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Orald
01-25-2001, 12:39 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Ok, I get that the elven rings were able to preserve and maybe a few other things, but what was so special about the dwarven rings, and the ones that Sauron gave to humans? Were the dwarven rings and the nazgul rings basically the same? I know the elven rings were forged by Celebrimbor alone, but do the elven rings still have similar powers as do the other rings?

And if the ringwraiths and dwarves had similar rings, then why didn't the dwarves become wraiths also? Because they had such strong wills?

</p>

Inziladun
01-25-2001, 04:43 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Of the Rings of Power

It seems the Nine and the Seven were each intended for the races which received them.The Nine were instruments of power
and conquest which conferred invisibility. They also had the ability to lengthen the lives of their mortal bearers indefinitely. Since the desire of immortality was the cause of the Downfall of Nmenor,it's obvious why finding Men to accept the Nine was not difficult.
The Seven,I assume also gave the power of invisibility. They also appear to be aimed at a weak point in the race of
the Dwarves:their inherent greed.These Rings inflamed their desire of wealth,and they used them only to gain it. Something fundamental in their nature prevents them from becoming wraiths though, and their lifespans were not affected by the Seven in any way.
As for the Three,they were made for the purpose of healing and preserving. They did not confer invisibility.

Manw keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p>

Tar Elenion
01-25-2001, 05:58 PM
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Re: Of the Rings of Power

No. ALL the Rings of Power, except the One, were made by the Elves for the Elves. They were not made for Men or Dwarves or Hobbits or Orks or anyone else. Elves made them (with an assist from Annatar) for their own (ultimately selfish) purposes. No one else was intended to use or have them*. Only when Sauron failed in his attempt to control the Elves through the Rings with the One, and was able to capture many of the Rings, and to pervert them, did he pass them out to Men and Dwarves.

The chief power of ALL the Rings was to prevent or retard decay and preserve that which was desired. ALL the Rings enhanced a the wearers natural powers. The Rings had other (primarily unstated) powers such as invisibility (except the Three) as well as making the invisible world visible.

For reference I recommend reading 'Of the Rings of Power' in the Silmarillion, The Council of Elrond chapter of LotR, and Letter 131.


* For the sake of debate I will not address the (purely) Dwarvish legend regarding Durin's Ring.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

Orald
01-25-2001, 06:08 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Re: Of the Rings of Power

You mean how the elves actually gave it to him and not Sauron? For the sake of debate.

I don't remember the dwarven rings giving invisibility to its barer.

</p>

Tar Elenion
01-25-2001, 07:27 PM
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Re: Of the Rings of Power

Durelen:
Yes that is the Dwarvish legend.
The 7 and the 9 all had the power to render wearers invisible (see Letter 131 (although it is _possible_ that Dwarves were unaffected by that power as well, I dont know for sure))

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

enep
01-25-2001, 07:50 PM
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Question:

I have a question: was it possible that the Seven were more powerful than the Nine, i.e. because Dwarves are more hardy, would Sauron have given them more powerful rings?

- enep</p>

Inziladun
01-25-2001, 08:29 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Of the Rings of Power

The Nine and the Seven were made with Sauron's aid. What was ultimately accomplished with them was much different than what was done with the Three.The Nine and the Seven had a corrupting influence on their possessors. The Three,which were made by Celebrimbor alone,did not have an evil effect on their wearers,and truly did &quot;preserve all things unstained&quot;.
The making of the Rings was not in origin the idea of the Elves. Sauron was the guiding influence,and the seeming &quot;good&quot; qualities of the Nine and the Seven were illusory.
These Rings appealed to those who wanted power beyond the measure of their kind. Since Sauron had a hand in their making,they could not have had a truly noble purpose.
Sauron may have had the idea of dominating Men and Dwarves with the Rings,as well as the Elves,when he first came to Eregion. It just strikes me that the Nine gave to Men what they most desired:unending life. Three of the Ringwraiths were Nmenreans,members of a race which attacked Valinor hoping to obtain immortality. Why would the Nine confer unending life if they were intended for Elves?


Manw keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p>

Tar Elenion
01-25-2001, 08:31 PM
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Re: Question:

enep:
Unknown. Some theorize that the 7 were more powerful (since the 1 was the most powerful and then the 3). But JRRT does not say. When he mentions the powers of the Rings it is fairly generic and they are all capable of the same things (while the One and Three have some different abilities and are noted as much more powerful). He does say that while Sauron gave only seven to the Dwarves he gave nine to Men 'for Men proved in this matter readist to his will' (see 'Of the Rings of Power').

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

Orald
01-25-2001, 08:59 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Re: Question:

I would think that Sauron should have just given all of them to men, if his master couldn't get dwarves to join his cause, why did Sauron even try.

