Them Dwarven folk.

[Boromir88]

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed before...but here it goes. I've always been fasinated by the dwarves, actually maybe even my favorite race. Partially because I like Gimli, and also the story that was told at the Council of Elrond about the Dwarves denying Sauron's offer. So this thread is dedicated to all dwarven discussions.

First I wanted to talk about Dis, I believe the only female dwarf mentioned in Tolkien's works. The dwarves seemed to me like a declining race, and I never read where dwarves married someone from another race. Afterall, that is sort of a scary thought I mean Gimli, marrying, and having children with Galadriel...or Arwen? Anyway, I wanted to know, because I could be missing something but was there another female dwarf mentioned besides Dis? And if anyone for sure knew that dwarves were a declining race?

Another thing I wanted to talk about was Erebor. I've always thought of Erebor as one of the stronger fortresses of Middle-Earth. I mean after the dwarves had went and hid in Erebor, not even Sauron's forces broke through, but of course I don't think Sauron had a 40 000 man assault on Erebor like he did on Minas Tirith. As yes, I'm kicking myself, because I still haven't read the hobbit. But any information on Erebor, or description would be of help to me.

[Encaitare]

Yes, I believe the appendices say that Dis was the only female dwarf who was in any of the Middle-earth tales. I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway. It goes along somewhat similar lines as the Elves -- as the dominion of Men grew the other races began to diminish.

[Lobelia]

Yes, I believe the appendices say that Dis was the only female dwarf who was in any of the Middle-earth tales. I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway.

Quite right, it says so in the Appendices - that there were fewer Dwarf women than men and some of those never wanted to marry, or didn't bother to re-marry if they were widowed - which, I think, tells us something about Dwarf culture and the place of women in it. In many of the other cultures, women would have been pressured to marry or re-marry - largely, I suspect, to keep the land in the family. The Appendices also say that Dwarf women are hard to tell from the Men and dress like them when they go out, which isn't often. Of course, this implies that the women also have beards, something with which Terry Pratchett has had a lot of fun, and I'm pretty sure it actually says so in one of the HOME books, I forget which one. The mind boggles! :D Personally, I have always thought some of Thorin Oakenshield's comrades in THE HOBBIT were female. (g)

I have to agree with you, Boromir88, they are a fascinating folk - brave, tough, likable, with their own flaws like the other races, in their case a love of gold -but then, they're craftsmen and can't help loving beautiful things.

[Boromir88]

Lobelia:
I have to agree with you, Boromir88, they are a fascinating folk - brave, tough, likable, with their own flaws like the other races, in their case a love of gold -but then, they're craftsmen and can't help loving beautiful things.

So true, that's why I believe Gimli wasn't effected by the One Ring as much as say Boromir. Gimli saw the ring as another piece of gold to throw on the pile, now in the dwarvish greed he would have taken the ring, but might not have no use for it, just horde it for more gold.

Encaitare:
I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway. It goes along somewhat similar lines as the Elves -- as the dominion of Men grew the other races began to diminish.

Also, to explain about the dwarf marriage is the dwarves were such a secretive race. They had their own secret language, khuzdul, which we hear Gimli shout out. So it would make sense that the dwarf women would just keep to themself and the dwarves to their own customs. With your statement about the dominion of men grew, other races begin to diminish, very good point. You have the elves fading away, either going into the west, or staying in Middle-earth where they begin to fade. As mentioned the dwarves, and then you come to the Ents, who are declining because of the loss of the Entwives. Even Hobbits as Bombadil points out will pass, and others will inhabit the Shire.

I think another thing fascinating about dwarves is their friendships. PJ makes it seem like all elves hate dwarves. In fact most Elves I believe were atleast respectful to eachother. Elrond and the elves of Rivendell showed their kindness to Gloin, and respected the dwarves. It seemed Noldor elves had this connection with the dwarves, coming from Aule, they shared an understanding, which is for the reason for Galadriel's kindness to Gimli. Where the Sindarin or Silvan elves were more hateful towards dwarves, as we get to see with Thranduil, and then with Haldir. I think what PJ missed was the relationship between Gimli and Legolas was something never seen between and Elf and Dwarf. But yet that doesn't mean dwarves were hated by elves, when in fact it seemed like most elves atleast respected the dwarves.

Then we get to see Gloin's kindness towards Frodo during Elrond's supper. As it says Gloin and Frodo talked the whole time. Gloin had deep respect for Bilbo and of course would like Bilbo's heir.

[Lobelia]

[ I think what PJ missed was the relationship between Gimli and Legolas was something never seen between and Elf and Dwarf. But yet that doesn't mean dwarves were hated by elves, when in fact it seemed like most elves atleast respected the dwarves.

Then we get to see Gloin's kindness towards Frodo during Elrond's supper. As it says Gloin and Frodo talked the whole time. Gloin had deep respect for Bilbo and of course would like Bilbo's heir.[/QUOTE]



There is, of course, that feud that started centuries ago when a certain woodland Elven King didn't pay up for a necklace... :) It gets a brief mention in THE HOBBIT and, of course, in the HOME books. Then there's the mention of "evil woken in the mountains" by what is perceived as Dwarvish greed. In the end, though, I suspect there's a rivalry between craftsmen - both Elves and Dwarves are good with their hands. But you're right that the problem is largely with Sindarin and Silvan Elves.
As for Gloin, if you have a read of THE HOBBIT, it took him a while to respect Bilbo, at whom he sneered at first - only Balin was kind from the start, which is one reason why those of us who have read THE HOBBIT get choked up by that scene in Moria.

