LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 07 - In the House of Tom Bombadil

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This is Tom Bombadil’s chapter! It contains the bulk of the information Tolkien gives us about him and Goldberry and has therefore sparked many, many discussions on our favorite enigma. The hobbits’ stay in their house is filled with dreams, story-telling, and singing.

How does this chapter affect you? What do you think it does for the story? Which parts do you like most or least?

[davem]

This is tom Bombadil's Chapter!

Well that's as may be, but lets not forget his 'pretty lady'!

I suppose the major character here, at least the one whose presence dominates this chapter, is Tom, but while a great deal has been written about him, his wife, Goldberry seems to have been pushed into second place. She is perhaps too mysterious, yet her presence runs through this chapter like an undercurrent - no pun intended (ok, who am I kidding, it was a pun,, & it was intended!).

Goldberry is the first person we meet in this chapter:
In a chair, at the far side of the room facinng the outer door, sat a woman. Her long yellow hair riippled down her shoulders, her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew, & her belt was of gold, shaped like a chain of flag-lillies set with thee pale blue eyes of forget-me-nots. About her feet in wide vessels of green & brown earthen ware, white water lillies were floating, so that she seemed to be enthroned in the midst of a pool’

It is Goldberry who welcomes the guests into the house, & closes the door, shutting the night, & its terrors, out It is also Goldberry who recognises Frodo as an ‘elf friend’ & assures the hobbits of their safety:

’Have peace now,’ she said, ‘until the morning! Heed no nightly noises! For nothing passes door & window here save moonlight & starlight & the wind off the hilltop. Good night!’ She passed out of the room with a glimmer & a rustle. the sound of her footsteps was like a stream falling gently away downhill over cool stones in the quiet of night.

Its also from Goldberry that we learn of Tom’s nature:
Tom Bombadil is the Master. No-one has ever causght old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hilltops under light & shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.

Goldberry is so beautiful that Frodo is overwhelmed, & finds himself repeating Tom’s own song about her. She seems to have control of the elements - the hobbits are forced to remain a full day in Tom & Goldberry’s house, because of the torrential rain, which Tom explains is due to it’s being ‘Goldberry’s washing day, & her autumn cleaning.

Yet, if we look for accounts of Goldberry, attempts to understand her nature, we find very few. Tolkien himself, in letter 210 says of her: ‘Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands.’ Not much insight there, though.

In their scholarly study, The Uncharted Realms of Tolkien, Alex Lewis & Elizabeth Currie offer an explanation of her as a ‘River lady’ like the dangerous figures of English folkore, Jenny Greenteeth & Peg Powler, who seek to drag the unwary traveller underwater & drown them. Yet, in a book which expends a fulll fifty pages on ‘Tolkien & the Woman Question, analysing the characters of Galadriel, Eowyn & Erendis, all they can manage to say about Goldberry (in a chapter dedicated to Tom, by the way!) is:

Tom captures & marries Goldberry (I’ve given quotes from the relevant verses of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil in the last thread, where she first attempts to drown Tom, & then is captured & married by him, but I’ll repeat them at the end of this post, for the sake of ‘completism’), in a clear & ingenious transformation of the ‘fairy bride’ stories so widespread in the British Isles. Once removed from the river, Goldberry is literally domesticated; dwelling in a house, part of a family (however unconventional) she is tamed & becomes as beautiful & useful as clean, safe water from a well or a tap, far removed from the unpredictable, wild & murky waters outside. It is her mother who is left the spirit of the river, mourning her bereavement, as untamed & dangerous as ever. Goldberry, on the other hand, is treated here more as if she was one of the ‘Lake Maidens’ of Welsh tradition. The poem is not explicit, but it sounds as if Goldberry never returns to the wild water she was dragged from, which would fit the ‘fairy bride’ motif.

Leaving aside the question of exactly how ‘safe’ & ‘domesticated’ Goldberry really is - which personally I would question, as I wouldn’t feel happy getting on the wrong side of her, & of whether the writers are correct in their assumption that ‘Goldberry never returns to the wild water she was dragged from’ - Tom tells the hobbits:
...for now I shall no longer
go down deep again along the forest water,
not while the year is old. Nor shall I be passing
Old Man Willow’s house this side of spring-time,
not till the merry spring, when the River-Daughter
dances down the withy-path to bathe in the water.
This still doesn’t take us much farther in understanding what she ‘means’ as a character. However, I have managed to find an essay, by Deirdre Green, Higher Argument: Tolkien & the Tradition of Vision, Epic & Prophecy, in the Proceedings of the 1992 Centenary Conference collection:
The dwelling has low roofs, indicating simple humility; it is filled with light, suggesting spiritual good; the furnishings & the candles are of natural materials, connoting rural closeness to nature. Goldberry’s chair, far opposite the door, suggests a throne in a reception hall. Her yellow hair, suggests innocence & goodness; it is yellow rather than gold, emphasising her unassuming nature. Her gown associates her with lush, young vegitation. Her belt is the gold of purity & sovereignty, but it celebrates in iits floral design the eternal, cyclical triumph of nature. She is encircled by water & flowers, symbols of purity & fertility. As a whole, the image asserts Goldberry as a queen or a local deity, whose power derives from nature; she is associated with water, morning, & spring, & so belongs to the germinating, birthing, & burgeoning segment of the nature cycle. The reader is left with the impression that her power is so fundamental that there is no need for any display of sovereignty; Goldberry’s power is that of earth, water & warmth. Tolkien has combined the complex symbolism od the elaborate pictorial images of Spenser & Milton with observation of real things found in this world to produce a plausible image of great illustrative significance; again he has taken the effects of older literature & shaped them to more modern literary taste

Yet she seems more than all that, because, while all those quotes can give us some insight into her ‘symbolism’, they don’t account for her character, her loving, welcoming, protective nature, her concern for the hobbits, which she displays at he beginning of the next chapter, when she sees them off on their journey.

If anyone knows of a study of Goldberry I’d be interested. She has been overshadowed by Tom (but who wouldn’t be?) for too long.


(Relevant verses about Golberry from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil:
Old Tom in summertime walked about the meadows
gathering the buttercups, running after shadows,
tickling the bumblebees that buzzed among the flowers,
sitting by the waterside for hours upon hours.

There his beard dangled long down into the water:
up came Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter;
pulled Tom's hanging hair. In he went a-wallowing
under the water-lilies, bubbling and a-swallowing.

'Hey, Tom Bombadil! Whither are you going?'
said fair Goldberry. 'Bubbles you are blowing,
frightening the finny fish and the brown water-rat,
startling the dabchicks, and drowning your feather-hat!'

'You bring it back again, there's a pretty maiden!'
said Tom Bombadil. 'I do not care for wading.
Go down! Sleep again where the pools are shady
far below willow-roots, little water-lady!'

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;
on knotted willow-roots he sat in sunny weather,
drying his yellow boots and his draggled feather.

**********************************************

Wise old Bombadil, he was a wary fellow;
bright blue his jacket was, and his boots were yellow.
None ever caught old Tom in upland or in dingle,
walking the forest-paths, or by the Withywindle,
or out on the lily-pools in boat upon the water.
But one day Tom, he went and caught the River-daughter,
in green gown, flowing hair, sitting in the rushes,
singing old water-songs to birds upon the bushes.

He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!'

Old Tom Bombadil had a merry wedding,
crowned all with buttercups, hat and feather shedding;
his bride with forgetmenots and flag-lilies for garland
was robed all in silver-green. He sang like a starling,
hummed like a honey-bee, lilted to the fiddle,
clasping his river-maid round her slender middle.

Lamps gleamed within his house, and white was the bedding;
in the bright honey-moon Badger-folk came treading,
danced down under Hill, and Old Man Willow
tapped, tapped at window-pane, as they slept on the pillow,
on the bank in the reeds River-woman sighing
heard old Barrow-wight in his mound crying.

Old Tom Bombadil heeded not the voices,
taps, knocks, dancing feet, all the nightly noises;
slept till the sun arose, then sang like a starling:
'Hey! Come derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!'
sitting on the door-step chopping sticks of willow,
while fair Goldberry combed her tresses yellow.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Excellent thoughts on Goldberry, davem! In this context, I remembered an article by Michael Martinez about Tom and Goldberry's marriage - here it is: Love in the Trees (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/98168). I find this sentence of his very interesting: The only creature who masters Bombadil, other than Bombadil himself, is Goldberry. He suggests that it is not Bombadil who chooses the River-daughter. Of their meeting, told in the TB poem davem quotes above, he says: This is a classic courtship ritual. The woman does the choosing, and she tests the man to see if she can dominate him. If she can, he fails her test and she's not interested in him. Tom won't play any girlish games, though, and he goes on about his business, dismissing Goldberry as if she doesn't matter to him. So, he passes the test, and later on, at the end of the poem, when Tom comes to take her away, Goldberry is ready to be his wife. Martinez also emphasizes that Goldberry is Tom's "number one priority", and goes on to show her autonomous power. They have an unusually modern combination of deep affection and strong independence, with not a shadow of subservience on Goldberry's part. This is a high ideal of marriage and a wonderful example!

[Bêthberry]

They have an unusually modern combination of deep affection and strong independence, with not a shadow of subservience on Goldberry's part. This is a high ideal of marriage and a wonderful example!

Possibly, Estelyn, but let's not forget that this is a childless marriage. ;)

I have to say that Martinez's words about the classic courtship ritual mirror my suggestion in the discussion last week on "The Old Forest" chapter that their relationship in the Bombadil poem represented "frisky play". (How about that. Quoting myself.) davem, your analysis of Goldberry is eloquent and very attractive and you are quite right to point out that she is often ignored in discussions of Tolkien's women. I think it is to the good to see the mythological predecesors for the River-Daughter and Goldberry in the

the dangerous figures of English folkore, Jenny Greenteeth & Peg Powler, who seek to drag the unwary traveller underwater & drown them.

However, I think we also need to recognise the specific tenor of Tolkien's use of the figures. The danger is very much softened. There is in the Bombadil poem play and comedy rather than terror and I see nothing to suggest Goldberry's wish to drown Tom; she wishes merely to get his attention.

The other mythological legend which Goldberry suggests is that of Persephone and Demeter, the daughter stolen by the god of the underworld, leaving the mother so disconsolate that the fecundity of the natural world is disrupted. Here, it is the daughter, Goldberry, who controls weather, not her mother the River-Goddess. And here there is no sense that Goldberry, having eaten those three or four pomegranate seeds, is become the queen of the underworld. Instead, she becomes the woman who keeps the black dogs of night at bay--"Heed no nightly noises." Again, Goldberry is very powerful, but the connotations of darkness are removed from the literary archetypes to produce her.

This change reflects, I think, Tolkien's view of his art. His focus is upon how good triumphs over evil rather than upon evil itself. We do not see how Saruman became enmeshed with his studies; his fall is simply a "given" in the story. So, too, is the fall of the Black Riders. We do not know how they became ensnared, simply that they were.
It seems to me that Tolkien tames the legends, domesticates them, leaving us with, as davem has described, an elemental safe haven from which the Hobbits must face the quest before them.

This is looking far ahead, but what I have always regretted is that, when Gandalf says at the conclusion of the book that he wishes to visit Tom, there is no mention of Goldberry. This was likely Tolkien the author attempting to weave the Old Forest chapters back into his story, but his omission of Goldberry stands to me similar to the omission of Goldberry from the after-dinner talks with the Hobbits. Had Tolkien included Goldberry in Gandalf's final remarks, I would have been more inclined to accept unreservedly davem's reading of her.

Unless of course, this is where Fordim's idea, in last week's discussion, comes into play, that we ought always to speak and think of TomandGoldberry (no, no, not Tom and Jerry) rather than just Tom.

[davem]

First of all, let me say how glad I am that we've begun with a proper discussion of Goldberry!

I have to say I found Martinez's essay to display a slightly 'political' bias - Goldberry starts out as a young woman looking for a man, & ends up a mother figure (without, as Bethberry points out, any children).

This, for me, is simply another version of the TomandGoldberry scenario. Goldberry is only 'complete' when she has Tom. I see her marriage to Tom as 'enhancing' her nature rather than 'fixing' her.

Another thing I don't get is this desire for the young Goldberry to be 'nice' & playful. Goldberry is the daughter of the Withywindle, a powerful, magical force. The incident with Tom is depicted in a light hearted, playful fashion, but so are the other encounters, with OMW & the Barrow Wight. Tom's response is exactly the same with all of them - he commands them to go back to sleep. It seems I'm alone in preferring an empowered, dangerous, feminine force of nature, while everyone else is wanting a safe nurturing housewifely type!

I think its essential to realise that we are not dealing with human beings here, but with powers of nature in human form. This is an extreme form of anthropomorphism on Tolkien's part.

Anyway, to jump to Tom, an observation: when he is telling them of his own history:
When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory & beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, & the seas flowed straight to the Western Shore; & still on & back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake. Then suddenly he stopped, & they saw that he nodded as if he was falling asleep.
Its almost as if he is moving back in time, back through his own existence, & as he approaches the point in time when he first awoke, he moves back towards unconsciousness - does anybody get what I mean?

[Aiwendil]

Some very insightful analysis from everyone so far. I agree that Goldberry is a supremely enigmatic character - more so even than Bombadil.

Forgive me if I bring the discussion down from the high and literary to the mundane and literal. But Tom and Goldberry are, I think enigmas in two distinct ways. First, there is the question of how they fit into The Lord of the Rings as a literary work - i.e., what do they "mean", what's the point of their inclusion. An equally interesting question, I think, is how they fit into Tolkien's mythology in a literal sense - i.e. what is Tom Bombadil?

