A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma

[Elianna]

You guys think that it's a valid point, no matter how unlikely, that Gríma was just as such under Saruman's control as Théoden was, and so wasn't really bad at all?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Possibly. Theoden did not commit acts as evil as Grima did commit, but then Theoden was much stronger than Grima (as well as being 'further away' from Saruman).

Though, would a good person have been swayed so much by Saruman? Was not Grima already wicked?

[Amanaduial the archer]

It could be that Grima, like all men, was simply weak, and that the power of trhe ring was too much for him - the temptation of everything it could promise, especially when times were hard and uncertain for men. Another arguement in Grima's favour could be that he had seen Saruman's power at work on Theoden - he may have been in fear of it, as he had seen it at very close quarters, and so was in no doubt of what it could do and to what extent.

However, I don't think this is the whole story: mainly, Grima was probably just out for what he could get - and he didn't really care for what got in his way. I don't think this can merely be attributed to the 'weakness of men' which is mentioned so often by the elves - this is something much closer to home. Mainly, I think Grima was just too selfish - unlike the other Men in the story, he didn't resist the ring, he was working with it. But when things stopped going his way, he pleaded that he had merely been under it's power, asking that the Kings would take him in - basically, he would have changed his allegiance in a second. He was always, it seems to me, just out for what he could get.

[gorthaur_cruel]

This is my view of what Wormtongue's work was.

He was to feed Theoden some poison-like things that kept him weak and frail(I was rather skeptical about the poisonous drugs, but Tolkien confirmed this in one of his letters). Like any other old men feeling "old", Theoden would then not be willing to take care of all the small matters of his kingdom, being tired. Wormtongue knew this, and so approached the king with sweet words. Most people like words that praise you, however false it may be. Wormtongue probably did do some things of service, at first, to gain Theoden's trust.

He then used his men to keep all reports of happenings from reaching Theoden, or twisting them with his own little lies. He sent news of what was happening to Saruman. Then, he told Theoden that Eomer was plotting against Theodred for heirship(confirmed in Unfinished Tales). Theoden, not knowing any better and trusting Wormtongue too much, would have believed this. Grima would've kept a lot of Eomer's victories secret from Theoden, or belittled them while exaggerating his defeats. Gandalf then came and exposed Theoden to the outer air, making him realise that he was not as old and weak as Grima made him out to be. Wormtnogue did seem rather overprotective, didn't he? Gandalf helped Theoden realise that things were not as bad as they seemed under Wormtongue's lies. Notice how Theoden didn't really turn on Grima as suddenly as in the film. He still couldn't shake off his years of trust for Grima. So he gave Wormtongue a chance of aiding him, which Wormtongue denied. Even so, Theoden remarks that he misses Grima later on.

So, to answer your question, Theoden was manipulated by Wormtongue. Wormtongue was acting of his own free will, and as Gandalf points out, his reward was to be Eowyn. Saruman did not manipulate him, but rather promised him rewards. And Theoden was never under Saruman's "control", not in the books. There is no exorcism in the books, but rather wise words by Gandalf.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I think that Grima didn't appreciate honour nor sincerity but was very fascinated by power and was eager to rule. That doesn't instantly make him a bad person but yet too easily seduced by slight chances to rise in rank. To Saruman that kind of people would have been too easy to brainwash. Saruman used Grima to gain his own goals but I tend to think that Grima acted willingly and knowing the cosequences.

In the book, after Isengard had been defeated and Saruman and Grima were just two vagabonds, Grima told that he hated Saruman and yet he didn't leave him. He didn't know how to live without his master anymore for sure a wizard had been a mighty ally before things started to go bad for them.
So, to the question: basically yes, that's possible.

[shia'tan]

I think Grima just started out as someone who saw an advantage allying himself with the stroger power of Saruman, and then he was in it for himself - how can I best profit from the situation. I did not think that Grima was evil to start with, he was just corrupted by power and greed. When he had been turned out of Edoras and returned to Saruman, his will was all but broken and at this point he became a creature of Saruman, yet retaining enough of his personality to regail against the treatment he endured but not strong enough to escape.

