Can elves die by being poisined???

[Eol Telemnar]

Hey, I've been wondering. I checked if this topic was already used, and its not, so here goes. Can Elves die by poisin? smilies/smile.gif

[Alatariel]

From the Silmarillion: For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries... I'm taking that as a no. They only way they can die is by a broken heart or by blade - or by simply growing weary of the world.

[Eol Telemnar]

hmmm. I did not know they could die of a broken heart? I thought they couldn't. In the Two Towers, In the part where Elrond tries to convince his daughter to sail on the ship to the un-dying lands with them, adn not stay with Arogorn. Elrond told her that if she stays, when aragorn dies, there will be no comfort for her, but if she stayed, wouldn't her heart break right when aragorn dies?

[Alatariel]

Don't go by the movies - this scene was made up by the script writers, not Tolkien. Arwen did indeed die of a broken heart, though not at the exact instant that Aragorn passed away. She chose instead to return to Lothlorien and make her grave upon Cerin Amroth.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:16 PM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Alatariel ]

[Eol Telemnar]

Which book is that in?

[Eol Telemnar]

Thanks for the info smilies/biggrin.gif

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Going back to the original question, I happen to think that elves can die by poison, because they do have to be nourished. Poison is also a form of being slain, so i believe that elves can die of poison.

And that is my two cents. Back to the news

[Alatariel]

Eol - it is in appendix A of Lord of the Rings (if you have copies where the book is broken up into it's three parts, it's found at the end of Return of the King under: "Here follows a part of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen."

Poison is also a form of being slain, so i believe that elves can die of poison I guess it depends on your definition of "slain." I always took this to be a violent death, such as being run through with a sword. As far as I understand, elves are immune to things like extremes in temperature, so I would imagine that they would also be immune to poisions.

[Theoric Windcaller]

Being slain is the parting of the soul from the body, the line of connection between the two being "snipped" so to speak.

Whether an elf was impaled with a sword or served a poisoned drink, he is still slain by the hands of another.

BTW, I was under the impression that when I read the books, Arwern, after the death of her beloved Aragorn, went into the west to Valinor.

[Alatariel]

From appendix A in LoTR: and she [Arwen] went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came...she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave

I still hold that elves would have an immunity to poision, unless someone can point out a place in Tolkien's works where he has stated otherwise.

[Theoric Windcaller]

Heh, what can I say? I was 12 when I read the books and I was quite busy that year. iI might've overlooked that fact.

[Kalimac]

This is a really neat question, Eol (I'm also amused because I'm currently working on an article about arsenic murders). I don't think there's any definite answer to this question, though - to the best of my memory, Tolkien never had an Elf character poisoned or made a definite pronouncement one way or the other. My first instinct would be to say "Of course they can be poisoned - they can be murdered, and poisoning someone is murder." However, there are a few things to consider which might make this a shakier statement than it seems.

1. Tolkien doesn't use the word "murder" he uses "slay." "Slay", according to my dictionary, means "to kill violently." Poison is the antithesis of violent murder - the murderer doesn't even have to be in the same country as the victim when the victim actually ingests the poison. (This isn't to say that the victim doesn't experience any less pain than someone who gets run through with a sword; often they have more. But the point is that the murderer is not *directly* inflicting it). It's very, very unusual to hear of someone being "slain by poison" - though there are instances, old, highly romanticized, and related to important people, such as Hercules - since the poisonous element, which was the direct actor, didn't have any malevolent intent, and the poisoner, who of course did, is not the direct actor.

The question now arises: was Tolkien using "slain" in the same way the dictionary defines it? It might seem like a silly question, and probably is, since he was a professional philologist and probably knew more about language than most of the population of the Downs. However, he was also writing in a deliberately archaic style, and "slay" is seen as a much more old-fashioned word than "murder". It's not, for example, considered completely ridiculous to say that "Hercules was slain by his enemies" even though Hercules died by putting on a poisoned shirt and thus does not technically fall within the definition of slayage. On the other hand, it sounds vaguely off-kilter to refer to Jeffrey Dahmer's victims as "slain" even though they fulfilled every criterion of the dictionary definition. So "slain" is very effective as a means to convey "archaic." And let's face it, "Elves may be slain" sounds a lot better than "Elves can be murdered."

For me, the jury is out on this question - if anyone has any opinions, or any clearer instances of how Tolkien defined "slay" it would be great to see them.

