LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 10 - Strider

[Estelyn Telcontar]

From one of Tolkien’s letters, we know that he admitted to not knowing who Strider was when he first appeared at the ‘Prancing Pony’. From the early drafts in HoME, we know that he was originally Trotter, the Ranger hobbit. When Tolkien introduced him in the last chapter, he left his readers uncertain of his character and true nature. In this chapter, we get to know him better, both directly through the hobbits’ encounter and talk with him, and indirectly through Gandalf’s letter. The end of the chapter sees them falling asleep, protected, yet how close they are to danger is foreshadowed by Merry’s close escape.

How does this chapter affect you? How important do you think it is for the continuation of the story? Do you like the character that is developed here?

[Boromir88]

My favorite part in this Chapter would have to be when Aragorn pulls out the shards of Narsil.

Strider
"I did not know," he answered. "But I am Aragorn, and those verses go with that name." He drew out his sword, and they saw that the blade was indeed broken a foot below the hilt. "Not much use is it, Sam?" said Strider. "But the time is near when it shall be forged anew."

This is something I was dissapointed that the movie did not show. I think it is important to show this, for it represents that Aragorn is willing to become King, and reclaim the throne. In the movie I got the feeling anytime Boromir brought up, hey lets go to Minas Tirith, Aragorn just felt like saying "Shut up, I hate Minas Tirith."

But it is near when it shall be forged anew

So with that quote, in the first book of the first chapter, we see Aragorn willing to want to reclaim the throne of Gondor. Aragorn will go through many tests, and many hard times, most difficult probably the breaking of the Fellowship, which I will get to when the time comes. But here he has already proven he just "can't wait to be king." Sorry, I had to add in a song, lol.

[The Perky Ent]

Ah yes! I like this chapter particularly, as it contains Gandalf's troubling letter THE PRANCING PONY, BREE. Midyear's Day, Shire Year, 1418.

Dear Frodo,

*** Bad news has reached me here. I must go off at once. You had better leave Bag End soon, and get out of the Shire before the end of July at latest. I will return as soon as I can; and I will follow you, if I find that you are gone. Leave a message for me here, if you pass through Bree. You can trust the landlord (Butterbur). You may meet a friend of mine on the Road: a man, lean, dark, tall, by some called Strider. He knows our business and will help you. Make for Rivendell. There I hope we may meet again. If I do not come, Elrond will advise you.


Yours in haste
** Gandalf.

PS. Do Not use It again, not for any reason whatever! Do not travel by night!

PPS. Make sure that it is the real Strider. There are many strange men on the roads. His true name is Aragorn.

All That is gold does not glitter,

not all those who wander are lost;

the old that is strong does not wither,

deep roots are not reached by the frost.

from the ashes a fire shall be woken,

a light from the shadows shall spring;

renewed shall be blade that was broken,

the crownless again shall be king.


PPPS. I hope Butterbur sends this promptly. A worthy man, but his memory is like a lumber-room: thing wanted always buried. If he forgets, I shall roast him.


Fare Well!

Several things in the letter entrigued me. First off, how Gandalf knew Frodo used It. If it's explained in the book, I apologize for my ignorance, but does Gandalf have the ability to sense it, in one way or another? Second, the poem. One of my all time favorites! It's a reason in its own to like this chapter! And thirdly, the PPPS :D The simalie was particularry funny, as was the idea of Gandalf roasting Butterbur! It reminded me of what hobbits thought of Gandalf: That he could turn them into a frog!

[rutslegolas]

All That is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

I like this poem very much It sort of inspires me. :D

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The poem is indeed one of Tolkien's best -- second only, I think, to the Ring verse. Like the Ring verse, it gives us all kinds of interesting information about Aragorn. In particular, it gives us an interesting look at the manner in which Aragorn and Sauron are related/interconnected to one another.

"All that is gold does not glitter" This has to be a counterpart, even a counterpoint, to the Ring: also made of gold, and also something that lacks "glitter" in a couple of sensese. I never once remember the Ring as "glittering" which would seem for Tolkien to be a positive idea (the glittering caves of Aglarond). So Aragorn and Sauron are alike in some ways -- both are identified with and by gold, and neither one of them appears to be what he really is. Both are hidden in some way: of course, Sauron is deceptive while Aragorn is cloaked in the protective guise of Strider (interesting that the title of the chapter is this name), but there is this similarity. There is a dissonance between their true nature and their appearance to others.

Of course, the big difference here is that this dissonance is reversed: Sauron, as Frodo points out, seeks to look fair despite being foul (Macbeth allusion #1 in the book).

"Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost." These lines could just as easily be applied to Sauron! After each defeat he is said to "wander" Middle Earth, but he always finds his way back to Mordor where he grows in strength once more. Like the line of the Dunedain, Sauron cannot be wholly quenched or destroyed, only reduced in power for a time.

"From the ashes a fire shall be woken" The fires of Mount Doom burning once more? The rekindling of Mount Doom in the land of ashes? I do realise that this line is not alluding to Sauron, but it makes yet another connection between Aragorn and Sauron, this time through the imagery of fire and ash. Again, there's a reversal -- in Mordor, the result of fire is dead and sterile ash; Aragorn, on the other hand, will bring a new fire that will renew the ash. So alike, even interconnected, but opposite.

"A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king." I think this is where the conjoined/counterpart/counterpoint relationship of Aragorn and Sauron is most clearly laid out. Aragorn is the light and Sauron is the shadow: but of course, light and shadow are interdependent. In the Christian take on this imagery (and I anticipate davem here :) ) shadows are dependent upon light, since the former cannot exist without the latter. It's interesting though that in this verse, the light springs from within a pre-existing shadow (like the fire from the ash). It's almost as though the shadows do have some form of independent existence and that the light is going to have to combat them. . .

The verse ends with the two items that link Aragorn and Sauron together: the sword and the crown. The sword was broken in the past when Isildur destroyed Sauron and took the Ring, and the crown that is properly Aragorn’s but that Sauron is trying to take for himself.

What I find so compelling about all this is that while it shows on the one hand how Sauron is the shadow of Aragorn, it does so by consistently linking them to each other. Sauron is the ‘negative’ or evil part(ner) of the pair, but they are presented as conjoined, linked to one another by and through the crown (the future), the sword (the past), and even the Ring (the present? Insofar as their conflict is being brought to a head in the War of the Ring?).

The idea of Sauron as Aragorn’s shadow, and the closeness of the relationship as it’s developed by the verse, has a couple of important implications. First, Sauron needs Aragorn, for without the light of Numenor, there can be no shadow of Mordor. Second, though, there cannot be a light that does not cast some shadows (except, perhaps, the light of Eru?) – so even if Aragorn is able to defeat Sauron, there will always be more shadowy figures cast by his light??

One very last point on the form of this verse, as compared to the Ring Verse: the Ring verse is written in iambs (with the syllables repeating in an unstressed-stressed pattern, like in Shakespeare: “to BE or NOT to BE”; “one RING to RULE them ALL”), whereas Aragorn’s verse is written primarily in anapests (with two unstressed syllables followed by a stressed syllable: “the CROWN-less a-GAIN shall be KING”). Why do I make this point?

*Fordim dons professorly robes and lectures the rapt audience over the rim of his glasses*

Iambic verse is the more usual in poetry as it more clearly mimics the natural cadence of spoken English; it is the least poetic sounding form of poetry. Anapestic verse is the precise opposite; it is the most poetic sounding. This is fascinating to me – Sauron’s verse is one that hides its artifice in a way; it sounds like simple prose, when really it’s poetry. Aragorn’s verse, on the other hand (written, I realise, by Bilbo) is openly artificial and poetic. This really brings the relation of these two characters into focus, I think: both are connected to the same things, and to each other through these things, but one strives to hide behind art (that is, Sauron attempts to look artless?) while Aragorn is more clear and open about his true nature (that is, he is willing to show his poetic nature?).

[Aiwendil]

This chapter reminds me of chapter 5 in a way - like that chapter, it consists primarily of conversation, and its function is largely to sort things out and tell us who is going to do what. The big question that the chapter deals with is, of course, "who is Strider?" But also discussed are Butterbur's character, the movements of the Black Riders, and what the Hobbits are to do next.

In a way, the chapter is a temporary decrease in tension. Despite Sam's suspicion, it is not all that hard for the reader to guess at the outset that Strider will turn out to be a friend; the suspense surrounding his character in chapter 9 dissipates fairly quickly. The chapter then is not so much about playing with the reader's opinion of Strider as it is about the logic of the Hobbits' acceptance of him. And this logic is handled rather neatly with Gandalf's letter. The suspense is then re-ignited with Merry's entrance and news of the Black Riders.

So we have a whole chapter more or less devoted to establishing Aragorn as a character. I think this is interesting, as Aragorn is, I have always felt, one of the flatter characters in the book. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. He is a flat character in the tradition of great flat characters like Aeneas and Beowulf. It's not that he is poorly characterized, just that he does not have the same sort of psychological hook as Turin or Gollum or even Frodo. So why a whole chapter devoted to characterizing him? Well, part of it is that because he is a flat character, one chapter is sufficient. Aragorn's character is almost completely laid out very quickly here (even if his real identity is not yet clear to the Hobbits), whereas, for example, Frodo's is not fully explored until the end of the book.

Strider's character is even boiled down rather nicely to a single phrase. Frodo says that a servant of the enemy would "look fair and feel foul"; Strider really does "look foul and feel fair". He looks foul in the sense that he looks the way we would expect an enemy to look - he sits mysteriously in the corner of the common room; he even scrambles over the gate as a "dark figure" and melts "into the shadows below". But as soon as he begins speaking, his true nature becomes evident. The way he speaks is simply not the way enemies speak in Tolkien's universe.

[mark12_30]

Several things in the letter entrigued me. First off, how Gandalf knew Frodo used It. If it's explained in the book, I apologize for my ignorance, but does Gandalf have the ability to sense it, in one way or another?

Honestly, Perky, I think that Tolkien's use of the word "again" is an error. (Gasp! Did I say that? Horrors!)

Look at the date of the letter-- Midyear's day, which is the summer solstice, June 18-ish (THANK YOU! that goes into Equinii and solsticsess) and compare it to Frodo's departure from Bag End in late September. Frodo had *not* used the Ring by the writing of this letter-- Frodo's first use of the Ring was in Tom Bombadil's house.

I don't know why Tolkien (via Gandalf) wrote 'again'.

I suppose one could hedge that Gandalf was warning Frodo 'again', but the sentence structure & punctuation isn't convincing, is it?

[davem]

Frodo had *not* used the Ring by the writing of this letter-- Frodo's first use of the Ring was in Tom Bombadil's house.

I don't know why Tolkien (via Gandalf) wrote 'again'.

Well, he had used it before in the early drafts - notably to play a trick on Farmer Maggot! In fact, its surprising that Tolkien didn't get more confused with the number of letters & recipients invoved in the early drafts - Trotter has a letter from Gandalf, then Butterbur, then they both have a letter from him, then neither of them does. Reading the early drafts one is truly amazed that Tolkien managed to keep the story straight & that more such slips didn't creep in.