[Son of Númenor]

Wormtongue is an interesting character, in that he is unlike most other evil beings in Middle-earth. He is not desirous of omnipotence, as are Melkor, Sauron and Saruman. He was not forcibly subverted to the will of a powerful evil being, like the orcs were. He is more like Sharkey's ruffians, Sauron's mercernaries and even Melkor's Balrogs, in that he is corrupted (not by torture, like the orcs, but by persuasion and false promises) to the service of a true evil, and is mainly in it for personal gain. I think Tolkien saw a distinction between characters like Master Wormtongue and the 'greater' evils. Grima, I think, was still capable of repentance, and he did repent, to an extent, in killing Saruman. I do not think he was ever wholly 'fallen', and I do not see why he could not have loved Eowyn. He may have lusted after her, but lust does not necessarily supersede true affection. Perhaps he was greatly conflicted: wanting her for himself, wanting her to be happy, and being ensnared by Saruman, from whose scheme he could no longer escape and, being corrupt, no longer had a will to try. Sounds like quite a sad predicament.

[Lhunardawen]

There seems to be a lot of Grima threads these days...

The act of Grima killing Saruman in The Scouring of the Shire is rather ambiguous. It could be that he already had the will to be free from the evil in which he had been ensnared by Saruman, and killed him so that he could be altogether released from his bondage to evil. But on the other hand, he could be tired of being Saruman's underdog and killed him so he could be his own master, possibly not aware of the fact that he could be killed by the hobbits in doing so.

It was probably the first idea that moved him to kill Saruman. Frodo was offering him a way out, and he probably felt he could not accept that way with Saruman still around. Then again, seeing that he tried to run away after killing him, it could be the latter idea. All the same, his death was grievous, for while he is yet alive there is a chance for him to finally turn his back from evil.

[Encaitare]

"There seems to be a lot of Grima threads these days..." -- Lhunardawen

And I like it! Hah... does my avatar give ya a clue? ;)

Yes, it's probably too sympathetic (although the sneaky guy has permeated my mind and I've corrupted my friend as well into thinking he's awesome... man, he does his job well!) but he's such a fun character to analyze. I like Gorthaur_Cruel's take on him. Somehow I've come to think that he had a really lousy childhood (it's the Freud in me speaking!) and has just grown up quite bitter towards everyone.

He probably fell victim to Saruman, a) because the wizard was noted to have great powers of persuasion and an enchanting voice, and b) because he was promised wealth and the woman he desired (I won't go into the love/lust bit here!). As others have already stated, Men are generally weak and power-hungry, and while I don't think that Grima wanted to be king of Rohan or anything (although he was as good as king for some time), it's likely that he wouldn't mind having a bit of influence and power for himself.

[Silver Dragon]

Um, I have some questions about some of the answers, sorry...
He was to feed Theoden some poison-like things that kept him weak and frail(I was rather skeptical about the poisonous drugs, but Tolkien confirmed this in one of his letters).
Could someone tell me where to find these? And also...
He is more like Sharkey's ruffians, Sauron's mercernaries and even Melkor's Balrogs, in that he is corrupted (not by torture, like the orcs, but by persuasion and false promises) to the service of a true evil, and is mainly in it for personal gain.
Weren't the Balrogs created to serve Morgoth? Did they have to be seduced/persuaded to evil? Or weren't they just inherently sided with darkness? I don't remember his other creatures, dragons and the like, doing anything else...and as for Wormtounge...was it really still possible for him to repent? In many stories, as they say "a man can't possibly be so evil as to be unable to repent"...but in Tolkien, the only instance I've read of in which a creature/servant of darkness "saw the light" was when Sauron/Gorthaur appealed to Eonwe after the fall of Thangorodrim, and it's still debatable as to whether or not he truly repented. He certainly didn't try to seek Manwe's good favors when told to, did he?

[Son of Númenor]

Weren't the Balrogs created to serve Morgoth? Did they have to be seduced/persuaded to evil?They were originally Maiar. Melkor seduced and corrupted them.

[Elianna]

and as for Wormtounge...was it really still possible for him to repent?

I think it was. I'm thinking that Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, Balrogs and such were all Maiar (Vala, in the case of Morgoth), and so repentence works differently for them (if at all). But Gríma is a Man, which as many have pointed out, is a very corruptable race. Knowing this, the Powers that be would provide an easier way to forgiveness for Men: you just ask, and try to do better next time.

Come on, have we learned nothing of pity or mercy from reading Tolkien?

[Boromir88]

Rebels, Elianna you got it down I just felt like adding the rebel part lol.