This is probably the single most controversial point among Tolkien fans (the Balrog issue being a close second). The solutions commonly offered are:

1. Tom is Iluvatar. Tolkien explicitly denies this in a letter (I can't recall which one).

2. Tom is a Vala. There's an essay floating around somewhere on the internet proposing that Tom is in fact Aule. I've always found this quite preposterous. Aule is associated not with nature but with smith-work, skill, craft, metal. Not to mention that the idea that a Vala would take up residence incognito in Middle-earth is itself absurd.

3. Tom is a Maia. This is one of the most commonly made assertions. But neither Tom nor Goldberry acts very much like any other Maiar in the mythology. What would a couple of Maiar be doing living in the Old Forest? How can this be reconciled with Goldberry's description of Tom as the "Eldest"?

4. Tom is a human - perhaps the first human - who has taken a "vow of poverty". This makes sense of "Eldest". But humans are mortal, and Tom does not seem to be. Also, it seems unlikely that taking a vow of poverty is enough to ward off the power of the Ring.

5. Tom is an earth-spirit, or the spirit of Arda. I think that this is probably the most interesting view: Tom is simply part of the world, the same as the mountains or the sea. This explains "Eldest". It also explains the Ring's failure to affect him. But - and I don't recall ever seeing this question posed before - does this mean that Tom has a "Melkorian element" in him (cf. Myths Transformed)?

6. There is no intra-Middle-earth explanation for Tom and Goldberry; they can be analyzed in a literary sense but not in a literal one. But it is incredibly uncharacteristic of Tolkien to violate the reality of his own creation in such a way.

I'm certainly not trying to turn this thread into a repeat of the old debate - but I thought it would be interesting to list the major theories; for as old as it is, it is an interesting question. Tom and Goldberry are just about the only things that simply don't seem to fit into Tolkien's otherwise meticulously crafted world.

All right, sorry for the interruption - you may continue with your astute analyses, which I will continue to read with interest.

[Firefoot]

I was able to *force* myself to read this chapter. ;) :rolleyes: Yes, I hate Tom Bombadil.

Something that should be considered, I think, for people trying to decide who Tom is (and like Aiwendil, I do not want to really go into it...) is this quote: When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. This isn't the entire paragraph, but it grows progressively earlier. This is the end, and I was thinking the Dark Lord is probably Morgoth, not Sauron. If he was there before Morgoth (and in turn, the other Ainur) I think this would discount the theories of him being mortal or Ainu. Just some speculation.

Now I will try not to make the rest of this a rant on Tom... but I think one of the reasons that I find him so annoying is because he takes everything so lightly. I think it would be good for him to have some fears, or something that could overcome him... but nothing really can. Because the Ring has no effect on him, he doesn't really take it seriously. He takes everything lightly. For example, OMW: the hobbits are in trouble, and he comes along and basically says "Him? He's no big deal. I'll just do this and everything will be fine." It's not - or it shouldn't be - that simple. Okay, my rant is done.

Interesting points on Tom and Goldberry everybody!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Firefoot,
I would like to expand on what you said about Tom's attitude towards everything. You said;

he takes everything so lightly. I think it would be good for him to have some fears, or something that could overcome him... but nothing really can. Because the Ring has no effect on him, he doesn't really take it seriously. He takes everything lightly.

I find that this is similar to the attitude Tree Beard has about everything. My first thought was that they lived such LONG lives and saw every thing as if from a distance and only a small part in the whole of everything. Tree Beard's attitude at first to "wreathing the storm as they have weathered all others" sort of summarises this. However when he is informed of the treachery of Saruman his mind is changed. I think that Tom may have not felt threatened by Sauron, may be he knew the limits of Sauron's power and so knew that he would not succeed.

My theory of them seeing all as a whole and not really caring for that reason was stricken down when I considered Gandalf.
He, a mair spirit, had an absurdly long life and still had cares for all matters "Weather they belonged to him or not."
So my theory is this; Tom and Tree Beard are sort of separated from the rest of the world. A lot like the hobbits were in the shire, almost ignorant to all goings on outside their borders. Tree beard having cares for the trees had a vice that broke and so lead him to action and to stop seeing all as a whole and for the first time he was hasty, as an Ent would see it.

Tom, on the other hand, cared for the trees, but did not fear dominion by sauron, he possibly knew or saw that his downfall would come and so was not worried. Who or what ever Tom was, I think we can agree that he had some power that let him know or feel that his land would be safe for many years and ages to come.
Well that’s what I think anyway.

[Bêthberry]

It seems I'm alone in preferring an empowered, dangerous, feminine force of nature, while everyone else is wanting a safe nurturing housewifely type!


Now that statement is one which likely would make SaucepanMan's day, being almost a recognition that we see what we desire to see. ;)

Actually, davem, I don't think I have said I want a "safe, nurturing housewifey type" but then you could be speaking to others besides me.

Another thing I don't get is this desire for the young Goldberry to be 'nice' & playful.

Is there "a desire to see" a nice and safe Goldberry? I rather think that my observations about how Tolkien domesticated the older mythologies and
legends suggests that I cannot see such a dangerous character in the text rather than that I don't want to see such a character. I can appreciate the legendary precursors, but in Tolkien's text I don't see the fearfulness, perhaps because this house, the House of Bombadil, is a sanctuary. The Hobbits are delayed by a "washing day", an ordinary rain , rather than a fearful storm with lightning and thunder and violent winds. What sort dangerous empowered feminine nature would say, "Heed no nightly noises"? The dangerous female figures of legend and myth come at night to disturb sleep, not to banish fear.

When I used the word 'play' I did not mean mere frivolity. I meant the very serious, profound kind of play which is the most important aspect of human existence. "Play" is the crucible of children's learning and the keystone in adult mental health. It does not have to be 'nice'. It merely has to be a game.

This is the reason why, I would argue, Bombadil "takes everything so lightly", as Firefoot has complained. For some, the world falls so heavily and so seriously that the only way to stay sane is to deal with it "lightly" in play. I would suggest again that if Frodo had more "play" in him, he might possibly not be so wounded. Or might have been able to resist the Ring better.

Aiwendil, I think it is good to bring that list of past debates and discussions here. And I think you are right to couch the questions this way: "But it is incredibly uncharacteristic of Tolkien to violate the reality of his own creation in such a way." He almost seems to invert his stricure in 'On Fairy Stories" that the one thing that must not be satirised is fairy itself.

But I think you have omitted some other possibilities in the discussion. If I may be so outrageous, let me refer to that rather light-hearted interpretation known as Revenge of the Entish Bow.

Ricky and Gucyberry (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=325856&postcount=179tp://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=325856&postcount=179)

And

Being Ilúminated (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=330417&postcount=188forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=330417&postcount=188)

Hey ho, merry dol, is this allowed, oh mighty mistress Moderator?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Hey ho, merry dol, is this allowed, oh mighty mistress Moderator? Now how could I possibly be against an opportunity for a well-placed, shameless plug for my own RPG, Bb?! ;) :D :rolleyes:

davem, I can't see anything safely domesticated in Goldberry - she is powerful in her femininity, and though she is united with Tom (he is not complete without her either! - it's a two-way relationship), she can stand on her own. This is the kind of ideal marriage I was talking about; two people united, not because they need each other to fill their own lack, but because they voluntarily choose to be together.

The more I think about Goldberry in this chapter, and I'm thankful to davem for getting the discussion focussed more on her than on Tom, the more I see her as a very positive feminine role model. This is the first time I've read this chapter with a greater awareness of her importance in it!

[davem]

I can appreciate the legendary precursors, but in Tolkien's text I don't see the fearfulness, perhaps because this house, the House of Bombadil, is a sanctuary. The Hobbits are delayed by a "washing day", an ordinary rain , rather than a fearful storm with lightning and thunder and violent winds. What sort dangerous empowered feminine nature would say, "Heed no nightly noises"? The dangerous female figures of legend and myth come at night to disturb sleep, not to banish fear.

Well, the fact that she's protective to the hobbits, doesn't mean she's not dangerous - in fact, I'd propose it means she is dangerous - to enemies. Dangerous doesn't mean 'evil' - later on Gandalf will point out to Gimli that he (Gimli) is pretty dangerous himself! I don't think Tom is the only one who could protect the hobbits from harm. I suspect Goldberry could do a pretty effective job on her own, if it came to it.

As far as the 'ordinary rain' of her 'washing day' goes, I don't think we can conclude from that that she couldn't do much more. A nature 'goddess' would be able to control her power. She did what was necessary - any more would have been simply showing off, & potentially destructive, rather than protective.

Oh, back to the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, does anyone find any significance in the fact that Tom's first 'opponent' is Goldberry (=water), his second is OMW (=plants), his third is the family of badgers (=animals), his last is the Barrow Wight (= supernatural being). Its almost like an 'initiation' sequence.

Lastly, for now, why the name 'Goldberry' - isn't that too much of a plant name for a water-lady? Am I pushing etymology too far to speculate its from 'gold-bearer', which could be a kenning, referring to the river water carrying the fallen autumn leaves, or even the reflected glints of sunlight on its surface. (Please tell me if that's a really stupid suggestion!)

[Aiwendil]

Bethberry wrote:
Is there "a desire to see" a nice and safe Goldberry?

Excellently put. Analysis of the text need have nothing whatsoever to do with one's own wishes. I for one don't desire to see Goldberry as nice and safe, but I tend to view her this way nonetheless. The whole tone of the chapter is one of safety and comedy, not of danger. Davem does have something of a point here:

Well, the fact that she's protective to the hobbits, doesn't mean she's not dangerous - in fact, I'd propose it means she is dangerous - to enemies. Dangerous doesn't mean 'evil' - later on Gandalf will point out to Gimli that he (Gimli) is pretty dangerous himself!

But the mythological and folkloric river women are not dangerous only in this sense; they are dangerous to travellers and to good people. And they certainly never offer the kind of safety offered by Goldberry. Nor indeed are they ever put in such, literally, domestic settings. I have to agree with Bethberry that Goldberry is a "tamed" version of the old river woman archetype.

Estelyn wrote:
The more I think about Goldberry in this chapter, and I'm thankful to davem for getting the discussion focussed more on her than on Tom, the more I see her as a very positive feminine role model.

I'm afraid I must disagree with this. I don't think Tolkien was consciously sexist, but I simply can't see Goldberry as a positive female role model. She is perhaps somewhat independent of Tom, but I would not say she comes across as being Tom's equal. It is after all "The House of Tom Bombadil" not "The House of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry". It is Tom that has adventures outdoors; it is Tom with whom the Hobbits spend hours talking; it is Tom that twice rescues them. Also, there is the fact that at her first appearance (in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil) she is presented more or less as a prize to be caught.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Allow me to add my voice to that of Esty in praise of davem for getting us off on a Goldberry foot for this chapter. She is badly overlooked far too often, and I am as guilty as anyone in this.

So far it seems that the major bone of contention in this chapter’s discussion is the depiction of Goldberry as tamed/domesticated or wild/fey in respect to her relationship with Tom. I would like to suggest that there’s another way to approach their relationship: rather than locking ourselves into a relatively simple either/or version of their ‘marriage’ we can regard it from within an older version of relations between men and women, one that I think held a lot of appeal to Tolkien.

It’s an ideal that I’m most familiar with in, of all things, the plays of Shakespeare. It’s the idea that men and women are ‘best’ or ideally suited to be joined in a relationship of mutuality, with the man still clearly ‘in charge’ of a hierarchy, but still dependent upon and completed by the woman. This is more than just each needs the other, and stems from a way of seeing the world in terms of feminine and masculine ‘energies’ or tendencies. In this view of things, and I’m more and more convinced that this is Tolkien’s own view, everyone is possessed of both masculine and feminine natures; not just people are like this, but all other beings, all actions, all of the created world. In this respect, there is no clear and finite division between the genders, as everyone participates to some measure in the intermingling of both. I think that this sort of a view is palpable in the description of Tom and Goldberry working together:

Then Tom and Goldberry set the table; and the hobbits sat half in wonder and half in laughter: so fair was the grace of Goldberry and so merry and odd the caperings of Tom. Yet in some fashion they seemed to weave a single dance, neither hindering the other, in and out of the room and round about the table

The image of the dance is an old and a good one for this – in a traditional dance one partner may lead and the other follow (although we don’t see that here!) but it’s still a mutual effort, with both parties contributing evenly. I think this dancing pair of Tom and Goldberry is the best representation of their mutually conjoined natures – I said it in the last thread, and I reiterate here: I think we are forced by the book to see Tom and Goldberry as single ‘character’ in terms of their function in the narrative.

So they are ‘the same’ in that they are locked in a mutual relationship, but they remain distinct in their effect on the hobbits. When Frodo first encounters Goldberry his reaction is telling:

‘Fair lady Goldberry!’ said Frodo at last, feeling his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand. He stood as he had at time stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange.

The difference between Goldberry and Elves is here summed up by the difference between “enchantment” and “spell”; I think this is really important, for the effect of the Elves is one that is reminiscent of Sauron insofar as it tends toward dominion and over-awing the weaker hobbits, whereas Goldberry (like the Old Forest) works a “spell” – she’s more magical, pure and simple. I love the phrase “marvellous and yet not strange”: I can’t think of a better way to describe hobbits!

‘But I see that you are an elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it.’

Here Goldberry reveals that she is more than ordinarily perceptive. She sees the full Frodo in her first glance: the good (elf-friend) and the evil (the ring in his voice). She sees him fully without apparently judging him; this is not some kind of nurturing earth-mother goddess, but a feminised manifestation of the created world itself: she sees all, knows all, accepts all; lies close to the mortal heart of the hobbits – what could be more magical, in the purest sense, than a rainy day?