[Mahedros the tall]

[QUOTE=Boromir88]First I wanted to talk about Dis, I believe the only female dwarf mentioned in Tolkien's works. [QUOTE]

actually 4 of thorins companions were dwarf female just that since the hobbit is described from bilbos point of wiew he thinks they are male.

[obloquy]

actually 4 of thorins companions were dwarf female just that since the hobbit is described from bilbos point of wiew he thinks they are male.

Quite right. Additionally, there is a message encoded into the text of the Lord of the Rings appendices that clearly states that the Dwarves were actually the Entwives who were transformed by the Great Ring of Transmogrification that was born by Thrain III, also known as Thrain the Androgynous. Gandalf makes brief and cryptic mention of this little-known fact in several places, which I will not reveal and should be obvious to anyone who has paid attention while reading LotR. So all Dwarves are female, and in fact females of a wholly different species than they appear to be. Real Dwarves did exist, but they did not look anything like the Entwife-dwarves of the First, Second, and Third Ages; they were all enslaved by Melkor very early on and forced to work in his dungeons. Bilbo and Frodo never mentioned these facts since they were, as Hobbits, completely ignorant.

[Boromir88]

obloquy :rolleyes:

Mahedros, I remember from a conversation SpM and I had where he said this, and if that's where you happened to see where some dwarves in The Hobbit were females, I think you should know that The Saucepan Man was only joking.

[Lobelia]

I remember when I first read Terry Pratchett's novels and he had female dwarves with beards I thought he was just having fun with the fact that all of Tolkien's Dwarves seem to be male, but imagine my surprise to find a passage somewhere in the HOME books where it was actually stated that female Dwarves were bearded! There is a mention, anyway, that you can't tell the males from the females, who rarely travel and when they do, they look like the males, so people assume they are. Given that all the Dwarves we meet seem to have beards,it's the logical conclusion that the women (including Dis?) DO have beards! :D

I think, anyway, that it was all a matter of Tolkien's Boys' Club attitudes. He just didn't think. The first time he writes about the ancestors of the Dwarves, they're all male. Another (later?) version has them put to sleep with their mates. Durin is the only one who doesn't have a mate, yet somehow he has a line of descendants who are very proud of the fact. Tolkien's fiction is filled with "the fathers of the fathers of ..." whoever. The only time it seems to occur to him that you do need both genders is in the matter of the Ents. Ah, well. I love him anyway.

And for the record, in my moments of whimsy, i have always speculated as to whether any of Thorin's companions might just have been female ... :p

[The Saucepan Man]

... I think you should know that The Saucepan Man was only joking.Whoops! :rolleyes: :D

[Thinlómien]

Then we get to see Gloin's kindness towards Frodo during Elrond's supper. As it says Gloin and Frodo talked the whole time. Gloin had deep respect for Bilbo and of course would like Bilbo's heir. Hmmm... damn my poor memory and my laziness (I'm too lazy to check), but I think that in LotR it is a few times said (not straightly, of course) that hobbits had the best relationships with the dwarves of all races of Middle-Earth. (Except bree-hobbits and bree-humans, of course.)

I have got the impression that dwarf caravans (merchants) pass through Shire and sell things there. That would make them familiar to hobbits at some degree. (In one of the first chapters of LotR it says that dwarves have talked with hobbits; given them news. It leaves the impression that it wasn't the first time hobbits had talks with dwarves.)

edit: And, dwarves had to have some trade with the hobbits, by the way. Otherwise they couldn't have pipeweed.

edit2: Unless they bought it from Bree...

[The Sixth Wizard]

Yes, I believe the appendices say that Dis was the only female dwarf who was in any of the Middle-earth tales. I believe the Dwarves were a declining race, since there were so few Dwarf-women and many Dwarf-men never married anyway. It goes along somewhat similar lines as the Elves -- as the dominion of Men grew the other races began to diminish.

I don't believe they were a declining race, but they didn't increase very rapidly. And dwarf women are probably just completely secretive. I think the Dwarves only declined because of the reagaining of Gondor.
:smokin:

[Selmo]

The dwarves seemed to me like a declining race, and I never read where dwarves married someone from another race. Afterall, that is sort of a scary thought I mean Gimli, marrying, and having children with Galadriel...or Arwen?

Elves and Men could produce offspring together, although this was extremely rare.
This was because they were both created by Eru Iluvatar (God) to the same physical pattern. Dwarves were created independently by Aule, one of the Valar. Aule could not copy Eru's creations exactly so Dwarven DNA was significantly different from that of Men and Elves, too diferent for them to mate succesfully.

Hobbits, as a sub-group of Mankind, could, in theory, inter-breed with Men and Elves. A scary thought, though not as scary as Dwarves and Elves.
.