[Silver Dragon]

But are there other examples of repentance in Tolkien? Mercy/pity yes...but whole-hearted repentance? In the Silmarillion Maeglin was supposed to have repented the ways of his father and all but in the end he wound up betraying Gondolin to Morgoth making him if anything worse than the dark elf Eol.

[Encaitare]

I can't really think of anything offhand, except for maybe the Dead Men of Dunharrow, since originally they refused to aid Gondor and then they realized that the only way to end their curse was to help Gondor out in the war. However, I don't think this is really repentance, just a means to finally get to rest.

Since I can't think of any example of true repentance, I'm just going to say that even though Grima didn't truly repent, per se, he and most others who have been corrupted had the potential to repent. I think that his killing of Saruman showed that he wasn't entirely evil, as has been suggested by a few.

[headlessmonk]

Interesting. I like this idea. I still think he's evil, by all means ;) but I think that's a good idea. Nice thinking.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Encataire:
"I can't think of any example of true repentance"
___________________
Maedhros several times shows specific instances of repentence, but granted can't go the whole nine yards because of his slavish adherence to his oath.

Grima at the end seems to really be sick of being a bad guy and what he's done and may wish to repent, which makes the last evil deed of Saruman all the worse.

" 'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.' Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. Saruman turned. 'No evil?' he cackled.".....

[Encaitare]

Exactly, the examples of Maedhros and Grima are pretty much what I was talking about. They may want to repent, and they may show signs of this desire, but they don't follow through with it all the way.

Yeah, Saruman was quite evil to poor Grima there...

[Elianna]

Saruman says he goes out and looks at the stars. "Even when he sneaks out at night it is only to look at the stars." Hmmm, looking at the stars...what a very Elvish thing to do. Surely, with the Elves being so famously enthralled by the stars, Tolkien wouldn't have said this about Gríma without cause, or something behind it.

The other thing is actually nothing to do with the book, but the movie. Look at Gríma's knife. Leaf shaped blade, a very graceful looking weapon. Fits the movie's motifs of Elvish blades.

[Encaitare]

I got the impression that Saruman was saying that sarcastically:

'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.'

Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. Saruman turned. 'No evil?' he cackled. 'Oh no! Even when he sneaks out at night it is only to look at the stars.'

It seemed to me that Saruman was mocking what Frodo said, suggesting that when Grima sneaked out at night it was not at all to look at the stars, but to do eviller things. He's probably lying and just making a bogus claim to belittle Grima even further, like he does when he suggests that he ate Lotho... I hope that he was lying then, at the very least! :eek:

[Boromir88]

Since I can't think of any example of true repentance
I would say Boromir is a classic example of "true repentance..."

In Anglo-Norman mythology there was this "Law of Compensation." A person committed a wrong act, and he must do certain things in order to regain his repentance...

1. He must tell all his sins. This was believed that if someone truly wanted to
"repent" then he must spill out his sins, not just ask for forgiveness.
2. He must ask for repentance.
3. He must pay gold, or he could sacrifice his life.

Looking at Boromir's final days he does all this. After he tries to take the Ring from Frodo, and ruin all, we have him at the end with Aragorn...

1. Tell his sins- "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said.

2. Repentance- "I am Sorry. I have paid.

3. One could pay gold to "compensate" for their sins, but since I doubt Boromir has any gold, he does the other thing that was believed would "compensate" yourself Sacrificing your life- He does so to attempt to save Merry and Pippin.

The final stage is the priest/holy man must declare the man's acts as forgiven. Aragorn, a symbol of this does so.
"No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. "You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!"

I think Boromir's situation is the clearest act of repentance I have come across in Tolkien.

[Encaitare]

Well said, RepentedOne88. ;) I stand corrected.

[Elianna]

Eh, I figured that Saruman was agreeing with Frodo at first, basically saying, "Yeah, you're right, Worm's harmless. But there was that time with Lotho..."

Oh well, if Encaitare is the one shooting down my ideas, might as well give up. I'll go to my dark corner and play with my masks now...

Good show about Boromir, Boromir88, by the way.

[Encaitare]

Heh, sorry, Eli. Doesn't mean I love Grima any less -- and definitely don't give up if you have something more to say!

[Essex]

I put it to you that Grima is one of the most Evil characters in the WHOLE trilogy.