Then there’s Tom. For my money, his most important moment comes at:

‘Who are you, Master?’ [Frodo] asked.
‘Eh, what?’ said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. ‘Don’t you know my name yet? That’s the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?’

Right here is where I think we can see Tolkien himself speaking to us right through the mask of his creation. For Tolkien everything begins with language – his works were all undertaken for the sake of the languages he invented, and to go even further, his own Catholicism was one that highly venerated John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Tom is not God or Eru or any such figure – he’s the masculine manifestation of the created world that is the counterpart to Goldberry – but he is here expressing the full creativity of the divine word/language: for Tom the word is the thing, name is identity. This is another way of looking at the magic that fills this realm: Goldberry’s song doesn’t just cause the rain, it is the rain – the true magician says “rain” and water falls from the sky: the reality of the world is begun by language.

So Tom and Goldberry mutually express and embody the truly magical nature of reality in their own ways. They also respond to the Ring in a mutual manner. Goldberry simply accepts the Ring as part of Frodo’s makeup without condemning him or, apparently, seeing any split, while Tom (quite famously for most readers) demonstrates the irrelevance of the Ring to him by putting it on:

‘Show me the precious Ring!’ he said suddenly in the midst of the story: and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom.
…For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold.

His action here is more than just to show how the Ring does not have power over him, but to demonstrate that he, like Goldberry, is fully aware of the nature of the Ring (it is “precious”) and of its maker (he mocks the Eye with his own). This is where I think their mutual relationship becomes clearer, insofar as Goldberry responds to the Ring at the individual level (that is, insofar as it has effected Frodo) whereas Tom responds to it at a more ‘historical’ level. Each aspect of the Ring is a necessary part of its truth – how many threads are there in the Downs arguing over whether the Ring operates internally (swaying Frodo’s “voice”) or as an external source of compulsion (brining Frodo under the ‘Eye’)? The split nature of the Ring is here summed up by Tom and Goldberry working together just as in the dance they undertake.

This post is already too long and too pedantic to continue so I shall leave off with just two more quotes. The first is the description of Tom’s songs:

A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind. Stone rings grinned out of the ground like broken teeth in the moonlight.

And the second is the description of Goldberry’s songs:

Goldberry sang songs for them, songs that began merrily in the hills and fell softly down into silence; and in the silences they saw in their minds pools and waters wider than any they had known, and looking into them, they saw the sky below them and the stars like jewels in the depths.

I would suggest that these two songs taken together – perhaps sung in harmony? – are as good a summation of the world created by Tolkien as have ever been written.

[mark12_30]

Esty, thanks again for that article. Its effects are farther-reaching than one might suppose.

Goldberry dangerous: to whom? I would argue that if pressed, she would be dangerous, as would Galadriel, and Arwen. Would the Barrow-Wight prefer her song to Tom's? I doubt it; though I have no proof, I think if Goldberry had sung to the Wight, he would have been rendered powerless.

But that wasn't Tolkien's point. Rather than in arms, we see her shimmering. For me that is enough.

Goldberry gives the hobbits the merry laughter and the feast and the comfort and safe refuge that they tried to make for themselves at Crickhollow. The sleep is refreshing; though they dream, they are comforted upon waking; the baths (and the washing) is more real because more magical; the songs are deeper, yet bring more joy; the comfort, though temporary, takes root in their hearts.

‘Come dear folk!’ she said, taking Frodo by the hand. ‘Laugh and be merry! I am Goldberry, daughter of the River.’ Then lightly she passed them and closing the door she turned her back to it, with her white arms spread out across it. ‘Let us shut out the night!’ she said. ‘For you are still afraid, perhaps, of mist and tree-shadows and deep water, and untame things. Fear nothing! For tonight you are under the roof of Tom Bombadil.’

Tolkien pulls this off when others could not. To fear nothing! To shut out the night! Incredible. I wept when I read this.

[Lalwendë]

I have to say that I find Tom Bombadil fascinating. To me he symbolises the Green Man, the spirit of nature, and in particular of the woodlands. Possible evidence of this can be found when Tom says that he was making his last trip of the year to gather the lillies, which to me mirrors the yearly hibernation of the Green Man. He is also described as 'Master' of the woodlands, and he has a power over the trees and animals who live there.

Tom is an enigma, and an ancient being living in an undisturbed place, and I like to think that Tolkien was linking some of the oldest and most enigmatic of our folklore into his own creation of Middle Earth. There are the Valar and Maiar, the Elves and Men, all with their own structured histories, yet Tolkien still included this strange figure who cannot be defined by these structures. This mirrors actual mythology, in that we have the Celtic and Norse stories with gods, goddesses and heroes who all have their 'place', alongside older, all-encompassing and more intangible figures who we can only speculate upon.

Intriguingly, Goldberry is also an ancient figure herself, the Goddess - who is at once equal to and different from the god. As Fordim puts it, they are joined in a relationship of mutuality

Tom and Goldberry are complementary to one another, as the ancient figures of the God and Goddess are. They are joined in the 'sacred marriage'. Goldberry is also the river-daughter, another representation of the goddess, and her treachery/trickery when she first meets Tom demonstrates the vividly dangerous side to the goddess figure.

So, not entirely objective thoughts, and possibly not that new, either, but when I read chapters 6 to 8, everything I have read about ancient beliefs and myths immediately springs to mind. Maybe Tolkien had in mind to stir in the possibility that we might start to suspect that Middle Earth was older than its own 'established' mythology? Or just to add in something of the enigmatic aspects of our own ancient past?

[mark12_30]

. Jack (http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/JETHRO-TULL/Jack-In-The-Green.html), do you never sleep?
Does the green still run deep
in your heart?
Oh, oh,
Or will these changing times,
Motor-ways, power lines,
keep us apart?

Well I don't think so;
I saw some grass growing
through the pavements today.

[davem]

Quote:
‘But I see that you are an elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it.’

Here Goldberry reveals that she is more than ordinarily perceptive. She sees the full Frodo in her first glance: the good (elf-friend) and the evil (the ring in his voice).

This hadn't struck me before - but what does it say about the nature of the elf-friend? Elves are ring-makers - perhaps the more we learn about the nature of the rings the more we'll learn about the elves (& their friends)- was Annatar ever named an 'elf-friend', I wonder.

But Goldberry - how come, after all this time, after all the threads & all the posts, why have we all suddenly become aware of Goldberry? Oh, that somebody would write a proper study of her!

(Having said that, I'll turn to Tom;) )

I suppose I lean towards Lalwende's feelings about Tom & Goldberry

He then told them many remarkable stories, sometimes half as if speaking to himself, someties looking at them suddenly with a bright blue eye under his deep brows. Often his voice would turn to song & he would get out of his chair & dance about.

So, what stories does he tell the hobbits, exactly?

He begins, with the place they’re in - the Old Forest. He tells them its nature & history, the stories of its inhabitants, giving them an insight into the place they’re in. then his stories take them out from the forest into the hills of the Barrow Downs. He takes them, also, back in time, back through the history of the Land, but his stories don’t stop there:

When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory & beyond their waking thought (but not beyond their ‘sleeping’ thought?), into times when the world was wider, & the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; & still on & back Tom went singing out into the starlight, when the Elf-sres were awake.....The hobbits sat still before him, enchated; & it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, the wind had gone, , & the clouds had dried up, & the day had been withdrawn, & darkness had come from east & west, & all the sky was filled with the light of white stars...

Whether the morning & evening of one day or of many days had passed Frodo could not tell. He did not feel either hungry or tired, only filled with wonder. the stars shone through the window & the silence of the heavens seemed to be round him.

They have been transported from the everyday world, with the earth solid beneath their feet, back to the begining, where the stars of Elbereth shine in the silence. But still, Tom is there, his voice speaking out of that silence. And he is going to tell them something important, something vital - he tells them to ‘mark my words, my friends’:

Tom was here before the river & the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop & the first acorn He made paths before the Big People & saw the little People arriving . He was here before the Kings & the graves & the Barrow Wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, befor the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

What Tom is telling them is that his ‘stories’ are not simply stories - they are his own memories - he is telling them of his own experiences. But this visionary experience doesn’t end with Tom standing in the fearless dark, beneath the stars, something else is to culminate the whole mystical experience:
A shadow seemed to pass by the window, & the hobbits glanced hastily through the panes. When they turned again, Goldberry stood in the door behind, framed in light. She held a candle, shielding the flame from the draught with her hand: & the light flowed through it, like sunlight through a white shell.
‘The rain has ended,’ she said; ‘and new waters are running downhill, under the stars. Let us now laugh & be glad!’

We’ve gone back to the begining of the world, guided by Tom Bombadil, & who do we find awaiting us, bearing a light in her hand, echoing the Secret Fire, telling us that new waters are flowing under the stars, but Goldberry, the River Daughter!

Finally, what do we make of Tom’s verse:

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood & hill, by the reed & willow,
By fire, sun & moon, hearken now & hear us!
Come Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!

This is a kind of ‘invocation’ - Tom is called by invoking the elements of the Land - water & earth, the living plants & trees (including the ‘dread’ Willow!), the (the ‘Secret’?)‘fire’, & finally, by the lights of heaven, the Sun & the Moon. They are to call on the elements of the Land beneath & the heavens above them, to bring Tom to their aid, & if they do so, he will come to them.

[HerenIstarion]

This post, due to considerable lack of time, will be brief and a bit jumpy (but I promise to come out with a bit about Tom and his versified speech in the next chapter discussion. I will probably include the following as the part of the post to come, as incantation in question is repeated in chapter 8 too):

The last verse in davem (http://69.51.5.41/member.php?u=852)'s post re:

Probable hint at ‘who is Tom Bombadil’ may be found in the incantation he teaches hobbits to entreat him to their aid:

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!

Hobbits must implore to nature elements to summon him. May it be he is nature spirit? (though yours truly leans over to the ‘ëalar theory’, or all of the mixed up). Interesting too is that three out of four are mentioned: earth, water, fire, but not air. Why, one should ask? In addition to this one may reflect upon the following:

I am no weather-master

So, Tom controls water, earth and fire inside his boundaries, but not air. (hey, who said poetry is dumb? who dares to skip the verses in LoTR. You! Yes, you! Detention!). That’s why Bombadil may not be Manwe (as I’ve heard some say. But merely earth spirit is not enough – what about water and fire, than? I probably may argue that Bombadil is all of them together, i.e. earth spirit (by hill + marriage to river daugher, scenery reminiscent (or so I'm told) of Oxford countryside), a bit of a Maia (Gandalf as his equal and rolling stones, but that will be jumping before the train, as it comes out by the end of the book), a bit of Eru (omnipotence inside his land, the incanantatio he uses to wake hobbits - chapter 8, 'I will not step outside') etc. But, er, well, before I go too far along the road of Tom’s origin, let me refer you to burra ( http://forum.barrowdowns.com/member.php?userid=43)’s excellent Derry Dol, Indeed (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=94) thread and stop here.

So far so good

As for the Light in Frodo's face and Ring in his Voice, I doubt the light and ring are to oppose each other as symbols of Good and Evil. True to alleged jumpiness, and due to proclaimed busyness, I will refrain from discourse at the spot, but merely direct you to the following:

Concerning Elf-Friends (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=1358)

Cheers :)

[Fingolfin II]

Fordim said:

Here Goldberry reveals that she is more than ordinarily perceptive. She sees the full Frodo in her first glance: the good (elf-friend) and the evil (the ring in his voice).

That's an extremely good pick up, Fordim. Also just let me add that I think it works both ways- I think that Frodo's 'elvishness' and his burden are beginning to show more on his physical characteristics, and that we can see this stated explicitly sometimes (i.e. when he looks at himself in the mirror in Rivendell).

I never knew that Goldberry generated so much interest for lots of people- to me it was Tom who was more interesting, and I assumed that whatever he was (i.e. Maia, spirit, etc.) Goldberry was too; I must make it my mission to read The Adventures. At first when I heard it was a collection of poems, and I skim read one, I thought it was very "babyish" (it was similar to Sam's poem about the trolls), but now I've come to love the more "babyish" or "hobbitish" of Tolkien's poems as much as, or even more than, his more serious, darker ones. Goldberry is certainly an very interesting lady, to say the least.

[davem]

Hobbits must implore to nature elements to summon him. May it be he is nature spirit? (though yours truly leans over to the ‘ëalar theory’, or all of the mixed up). Interesting too is that three out of four are mentioned: earth, water, fire, but not air. Why, one should ask?

Indeed, & why invoke him by the plants of the forest & not the animals? Also, in the light of Tom's songs - which seem to be the source (or perhaps the means of 'channelling') his power - Tom seems able to overcome his foes because 'his songs are stronger songs, & his feet are faster'. My take on this is that Tom's songs are 'stronger' because they are true songs, coming out of his own experience. The songs of the Barrow Wight & OMW are 'false', & cannot stand against Tom's. Also, does the reference to his feet being faster refer to his tendency to dance as well as sing - its his song & his dance that his power manifests itself.

Secondly, if when Frodo puts on the Ring he 'passes into the otherworld', & so cannot be seen in this one, does that mean that Tom (who can see Frodo clearly when he wears the Ring).like the High Elves, also lives in both worlds at once?