[The Saucepan Man]

Hobbits, as a sub-group of Mankind, could, in theory, inter-breed with Men and Elves.Actually, it's not so far fetched. The descendants of a liason long ago between a Stoor lad and a Noldorin maid may still be seen in many gardens today ...

:rolleyes:

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Actually, it's not so far fetched. The descendants of a liason long ago between a Stoor lad and a Noldorin maid may still be seen in many gardens today ... Aghhhhhhhhhhhhh! :eek:


Not to mention the sad looks on some elf girls' faces
when the Fellowship left Rivendell (as observed
on the dvd by Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan). :D

Oh, and as to above dwarf/elf disagreements. even though
I believe the petty dwarves were exiled from dwarfdom
their initially being hunted by elves (until they found the
petty dwarves weren't animals) could have fueled the
dwarf/elf enmity.

[Thinlómien]

Oh, and as to above dwarf/elf disagreements. even though
I believe the petty dwarves were exiled from dwarfdom
their initially being hunted by elves (until they found the
petty dwarves weren't animals) could have fueled the
dwarf/elf enmity. I disagree. I don't think the dwarves cared about petty-dwarves so much. Maybe they didn't even notice them being persecuted.

[goldfinger]

I think I remember reading somewhere that when the Dwarves saw what the Elve were doing to the Petty-Dwarves, they took the in and they no longer were exiles. Considering the fact they were Dwarves too, and we all know how proud they were of their race. It makes logical sense.

[Boromir88]

Wow it's amazing, this is the 2nd or 3rd thread I ever did (so it's over 2 years old) and it's gotten more responses now than when I first started it. :p

I imagine the dwarves slaying the great Thingol probably put a big damper on their relationship. But again, it wasn't like all elves hated all dwarves. The Elves of Rivendell and the Noldor Elves seemed to always get along with the dwarves.

[Groin Redbeard]

Wonderful thread Boromir! This is definatly worth reviving.:cool:

[zxcvbn]

Hmmm... damn my poor memory and my laziness (I'm too lazy to check), but I think that in LotR it is a few times said (not straightly, of course) that hobbits had the best relationships with the dwarves of all races of Middle-Earth. (Except bree-hobbits and bree-humans, of course.)

I have got the impression that dwarf caravans (merchants) pass through Shire and sell things there. That would make them familiar to hobbits at some degree. (In one of the first chapters of LotR it says that dwarves have talked with hobbits; given them news. It leaves the impression that it wasn't the first time hobbits had talks with dwarves.)

edit: And, dwarves had to have some trade with the hobbits, by the way. Otherwise they couldn't have pipeweed.

edit2: Unless they bought it from Bree...

Sadly, you are mistaken, Thinlómien. The Shire-hobbits did not get along well with ANY strangers. Sure, they traded with outsiders, but they considered folk like the Dwarves as queer and outlandish. And the Dwarves did not think very highly of them either.

...And look at the outlandish folk that visit him: dwarves coming at night,...From 'The Shadow of the Past'

"we actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful. Indeed I think it was annoyance with his haughty disregard of the Hobbits that first put into my head the idea of entangling him with them. As far as he was concerned they were just food-growers who happened to work the fields on either side of the Dwarves' ancestral road to the Mountains."
From 'The Quest of Erebor'

The people that had the best relationship with the Dwarves were obviously the Men of Dale.

Nowhere are there any men so friendly to us as the Men of Dale.
From 'Many Meetings'

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, in the aborted 1960 rewrite of The Hobbit, Tolkien tells us that Dwarves often did transient or contract- work in the Shire, especially in roadbuilding and the like; and that there was an inn on the East Road which specially catered to Dwarves.*

There is also Gandalf's comment in the Quest of Erebor to the effect of "you may think the Shire-folk simple, because they are generous and do not haggle....," which implies that commerce went on between them.

(Query: who made Bilbo's clock?)

EDIT: * Did it serve rat with ketchup?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

William, I had the same thought some time ago and built the Dwarven origins of the Hobbits' clocks into a (canonical Hobbit) fan fiction I began writing. Alas for its completion, it remains on the back burner in hopes of being continued sometime...

[Thinlómien]

Zxcvbn, that's a very old post of mine so I'm not sure, but I think I meant that Hobits have the best relations to Dwarves (= they had better relations to dwarves than humans - except Breelanders - or to Elves - even though that can be argued as they hardly had any dealings with each other). I agree that from the Dwarves' perspective, they had best relations with the Dalemen. This sounds horribly confusing - do I make sense at all?

[Eönwë]

Hobbits are related to the Pukel-men or Druedain, so many thought them very simple and very backwards in technology and knowledge (which they were, because they had less time to imrove than any of the more advanced races. Only since the third age, I think.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hobbits are related to the Pukel-men or Druedain, so many thought them very simple and very backwards in technology and knowledge (which they were, because they had less time to imrove than any of the more advanced races. Only since the third age, I think.)

Ee-ee! Wrong! No way, Mr. Eönwë, no way!

