Who's the oldest?

[the mortal elf]

I've got three contestants for the oldest person/creature in middle earth, and each has pretty solid evidence.

Tom Bombadil: he told the hobbits about the old forest, and basically told them that he could remember when they were "fathers and lords of all trees." He can remember what was there before the barrow downs. He remembers and talks about "ancient starlight, when only the elf sires were awake." When Frodo asks him "who are you master?" he replies "eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, Tom was here before the river and the trees. Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn..." and does that speech. Pretty firm evidence that he's the oldest, right?

Treebeard: Pippin felt that his eyes had "an enormous well behind them filled with ages of memory and long, slow, steady thinking." When Gandalf is talking to Theoden and asks him to go see Treebeard he says, "...and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things." Here, my friends, we have a contradiction. Tom Bombadil is the oldest, but Treebeard is the oldest too. How does that work. Next, to confuse you even more...

Elves: Treebeard gives them the most evidence. When he's recalling parts of the old lists to the hobbits he says: "Eldest of all, the elf children." Later on, he says, "Elves began it of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree talk." Okay, now I'm confused.

I haven't read the Silmarillion yet...*winces as all the fans who have the right to call themselves diehard gasp*...so all the answers may be in there. I promise, I will read it eventually, but right now I'm really curious. Who's the oldest?

[Evenstar1]

Well, I'm only part-way through the Sil, but you have brought up a valid, Tolkienesque contradiction. First of all, though, I can say with definite definitiveness that the Elves are not the oldest. They were the first of Illuvatar's children to be appear in Middle Earth, but there were other creatures there before them.

I don't think Bombadil falls into this category rightly, because he is called "fatherless" (by Gandalf?), which would indicate something other than having a creator, in my opinion, and there has been wide speculation that Bombadil is, perhaps, Illuvatar-embodied, and walking around Middle Earth.

Now, on to Treebeard: yes, he is said to be the oldest of all living things, but Fangorn (yeah, the forest) is also said to be the oldest of the old. So which is older? Treebeard or Fangorn? Or are they one and the same, in terms of "time" of origination? (I note "time" as such, because you must keep in mind that Eru and the Ainur existed outside of the dimension of Time until some of them left to become the Valar and entered into Time. Confused? Yeah, me too!)

[Iarwain]

Well, first of all, Treebeard is Fangorn, if you paid enough attention while reading Lotr, in the two towers gandalf explains that Fangorn is treebeard in elvish. and just for you information, excluding Tom Bombadil (people can say what they want about him), the Valar are by far the oldest creatures in middle earth, because the ents, including Treebeard were created as trees by Yavanna and "awoken" by Eru after Yavanna asked Manwé about who exactly would protect the trees from the dwarves whom her husband Aúle had created.

[Galorme]

In the histories Tom says he saw Melkor decend onto the world after being driven out, which makes him older than Treebeard and the Elves, as they awoke after the return of Morgoth.

[Arwen Imladris]

Maybe they are all the same age...

And what about dwarves? Weren't they actually created before elves? Weren't the ents created to save the trees from the dwarves?

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Arwen Imladris ]

[Amarie]

Tom Bombadil is older than the Elves and the Ents.
Evenstar1: It's been speculated that Tom is Eru embodied? Please direct me to a thread where I can read about this.

About the dwarves: They were created before the Elves were awakend. I have read nowhere that they were created before the elves where created. How long where the Elves created before they awoke? I do not know. I not read all of HoME though, and the answer may be there.
The Dwarves were up and going for a little while before the Elves where awakend. Eru jumped Aule about it, and put the dwarves to sleep, because he wanted his Children (Elves)to come first.
The shepherds were not made for the sole purpose of keeping the drwaves in line. They were to protect all trees against whatever might harm them.

[lathspell]

hey,

Evenstar1: Tolkien himself denied that Tom Bombadil was Iluvatar embodied, it was one of the few questions he would react to.

Aule indeed made the dwarves before Iluvatar had finished the Elves, yet the dwarves remained asleep and the Elves awakened first near lake Cuivienen. The Elves awoke the Ents by teaching them to speak and walk, as Treebeard points out in LotR. Tom was there before all this happened, and he is therefore oldest of M-e, yet the Ainur are eldest of Arda and it is not known if he is one of them.

P.S.: Evenstar... it were the elves who called him Iarwain ben-adar... eldest and fatherless

[Zackary1232]

from what i have been told the Elves are oldest race in middle earth

[*Varda*]

The Elves are the oldest race, yes.

But can we really say that Tom is of one specific race? Whatever he is, say he was only one of his kind, therefore he wouldn't be a race...if you know what I mean...I don't.

