts at this point and, to my mind, Tolkien handles it very well.

Fingolfin II

06-25-2004, 09:34 PM

I was born in England and came to Australia when I was 15, that was 32 years ago, which makes me 21, that'll save you overworking your calculator. I can relate very much to the English countryside that Tolkien plans his Shire in, but there are also places where I live that could be a good backdrop for the Shire as well. Had I first read LotR in Australia I think that I could have still related a place in OZ to the Shire.......

Interesting, Arkenstone (Post #29). I was born in Tasmania and moved to Victoria about 9 years ago and I think I can relate Tasmania to the Shire quite easily. For one thing, it is a very 'green' place full of trees and hills that look exactly like the ones shown in the movies and it's inhabitants are a very close and tight-knit community. They share common ground in many areas and know everyone in the neighbourhood and are just overall, friendly and jolly people, like the hobbits are in the Shire.

Saucepan Man said-

It is crucial that we trust Gandalf's instincts at this point and, to my mind, Tolkien handles it very well.

There are a lot of things discussed here that I didn't pick up before, such as this point and Fordim's foreshadowing idea. Gandalf is described as a kindly and sensible character from the outset of the novel (and his character is even more pronounced if you've read The Hobbit), and his reasoning and resolution to Bilbo's uncharacteristic behaviour is a good way of setting up for the next chapters. I agree that Tolkien managed this very well through Bilbo's Gollum-like behaviour and that Gandalf's 'instincts' and his resort to a shock tactic on Bilbo in order for him to willingly let go of the Ring is well counter-balanced by his kind reasoning and friendly, yet firm, persuasions, so that Gandalf isn't taken as someone who uses intimidation as a means to get what he wants (like Saruman)-

'Now, now my dear hobbit!' said Gandalf. 'All your long life we have been friends, and you owe me something. Come! Do as you promised: give it up!'

Then Gandalf's tone changes and he becomes angry at what is a personal accusation of wanting the Ring for himself.

Gandalf's eyes flashed. 'It will be my turn to get angry soon,' he said. If you say that again, I shall. Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.'
He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room.

I agree, SpM, that Tolkien does well with this scene, as we see that even thought Gandalf's angry with Bilbo it is because he is accused of wanting the Ring for himself and it is made clear that he doesn't. This is a very important passage, as it also begins to show what effect the Ring has on it's bearers (i.e. the 'Gollum-like' behaviour of Bilbo), which is a subtle, yet tantalising, hint of events to come.

Nurumaiel

07-20-2004, 09:06 PM

Bah, humbug! Late, late. I'm still working my way through Chapter I, which means I'm four chapters behind everyone else. As our dear Mr. Bilbo Baggins would say: 'Time!' A sorry lack of it. Now, I've jotted down all my confused musings on various passages from the books, organized them, rethought them, and now I post them. In this post I am mainly concentrating on the contrast between young hobbits and old hobbits, and the different curiosities of hobbits, and etc.

The riches he had brought back from his travels had now become a local legend, and it was popularly believe, whatever the old folk might say, that the Hill at Bag End was full of tunnels stuffed with treasure.

The reference to the thoughts and feelings of the old folk on such subjects seems to be clearly justified in the interactions between some characters in The Ivy Bush. They open by shamelessly gossiping about the Bagginses, saying whatever they fancy saying, be it lies or not, and then they get to the subject of 'jools.'

'All the top of your hill is full of tunnels packed with chests of gold and silver?'

So says the stranger of Michel Delving. (I wonder how old he was, for he seemed to quite fancy the idea of there being gold and silver within Bag End.) The Gaffer sensibly denies that there is any treasure in Bag End save that which Mr. Bilbo brought back from his travels, which certainly isn't enough to pack tunnels. The Gaffer is one of the older folk; I can see the stranger from Michel Delving (imagining for a moment that he is a younger hobbit) devotedly retaining in his mind the belief that Bag End is full of tunnels stuffed with gold:

But the Gaffer did not convince his audience. The legend of Bilbo's wealth was now too firmly fixed in the minds of the younger generation of hobbits.

And then when the Gaffer goes on to talk about Sam I get the impression that that young lad wouldn't be too unwilling to be convinced that there were tunnels stuffed with treasure.

Why must the older generation take the more sensible view? Sam, to the very last, retained an image that was like a child's: an image full of elusiveness, wanting to imagine everything as being more mystical and wonderful as it is. Sam was always so thoroughly childish (in that sense; he was rarely immature), and this is one of the reasons I enjoy his character so much. He never lost his fascination for Elves and Dragons.

Now what strikes me as curious is that Sandyman, who would most likely be of the older generation, seems to lean towards the side of the youngsters, and wants to persist that Mr. Bilbo [I]does have tunnels stuffed with treasure ('adding to what he brought at first,' he says). This intrigued me. Would it be because Sandyman has a contrary nature and would take the opposite side of the Gaffer just to oppose him, or did it occur to anyone else as it occurred to me that much of Sandyman's behavior comes from not so much plain wickedness as from immaturity, and that this immaturity might also show in aspects other than his attitude? Just a thought?

Practically everyone living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter.

A presuming lot, aren't they?

Now during the party it says 'there was a splendid supper for everyone; for everyone, that is, except those invited to the special family dinner-party.' Considering the fondness hobbits have for food, mightn't those invited to the special dinner-party feel a little envious that they couldn't be partaking of the splendid supper, that they would have to wait? Or do you suppose that they were content with thinking of what awaited them at a later date?

?but so magnificent was the invitation card, written in golden ink, that they had felt it was impossible to refuse.

Why should Otho and Lobelia attend a party held by and for two hobbits they disliked and detested merely because the invitation was magnificent? I find this terribly amusing, and I attribute to the fact that they are hobbits. Golden ink! The invitation was impressive enough to accept, even if the party would no doubt be detestable. Of course, the ultimate reason for their going seems to be the fact that Bilbo's table has a high reputation.