I have to say I do like the way Strider 'plays' the hobbits - both sides are testing the other - Strider points out that he has almost been trapped by the enemy's tricks before, & we have to understand that he is also on his guard - if they are spies of the enemy then they could bring about his downfall & the end of the Northern line. We can only admire the risk he is willing to take, & the struggle he has to bring himself to trust them. There are a lot of undercurrents to this chapter, & Aragorn is taking the hobbits just as much on trust as they are taking him. When he tells them that:
The Enemy has set traps for me before now. As soon as I had made up my mind, I was ready to tell you whatever you asked. But I must admit,' he added with a queer laugh, 'that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust & longs for friendship.
I have to admit that on all my subsequent readings I feel like hugging the poor soul! (Don't know how well that would have gone down with the Chief of the Dunedain :eek: ). Its easy to forget Aragorn's story of loss, struggle, sacifice, being constantly hunted, distrusted & despised. Even here in the parlour at Bree, when all our concerns are with Frodo & his companions, Tolkien manages to evoke sympathy for this strangers - to all those who are open to it. And then the killer:
'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; & if by life or death I can save you, I will. (note, no exclamation mark at the end. This is not a heroic boast, it is a simple statement, & he means it. I remember reading a comment from a reader of The lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe, who only picked up on the Christian allegory as an adult, along the lines of 'Jesus was just a man in a book to me, but I could have died for Aslan.' Well, at this point (though only on the second & subsequent readings, I admit) I could have died for Aragorn).

Aiwendil is correct:Strider's character is even boiled down rather nicely to a single phrase. Frodo says that a servant of the enemy would "look fair and feel foul"; Strider really does "look foul and feel fair".

And so is Aragorn's, also with a single phrase.

[Lalwendë]

I like Fordim's post about the "All that is gold does not glitter" verse. I do agree that the first line could equally apply to The Ring. It is in fact a line which seems to apply to many aspects of Middle Earth (and, indeed, to life itself). Sam is a hero wrapped in the guise of a humble hobbit, and Faramir is another who is good, yet at first glance seems rough. Then we have Saruman, in his lofty, noble tower, yet he is not good at all. But I have always thought that the first six lines of this verse could equally be made to apply to Gandalf.

All That is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;

Gandalf is himself a roughly dressed figure with the appearance of an old man. Yet age does not affect him, and he is stronger than anyone might expect - his 'deep roots'. The fire and the light come from the power inherent in his ring of power, and I often think these lines could also apply to his 'resurrection' after the balrog takes him into the abyss.

***

This chapter has stayed with me since my very first reading, particularly when Aragorn reveals his stature after Sam's challenge. This was a very striking and vivid image to me, he became the very picture of a commanding hero, a military leader and king. It also reminds me of portraits of historical figures like Nelson. The protagonists in the book see Aragorn every day in his guise as a ranger - and at moments such as this it is as though he has revealed his 'public' or noble persona.

He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller. In his eyes gleamed a light, keen and commanding. Throwing back his cloak, he laid his hand on the hilt of a sword that had hung concealed by his side. They did not dare to move.

[Firefoot]

As many people have said, Aragorn's poem is one of my favorite bits of the chapter, and of the book. (Nice post on this, Fordim!) It was in fact the first piece that I ever memorized. This chapter and the two following ones are also among my very favorite chapters, perhaps my single favorite sequence of events in the book.

Though I do enjoy Gandalf's letter, I have often wondered how it would have fallen out if there had been no letter. Based on Frodo's comments, I think they would have ended up taking Aragorn with them anyway, but it still intrigues me.

Something interesting that struck me was the line "After Weathertop our journey will become more difficult, and we will have to choose between various dangers." Ever since the discussion in the Chapter 2 thread I have been particularly sensitive to lines and phrases that might be foreshadowing, and this is one of those that stood out. If only they knew how much more difficult it would be.

Also interesting how Strider's image changes throughout the chapter. At the start, he is Strider, a rascally-looking character who at the start seems to want more than Frodo wants to give. Even the name "Strider" is rather vegabond-ish, though eventually it becomes an affectionate (maybe that isn't the right word) name among the hobbits. As the chapter goes on, we see that Strider knows more than is perhaps safe, compounded by the fact that neither Barliman nor Sam seem to trust him at all. Then there is Gandalf's letter, and like the hobbits we can be relieved that this Strider really is on their side. He has an actual name now, Aragorn, and he basically swears to help Frodo in whatever way he can, whether living or dying. (Another favorite line: "But I am the real Strider, fortunately," he said, looking down at them with his face softened by a sudden smile. "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can save you, I will.")

[Lhunardawen]

At the risk of sounding clichèd, this is one of the most interesting chapters in the whole of LotR, and the poem is one of the best I have ever encountered (indeed, one of the few I have memorized).

What I most like about this chapter is how Strider's character unfolded. As Esty mentioned above, the hobbits, as well as the readers, are left uncertain of his true identity. He could easily be mistaken as someone in league with the Enemy, what with his physical appearance and the way he looked at and conversed with Frodo in the previous chapter. But as we see, Strider's looks are in direct contradiction with his character. He "looks foul and feels fair," as the book mentioned. But in the way he carried himself in the chapter, I discerned an air of nobility in him even before I realized his true status.

I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can save you, I will.
Terribly touching. If I were Frodo, I would have cried right there and then.

Speaking of touching, we see more of the loyalty Sam has for Frodo. We see him doubting Strider's intentions. I could not blame him for that. After all, it would be really hard to trust anyone in a place you barely know. This distrust may seem something negative, but I believe that Sam's doubt is caused by his genuine concern for Frodo's welfare, not wanting him to be fooled nor betrayed by anyone.

Lastly, in the end we have seen a glimpse of Merry's "accidental bravery" as he tried to come after the Ringwraiths. What he did was a lot helpful, though he wasn't aware of it, as we will see in the (near) horror of the next chapter.

[mark12_30]

Iambic verse is the more usual in poetry as it more clearly mimics the natural cadence of spoken English; it is the least poetic sounding form of poetry. Anapestic verse is the precise opposite; it is the most poetic sounding. This is fascinating to me – Sauron’s verse is one that hides its artifice in a way; it sounds like simple prose, when really it’s poetry. Aragorn’s verse, on the other hand (written, I realise, by Bilbo) is openly artificial and poetic.

Those of us who are horse enthusiasts, Fordim, will add that Aragorn's verse canters (or gallops). It is a battle-cry gaining momentum, leading a charge, rolling like distant thunder:

"Half a league, half a league, half a league onward"
...
"Honor the charge they made, noble six hundred!"

[Encaitare]

Hey everyone, this is my first time posting in this section so I'm just trying to get into the swing of things...

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle
Iambic verse is the more usual in poetry as it more clearly mimics the natural cadence of spoken English; it is the least poetic sounding form of poetry. Anapestic verse is the precise opposite; it is the most poetic sounding. This is fascinating to me – Sauron’s verse is one that hides its artifice in a way; it sounds like simple prose, when really it’s poetry. Aragorn’s verse, on the other hand (written, I realise, by Bilbo) is openly artificial and poetic.

Well, after looking up "anapestic" I must say I agree. And as rutslegolas said earlier, it is a very inspirational poem. "Not all those who wander are lost" is the kind of line that can definitely cheer you up. :)

As for Sauron's verse being the "least poetic," perhaps this ties in to the corruption of all good things in an attempt to create, as demonstrated by Sauron and Morgoth in the past? Perhaps this method of verse on the Ring was done deliberately by Tolkien to show that even Sauron's poetry, something that is generally regarded as beautiful and pleasing to hear, is rather uncouth.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

davem, you quite movingly wrote:

I could have died for Aragorn

Allow me to second this. Aragorn is, without doubt, one of my two favourite characters in all literature (the other being, naturally, Hamlet). He is, as Aiwendil points out, a remarkably simple character to understand: he is a hero.

No, that's not right, is it? He's not a hero, he's a King. It's not just that people -- including myself -- admire him: we love him. And I do love him, with a deep and abiding emotion like that I feel for only a few people. That for me has always been the great strenght of Aragorn. His greatness does not depend upon his soldiery (which is unsurpassed) or his wisdom (which is second only to Elrond's and Gandalf's) or his compassion and pity; his greatness depends instead upon the fact that he is able to inspire, even command, the most profoundly personal love of those who are ready to accept him.

The manner of his introduction in this chapter is entirely appropriate. Aragorn presents everyone he meets with a challenge: it's the challenge of his own presence -- are you worthy of him? Are you wise enough to recognise who and what he is, strong enough to pledge yourself to him, and faithful enough to follow him? The fact that he comes upon the hobbits in such a threatening manner is appropriate, for they are going to have to face up to this challenge. I really don't see it as an overstatement when I say that the whole purpose of Frodo's quest is to prove that he is worthy of Aragorn's love.

The fact that at the end of this journey (to get well ahead of myself) it is Aragorn who bows to Frodo makes me weep.

And now for something that will make Saucy go nuts when he returns to the Downs. . .

This is an aspect of the story that I think the movie might actually have been able to do more powerfully than the book. At the death of Boromir, in the film, when he pledges his love to Aragorn "my brother, my captain, my King" -- I wept like a babe quite openly for quite a long time, and not just because Boromir is dying, but because I too would gladly lay down my life for Aragorn so deeply do I love that man.

But that is enough of such silliness. End of swoon. Return to more sensible posts.

[Mithalwen]

He's not a hero, he's a King. It's not just that people -- including myself -- admire him: we love him. And I do love him, with a deep and abiding emotion like that I feel for only a few people. That for me has always been the great strenght of Aragorn. His greatness does not depend upon his soldiery (which is unsurpassed) or his wisdom (which is second only to Elrond's and Gandalf's) or his compassion and pity; his greatness depends instead upon the fact that he is able to inspire, even command, the most profoundly personal love of those who are ready to accept him.



Hhu? I find Aragorn a pompous prig at times. Faramir is No 1 man... and he ends up with No 1 woman...lol

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

*Fordim slaps Mithalwen across the face with his gauntlet, then tosses it at Mith's amazed feet*

Sir, I must ask you to accept this gauntlet in earnest of a more serious confrontation that I suggest we undertake early tomorrow upon the heath, where I shall answer your slanders in the most vigorous and peremptory manner.

Do you prefer pistols or swords? I shall await you in the appointed place at the appointed hour where, if you shall fail to appear so that I might pay you as you deserve for your words, I shall consider you the most arrant and cowardly knave.

[Mithalwen]

Pistols.... a bullet may go anywhere but a blade is bound to go somewhere!!!!!

And since your eyesight is so poor that you haven't observed the definitely female contours of my figure... I reckon I stand a good chance ...... :D

And could I have teh other gauntlet? So useful for gardening...

[mark12_30]

"Well, Fordim sir, it's a bit of a detour and no mistake. But I've got your sabre" (rattles scabbard reassuringly) " and your set of pistols " (gestures at Bilbo the Pony, who snorts and tosses head ) "and I wouldn't miss this bit of excitement for all the beer in the southfarthing. Well, sir, has Mithalwen answered you yet?"