Finally (as far as I remember), only three of Frodo's dreams are given in detail (if we don't count 'Frodo's Dreme, that is) - one at Crickhollow, & the other two under Tom's roof - ie, the first happens as Frodo prepares to enter the Old Forest, the second while he is on the edge of it & the third as he prepares to leave it, one dream on each successive night. Does this relate to the dreamlike nature of the Old Forest - even during daytime being in the OF is dreamlike, & being there (or in the vicinity) seems to intensify an individual's dream experiences. Flieger classifies the first dream, of the tower, as 'psychological', the second, of Gandalf at Orthanc, as 'psychic' - he is witnessing an actual event - albeit one that actually happened some days prior to Frodo's dream of it, & the third dream, of the grey rain-curtain & the far green country, as 'spiritual'. In each successive dream Frodo goes 'deeper'.

[Fingolfin II]

Davem said:

Secondly, if when Frodo puts on the Ring he 'passes into the otherworld', & so cannot be seen in this one, does that mean that Tom (who can see Frodo clearly when he wears the Ring).like the High Elves, also lives in both worlds at once?

Ah, now that's a very interesting possibility- one that I hadn't seen before. To me, it suggests one of two things- that Tom lived in the Blessed Realm before he came to dwell near Buckland, or that he just has the sight of the 'Ringwraith world'. Gandalf said that those who have dwelt in Valinor live in both world at once, so I think we can safely assume that is true. If it is, that means that Tom was an 'outsider' in the sense that he came to Middle-Earth from the Blessed Realm, which further deepens the mystery of his origin, which I do not wish to debate as Aiwendil has already covered it above, and there are plenty of threads discussing this.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Tom's ability to see Frodo even when he's on 'the other side' only makes sense in light of what we've been saying about Tom here -- he is either a manifestation of (in a literary sense) or spirit from the natural world, so of course he would be able to see everything that exists in nature. If putting on the Ring placed one in a different natural order, then this would mean that Sauron had succeeded in an act of creation that was on par with Eru -- that is, in creating a 'world' of his own.

The fact that Tom can still Frodo when he is invisible to others is proof positive that the Ring is part of a perverted or subverted nature that Sauron has managed to twist to his own purposes, not the gateway to a whole other realm.

[Bêthberry]

Just popping in for a brief comment on the passage which HerenIstarion has discussed. (A pleasure to see you back, HI, even if briefly.)

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!

Before I point out something about the last line, I want to provide this short preamble. Literary allusions can be a conundrum. What role do they play in helping readers interpret passages? Who are they meant for? If readers don't "see" or "get" the allusion, is the meaning lost? Or can it be ascertained elsewhere in the text? And when is an allusion "really" there? If I see a resemblance which another reader does not, what matters that?

"Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!"

Tom teaches the hobbits to sing this, the lesson placed significantly at the end of our current chapter. And, of course, when the hobbits do get into trouble with the nasty barrow wight, Frodo recalls the verse and sings it, in effect summoning Tom's help to save them from the wight.

So, what's the allusion here? Well, the line reminds me of a line from a well-known Psalm, in a passage which for me is familiar because I have seen it used in other English texts.

Psalm 22: 1, 11.

My God, my God, why hst thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

. . .

Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

The psalm provides an eloquent and evocative description of the physical sensations of fear and affliction and succour in the lyric rhythm for which psalms--songs--are revered. Do I think this means Tom is Eru? No. But there is an elemental cry for help to one who is master of himself, the Ring, and his realm.

[Rimbaud]

...so apologies, Madame Bb-fly.

But reverie led me to wonder what the limits of this little charm were. How far away from TB's house would be too far? And what if Sam and Frodo sang the song simultaneously but a mile apart. Hmm? I had a wonderful image of a group of school-uniformed children with clipboards and pens studiously measuring how far they were from the house each time they sang the song, and a flustered-looking Tom constantly capering hither and thither as they made notes...

Facetiousness aside, isn't TB in this instance another example of Tolkien's get-out clauses? These include Eagles, Armies of Dead etc...

Impishly,

~Rim

[Aiwendil]

Fordim wrote:
The fact that Tom can still Frodo when he is invisible to others is proof positive that the Ring is part of a perverted or subverted nature that Sauron has managed to twist to his own purposes, not the gateway to a whole other realm.

And yet we have a lot of quotes suggesting that the Ring does function like a gateway to another realm - a spirit world, one in which the Elves partially exist and in which the Nazgul primarily exist. Not one that Sauron created, and yet one that is supernatural. Tom is supremely "natural". And he has power over nature. But the Ring is a work of artifice, and a gateway into a supernatural world. So Tom does not have power over it - but it also does not have power over him. It's as though Tom exists entirely on the plane of Nature; he can command, and interact with, other parts of Nature, but all that is unnatural, artificial, or supernatural means nothing to him - it cannot affect him and cannot be affected by him.

This is part of why I find the Tom = Aule idea completely ludicrous. The two are diametrically opposed. Tom is pure Nature and Aule pure Craft.

Rimbaud wrote:
Facetiousness aside, isn't TB in this instance another example of Tolkien's get-out clauses? These include Eagles, Armies of Dead etc...

Impishly or not, I think you've hit on an interesting point. There seem, at first glance, to be a lot of dei ex machinis in Tolkien. Just when things seem completely hopeless, something unexpected will come to the rescue. There's Tom twice, the flood at Bruinen, the Rohirrim attacking the Orc band, Gandalf sent back by Iluvatar, the Huorns at Helm's Deep, the Rohirrim arriving at the Pelennor at dawn. And those are just from LotR. Other prominent examples are the Eagles at the Battle of Five Armies and the Valar at the end of the First Age. Indeed, Tolkien's very notion of "eucatastrophe" would seem to involve this kind of thing.

But if these are really such cop-outs, why doesn't anybody ever seem much bothered by them? Because they're not. There's a difference between unexpected and unprepared. In nearly every case, the thing that comes to the rescue is something that has already been set up. Tom saves the Hobbits at the Barrow-downs only after painstakingly teaching them the proper song for summoning him. We hear about the Rohirrim long before they inadvertently rescue Merry and Pippin. And we know that they are on their way to Minas Tirith even if we don't know when to expect them. Moreover, it is almost always through the actions of established protagonists that the deus is allowed to come out of the machina. Tom doesn't just show up on the Barrow-downs; he must be summoned, and that only after Frodo's heroics (though I admit he does show up completely without warning to save them from OMW). The Valar don't simply change their minds about the Noldor; Earendil has to convince them. The Ents don't act on their own; it takes the prompting of Merry and Pippin.

[Mister Underhill]

A new job has seriously impaired my Downs-time and my ability to keep up with, let alone contribute to, these book discussions. But this: There seem, at first glance, to be a lot of dei ex machinae in Tolkien... Indeed, Tolkien's very notion of "eucatastrophe" would seem to involve this kind of thing.
...made me think of an interesting old conversation on the topic of deus ex machina (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2528).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Aiwendil, Tom himself puts his presence at Old Man Willow best:

'Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you.'

Tom = Nature indeed! Here he is admitting that his comings and goings are at one with the 'chance' of circumstance in the created world, and that he is part of (perhaps even subject to?) the "plan."

Another thought has occured to me: in an earlier thread we spoke briefly about women and the pattern that emerges as Frodo moves from feminine refuge to feminine refuge. The first step in this pattern was Mrs. Maggot (the next 'rest' at Crickhollow, and entirely masculine affair, was singularly unsafe and unrestful, as we noted), and now we reach the second occurence in the pattern with Goldberry.

We've already noted the connections between Tom and Maggot, but are there connections between Goldberry and Mrs. Maggot? Both are associated with light, both are associated with domesticity (without being domesticated), both provide nourishment. What is it about the women characters (so far at least) that allows the hobbits to feel so safe, in a way that is perhaps more profound than with men?

[Rimbaud]

Aiwendil - And in many of those cases I agree; but it is an undeniable trait. There have been comments on the issue, even on this forum, especially with regard to the Eagles. And to be honest, it was not really a complaint, more of an observation.

I like your link to eucatastrophe, and I think it is a valid one. I would take this further slightly, and perhaps somewhat off the tone of the thread, and argue that these gods from the machines are less actual gods, or Valar etc, than Tolkien's notion of the hand of fate (as applicable in ME). Fate has been discussed explicitly here on this forum, and now perhaps is not the time for a full-fledged rehash.

However, I will suggest that Tolkien's fairly prescriptive (with reference to Middle-Earth only, let's not have a theological debate on Catholicism and free-will just yet) fate for the Ring and its bearers/seekers is ushered politely along by these Acts. It is perhaps the combination of the event itself and fate's guidance another step down the path when combined with the heroism (inadvertent or not) of the protaganists that is the essence of T's eucatastrophe. It's a combination of choice and powerlessness, leading to success.

A weak analogy is luck in an everyday affair. You kick a football, and no matter how much skill you possess, no player in the world would score without an element of luck, and they know it. It is that combination of power and powerlessness that is the key... I've veered a long way from Tom.

Bringing it back, you are right to point out that calling Tom for help was a choice and to some degree a skill that the Hobbits had to perform, and therefore perhaps not a genuine 'rabbit-out-of-a-hat' get-out clause. However, I would still see him in this way, despite the build up - and distinct from your Rohirrim example above, which I agree is adequately foreshadowed. I will admit though that this unwillingness to see Tom as a 'fair' plot point has its roots in many other matters.

[davem]

It's as though Tom exists entirely on the plane of Nature; he can command, and interact with, other parts of Nature, but all that is unnatural, artificial, or supernatural means nothing to him - it cannot affect him and cannot be affected by him.

I lean towards this idea of Tom as existing 'entirely on the plane of Nature', but then how to explain his power over the Barrow Wight?

And did Tolkien ever explain the nature of the 'otherworld' - how much of a 'world' is it - are there locations within it, for instance, that don't correspond with any place in this 'dimension'? Or is it some kind of 'archetypal' dimension, like the 'matrix' out of which this dimension is formed?

[mark12_30]

the good (elf-friend) and the evil (the ring in his voice).

Fordim: a bit late, but I didn't catch this til Fingolfin quoted it: "ring in his voice" refers to the timbre, the tonal quality of his voice; the joy, firmness, and power in it. Not to 'the Ring' that Frodo carried. Her reference to "the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice" compares him to elvishness in both cases; they have shining eyes and clear musical voices; so does he.



1. To sound, as a bell or other sonorous body, particularly a metallic one.
...
3. To sound loud; to resound; to be filled with a ringing or reverberating sound.
...
4. To continue to sound or vibrate; to resound.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:
I lean towards this idea of Tom as existing 'entirely on the plane of Nature', but then how to explain his power over the Barrow Wight?


Er . . . yes. Well, I didn't think of that. He clearly does have power to command the Barrow-wight, and the Barrow-wight is about as supernatural as one can get. I can't think of much to say to that except that my theory appears to be quite incorrect.

[mark12_30]

There's nature and there's Nature. The Elves are extremely natural, yet they exist in both the shadow-world (the wraith-world, one might call it, except that elves are there too) and they also exist in the "normal, physical world".

I think, Aiwendil, that we will have another one of those divisions similar to the division over truth versus Truth. Maybe it's my Vineyard background! But some of us will say that "Naturally Supernatural" sounds perfectly reasonable, while others will balk at the phrase and call it an iherently illogical contradiction in terms.

Personally, I see no problem with Tom being 'Naturally Supernatural', and having a 'naturally supernatural' power over the Barrow-Wight. In the same vein, the elves' magic is more like Art; it is Natural; it is not about Power, yet it is Powerful.

There was a carpenter like that once.

[Aiwendil]

Mark12_30 wrote:
Personally, I see no problem with Tom being 'Naturally Supernatural', and having a 'naturally supernatural' power over the Barrow-Wight. In the same vein, the elves' magic is more like Art; it is Natural; it is not about Power, yet it is Powerful.


Yes, to a degree I can accept this. But something still makes me uneasy. There is, I think, throughout the Legendarium a contrast drawn between the natural and the artificial, between Nature and Art. It is the difference between the Avari and the Noldor, the difference between Gandalf and Saruman, the difference between Ulmo and Aule, the difference between Finarfin and Feanor. The Elves' magic is Art, which is to say "artificial" - i.e. works of artifice, of skill. Now I don't see any problem with the Elves also appreciating and representing the Natural side of things - no real person can be all artifice or all nature. But I had thought of Tom as representing the purely Natural, without any of the "learned", without any of the curwe so prized by Aule and Feanor. And I think that the simple and obvious fact that he has a power of command over the Barrow-wight poses problems for that view. Also, there's his singing - indeed, it seems unlikely that anything in Arda could be completely devoid of connections with Art, since the world was created in the Ainulindale.

Sorry if that's not very coherent; I'm thinking and typing at the same time.

[HerenIstarion]

Aiwendil - Art as it is forms a part of Nature. After all, the Nature itself is created = act of art. Art rightfully employed = sub creation = imitation of the first Act of Art. Only perverted art, one not conforming to natural pattern, is opposed to Nature.

Besides, it may be argued that only humans when dead leave Nature behind, as they leave the Circles of the World. All else, including ghost world of wraiths, is inside it, though on different plane. Hence, only Supernatural acts (=miracles) are those coming outside of it - i.e. interventions of Eru - Numenor case, resurrection of Gandalf, and the case of Bilbo finding the Ring. Even in those cases, pattern is natural - the island is overflowed, the body is not destroyed, the finding of the ring is, well, just chance-finding.