Some perfunctory clapping by the elders; and some loud shouts of 'Frodo! Frodo! Jolly old Frodo,' from the juniors.

The elders do not seem to be very excited about Frodo's coming of age. This seems to apply to us as well. The adults will clap for the occasion that requires clapping, even if they don't feel any particular enthusiasm for the event. It might be discourteous if one didn't clap. The youngsters, on the other hand, are very excited about it, which is natural. Frodo is more than likely a constant companion of his, and they know him well. It is characteristic to feel more excited about a big event in the life of someone you know well. The adults probably did not know him that well. The only thing that puzzles (and shocks) me is that the clapping of the adults was described as 'perfunctory.' They didn't show the least concern for the matter, and their applause was indifferent. I wonder why they didn't applause 'courteously' instead?

?more food and drink were needed to cure the guests of shock and annoyance.

Naturally. Why, I doubt if the hobbits ever made any sort of medicine from herbs, etc. All they needed to cure them was food. Who knows how many imaginary diseases they created for themselves so they could delight in indulging themselves in that all-powerful medicine of theirs: food. The average hobbit's life seems to be centered around food. They're like moths drawn to a candle when it comes to food. My first thought while reading this was: 'They're mad!' Bilbo, mad? I suppose they would have considered it more sane if he had jumped into a giant cake and disappeared. At least it would have involved food, eh? :rolleyes: :D

?[they] evicted three young hobbits who were knocking holes in the walls of one of the cellars.

The fascination of youngsters. They are so hopeful of finding the treasure, they so firmly believe that their imaginings are true that they are more than willing to knock holes in the walls to find it, hidden away in some secret passage. It's a pity to consider that, when they're older, they will more than likely become like all the other hobbits and abandon all their fancies. Thank goodness Sam never did!

Through the first chapter only, to say nothing of the prologue or other chapters, it can be ascertained that hobbits are a very curious race, and absolutely devoted to food. Yet aside from a few outstanding oddities it strikes me that hobbits are not very much different from ourselves.

Lalwendë

07-25-2004, 02:53 PM

I'm coming late to this thread and I wish I wasn't as there have been so many interesting ideas posted I'd have loved to have discussed. But anyway, I've two things to post about now, some more linguistics and my own response to The Shire.

Baggins as a name fascinates me. In The Penguin Dictionary of Surnames (I've used this book as a reference in the Chapter 5 thread too!) it does not appear, but this does:

Bagg(e) - money bag, pack, bundle - Middle English.

This is interesting as it ties in with the alleged large amount of money and treasure that Bilbo is supposed to have hoarded in Bag End. In The Hobbit, Bilbo is also said to be from a well-to-do family. Perhaps the name was derived from this monetary origin. What interests me is that Baggin is a dialect term for food, specifically for the food which you take to work with you. It is a word I grew up with and still use. I don't know if it was used in Tolkien's part of England, but it may have been used by farmers, as that is my own background. If so, then Tolkien may have chosen it as a name to play on hobbits' love of food. I can't find any origins for the name Bilbo, but I know several people who have Bilboe as a surname.

Now, earlier in the thread there was much discussion about how readers react to The Shire. I grew up in an isolated English agricultural area, surrounded by a lot of older people, and The Shire was instantly recognisable to me as 'home'. The rural landscape was very vivid, including the village pubs, hothouses of gossip for the old men in my own village (there was even an Eagle & Child nearby). Hobbit holes were like the cottages, small and low-ceilinged with colourful gardens. The Gaffer reminded me of my own grandfather; his world centred around his garden and the growing of potatoes and cabbages (his Savoys were in great demand), and if he went to the pub it was to talk and hear news. Characters such as the Mayor make me think of parish councillors, very important (to themselves at least) but in the great scheme of things, doing little apart from opening fetes and issuing newsletters.

I react to The Shire on a very personal level, feeling the same sadness as the hobbits do on leaving it. Now I am far away from where I grew up I find myself longing for my own 'Shire', although I know that it is now very different, and much like anywhere else, filled with commuters instead of rural characters. The Shire is almost an emblem of this longing for the past, the urge to go back to a place that is still there, but also not there. I'm sure Tolkien himself intended this, as he too went through the feeling that he had lost an idyllic childhood world.

On a final note, someone earlier asked whether there are any people who are really like hobbits, being small with hairy feet - they haven't seen my family. ;)

Tuor of Gondolin

07-25-2004, 06:05 PM

I've always liked the beginning of LOTR and not been troubled by its different tone then later in the tale. It seems to me that Tolkien seems to hint somewhere that he should have gone back and changed the early tone, but I think it's a vital "compare and contrast" to the outside the shire world. And was the Ranger strategy of protection of the Shire while keeping the residents "innocent" entirely altruistic or perhaps tinged with a hint of being the "custodians" of Arnor and an (elvish?) regret to have things change?

And isn't it curious JRRT never moved to a rural environment, even in retirement?

Lalwendë

07-26-2004, 12:44 PM

I'm very glad that Tolkien did not go back and redraft the earlier parts of the book, as they are almost 'comfort reading'. I can well believe he may have wanted to do this, judging by the number of first attempts which are published in HoME. It was obviously a part of the book which he found troublesome.

A thought that's just occurred to me is that being such a part of academia, Tolkien was in effect living in a village of sorts. The environment of Oxford colleges is (or was) on a small scale and almost protective - dare I say exclusive, which I use in the sense that it is an environment which provides safety from the intrusions of the non-academic world. Maybe living in such an environment enabled him to live a 'village' lifestyle.

Estelyn Telcontar

01-15-2008, 03:03 AM

This is a chapter I always enjoy rereading, especially for its quiet humour. Tolkien is a master in playing with words, and I am very fond of the subtle, gentle view the dialogues show of the Hobbits. The Gaffer is a treat to read!