My father was at pains to emphasize the radical difference between the Drúedain and the Hobbits. They were of quite different physical shape and appearance. (...) In some ways they resembled rather the Dwarves: in build and stature and endurance; in their skill in carving stone; in the grim side of their character; and in their strange powers. But the "magic" skills with which the Dwarves were credited were quite different; and the Dwarves were far grimmer, and also long-lived, whereas the Drúedain were short-lived compared with other kinds of Men.

You can read all the paragraph, I am not going to quote it in full here.

[Groin Redbeard]

I was thinking about making a thread about this, but I thought it better to keep this thread revived.

What do we know about Dwarves wielding bows?

I know Thorin wielded a bow in the Hobbit, when the Dales people came to get their fair share of the treasure. Does anybody know any other references regarding darf bows?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I know Thorin wielded a bow in the Hobbit, when the Dales people came to get their fair share of the treasure. Does anybody know any other references regarding darf bows?

Of course also when the Dwarves were hunting in the Mirkwood with the bows Beorn gave them. The bows are not mentioned in the battle of Azanulbizar and I would think that in battles with the goblins underground or with heavy-armoured ones even in open field the Dwarves would not use the bows that often, as it surely won't be much effective. There is no mention of shooting from the Dwarves' side in the Book of Mazarbul, and as far as I know, there are not arrows mentioned even in the description of the room of Mazarbul (so no funny arrows sticking out of a skeleton like in the movie): all the weapons mentioned are axes and swords (both dwarven and orcish).

However, I think something may be in the Silmarillion. Definitely the Petty-Dwarves had their own history with bows, but aside from that, maybe the other Dwarves used them somewhere in the battles? I'd have to look.

[Thinlómien]

What do we know about Dwarves wielding bows?I'm probably taking this quite away from the original question, but: what did the Dwarves eat? Where did they get their food? It would make sense to me that they got most of their food from trade with humans (like the Dwarves of Erebor probably traded with the Dalemen for wheat and other agriculture products). But seeing that there are animals in the mountains, too, I could imagine Dwarves of the Blue Mountains hunting deer or other deer-like animals living in the mountains. That would make sense. And if they hunted deer, they most probably did it with bows. So I would say that at least some dwarves were skilled in archery, regardless of whether it was a part of their warrior training or not.

[zxcvbn]

I'm probably taking this quite away from the original question, but: what did the Dwarves eat? Where did they get their food? It would make sense to me that they got most of their food from trade with humans (like the Dwarves of Erebor probably traded with the Dalemen for wheat and other agriculture products). But seeing that there are animals in the mountains, too, I could imagine Dwarves of the Blue Mountains hunting deer or other deer-like animals living in the mountains. That would make sense. And if they hunted deer, they most probably did it with bows. So I would say that at least some dwarves were skilled in archery, regardless of whether it was a part of their warrior training or not.

Well, it appears that the Dwarves of Thorin's company had relatively poor eyesight, even the youngsters Fili and Kili. Bilbo could see better than any of them. So I imagine they weren't that skilled with archery(compared with other races). As for Dwarves from the Blue Mountains, I believe they purchased food from the Elves of Lindon or from the Shire(Thorin only regarded Hobbits as 'food growers').

[Thinlómien]

Well, it appears that the Dwarves of Thorin's company had relatively poor eyesight, even the youngsters Fili and Kili. Bilbo could see better than any of them. So I imagine they weren't that skilled with archery(compared with other races).Funny. I always read it the way that Bilbo had good eyesight, not that the Dwarves had bad eyesight.
As for Dwarves from the Blue Mountains, I believe they purchased food from the Elves of Lindon or from the Shire(Thorin only regarded Hobbits as 'food growers').Agreed, but it would make sense that they would "produce" even a small amount if it themselves by hunting, as they were certainly capable of it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Funny. I always read it the way that Bilbo had good eyesight, not that the Dwarves had bad eyesight.
Indeed. [/END OF OFF-TOPIC]


Agreed, but it would make sense that they would "produce" even a small amount if it themselves by hunting, as they were certainly capable of it.
Well, once again, with the lack of examples among "normal" Dwarves, I thought about Mim and the Petty-Dwarves. He could shoot, that much seems clear from the story, but mainly we hear about him collecting some roots. One could presume the Dwarves also collected these things (though probably not basing their nutrition only on that), or even cultivated some fungi and other strange things in the underground, what do you say on that? Nevertheless, I believe they must have hunted at least something - and not just underground, that means, to return to the original topic, that they probably used bows for hunt (as it is very effective).

[Aganzir]

As for Dwarves from the Blue Mountains, I believe they purchased food from the Elves of Lindon or from the Shire(Thorin only regarded Hobbits as 'food growers').
I think the idea that they purchased all (or even the major deal of) their food is quite impossible. Roughly generalised, to be selfsupporting is the ideal of every great kingdom, and I can see it apply to dwarves much better than any humans or elves.

I wouldn't be surprised if dwarves had some mushroom farms. Easy to grow even inside a mountain and tasty. And surely there are some underground lakes that provide them with fish as well.