[Laurelin]

I say Tom Bombadil is the odlest thing, in the book he said that he was there when every thing happened.
smilies/cool.gif

[Supreme Leader]

Hi!
Just thought I'd add to the facts that Galadriel calls Treebeard "eldest" in LotR. But it's difficult deciding who's the eldest of Bombadil and Treebeard. I haven't read all that one can read about ME, so I don't know if the answers out there. Maybe they appeared at approximately the same time.

Supreme Leader smilies/smile.gif

[Rohirrim Lass]

Well, lathspell said what I was going to say, so I'll just sit back and be quiet now.

[merlilot]

My vote is for Tom, and I think he is an Ainur as well, so ...

*celebrates right to declare self die-hard* "Thank you mortal elf!"

[*Varda*]

I always had the impression that the Ents and the Elves were the same age.

When the children awake, the thought of Yavanna will awake also

Silmarillion, of Aule and Yavanna

Manwe was speaking to Yavanna of the Ents, the tree shepherds. Yavanna was worried no one would look after the trees, and so the Ents would awake when the elves awoke at Cuivienen. That's what I think anyway.

I'm still not sure about Tom though. Perhaps we'll never know.

[lindil]

Bombadil is a wild card, according to JRRT he fits in no category. So of all the known Children of Iluvatar [and aule] Elves are the oldest race. Ents [interms of JRRT's writings] came on the scene after everyone else, but out of all the living members of the races still alive in M-E at the close of the 3rd age, treebeard is the last 'original waker', in the sense that Durin the 1st is long gone, Galadriel is at least a 3rd if not 4th generation elf, Cirdan could possibly be a first generation elf, we do not know, but I assume [ in terms of 'elders'] that Galadriel and Gandalf knew what they were talking about.

So that makes Bombadil oldest but not oldest member of any race. treebeard gets the oldest 'creature' prize.

Unless Gandalf was wrong about Cirdan....

[Legolas]

Bombadil.

About Treebeard's knowledge, from Letter No. 153:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came.

[Evenstar1]

lathspell: thank you for clarifying that it was the elves, not Gandalf, who had called TB "fatherless." I would also like to clarify here that I, myself, did not say that Bombadil was the embodiment of Illuvatar: I merely pointed out that there has been widespread-speculation on the subject. Amarie: you can find discussion on this topic here (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html), here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000129), here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000321), here (http://www.barrowdowns.com/Themes_Bombadil.asp) and here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001459), to name a few. (Oh dear, I hope you weren't being sarcastic -- I'm not! smilies/rolleyes.gif ) And Iarwain, thank you for pointing out that "Fangorn" is Elvish for "Treebeard." But it should be noted that Fangorn is also the name of the ancient forest, populated mainly by Huorns and a few Ents (mainly Treebeard, himself).

[lathspell]

It seems that Cirdan was also older than Treebeard, for he was one of the first elves. He never went to Aman, but along with the Calaquendi and the Moriquendi he also awoke near lake Cuivienen in the beginning, or so the Silmarillion seems to point out.
In that way it seems that Treebeard was in no way eldest, except in his own race, the Onodrim.

greetings,
lathspell

[bombur]

First of all, to me it is pretty obvious that Tom is Maia, propably one of Yawannas who became a sort of natural spirit. (Maybe forgetting ones purpose in the same fashion, but moreso then Radagast.) What comes to being fatherless... I'm sorry to say this and must ask all the christians around here to be tolerant on us non-monotheists, but I believe Tolkien does not claim Eru to have created the Valar or Maiar. In the begining there was Eru the one and the Ainur were with him.

I think you might be overlooking the exact origins of Ents. If my memory serves me right, it said in Silmarillion something like this, when Yawanna went to Eru with her grief for trees: "... and spirits will go amongst the kelvar and olvar and take residence (form?) there... and as do the children awake, so does the thought of Yawanna." This hints that Ents (and the great eagles) are fundamentally different from the eleves, men and dwarwes.

I mean, maybe they are bit more related to maiar the the children of Iluvatar. In the begining, smaller, minor spirits then those of maiar took forms as shepards of Kelvar and Olvar. So when the song was sung, Tom was there singing, and maybe, somewhere in the dark edges there was the spirit to become treebeard, listening. He took the mortal form and has been Fangorn for so long time that he may have forgotten what he once was.


Janne Harju

[Legolas]

How do you conclude that Tom is a Maia?

[Birdland]

In Chapter 2 of the Silm, "Of Aulë and Yavanna", (I just love that chapter) Aulë creates the Dwarf-Kind, but is required by Eru to let them sleep until the coming of The One's first people, the Elves, are created.