In wondering about first sentences and their ability to attract or repel readers, I can't help but wonder if the first lines about Bilbo's birthday party plans might seem too tame to potential readers. Of course, the next paragraph adds a bit of mystery for those who don't already know him from The Hobbit, and right after that, there is a slightly sinister foreshadowing of things to come. 'It will have to be paid for,' they said. 'It isn't natural, and trouble will come of it!' Bilbo's luck is meant, but the question arises: Who will have to pay for it?! The Ring, which has brought him his good fortune, will cause a great deal of trouble - fortunately for us readers! ;)

Numbers are significant in this chapter - I like the fun of saying 111 as "eleventy-one"! Have you ever considered if Tolkien had a reason for placing the Hobbit coming-of-age at 33? The only thing that occurs to me is that Jesus was crucified at 33, but I don't see a connection there.

I noticed one detail this time around that hadn't particularly stood out to me before - the fact that the Dwarf-made toys are also magical. I've never thought of Dwarves as having magical abilities such as the Elves did, but obviously they must have some. What do you think is the nature of Dwarven magic?

The chapter ends with another foreshadowing - Gandalf looks as it he is "carrying a great weight". That makes me think ahead to Frodo bearing the Ring in Mordor.

davem

01-15-2008, 07:25 AM

On 'Eleventy-one'
-ty (1)
suffix representing "ten" in cardinal numbers (sixty, seventy, etc.), from O.E. -tig, from a Gmc. root (cf. Du. -tig, O.Fris. -tich, O.N. -tigr, O.H.G. -zig, -zug, Ger. -zig) that existed as a distinct word in Gothic tigjus, O.N. tigir "tens, decades." English, like many other Germanic languages, retains traces of a base-12 number system. The most obvious instance is eleven and twelve which ought to be the first two numbers of the "teens" series. Their Old English forms, enleofan and twel(eo)f(an), are more transparent: "leave one" and "leave two." Old English also had hund endleofantig for "110" and hund twelftig for "120." One hundred was hund teantig. The -tig formation ran through 12 cycles, and could have bequeathed us numbers *eleventy ("110") and *twelfty ("120") had it endured, but already during the O.E. period it was being obscured. O.N. used hundrað for "120" and þusend for "1,200." Tvauhundrað was "240" and þriuhundrað was "360." Older Germanic legal texts distinguished a "common hundred" (100) from a "great hundred" (120). This duodecimal system, according to one authority, is "perhaps due to contact with Babylonia." (from the Online Etymology Dictionary)

So 'eleventy-one'. though it sounds twee, is a word like 'Dwarrow's' which Tolkien knew should have survived down into modern usage. The recent book 'Ring of Words' has a bit more on this, but unfortunately I'm at work now....

William Cloud Hicklin

01-15-2008, 08:33 AM

"perhaps due to contact with Babylonia"- yes, there's absolutely no way those hirsute battleaxe-waving barbarians could have figured out on their own that base-twelve is an eminently superior system once you get beyond counting fingers and toes!

I think it at least as probable that an ancient Teutonic base-12 system was pushed aside by the influence of Rome- especially since, once they became literate, the Roman numeral system required it. But echoes remain in the language: not just eleven and twelve, but words like dozen and gross as well.

(NB: there were 12 pennies in a shilling until 1971; and well into the 20th century, an English "hundredweight" was 112 pounds, which replaced the medieval 'old' cwt of 108 (9x12) lbs. Now, if somebody could just explain the fourteen-pound stone...:smokin:).

Estelyn Telcontar

01-15-2008, 09:06 AM

Morwen

01-15-2008, 10:24 AM

I noticed one detail this time around that hadn't particularly stood out to me before - the fact that the Dwarf-made toys are also magical. I've never thought of Dwarves as having magical abilities such as the Elves did, but obviously they must have some. What do you think is the nature of Dwarven magic?

Reading the line in question, that the toys were of real dwarf make and obviously magical, I thought that "magical" in this case indicated superior craftsmanship the Shire folk didn't understand and couldn't duplicate. The hobbits didn't have any idea how the toys worked and thought them 'magical' but the Dwarves, like Galadriel later in FotR, might not understand why the toys would be described this way.

Legate of Amon Lanc

01-20-2008, 03:46 PM

I discovered one should keep a note paper with him while reading so that he could note down all things that pop up in his mind while reading. But maybe it is better, since it would make a good book itself. And besides, once again I discovered that when reading Tolkien it is absolutely impossible to interrupt - the books is being read so smooth that one does not even know, well, it's like with that road that goes on and on and takes you far away before you can stop...

To some things that have been mentioned here, I am not stopping at the age, because it surely stands out, but I can't contribute with anything better, only that, well, they are nice numbers if nothing else. The three Dwarves - yes, in fact, I always thought them to be some other dwarves than those with whom Bilbo went (maybe because I would have expected "Dori, Nori and Ori came..." instead of just some vague words about "three dwarves"). After all, the remaining Dwarves were now either under the Mountain (or with Balin :( ), so one would not expect them to go adventuring with Bilbo. So, some Dwarves.

The magical toys, however, were obvious to me on some second, maybe third reading. I always considered the Dwarves as knowing some kind of magic, whatever it was, some sort of a "fairytale" magic, or simply the smith-magic like the Dwarves of the Nordic sagas had to make magic swords and Thor's hammers or golden pigs for Loki (or what was it). Also, this image of Dwarves being capable of "magic" were the verses from the Hobbit: "The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, while hammers fell like ringing bells". So, no problem with "real" magic for me.

Anyway, to my own contributions. Err... *browses the book* Oh yes, I will mention some things I recall have crossed my mind when I look at it.