However, given the dwarves' physique (really, you can't get those muscles just through genes), I think they must eat some meat as well. Granted, there's protein also in fish, but a fish-mushroom diet would be quite boring. Personally I can see dwarves hunting (with bows, slings or something similar). And what about cattle herds? They can graze on the mountains in the summer and don't need that many people to watch over them anyway. Dried or salted meat doesn't go bad very quickly, and if need be more animals can be slaughtered during the winter.

I'm not sure if they could have any animals inside the mountain, though. Could they stand the lack of daylight (or could the dwarves stand the smell)?
Well, maybe goats, hens or something?
Or now that I think it, even cows. Probably they would enjoy their lives better than animals in factory farms these days, anyway.

edit: crossed with uncle Leggie

[zxcvbn]

I think the idea that they purchased all (or even the major deal of) their food is quite impossible. Roughly generalised, to be selfsupporting is the ideal of every great kingdom, and I can see it apply to dwarves much better than any humans or elves.

Actually they DID purchase all their food supplies. Atleast whenever there were communities of Elves or Men nearby.

Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves.

And whenever Dwarves were isolated from Elves and Men, they hunted animals and gathered wild roots instead of farming or herding. Example: the Petty Dwarves.

Maybe they were just poor at farming and herding? They certainly didn't seem to have much harmony with nature.

They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life.

[Alfirin]

Maybe Terry Prachett is right and dwarves really do have a fondness for eating rat. :D

[Thinlómien]

Actually they DID purchase all their food supplies. Atleast whenever there were communities of Elves or Men nearby.

Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves.I feel like arguing. Because even though the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain did - just as the quote says - get their food from their neighbours, that probably isn't how it goes with Dwarves of other places. Not all of them had such exceptionally warm relationships with their neighbours.

And as to the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains - Shire is very far away to be the main source of food and I really can't see there being much of friendly communication between the Elves and the Dwarves of the Lindon area. It makes sense they had some communication and trade, but it'd be very odd if the Dwarves got most of their food from the Elves - as the two races didn't like each other very much in late times.

[zxcvbn]

I feel like arguing.
:pThat's what makes discussions fun. it'd be a boring world if everybody agreed on everything.

Because even though the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain did - just as the quote says - get their food from their neighbours, that probably isn't how it goes with Dwarves of other places. Not all of them had such exceptionally warm relationships with their neighbours.

Read the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men'. Whenever the two races lived close to each other Men had the role of providing food and perishables and Dwarves provided tools, weapons etc.

And as to the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains - Shire is very far away to be the main source of food and I really can't see there being much of friendly communication between the Elves and the Dwarves of the Lindon area. It makes sense they had some communication and trade, but it'd be very odd if the Dwarves got most of their food from the Elves - as the two races didn't like each other very much in late times.

The Dwarves may not be very friendly with the Elves but they weren't enemies either. More like neutral. Also, in the Silmarillion it says that though relations between the Dwarves and Elves remained cool, there was a lot of trade between them and both sides profited greatly.

And as for the Shire being too far way for trade, how do you think the Dwarves knew of pipe weed?

[Thinlómien]

:pThat's what makes discussions fun. it'd be a boring world if everybody agreed on everything. Agreed. ;)


Read the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men'.I have read it, but I don't definitely know it by heart.

Whenever the two races lived close to each other Men had the role of providing food and perishables and Dwarves provided tools, weapons etc.But the Dwarves of the Iron Hills or the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, they didn't have human neighbours - or did they? No big organised settlements, at least.

The Dwarves may not be very friendly with the Elves but they weren't enemies either. More like neutral. Also, in the Silmarillion it says that though relations between the Dwarves and Elves remained cool, there was a lot of trade between them and both sides profited greatly.I'm not questioning the fact, but I'd like to look at it myself. Where is that said? :)

And as for the Shire being too far way for trade, how do you think the Dwarves knew of pipe weed?I did not mean to say it was too far way for trade, rather that it was too far away for significant regular food supply trade. Besides, if there would have been a considerable amount of Dwarven money and/or goods coming to the Shire this way, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

[Aganzir]

Actually they DID purchase all their food supplies. Atleast whenever there were communities of Elves or Men nearby.
That's not logical. The dwarves were intelligent enough to realise what happens if a war breaks out or there's some other catastrophe which stops trade. And even if Gimli could set Galadriel's hairs in imperishable crystal, I doubt the dwarves were able to preserve food in the same way. ;)
No, they had to be able to produce food also on their own.

And whenever Dwarves were isolated from Elves and Men, they hunted animals and gathered wild roots instead of farming or herding. Example: the Petty Dwarves.
Maybe small families and communities did, but that's not enough to feed a considerable sized society.

Maybe they were just poor at farming and herding? They certainly didn't seem to have much harmony with nature.
So maybe they were the ones who developed fertilizers and industrial agriculture? To Tolkien's view of things that would probably mean about the same as "not much harmony with nature."

Thus there grew up in those regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of Dwarves and Men (including Hobbits): Men became the chief providers of food, as herdsmen, shepherds, and landtillers, which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers &tc.
I believe this is what you meant. However, I fail to see it says trade with Men was the only source of food for dwarves. Rather, I think it profited Men most to sell food- and that most of the food the dwarves bought came from Men.