HE shows no loyalty to ANYONE. He is out totally for personal gain throughout the book. He looks after number one to the detriment of everything else.

He conspires to ruin Theoden because he sees that Saruman is the person in strength, and would probably therefore win. But this doesn't mean Grima's ready to stay loyal to Saruman when he realises the wizard may be beaten.

i.e. when confronted by the witch king (in unfinished tales) he is quick to betray Saruman. Also, when realising that Saruman is finished in the Shire he also shows betrayal by killing Saruman himself.

When offered the chance of redemption by Frodo he does not take it. He cannot see any gain from staying with the hobbits. Indeed, in the Evilness of his character he probably doesn't realise that frodo's plea is truthful. When you are that evil, you may not believe another character can be that merciful. I say he thought this was a trick by the hobbit to capture him, and he decided to take his own chances by running.

Fair point from Elianna on, have we learned nothing of pity or mercy from reading Tolkien?Absolutely, to me pity and mercy are amongst the main themes of the book. But the person being shown mercy MUST ACCEPT THAT MERCY. It's a two way street. Gollum didn't accept Frodo's mercy and look what happened to him. The same goes for Grima.

[Lalwendë]

My take on Grima.

This is a really interesting thread! I’ve had quite a few thoughts about the nature of Grima lately, and I’ll be interested to hear what other ‘Downers might think, so here goes…

Who is he? His role is something of a ‘clerk’ or adviser, and we must assume that even in Rohan such people were needed to ensure the smooth running of the country. The king would no doubt have gathered tithes, or else had to ensure that some system of ‘military service’ (is this more properly termed ‘tribute’?) was running within his country. Rohan seems to be based on models of Anglo Saxon society, where personal advisers to the monarch would most likely be drawn from nobility or military. Grima is not a military man, so we must assume he is from the nobility if he is to have gained such privileged access to his King.

There is textual evidence that Grima is a man of Rohan, and that he had some status to begin with, as his lineage is named. The question is, would it be considered higher status in Rohan to be a horseman or to be a ‘clerk’? If the former, then Grima may have ended up in such a post either through superior intelligence or because he was not strong or skilled enough to excel as a horseman. Either of these would have a bearing on his personality. If it was that he was intelligent then he may have thought himself somewhat ‘apart’ from people such as Hama. And a further thought to add to this is that Tolkien seems to have been showing how Saruman’s thirst for greater knowledge led him into foolish deeds (e.g. overuse of the palantir), so it would be interesting if Grima’s ‘fall’ was due to the same reason. If, however, Grima ended up as a ‘clerk’ due to his lack of physical prowess, then he could have wished to prove his power in other ways, as he may have experienced resentment or even a feeling of inadequacy in comparison to the cultural ‘norm’ of Rohan, and sought to be ‘special’ in other ways.

So why was Grima vulnerable to the influence of Saruman? I think that Saruman may have been looking for a way of influencing the king and if Grima was already vulnerable by feeling his potential status had been belittled in some way, then he would be more likely to listen to someone like Saruman who may have had all manner of ideas about how he could ‘climb’ the power ladder in Edoras. It is something that those of us who work can see every day in office politics; there are those who seek status simply for its own sake and who play the game to perfection. I think this is what Grima did. You can see that other men do not like or trust him, and he works by ‘eliminating’ his competition e.g. Eomer, by getting the ‘boss’ to deal harshly with such people.

When Gandalf compares Grima to a serpent then draws a good comparison, as the man has achieved his success by clever and crafty use of politics; his actions have not been for the good of Rohan, but for his own good. In the circles which surround our leaders such figures are unfortunately common, and I remember reading in Tolkien’s Letters of how he didn’t like ‘officials’, so the notion of Grima as a corrupt, self-serving official could well be a good one.

How did Grima work on Theoden? I think he made great use of negative talk,
influencing the king through looking on the doubtful, pessimistic side of everything. Theoden is worn down by the words of Grima; hearing such negative words each day, eventually Theoden would come to expect the worst and to hear positive words would seem somehow wrong. Of course, to gain the king’s ear in the first place, Grima will have had to begin by telling the king precisely what he wanted to hear. This kind of talk is shown by Saruman himself, who uses flattery at Orthanc in his attempt to win round the group who are listening to him.

I think that there is no actual magic as we might perceive it involved in the gradual decline of Theoden. Rather, I think that Grima has learned from Saruman exactly how to talk to and deal with the king. So the ‘poison’ is very much Saruman’s, but the vessel is definitely Grima.