2) Elves' biology. They live forever, they're largely (though not entirely) immune to heat and cold. However, they cannot survive an indisputably violent death such as decapitation by an enemy sword. To me this would suggest that they have, first of all, immense natural strength and second of all, immune systems the likes of which we can't even imagine. This would imply that their bodies an amazing ability to restore themselves; if their red blood-cell count is threatened with a disease that would make a human's count drop drastically, somehow they block it; cancers simply never grow, etc. However, their powers of regeneration aren't total, e.g. a decapitated Elf can't sprout a new head in the way that a crab who loses a leg can grow a new one. (I don't see any reason to believe that an Elf could regrow not-so-vital limbs such as arms, either). So we can conclude that if one part of an Elf's body is physically severed from the other, they do not have the power to rejoin or grow new ones. However, they can do pretty much everything else.

Now, there's no poison in the world that will sever someone's head, cut out a vital organ, or anything similar. What they do is attack different parts of the body in ways which are often similar to natural diseases, albeit often with odd symptoms, or much more severe effects. Poisoning someone with foxglove, for example, can cause them to die of heart failure, because the poison brought on the same symptoms in the body and, in fact, *caused* a real instance of heart failure - it's just that the real instance was artificially induced. Similarly, back when it was common to certify deaths from "gastritis" and similar ills without doing a post-mortem, arsenic was a popular poison because what it did was basically produce gastritis symptoms so severe that it was impossible to live through them. It didn't cause real gastritis in the way that foxglove caused real heart failure, but the method was the same - interfere with body's red blood cells, workings of the stomach, workings of the lungs.

This leans me towards the conclusion that Elves could not be poisoned, at least not without extraordinary effort. Their immune systems would have been able to prevent the poison's effects in ways that human systems could never do. But I'm still back and forth on the question. (Part of me is starting to wonder about other versions of "slaying" - could Elves be burned to death, for example? Hmmm...I lean towards yes on that one, but OTOH it doesn't involve any severing. Have to think about that more).

Just my $0.04.

[Tar Elenion]

Mildly ironic to have 'Eol' asking this question.
smilies/wink.gif

"Then Eöl looked into the eyes of King Turgon, and he was not daunted, but stood long without word or movement while a still silence fell upon the hall; and Aredhel was afraid, knowing that he was perilous. Suddenly, swift as serpent, he seized a javelin that he held hid beneath his cloak and cast it at Maeglin, crying:
'The second choice I take and for my son also! You shall not hold what is mine!'
But Aredhel sprang before the dart, and it smote her in the shoulder; and Eöl was overborne by many and set in bonds, and led away, while others tended Aredhel. But Maeglin looking upon his father was silent.
It was appointed that Eöl should be brought on the next day to the King's judgement; and Aredhel and Idril moved Turgon to mercy. But in the evening Aredhel sickened, though the wound had seemed little, and she fell into the darkness, and in the night she died; for the point of the Javelin was poisoned, though none knew it until too late."
The Silmarillion

[Kalimac]

Well, so much for my calculations then, eh? smilies/smile.gif. That's what I get for not rereading the Silmarillion for forever. It still seems odd, though, what with Elves not becoming ill...but then, ME poisons might be something else altogether.

[Alatariel]

I guess that settles that! smilies/smile.gif I stand corrected...like Kalimac I was leaning more towards the violent defintion of slain, and had the same thoughts about their biology. It has also been quite a while since I have read the Silmarillion, and I totally forgot this part! smilies/rolleyes.gif Oh well - perhaps it's time to delve into it once more.

[Sharkû]

Though the Quendi are not really immortal, but rather infinitely longeval, it is also said that they were more resistant to certain things, such as diseases, and had quicker healing of wounds than Men (cf. HoME X,3,II,Laws). Of course this only means that their 'defense' is higher; a strong poison, pestilence or blow can just as easily kill a Quende as a Man. Tar Elenion even gave the best example we have of it in the Legendarium.

[ArisBoch]

so i guess we might be able to take it that they are immune, or at least more resistant, to weaker types of poisons. at least more so than mortals.

[Eol Telemnar]

That sound pretty reasonable that they are ammune to weaker poisins. Thats what i thought, but did not know for sure smilies/smile.gif

[Guinevere]

Well, after reading the incident with the poisened javelin the case seems clear!

But in addition to being "slain" , Elves also could die of cold and starvation!
Exemples:
Many elves perished during the crossing of the Helcaraxe (including Elenwë, Turgon's wife).
Dior's two small boys, Elured and Elurin, were seized by the cruel servants of Celegorm and left to starve in the forest.

They can also drown: Voronwë was the only elven mariner who survived the shipwreck before the coast of Vinyamar. And obviously, Amroth also drowned, trying to swim back when the ship had left without Nimrodel.

"No sickness nor pestilence brought death to them" but
"Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth and could be destroyed"

Elves are just much less frail than Men...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:02 PM December 12, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Yes, as i said, elves can die in many of the ways humans can. Drowning, fire, poion, starvation, they all kill elves, because elves have the same basic needs humans have.