Dratted lack of time, so I must refer you to, instead of developing it on the spot:

Evil Things (http://69.51.5.41/showpost.php?p=314288&postcount=73)
Acceptance of Mythology (http://69.51.5.41/showpost.php?p=305823&postcount=54)

Those do not deal directly with the issue in hand, but touch upon it as well

cheers

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Aiwendil, Mark and HI: very interesting take on the relation of Art and Nature here. I agree with HI, however, that in ME Nature (ie the created world) takes 'precedence' over Art (ie the practice of the created beings who form a part of Nature). In his works, I think that Tolkien recovered a much more substantive and meaningful conception of Nature: not just trees and hills and all the stuff 'out there' or 'outside' the human, but the sum total of creation, which includes humanity and our own acts of creation, or Art.

Shakespeare put it best in The Winter's Tale:

Yet nature is made better by no mean
But nature makes that mean; so over that art
Which you say adds to nature, is an art
That nature makes.

This is why things like Rings and Barrow-Wights (which are the result of Art, be it the art of Ringmaking or the art of magic) are irrelevant to Tom and Goldberry, who embody the Nature from which all Arts spring.

Rimbaud: I like your football analogy for the eucatastrophe of Tom's appearance, not in the least because it shows the ultimate paradox of Tolkien's attempt to embody nature: Tom's existence as a part of nature is made possible only through Tolkien's art!

[Aiwendil]

Heren Istarion wrote:
Art as it is forms a part of Nature. After all, the Nature itself is created = act of art. Art rightfully employed = sub creation = imitation of the first Act of Art. Only perverted art, one not conforming to natural pattern, is opposed to Nature.

I'm not sure that I agree. Art is artifice - it is by definition artificial. And throughout the Legendarium there is a contrast drawn between Art (craft, skill, lore) and . . . well, something else - I'm not sure whether to call it "nature" or "wisdom" or what. The Noldor, Aule, Sauron, Saruman, Feanor - they all exemplify the Art side of things. I'd say that Gandalf, the Vanyar, Yavanna, and Ulmo, among others, exemplify the other side. Remember Aule's words to Yavanna about the Dwarves - "Nonetheless, they will have need of wood." So there is some kind of opposition between the world of skill and the world of growing things.

But perhaps the opposition I'm seeing is not to be thought of as one between Art and Nature, but rather between Art and something else.

[davem]

He made no secret that he owed his recent knowledge to Farmer Maggot, whom he seemed to regard as a person of more importance than they had imagined. 'There's earth under his old feet, & clay on his fingers; wisdom in his bones, & both his eyes are open.' said Tom

So, what was Tom's relationship to Old Maggot?

Tom slumped along the road, as the light was failing.
Rushey lamps gleamed ahead. He heard a voice him hailing.
'Whoa there!' Ponies stopped, wheels halted sliding.
Tom went plodding past. never looked beside him.

'Ho there! beggarman tramping in the Marish!
What's your business here? Hat all stuck with arrows!
Someone's warned you off, caught you at your sneaking?
Come here! Tell me now what it is you're seeking!
Shire-ale. I'll be bound, though you've not a penny.
I'll bid them lock their doors, and then you won't get any''

'Well, well. Muddy-feet! From one that's late for meeting
away back by the Mithe that's a surly greeting!
You old farmer fat that cannot walk for wheezing,
cart-drawn like a sack, ought to be more pleasing.
Penny-wise tub-on-legs! A beggar can't be chooser,
or else I'd bid you go, and you would be the loser.
Come, Maggot! Help me up! A tankard now you owe me.
Even in cockshut light an old friend should know me!'

Laughing they drove away, in Rushey never halting,
though the inn open stood and they could smell the mailing.
They turned down Maggot's Lane, rattling and bumping,
Tom in the farmer's cart dancing round and jumping.
Stars shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot's house was lighted;
fire in the kitchen burned to welcome the benighted.

Maggot's sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy,
his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty.
Songs they had and merry tales the supping and the dancing;
Goodman Maggot there for all his belt was prancing,
Tom did a hornpipe when he was not quaffing,
daughters did the Springle-ring, goodwife did the laughing.

When others went to bed in hay, fern, or feather,
close in the inglenook they laid their heads together,
old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings
from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and of ridings;
of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;
queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill, and cheaping;
rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,
tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.

Old Maggot slept at last in chair beside the embers.
Ere dawn Tom was gone: as dreams one half remembers,
some merry, some sad, and some of hidden warning.
None heard the door unlocked; a shower of rain at morning
his footprints washed away, at Mithe he left no traces,
at Hays-end they heard no song nor sound of heavy paces.
Bombadil goes Boating

We seem to have an interchange of news - though not set out so clearly; if we highlight what seems to be Tom's contribution its a bit clearer:

old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings
from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and of ridings;
of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;
queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill, and cheaping;
rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,
tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.

Tom informs Maggot of the unnoticed 'mysteries' all around him, while Maggot tells Tom the local gossip. Of course, at one point, Maggot was to have been a creature like Tom, so he goes through a very strange process of evolution - first a violent thug, then, briefly, a supernatural being like Tom, finally ending up a friendly hobbit. We could speculate that Tom's speech to the hobbits praising Maggot, arose out of the 'middle' period, as the Maggot we have in the book, while worthy, doesn't seem all that 'wise'. Yet it may be that his wisdom comes from his listening to Tom, while Tom seems to have learned a lot of what he considers to be 'valuable' information from Maggot. What does this tell us about Tom's values? Maggot simply relates his experiences of the everyday comings & goings of ordinary hobbit folk. Tom seems the spirit of wild, uncontrolled nature, yet the day to day wisdom he passes to Tom make him seem a fellow worthy of respect - are we seeing a kind of ideal relationship between the wild & the tamed, one that the Ents & the Entwives could never manage, & so brought about their destruction? Perhaps we can see Tom & Maggot as complementary 'reflections' of each other.

Which brings something else to mind - we've spent a lot of time exploring Goldberry's character, but why have we ignored Mrs Maggot? She tends the house, the fire, provides the food & ale - she also is a mother, a nurturer & provider, & also seems to be the one running the family - her final words telling Maggot to take care:
'You be careful of yourself, Maggot!' she called. 'Don't go arguing with any foreigners, & come straight back!'

[Lalwendë]

For my own part, I don't see any problem with Tom being a nature spirit and him being able to control the Barrow-Wight. If Tom is indeed some kind of personification of the 'old' god, then I would see him as having the potential for power over whatever may be within the landscape. After all, those entombed within the Barrow Downs ( :eek: ) are now dead, and part of the earth itself. We see how the Downs have a strange power or force impelling the hobbits to go where they ought not, and this suggests that the Wight could be just another aspect of that force or energy of nature which Tom can control. Davem says many posts back that the rhyme Tom teaches the hobbits is almost an invocation; I think Tom knows full well that the Downs have some kind of terrible force, and he wants them to be able to use his 'counter-force'.

Hmmm, it's hard to explain, this line of thought, but to add, I see the Barrow-Wight as something apart from other 'otherworldly' (for want of a better word) forces, such as the Wraiths and Elves. The Wight is a creature seemingly bound to his Barrow, and hence, to the land.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

When I began to read the next chapter, I glanced at the opposite page, the end of this chapter, and a detail caught my eye. Tom is warning the hobbits against the Barrows and the Wights and: advised them to pass barrows by on the west-side, if they chanced to stray near one. I have a vague memory of a discussion on that thought some time back, but don't remember which thread it was. To pick up that question here - why on the west-side? What significance does that advice have? Does it have something to do with Valinor being in the west?

Of course, since it was foggy when they got there, I don't suppose that the hobbits would have known where west was, even if they had seen the barrows...

[Aiwendil]

Does it have something to do with Valinor being in the west?


That's what I've always assumed. West is the Good direction in Tolkien's mythology, apparently because that's where the Valar chose to dwell after the destruction of the Lamps - a west wind is always a good thing, for example. It seems to me that this is simply a result of the geography of Europe. To a European, west is the direction of the Sea and of sea-longing - just as here on the east coast of the U.S. I've always thought of east as the good or special direction. A large part of the feeling of the west in the Legendarium can be summed up in the image of a person standing on the shore, gazing westward toward Valinor.

Of course, in C.S. Lewis's Narnia books, east is the Good direction, which would seem to blow a hole in my theory.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I agree with a lot of that, Aiwendil, and have often considered it.
it always seems that east is where darkness lies in Tolkien. Save that in the earlier days Melkor dwelt in the north in Angband, so that may be an exception.
We see that the Old forest was on the Eastern side of the shire, the Barrow downs (not entirely evil ;) ) was east of Bombadill's house and Mordor is often referred to as the east. Boromir's dream counts for this,

In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West, a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice...

Here again the East is the place where the darkness seems to be, and the west is where hope and goodness comes from.
I always found it interesting how there are two ends of this spectrum... in the North West of middle Earth is the Shire, here there is a pace loving folk with goodness spewing out of their ears. Moreover almost diagonally opposite in the South east there is Mordor with black malice and nastiness.
Any thoughts?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting thoughts, Aiwendil and Hookbill! Another example occurs to me - at the beginning of TTT, when the three remaining members of the Fellowship sing their song after Boromir's death, there is no stanza for the East Wind. Gimli says: You left the East Wind to me, but I will say naught of it. Aragorn answers: In Minas Tirith they endure the East Wind, but they do not ask it for tidings. Apparently not only Men, even the Dwarves do not like the East.

[Lalwendë]

Why does Tom advise the hobbits to pass the Barrows on the western side?

Well, in addition to the other good answers on here, I'm not sure if it says, but perhaps the barrows open to the east, hence the hobbits would not have to pass the threshold of the barrows. It may also be that the shadows do not lie as long on that side. It could also tie in with the whole 'ancient' feel of these three chapters, in that the hobbits would be passing the barrows 'sunwise', following the path of the sun, rather than pasing them 'widdershins' (i.e. in an anti-clockwise direction) which is most unlucky.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Estelyn said,
Apparently not only Men, even the Dwarves do not like the East

Gimli is a dwarf of Erobor, Do you think he still has the fear of the east as the lonely mountain was in the east and inhabited by Smoug when he was a child. Perhaps in the years after Smoug came there the dwarves gained a fear and anger against the east. Maybe I'm assuming too much.

Now, I think we've stayed away from the chapter too much...

Near the beginning of the chapter, Gold Berry makes a statement;

'Then all this strange land belongs to him?'
'No indeed!" she answered, and her smile faded, 'That would indeed be a burden,' She added in a low voice, as if to herself.

Now, when she says this 'almost to herself', I got the strangest feeling that this was important. Her smile fades and she says this in a low voice, I think that this is, maybe, an indication of one of Tolkien's main messages in the whole book. That is that; Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
She says this as if she has seen it happen. Perhaps there was some master of the lands who came to some unfortunate fate. Or it may be that she is thinking of her mother, the river woman, perhaps she 'owns' the land, and so she knows how burdensome the power is.
However, by the same token, this could just be something Tolkien put in to add more of a mystery to the characters of Tom and Goldberry.
Any thought?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Ack, judging the last few posts I am entirely out of left field, or should I say East field here, ( I still have not caught up in reading this thread, but am somewhere in the midst of Friday’s posts.)

Just wanted to propose something before we move on to the next chapter…

Tom is referred to the master, but master of what? I personally feel that he is the master simply of his own fear and therein lays his power. Perhaps he is to be viewed as an archetype of what created beings were meant to be and that is why he seems not to fit any race fully, rather than being seen as a nature spirit or some thing in the ‘other’ category. At first I was remembering the mention in the letter at the beginning of the Silmarilian that men had fallen once before, and we aren’t told how that exactly came about. Was Tom a man from that time who somehow remained untouched? Probably not if he was alive when Middle Earth was still starlit.

But Tom, not contending with nature, exists in a somewhat peaceful balance with it, despite its (and his) eccentricities. Goldberry is a nature spirit who has a powerfully good/beneficial/life supporting aspect, as does water, but I do not think that she is tame. The union of Tom and Goldberry could be representative of the relationship created beings were supposed to have with nature.

But thinking back to the first time I ever read this chapter, I remember feeling a bit uneasy, wondering why exactly Tom and Goldberry weren’t present at breakfast and so on. Were the hobbits going to be lulled into another precarious situation by this rather seemingly mismatched couple that worked so well together? Were they off stoking the fire under a large kettle out back?

[Guinevere]

Interesting thoughts, Hilde!
I'm trying to catch up after being away on holidays...

I must confess, I have rather mixed feelings about Tom Bombadil...I know that many find him ridiculous but just as many are fond of him. (In any case I'm glad they left him out of the movies!)
Nobody minds if hobbits sing funny verses and dance on tables, but Tom's "merry dol ! ring a dong dillo!" and his capering around do irritate me a bit. I find his behaviour hard to reconcile with the fact that he is so age-old and wise and detached and powerful in his own way.

But I guess that these two sides are somehow a part of Tolkien himself : the "high and noble " as well as the enjoyment of nonsense and fun.

Come to think of it, it's a bit similar with the Elves : in "The Hobbit" the Rivendell -Elves are poking fun at the dwarves and sing a lot of nonsensical verses and don't behave dignified at all! In the LotR itself the Elves are mostly serious, although Gildor and his companions approach with "mingled song and laughter" and Sam remarks that they are "so old and young, so gay and sad" .

As for Goldberry: I find Frodo's reaction to her interesting , he stands enchanted, recites poetry and stammers...almost if he was a bit falling in love with her... ;) "less keen and lofty was the delight but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange."

About "the ring in his voice" : I was puzzled that Fordim picked this out and saw it as "the Ring" . I thought this rather far-fetched and I agree with Helen, that it only meant a ringing voice (when he recited the poetry, i guess). (Especially since Goldberry said that it tells that Frodo is an Elf-friend.)

[alatar]

Excellent discussion, especially regarding Goldberry. I see her now in a completely new light.