[mark12_30]

(Scratching head) "I don't see your opponent, Fordim sir. But your gauntlet is right over there."

[Encaitare]

Well, in defense of Mithalwen, (although I don't wish to be challenged to any duels -- or slapped with a gauntlet, for that matter!), I can see where she's coming from. Aragorn can be a bit high and mighty at times, but I suppose he has the right to... he is king, after all!

In this particular chapter I can only find one example of Aragorn acting in this manner:

"Well, you know your own business, maybe," said Mr. Butterbur, looking suspiciously at Strider. "But if I was in your plight, I wouldn't take up with a Ranger."

"Then who would you take up with?" asked Strider. "A fat inkeeper who only remembers his own name because people shout it at him all day? They cannot stay in The Pony for ever, and they cannot go home. They have a long road before them. Will you go with them and keep the black men off?"

This seems a bit extreme to say to poor Butterbur, but then again he was always rather less than friendly to Aragorn. And Fordim's comment:

The manner of his introduction in this chapter is entirely appropriate. Aragorn presents everyone he meets with a challenge: it's the challenge of his own presence -- are you worthy of him? Are you wise enough to recognise who and what he is, strong enough to pledge yourself to him, and faithful enough to follow him?

bolsters the evidence that Aragorn is confident enough in his own strengths that he has no hesitation in doing what he must. Plus, who would be the leader if not Aragorn? It is better for a king to show the ability to lead justly and with wisdom even before ascending to the throne, and Aragorn certainly does that.

[mark12_30]

Although I understand Mithalwen's preference for Faramir over Aragorn, command implies decisiveness, and both Faramir and Aragorn employ this (seemingly rude) trait at need. Aragorn goes further still-- he seems brash, nearly foolhardy. But not quite.

It is precisely this attitude of Aragorn's that enables him to win Eomer: "Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!" An odd thing for one man to say to an entire Eored.

Aragorn can be very patient, but he knows when it is the right time to let his patience run out. He knows Frodo cannot make it to Rivendell without him. He cannot let Barliman talk Frodo out of trusting him as a guide. I do not see Aragorn's jarring response primarily as rude (although it is that); it is realistic.

Frodo's only hope is Strider, and Strider knows it. And for the sake of Middle-Earth, he decisively puts Barliman out of the argument.

[Mithalwen]

I never really quite "forgave" him for not preferring the brave and spirited Eowyn to the merely beautiful Arwen .... but then I realised that Faramir was just about the perfect man ...... :rolleyes:

And *jumps and waves I AM HERE...*

"Tell them I came, and no one answered, that I kept my word"

[mark12_30]

Well, we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves. But he had given Arwen his *promise*; Aragorn and Arwen were engaged. (Have you read appendix A?)

Had Aragorn broken that promise, he would have been much less of a man-- and I doubt Eowyn would have wanted a promise-breaker.

I'm happier for all of them the way things turned out, aren't you?

[Mithalwen]

I have indeed (...in fact I own HoME) and I do appreciate that point but my resentment dates back to my first reading when I was about 12, had forgotten about Arwen's existence at that point, and an embryonic feminist identifying strongly with Eowyn.... it seemed an insult to all clever, brave women.......

Of course once I was a little older and fully appreciated Faramir, I reckoned she had a lucky escape .... and I still think that Aragorn can be pompous, " a stuffed shirt" at times .....

[mark12_30]

Ah.

I do think Faramir and Aragorn are both quite admirable. I would follow either of them. It is interesting that Aragorn and Faramir become fast friends and loyal allies, and that Faramir has no trouble respecting, loving, and serving Aragorn.

I always respected Faramir for that.

[Encaitare]

True, Faramir does seem like the perfect man!

But to link all this back to the chapter's subject, I wonder what exactly Aragorn sees in Arwen. We never really seem to find out; it seems that first he loved her simply for her beauty. Doubtless it became something deeper as they got to know one another better, and we know that they truly are in love. However, I just wish it was expanded a little more.

The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A says:

Then Aragorn was abashed, for the saw the elven-light in her eyes and the wisdom of many days; yet from that hour he loved Arwen Undomiel daughter of Elrond.

Faramir and Eowyn's love just seems so much more tangible, if you understand what I'm saying. Love doesn't make sense, but we at least see their relationship grow into love. And although it's part of what's great about LotR is that some things are just given without explanation, I'd like to see a bit more into the relationship of Aragorn and Arwen, and take away from the flatness of Arwen's character.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ahem!! I'd like to remind all discussers that there is no mention of Arwen, Éowyn, or Faramir in this chapter. Please try to limit the discussion of later events to thoughts that are absolutely essential to the development of Strider's character. Better yet, let's discuss the facts that are given to us in this very chapter, which bears his name! Thank you!

[mark12_30]

Yes, Ma'am. Sorry, Ma'am.

*salutes & tries to look like part of scenery*

[Encaitare]

::looks abashed like Aragorn did:: Will do. I tried to remain as on-topic as possible earlier but I suppose it failed...

[Lalwendë]

Well, these posts have certainly made me laugh! Before I go on, I have to say...I admire Faramir too. ;) But I'm going to sit on a rickety old fence and say I like them both! Now, I'll put my Aragorn fan 'hat' (hood?) on and defend him.

First of all, I'm always struck by how close the name Aragorn is to the word arrogant. Bear with me here... I am thinking of two types of arrogance. There is the type which can also be termed 'pride', and as the cliche goes, comes before a fall. But there is also the type which can be applied to a person who is sure of themselves, which denotes a person with bearing, and immense confidence, as seen in great military commanders. They must maintain their appearance of command in order to inspire others to follow them. This would certainly apply to Aragorn in the latter stages of the War of the Ring.

And a little more linguistics. Aragorn is also a word remarkably close to Argent, which means gold, if I am not mistaken?

Now, as for Aragorn being a 'prig' (Mithalwen, I love that word!), I had to go and find an instance where he was definitely not a prig! When Boromir dies, Aragorn's emotions spill to the surface, and he is distraught. What is more, this shakes his own faith in himself."Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now?" This scene has always deeply affected me, not only as I found Boromir fascinating, but I hated to see Aragorn so distressed and shaken.

I have been trying to think of the best word to describe the loyalty and love which Aragorn inspires in others, and I think the word is fealty. He inspires fraternal love, the urge to follow his lead, to strive to be like him. Again, this reminds me of certain military leaders who have been admired by their troops. Interestingly, it is this which attracts Eowyn to him, showing that this admiration is not just felt by the males in Middle Earth!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The points that Lalwende raises about Aragorn's name reminds me of something that I posted to another thread earlier this summer. I will indulge myself and reprint a bit of that post here:


• ‘Ar’ is Old English (the language that Professor Tolkien devoted his professional life to studying and teaching) and has several meanings. When applied to a person it denotes a messenger, in particular a servant or herald of God (angel or apostle). When presented as a quality it means glory, honour, reverence, dignity, grace, favour or pity.

• ‘agorn’ (in OE) means to have or possess, or to deliver and restore; it can also mean to come forth, grow, or approach.

Aragorn’s name therefore has been very carefully chosen by Tolkien to mean the possession, approach and restoration of all that ‘ar’ denotes.

It didn't occur to me at the time, but Strider's characterisation in this chapter brings all this out nicely: his heroic nature is not immediatly apparent but is instead allowed to "come forth, grow" throughout the chapter. He also introduces himself to the Hobbits as a friend of Gandalf (and thus as an 'angelic' herald?) and it is, pointedly, only when the hobbits meet Aragorn and begin to trust him that they do get the letter from Gandalf (and thus truly an angelic message, that is attesting to the heroism -- ar -- of Aragorn).

[Guinevere]

But I must admit,' he added with a queer laugh, 'that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust & longs for friendship Like Davem, I always find this very touching!

My impression of Aragorn is not of a "flat character"at all. (Yes, I've read the whole "psychological depth in Tolkien's characters" thread! and I don't want to start a discussion. this is just my opinion. ) There's much more to him than meets the eye, and throughout the book we get to know more about him.

When I reread the chapter now, I wonder a bit about the broken sword - was Aragorn really lugging that around everywhere? "not much use" as a weapon, indeed... But I guess it came in handy in this scene to prove he was the real Strider! ;)

Your information about the anapests and yambic verse was interesting, Fordim. (I have nearly forgotten all that I've learnt once, it seems...)

[davem]

A couple of other things struck me in this chapter - one: Frodo having to accustom himself to being suspicious of others. He's left a world where most of those around him weren't any kind of threat, they were people he'd grown up around, who he knew well for the most part. The threat came from strangers, & they were few & far between. Now he's entered a world where almost everyone is a stranger, & a potential mortal enemy - even getting up in a pub & singing a song can lead to disaster. He must from now on be suspicious of everyone he meets, & that's not his nature. Its another step on the road to his corruption by the Ring. He can't retain his innocence because the Ring is too dangerous. Another example of how the Ring works subtly to corrupt anyone who possesses it.

Two: the first appearance of the 'Black Breath' (or Black Shadow). Merry here gets his first experience of it - the next will be on Pelennor Fields. The presence of evil draws him towards it, & then the Black Breath causes him to fall into an evil dream (why does he dream of falling into 'deep water', I wonder?). The dream induced by the Black Breath produces evil dreams & ultimately death, but do the Nazgul actually 'breathe' out a poison onto their victims, or is it something else, a magical aura which surrounds them? So, evil draws the individual to it, swallows them up in a nightmare & finally takes their life, but why is evil seductive in that way:what is Tolkien saying? Its also interesting that at the end of the Barrow Downs chapter its Merry who had the strange dream of having been slain by the men of Carn Dum, servants of the Witch King - he does seem destined to have run ins with him, though why Merry is so drawn to this source of evil is another question.

[Lhunardawen]

But that is enough of such silliness. End of swoon. Return to more sensible posts.

But sir, Aragorn deserves all the swooning he can get! As long as someone explains the reason for swooning...but is that even called swooning at all? Anyway... :)

davem, I believe the Black Breath is merely the aura of evil surrounding the Nazgul, which comes from within them (kind of like "what is in the heart spills out" or something like that). This can be proven by the infliction of so many soldiers in the Battle of the Pelennor...oops. *curtsies to Esty*

And evil indeed works similar to the way the Black Breath does. You may have no intention nor desire of being entangled with it, but as long as you are exposed to evil, you will inevitably be caught up, but not necessarily imprisoned, within it.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The Black Breath is indeed an effective way for Tolkien to manifest the 'power' or effect of evil -- or, rather, his view of evil. A breath is something that has an effect, one can feel it, but it has no substance of its own. A breath is an effect (of one person blowing on another) and not a thing in and off itself. Breath is also germaine to life and living, so the Black Breath would seem to be something that is contrary to life, but not some kind of indepedent (Manichean?) opposite to life -- it's not death, but deathly. Like the Nazgul themselves who are caught in the middle realm, "neither living nor dead" (if I might be allowed to quote movie-Aragorn). This perhaps points the way toward an understanding of the dreams Merry has -- the effect of the Nazgul (and the Wights) is a death-like suspension in a dream realm. The Black Breath cannot rob one of life (the "divine spark"?) it can only overwhelm one with a sleep. This is, of course, on the 'magical' or 'spiritual' level that they seem to be operating -- the Black Riders can easily kill somone with their sword, but that's a physical death, not a death of the spirit.