Maybe Terry Prachett is right and dwarves really do have a fondness for eating rat.
:(

And as for the Shire being too far way for trade, how do you think the Dwarves knew of pipe weed?
Smoking of pipe-weed spread among Dwarves from Bree, says the Prologue. I don't remember what else has been said about pipe-weed, but it's hard to believe it grows only near the Shire, so trade isn't necessarily needed for the dwarves to get it.

**

And now that I think it, mushroom farming sounds even more and more probable. A union between Aulë and Yavanna- things that grow underground and are eaten by Aulë's folk. How romantic. :)

[zxcvbn]

But the Dwarves of the Iron Hills or the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, they didn't have human neighbours - or did they? No big organised settlements, at least.
How do you know? Tolkien never wrote anything about the Dwarf-mansions of the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills other than the fact that they existed. It wouldn't be implausible to assume that there were atleast some villages of Northmen near the Iron Hills. And as for the Blue Mtns, they were living right next to the Noldor and Sindar in Lindon.


I'm not questioning the fact, but I'd like to look at it myself. Where is that said?


Here.

Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; Of the Sindar

And here.


And thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves, who after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased their traffic into Beleriand. But though either people loved skill and were eager to learn, no great love was there between them; for the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, and Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his people followed their lord. Nevertheless since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit; Of the Return of the Noldor



I did not mean to say it was too far way for trade, rather that it was too far away for significant regular food supply trade.
Why not? There was a great deal of traffic passing through the old Dwarf-roads, which happened to pass through the Shire.

There he laboured long, and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard,...The Appendices

Besides, if there would have been a considerable amount of Dwarven money and/or goods coming to the Shire this way, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

The Dwarves did frequently pass through places like the Shire and Bree-land. And as some poster on this same thread said before they occasionally lent their expertise in construction and road-building.

That stage, however, belonged to the early days of the Shire,
and hobbit-building had long since been altered, improved by devices, learned from Dwarves, or discovered by themselves.

[Thinlómien]

How do you know? Tolkien never wrote anything about the Dwarf-mansions of the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills other than the fact that they existed. It wouldn't be implausible to assume that there were atleast some villages of Northmen near the Iron Hills. No, it wouldn't be implausible, I agree, but I think you're misunderstanding me. I said "no big settlemetns, at least". That does not discount small villages.

And as for the Blue Mtns, they were living right next to the Noldor and Sindar in Lindon.Yes - and the HoME quote only referred to Dwarves and Humans.

As to the qoutes you provided, they are indeed very familiar to me, but I think they - at least the latter one - only refer to the First Age. So they're useless when arguing about the Third Age (which we're discussing, right? :)).

Why not? There was a great deal of traffic passing through the old Dwarf-roads, which happened to pass through the Shire.I know. But it takes time to go from the Shire to the Blue Mountains, and food doesn't stay good for a long time (assuming there were no preservatives in M-E :rolleyes: ). Of course the Dwarves could just buy flour and dried meat & fruits and other goods that last a bit longer and eat only that, but I can't see them going on such an ascetic diet.

[zxcvbn]

Smoking of pipe-weed spread among Dwarves from Bree, says the Prologue. I don't remember what else has been said about pipe-weed, but it's hard to believe it grows only near the Shire, so trade isn't necessarily needed for the dwarves to get it.

Bree is even farther from the Blue Mountains than the Shire. And it's unlikely that the Dwarves grew it themselves, as it needed open spaces and lots of sunlight. And the Elves didn't smoke, so they wouldn't grow it either. So trade it is.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Lommy brings up a good point - fresh food doesn't keep long, so if Dwarves bought it from others, the producers would need to live fairly close to them. After all, there were no refrigerators nor trucks with freezer compartments in Middle-earth!

Pipeweed is a different matter - it could be kept for a considerable time and was transported in barrels. The fact that Dwarves had pipeweed would indicate that they did come to or near the Shire occasionally, but not necessarily frequently.

[Thinlómien]

Pipeweed is a different matter - it could be kept for a considerable time and was transported in barrels. The fact that Dwarves had pipeweed would indicate that they did come to or near the Shire occasionally, but not necessarily frequently.They did - one should not forget the fact that curious Hobbits got most of their news of the big world from Dwarves.

[zxcvbn]

I know. But it takes time to go from the Shire to the Blue Mountains, and food doesn't stay good for a long time (assuming there were no preservatives in M-E :rolleyes: ). Of course the Dwarves could just buy flour and dried meat & fruits and other goods that last a bit longer and eat only that, but I can't see them going on such an ascetic diet.
Okay...good point there.

Exactly how long would it take to transport goods from the Shire to the Blue Mtns by horse cart? Let's say a week. Grains, cereals and nuts can be stored for several months, meat can be preserved for weeks by salting and smoking(and still taste good), and fruits and vegetables can be pickled, so it's still possible. And if the Dwarves wanted fresh fruits and veggies they could buy it from the Elves, who are better at growing them than any other race.

[Aganzir]

I don't think (even food) trade with hobbits is a completely impossible thought. It just doesn't make sense that the dwarves had no way to get food without trading, which I think is what you zxcvbn are saying (or at least coming up with points that back it up).