That said, I've been thinking about the lack of symmetry in the hobbits's dreams. In the encounter with Old Man Willow, Merry and Pippin are trapped inside the tree, and Frodo is almost drowned. Sam is not attacked. I assume that Tolkien wanted to have Frodo almost drowned so that he would be available later to help the others (along with Sam). If he were one of the twain trapped within Old Man Willow, this may have been more difficult.

During the first night at Tom's and Goldberry's house, three of the four hobbits have nightmare-like dreams. Frodo dreams of the Black Riders, as that's what's on his mind. Sam does not dream. The other two:
At his side Pippin lay dreaming pleasantly; but a change came over his dreams and he turned and groaned. Suddenly he woke, or thought he had waked, and yet still heard in the darkness the sound that had disturbed his dream: tip-tap, squeak: the noise was like branches fretting in the wind, twig-fingers scraping wall and window: creak, creak, creak. He wondered if there were willow-trees close to the house; and then suddenly he had a dreadful feeling that he was not in an ordinary house at all, but inside the willow and listening to that horrible dry creaking voice laughing at him again. He sat up, and felt the soft pillows yield to his hands, and he lay down again relieved. He seemed to hear the echo of words in his ears: ‘Fear nothing! Have peace until the morning! Heed no nightly noises!’ Then he went to sleep again.

It was the sound of water that Merry heard falling into his quiet sleep: water streaming down gently, and then spreading, spreading irresistibly all round the house into a dark shoreless pool. It gurgled under the walls, and was rising slowly but surely. ‘I shall be drowned!’ he thought. It will find its way in, and then I shall drown.’ He felt that he was lying in a soft slimy bog, and springing up he set his fool on the corner of a cold hard flagstone. Then he remembered where he was and lay down again. He seemed to hear or remember hearing: ‘Nothing passes doors or windows save moonlight and starlight and the wind off the hill-top.’ A little breath of sweet air moved the curtain. He breathed deep and fell asleep again.

I can understand Pippin's dream; his horrible experience is on the tip of his brain. Merry's? Why would he have what to me should be Frodo's dream? Wasn't Merry one of those hobbits that would get his feet wet? Was another dream like Pip's too repetitious, and the one that may have originally been conceived for Frodo substituted?

[Eönwë]

I think that Tom and Goldberry are the perfect couple, just as Tolkien wished lifewould be. They work together and understand each other. I think that Tom is meant to be the the perfect man and Goldberry the perfect woman. Tom has power, but he does not use it unless he needs to. He does not abuse it. He canget anywhere and help anyone, if they just ask. He is perfect. Goldberry is Tolkien's perfect woman. She is kind, and loving, and beautiful, but powerful, not a helpless person like so many women in the past.

I think that they are meant to be perfect, how nature made us, comparable to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Free of care, happy, together.

I think that Tom is not a nature spirit, rather, he is nature. He is part of the Music of the Ainur, which created the world. I think that is why he sings. Because he is part of the music, he can tap into it, reach into th music beyond the normal amount and use its power. He is very powerful. He is like the trunk of a tree from which power spreads out. He knows that the barrow wights are evil (maybe he made his land there to protect people, but then, why not just make his home in Mordor), so he Uses the Music.

I don't think he is more or less powerful than Sauron or Morgoth, I think he is on a different level. He can go onto Sauron's plane but he can just go to any dimension in his realm.

Tom Bombadil is a guardian of his realm, just as Melian was, but in a different way. Tom did not need to use enchantments, he just was. He did everything himself, and didn't just leave it to enchantments like the Maiar and Valar.

That is why Tom and Goldberry are Nature. If you look at the description of Goldberry (mentioned above numerous times so I will not repeat it here), you find out she is not like an elf. She is not like one of the Valar, or Maiar, or even Eldar. She is not a celestial being of other worlds. She is more mortal, yet immortal in a natural everlasting way, the way the cycles of he world happen: Spring, summer, autumn, winter, spring , summer, autumn, winter and so on, however she is not immortal in the way of a Valar, of a something unmovable and untouching, or immortal like, Eru, floating, creating, unmoving yet all- powerful. i think this is what Tolkien is trying to get across.


Tm Bombadil is the spirit of Arda and actually of Tolkien himself.

Some interesing (unanswered questions) about this chapter:

1. Is Tom the Guardian of the flame imperishable

2. Why are the vegetarian? (only eating cream and honey and such things (maybe they asked the animals to make these for them?)

3. Is Sam special? (Why doesn't he get a dream?)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Eönwë, the vegetarian meal was something I also noticed at this reading - it reminds me of the meal Bilbo, Gandalf, and the Dwarves had at Beorn's home in The Hobbit. I wonder if it has something to do with Tom and Goldberry's attitude toward nature - they do not *own* any of it. Perhaps that precludes making a meal of living creatures. Tolkien must have had a reason for putting that in there, as it certainly did not reflect his own life style - he enjoyed his meat.

Admittedly I am not a big Tom Bombadil fan, but when reading the chapter this time, I found myself thinking how fascinating it would have been to be there with the Hobbits! Wouldn't you have loved to hear the stories of the early ages of Arda? He seems to go backwards in time with his tales.

I noticed a difference between Tom's poems - more nonsensical, light-hearted and folksy - and Frodo's lines in praise of Goldberry. To me, these are slightly reminiscent of the Elves' songs to Elbereth, a bit higher and nobler than Tom's sings, as befits an Elf-friend, perhaps.

Interesting that Frodo's question about Old Man Willow was answered in the morning rather than in the dark - much like Gandalf telling about the Ring, Wraiths, etc. in Bag End. "Such matters were best left until daylight," was what the Wizard said there. Tom says, "Some things are ill to hear when the world's in shadow." What would you imagine to be the reason for that?

Tolkien uses Tom's tales to build more suspense concerning the Barrow-downs. After all those warnings and precautions, it is narratively inevitable that something should happen there, don't you think?!

For those who thought Gildor should have helped the Hobbits more actively, here is mention of something he did - alerting Tom.

Did you notice that Goldberry withdraws early in the evenings, and the males carry on talking until late? I wonder why - does she need more sleep, or is there another reason?

One line impressed me this time, sticking with me for no apparent reason: "Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?" (...so much so that I have taken it for my signature.)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Addendum:

One word stood out for me this re-reading - penthouse! It sounds like a part of the house that is built on to it - does anyone know what the word means precisely in this context?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

A thought struck me.

While writing an essay on the Bombadil poem for university, I had to try and make some sort of interpretation of the character based on his actions. I was quite worried about this, seeing as any interpretation of Bombadil is bound to come up against opposition from a hundred other Tolkien fans. ;)
But this thing struck me as a useful way of looking at him. Here is what I said...

The voice in the Bombadil poem is almost childish; it is very playful and rarely threatening. Even though some of the images are quite horrific; a tree that eats people and the ghostly Barrow Wight could well be terror inducing if allowed their share of description and development (which, by-the-by they get in The Lord of the Rings).
However, Tom seems to be able to deal with these horrors quite easily. His songs appear to have a certain power over them and even the badgers submit to his will when he sings. The picture we are left with is one of a very unusual character who, no matter what terrors await him, is able to deal with them calmly and efficiently. The lessons in this poem (I do not think they are the point of the poem at large, however) point towards a life where the horrors do not own people. The ending of the poem emphasises Tom’s attitude to life;

Old Tom Bombadil heeded not the voices,
Taps, knocks, dancing feet, all the nightly noises;
Slept till the sun arose, then sang like a starling:
‘Hey! Come derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!’
Sitting on the door-step chopping sticks of willow,
While fair Goldberry combed her tresses yellow.

The impression we get of Bombadil’s home life is one of complete freedom, not enthralled by the terrors of the forest and even taking a previously threatening water spirit for his wife. The playful words of his nonsensical song empress upon us how startlingly strange he is. When we live in a world where the horrors (in Tolkien’s day, it may have been the threat of Hitler’s Germany) are broadcast to us daily, Tom’s attitude seems singularly unnerving. What some have dubbed the ‘childish innocence’ of the poem plays on this, exposing the fears as unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Not that Tom does not deal with the problems, but rather, does not let them dominate his life.

Now, with regards to this chapter in the book I think this still applies. Bombadil has this 'detached' attitude, the dangers of the wood don't scare him, nor do the Barrow Wights (we'll have to work harder, folks :p ). Whatever Tom is, his attitude is rather startling, isn't it? The only thing that worries him is damaging the water lilies, seemingly.

Any thoughts?

[Bêthberry]

A thought struck me.

While writing an essay on the Bombadil poem for university, I had to try and make some sort of interpretation of the character based on his actions. I was quite worried about this, seeing as any interpretation of Bombadil is bound to come up against opposition from a hundred other Tolkien fans. ;)
But this thing struck me as a useful way of looking at him. Here is what I said...


The voice in the Bombadil poem is almost childish; it is very playful and rarely threatening. Even though some of the images are quite horrific; a tree that eats people and the ghostly Barrow Wight could well be terror inducing if allowed their share of description and development (which, by-the-by they get in The Lord of the Rings).
However, Tom seems to be able to deal with these horrors quite easily. His songs appear to have a certain power over them and even the badgers submit to his will when he sings. The picture we are left with is one of a very unusual character who, no matter what terrors await him, is able to deal with them calmly and efficiently. The lessons in this poem (I do not think they are the point of the poem at large, however) point towards a life where the horrors do not own people. The ending of the poem emphasises Tom’s attitude to life;

Old Tom Bombadil heeded not the voices,
Taps, knocks, dancing feet, all the nightly noises;
Slept till the sun arose, then sang like a starling:
‘Hey! Come derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!’
Sitting on the door-step chopping sticks of willow,
While fair Goldberry combed her tresses yellow.

The impression we get of Bombadil’s home life is one of complete freedom, not enthralled by the terrors of the forest and even taking a previously threatening water spirit for his wife. The playful words of his nonsensical song empress upon us how startlingly strange he is. When we live in a world where the horrors (in Tolkien’s day, it may have been the threat of Hitler’s Germany) are broadcast to us daily, Tom’s attitude seems singularly unnerving. What some have dubbed the ‘childish innocence’ of the poem plays on this, exposing the fears as unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Not that Tom does not deal with the problems, but rather, does not let them dominate his life.


Now, with regards to this chapter in the book I think this still applies. Bombadil has this 'detached' attitude, the dangers of the wood don't scare him, nor do the Barrow Wights (we'll have to work harder, folks :p ). Whatever Tom is, his attitude is rather startling, isn't it? The only thing that worries him is damaging the water lilies, seemingly.

Any thoughts?

Well now, Hookbill, you've got me thinking of a whole new angle to our perennial question "Who or What is Tom Bombadil?" (btw, do you have any idea how easy it is and how many ways there are to mispell that name? Wait, I suspect you might.)

It's your bit about not being "owned" by terrors and trouble and tribulations that got me thinking about this concept of manhood. It's quite a feature in the literature just before Tolkien's time and there are two examples of it that are well known indeed. (As an aside, they garner just about as much ridicule and parody as Tolkien's Tom does.)


It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


This is just the last stanza that stands out so much to me. Why, Goldberry could verily have taken her words to Frodo about Tom from this stanza!

And just as yet another aside (of which this post seems to have many) here is a photograph of the author of Invictus, William Ernest Henley. Even granted that many late Victorian gentlemen were rather bushy-faced, his resemblance to many painters' depictions of Bombadil could well be one of those happy happenstances of cultural serendipity.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/MimsyBorogroves/BombadilWilliamErnestHenley.jpg

It must have been rather difficult to see the stiff upper lip under all that beard, but we must remember that not all expositors on this ideal of manhood wore full beards. I believe that Kipling, for one, sported only a remarkable mustache. And speaking of Kipling of course there is his remarkable expression of he who is not owned by anything. Note how the reward which Kipling suggests is the very power which Bombadil holds.


Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!


And isn't it just the thing for our four young hobbits at the start of all their adventuring to find a role model for stoic manly virtues? No wonder their post-prandial smokes and talks with Tom in the absence of Goldberry is so important!!

Yes, I think you've hit upon something here, Hookbill, and I don't think it's rock you've stubbed your toe on.

[Eönwë]

He is probably the only person who has power in lotr who is not affected by it.
Or rather, maybe he is affected by it, but just uses it in normal daily life.
But probably he always had it, and just decided to live as a normal person, except that the normal problems and troubles just don't happen. He just sort of averts the bad away so that he can do whatever he wants and lead a fun life.

[Rumil]

At the house of Tom Bombadil,

well probably about time I added my ha'penny worth of speculation to the (surely ultimately unknowable) in-story origins of Tom and Goldberry.

Of Tom, I must say I've had him down as a junior Maiar, or similar spirit of lesser degree. He seems to have been in Middle Earth for a very long time. I wonder if he was one of the 'staff' of the Valar (perhaps an understudy of Yavanna) who worked on forming Arda, but never left? By the third age he has become so attached to his patch that he now fulfils a role similar to the 'Genius loci' of classical mythology, the anthropomorphisation of a particular place. Though JRRT seems to have little truck with classical mythology I think such an idea was popular with many ancient peoples, especially the Celts.

The Forest appears to be Nature presented as 'red in tooth and claw' to a certain degree, the hobbits are not in a tamed landscape but in an ancient, wild survivor of ancient times, with danger as well as beauty. Is Old Man Willow any more to be blamed for seeking some extra nourishment than a Venus flytrap swallowing unwary insects?

Now Goldberry seems again to have a classical aspect, namely the naiads, water spirits of streams and rivers. Their counterparts, the tree-spirit dryads have been changed way out of recognition in LoTR into the ents. Again the naiads became genii loci and many Roman shines were built at springs. This survives in some little way today, for who has never thrown a penny into a wishing-well? Therefore Goldberry again could be a Maiar-esque spirit much like Tom.