As to whether he ever repents, it is not clear that he does, even the act of killing Saruman is rather an act of desperation than an attempt to put right what his master has done. Grima has been left with little choice, he cannot go back to his privileged position in Rohan (especially since he made an enemy of the new king or ‘boss’), and Saruman, who promised to be powerful, is now reduced to petty crime himself. Grima sought status and now he has none, nor any chance of ever gaining any, he is at the bottom of the social heap and so has little to lose when he acts out of a sense of vengeance. Is he redeemed in any way? He is certainly brought low, so in that sense he can be said to have been punished, as he ends up with quite the opposite of what he sought in life. But is this reason enough? Does he ever admit to his lust for power, and does he have to do that in order to repent?

About Grima and Eowyn, I think that something of the timescale must be taken into account here. We don’t know how old Grima is, nor do we know how long he has been Theoden’s adviser, but we could assume that it has been some time, and so the promise of Eowyn might not have been made from the outset. I like to think not, as Eowyn is still a very young woman! Maybe the promise of Eowyn was made as she grew to adulthood, as a way of keeping or maintaining Grima’s loyalty to Saruman; he could have told Grima that if he kept up his work, then he would be able to ask for and successfully gain the hand of Eowyn. And what of Grima’s interest in her? We can’t assume it was either love or lust that he felt; it could have simply been due to the fact that she was the highest status woman in Rohan that he sought her hand. She would have been his ‘trophy wife’, and to be married to her would have brought him even closer to the centre of power in that country.

I think Grima shows us that it is not just Rings of Power or Silmarils or Palantiri which can corrupt, that other, more intangible desires can have a detrimental effect. This is quite clever, as we know that the downfall of Numenor was due to similar intangible desires in the hearts of Men, or, we know this if we have read the Silmarillion; to include this idea in the form of Grima makes for good writing as it gives us a glimpse into another aspect of how Men can fail.

Also, it might be interesting to compare Grima and Gollum. Which is the more evil of these two? Surely Gollum has been unwittingly corrupted only by desire for a ‘magical object’? Can we blame him for that? He is the more damaged of the two, certainly, and the one most beyond salvation, but is he more evil?

I'll stop here, I've gone on quite long enough! ;)

[Encaitare]

When offered the chance of redemption by Frodo he does not take it.

He most likely would have accepted had Saruman not interfered and angered him. After killing Saruman, I suppose then, as you said, he figured they would not offer him further mercy.

We don’t know how old Grima is, nor do we know how long he has been Theoden’s adviser, but we could assume that it has been some time, and so the promise of Eowyn might not have been made from the outset.

The thought I have on this is that maybe Saruman's "buying" Grima was a gradual thing. At first he might have just asked for some seemingly harmless information about Rohan, then maybe for some info about its military status. Grima was probably serving Theoden for a while until the time Saruman finally flat-out struck whatever kind of bargain they made, but Saruman already had one foot in the door.

[Thinlómien]

I'm quite skeptical about spells in Gríma's case - I don't think he was under Saruman's spell. That thought just makes him a victim too. (In a way he was - but not this way.)
Really, Gríma served Saruman because of his own will and later because he had no other choice really.
This is the way I understand him; he became "evil" because of his human greed and desire for power. He's a human character after all. A victim of his weakness. I pity him as I pity Gollum.

[Lhunardawen]

There is textual evidence that Grima is a man of Rohan, and that he had some status to begin with, as his lineage is named. Hmm...I smell rebellion! And possibly a desire to usurp the throne. And make the king's daughter his queen.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Saruman did not manipulate him, but rather promised him rewards. And Theoden was never under Saruman's "control", not in the books. There is no exorcism in the books, but rather wise words by Gandalf.

Ah, but do you remember the wave of tiredness, the dark force of will that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli felt when they entered Rohan and began moving toward Isengard?

Saruman was capable of exerting his presence and weakening their wills ... and speeding along his orcs, probably in the same way that Gandalf did the complete opposite, strengthening the wills of men, and intimidating orcs with no more than sheer will (you saw this more when he became "White", naturally).

So, if Saruman were to bend that focus onto one man, Theoden (who he could presumably monitor using his Palantir, which is what the movie logically came up with as the tool of the "sorcery" involved) then he may very well have been applying just a bit of pressure on Theoden.