It was the coming of the Dwarves that inspired Yavanna to request that she might create "The Shepherd of the Trees", in order to have some protection for the natural world of Middle-earth against the Dwarves. But it is not really clear if the Ents were already in place when Durin's Folk were finally awakened.

If they were, then they would be the second oldest, because Treebeard hints that Elves taught language to the Ents. Or they may have been "placed" there at the same time that Eru awakened the dwarves, which would still put them neck-to-neck with Dwarves for second place.

But I'd have to agree that Tom was there first, in spirit form. (no backing for that, just a hunch.) Hmmmmm, maybe ol' Tom was the "Shepherd of the Trees" that Yavanna was speaking of?

[bombur]

Yes, Birdland. I know the time of the cration of ents. I merely think of their NATURE. Were theese "spirits" referred to "concious" before "entering" kelvar and olvar?

And Legalos, you pose interresting question. I do not know why I think Tom is a maiar. I just have always considered it obvious. I'll see if I can find a quote or two to back it.


Janne Harju

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I apologise if any of this has been stated before; I don't have time to read all replies at the moment.
Gandalf states that Tom will be "Last as he was First"...he also states that Fangorn is the "oldest of all living things." This seeming discrepancy may be excused if we consider that Tom is not actually alive; that he is a Power or a Force of some kind.
As for the elves...I believe the Ents were, indeed, awakened by them, but also that the Ents were there first.
So in the end it all comes down to what you believe Tom was... smilies/wink.gif

[Mattius]

So, if the "shepherds of the trees" were created to deal with dwarf axes, surely then the first dwarves out age all of the 3 things on the list stated on the first post?

[Voralphion]

Tolkien does not claim Eru to have created the Valar or Maiar
I might be wrong as I don't have my book with me, but I thought it says in the Silmarillion that the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) were in fact offspring of Illuvatar's thought. This would say that Eru did in fact create the Valar & Maiar.

[Evenstar1]

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.
-- Ainulindale, first sentence


[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]

[Melichus]

Actually, I've been reading the Silmarillion, and aside from the Ainur/Valar/Maiar, the oldest ceatures in existence were either the Balrogs or the ancient creatures that had survived through the "spring of Arda".

Here are the possibilities:

Balrogs: They were created in secret by Melkor well before elves and they may have been created before dwarves and the creatures of Arda's "springtime".

The "spring of Arda" creatures: This is what the Silmarillion says: "But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the seas the great weeds, and on earth the shadows of great trees, and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong. This is also after the fall of the first "spring" Arda, so it could be contested whether Balrogs were created before or after this. you could argue that Tom Bombadil was one of these ancient creatures, though we can't be sure.

Dwarves: Technically, they were created before anything else, but did not awaken until the elves had been up and running for a while. We still don't know when exactly the Balrogs were created, but both dwarves and Balrogs are front-runners.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Melichus ]

[busybee]

Treebeard I think because Yavanna creates them after talking to Manwe about protecting the trees. But in the forests shall walk the shepherds of the trees.


[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: busybee ]

[lathspell]

The Ents were not created at that moment.

When the thought of Iluvatar awakens, so also will the thought of Yavanna.

Well, it ain't the actual quote, but it's saying the same thing.

When the Elves awoke, so also did the Ents, but this contradicts to what Treebeard told Merry and Pippin. For he told them that the Elves 'cured them from dumbness', so it can't be that they awoke at the same time.

Yet before all there were the Seven Fathers of Dwarves, so you might say that of all non-Ainur Durin is the eldest.

Well, it's quite a complicated thing to discuss, and has been discussed many times. I'll pop in again later.

greetings,
lathspell

[Galorme]

I would say that, in theory at least, that there are only really 2 ages of all things except men. 1) the moment Eru bought the Valar into being 2) Ea! Creation. From then everything, according to the music, was there. Like the elves, and the dwarves, and everything else, it was just waiting for them to wake up.

Sorry how horrible abstraction. Balrogs are Maia btw. And I would supose the oldest non Ainur thing would be whatever it was that Yavanna made first. I would guess it would be something simple like a flower. No sorry not a flower. Hmm like perhaps a sapling. Or maybe a grass.

[the mortal elf]

thanks guys. Sheesh, are you sure half of you didn't write the book? I bet you have whole chapters memorized smilies/smile.gif anyway, I started reading the Silmarillion, finally, and most of what you're saying seems to make sense. Thanks again!

[Rimbaud]

With regard to Treebeard:
...the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the sun upon this Middle Earth.

This sentence, when studied, reveal numerous qualifiers. Treebeard also says, "...and the trees are older than I am..." when referring to dark and deep areas of the forest. He is not in contention for the oldest living creature, merely the oldest 'living thing that still walks beneath the sun on this Middle Earth'. This suggests something to me of the ephemeral nature of Bombadil. The essence of his faery, for me, is that he does not truly belong or exist in 'this Middle Earth'.