I bet it takes more people & resources to travel quite a distance just to buy food than it takes to farming, keeping of cattle, hunting or whatever. And dwarven products would sell even without barter.

How many dwarves live in the Blue Mountains anyway? Even though dwarves were a dwindling race at the end of the Third Age, I dare to say there were still more than could be feeded with traded food only.

And how much food does a dwarf consume per day? How much does a dwarf work per day? Buying all their food would soon have made their work unprofitable.

[zxcvbn]

I don't think (even food) trade with hobbits is a completely impossible thought. It just doesn't make sense that the dwarves had no way to get food without trading, which I think is what you zxcvbn are saying (or at least coming up with points that back it up).

What I'm saying is that IMHO the Dwarves were not food producers. I suppose they hunted, gathered wild roots, caught fish and maybe cultivated mushrooms inside their mounntain halls, but I don't think they did any farming or herding if they could help it, and usually obtaiined most(not all, but most) of their food through trade.

I bet it takes more people & resources to travel quite a distance just to buy food than it takes to farming, keeping of cattle, hunting or whatever. And dwarven products would sell even without barter.

How many dwarves live in the Blue Mountains anyway? Even though dwarves were a dwindling race at the end of the Third Age, I dare to say there were still more than could be feeded with traded food only.

And how much food does a dwarf consume per day? How much does a dwarf work per day? Buying all their food would soon have made their work unprofitable.

I always thought that it was the food suppliers who were disadvantaged. Dwarven products(tools, weapons, jewellry, road-building, stone-work etc.) tend to be rather expensive. In comparision food is quite cheap. Notice that the Dwarves of Erebor were the ones who profited most from their trade with Men. None of the Northmen were anywhere near as wealthy as the Dwarves. Bard, who recieved only one-fourteenth of the treasure of Thrain, was said to still have "wealth exceeding that of many mortal(meaning human) kings".

Heh. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

[Aganzir]

but I don't think they did any farming or herding if they could help it, and usually obtaiined most(not all, but most) of their food through trade.
If they could help it, yes- but I think they rather did farming and herding than were completely dependant on outsiders.

I always thought that it was the food suppliers who were disadvantaged. Dwarven products(tools, weapons, jewellry, road-building, stone-work etc.) tend to be rather expensive. In comparision food is quite cheap.

I agree, but only in case dwarves produced some food also on their own. It requires quite much food to keep the whole society content; and if they bought most of it, they would have had to buy it from many farmers and pay each enough. I know the dwarves were good tradesmen, but we must remember all of those who ate didn't contribute to the making of trading goods.

Heh. I'm really enjoying this discussion.
I enjoy every discussion that concerns dwarves. ;)

[Groin Redbeard]

If they could help it, yes- but I think they rather did farming and herding than were completely dependant on outsiders.

Good point. Is is possible that they could bring livestock into their mountain halls, and simply bring the supplies to feeding the animals inside?

I like zxcvbn's idea about the mushrooms.;)

I enjoy every discussion that concerns dwarves. ;)


Ahhh... a man after my own heart!

[Aganzir]

Good point. Is is possible that they could bring livestock into their mountain halls, and simply bring the supplies to feeding the animals inside?
I think that's quite possible (and it brings in another question: ventilation systems). The most logical scenario is that the animals spent summers outside, guarded by a few herdsmen. Most of them were butchered in the autumn and salted or smoked, others spent the winter inside the mountain. Calves were born in the early spring.
It requires so much fodder that it wouldn't be profitable to keep them inside all year.

[zxcvbn]

The reason I don't think Dwarves were given to farming is because their halls were not well-aired, and were mostly cut off from sunlight. Plants need both fresh air and abundant sunlight to grow, and unless the Dwarves had UV lamps like those used in modern greenhouses it would not be possible to obtain a good crop underground. Plus I don't think the rocky, gravelly soil down there would be very fertile.

The only exception is mushrooms and other fungi, which grow well under such conditions inside dark caves.

[Aganzir]

Ah, but I didn't think either that they were growing plants inside a mountain. Rather that they had some fields on the slopes and in the vales.

[Groin Redbeard]

Plus even if they did have crop fields I'm sure we will never find out. Dwarves love to keep things a secret.;)

[alatar]

I too have been wondering where those Dwarves got all of their food. Think of the fair city of the Dwarrowdelf - in its hay day, more than a few busy dwarves lived there. Did they eat much of what Hollin produced? Then what of the elves? How many acres were given over in these lands to food production/procurement, and how many were required to keep a dwarf on its feet all day?

...

So why were prehistoric bugs (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070806112323.htm) so big (imagine a bug with a wing span of over two feet/70 cm!)? It's speculated that, with an atmospheric oxygen concentration up to 35 percent, bugs could be bigger back then. Did you know that bugs breathe through tiny holes and tubes and sacs that passively or actively get the air inside the bug? This ventilation mechanism limits the size of the bug - too big, and oxygen can't get to those cells deep inside the bug, those cells die and then...We, in case you haven't noticed, use our lungs and heart to circulate the oxygen around - and to rid ourselves of carbon dioxide, the same thing those bugs have to do.

What does this have to do with dwarves?