I don't think he could literally possess the mind of any man ... but weakening wills seemed to be right up his alley, and with Wormtongue giving logical explanations and manipulating events so that Theoden simply thought he was growing older and wearier ... it seems like this 'spell' (it wasn't really a spell) could have worked.

Saruman's 'menace' was a viable part of Theoden's weakness. Between that shadow of fear, and force of will, Wormtongue's meddling and bad times, Theoden was subdued.

Anyway, Grima son of Galmod was Rohirric, he was devious, manipulative and crafty from the beginning ... and Saruman knew exactly how to play him.

It wouldn't take much to see that Wormtongue had a fancy for Eowyn ... Saruman could have used that. Also, as a scrawny, weaker man growing up among tough, militaristic, athletic lads like Theodred and Eomer, Wormtongue probably was a bit of an outcast in youth, that would explain why he felt like he should turn on his own people ... it's likely Theodred and Eomer weren't especially kind to him, even in youth ... and he was getting a little payback.

[Anguirel]

Also, as a scrawny, weaker man growing up among tough, militaristic, athletic lads like Theodred and Eomer, Wormtongue probably was a bit of an outcast in youth, that would explain why he felt like he should turn on his own people ... it's likely Theodred and Eomer weren't especially kind to him, even in youth ... and he was getting a little payback.

My thoughts exactly. I used to hate Wormtongue worse than sin, until I realised, at length, that Grima could so easily have been me. Physically weak and no warrior, very likely seeking solace in that most un-Rohirric form of entertainment, reading. Surrounded by adonises, golden haired and brawny, heroes, leaders of men, who must have sneered at this dark-haired, softly spoken fellow, and suspected him as he rose in the King's counsel, at first, one imagines, through genuine ability.

I expect his love for Eowyn was at first genuine, and had he remained true, could even have ended happily. Eowyn ends up with a man who, although he may be a great fighter, far prefers reading and scholarship; an enlightened prince and not a mere hero of battle. Heresy though this may be, you can't deny that, but for Grima's dreadful faults of character and cowardice, he and Faramir might have quite a few similarities.

Embittered and suspected by the King's tanists, Grima would have sought the company of the White Wizard. Saruman would have been sympathetic...would know everything at once...and Grima would be lost in his wise counsel.

[Lalwendë]

you can't deny that, but for Grima's dreadful faults of character and cowardice, he and Faramir might have quite a few similarities.

I think the main difference between Grima and Faramir is that the latter does not seek power, while the former seeks it to such an extent that the very process of gaining it corrupts him. Both are slightly at odds with the perceived 'norms' of their respective cultures (and in Faramir's case, family expectations), but Faramir lives on the edges of his society while Grima seeks to get right to the centre of it. Neither of these ways of being is what they should do, as both go to extremes in doing what they do, Faramir almost seeming to want to escape, while Grima craves acceptance. Both are introverts, but while Faramir is damaged by his need to retreat, Grima is damaged by his need to have power, to be an infiltrator of the highest circle of his society.

Faramir of course gets his chance for 'redemption' of sorts by rejecting the ring, but Grima refuses to be redeemed in any way. Faramir does not suffer from an excess of pride, but Grima does, and it is this which brings him so low, literally, by the end of his life.

[Anguirel]

Excellent comparison, Lalwende. And of course, Faramir had several advantages over Grima by virtue of his birth. He was a Numenorean of the highest blood, handsome and tall, and in a culture where it was thought perfectly acceptable to be a master of lore rather than weapons. When pushed to it, he was also a natural leader-a better one, as far as we can tell, than his brother-and physically strong enough to fight for his country. And as the son of the Steward he was already at the centre of power-and, critically, learned to be wary of power, knowing it had led to his mother's waning.

Grima did not even conform to the physical standards of Rohan, with his dark hair. He was born into a minor warrior nobility, where war and the practice of arms was everything. He was as far from power as possible, armed with only his wits. The urge to get there, to beat the great fighters, must have been his driving force throughout his early life. And not an unadmirable one. For though he always sought to serve himself, in the beginning he meant to do so by serving King and country as best he could. He was no good in battle-why not a spot of administration? But in the end his pride would take him into murkier waters.