Also, it is possible that dying of a broken heart is actually refusing to eat until you die of starvation. Of course, i would not be suprised to see evidence to the contrary in one of the books i have not read.

[Eol Telemnar]

thanks for all the info! But let me make sure. Elves can be killed by stronger poisins? let me ask this as well, how can elves die? give a list.

[Novberaid]

Only to add. What would be the purpose of the world if the Supreme Being made the elves and did not want them to die? There must be reason behind His designs. Can mortal and finite beings attempt to put limits on the Omnipotent? I don't think that answers the question, but it might make us think we might be made to know it all.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

I think i have a compete list here, if not, tell me!

1. Sword (stabbed, severed head, ect)
2. Broken heart
3. Drowning
4. Starvation
5. Poison
6. Fire, i think
7. Bludgeoning (club, falling rock, ect)

If you have more, you should quote this, unless you are making a new list.

[Eol Telemnar]

or by simply growing weary of the world. 1. Sword (stabbed, severed head, ect)
2. Broken heart
3. Drowning
4. Starvation
5. Poison
6. Fire, i think
7. Bludgeoning (club, falling rock, ect) Yea, aslo, further up, it said they can grow weary of the world

[Eol Telemnar]

Thanks alot! please continue to answer smilies/biggrin.gif

[Finwe]

I wouldn't quite agree with the theory that when an Elf dies of a broken heart, they actually die of starvation, because they don't eat. When Elves love someone, they love that person for the rest of their life (yes, even though Finwë remarried, he still loved Miriel for the rest of his life) and if that person is taken from them, they are deeply scarred. Usually, they either die of a broken heart, or never recover from that wound. Finwë is the only Elf in history to have remarried after his spouse's death. (Yes, I know I'm bad. smilies/biggrin.gif) Compared to the fëar of Men, the fëar of Elves can be rather weak. In some cases, granted, they are a lot stronger (i.e. standing up to Dark Lords), but in cases like love, they are much, much weaker. A Human could probably move on after the death of a spouse/lover, but an Elf would probably fade, die, or be forever scarred, and never love again.

[Nimloth]

Wouldn't a poisoned arrow kill an elf? Also I would think that a Morgul Knife would???? Unless the elf had medical attention from someone like Elrond or Aragorn, of course. smilies/smile.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

how can elves die? give a list.

Seems to me that it's far easier to list those things that kill Men, but do not kill Elves. I can only think of two: ageing and disease.

[Eol Telemnar]

Hmmmmmm. Interesting answers, I'll have to think! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kalimac]

Very interesting - I hadn't really thought before about all the ways in which Elves were potentially vulnerable (basically, I'd been under the impression previously that it was Heartbreak, the Sword, or nothing. Obviously need to crack open my dusty copy of the Silmarillion again). But - dare I suggest it - could it be that Tolkien was being a little inconsistent on the poisons issue? After all, there are a number of poisons - strong ones - which essentially work by either giving you a disease or a disease-consistent cause of death (sorry, hope that isn't too confusing). Like the foxglove example I gave earlier; it would be poison, but it would also be legitimate heart failure. And for another odd example, what about something like uranium poisoning? I realize this is very out of period, but what uranium poisoning does is give you a very medically real case of cancer. Would this mean that Elves are only vulnerable to poisons which don't relate somehow to natural illness? Because that's a pretty short list.

[Sharkû]

What I explained earlier is that Elves aren't really immune to anything except the grim reaper of old age. High resistance/good immune system != immunity

[Makamu]

I always thought that Elves could die from poisons which would kill a mortal outright, aka very strong ones. But I do have another question: The deaths on the Helkaraxe, could they have been partially due to grief as well? I mean, could they not have grieved for the deaths the Noldor caused in Alqualonde and, for example, the ice Elenwe and Itarille for buried under just being the right 'situation' for Elenwe's fea to attempt flight?

[Finwe]

I believe you have made a mistake, Idril was rescued, but Turgon could not get to Elenwë in time. I think that being buried or crushed in ice, or drowned in icy water, could have easily killed an Elf, because that is enough to kill any hroa. Not even a Maia could survive being buried in ice for a very long time.

[Eol Telemnar]

True that! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Eol Telemnar]

Hey, I have another question, when they die of the weariness of the world or a broken heart, how do they die? do they stab themselves or something?