My point, though, is that there are many older things than Treebeard in Middle Earth but they do not 'walk under the sun'. Bombadil is older but is unique in not truly existing on Middle Earth in quite the same way as anything else. Balrogs and first-born creatures and all sorts of Morgothian monsters are also older than Treebeard, IMHO.

[Evenstar1]

My point, though, is that there are many older things than Treebeard in Middle Earth but they do not 'walk under the sun'. Bombadil is older but is unique in not truly existing on Middle Earth in quite the same way as anything else. Balrogs and first-born creatures and all sorts of Morgothian monsters are also older than Treebeard, IMHO.

Interesting point, Rimbaud. It made me stop and consider whether spirits -- or those who could possibly be argued to be spirits -- (i.e. Ainur, Maiar, Bombadil, etc.) could legitimately have the label of "oldest," "older," etc. because these names imply the concept/restriction of Time. The Ainur, for instance, existed outside of the boundaries of Time, not entering into it until they descended to Middle Earth and became Valar. And even then, the concept of "death" could never have been applied to them, so would Time even have mattered (to them, at least)? Am I completely off-base with this line of reasoning?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So where are we and what have we got so far?

We seem to be agreeing that Bombadil doesn't count as a 'living thing'. Therefore Treebeard was the oldest at the time of the War of the Ring (according to Gandalf).

Did the Ents count as 'living' when they had not yet been awakened by the Elves?

[Rimbaud]

You miss my point. My express argument is that Treebeard is not the oldest but that Gandalf's statement is still accurate. Ignoring those of ex-Arda origins, ie. Maiar such as Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron, the oldest creatures dwelt deep below the earth and in other dark places.

[Bêthberry]

This suggests something to me of the ephemeral nature of Bombadil. The essence of his faery, for me, is that he does not truly belong or exist in 'this Middle Earth'.


What of the idea that Tom is the original theme of Eru,

And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music...Illúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme...

Tom's faerie elements seem similar to the music which shall be sung after the end of days, ...take Being in the moment of their utterance

At least, this is how I played the Bombadils some months ago in an RPG. Tom is Arda as it was meant to be before Melkor's discord arose. Nar has also argued this point here last week.

Bethberry

[GildorInglorion]

Trees and flower were creatd before the elves right? Maybe the first elves awoke a tree into tree-beard. So in one may he is older then the elves, and in another not. In any case, no now living elf is as old as him.

I agree that Bombadil is like outside everything, he doesn't connect with any other stories. I've heard someone suggesting he should be the reader of the book. So I can agrre with treebeard as the oldest in Arda, even if Bombadil existed before him.

[Helkasir]

I think Bombadil is eldest. He might actually be a run away vala, in my opinion. I mean, his whole singing thing... it fits right in with the creation of Ea.

[GildorInglorion]

Bombadill as essentially a vala, that's an interesting idea.
I have always felt it's a bit strange that there are eight male and 7 female vala (Melkor was male right)
Maybe Melkor was to be "The king" and below him it should be 7-7. In this case Bombadil Should not be a vala.
Maybe it is one of the already known Vala, perhaps Yavanna, dwelling in middle earth.
Once upon a time Oröme lived in ME with the elves, so I don't think it's entirely impossible.

[Helkasir]

the only thing that perturbed me about bobamdil is that He had the power to "Sing." Tolkien was alludin to something when he had all the crap about powerful music and iluvatar. Think about it. Even Luthien, a really powerful person, sang most of that which was powerful. She and Sauron had their own contest. For Bombadil to be powerful with his singing, it's possible that he's a vala. And, for another thing, the ring has no power over him, but even the most powerful have problems with it.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Helkasir ]

[lathspell]

The possibility that Bombadil is highly unlikely. There were only 14 (for Mogoth was no longer counted among them) and all of them are 'in the West that is Forgotten'. It says in the Silmarillion that Ulmo was the last of the Valar to go. Nowhere it is said that one of them ever came back, so that rules out the possibility that he was Valar. Personally I find the possibility of Maiar far more believable.

Trees and Flowers? Do we take these into consideration as well? I always thought this was for intelligent beings. I saw above that it was quite agreed that Bombadil and other spirits and Ainur should be left out of this discussion. Than shouldn't this be for intelligent non-(possible) Ainur beings.

In that case I think Rimbaud has made a very good point about the foul things in the deep places of the World. I suddenly remembered good old Shelob smilies/wink.gif. Does anyone know how old she is? I don't have the Silmarillion here, so I don't know when it was that she ran away from the Balrogs in Lammoth. Isn't it said as well that she had Children already when she lived in Avatar, before the attack on Valinor when the Trees were destroyed.