First, the beginning. It seems to me that a first-time reader who read the Hobbit may expect the book to be about Bilbo. I believe that us who read it with the knowledge of what will come, focus more on Frodo, or not focus, but we understand he is a main hero here. A first-time reader may not think so. Especially at a scene like this:
"...I am very fond indeed of it, and of all the dear old Shire; but I think I need a holiday."
"You mean to go on with your plan then?"
"I do. I made up my mind months ago, and I haven't changed it."
"Very well. It is no good saying any more."
Actually, the whole dialogue looks to me like calling for the reader to think what's going to happen, and possibly suppose that the whole book is going to be about Bilbo going on another adventure. Up to the scene of Bilbo leaving the Ring to Frodo one can presume that we remain in Bilbo's POV and even at the moment when he's leaving the party, we can expect to follow him on his new adventure! Nothing like this actually happens. Even from the view of a not-well informed reviewing critic it's a good move, as a recurring hero could have become boring. But the story fluently flows towards Frodo as the main character and we don't even notice it.

Something more specific. The scene at "the Ivy Bush" (I believe everyone is aware of the inclusio of this scene later in chapter 2 with Sam&Ted, we just pass one generation further) would itself do for a good thread, but this time I particularly noticed what kept bothering me for a long time, in fact, and that's the name of Daddy Twofoot. Please explain to me, why is someone called Twofoot? :D I would understand if a hobbit who lost one leg would be called Onefoot (though it won't be a family name but only his personal nickname), but why Twofoot? Harfoot, Puddifoot, why not, but there is either something I don't understand or we have had a wrong images in our heads all the time and most Hobbits in fact have three legs.

And last, the scene with the Ring being given to Frodo. I just realised how important this moment was. I believe this was the last moment when the Ring could have used, and wanted to use, Bilbo to "escape". Frodo was meant to have it, as Gandalf later says, and if you notice the fact that Bilbo was almost leaving and suddenly, with no logical thought, put the envelope with the Ring in his pocket, well, that's really bad. And immediately after that, Gandalf appears to save him. This is probably one of the most important moments in the book, though one does not realise it. If Gandalf wasn't there, who knows whether Bilbo would not have sneaked away with the Ring and who knows how would the tale have ended.

Anyway, overall this chapter is fresh, full of humour of the Shirefolk, even the narrator is telling the tale in such a manner - later chapters will be somewhat more serious. Fortunately, we can take some of this hobbitish humour with us - with the hobbits who are going through the whole story. I always thought why Silmarillion, CoH etc. are all so different - and maybe this is the reason: there are no hobbits.

Legate of Amon Lanc

01-22-2008, 06:22 AM

One more thing I have to mention. In this chapter, there is the first occassion (not counting the Prologue) when we hear about Gandalf as Gandalf the Grey. I am wondering whether this is a work of later revision, when Tolkien already knew that Gandalf is going to be the Grey, because it is in the infamous sentence about "Gandalf the Grey uncloaked", where otherwise it is not needed to say that Gandalf is the Grey. Later in chapter 2, we hear about certain "Saruman the White", which we can take only as a part of his name (like Thorin Oakenshield) and only at the Council of Elrond the "title" of Gandalf the Grey repeats itself, and we finally "learn" (or rather, can guess) why he is called Gandalf the Grey: because Saruman greets him like that (in response to Gandalf calling him Saruman the White). Technically, before this exchange of the two, we have no reason to call Gandalf "Gandalf the Grey", because we don't know any other Gandalf, or anyone with another color, if you understand my point. All in all, I consider interesting the fact that after the reader knowing Gandalf for so long (through the Hobbit), he is suddenly named here as "the Grey".

Guinevere

01-23-2008, 04:18 PM

I noticed one detail this time around that hadn't particularly stood out to me before - the fact that the Dwarf-made toys are also magical. I've never thought of Dwarves as having magical abilities such as the Elves did, but obviously they must have some. What do you think is the nature of Dwarven magic?

Well, after all, the Dwarves had made the magical secret door to the Lonely Mountain, and Narvi made the secret door to Moria.
In the first age, the Dragon-helm of Dor Lomin was made by the Dwarf Telchar, and so was Narsil, Elendil's Sword, as well as the knife Angrist. All of those items have certain magical qualities.
I think their magic is more like a craft, and apparently only a few of them were so skilled, and much was forgotten later. Thorin & co had no idea how to make the door visible, let alone open it, and Gimli was no help either.

Rumil

02-21-2008, 10:46 AM

Hi all,

chapter 1 has been covered very well indeed in this thread!

Guinevere, I agree with you that the Dwarves' magic is tied up in manufacture of magic items, not in casting spells as such. Though I was wondering how much of a market there would be for magical toys and miniature musical instruments in Middle Earth! I guess their presence here shows that Dale had been re-established and was busy distributing goods manufactured by the Dwarves at Erebor.

Pictures are mentioned as being left at Bag End for Frodo. I don't have my copy of The Hobbit on hand at the moment, is there a picture in the drawing of Bilbo's front hall? Anyway, Hobbit art, I wonder what that's like? We know that the Hobbits were skilled craftsmen with nimble fingers, which sounds encouraging. I guess they would have had portraits of ancestors and relations (in the better families naturally!) and maybe landscapes and country scenes, I like the idea of a Hobbit 'Haywain'.

davem

02-21-2008, 10:59 AM

I don't have my copy of The Hobbit on hand at the moment, is there a picture in the drawing of Bilbo's front hall?

There are two framed objects which seem to be two mirrors, one on either side of the door - the one on the right reflects the open door & the one on the left shows at tree like one of the two trees just outside the door. However, the one on the left is concave, so it maybe a picture - wouldn't the tree's reflection be upside down in a concave mirror?

Rumil

02-21-2008, 11:11 AM

Hi davem,

cheers for that, I thought I remembered something. I think it would be entirely appropriate for Bilbo to commission a painting of his own garden and the tree and hang it in the hallway to cheer himself up during the winter or foul weather perhaps. After all it does seem to be a jolly nice garden!