One final note that's just come to me as I review the chapter. There's an interesting way in which Butterbur, of all people, is being connected to Treebeard!! Bear with me:

When Butterbur finally remembers the letter he says:

But now I don't know what he'll have to say to me, if I see him again: turn all my ale sour or me into a block of wood, I shouldn't wonder. He's a bit hasty.

And in Gandalf's letter, as has already been alluded to in the thread, he refers to the innkeeper as

A worthy man, but his memory is like a lumber-room.

One last connection, slender though it might be (like a willow branch) is the absence of any Mrs. Butterbur. As far as I can recall, this is the only house-with-fire-light in the book in which there is not a female presence. Like the ents without their entwives, Butterbur lacks the 'balance' of the feminine?

Oh! And one more think just popped into my head. It's here at the Pony that Aragorn is hoping to meet Gandalf but does not, and he's come here in order to try and find and protect the hobbits. It's in Fangorn that Aragorn meets Gandalf when he does not expect to, and he goes to Fangorn in the first place to find and protect the hobbits!

Butterbur as some kind of human/comic form of an Ent? He and Treebeard do seem to 'bracket' Aragorn's journey in a sense, or, at least, an important stage of his journey. Here in Butterbur's realm he takes up the task of aiding the Ring Bearer, and in Treebeard's realm he sets that task aside. It seems that in some way Aragorn is himself 'moving' (not growing, he is already perfect!) from Butterbur to Treebeard.

Oh oh oh! Butterbur has a terrible memory -- he remembers nothing, including the lore that would tell him who Strider really is. He lacks the abilty to give Aragorn the recognition that he deserves. Treebeard's memory on the other hand. . .enough said. Of course, Aragorn and Treebeard do not actually meet in Fangorn (getting ahead of myself again, sorry) perhaps implying that Aragorn is moving into a time/realm when he will be remembered, but not quite yet? Must look up the part when Treebeard finally does greet Aragorn. . .

[Lhunardawen]

One last connection, slender though it might be (like a willow branch) is the absence of any Mrs. Butterbur. As far as I can recall, this is the only house-with-fire-light in the book in which there is not a female presence. Like the ents without their entwives, Butterbur lacks the 'balance' of the feminine?

Senseless as this might be, the absence of Mrs. Butterbur may be one of the reasons why I hardly found the Inn comforting. There is always a certain comfort that the presence of a female offers, as we can feel at Tom Bombadil's house, or in Rivendell, or in Lothlorien.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting thoughts on the Inn/Barliman/Gandalf/Aragorn, Fordim! There's a connection at the end of the story to which I'd like to point only briefly, but as it's a bookend type reference, it does deserve mentioning here. Gandalf accompanies the Hobbits to the Pony but leaves them after that. As his failure to meet them there sparks the beginning of their growth to independence, his leaving them to take care of the Scouring alone marks the reached goal of their growth!

[tar-ancalime]

As far as I can recall, this is the only house-with-fire-light in the book in which there is not a female presence.

But what about Bag End? Bilbo and Frodo are both lifelong bachelors. The only woman associated with Bag End is Lobelia, and she doesn't exactly inspire feelings of comfort and security.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Good point! But there is one other female character associated with Bag End: Rosie! The whole point and purpose of Sam's journey is to bring it about that he and Rosie literally "end up" together in Bag End ("Well. . .I'm back"). From the point of view of the hobbits and the Shire, the whole point of the War of the Ring is to 'redeem' Bag End from its bachelor existence to a properly domestic one.

[tar-ancalime]

Oh, shame on me! I'd forgotten that Sam and Rosie do live together in Bag End. I suppose you're quite right about "the point of view of the hobbits and the Shire:" Bilbo and Frodo are extraordinary hobbits in any number of ways, but Sam and Rosie are nothing if not "properly domestic."

(Keeping this post short as I know it's off topic.)

[davem]

What is it with Merriadoc Brandybuck? Of course, they're queer folk in Buckland, but this guy is a bit too suspicious! He knows too much, he's too organised, he has wierd dreams, thinking he's someone who died hundreds of years previously. He gets mistaken for a Black Rider at one point, then he goes chasing off after them through Bree, has another wierd dream at that point, goes on to help kill the Witch King, & comes home, becomes one of the three most powerful figures in the Shire, counsellor to King Elessar no less, & then goes on to write BOOKS!!! And not just 'sensible books', either, but even one on 'old words in the Shire' (why this guy's a philologist, for goodness sake!).

I think we should be told!

[Mark]

We have to take into consideration the fact that hobbits are not a weak creature. We have Frodo here, willing to take the ring to its doom, his faithful friend (servant) Sam... who would die for Frodo's sake, if he could. And, the two friends that joined them, braver than most I should say.

Merry does know too much, and he is a little sneak, along with his friends. He grew to know that the ring had power, power above all... and that it was also evil. But if you notice, niether Merry or Pippin attempted to take the ring from Frodo, showing the "soft" side that hobbits have.

Anyways, back to buisness... you ask why Merry chased the Wraiths, or why he sneaked on them? In my opinion... I think thats what any of the other hobbits have done... they knew a dear friend (Frodo) was in danger from the 9, and that they could kill him. Sam probably would have done double the work of Merry... and gotten himself killed at that also.

We know that hobbits are small, we know they like songs, they live in holes... they ignore outer life and live in there own bubble of peace. But, (as we will see when we get on with the book) that hobbits are NOT such a gentle creature when angered. Merry must have felt a great anger towards the 9, and took matters into his own hands. It may even be so that he went outside for that matter.

The 4 hobbits act like a family, if one is hurt, they do not leave without them. As we have seen in the Great Forest, when Merry and Pippin were eaten by a big tree... wouldnt you have run for your own life instead of awaiting the tree which acts on its own behalf? I would, but the hobbits, they tried to get the two outside of the tree, and onto solid ground.... then, when all else fails, they called unto the help of Tom.

To answer your question davem, basically, hobbits are not what we know them as. They are a very complex creature that could perform tasks no grown human man could do.

[davem]

Anyways, back to buisness... you ask why Merry chased the Wraiths, or why he sneaked on them? In my opinion... I think thats what any of the other hobbits have done... they knew a dear friend (Frodo) was in danger from the 9, and that they could kill him. Sam probably would have done double the work of Merry... and gotten himself killed at that also.

Well, that's as may be, but I still think he's hiding something! Those Bucklanders are queer, living on the wrong side of the Brandywine, too close to the old forest. That Mr Merry knows more'n is good for a hobbit.

(Oh, & welcome to the Down's ;) )

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by The Perky Ent
Several things in the letter intrigued me. First off, how Gandalf knew Frodo used It. If it's explained in the book, I apologize for my ignorance, but does Gandalf have the ability to sense it, in one way or another?
I like to think that Gandalf was referring to Bilbo’s use of the ring while in the Shire, when he uses the term ‘again’.


The Enemy has set traps for me before now. As soon as I had made up my mind, I was ready to tell you whatever you asked. But I must admit,' he added with a queer laugh, 'that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust & longs for friendship.

I agree with davem that it is altogether too easy to forget the troubles that Aragorn had been facing prior to this point, especially later in the story. But this I believe is directly a result of his commanding presence. Like many I have seen in real life, he seems so ‘in control’, one assumes that all aspects of his life are also in order.

I agree with with Helen that Aragorn generally has a valid reason for being abupt. I was tempted to think in this current instance with Butterburr, that the innkeeper actually slammed rangers first, provoking a negative reaction. But Helen’s remark about Aragorn knowing that he was Frodo’s best hope, seems much more in keeping with the character.

Lalwendë, I think that your comment about the poem being applicable to Gandalf is a interesting observation.

And yes, one certainally can make out a connection between Merry and the wraiths. One that I hadn't been aware of until reading through the story again with the benefit of these threads!


One point that I would like to mention is how Aragorn at times speaks of Strider as though he is a different individual.
“Well,” said Strider, “with Sam’s permission we will call it settled. Strider will be your guide."
It is as if Aragorn is reaching into his closet and is picking out which hat to wear. And since he has been known by quite a few names, I wonder if he acted similarly when he was known as Thorongil. Like Gandalf, these names seem to be given him, rather than being chosen by him to mark a change, (as Turin seemed fond of doing). Is this to imply that he is always the same, though different people view him one way or another? Golden always, but at times well worn and at others polished.

[Mark]

Well, that's as may be, but I still think he's hiding something! Those Bucklanders are queer, living on the wrong side of the Brandywine, too close to the old forest. That Mr Merry knows more'n is good for a hobbit.

Yes, we know the Bucklanders are a strange and queer kind, as you put it, but you have to understand something. Hobbits appear to be a simple creature, pure at that too, not all hobbits are! Gollum was once considered a hobbit-like creature, but he's a different case.

Even though it appears like Merry has turned too nosey, or is beginning to dig himself into deep trouble, it is not so. For Merry would break his almost childlike look and humerous attitude if he had done so. Merry was probably not just going for a walk, and I dont think anyone who knows that wraiths are circling the town would walk outside. Merry wanted to see them, to get some hints, something that would help Frodo and the others, but, he was not doing anything against his heart... he was doing it out of love for his friend, who has the bigger burden.

(Oh, & welcome to the Down's ;) )
Thanks!

[davem]

Even though it appears like Merry has turned too nosey, or is beginning to dig himself into deep trouble, it is not so.

That's as may be, but all that book-learnin' can't be good for a body, an' I don't see that no good ever come of it. I don't see what cause respectable Shire-folk would have to go chasin black men through the streets at night when they should be tucked up at home in bed, like civilised folk.

[Mithalwen]

Just shows that upper class eccentricity can sometimes mask real courage and talent...... in a later age Merry would have been one of those really unlikely people who were actually completely vital to SOE and Bletchley Park......

[Encaitare]

Wecome to the Downs, Mark!

About Merry-- perhaps the fact that he is associated with the Riders is almost a form of foreshadowing towards his "destiny," if you will, to aid in the slaying of the Witch-King (not to get ahead of the discussion again, but it just had to be said.)

(Originally posted by Hilde Bracegirdle)
It is as if Aragorn is reaching into his closet and is picking out which hat to wear. And since he has been known by quite a few names, I wonder if he acted similarly when he was known as Thorongil. Like Gandalf, these names seem to be given him, rather than being chosen by him to mark a change, (as Turin seemed fond of doing). Is this to imply that he is always the same, though different people view him one way or another? Golden always, but at times well worn and at others polished.