Is that is so, are they the oldest intelligent non-Ainur in Arda??

greetings,
lathspell

[lathspell]

The possibility that Bombadil is highly unlikely.

That should of course be: The possibility thatBonbadil is Valar is highly unlikely.

Sorry for the inconvenience!

greetings once more,
lathspell

[Lush]

Dude, burrahobbit answered the Bombadil question ages ago. Right here. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001272)

[GildorInglorion]

Shelob should be pretty old, but she is just some kind of children of Ungoliant, the first giant spider that almost killed Morgoth and fled the Balrogs.
Fangorn must be older.

I think it's not beyond any reasonable doubt that Ungoliant ever died, but an implication that she in hunger ate herself!

And Bombadil a vala, no, I agree, that seems to far-fetched (is that an english word???, I mean something like very speculative...). The quote that Ulmo was the last to leave pretty much makes the case.

[Evenstar1]

that seems to far-fetched (is that an english word???,
Yes, GildorInglorion, that is an expression (in American, if not also British English), and you used it correctly. Good job! (I envy those of you who can speak more than one language -- and well, too!)

Back to topic: At the time of the War of the Ring, was Galadriel, then, the oldest of all
the Elves of ME? She would have been older than Shelob, too, right? But not older than Rimbaud's foul things that live in the deep, dark places. (Okay, not Rimbaud's foul things, but Rimbaud was the one who brought this to our attention.) smilies/wink.gif

[lathspell]

Fangorn must be older.

Why?
Ungoliant is, as I see it, older then the Elves. It's in a way the same category as Tom Bombadil. I mean:
- we do not know what she rightly is. Yes, I know, a Giant Spider, but is that all?
- we do not know when she was 'born' or 'created'
- we do not know what happened to her after she fled from the Balrogs

In fact we do not know anything for sure, except that she participated in the attack on Valinor in the First Age, and the tale around it. She may have spawned other Children in Avatar long before Shelob. I asked if that is mentioned in the Sil, for if it is, than these are some of the foul things Rimbaud means, I guess.

greetings,
lathspell

[Helkasir]

I think the maiar is a better idea too. After, Melian had her own little possive fits doriath, never having left the land, and protecting with her little girdle thing.... All I know is that she was protector of doriath as Bombadil the withywindle.

Is there any chance that Melian could BE goldberry?

[lathspell]

I don't think so, Helkasir.

It is said in the Silmarillion that Melian, after the destruction of Doriath, went back to Valinor and, I believe, dwelt there in the woods of Lorien.

greetings,
lathspell

[Laivine]

After having read burrahobbits answer to what Tom Bombadil is, I agree. It makes perfect sense.

[Supreme Leader]

At the time of the War of the Ring, was Galadriel, then, the oldest of all the Elves of ME? She would have been older than Shelob, too, right? But not older than Rimbaud's foul things that live in the deep, dark places.

No, Galadriel wasn't the eldest, Cirdan was. Galadriel was born in the west, while Cirdan awoke beside Cuivinen (sp?) but abandoned the march to Valinor...

[Legolas]

Actually Tolkien told us who/what Tom was, long before burrahobbit was born. If you don't take Tolkien's word, good luck.

[Melichus]

No, Galadriel wasn't the eldest, Cirdan was. Galadriel was born in the west, while Cirdan awoke beside Cuivinen (sp?) but abandoned the march to Valinor...

I got the impression that Ingwe, Finwe, and Olwe were the oldest of the elves--or were they just the leaders of the group that Cirdan was a part of? I also stand by my theory that Bombadil was one of the "old creatures dark and strong" that had lasted through the spring of Arda. Of course, his personality must have improved greatly when the times changed a bit...

Also, were the Balrogs Maiar or not? If not, I think they were the oldest non-Maiar/Valar creatures of Arda, since they were created secretly by Morgoth in the depths of Utumno very early on.

Also, how do make the little accents and umlauts over letters?

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Melichus ]

[lathspell]

the Balrogs were Maiar. Morgoth couldn't create things. Only could he corrupt things.

I agree with you, Legalos.

[GildorInglorion]

Great post by Burrahobbit, makes sense. But apart from Bombadill.

I believe Ungoliant was "born" before the first elves, but she is most likely dead. And Ungoliants children could not be older than for example Cirdan. When Ungoliant fled Morgoth's Balrogs, and went to Ered Gorgoroth to mate with other spiders, Cirdan already lived.

But what about the spiders that were fathers of Unoliants children, could any of them still have been around in the fourth age?