Well, so much for my wittering. Down to the more concrete!

Further to the farming aspect of T&G we have candles, probably beeswax, blankets, likely wool (and mention of flocks of sheep on the Downs in times gone by) and the stone construction of Tom's house itself. So they had access to wool (could have kept sheep or maybe collected wool from the hedgerows etc where sheep tend to luxuriate in a good scratch in the spring). Also Tom must either have had a quarry or recycled building stone from the ruined settlements of the Dunedain. Mention is made both of a vegetable garden (beans on poles) and a flower garden.

Meanwhile, on Barrow-bypassing, here's the link that Esty mentioned above -
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1852

Now a thought which has never struck me before, (doh!). Tom fails to become invisible when he puts on the ring. Sauron, as far as I can make out, was not invisible during his epic battle with Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad on Mount Doom, though he was wearing the ring. This seems to argue that Tom and Sauron are at least similar types of beings, be that Maiar or related spirits. Perhaps invsibility was one of the things implied by Gandalf when he said that the ring would give power according to the stature of the wearer, ie to elect whether to be invisible or not when wearing the ring?

[mark12_30]

... how fascinating it would have been to be there with the Hobbits! Wouldn't you have loved to hear the stories of the early ages of Arda? He seems to go backwards in time with his tales.


I've often felt the same. More detail, Professor. WHAT were those stories! But that's his style; wave a little at the ancient-ness of it, and you create the wonder. I wonder, all right, I wonder!

... Interesting that Frodo's question about Old Man Willow was answered in the morning rather than in the dark - much like Gandalf telling about the Ring, Wraiths, etc. in Bag End. "Such matters were best left until daylight," was what the Wizard said there. Tom says, "Some things are ill to hear when the world's in shadow." What would you imagine to be the reason for that?


Because it's scarier in the dark. THe ringwraiths wait to attack until dark because fear is stronger then. It makes their job easier.

Did you notice that Goldberry withdraws early in the evenings, and the males carry on talking until late? I wonder why - does she need more sleep, or is there another reason?

Maybe she's giving the men-folk some space. And maybe she's heard, or knows, those stories already... Maybe she's weaving their good-night-sleep over them. Or maybe she's preparing for her washing day.

One line impressed me this time, sticking with me for no apparent reason: "Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?" (...so much so that I have taken it for my signature.)

True; if we are not part of some story, what are we?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

By the third age he has become so attached to his patch that he now fulfils a role similar to the 'Genius loci' of classical mythology, the anthropomorphisation of a particular place. Though JRRT seems to have little truck with classical mythology I think such an idea was popular with many ancient peoples, especially the Celts.
I think it will be more appropriate to finish the last sentence with words: "...especially everyone." :D

Also Tom must either have had a quarry or recycled building stone from the ruined settlements of the Dunedain.
I would say the latter is more probable; after all, this is how it used to be done in the Middle Ages, and I would think that if for example Bree had stone houses, then surely they were built this way.

Now a thought which has never struck me before, (doh!). Tom fails to become invisible when he puts on the ring. Sauron, as far as I can make out, was not invisible during his epic battle with Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad on Mount Doom, though he was wearing the ring. This seems to argue that Tom and Sauron are at least similar types of beings, be that Maiar or related spirits. Perhaps invsibility was one of the things implied by Gandalf when he said that the ring would give power according to the stature of the wearer, ie to elect whether to be invisible or not when wearing the ring?
That's plausible, however I'd be careful on using the words "Tom" and "power" too close to each other. As it is said in the Council of Elrond, it's not that he would have power over the Ring, but that the Ring has no power over him. So this is how I would attribute that. Sort-of existencially speaking, Tom doesn't have anything to hide, so he feels no need to become invisible, and he does not become invisible. And I'd say the incident doesn't tell that because the Ring works (or rather, doesn't work) in one aspect similarly on Tom and Sauron, it tells anything particular about their similar... substance, or how should I say that :) One possibility is that for example Sauron wanted to represent visible power, so he wouldn't want to become invisible in the first place; or maybe he would, but the power was so great that he simply couldn't be invisible anymore even if he wanted, if you know what I mean? Tom, on the other hand, I think did not simply even consciously, and not even subconsciously think about becoming invisible, or in any way interacting with the Ring in the first place. He simply thought it nothing more than a simple ring (a piece of gold, indeed), and so it had no power over him. I would once again point out the fantastic essay of Hookbill, which he quoted several posts above - if you think about the Ring as one of the things which he "does not let dominate his life", this well goes with the idea.

[Eönwë]

West is the Good direction in Tolkien's mythology, apparently because that's where the Valar chose to dwell after the destruction of the Lamps - a west wind is always a good thing, for example. It seems to me that this is simply a result of the geography of Europe. To a European, west is the direction of the Sea and of sea-longing - just as here on the east coast of the U.S. I've always thought of east as the good or special direction. A large part of the feeling of the west in the Legendarium can be summed up in the image of a person standing on the shore, gazing westward toward Valinor.

Of course, in C.S. Lewis's Narnia books, east is the Good direction, which would seem to blow a hole in my theory.


Maybe Tolkien is looking at it from a mainland European way, and C.S. Lewis is looking at it from an English (Wales doesn't even have an East coast, and Lewis was not Scottish or Irish).


Anyway...

I seem to feel that for some reason, Tom is on a different level to the ring, he is more eathy, more base material (I don't really know how to put it).

Tom is unaffected by mortal troubles, and even Maiaric(?) troubles, I think (except for the whole "Last as he was first" thing). But he is still alive, which I think makes him even more interesting, not like the Ainu who are not really alive (I supose you could argue agaisnt that...)

But now I've been reminded of a completely different idea which I mentioned above: Is the fact that Sam doesn't doesn't dream here important? Does it show that he is not affected by things? ... Or am I just overthinking an unimportant idea?

[Curunir]

I've thought about Bombadil a bit. I've also posted this in a different thread, because I figured more people would read it that way.

I have a little theory about Bombadil, and it goes like this.
e may be an anomaly, but in my view he is quintessential to the books, because he shows Tolkiens world is essentially one of powers.
This is evident when Gandalf tells Frodo about his imprisonment in Orthanc.

('Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many
powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against
some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming)

This is defined in a spheric, or topical world way. Each 'power' (this is of course the Valar and Maiar, but also the Istari and the ringwielders) has its field of influence, or care/stewardship. This is evident in Rivendell and Lorien being places where the decay of the world is halted for some time, and the memory of the ancient days of Middle-Earth can still be felt. Elrond and Galadriel both have, through their rings, a stewardship of sorts, but of a physical place.

Gandalf is also a steward, but in a more general sense: he is a carer for the children of Iluvatar. He says exactly this to Theoden on his suicide rampage ('I too, am a steward')

From the Silmarillion:
Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience (...) though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. (Silmarillion)

He is after all, ‘a servant of the secret fire’ and ‘wielder of the flame of Anor’ (which is the ring Narya, the ring of fire):

It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination, and despair (in other words, evoking hope from others around the wielder), as well as giving resistance to the weariness of time: "Take now this Ring," he said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill" (Círdan the Shipwright to Gandalf)..

Being a power (a good power at least) essentially involves being a steward. Look also at Melian and her girdle. Aragorn who spends many years protecting the Shire and other parts of the world.
Saruman who becomes steward (and eventually a locked-in gatekeeper) of his own fortress. This is true for Sauron as well, who wields his power in the form of influence (eg. pulling snow from Caradhras). His servants perform the physical acts. All the more due to his no longer having a physical body. And take Denethor, he is no more than a steward. As opposed to Theoden who is a steward to his people ('what will you say of the children of Rohan, who lay dead at helm's deep' as he says to Saruman.. imagine Denethor saying that).

To me, Bombadil is so important because he symbolizes exactly that. By showing us the gentle but all-encompassing power Bombadil wields when he is within his own domain (evident because he is unaffected by the rings power, and has power to hold Old man willow and the Barrow Wights), Tolkien in a way shows us how and why these powers exist in the world. As has been remarked here, Bombadils interest and influence go no further than the borders of his land, the boundaries of his sphere. Therein he is all-knowing and omnipotent (again, in a gentle way).

As such he is to me Tolkiens way of illustrating the way powers manifest themselves and interact in his world. Bombadil also makes us see the difference in the way the good and evil powers manifest themselves. Was not the fall of Melkor a result of the fact he was not satisfied with where the limits of his influence or care lay, though they were the broadest of all the ainur. His very aim was to reshape the world as he saw fit (changing the songs of the other ainur
, destroying the lamps ). But when the Valar retire to valinor after the destruction of the lamps, he literally dilutes his essence, his power all over Arda, marring everything. Hence, he is not strong enough to withstand the Valar at the time of his first imprisonment (in the Halls of Mandos).

"The Morgoth" was a term given to the person of Melkor/Morgoth in his complete power over the matter of Arda: therefore Dragons, Trolls, Orcs, and even Angband were in a way part of "The Morgoth", but not part of Melkor/Morgoth. While Melkor/Morgoth was eventually executed by the Valar, the only way to destroy "The Morgoth" would be to completely destroy all of Arda and render it anew: a task the Valar could not do without also destroying the Children of Ilúvatar and therefore unthinkable.
source: http://www.indopedia.org/Morgoth.html#Names_and_Titles

That's why the valar can only banish his fëa and cast it into the void, instead of destroying him. (see also: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/F%C3%ABa). So in this way Melkor as a power has gone the furthest, dispersing himself so his influence is felt everywhere, but at a high price.

But I digress. I think the notion of stewardship is essential here. Being a steward not for one's own good or to counter one's own fears (Saruman, Denethor), but for the good of the world. This is of course a very Christian thing and biblical (man is a steward to world) which is not surprising given Tolkiens background.

To me Bombadil illustrates this so well because of the small sphere of his stewardship. And his comical reaction to the ring. He is the only incorruptible power (remember, Gandalf wouldn't touch the ring), save Illuvatar perhaps. Of course this supports the theory he is (in the logic of the tale) the embodiment of Illuvatar. But.. I think it's better to interpret him as an enigma illustrating some essential points of Tolkiens world and philosophy, then to try and force him into the laws of logic inherent to this world. Tolkien said something similar in one of his letters (can't be bothered to look it up, sorry :p).

Too bad every adaptation of Tolkiens work (all movies, radio plays etc.) I know of has failed to see Bombadils significance.

[Eönwë]

Lately I have had a new thought about Tom Bombadil.

Instead of the carefree man who cares nothing about the world around him, I now see him as an example of near perfect self-discipline (at least, but the time of LOTR. He seems a little more "uncouth", shall we say, in AoTB).

First of all, look at his surroundings. He lives in a quiet place in the edge of the world, where no-one passes. Out of the way, you might say. There, he lives a quiet existence, within his own land, not impinging upon anybody else's land. His land is a land where nobody likes to go. For instance, it has the Old Forest, which has become dark and evil because of Old Man Willow's influence, and hates people, especially hobbits, particularly after they burnt some of the forest. More importantly, his land includes the Barrow Downs. This dark, damp, misty place is a traveller's nightmare, and people try to avoid it as much as they can. There is a dread about the place, and people for miles around had probably heard rumours about the Barrow Wights and their foul deeds. Most people would be intimidated to have such a place near their home, or even within many miles of their home. But Tom Bombadil doesn't mind. He walks in the forest, with wicked trees, and in the Barrow Downs, among the wights, yet no harm comes to him.

The usage of his power is also interesting. We hear that "Tom is master", yet we don't see him bending others' wills to his own. Unlike Sauron, we don't see him trying to control anyone or take over any more land. He has an immense power, yet we see that unlike most others, he is not corrupted by it. He doesn't try to dominate. He is the master, and only intervenes when he has to (for example, saving the hobbits). But generally, he lets everything get on with its own existence. Bombadil also wanders around his land, never getting tired of it,, never seeking any more. Instead of trying to have more, like everyone else in Middle-Earth, he is content with what he has. More than that, he is happy with what he has. The fact is, within his lands, he can do whatever he wants, but he never goes out of the borders he sets himself.

Next, look at Tom himself. He is in the shape of a man, yet he is far more powerful. He is grounded to the earth, to Arda, completely, even more so than elves. You can see this by the way that he can talk to trees, and banish wights. The fact is, Arda itself is has both sides, and Tom is master of both. One is the side of the living, the normal side, and the other is the darker side, the side of spirits and Ainu and dead elves, the side that Frodo sees when he puts on the ring. The wight, for instance, is present on both sides. he is made of bones in the physical world, but his main power lies on the other side, where he is a powerful spirit capable of evil spells. Tom Bombadil gets rid of both. He sends away the wight ("banishes the spirit/demon") and as this is what is holding the physical side together, the Barrow Wight's physical manifestation is also destroyed. His power on the earth side is shown in his ability to talk to trees, and cover great distance at speed. Just as powerful as he is on the spirit side, the world of darkness, he is connected to the Earth and nature. I think that this is where his real power lies, rather than in the shadow world, and that he is so firmly grounded in the natural physical world that maybe some of this power passes onto the shadow world, and I think that that is what gives him power there. He is a figment of nature, singing, and walking among the trees who interact with him. He acts with the flow of the world, rather than trying to change it like Men, or keep it the same like elves.