[Earendilyon]

Finwe said:
Compared to the fëar of Men, the fëar of Elves can be rather weak. In some cases, granted, they are a lot stronger (i.e. standing up to Dark Lords), but in cases like love, they are much, much weaker. A Human could probably move on after the death of a spouse/lover, but an Elf would probably fade, die, or be forever scarred, and never love again.I wouldn't call the weaker, but stronger! They made a decision whith the whole of their fea and stuck to that, as long as life (and Arda!) lasted. Humans make this decision for 'just' a couple of decades, whereas they made this decision for many, many millenia! If that's not strenght of fea, I don't know what is!

[Alatariel]

when they die of the weariness of the world or a broken heart, how do they die? One of the better examples is Miriel, Feanor's mother, found in the Silmarillion: She went then to the gardens of Lorien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:17 PM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: Alatariel ]

[Eol Telemnar]

Yea, but how do they die? do they stab themselves or something?

[Eol Telemnar]

oh, never mind. I missed the quote. so they just lay down and die?

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Yes, they lay down and die. Basically their spirit leaves their body.

Biological warfare would not work against elves, would it?

ie throwing a dead corpse into an elven fortification with a catapult.

But a poison, which dispersed through the air, would?

I just want this issue cleared up.

[Finwe]

Since biological warfare in Middle-earth probably involved catapulting corpses into castles, with the desire to spread infection, it wouldn't work on Elves because they aren't vulnerable to infection or disease.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

OK, yes, i agree with that. However, how would poison work if disease does not work? they affect the body in similar ways.

My theory is that diseas can kill them, but they are resistant to the point of invincibility. Poison is different.

Opinions, everyone?

[Alatariel]

My theory is that diseas can kill them, but they are resistant to the point of invincibility Disease cannot kill them. As Guinevere said before: "No sickness nor pestilence brought death to them" Not all poisions affect the body the same way that diseases do. Besides, wouldn't it be more disease like symptoms, not an actual disease itself? Even though they are similar, they are not one and the same - most poisons work either through the blood stream or digestive system; as far as I understand it, many diseases work by moving through tissues and cells, like cancer.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:41 PM December 15, 2003: Message edited by: Alatariel ]

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Not all poisions affect the body the same way that diseases do.

So, are you saying that there are poisons that do not effect elvs, because they work like diseases? This is what you seem to be saying.

[Telchar]

Beside the obvious Eöl/Aredhel case here are some other references that might help you guys...

In 2509 Celebrían wife of Elrond was journeying to Lórien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound. She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea.

They sought long for her in vain, fearing that she had been ensnared, or had drunk from the poisoned streams of that land; but the fell creatures of Ungoliant that dwelt in the ravines were aroused and pursued them, and they hardly escaped with their lives.

[doug*platypus]

I think you have to use garlic or something don't you? Or EDTA like in Blade II?

Elves are not vampires!! JRR Tolkien didn't create them to be comic book characters with highly defined, very specific weaknesses. They're not in a Saturday morning cartoon!

Seems to me that it's far easier to list those things that kill Men, but do not kill Elves. I can only think of two: ageing and disease. Surely the above quote from Saucepan Man should be enough to stop the madness? Biological warfare?! OMG... this is The Lord of the Rings we're talking about, not the latest X-Box game (although unfortunately these days they are one and the same thing).

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Biological warfare?! OMG... this is The Lord of the Rings we're talking about, not the latest X-Box game

What is so farfetched about biological warfare? All biological warfare is is introducing a disease into a sustem that cannot handle it. DEAD COWS AND A CATAPULT!!! What is wrong with this situaltion? Nothing.

"No sickness nor pestilence brought death to them"

I do not mean to be picky, but just because it DID not bring death did not mean it CAN not bring death. This is the literal meaning of the quote.

[Telchar]

GREAT TOPIC!!! Let's discuss how deadly it would be to elves - or men for that matter -to Catapult Dead Posinous Cows on on them (preferable while they are sleeping) smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/tongue.gif

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Um... is that sarcasm? I cant tell. smilies/eek.gif

Anyway, I think, as you may have noticed, that biological warfare would work just as well against elves as it would against humans.

[Finwe]

Tuor, biological warfare is only effective if the population being attacked is vulnerable to the disease being introduced. In the case of the Elves, since they weren't susceptible to disease, the worst that would happen was that the place would smell of rotting corpses. No Elves would die of disease.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

OK, that kind of makes sense. But, would 'chemical warfare' work, such as using smoke to make elves get out of a building?

[Finwe]

Something like that could probably work, since Elves need to breathe just like Humans. In The Silmarillion, the death of Ecthelion, Captain of Gondolin, is accomplished by drowning, proving that Elves do indeed need to breathe. (For those of you who are morbidly interested in all the sordid details, during the Fall of Gondolin, he fought with Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, and after killing him, fell into the extremely deep fountain that "incidentally" was right next to him, and the weight of his armor made him sink to the bottom of the fountain.)