Another thing is, that the nine rings given to men did not give them unending life, it was more like the undead, or something along those lines. Let's see one other thing to address, oh yes, the nine rings given to men gave them &quot;unending existence&quot; but the seven given to dwarves had no such effect. Does this have anything to do with the inherent &quot;stubborness&quot; of the dwarves? Or is this because dwarves were more like elves than men when speaking about fea?

</p>

enep
01-25-2001, 09:00 PM
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Ah..

Thanks Tar Elenion - you are right, I should've noticed that paragraph. <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/"> As For a (my) solution to the unending life question, the Rings were no doubt corrupted by Sauron before being 'handed out' so to speak...(please correct me if I am wrong) and did not give everlasting life but rather decayed the men into wraiths, spirits, ghosts, so in a sense they were like living dead - only live because of the power installed in them by the Nine and the will of their master...or so I assume. Probably just one of my conjured fantasies, but nevertheless one explanation. <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

- enep</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 1/25/01 10:06:58 pm

enep
01-25-2001, 09:02 PM
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Ah..

(Sorry, I accidently posted twice - slow connection <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 1/25/01 10:06:06 pm

Tar Elenion
01-25-2001, 10:38 PM
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Re: Question:

Sauron did not know that he would be unable to control the Dwarves through the One. If he could have enslaved the Elves using the One (through the Rings) he probably presumed the Dwarves could be controlled too.

It is at least implied that Sauron did somthing to the Rings he captured before handing them out.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

Meneltarmacil
06-25-2003, 10:20 PM
I am pretty sure the Nine do not make anybody invisible... the Nazgul are always wearing them and they're not invisible...

The Seven aren't mentioned a lot so I don't know much about them. From what one of them did to Thror and Thrain, I would say that they helped the dwarves get a lot of gold and riches, but they also made whoever had them greedy and always wanting more wealth. They probably didn't make their wearers invisible though.

Meneltarmacil
06-25-2003, 10:22 PM
PS Just who were the Nazgul before they got their rings? I know they were supposed to be great kings of Men but I don't see them mentioned anywhere when they were kings. Like what did each one rule? Could somebody tell me?

Finwe
06-27-2003, 10:24 AM
We don't really know anything about the Nazgul before they became the Nazgul. All we know is that they were great kings of men. The Decipher Cards have some descriptions about them, but I wouldn't really trust those. They probably made them up (like they did the names of the Elf army at Helm's Deep!).

In RotK, during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, after the Witchking was slain, his lieutenant, called Khamul, took up the command of the army. Some people think that Khamul was another Ringwraith, but I personally think that he was just another Orc-Lord. Sauron wouldn't need more than one Ringwraith, when the WitchKing was enough to break down the gates of Minas Tirith.

Legolas
06-27-2003, 10:37 AM
In RotK, during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, after the Witchking was slain, his lieutenant, called Khamul, took up the command of the army. Some people think that Khamul was another Ringwraith, but I personally think that he was just another Orc-Lord. Sauron wouldn't need more than one Ringwraith, when the WitchKing was enough to break down the gates of Minas Tirith.

No. "Gothmog" was the Lt. of Minas Morgul and *might* be a Nazgul (though I don't believe so - search for 'Gothmog' to find conversations about that).

Khaml was definitely a wraith - second in command to the Witch-King and the Lt. of Dol Guldur. Read these quotes. The first is Christopher Tolkien in the introduction; the second is from IV 'Hunt for the Ring' where Khaml's wraiths of Dol Guldur meet the Witch-King's wraiths of Minas Morgul.

Unfinished Tales:

But whatever view may be taken of this question, for some, as for myself, there is a value greater than the mere uncovering of curious detail in learning that [...] the Black Rider whom the Hobbits saw in the foggy darkness on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry was Khaml, chief of the Ringwraiths of Dol Guldur

Therefore when Osgiliath was taken and the bridge broken Sauron stayed the assault, and the Nazgl were ordered to begin the search for the Ring. But Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the Wise, and the Nazgl were commanded to act as secretly as they could. Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khaml the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.

CT confirms the passing reference from the introduction later on:

and it reappears in detailed notes on the movement of the Black Riders in the Shire: thus of the Rider (who was in fact Khaml of Dol Guldur, see note 1) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed (The Fellowship of the Ring I 5)

Therefore he [Witch-King] sent some of the Riders into the Shire, with orders to disperse while traversing it; and of these Khaml was to find Hobbiton (see note 1), where "Baggins" lived, according to Saruman's papers.

[note 1] and it may be noted that in a rejected version of the present passage there was only one Nazgl in Dol Guldur (not named as Khaml, but referred to as "the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)"), while one remained with Sauron as his chief messenger. From notes counting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it was Khaml who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry (see p.360). The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, and with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was "his companion from Dol Guldur." Of Khaml it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.

Finwe
06-27-2003, 11:09 AM
I'm sorry. I always get confused between Gothmog and Khamul. Thanks for correcting me!