This is an important aspect because he goes along with the world like water in a river. He doesn't try to do anything to hinder anything or start something new, and just accepts the way things go. The reason that I think that the ring has no power over him is that he is so manifested in the world of light that he cannot be dragged into the world of shadow, even by the power of the ring. The ring's main power is in the shadow world, the realm of Ainu and of elves, whereas Tom Bombadil's main power lies in the land of light, with living, breathing creatures and growing trees. That is why the ring has no power over him and he has no power over the ring. They are on different planes, which don't cross over. This is probably also why he can see Frodo. The border between both worlds doesn't exist for him, and because he is so manifested in the normal world his influence spreads far into the other. He sees Frodo as though he hasn't put the ring on because for Tom, Frodo hasn't left the normal world, whereas for others, Frodo has crossed the border. But I digress. The point is, Tom has incredible powers, and complete control over his realm, but he doesn't seek to dominate others.

I'm sure that Tom, if he wanted to could set his sights on all of Middle-Earth, and try to make that his land. He would probably be able to do this, and have all of Middle Earth at his beck and call. But this would go against the nature of tom himself, so this could never happen with him being the same Tom Bombadil. Failing that Tom could (with his immense power) make his land the greatest fortress in the world, and from there launch an attack on the rest of Middle-Earth, but again, that is not his character. He prefers to sit, and watch, as the rest of the world go by, and let it go forwards on his own, without his intervention.0

His singing is another vital aspect of him which seems to annoy many Tolkien fans. But this is a way of showing the way Tom's power works. It is a gentle power, not a harsh spell (contrast this to Gandalf speaking the words on the ring in the Black Speech at the Council of Elrond). It is song, and in this case it stands for happiness, peace and contentment. There is so much going in the world, but he doesn't help, because he probably knows he would just complicate matters further, and it would just be another case of external intervention. There is probably much more going on in that head of his than anyone knows, or can even guess. He is in this mindset (whether naturally or by his choice) and doesn't leave it. Also, there is a very primitive about him singing to the sentient trees (In many old myths they are spirits, but they can't be here because that would conflict with the legendarium). The singing also ties him to the music of the Ainur, and maybe shows him as a personification of that.

Tom Bombadil is generous and doesn't even show any signs of temptation. He is in a state where his mind is free from doing such things, and he probably doesn't even think about trying to take over the world. Whether he was like that from the beginning, or whether he trained himself to be like that is anyone's guess, but he definitely had many ages to perfect his outlook on the world if the truth is the latter. He allows things to pass him by, and doesn't reminisce on the past in a nostalgic way, except very rarely, and only when he has a reason to remember (for example when he finds the jewellery in the mound of the wight). The ring, a powerful object that tempted even a Maia like Gandalf, has no effect on him. He doesn't even make the hobbits obey the rules of his land, but allows them to things how they want, and only intervenes when things get dangerous. And not only does he not impose his will on them, but he invites them as guests to his house.

All in all, I think that Tom Bombadil represents an image of self discipline. He actually seems to me like a bit like an ideal Buddhist as well: Not attached to anything, allowing things to come and go, yet showing compassion to everyone (Except maybe the Barrow-Wights). In fact, he may even count as enlightened. He does exactly what is right. He prepares the hobbits for their adventure, without putting them through too much danger, and without meddling n the affairs outside his lands. Let's say he did think it through. If he had stepped in and helped, Middle Earth wouldn't be the same place it was in the Fourth Age, Just as the hobbits needed the Scouring of the Shire, the whole of Middle Earth needed the War of the Ring for the whole "coming of age" thing. And think about what would have happened if he had stepped in. What a mess it would be! The Haradrim, Easterlings and Southrons would still be at large, and still enemies with Gondor. They might not have attacked, but there would always be a small chance of that- what else could be done with a huge army now made redundant. Now that they would have had many men to spare, they might have gone on the offensive. And would Minas Tirith survive an onslaught. No-one would be ready, and Rohan would be dying. Théoden would still be slipping into Saruman's evil plots, and Rohan would probably not have come to Gondor's aid. And Saruman himself would have still be trying to place himself as master of middle-earth, and there would be no-one to stop him. And without the thought of joining Sauron stopping him, Saruman might have persuaded Gandalf to join him. And what of th hobbits? They would have just gone back to the Shire, and everything would return to normal. In my opinion Tom Bombadil purposely took the unconcerned approach.

The fact is, Tom Bombadil doesn't try to meddle with the world. He takes a small corner that no-one wants, or rather people hate, for himself. He doesn't tame it, for that would be imposing too much control on the area, but he makes i t harmless for himself and for anyone passing through. Unlike Men, he doesn't try to change things to the way he wants, and unlike Elves, he doesn't try to keep things the same. His land, even though it is a sortr of cocoon (or bubble) for him, still flows in time with the rest of the world, and is just as earthly and natural, unlike the ethereal Lórien. The world goes by, but he just has a piece of it in which he allows himself to do things his way.

PS. Writing this has given me many more new thoughts on the subject of TB, and I went much deeper than I thought I would in some parts.

[Pitchwife]

Wow! That's two fascinating essays, Eonwe and Curunir!

However:
I'm sure that Tom, if he wanted to could set his sights on all of Middle-Earth, and try to make that his land. He would probably be able to do this, and have all of Middle Earth at his beck and call. But this would go against the nature of tom himself, so this could never happen with him being the same Tom Bombadil. Failing that Tom could (with his immense power) make his land the greatest fortress in the world, and from there launch an attack on the rest of Middle-Earth, but again, that is not his character.
I have a hard time picturing Tom doing anything of the sort, and not only because it would be out of character, but because I don't see Tom as powerful in this extroverted sense. Actually, to me most of his supposedly immense power looks more like immunity against (or perhaps simply indifference towards) other powers, whether it be Old Man Willow's, the Barrow Wight's or even Sauron's (manifest in the ring). Tom is the Master because he is, and remains in all situations, his own master, and thus cannot be mastered by others. Self-discipline indeed seems to be the key to his Mastership. Tom the zen-master... I rather like this idea!:p

Let's not forget, however, the other crucial aspect of his Mastership: not only were his songs stronger songs, but his boots also were faster!;)

[Boromir88]

Now we've reached my least favorite chapter. I'm intrigued by Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight, because of the depth it provides to placing this long tale into a much longer and deeper history. But Tom annoys me.

It's not the poetry, singing, and random oddball-ness of his character. I just try not to read too much into Tom's character and nature, but the fact that much about Tom is an enigma means he attracts a lot of curiosity and questions. I read this chapter and just push Tom aside as an enigma, and leave it at that. I find no interest in trying to uncover anything else about his character, because someone who is 'outside the Lord of the Rings story,' I don't like spending so much time on trying to figure Tom out.

And his appearance in the story seems like a deus ex machina to me. But this has intrigued me recently, I remember I think Inzil bringing it up in a different thread:

'Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing. Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wondering...'

We find out at some point that Maggot has had communication with Bombadil, but I don't think Maggot knew Frodo's plan to leave the Shire. Gildor knew, so perhaps Gildor's elves alerted Bombadil that Frodo might be in the area. However, I'm having trouble figuring out what Tom means by this...he was waiting for Frodo but chance brought him and 'it was no plan of mine'?

[Nerwen]

We find out at some point that Maggot has had communication with Bombadil, but I don't think Maggot knew Frodo's plan to leave the Shire. Gildor knew, so perhaps Gildor's elves alerted Bombadil that Frodo might be in the area. However, I'm having trouble figuring out what Tom means by this...he was waiting for Frodo but chance brought him and 'it was no plan of mine'?
He means he was waiting for Frodo in a general sense, but hadn't known he would run into him at that specific place and time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

He means he was waiting for Frodo in a general sense, but hadn't known he would run into him at that specific place and time.

Basically I would also think it's meant like that. Also Frodo concludes that Tom had heard somehow via Gildor, resp. via the other messengers (animals?, "good powers") Gildor had sent out since their meeting. Specifically, I was quite curious about Tom's statement that he had heard about the Hobbits entering the Forest, because that obviously brings to mind the only possible way he might have heard: a bunch of chatty badgers (okay, or birds).

Otherwise: I actually like this chapter quite a bit. More so than the previous one (which I do not particularly dislike, but neither do I particularly like it). It is this beautiful, restful place, Tom is actually not present that much in the form of singing nonsense - he is actually supplying food and shelter and information and ancient lore (which I like really, really a lot). The whole, ahem, incident with the Ring is of course puzzling in terms of "rules" of Middle-Earth/Arda, but that aside it is nice because it offers a bit of a different perspective on the problem. And I like it.

Anyway, the "passing of time" as Tom tells his story and then the Hobbits not being sure how much time has passed, isn't that a beautiful description? Doesn't it remind you of when you "submerge" yourselves into some good story you are reading or listening to, and when it for example tells about something that happens at night-time, and then you suddenly look up from the book and realise that it is daylight (or vice versa), and it feels surprising?

I also very much like the description of the rainy day. Also Frodo being happy that he doesn't have to leave yet because of it - it also resonates very much, haven't you ever experienced the situation when you would have had to do something (or should have), but external circumstances prevented you from it, and it was actually quite pleasant?

And I must be somewhat stupid, but I only now realised that Tom's statement that "this is Goldberry's washing day" (and autumn cleaning) isn't referring to the fact that she is somewhere in some back room doing laundry, but probably (either also, or only) to the fact that the rain is somehow her doing, that the water flowing down from the river also "cleanses" the forest? I was also wondering: are we encountering here some kind of metaphore for natural forces at this particular time of the year? (It should be right after, or around, autumn equinox, for instance. Sort of "washing after the summer's end, up for the new season?" And maybe of course more...)

Last of all: Frodo dreams. Again. I very often forget this, because the previous chapter sort of disrupts the counting of the days, but Frodo has been having consequently three of his unusual dreams in a row here. Three days in a row. The future events in the Barrow and the further events will somehow disrupt this, but it is an interesting start of the journey, to say the least.

[Morthoron]

Everybody knows it was the fox from the "Three's Company" chapter that let Bombadil in on the "Strange doings in this land". Foxes are quite chatty and prone to gossip.

[Boromir88]

I usually blitz read through this chapter, because I want to "get back" to Middle-earth. Tom's house always felt like a detour, but on this reading I'm noticing so much more.

1. The imagery of Tom holding the Ring up to his eye and the hobbits:

Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through the circle of gold.

We have Tom holding the Ring up and his eye "gleaming" through the Ring, and perhaps the most widely known symbol associated to Sauron being the "Eye". I can't recall but up to this point in the books I don't believe "the Eye" has been established, or mentioned, as a symbol for Sauron.

When the Ringwraiths are near, Frodo gets a feeling he is being watched and wants to put on the Ring, but there's been no mention of Sauron's "Eye" yet.

2. All the hobbits dream in Tom's house except for Sam:

As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented.

I've always remembered this line because it's Tolkien's amusing spin on the phrase "slept like a log," meaning the person was knocked out all night, and when you "sleep like a log" you had a refreshing, very good night of rest. The other hobbits have disturbed rest, where they wake up from a specific dream, remember Tom's words and go back to sleep undisturbed for the remainder of the night.

This got me thinking about what does this reveal about Sam's character? He doesn't get pulled into Old Man Willow's dreams and he's the only hobbit in Tom's house who "sleeps like a log." Sam sees things for what they are, he sees through magic. If he was a character in the Wizard of Oz he would see the "man behind the curtain" and he pulls off masks.

He has some rather perceptive thoughts on his first encounter with Elves:

"They seem a bit above my likes and dislikes, so to speak," answered Sam slowly. It don't seem to matter what I think about them. They are quite different from what I expected - so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were."~A Shortcut to Mushrooms

"Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me."

Quite different from the Sam who just a few chapters ago was jumping up, squeeing about going to see Elves. Sam can't describe what his purpose for going with Frodo is yet, but he is the only hobbit who (up to this point) isn't fooled by magic, and sees people for what they are, not who they appear to be. I'm keeping this in mind when approaching the Strider chapters, because if I recall correctly, it takes a while for Sam to trust Strider.

[Thinlómien]

So, Legate and I wanted to do a reread and cbc commentary... back in 2016. I managed to do six chapters. Today, almost six years later, I decided to resume the project. :D So bear with me as I reanimate these threads one by one (hopefully I'll get at least to the end of FotR this time). I might not have any great insights but I'll comment on whatever caught my attention this time!

So, In the House of Tom Bombadil. Never a favourite of mine, but a harmless, short chapter that has a couple of intriguing elements. I always loved the Narrator's description of Tom's stories about the lost kingdoms of Arnor and how time passed them by. I also think this chapter perfectly conveys a peaceful rainy day mood when you don't have to do anything - or perhaps at most some household chores you've been putting off, such as cleaning or laundry. Everyone's dreams and Tom and Goldberry's warding wishes for the night are very atmospheric too.

I also read the thread and noticed people paying attention to the same things as I did this time - the vegetarian menu, Goldberry and Tom's control of the rain etc - but I was also delighted to find very interesting discussion in the beginning of this thread on Goldberry and her relationship with Tom. What stood out to me this time was how the description of Tom first seeing Goldberry sounded very familiar. Tolkien was certainly fond of romantic first meetings in the forest - Thingol and Melian, Beren and Lúthien, Aragorn and Arwen... and Tom and Goldberry.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So, In the House of Tom Bombadil. Never a favourite of mine, but a harmless, short chapter that has a couple of intriguing elements. I always loved the Narrator's description of Tom's stories about the lost kingdoms of Arnor and how time passed them by.

I do think that that is a wonderful passage, both for Tolkien's language, almost poetic, and that, especially for a new reader, one is along with Frodo for the first time given the feel of the immense ancientry of the world outside the cozy Shire. The Shadow of the Past talks about ancient things, but doesn't really convey the gulf of time like this chapter does.