In my opinion Cirdan had no father and COULD be as (or almost as) old as Finwë, Elwë and Ingwë. But then he should be older than Fangorn, which he is not accordin to LOTR.
This should suggest that all the "Parentless" (first) elves didn''t wake up at the same time.

There is also an interesting passage in Silmarillion that I find very hard to understand; When Aulë tells Yavanna of the dwarves, Yavanna realises that her beloved trees will be cut down. She talks to Manwë and he tells her about spirits that will live in the trees (the ents). He also talkes about the time when these will inhabit the trees, but I find it confusing. Does anyone understand this better?

[Loonie]

Alright. Let's get some things down.
nullRealize that these conclusions are based only on what I've read in these posts.
Tom Bombadil, although decided unimportant to this topic, is described by burrahobbit as the song which is Arda. Therefore, rather than the oldest on Arda, he is Arda.

Balrogs are corrupted Maia.

Treebeard, while not necessarily the oldest being, is the oldest Firstborn still around ME.

Ok. Question, though, did anyone answer the mystery of Shelob? I have not read HoME, are there answers there?

Thanks for your time...

[lathspell]

Do you mean this:

'When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also...'

It states that when the Children of Iluvatar (in this case the Elves) awake, the Ents will awake as well.

hmm... this brings a new question to my mind, but I'll have to read the 'Treebeard'-chapter before I post it.

greetings,
lathspell

[Legolas]

There is nothing that states Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen.

Also, it would appear many of you skipped over my first post here...

Tolkien's words about Treebeard's knowledge, from Letter No. 153:

Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came.

Thus, Treebeard's comments on the matter cannot be relied upon. His statements are true as far as he knows, but he does not know all, and we cannot accept all his comments as truth.

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[lathspell]

How do we know if he says things there he doesn't know? Maybe all things he says are true, because he knows those things.
Other things that the Wise know, maybe unknown to him, but if he doesn't know about them he can't speak about it.
I think Treebeard only spoke about things he rightly knew, and left other matters to other persons.

greetings,
lathspell

[Legolas]

He does tell things the best he knows how, but they are not always truthful. It still means we cannot wholly trust what he says.

His song supposedly names all the free peoples, yet he does not know hobbits exist, nor does he know wizards are more than men. Therefore, he obviously would not know of their origins, and leaves the possibility of him not knowing of another race - the hobbits or some other creature could still be older than he is. One must then think - does he know of Tom Bombadil? Seems he wouldn't, since he lives so close to the hobbits, far from Fangorn.

Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses:

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Matthew2754]

I believe JRR left Bombadil's origin a mystery and should be left there. Any speculation is just pointless guessing, and unless some new writing of Tolkien's is found, we cannot know

[Saurreg]

Interesting thread.

I think the dwarves were older than the ents. It was only after Aule created the seven fathers of the dwarves did Yavanna approach Manwe and asked for assurance for the protection of the trees. The dwarves were put into deep sleep but they were still alive.

I think the oldest creatures on Middle Eaeth aside from the Ainur and Maia (Balrogs were Maia weren't they?) were the creatures that Morgoth corrupted/created before the stars were made.

As for elves teaching Ents how to speak, I won't discount the possiblity that Ents were around longer than elves, but learned from them how to speak.

[XC]

Birdland, "shepherds of the trees" are the ents smilies/evil.gif smilies/evil.gif smilies/evil.gif smilies/evil.gif smilies/evil.gif

[tangerine]

Here are the possibilities:

Balrogs: They were created in secret by Melkor well before elves and they may have been created before dwarves and the creatures of Arda's "springtime".



The balrogs were ainu who sided w/ melkor in the beginning; remeber how in Moria Gandalf said that he had met his equal? also, it siad in the silm that Melkor spent all his power in hate, until he was no longer able to create, onlymimic the work of others (i.e. orcs)
Tom was probably a maia-after all, melian, the istari, and sauron were maia, but were still seen by men and elves as very powerful.

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: tangerine ]

[tangerine]

Also, its mentioned that during the Song, Ungoliant sided with Melkor, but went off on her own in Arda and took aspider form.

[Helkahothion]

I don't really know for shure but I think it is treebeard. Because Galadriel called him the oldest, but then you have Tom Bombardil. Well think of it this way. If he is the oldest then his wife must be the oldest too and they never mention that so i'd place my money on treebeard.
________
Easy Vape Vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/)

[Legolas]

tangerine...power is not basis enough for classification as a Maia.

For more information, refer to uh.. wots a maiar ???/ (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002023)

[*Varda*]

If he is the oldest then his wife must be the oldest too

Helkahothion, why must this be the case? Why are you assuming his wife is exactly the same age as him?

Varda

[GildorInglorion]

I'm rereading LOTR an find something interesting in TTT, when Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli about his adventures with the balrog.