Getting tangled up in the translator conceit yet again, does anyone know if the illustrations themselves in The Hobbit are directly attributed to Bilbo or are 'imaginative recreations' by that Tolkien fellow who translated the Red Book?

davem

02-21-2008, 12:56 PM

This is the original - & if you click on it you can see the coloured version by HE Riddett. http://search.msn.com/images/results.aspx?q=hall%20at%20bag%20end&FORM=BIRE#focal=88fc168e6848ed06c3dd80d02603f4c3&furl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tolkien.ru%2Fpictures%2Fpbjr rt%2Fbag_endm.jpg

Pitchwife

02-13-2009, 01:47 PM

Legate -
Please explain to me, why is someone called Twofoot? I would understand if a hobbit who lost one leg would be called Onefoot (though it won't be a family name but only his personal nickname), but why Twofoot? Harfoot, Puddifoot, why not, but there is either something I don't understand or we have had a wrong images in our heads all the time and most Hobbits in fact have three legs.
I'd imagine it refers to height: either ol' Daddy himself or one of his ancestors was uncommonly short even for a Hobbit (possibly not literally two feet - maybe just a little under three, and 'Twofoot' was a humorous exaggeration). In German, at least (and for all that I know in English, too), many family names - such as aren't patronymics or refer to the owner's profession - historically started as personal nicknames that became hereditary. Tolkien's own family name is a nice example, being derived from the German adjective tollkühn = 'foolhardy'. I'd suppose one of the Prof's ancestors (let's call him John) earned the name of 'John the Foolhardy' by his rash and daring temperament; now that person's son would be called 'Christopher Foolhardy' in shorthand for 'Christopher, John the Foolhardy's son', and thus the nickname would be passed on to future generations, although few of them, if any, displayed the character trait that inspired the name in the first place.

Legate of Amon Lanc

02-13-2009, 03:36 PM

Ah, truly, truly, Pitchwife. It didn't occur to me. Thank you. (I was probably stemming from the fact that in the translation to my mothertongue, the "Twofoot" is really translated in the sense "Two-legs", so I haven't thought of the other possible interpretation.)

But still, I am not that hasty in accepting this possibility. After all, is there any definite proof in the books that the Hobbits really had usually just two legs? ;)

Pitchwife

02-13-2009, 03:57 PM

Can't help feeling like you're pulling my leg... Wait a sec - which of them? *Retires to count his appendages*
By the way, what is your native language?

Legate of Amon Lanc

02-13-2009, 04:38 PM

Czech. And speaking of the translation, it's a very good one, just sometimes there are moments when the translator probably did not think that deeply about the etymology of some ambiguous names (like Twofoot. Another one I recall is Standelf, which is an otherwise unknown village on the edge of the Old Forest, apparently derived from stone-delf, which the translator however interpretated as stand-elf. But say, nothing one would discover unless really examining it deeply - and the trick is, if you think you understand the word, you usually don't think of questioning it and look for other possible translations).

Eönwë

02-13-2009, 05:42 PM

But still, I am not that hasty in accepting this possibility. After all, is there any definite proof in the books that the Hobbits really had usually just two legs? ;)

You know, I don't think there is any... maybe they had four legs (Fourfoot) and were actually small Wargs.

More seriously:
Also, this image of Dwarves being capable of "magic" were the verses from the Hobbit: "The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, while hammers fell like ringing bells". So, no problem with "real" magic for me.
There is also what Tolkien says in the UT, on the Druedain
...the 'magic' skills with which the Dwarves were credited...
Which assumes that at least others (outsiders), saw some of their work as magic.

But anyway, magic in ME is not really "magic", but only seems so to those who do not understand it.

'Tis late-ish. I'll be back with more tomorrow.

Marlowe221

12-15-2010, 11:08 AM

Squatter:

This has always struck me - the 'Englishness' of the world of the Shire - to the extent that I was deeply surprised that readers from other countries could relate to the story at all. I can't help asking the (probably unanswerable)question, whether English readers understand/experience the Shire & its inhabitants differently from readers in other countries (as, I'd assume, a Russian would understand/experience, say, War & Peace differently to a non Russian). Or, if you're not English, are there parts of your country that feel like the Shire - Hope this is not too far off topic, but the effect of the opening chapter on myself (& like Squatter I'd include the map of the Shire in with the first chapter) is to place me in a world which I recognise - landscapes, placenames, personal names, etc - so that the sense of 'menace' is more intense & disturbing because its happening 'at home', as it were. If you come from a country/culture which is very diferent from the one described, do you identify with the Shire, or does it feel more 'alien' to you. Or to put it another way, does the Shire feel like the familiar & 'everday' world to everyone, or does it have the same kind of 'otherness' about it as Lorien or Gondor - does anyone start the book with the feeling that they're [I]already[/] in another world?

I realize that this thread is quite old but having found this particular observation fascinating I could not help but respond.

While the Shire is very English in its placenames and geographical features I, as an American, have always been able to identify very strongly with the Shire and its inhabitants simply because I am from a part of the US that shares many features (IMHO) with the Shire.

I am from Mississippi - a VERY rural and agricultural state. We have a remarkably varied landscape here, just like the Shire. We have more than our share of gently rolling hills, woods, fields, and little rivers. A dirt road is not uncommon when one gets outside of town (or "out in the county" as we would say). It is green and beautiful. We even have a region much like the Marish, i.e. the Delta, where it is very flat, sometimes marshy, near a river on our border, largely farm land, and so on.

Much of our culture in Mississippi (and the rural Southeastern US in general) has a tendency to be parochial and insular. Conversations run as much, if not more, to the doings of the neighbors and other acquaintances as they do to events on the national scale. Of course there are exceptions - there are large cities like Atlanta and great centers of learning and education like the famous universities in North Carolina. But Mississippi is hundreds of miles away from those places and is still very rural. In fact one might say, with some truth, that a love of learning is far from general here - a very frustrating fact.