Makes sense to me. Aragorn's character never really changes all that much; he is always the good, noble man with many facets:

1. the suspicious, mysterious but eventually kindly Strider who "looks foul and feels fair"

2. the wise advisor Thorongil who comes and goes only as he is needed (much, indeed, like Gandalf)

3. Estel, which could possibly be argued to be his more compassionate side, as it does mean "Hope." It could even symbolize Aragorn's innocence, and how this innocence was lost when his real name was revealed to him.

4. the strong leader Aragorn who is a rallying point on the battlefield and a good, trustworthy friend

5. the just King Elessar Telcontar (and with the Telcontar bit he ties it all back to his humble history) who restores peace to Middle-earth

[Mark]

That's as may be, but all that book-learnin' can't be good for a body, an' I don't see that no good ever come of it. I don't see what cause respectable Shire-folk would have to go chasin black men through the streets at night when they should be tucked up at home in bed, like civilised folk.

Who said hobbits were civilized?
Hobbits are nothing near civilized, the whole race is considered strange. You could never estimate what they would do. Thats for the general population, now, for the 4 hobbits. Well, lets look at it this way:

Frodo: Inherited the ring from Biblo, which Bilbo stole from Gollum. Biblo was beginning to become crazy, the ring had taken a hold on him and he broke that hold, for good or for bad. Frodo, the peaceful Frodo that is only a youth in hobbittown times, inherits the ring that rules them all. Frodo can feel power at his hands, the whole timeframe of middle earth depends on this one ring, this small golden thing hung around his neck.... and he was sent to distroy it. At this time in the book, we can expect that Frodo might take the ring for himself, afterall, he is just a kid. Frodo, sent on an emmence task with his faithful servant only to learn that he was stuck to go with 2 more. We could go on with Frodo, but to finish his part, lets just say.... he's not what hobbits call "sane".

Sam: Sam the friendly gardener, Sam, the one who spied on his best friend, his buddy. Sam, that little boy, the small and weak one, listening and mendling with the affairs of wizards. Sam, the crazy one, actually wanting to go to mount doom. Sam too, does not fit the discription of a normal hobbit.

Pippin & Merry: Pippin, oh Pippin. Not much is said about Pippin i'm afraid, but we can tell that he has a good sense of humor, along with his best friend Merry. The two convinced Sam to turn "against" Frodo, to spy and collect as much information.
Pippin and Merry, the two stubborn friends that stick to Frodo like melted cheese (Yum!). We can tell that Merry had not alot of fear, having the courage to stand up to the wraiths. Pippin, having the courage to walk fearless into the Great Forest, along with Merry, and the others. From what we know, hobbits like to stick to the places they live in. These two, also do not fit the discription.

As we can see, this group of hobbits are nothing near "civilized", so, we cannot expect them to act as such. Each one of these hobbits has there own advantages and disadvantages, and we know that Merry went out for the "walk" on other buisness. He was trying to get something, something to help the 4 hobbits, we can tell that they were not in any good situation, Merry attempted to take them off gaurd, or get any kind of clue. Perhaps he was looking to find a weakness, something that could end the shrieks and the shivers.

[Lalwendë]

Hello and welcome Mark - interesting thoughts you've posted!

I wouldn't say hobbits were uncivilised, but this could start a whole new topic (I have a vague theory about hobbits) so I'll leave it there. But, Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Sam are by no means 'ordinary' hobbits.

Why did Merry go out to 'take the air'? I like to think it was simple curiosity, that he was a very nosy hobbit. I would suspect that hobbits are a nosy race in general, living in villages close to one another, and coupled with the alleged daring spirit that comes with having Brandybuck blood, Merry's behaviour does not surprise me.

[Encaitare]

Despite the fact that Frodo was a bit unusual, being a Baggins, I would not go so far to say that hobbits were uncivilized. They certainly did not consider themselves strange! :) Frodo was settling in to becoming quite a "normal" hobbit when all of a sudden he was called to go on his quest.

Sam does seem to be more of an exception to what makes a "normal" hobbit in that he loves tales of Elves and far-away places. And Merry and Pippin, being a Brandybuck and a Took, are rather adventurous.

Anyway, I think what davem meant was that the average Hobbiton resident would have looked down upon these particular individuals' tendency to have dealings/interests with the "outside world" and their adventures -- until, that is, they became heroes and saved their country.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting thoughts on Merry, and I'm enjoying davem's humorous hobbitish take on the issue! :D I looked back at the last chapter, where he decides not to join them in the common room, to see if there's a clue to his reason. I read: Merry said it would be too stuffy. Now that sounds just like a reason I'd have for going out to walk instead of joining a bunch of strangers in a smoky barroom! He must have been used to a life in the fresh air and just might have needed some oxygen. He didn't necessarily intend to go outside at first, saying: I shall sit here quietly by the fire for a bit, and perhaps go out later for a sniff of the air. As a matter of fact, when he came back he said that he'd stayed indoors for an hour, going out only after realizing that his friends were't coming back to the room soon. That sounds more like a contemplative personality, needing a little time to himself after being surrounded by his (talkative?) friends all day. Someone who can think and plan as he has shown himself able to needs time to settle and organise his thoughts.

What does make me pause to think is when he says that he was "drawn" to follow the Wraith. We've only heard of the terror they inspire - what could have drawn him to them? The terror came later.

[mark12_30]

Wasn't Frodo also drawn to them despite his terror? And also, tempted to put on the Ring. I get the impression that their powers of suggestion/ temptation were significant.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Yes, but I thought Frodo was drawn by the Ring. Merry didn't have that object to channel any attraction.

[mark12_30]

Well, I always thought so too, but now I'm having some second thoughts. Maybe what Frodo experienced was partially, or mostly, the Ring's effect.

Perhaps as we read, we can keep an eye out for non-Ring-bearer types being drawn to evil, and any evidence of Frodo's being drawn by something other than the Ring.

[davem]

Interesting thoughts on Merry, and I'm enjoying davem's humorous hobbitish take on the issue!

What can I say - I am in fact a hobbit ;) (how many other pipe smokers do we have on the Downs?)

It is quite strange that the Nazgul have both the power to repel & to attract those (supposedly) opposed to them. What exactly draws Merry to them? He is clearly a quiet, thoughtful type - I can't see Pippin getting involved without Merry's influence. I wonder how much of Tolkien there is in Merry - as I said earlier, he is the closest thing we have to a philologist - how many of us could imagine a hobbit writing a treatise on Old Words & Names in the Shire, & more to the point, how many hobbits would be interested in reading it? He seems drawn to the Nazgul (or the Ulairi - I love that word, one of my favourite of Tolkien's words!) almost from the first, & he also seems to have been destined to encounter the Rohirrim - an encounter with 'Anglo-Saxon' which insprired him to become a philologist in the way it inspired Tolkien. What does this say about Tolkien's concept of 'fate'?

So, why is Merry the 'forgotten' hobbit? The more attention we pay to him the more complex he becomes. He seems to be on a quest of his own, one he seeks out - I can't help wondering whether if Frodo hadn't given him the excuse to go off travelling he wouldn't have found some other reason to go off exploring the wide world. Maybe it wasn't just Frodo & Sam who were inspired by Mr Bilbo's tales of high adventure.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The more attention we pay to him the more complex he becomes. Agreed, davem! This chapter-by-chapter discussion has gotten me thinking more deeply about Merry for the first time! I'm beginning to admire his qualities and am looking forward to finding out more about him in the coming discussions.

Isn't the depth of various characters, not just the heroic few, what makes the book so rich?!

[Mark]

Isn't the depth of various characters, not just the heroic few, what makes the book so rich?!


I agree with Estelyn on that one.

It is quite strange that the Nazgul have both the power to repel & to attract those (supposedly) opposed to them.

We forget the whole concept that the 9 aslo hold rings. Perhaps the rings they hold give them this kind of power? afterall, they are supposed to be the "9 Kings of mortal men" dont you think the rings they hold on to would give them the power to attract or repel any mortal? Its just my opinion

What exactly draws Merry to them? He is clearly a quiet, thoughtful type - I can't see Pippin getting involved without Merry's influence. I wonder how much of Tolkien there is in Merry

That proves again, Hobbits are not as we understand them to be, all hobbits are more complex than they seem

[HerenIstarion]

Just a minor point, concerning hobbits and civilization:

It seems that hobbits are indeed uncivilized - meaning they do not live in big cities, rather townships, and the main population is rustic. As civilization is based on stem civis, they must be uncivilized. That does not mean they are uncultured, ultimately based on the same root as 'cultivate', meaning they have worked out how to till :), and hobbits are farmers.

Minor point over.

Not to stray overly off topic - the given chapter provides interesing fact: the safety of the Shire, the thing considered as built-in, given, 'as it must be' by the inhabitants themselves (and by yours truly after reading the Hobbit but before LoTR and this chapter in particular) is revealed to be no more than 'watchful peace', kept by same much rebuked and scorned at rangers as Aragorn/Strider is:

I have often kept watch on the borders of the Shire in the last few years, when he was busy elsewhere. He seldom left it unguarded

Implication is that in recent years Aragorn kept the watch, but there were others, and before recent years too, as we know that Gandalf grew fond of the Shire almost at its foundation time

cheers

[Evisse the Blue]

Merry saying that he felt as if he drowned in deep water is one of the very few instances in the book which brings chills of terror down my spine. Deep water (especially deep muddy water) means death or the foreshadowing of death, take for instance --don't laugh now-- Anna Karenina's similar vision before she takes her own life.

But I did not bring this thread up just to say this, (that would have been really flippant of me :p ) but to ask about this fragment:

Merry and Frodo are talking about Frodo's little 'accident':
"But I wish I had been thee to see. The worthies of Bree will be discussing it a hundred years hence."
"I hope so" said Strider.

Maybe a silly question, but why exactly does Aragorn say that? Why would he 'hope' that, when it would have been in their best interest that this incident be forgotten as soon as possible?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Maybe a silly question, but why exactly does Aragorn say that? Why would he 'hope' that, when it would have been in their best interest that this incident be forgotten as soon as possible?

I assume he means that he hopes that there will still be a Bree in a hundred years -- that is, that Sauron will not have wiped it out. So right from the get-go it would seem that Aragorn has a full and deep sense of what is at stake in this journey: much more so than the hobbits.

Also interesting that he is hoping for the continued existence, in all of its triviality (i.e. gossip) of a place in which he is regarded as little better than an outlaw!

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Firing up an old thread, are we?

I wonder how much of Tolkien there is in Merry - as I said earlier, he is the closest thing we have to a philologist - how many of us could imagine a hobbit writing a treatise on Old Words & Names in the Shire, & more to the point, how many hobbits would be interested in reading it?
I think that given that "...hobbits delighted in (elaborate family trees with innumerable branches)..." (Prologue) indicates that this sort of thing might not be so far fetched for them. We have this image of hobbits as a sort of rustic, almost serf-like culture. I think that in truth they are much more sophisticated than that. Let's not let a single example of several "working-class" hobbits talking in a tavern (Chapter 1) influence our image of the entire culture.