"Far, far below the deepest delving of the dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. "

[Jurion]

Bombadil: How can Bombadil be a Maia? The Ring has no power over him, but it clearly has power over both Gandalf and Sauron, who are both Maia. If Bombadil was a Maia wouldn't it be logical that the Ring would have power over him as well.

The Ents: The Ents are the oldest living things, they were just normal trees before the elves taught them how to speak and walk. They are older than the elves, because trees did exist before the elves did, but they are in a way younger than the elves because they couldn't speak.

[Galorme]

Jurion nononono. The ents were a different race totally, spirits sent from Eru to guard the growing things from his children, taking Tree form. Tom couldn't be a Maia, who would he serve? He COULD be a Umaia or an Ainur, but he isn't. He is something very different, not from ME or Ea, from somewhere totally different, a totally different story, where he once got eaten by a badger (just saying that to set the scene). He was put into LoTRs to fill a vital hole: the tree hugging, fun loving fat man of course! Oh yeah Oldest non-ainur Speaking being, if Treebeard is a first generation ent then he will be the same age as the oldest elves, and if same with Cirdan (first generation Elf that is).

[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Seifer A. Sephiroth]

I think in the Silmarillion that the Dwarves were the first born. If I read it correctly. They were just put back to sleep till the time came for them to wake and make their appreance known.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Bombadil is the eldest, as is said. And I do not think that he's an ainu at all, but some enigma - maybe that embodiment of Arda, as burrahobbit suggested? Or some enigma, some strange spirit. Anyways, not an ainu. I think. Eru he is not, as there is no embodiment of Eru in Eä. Treebeard simply cannot be the oldest, because the ents awoke at the same time as elves. Even if he would have been alive as a tree before that, he can't be the oldest, as the trees weren't created in the beginning.

Well, Eru probably is the oldest, but he's not in Arda..

[Noxomanus]

I think they merely mean,he's the oldest remaining being in ME.Meaning,he's one of the first Ents to awake and there are no Elves remaining in ME that are older than him.
dunno about Bombadil...

[Ainaserkewen]

Hey, maybe Tom is a valar or a Maiar or one of them created him to guard the forest. I think he is the oldest that still walks, but the ents were put on middle earth after it was created but before the elves woke up, to shepeard the forests. I'm only part way through the sil too, but I'm gettin there.

[Iarwain Ben-adar]

Good to see you all and see this topic! I haven't been around here in over a year.

GildorInglorion has made I point that I thought of after reading the first couple of posts. That point has barely been acknowledged, so it should be repeated.

One may be "eldest" without being "eldest sentient".

Trees were around before Elves, we know that. Then the Elves went around awakening the trees, apparently creating Ents. So Treebeard is older than any Elf, even Cirdan, when you count his years as a tree. (Trees, after all, are alive, if not sentient.) But, as a sentient being, Treebeard is younger than the first-awoken Elves.

As for Bombadil, he is as Tolkien stated: An enigma. Fun to speculate about, no doubt; but, in the end, an enigma.

[Iarwain]

Yes, I think that age is all a matter of perspective. If you include Iarwain despite his enigmatic nature, he will be eldest, merely because it is agreed to be so by the White Counsel and Bombadil himself. Also, one must consider the Maiar living in Middle-Earth, Radagast was most likely older than Treebeard, and definately older than any elves.

Iarwain

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bump

[HerenIstarion]

Well than, I'll give you a hand and update the link provided by Lush in Post #43 Derry Dol, Indeed (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=94) (or that is the place I believe the link should lead to)

[bilbo_baggins]

Well to embody the replies:

Tom Bombadil is another Ainur (definition of Ainur being a creation of Eru) and he is the oldest (I got this from burrahobbit's post). But not the oldest Non-Valar/Maiar.

Ents and Elves are equal in age, for the Entian spirits were sent to inhabit the special tree carriers and awaken at the time of Awakening (Elvish awakening) and they later learned to speak from the Elves. Learning to speak does not mean they were less mature than the Elves. Is it not said that the Wise hold their tongue, while the foolish speak their folly plainly?

The Dwarves had a preawakening existence, for they cringed at the impending destruction by Aule's hammer. So technically, they are older than the Elves. But were the Entian spirits alive before they were sent to inhabit trees? That's the question; and it boils down to:

Tom Bombadil is older than anything else on Arda, because he IS Ea. Dwarves sorta/kinda outage Elves, but not really. Elves and Ents awaken at the same time and are equal in power. Ungoliant is a Maia, I believe (I can't know for sure).

So if you like to pick nits, "Go Dwarves!"

If you hate technicalities, "Go Elves!" (Ents are sort of like ethereal spirits and come from Eru directly, not like the Elves)

[Beleg]

Well, I would just like some enlightenment on the question.