Meanwhile genealogy is very important here and conversations between strangers inevitably run to which county one is from, whom one knows, and to whom one is related. I have heard and listened to conversations that sound very much like things the various Hobbits say through the first few chapters in the Shire (i.e. syntax, diction, turns of phrase, etc.) all my life, though of course with Southern accents rather than English ones.

Of course the parallels are not exact and it is easy for me to see many differences as well. Americans who live in other parts of the country may not be able to relate so well but I have always imagined that Americans living in the Southeast and New England (as another example) probably don't have too tough a time finding a vicarious home in the Shire.

Galadriel

02-15-2011, 12:58 AM

The title of the first chapter in The Lord of the Rings obviously links the book to The Hobbit, in which the first chapter is titled ‘An Unexpected Party’. It certainly feels like the sequel Tolkien’s readers and publisher expected of him. Let’s discuss what happens in this chapter and how it affects you. What do you especially like about it – or dislike? Do you remember reading it the first time?

Let’s keep the discussion primarily on the events of this chapter, without touching on things to come more than absolutely necessary. Everyone is welcome to join in!

I only saw the connection after I read The Hobbit. However, while the opening chapter of The Hobbit is like to the light-heartedness of the first chapter of LotR, the latter seemed to have a more profound effect on me.

I'll be honest - the first time, I actually disliked it. In fact, I shoved it in my cupboard and didn't look at it again for another month. But after I picked it up a second time, well, it had me hooked. The chapter had a very 'magical' and 'fairy-like' feel, which continued till the end of Lothlórien.

'A Long-Expected Party' was one chapter which was, to me, more striking in imagery than most. Why, I still can't fathom.

Thinlómien

09-22-2016, 04:25 PM

...and of course we intentionally started on September 22nd, but apparently we were even more accurate than we thought we would be because Bilbo and Frodo's birthday was Thursday September 22nd, just like today. Nice!

On this reread, the thing that caught my eye the most was the hobbits' conflicted relationship with literacy. It's said - elsewhere - that hobbits tended to learn how to cook before they learnt their letters and many never got so far as the latter. Here Gaffer Gamgee is very defensive about letting his son to learn reading and writing. Yet Bilbo sent written party invitations by a well established mail service and there's no mention of some people not understanding their mail. Furthermore, letter writing seems commonplace.

Is there a subtle class division here? Or is Tolkien poking fun at hobbits and consequently at "common people" for their lack of reading comprehension/ aversion to reading? Or is his world building simply a little incoherent? (The hobbits get the most anachronistic parts too, anyway.) I think I might be one of those instances were Tolkien's otherwise very complete world-building is forgotten in favour of something else - in this case, social commentary.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-22-2016, 04:52 PM

...and of course we intentionally started on September 22nd, but apparently we were even more accurate than we thought we would be because Bilbo and Frodo's birthday was Thursday September 22nd, just like today. Nice!
I think that's amazing, even though (as it happens) completely unintended. But great! How often does one get such an opportunity, right? (Now, hands up, how many of you who are reading this started looking at calendars to see on which year will this be possible again...)

On this reread, the thing that caught my eye the most was the hobbits' conflicted relationship with literacy. It's said - elsewhere - that hobbits tended to learn how to cook before they learnt their letters and many never got so far as the latter. Here Gaffer Gamgee is very defensive about letting his son to learn reading and writing. Yet Bilbo sent written party invitations by a well established mail service and there's no mention of some people not understanding their mail. Furthermore, letter writing seems commonplace.

Interesting that you bring that up, because this time I have just noticed and paid attention to the persona of Mr. Hugo Bracegirdle, who seems to be quite a reader. It seems obvious that he must have read dozens of books, which is probably dozen times more than you would expect from a common hobbit.

On the general scale, I think there might be something about what you said regarding the "class division" - it should be noted however that for example Gaffer Gamgee is presented as really really the lowest of low classes, labeled as "poor" on more than one occassion. You are probably right about the "social commentary" - the whole Shire is a bit of "social commentary", or maybe not so much a commentary as just plain fun. And from the "inside the world" point of view, the poor hobbits who can't read can probably just figure out when they get a letter written in golden ink that it is an invitation to Bilbo Baggins' party.

Of course, there are other explanations possible - maybe there is some sort of dichotomy here in that there may actually be tons of books around in the Shire, but they are all family chronicles. Maybe people also don't mind Hugo Bracegirdle not returning books that much if they don't read so much themselves. (What else could these be if not belles-lettres? Books about herbs? Treatises on pipeweed? - I bet that exists! - Atlas of mushrooms. That kind of stuff...)

Anyway, Mr. Bracegirdle just became one of my favourite very minor characters. Must be an interesting fellow, in any case.

What else did I notice on this re-read? Well, among other things, I am going to name especially this one: I guess many people would have paid attention to it already on first reading, but somehow, I never did...
"...I have thought of a nice ending for it: and he lived happily ever after to the end of his days."
Gandalf laughed. "I hope he will. But nobody will read the book, however it ends."
I guess always whenever reading this part I have been preoccupied by thinking about what Bilbo is saying: connecting it in my mind already to the future, thinking about how the story ends, about Frodo's wounds which never heal and so on. This time, really for the first time, I paid attention to what Gandalf is saying. He is so wrong, for one, and secondly, he is talking about us. About the people who are reading this book. I think that's brilliant, also from the writer's part. As we know, Tolkien was all about "living the story" and this makes us part of the story even more, because here we are being talked about. By Gandalf! And what more, by Gandalf who claims we don't exist! O he of little faith.