We forget the whole concept that the 9 aslo hold rings.
Not too fast, there. Don't forget that Sauron held the rings of the nine - not the nine.

[alatar]

In the first billion or so readings of this chapter I just glossed over the following, but subsequent readings/listenings (via audio CD) and the PJ movies made the part about Narsil stick out like the proverbial oliphaunt in the room. In this chapter Aragorn shows the hobbits the shards of Narsil which, obviously, he is carrying around with him. This begs the questions:
Does Aragorn carry another sword with which he fights, or prior to the reforging of Anduril did he rush into battle, yelling, "Stubby! Stubby for Elendil!"
Why did Aragorn need or desire to carry this heirloom, presumably useless but extremely valuable (saved at large cost when other heirlooms weren't), while walking the wdith and breadth of Wilderland? Was there some benefit that I'm not seeing, or didn't he trust leaving it behind with Elrond, who may have sent it to Gondor just the get the Dúnedain out of his house and away from Arwen ;) ? Did Strider think that the broken sword would be recognized as verification of his identity? was he commanded or honor bound to do so?
Did he have any weapon, save fire, at the Fords?
Is not then PJ's version of event slightly more logical (did I just write that? :eek: ) ?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Is not then PJ's version of event slightly more logical (did I just write that? :eek: ) ?

You did, and may God have mercy on your soul....for you agree with me.

[symestreem]

Does Aragorn carry another sword with which he fights, or prior to the reforging of Anduril did he rush into battle, yelling, "Stubby! Stubby for Elendil!"

:D

Merry saying that he felt as if he drowned in deep water is one of the very few instances in the book which brings chills of terror down my spine. Deep water (especially deep muddy water) means death or the foreshadowing of death, take for instance --don't laugh now-- Anna Karenina's similar vision before she takes her own life.


Isn't it interesting that Merry in particular should feel like he was drowning in deep water? Hobbits are notorious for their dislike of swimming, and Merry was the only one of the four who had experience with water, except for Frodo's early and tragic encounter.

What would Pippin, or Sam, or Frodo have felt if they had gotten close to the Ringwraiths (ignoring for the moment the fact that they would have attacked Frodo and taken the Ring)? None of them would have known what it feels like to be caught in deep water. Would the instinctive hobbit fear of it have supplied the sensation anyway, or would they have felt something else that frightened them? And if the former, why did Merry feel like he was drowning-- does this indicate that the Brandybucks, despite their close proximity, have the same instinctive fear of water deep down?

[Selmo]

Why did Aragorn need or desire to carry this heirloom, presumably useless but extremely valuable (saved at large cost when other heirlooms weren't), while walking the wdith and breadth of Wilderland?

Ordinary swords would not have been much use against the Nine. Maybe Aragorn felt that Narsil, as a symbol of Sauron's earlier defeat, would have a powerful effect on them, although, when it came to a fight, he decided that fire would be more useful.

I assume that he carried other weapons; there could be enemies more mortal than the Nazgul between Bree and Rivendell, who would not be awed by a broken sword.
.

[alatar]

Ordinary swords would not have been much use against the Nine. Maybe Aragorn felt that Narsil, as a symbol of Sauron's earlier defeat, would have a powerful effect on them, although, when it came to a fight, he decided that fire would be more useful.

I assume that he carried other weapons; there could be enemies more mortal than the Nazgul between Bree and Rivendell, who would not be awed by a broken sword.
.
Exactly, but as far as we know, he'd spent all of those years wandering Middle Earth with the Shards and no other sword of worth. Maybe that's why he was the best warrior of the age - after fighting all of those years with a broken sword, he was deadly with a full-sized one. Anyway, isn't it fortuitous that Aragorn needs no sword until he acquires Anduril? Does he put away his other sword, trusty (rusty) and faithful all of those years in some off-stage ceremony? Or was he the master of improv, taking advantage of the environment, picking up (and making) weaponry as he went?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Or was he the master of improv, taking advantage of the environment, picking up (and making) weaponry as he went?
McGyvagorn!! :D

[Selmo]

I assume that he carried other weapons.

We are not given all the details of Aragorn's life.

We're told that he ate, but we are not told that he coped with the inevitable (and smelly) consequences of eating.
We can safely assume that he did.

We're told that he was a great warrior, but we're not told that he carried weapons.
We can safely assume that he did.
.

[Guinevere]

When I reread the chapter now, I wonder a bit about the broken sword - was Aragorn really lugging that around everywhere? "not much use" as a weapon, indeed... But I guess it came in handy in this scene to prove he was the real Strider! ;)
As you see, I had wondered about this too in 2004, but no one else seemed interested in this question then.

I quite agreee with Selmo!
When Aragorn was (As Thorongil) in the service of Thengel and of Ecthelion II , he must have had another sword!
For the scene in Bree the broken Narsil was necessary for the plot to identify Aragorn, and I just guess that for once Tolkien didn't think of the consequences...

As for PJ having the better idea by showing Narsil being kept in Rivendell, I agree, but from then on, Aragorn should have carried Anduril. Elrond later traveling all the way after him to bring the sword is just ridiculous!!

[alatar]

We are not given all the details of Aragorn's life.

We're told that he ate, but we are not told that he coped with the inevitable (and smelly) consequences of eating.
We can safely assume that he did.

We're told that he was a great warrior, but we're not told that he carried weapons.
We can safely assume that he did.
I'll give you your biological assumption, as these are purportedly humans and that's a requirement for all life. Can't agree that we can assume that he carried another weapon, as it's never mentioned (or if it is, someone will note it), and the only weapon that he displays to the Hobbits (and that they note) is the broken Narsil. He may have, when serving in Rohan, Gondor and other realms, carried weapons that completed his disguises, but when guiding the Ringbearer and company from Bree to Rivendell we know of no other weapons.

The logic of your first point applies to both Barliman and Aragorn (if human, then...), but your second point does not (the Innkeeper carried a cudgel/club methinks, and not a sword or shards of one, and even the club was only a later addition). Maybe he was a master of empty-handed combat?

Without any other evidence I would assume that Aragorn made due with what he carried or picked up when serving in whatever army. And we still haven't answered the question of why he was taking Narsil out for a walk ;).


For the scene in Bree the broken Narsil was necessary for the plot to identify Aragorn, and I just guess that for once Tolkien didn't think of the consequences...
Narsil verifies Aragorn to us, the readers, but does it really convince the Hobbits? The rhyme in Gandalf's letter regarding the reforging of Narsil does not say that the broken sword shall show the real Aragorn. Sam sees the evidence and still doubts. And what if this Strider were a play-acting spy? If he carried the broken sword and a real unbroken sword, how would one know that he didn't slay the real Aragorn to steal Narsil? What better way for the enemy to infiltrate the councils of the Free Folk then for someone to get Narsil than show up looking like Aragorn? Saruman could do it.

The conspiracies grow like weeds in my yard...

[alatar]

As for PJ having the better idea by showing Narsil being kept in Rivendell, I agree, but from then on, Aragorn should have carried Anduril. Elrond later traveling all the way after him to bring the sword is just ridiculous!!
Trust me. PJ's 'getting it right' moments don't last very long. ;)

[ninja91]

I wonder: what if Frodo had listened to Sam and not chosen to go with Strider. Would he have forced himself upon them?
I dont think so. I think he would have followed and watched over them. Any other ideas?

[the phantom]

And we still haven't answered the question of why he was taking Narsil out for a walk
Some athletes have a lucky pair of socks. One sprinter always had a piece of paper in his shoe with the World Record time written on it. A friend of mine kept in his baseball bag a 2nd place trophy from his little league days, as it reminded him that had he gotten a hit his last time at bat in the championship game he would've had a 1st place trophy instead of a 2nd. It was there to motivate him and drive him to work harder so as to avoid yet another failure.

Narsil is the ultimate reminder. It reminds Aragorn that his ancestors had overcome Sauron and taken his Ring. It says to him, "They did it and I can too."

Narsil also reminds Aragorn that Elendil was killed by Sauron. It says to him, "Avenge me!"

Narsil could also serve as a reminder about Isildur, who fell to the temptation of the Ring. It says to Aragorn, "Don't make the same mistake."

And don't forget that Aragorn has no child to leave his heirlooms to. If Aragorn perishes, the sword might as well perish with him. Aragorn has no children because he will have no one but Arwen, and Arwen he cannot have until he retakes Middle Earth and renews Gondor, and Narsil broken and then reforged could be said to represent the breaking and then reestablishing of the line of Kings. What I mean to say is, the line of Kings and destiny of Gondor lies completely in his hands the same way Narsil does. He cannot push off his fate on another just as he cannot pass Narsil to any other. It is his burden.

Now, I'm not saying Aragorn carried Narsil with him his entire life, but at this point in the story the final chapter has begun- the quest to destroy the Ring as well as the war that is coming to a head. It makes sense to me that this would be the time that Aragorn would, for motivation and symbolism, not allow Narsil to leave his side. Aragorn is about to actually set out for the purpose of renewing Gondor. He is completely shouldering the burden at this point in his life. And in my mind the burden of Narsil goes hand and hand with that.

Or maybe everything I just said is a load of rambling garbage dredged up by an extremely sleepy brain. :p

[alatar]

the phantom has provided the clue that remained obscure to me all of these years. Whether or not Aragorn carried another weapon or fought more like Jackie Chan, I'll leave for another day. The reason, now obvious, that Aragorn was carrying Narsil was that he and the rest of (what will make up) the council were in an endgame. Sauron's Ring had reappeared. Either Sauron would be vanquished, or he would overrule all of Middle Earth. Sure, Narsil might increase the number of visitors at Michel Delving, but it might be of better service in the hands of the heir of the Sauron-bane. Why not? Was the idea to see how the Sword would react (and vice versa) to the Ring when the two were proximal? That's an experiment I'd like to see.

And, as stated, who would get the shards if Aragorn died? He would begat no heir unless he destroyed Sauron. Elrond, sooner or later, was leaving Middle Earth, as was giving away those things that were to remain in the east. What a yard sale that would be!

It all makes sense now. And PJ didn't have the better idea...phew! :eek:

[Formendacil]

And, as stated, who would get the shards if Aragorn died? He would begat no heir unless he destroyed Sauron. Elrond, sooner or later, was leaving Middle Earth, as was giving away those things that were to remain in the east. What a yard sale that would be!

Presumably his next-of-kin, or the next rightful descendent of Isildur.

That descendent may or may not have been as pureblooded a Númenorean as Aragorn, and he (making a presumption here) may have been of a rather less elder line, but Aragorn was NOT, I deem, the only descendent of Aranarth, I would deem. His mother's father, Dírhael, was a descendent of Aranarth, and it would seem likely to assume that he was not the only one.

Now, that does not mean that there wouldn't have been a good deal of strife amongst the Dúnedain of the North, nor that the next in line would have been clear, or that the next in line would have been a good leader- but, assuming all things of that nature were sortable, there would have been a next-in-line, and he would have been the next rightful heir to Narsil.