People answer Galadriel for example. Before Galadriel (and Elves more generally) were other beings like the Valar. Yet, the Valar left Middle-Earth. So, the question is, who is the oldest on Middle-Earth (excluding the Valar but not Tom Bombadil). In this case, yes Galadriel could be the oldest (it is an example as the existence of Bombadil and Fangorn makes this example unlikely)

Or, is it about to discuss who's the oldest since the creation of Arda? I think the oldest are the Ainur without any doubt from that point of view.

If it's to guess who's the oldest being left on ME (so, after the departure of the Valar), maybe we can consider that Sauron is very old. He was one of the Maiar and can be even older than Galadriel.

The Eagles can be very old as well, it is said in the chapter II of the silmarillion:
Manwë speaking to Yavanna Kementari: "Cela aussi reviendra, au gré d'Iluvatar, et avant l'éveil des Enfants les Aigles des Seigneurs de l'Ouest s'élèveront à nouveau comme le vent" (in substance: the Eagles will rise again before the awakening of the children)


Anyway, the debate on Bombadil and Fangorn allows to say that they are maybe one of the few oldest beings left on ME, and maybe Fangorn and the Old Forest were created right after the coming of the Valar (and Bombadil was one of the Maiar who were with them).

I don't think for myself that we will ever be sure who is the oldest between Fangorn and Bombadil. So, i will answer stupidly and in an obvious way: the Ainur are the oldest. (I don't take part in this Bombadil debate.)
Did you get my point?

[Morsul the Dark]

well lets see hears a thought for you all to ponder on or laugh at (its meant to be humorous) Gandalf was a pretty old dude in his own right so heres the thing if he were ...hold on i want to word this right....ok...because he died and came back does he have to start over at one or is he still old? :p

my money is on treebeard...gandalf doesnt exaggerate and he knows tom so its not like he blindly says treebeard is the oldest...we of course must assume we are talking about phytsicly the oldest bombadil is essentially a spirit so its unfair to try him against a physical being

[Garulf]

As far as I can make it out, this is the situation:

1. Elves are the Eldest Children, the First-Born. They were supposed to be first.
2. Aule made Dwarves and awoke them before the Elves were woken (even though the Elves may well have been created before this, just not awake).
3. Yavanna, in response to Aule's creation of the Dwarves, requests that Manwe give her a way of protecting her creations - the trees. Therefore Manwe sends spirits(?) to embody certain trees, who will eventually awake as Ents.
4. Tom Bombadil: an enigma. I am inclined to believe that Tom is the Flame Imperishable, although that's more of a recent revelation and has yet to be discussed (see "Who or What is Tom Bombadil?").

From this situation our conclusions rest on a number of further assumptions:
1. If something is created (Elves, Ents, etc.) and not yet awake, does it still possess life?
2. Furthermore, can the spirits sent to embody the Ents be considered alive before the Elves actually awake the trees themselves?
3. Is Tom actually the Flame Imperishable, or is this just another crackpot theory?

In my opinion, when operating within the context of the entire universe (not just Arda), Elves cannot strictly be considered the oldest, since they only awoke after the Dwarves did and also after the spirits that would eventually become Ents were brought into being. Furthermore, all of this occurs well after Tom (presumably) was sent to fill the Void. However, since we are discussing this in the context of Arda itself our order changes slightly:

1. Tom Bombadil remains first. Even if he is not the Flame, but Ea itself (or a spirit tied up with Ea), he would still be first.
2. The Elves would then be second. They were the first of Illuvatur's children to awake in Middle-Earth.
3. The Ents, although their spirits existed before the Elves, cannot be considered to be any different from other trees (and therefore do not exist as a seperate sentient "race") until the Elves wake them up and teach them language. One can argue that they do count as being older than Elves, since they were presumably speaking their "tree language" before technically awaking, however that argument stretches the definition of "race" in Middle-Earth terms (i.e. by that logic all trees would count as a "race", and neccesarily all other creatures would belong to their own respective races).
4. The order in which Dwarves and Men enter the picture is a toss-up. The Elves knew about Dwarves before they knew about Men, but that is not to say that Dwarves existed before Men.

All of these conclusions operate on the answer to a very complicated and controversial question of, what defines life? Is a being alive when it is created or when it is woken? (I mean, just look at the debate over abortion). Therefore all of these points can be argued, however I think this explanation makes the most sense.

[Bêthberry]

I've got three contestants for the oldest person/creature in middle earth, and each has pretty solid evidence.

Who's the oldest?

Tolkien was in Middle-earth before anyone else, so my money's on him being the oldest Middle-earthling.