Boromir88

09-23-2016, 09:56 AM

I guess always whenever reading this part I have been preoccupied by thinking about what Bilbo is saying: connecting it in my mind already to the future, thinking about how the story ends, about Frodo's wounds which never heal and so on. This time, really for the first time, I paid attention to what Gandalf is saying. He is so wrong, for one, and secondly, he is talking about us. About the people who are reading this book. I think that's brilliant, also from the writer's part. As we know, Tolkien was all about "living the story" and this makes us part of the story even more, because here we are being talked about. By Gandalf! And what more, by Gandalf who claims we don't exist! O he of little faith.~Legate

It's fascinating that no matter how many times you read this book there's always some little detail or comment that grabs your attention in a way that hadn't happened previously. And it creates a different reaction, different perspective.

This time for me it was Gandalf's fireworks. I mean from a hobbits POV it is Gandalf's most distinguishable characteristic. And I've always been focused on the grand firework, Gandalf's homage to Bilbo's adventure from The Hobbit. This time through I was actually picturing the small novelty fireworks he distributed:

...But there was also a generous distribution of squibs, crackers, backarappers, sparklers, torches, dwarf-candles, elf-fountains, goblin-barkers and thunder-claps.

Tolkien weaves in real life novelties that kids can use (squibs, crackers, backarappers, sparklers, torches) and adds in fantasy novelty fireworks that were distributed to hobbit children (dwarf-candles, elf-fountains, goblin-barkers and thunder-claps). He uses real life examples that everyone's used...who isn't familiar with squibs or lighting sparklers? Then he adds fireworks that are made up, but we can imagine how they work and look. Dwarf-candles, well probably a more extravagant version of roman-candles. Elf-fountains, a tube with a fuse you light and out shoots jets of gold and silver sparks. Goblin-barkers and thunder-claps, the really loud and obnoxious crackers that parents hate if someone gives their children. I'm not sure if you get this image if the passage just reads:

"But there was also a distribution of dwarf-candles, elf-fountains, goblin-barkers and thunder-claps."

Some additional comments...

As has been discussed multiple times this chapter parallels the first chapter of The Hobbit. We return to Bag End and are meant to make the connection to The Hobbit. Not only in the two parties and Bilbo's sudden disappearance again, but in slightly different settings and circumstances A Long Expected Party takes you through a rough outline of Bilbo's adventure 60 years ago.

After establishing the parallel, we get first introduced to the protagonist, Bilbo's heir, Frodo, and we learn Frodo's parentage and how he came to Bag End. Gandalf arrives and the last time this happened Bilbo quite mysteriously disappeared. At the party, The description of Gandalf's fireworks culminating in the final nod to Bilbo's adventure with the lonely mountain and dragon. Bilbo mentions during his speech how he arrived in Esgaroth with such a bad cold all he could say was "Thag you very buch." Then we come to the Ring, how it was most unusual in Bilbo altering the story, and Bilbo even becoming very much like Gollum in "It's mine. My precious." Bilbo leaves again, and on the next day when various hobbits came busting into Bag End to pillage, raid and try to bargain for Bilbo's stuff, I was reminded of Bilbo returning in the middle of the auction. So, under a slightly tweaked setting, Tolkien includes a basic run down of events from The Hobbit. He sets these events into a different story, and while there are parallels to the earlier book, we know this is going to be a different sort of tale. Frodo's journey is not going to be like Bilbo's.

Thinlómien

09-23-2016, 02:32 PM

Of course, there are other explanations possible - maybe there is some sort of dichotomy here in that there may actually be tons of books around in the Shire, but they are all family chronicles. Maybe people also don't mind Hugo Bracegirdle not returning books that much if they don't read so much themselves. (What else could these be if not belles-lettres? Books about herbs? Treatises on pipeweed? - I bet that exists! - Atlas of mushrooms. That kind of stuff...)This is actually interesting and made me think of this new thread I saw yesterday: Smaug Is Not a Bookworm (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19040).

Boro, you mentioned Gandalf's fireworks. They are a lovely detail and a good way to introduce fire as Gandalf's element and thus sort of foreshadow his use of fire in The Ring Goes South and the revelation that Gandalf is the bearer of Narya. (Side note, do you guys think Gandalf was able to make such fancy fireworks thanks to the ring? :D) This would be a topic for a thread of its own, but I just thought about how fire is quite closely associated with Gandalf the Grey but Gandalf the White doesn't seem to have any special connection with the element. I wonder if it's an intentional choice on Tolkien's part, or if there is just no space for Gandalf's "fire magic" later in the book.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-23-2016, 02:48 PM

(Side note, do you guys think Gandalf was able to make such fancy fireworks thanks to the ring? :D)
I never doubted it. If Galadriel uses her ring to make Lórien beautiful, why not use Narya to make the Shire celebrations pretty? I don't think it would be any blasphemy to use the Ring for such purposes.

This would be a topic for a thread of its own, but I just thought about how fire is quite closely associated with Gandalf the Grey but Gandalf the White doesn't seem to have any special connecion with the element. I wonder if it's an intentional choice on Tolkien's part, or if there is just no space for Gandalf's "fire magic" later in the book.

Actually I think he does some fire-stuff later. I can't recall exactly now what, but I think there were some cases. But in any case sure, they would be much less-pronounced than the earlier ones: from frying Wargs (twice) and making fireworks (and torturing Gollums...), there isn't that much else... of course you could say he is much more associated with pure light there, afterwards: a fire in a "higher form", perhaps? An "ideal fire without smoke"?

Estelyn Telcontar

09-23-2016, 03:22 PM

Thanks for re-starting this discussion, Lommy and Legate! I'm going to try to join in as much as possible.

I just realized that there's an additional echo back to the first chapter of the Hobbit - an impromptu orchestra! The Dwarves played together at the Unexpected Party - with quite a result, getting Bilbo to feel with them and join their quest.