I've been wondering just how far away from an air source they can tunnel before they no longer can get air. Sure, Gandalf and company note air holes in Moria when they are camped outside the Chamber of Mazarbul, but what of the Mines? As with the Romans (http://earthsci.org/mineral/mindep/ancient_mine/deep-vein_mining.htm), surely the dwarves encountered the ventilation and heat issues that plague miners even today. Toxic gases can be released when mining, water has to be diverted to somewhere, and when they lit fires in the upper chambers, you end up with chimneys sucking out the air from below.

Deep they delved them.

So, that said, did the dwarves, seemingly with scant food resources and possibly low oxygen concentrations, have the ability to 'live on less?'

[Groin Redbeard]

I was thinking about starting a thread about this, but I think this is as good a place as any to discuss it.:cool:

What power did the dwarven rings posses? Just like Narya was called the Ring of Fire and Nenya was called the Ring of Water and the Ring of Adamant. I know that all the rings of power had the strength to govern each race, but is that all that they could do?

Yay, 300th post!:D

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What power did the dwarven rings posses? Just like Narya was called the Ring of Fire and Nenya was called the Ring of Water and the Ring of Adamant. I know that all the rings of power had the strength to govern each race, but is that all that they could do?

Yay, 300th post!:D

Congratulations :)

Concerning the Rings: I am not sure if there is much said anywhere, but one thing I can remember for sure is that in the Appendices to LotR, there is said about the Ring of Durin's tribe that "it needed gold to breed gold", therefore, it probably was capable of - somehow - increase the wealth of the owner. I don't imagine it the way that i.e. the Ring would "generate" a pile of gold every morning (though even this is not totally impossible - in the Norse mythology, Odin's ring did similar thing; and some inspiration here could be imaginable); but I think rather it helped the person, somehow gave him luck in trade, making profits, finding deposits of gold etc. You may look there what's the exact quote; it is in the Appendix A III in the part about Thorin in exile in the Blue Mountains. I can't look it up, I'm leaving in a few minutes for an RPG-weekend ;)

[Groin Redbeard]

You may look there what's the exact quote; it is in the Appendix A III in the part about Thorin in exile in the Blue Mountains. I can't look it up, I'm leaving in a few minutes for an RPG-weekend ;)

Thanks Legate, you've been a big help as usual!:)

[alatar]

Thanks Legate, you've been a big help as usual!:)
Maybe this self-promotion here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13874&) would be helpful as well.

[Kuruharan]

I think the idea that they purchased all (or even the major deal of) their food is quite impossible. Roughly generalised, to be selfsupporting is the ideal of every great kingdom, and I can see it apply to dwarves much better than any humans or elves.
-Aganzir

I guess it all depends on how you define their “kingdom.” When the dwarves were strong they seemed to have a tendency to regard the other peoples living near them as being their subjects to some extent and from some of the descriptions its not unreasonable to assume that these other peoples might not have disagreed with that assessment. So the dwarves may not have seen it as being dependent on outsiders to get their food but were rather relying on resources they regarded as their own…at least at times when they were strong.

Maybe they were just poor at farming and herding?

Yeah, neither were particular strong points.

[zxcvbn]

I guess it all depends on how you define their “kingdom.” When the dwarves were strong they seemed to have a tendency to regard the other peoples living near them as being their subjects to some extent and from some of the descriptions its not unreasonable to assume that these other peoples might not have disagreed with that assessment. So the dwarves may not have seen it as being dependent on outsiders to get their food but were rather relying on resources they regarded as their own…at least at times when they were strong.


A very good point, Kuruharan. Re-reading the books, I find that whenever there were 'lesser' Men living near Dwarves, they held the Dwarves in great reverence(something to this effect was stated in Of Dwarves and Men) and the Dwarven kings also seemed to regard the Men as their own subjects/vassals(to some extent). For example, Thorin and Co had more authority among the Lake-men than their own Master, and it pleased them whenever they heard the Lake-men singing their praises or treating them like Lords.

As such, it wouldn't seem wrong to the Dwarves(considering their preference for crafts rather than food-growing) to buy all their food from the Men, especially if the Men were literally living right outside their Gates(Dale).

[Kuruharan]

For a little more information on this system and an explaination of how it could go horribly wrong look here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13044).

[MaultheStoor]

There are no Dwarf women in Lord of the Rings Online. Hmmm...if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...:eek:

[Eönwë]

if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...:eek:

Terry Pratchett definitely had fun with this...

[Aganzir]

There are no Dwarf women in Lord of the Rings Online. Hmmm...if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...:eek:
As a matter of fact, all dwarves are bisexual. It doesn't matter whether a dwarf lives her/his life with a man or a woman, because dwarf children sprout from holes in the ground anyway.

Seriously, though, at least dwarves themselves should be able to distinguish males from females even if the other races couldn't do that.

[Groin Redbeard]

As a matter of fact, all dwarves are bisexual. It doesn't matter whether a dwarf lives her/his life with a man or a woman, because dwarf children sprout from holes in the ground anyway.

Seriously, though, at least dwarves themselves should be able to distinguish males from females even if the other races couldn't do that.

I should certainly hope so!:D