It is possible, of course, that Elrond would have retained Narsil after Aragorn's death, but upon his departure into the West, Narsil would (with the other heirlooms of Arnor) have been, in proper conduct anyway, returned to the Dúnedain.

It all makes sense now. And PJ didn't have the better idea...phew! :eek:

Never for a minute worry that he did. ;)

[davem]

Couple of debates on this very subject:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/f097ac4f38d55709/5ee397336bec6522?lnk=st&q=narsil+left+at+rivendell&rnum=4&hl=en#5ee397336bec6522
&
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_thread/thread/ab430aea11ee52b2/fe317473c3a291cb?q=lugging+about+a+broken+sword#fe 317473c3a291cb

[Texadan]

the phantom has provided the clue that remained obscure to me all of these years. Whether or not Aragorn carried another weapon or fought more like Jackie Chan, I'll leave for another day. The reason, now obvious, that Aragorn was carrying Narsil was that he and the rest of (what will make up) the council were in an endgame. Sauron's Ring had reappeared. Either Sauron would be vanquished, or he would overrule all of Middle Earth. Sure, Narsil might increase the number of visitors at Michel Delving, but it might be of better service in the hands of the heir of the Sauron-bane. Why not? Was the idea to see how the Sword would react (and vice versa) to the Ring when the two were proximal? That's an experiment I'd like to see.


Aragorn told Boromir at the Council of Elrond, "For the Sword that was Broken is the Sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he fell. It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found." I imagine Aragorn began carrying Narsil when he learned from Gandalf that the ring *had* been found.

[alatar]

Aragorn told Boromir at the Council of Elrond, "For the Sword that was Broken is the Sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he fell. It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found." I imagine Aragorn began carrying Narsil when he learned from Gandalf that the ring *had* been found.
Does Elrond know that the Ring of Bilbo truly is the One Ring until the Council? Aragorn does have the benefit of Elrond's wisdom and foresight, and so even if Elrond wasn't sure if the Ring was the Ring, he most likely could read the signs and figure that Aragorn was either going to be King or the last of that line, and so he (Aragorn) might as well have Narsil as it might play some part unlooked for.

And though there might have been other Heirs, with the return of Sauron, the days and numbers of the Northern Line would be limited.

[Texadan]

Aragorn had spent a bit of time with Gandalf hunting for Gollum and watching the borders of the Shire. So he would know of Gandalf's suspicions and probably learned that Gandalf had confirmed them when he agreed to meet at Bree.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We meet again! This chapter is all about one of my most favouritest ;) characters, Strider/Aragorn. Tolkien does keep us in suspense about his nature and character at the beginning of the chapter. I can feel with him the desire to be accepted for his own sake.

Here's another thing that should have gone right but went wrong - with which results for the quest: Aragorn wanted to warn the Hobbits about going to the common room, but was hindered by Butterbur. What do you think would have been different if they had laid low that evening? Would that have changed anything, perhaps kept the attack from happening?

Strider reacts with pain and tension when asked about the Riders. That would hint at personal experience. Do we have a reference to any encounter of his with them previously? He mentions traps that had been set for him by the Enemy in the past - to what do you suppose that refers?

Then comes the ultimate "what if" scenario - what if Butterbur hadn't forgotten the letter and the Hobbits had left the Shire in the summer?

What causes Butterbur's suspicions about Strider and the Rangers? Is it just the xenophobic tendencies of Bree people? They may be more open to strangers passing through than Shire Hobbits are, but they don't seem to warm to them personally.

Sam is the last of the Hobbits to accept Strider - his provincial nature, or lack of vision for the Ranger's true character?

Why do you think Tolkien inserted Merry's adventure outside? The Black Breath is mentioned for the first time - foreshadowing his illness due to the same cause after the Witch King encounter in RotK, perhaps.

Though the Prancing Pony is not really a safe haven in this night, the presence of Strider provides one for Frodo and his friends.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

We meet again! This chapter is all about one of my most favouritest ;) characters, Strider/Aragorn. Tolkien does keep us in suspense about his nature and character at the beginning of the chapter. I can feel with him the desire to be accepted for his own sake.
One of the most interesting things I find about this chapter is the fact that in the beginning, Tolkien didn't know any better than us readers who Strider really is. It must be interesting and I always wanted to achieve something like that when writing something, unfortunately, I always knew who my characters are when they came. It was their fault, not mine. :)

Concerning Strider, however, he is too mysterious here at the beginning, really. There is time when I really expect him to burst in evil laughter, slay all the Hobbits and then hand them over to the Riders. It is the first paragraph, and it culminates when he says "I had learned that he was carrying out of the Shire, well, a secret that concerned me and my friends". Brr!

One thing I just love, and I always loved it since I read it first and I laughed at it a lot (and read it to my parents, although they did not care at all, but I forced them), is this part:
"They come from Mordor," said Strider in a low voice. "From Mordor, Barliman, if that means anything to you."
"Save us!" cried Mr. Butterbur turning pale.
And of course, before it the remark of Butterbur's: "You! You're always popping up." I think this creates a sort of relief in the wholly darker tone and tension of the chapter. Well, and Gandalf's letter for example. It's nice to see something "Gandalfish" after such a long time, and it is obvious on first sight that this is Gandalf, no fake - such a Gandalfish thing cannot be fake even if the Strider was.

Here's another thing that should have gone right but went wrong - with which results for the quest: Aragorn wanted to warn the Hobbits about going to the common room, but was hindered by Butterbur. What do you think would have been different if they had laid low that evening? Would that have changed anything, perhaps kept the attack from happening?
I actually believe it could. Butterbur causes two things to happen (aside from the whole not sending the letter business): he does not admit Strider up there AND he convinces (or at least offers) the travelers to go into the common room. But actually, even down there all goes well even until Frodo sings the song for the second time. The lesson of the story? Stop at the height of things :)

Strider reacts with pain and tension when asked about the Riders. That would hint at personal experience. Do we have a reference to any encounter of his with them previously? He mentions traps that had been set for him by the Enemy in the past - to what do you suppose that refers?
Yes, I noticed this time as well that Strider is very, very discomforted when he speaks about the Riders. It seems obvious to me now that he encountered them in the past, and probably even more of them. It is possible he met them just recently, when he was hunting for Gollum - we know he was walking in sight of Minas Morgul, which would be a favourable place. But the way he speaks makes me think rather of some deeper and older experience. We see similar behavior of him before Moria - here, he also hints on some old experience of going there. Aragorn, for all his years of journeys all over the Middle-Earth, has surely experienced lots of horrible things, and meeting the Riders and traveling to Moria must have been among the strongest ones. The way he says "I know these Riders" makes me think of really personal experience of an encounter - is it possible that he really, like, spoke to a Ringwraith or something? Or was in the same place with him let's say for a day, for example following him? There are no hints that the Riders would know Aragorn, as far as I'm aware, and that's only logical, as Sauron's best servants would surely be able to discern the heir of Númenor in him, and they will make sure to report to Sauron, who would in turn focus more on Aragorn as person. And we know he didn't until that fateful Palantír contact. So, whatever sort of encounter his contact with the Riders was, it's probable it was more like the following-type one (Aragorn tracking a Rider who burned down a Woodmen village or something).

Then comes the ultimate "what if" scenario - what if Butterbur hadn't forgotten the letter and the Hobbits had left the Shire in the summer?
Then they would safely reach Rivendell and spend the whole autumn wondering what happened to Gandalf. It might even cause some interesting scenarios to take place, culminathing with things like Elladan and Elrohir riding to Isengard. Eru knows how it would end...

What causes Butterbur's suspicions about Strider and the Rangers? Is it just the xenophobic tendencies of Bree people? They may be more open to strangers passing through than Shire Hobbits are, but they don't seem to warm to them personally.
Seems so. Well, I believe Strider says it later - that Butterbur simply "does not trust the likes of him". You know, some vagabonds from the wilderness. As for overall xenophoby... well, I don't want to go too far, but I actually believe the Breelanders ARE quite xenophobic. Just look at their reaction on the Southerners' coming. Why, of course one is worried when lots of strange folks suddenly arrive, because he does not know what to expect from them - but the Breelanders seem a little too touchy on this aspect, overall.

Sam is the last of the Hobbits to accept Strider - his provincial nature, or lack of vision for the Ranger's true character?
I believe the former. He disbelieves even the Bucklanders, or what more, even Farmer Maggot (although that's partially because he was being mean to his master), is afraid at the very look of the Big Folk's houses, and so some Strider, even if he were a 100% proven friend of Gandalf's, does not get enough of his trust. Even after Weathertop, he is worried about Strider.

Why do you think Tolkien inserted Merry's adventure outside? The Black Breath is mentioned for the first time - foreshadowing his illness due to the same cause after the Witch King encounter in RotK, perhaps.
Definitely, and as I hinted in my commentary to the previous chapter, I find this really an interesting part; one of the things that raises my sympathies towards Merry (similarly as it seems to Strider). It is worth mentioning, however, that this is the first time a hobbit directly faces a Nazgul, and it is Merry - who, later, is the one to participate on slaying the Witch-King. We can speculate - does the experience Merry already has ("I am a veteran when it comes to Nazgul encounters") help him in any way later? Or it is merely a "model situation" (from the outside view on the story) that repeats itself later?

[Rumil]

Hi again,

Strider, well, only a couple of points to add.

First on Merry. Why indeed did he go for a stroll round the block? I wonder if it is related to the Barrow incident, Merry appears to have bee the most affected by the experience. Maybe he needed a little time alone to sit and think and a bit of a stroll to clear hs head after his close encounter with mortality? Also this incident marks a change in Merry's role. Up until now he has led the party, but from now on that role is taken by Strider and Gandalf, with Merry taking a back seat.

On Strider and the Nazgul, I agree with Legate that Morgul Vale and the hunt for Gollum are good candidates. I also wonder if Strider had heard report of the fight at Sarn Ford on 22nd September where the Dunedain were overwhelmed by the Black Riders? If so presumably he would have heard of the death of some of his close friends and comrades.

[alatar]

Listening to the unabridged version during the daily commute, I noticed how, in the beginning, when Strider is speaking with Frodo and the other hobbits in the parlor, how much Strider asks that he be rewarded for the information that he has. How soon he then rewarded the hobbits with his services! I understand that, as being accepted as a companion on the road, I assume that then Frodo would be responsible for Aragorn's traveling expenses and upkeep, but how little he charges and how much more of a benefit does he show himself to be.

Also, I too like Strider's small reference to having intimate knowledge of the Nazgul. Think that the lack of great exposition actually works better, as my (and I assume everyone else's) imagination filled in the gaps, wondering if Aragorn fought these mostly obscure creatures, what powers they have, etc.

Too soon do we learn about the Nazgul, they take wing and become less frightening.

[Rumil]

Hi Alatar,

yes I agree with you on the Nazgul, definitely a case of less is more, just like Alien versus Aliens ;). Though they do remain quite scary throughout, what with threats of being borne away to the House of Nameless Lamentations!