[Elianna]

For another example of how Faramir and Gríma are similar, and the differences in that, check this out: Wizards' Pupils (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11286)

[Kath]

Back to something Keeper of Dol Guldur said

So, if Saruman were to bend that focus onto one man, Theoden (who he could presumably monitor using his Palantir, which is what the movie logically came up with as the tool of the "sorcery" involved) then he may very well have been applying just a bit of pressure on Theoden.

How would this work? I was under the impression that the palantirs communicated with each other, that two people had to own one each to be able to talk - such as Saruman and Sauron.

[Elianna]

I was under the impression that the palantirs communicated with each other...

Me too, Kath. Maybe it was just through Gríma, or maybe Gríma had minions of his own: weaker minded Rohirrim who had grudges against the king, Théodred, or Éomer. We saw them in the movie, punching Éomer and attacking Aragorn and Co. (only to be kung-fu-ed :) ). They could quickly carry messages from Edoras to Isengard without Théoden missing Gríma, and without Gríma missing a beat to keep Edoras under control.


Here's an interesting tid-bit about Gríma: Only he himself and Théoden (only when he's still not completely healed) call him just plain "Gríma" and not Wormtongue. Not even in the narration is he called Gríma. Always Wormtongue.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

The Palantir were used to communicate with each other, but Gandalf talked about using them to see things in the past, like the workings of the mind of Feanor, and seeing

"To see far off, and to converse in thought with one another ..."

And then regarding the Orthanc-stone;

"But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote."

"... turn it where I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"

Anyway, my point about Saruman using the Palantir as a tool for it seems a little iffy anyway, and closer reading revealed that for the most part, his gaze in the Palantir was on Barad-Dur, and it took massive force of will to take it away, because Sauron drew all who looked into it there through his own Ithil-stone.

But Saruman could crush wills anyway ... his voice ... his essence.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I don't know how to describe this...

"Then I will," said Saruman. "Worm killed your Chief, poor little fellow, your nice little Boss. Didn't you Worm? Stabbed him in his sleep, I believe. Buried him, I hope; though Worm has been very hungry lately. No, Worm is not really nice. You had better leave him to me."

The question then, is did Wormtongue really ate Lotho? Or was Saruman only jesting in cold blood? As it seems, Saruman may have coerced Worm to cannibalize like the orcs that had been under his command. But if so, it might even be argued that wormtongue himself was deprived.

[Lalwendë]

The question then, is did Wormtongue really ate Lotho? Or was Saruman only jesting in cold blood? As it seems, Saruman may have coerced Worm to cannibalize like the orcs that had been under his command. But if so, it might even be argued that wormtongue himself was deprived.

I don't think Grima did eat him. What seems to be happening is that in his clever way, Saruman is shifting some of the focus of the anger off himself and onto Grima by making the Hobbits think that Grima had done such a deed. He is also making him seem even lower than he already is, dragging him down even further, as if he has not been brought low enough already. That we are prepared to believe Grima could do such a thing shows how low he had been brought - a case of how the mighty are fallen - in both our eyes (and we have always seen only the bad side of him) and in terms of his status in Middle Earth. Saruman likes having Grima to push around; he needs his company because he himself has been brought low and he needs to have someone around him who has been brought even lower.

[Elianna]

Saruman is also punning on calling Gríma Worm, saying that he now even eats the dead.

I'm with Lalwendë: Saruman, I think, here is being sarcastic (thought as I've said before the first part, about him watching the stars, is not sarcastic).

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

But what I found more interesting is whether Saruman could coerce Grima into cannibalizing. We know of course that by that time the relationship between Saruman and Wormtongue is exactly as Gandalf had put: "gnaw one another with words." But Saruman seemed to turn up much better off, with his command of words.

Cannibalizing is one of the most unspeakable acts that Prof T portrayed. In fact, he reserved this taboo acts for only animals and the unclean.

'Alas!' said Theoden. 'Must we pass this way, where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?" "This is our way," said Gandalf. "Grievous is the fall of your men; but you shall see that at least the wolves of the mountains do not devour them. It is with their friends, the Orcs, that they hold their feast: such indeed is the friendship of their kind. Come!"

Gollum is understandably a cannibal... Yet, Prof T had his way and displayed some of the redeemable qualities in him. Surely, Grima, who was subservient to a deceitful master, is more deserving of pity?

[Encaitare]

I'm with Lalwendë: Saruman, I think, here is being sarcastic (thought as I've said before the first part, about him watching the stars, is not sarcastic).