At the Long-Expected Party the younger Hobbits played together with the instruments they got in the musical crackers. They got others to dance (and we learn of the Springle-ring), but other than that, nothing really resulted from their music.

Is it the diminished stature of Hobbits vs. Dwarves that makes their music less moving? Is it the smaller size of the instruments? It does seem that music diminishes in Middle-earth, starting off mighty with the Great Music of creation, then dwindling over the ages.

Galadriel55

09-23-2016, 08:33 PM

Maybe people also don't mind Hugo Bracegirdle not returning books that much if they don't read so much themselves.

I think they do mind very much. It doesn't matter that they don't really need the book and that they might never read it; it decorates their bookshelf and gives an air of learning and upper-classness and family history and pompousness. How dare that Hugo Bracegirdle not return the familial treasure, the ancient dusty volume passed down from father to son since the times of the Generic Ancestor Number Fifteen? I feel like not returning a book could be considered as stepping on one's honour and thus a great offence.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-25-2016, 03:54 AM

I just realized that there's an additional echo back to the first chapter of the Hobbit - an impromptu orchestra! The Dwarves played together at the Unexpected Party - with quite a result, getting Bilbo to feel with them and join their quest.

At the Long-Expected Party the younger Hobbits played together with the instruments they got in the musical crackers. They got others to dance (and we learn of the Springle-ring), but other than that, nothing really resulted from their music.
But also Bilbo stopped it (at least the part which started impromptu during his Speech) before it had the chance to bloom into anything.

One would say, maybe it is also a parallel to the Unexpected Party like this. Back then, Bilbo's home was hijacked, and strangers just poured into his house and started playing music. Here, half a century later, Bilbo is his own master; the party is not Unexpected but Long-expected, guests arrive but Bilbo invites them first, and when somebody begins to play in the middle of his speech, he is perfectly in control :D

Is it the diminished stature of Hobbits vs. Dwarves that makes their music less moving? Is it the smaller size of the instruments? It does seem that music diminishes in Middle-earth, starting off mighty with the Great Music of creation, then dwindling over the ages.
That is nice observation, and sort of sad (but that would fit the overall course of Arda). But yes, Dwarven music would obviously still be more "heroic" and closer to their ancient roots than Hobbit music, even though again the Dwarven music would have roots somewhere in Aulë's domain, while the Hobbit music should ultimately have more in common with the music of Men and therefore also Elves, as other Children of Ilúvatar.
I think they do mind very much. It doesn't matter that they don't really need the book and that they might never read it; it decorates their bookshelf and gives an air of learning and upper-classness and family history and pompousness. How dare that Hugo Bracegirdle not return the familial treasure, the ancient dusty volume passed down from father to son since the times of the Generic Ancestor Number Fifteen? I feel like not returning a book could be considered as stepping on one's honour and thus a great offence.

That's a good remark. True: hobbits may not be interested so much in reading, but they are (at least some of them) quite aware of their possessions.

Although (and again some interesting dynamic here), there is, also in this chapter, a certain counter-evidence present that actually Hobbits were not as greedy or possessive as it sometimes seems (this image of a grumpy Sackville-Baggins who greets visitors by "get off my field!" "hands off my spoons!" "return my books!"); you have the whole hints at underlying non-possessiveness (starting from "natural resilience" to the Ring, I daresay most hobbits would be still slower to succumb than an average Man; the circulation of mathoms not all of which are just old junk, the general spirit of hospitality when you invite your neighbours for a drink even if it's the Old Winyard and so on).

Morsul the Dark

04-29-2018, 08:28 PM

Have any of you also wondered which three Dwarves were at Bag End for the party and began the journey with Bilbo? I suppose, in the absence of any actual information by Tolkien, we can only speculate. I'd like to think that at least one of them was from the "There and Back Again" group of adventurers...

Apparently according to Return of Shadow they might be Nar, Anar, and Hannar

That being said I came here looking for an answer to a question. They were close enough to hear a whistle and it certainly doesn’t seem to me that Gandalf and Bilbo were whispering, did they just not care? Seems like the type of argument you might ask about.

Boromir88

08-04-2018, 08:17 AM

It continues to amaze me how you can latch on to a different snippet and tiny detail every time you reread Tolkien. This time, probably with The Hobbit more fresh in my memory it's Bilbo's garments when he leaves Bag End for the last time:

"He took off his party clothes, folded up and wrapped in tissue-paper his embroidered silk waistcoat, and put it away. Then he put on quickly some old untidy garments, and fastened around his waist a worn leather belt. On it he hung a short sword in a battered black-leather scabbard. From a locked drawer, smelling of moth-balls, he took out an old cloak and hood. They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weatherstained that their original colour could hardly be guessed: it might have been dark green. They were rather too large for him."~A Long-Expected Party

The smallest detail about the cloak made me smile. It's not just the fact this was the cloak Dwalin gave him, but how Tolkien reveals this information of being the same cloak which makes it that much better. Instead of being direct just writing "Bilbo grabbed a dark-green cloak Dwalin gave Bilbo many years ago." Tolkien describes it as almost like an "Easter egg" for readers of The Hobbit to discover. The cloak is like an Easter Egg: "locked up as if they were very precious"..."so patched and weatherstained that their original colour could ahrdly be guessed: it might have been dark green. They were rather too large for him."

"...and Bilbo was wearing a dark-green hood (a little weather-stained) and a dark-green cloak borrowed from Dwalin. They were too large for him, and he looked rather comic.~Roast Mutton

Also, as much as I get Frodo's frustration with how the hobbits (in particular Lobelia) reacted in a free-for-all frenzy the day after Bilbo's disappearance. I'm still rather fond of them (yes even Lobelia). As dreadful as the Sackville-Bagginses are in this chapter, it's almost like a soft, ultimately harmless form of troublemakers. They're not pleasant hobbits, but they're not evil and like Frodo you still don't want any evil penetrating the Shire.