[Boromir88]

These last 4 chapters of Book I are fantastic. In this chapter we resolve Frodo's worries at the end of the last chapter:

'Certainly!' said Frodo; but his heart sank. He wondered how many private talks he would have before he got to bed, and what they would reveal. Were these people all in league against him? He began to suspect even old Butterbur's fat face of concealing dark designs.~At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

Perhaps we can relate to Frodo...after doing something so embarrassing, and in public, you just want to hide, go to sleep, and blame in on the ale. But he's now promised 2 private words with strangers. He's even thinking that Butterbur is against him.

I love how Tolkien gives us a chapter focused on Aragorn and learning who he is. More will continue to be revealed about him, but he makes pretty clear he wants to be king:

"I did not know," he answered. "But I am Aragorn, and those verses go with that name." He drew out his sword, and they saw that the blade was indeed broken a foot below the hilt. "Not much use is it, Sam?" said Strider. "But the time is near when it shall be forged anew."

Renewed shall be the blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

Aragorn makes his intentions very clear. But as a character, he's not quite there yet. To the hobbits, to the readers, he's just a grungy man we met in a bar who's carrying around a useless sword. Even after this chapter, he's still just "Strider." I certainly knew as his character gets slowly revealed in his chapter that he was not in "league with the Enemy." I knew he would get the hobbits to Rivendell, but he hasn't "proven his quality," as Sam would put it. He's just got a nice sounding prophecy and a broken heirloom as proof that he is the 'Great King' returning.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This was a nice calm chapter (as far as it can be under the circumstances). This chapter also introduces (properly, after vague hints in the previous one) the first important major character who is going to be with us until the end, and have a quite significant role.

Strider, to me, seems on first sight maybe not "foul" in the way Mr. Baggins probably perceived it, but rather being unnecessarily dramatic and "epic" in the wrong sense: dark. I understand he had spent most of his life traveling alone in the wilderness, but he also had basically a hundred years to meet humans (and others) and therefore one would expect a bit of empathy. "They came from Mordor, MORDOR! And they are more terrible than you can imagine!" is not what you go around telling people who are already scared enough as it is. Especially towards Butterbur, who, as Strider should understand, it a common fellow doing his own, and is not very well educated (even though certainly not stupid) and "big, epic, mystical" stuff is somehow outside his league, well, towards him Strider is just terrible. If this had been a Harry Potter book, Strider would walk around Hogwarts randomly interjecting Voldemort's real name into every sentence. I cannot completely shake off the feeling that he is doing it partly intentionally, just to be mean.

Otherwise, he is of course very helpful. And so is Butterbur, once again surprisingly so maybe for some readers who might have underestimated him on first sight. Aside from having forgotten to send the letter, he is very sharp in figuring out what's going on and what needs to be done.

And the same thing applies even in larger scale to Nob (once again, a character overlooked, I believe, unjustly). Nob seems to know a lot, and seems to act a lot of his own initiative (simulating Mr. "Underhill"'s head, for instance) - something you would not necessarily expect from an "employee" of his kind. He reminds me actually a lot of the classic figure of renaissance (and even later, especially Italian) novels, the "clever servant" who is more clever or wiser than he seems on first sight. If Butterbur is the somehow erratic "master", Nob is the servant who might be in the background, but actually does the important and practical things. Or if I move away from Italian and think Spanish, Nob could have been Sancho Panza.

We also learn a bit more about how the Riders "operate" in this chapter (aside from more scary hints from Strider that he knows their number and such), and also hints on how the Rangers (here represented only by Strider) operate, that they protect the Shire, and about Strider's cooperation with Gandalf. What I personally liked always about this chapter is the description of Merry's little adventure and the mention of the "Black Breath". Whatever it is, it sounds wonderful. By which I mean, of course, scary. But it must be something pretty cool.

[Inziladun]

Strider, to me, seems on first sight maybe not "foul" in the way Mr. Baggins probably perceived it, but rather being unnecessarily dramatic and "epic" in the wrong sense: dark. I understand he had spent most of his life traveling alone in the wilderness, but he also had basically a hundred years to meet humans (and others) and therefore one would expect a bit of empathy. "They came from Mordor, MORDOR! And they are more terrible than you can imagine!" is not what you go around telling people who are already scared enough as it is. Especially towards Butterbur, who, as Strider should understand, it a common fellow doing his own, and is not very well educated (even though certainly not stupid) and "big, epic, mystical" stuff is somehow outside his league, well, towards him Strider is just terrible.

I can see Strider, wanting to make a favorable impression on the hobbits, perhaps deliberately playing up both the seriousness of their plight, and his own ancestry in a dramatic fashion. Maybe he would think that by coming across in that way, he would seem less like a spy for Mordor, or someone with evil intent. Sauron's servants would be more sneaky and covert.

As for Butterbur, Aragorn could have had a similar desire to convince him how dangerous the Nazgûl were, and how important it was to help Frodo. Aragorn knew he himself was suspected by Butterbur, and the Breelanders in general, so he'd want to show that Mordor was the focus.

Otherwise, he is of course very helpful. And so is Butterbur, once again surprisingly so maybe for some readers who might have underestimated him on first sight. Aside from having forgotten to send the letter, he is very sharp in figuring out what's going on and what needs to be done.

I like Butterbur. He reminds me of people I've known in RL: hard working, plain folk with too much to do day-to-day to consider much that goes beyond their routine. Butterbur never wavers in his loyalty to Gandalf, and despite his fear, apparently never considers doing anything to imperil Frodo, even though he had no inkling of the larger picture. I have to admire that.

And the same thing applies even in larger scale to Nob (once again, a character overlooked, I believe, unjustly). Nob seems to know a lot, and seems to act a lot of his own initiative (simulating Mr. "Underhill"'s head, for instance) - something you would not necessarily expect from an "employee" of his kind. He reminds me actually a lot of the classic figure of renaissance (and even later, especially Italian) novels, the "clever servant" who is more clever or wiser than he seems on first sight. If Butterbur is the somehow erratic "master", Nob is the servant who might be in the background, but actually does the important and practical things. Or if I move away from Italian and think Spanish, Nob could have been Sancho Panza.

Nob, too, seems to have no desire to help the evil invading Bree. He and Butterbur both have an innate good, as opposed to Bill Ferny.

We also learn a bit more about how the Riders "operate" in this chapter (aside from more scary hints from Strider that he knows their number and such), and also hints on how the Rangers (here represented only by Strider) operate, that they protect the Shire, and about Strider's cooperation with Gandalf. What I personally liked always about this chapter is the description of Merry's little adventure and the mention of the "Black Breath". Whatever it is, it sounds wonderful. By which I mean, of course, scary. But it must be something pretty cool.

The operations of the Nazgûl in the Shire and Bree, are to me more fearsome than their later overt terror-raising. The enemy you barely see is always more frightening than one in the open. Bree and the Shire knew nothing about the Ringwraiths, which would only increase the fear about them.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Strider, to me, seems on first sight maybe not "foul" in the way Mr. Baggins probably perceived it, but rather being unnecessarily dramatic and "epic" in the wrong sense: dark. I understand he had spent most of his life traveling alone in the wilderness, but he also had basically a hundred years to meet humans (and others) and therefore one would expect a bit of empathy. "They came from Mordor, MORDOR! And they are more terrible than you can imagine!" is not what you go around telling people who are already scared enough as it is.

I'm inclined to think that Aragorn, quite rightly, saw that these careless Hobbits needed a serious reality check. Scared to death? In one of the movies' few decent original lines, "Not nearly frightened enough."

[Nerwen]

I'm inclined to think that Aragorn, quite rightly, saw that these careless Hobbits needed a serious reality check. Scared to death? In one of the movies' few decent original lines, "Not nearly frightened enough."
Yes, we must remember the context (in both the original and the film) is that Pippin and Frodo had been making themselves all too conspicuous. And Butterbur probably needs to be warned what he's dealing with- that said, Aragorn obviously doesn't like him and possibly takes an unworthy satisfaction in scaring him.

[Formendacil]

Nothing leapt out at me specifically with "I must write about that on the Downs" reading through this chapter, and rereading the thread has not prompted anything distinct either (though this is one of the best CbC threads I've reread yet, so let us blame that one holding an only partially asleep infant while reading it).

Nonetheless, I want to say *something*, because I share the sentiment of a number of posters over the years in this thread who love this chapter. The comparison is made above that "Strider" is rather like "A Conspiracy Unmasked" in that it is largely a chapter of dialogue in a place of pause. That happens to be one of my favourite things--I have just enough of an actor left in me from middle school to enjoy reading the dialogue aloud from favourite authors, and Aragorn is a favourite--Gandalf too, and though he does not appear here, his voice does in the form of that letter.

One of the joys of re-reading a favourite text is reencountering beloved characters, and having Aragorn join the story has more of a sense of "finally!" than anyone else. With Strider in the picture, the main cast seems complete, because even if he isn't the main character, I'd argue that he is a main character--even if his much of his purpose is to provide contrast to the doings of the Hobbits, and to show that even in the Kingly and Heroic the greatest virtues are those shared with the humble and Hobbit-like, it is still the case that to show this, he must be a prominent character. And his is--in The Two Towers and The Return of the King, when the action separates the Hobbits and we have none to follow, Aragorn becomes our de facto protagonist, even if he remains a secondary character in terms of the epic as a whole.

As to whether Strider is a flat character, I think we need to define our terms. If by flat, we mean that Strider is not a complex character, I suppose I can imagine how that might be perceived, but I would disagree with it completely; however, if we mean that Strider is a static character--i.e. someone who does not substantially change within the course of the narrative--then I quite agree: Strider's character is determined by the eight-plus decades before we meet him at the Prancing Pony. The part that we get to see up close is the endgame, where who he is and what he will do has already been decided--we're just seeing how those decisions are going to play out.

Which is why, to engage with a potential plothole already interacted with in the thread, it makes sense to me that Aragorn would have the Shards of Narsil on him. Even if Gandalf has told him nothing of the Ring (though, in fact, he has apparently told him a great deal, since he's already cautioning Frodo on it in the previous chapter) Aragorn can read the same signs of the times that even Frodois hearing about before Gandalf's return in "Shadow of the Past," and can presumably interpret them better than most. He knows war with Mordor is imminent. So while he obviously wasn't carrying around the Shards while he was undercover as Thorongil, it does make sense to me that he'd have them, knowing they were entering the Last Days.



On a different note--it occurs to me that Strider is one of a very select few to have a chapter named after him. Tom Bombadil, Elrond, and Galadriel all get mentioned in a chapter title, though the subject is some of theirs (a house, council, and mirror respectively)--likewise, in the later books: Boromir, Saruman, Sméagol, Shelob, Samwise, and Denethor. Only Treebeard gets a chapter titled specifically identified as about him by name, though Gandalf and Théoden in the following two chapters each get a title that refers to them directly ("The White Rider" and "The King of the Golden Hall")--and if we go by that criteria, the only two-person chapter title is "The Steward and the King," which bookends "Strider." Strider is introduced in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" and he last appears in "Many Partings," but "Strider" is where we learn his identity and "The Steward and the King" is where that identity comes to fulfillment.