Still agree with the first bit; still don't agree with the second bit. I hold to the belief that Saruman is just dripping sarcasm in all aspects of this scene, but hey, to each her own. ;)

Saruman is also punning on calling Gríma Worm, saying that he now even eats the dead.

Now that is interesting; I didn't think of that before. Plus, a worm is basically the lowest form of life, a parasite, even as Grima was to Theoden. It can't survive on its own -- it needs others around to help it live, perhaps why Grima decided to go with Saruman even when Gandalf told him to just leave him.

[Formendacil]

It can't survive on its own -- it needs others around to help it live, perhaps why Grima decided to go with Saruman even when Gandalf told him to just leave him.

Well, as far that goes, EVERY living thing (with the possible... er... likely exception of the Valar and other Ainur) needs other living things in order to survive.

Another point in Grima's favour?

[Encaitare]

Well, as far that goes, EVERY living thing (with the possible... er... likely exception of the Valar and other Ainur) needs other living things in order to survive.

Let me make myself clearer -- what I meant was that it seems that Grima would not be able to make it on his own, unlike, say, Aragorn. He lacks that sort of independence, which is why I wonder where exactly he thought he was going when he ran off after killing Saruman.

[Elianna]

I wonder where exactly he thought he was going when he ran off after killing Saruman.

I tend to think he was just running. Running away. Away from Saruman and his tormenting.

After snapping like he did before attacking Saruman, I don't think it was still in his mind that Frodo had offered help. I wonder, would Frodo still have offered the help, with the killing of Lotho and Saruman? He offered the help because Gríma had done no harm to him. Now Frodo knows Gríma's killed his cousin. But then again, he was a S-B, and had been the "Chief" of the destruction of the Shire. And that was a horrid show of violence and savageness in killing Saruman. But then it was Saruman, I needn't go into all his wrong-doings.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

One of Tolkien's nice touches is the way he leaves open possible
speculative musings on various characters and events,
and why some early critics missed the shadings of some of
his characters. One can imagine scenarios where Grima is
redeemed. Note that both Theoden and Frodo consider him
worthy ofof being offered chances to choose redemption.
And it's a nice touch by JRRT to leave the question of Grima's
cannibalism not definitively answered (although I'm inclined to think he
probably was guilty, but even so, to what extent would that have
really been his choice, or did Saruman unduly influence and
dominate him)? But of course, one could counter by quoting
Tolkien. I think in one of the Letters he says something to the
effect of Gollum being the sort of wretched creature he was
because of earlier choices he had made.

[Lalwendë]

There is another possibility with Grima and why there are those prepared to give him pity and the chance for repentance. He has done great wrong, and Tolkien takes great care to show us just how far he has fallen into evil ways, but Saruman bullies him. In his final act of killing Saruman, Grima is taking out his anger at his master and fighting back, despite it being too late. He fights back not because he sees that Saruman has done wrong on the wider scale but because Saruman has done wrong to him. I wonder if he had carried out this act before this point had been reached would he have been shown more pity? But would he have accepted it? We know Grima has been an excessively proud man, and his sense of shame in being brought so low must have been almost too much to bear, so I don't think he would have accepted pity, whether Saruman was around or not.

[Kath]

Thanks for (sort of) clearing that up about the palantirs Keeper of Dol Guldur. No end of confusion followed that post!

On the whole cannibal thing I don't think that Grima did eat Lotho, it seemed more that Saruman was just being cruel, to poke fun at him almost. Though Grima was a wretched creature I don't believe that he was truly evil but that view is based upon his rebellion against Saruman right at the end. The fact that he was able to kill does suggest he is evil but then you could say that about Eomer or Aragorn as they all kill evil. I realise that this is a stretched comparison but it sort of works.

[Halbarad]

The thing about the killing of Saruman was that it was a murder, albeit commited under extreme provocation. Neither Aragorn nor Eomer would have committed murder under any circumstances, indeed, I think that they would not have even snared an orc with a falsehood, let alone murder one. I think Frodo would have given Wormtongue (I'm pretty sure Grima was dead well before Worm and Saruman got out of Orthanc) a chance to repent had he not been slain by the hobbit archers.

As for the cannabalism I favour not. I see Saruman's thinly veiled accusation as just another way of degrading Wormtongue out of spite and malice.