Did Bill Ferny die?

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

In the Scourging of the Shire Ferny is working for Sharkey, but when the hobbits come along he runs off (after getting kicked by Bill the pony), and I believe Tolkien writes something to the effect of "he was never heard of again", so what do you think happened to him, was Bills kick fatal or did he go back to Bree?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'd be surprised if he ran off and then died from the kick. My guess is that he went on to live an altogether miserable life, hiding in the woods and whatnot.

[Mithalwen]

But don't forget that Bill the Pony made it back to Bree despite Snakes and Wolves (though why he headed back to Bree not Rivendell can only be surmised - may be he was out for revenge). Goodness know what skills he learned on that remarkable journey. My theory is that he made a detour to the mystic east and learnt martial arts from a great master (cf the Matrix cow) and where his hooves were shod with metal from a renowned sword (The Green Dragon Destiny). Thus one blow from a hoof thus shod and wieded with such lethal skill could indeed prove fatal.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

There is another theory which says that Ferny accepted a highly-paid accounting job in Minas Tirith. I guess he had to shave and clean up sooner or later.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I'm with Eomer on this one. He obviously died eventually. I don't think he was immortal. He probably became wretched and Gollum esque. Though perhaps not SO extreme, but you know what I mean.

And Bill being thought by some super intelligent cow? Interesting theory Mithalwen, though I doubt Tolkien would write such and event down, then his work would lose a lot of credibility. :confused:

[Mithalwen]

Nah that was his twin brother Bob. It is an easy mistake to make.. :p Bill did kill Bill. Bob was the more studious brother who preferred to spend his evenings drinking cocoa and revising for his ACA (Arnor Chartered Accountants) exams.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Looks to me like this thread is a good candidate for the Mirth forum - I'm moving it there. Have fun!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You are on the ball as ever Estelyn! :D

Well, Mithalwen, if you are right about this so called 'twin brother' then I guess we should track back to all the mentions of Ferny in the book and look for bits which just don't feel right....

Once when drunk, Aragorn proclaimed that Bill actually had a twin sister as well. He claimed that she had 'come on to him' big-time in Bree. Merry and Sam in attendance were not sure what to make of this claim.

[Mithalwen]

And Bill being thought by some super intelligent cow? Interesting theory Mithalwen, though I doubt Tolkien would write such and event down, then his work would lose a lot of credibility. :confused:

Sorry Hookbill -Of course he wouldn't want anything so implausible in his work to stop people suspending their disbelief about those talking eagles or walking trees or a poetry spouting, animated garden gnome ..... :p

[Mithalwen]

You are on the ball as ever Estelyn! :D

Well, Mithalwen, if you are right about this so called 'twin brother' then I guess we should track back to all the mentions of Ferny in the book and look for bits which just don't feel right....

Once when drunk, Aragorn proclaimed that Bill actually had a twin sister as well. He claimed that she had 'come on to him' big-time in Bree. Merry and Sam in attendance were not sure what to make of this claim.

Ah here you touch on the deeper, darker secrets of the Ferny clan. As I can avow, from my unavoidable work-related contact with accountants of our own culture - many of them affect extremes of behaviour in order to counter-balance the extreme dullness of their professional lives..... If by chance this twin "sister" was named Roberta - or something rather more exotic than is common among breelanders - Felicia, Lola or similar ... well we may have our answer. :cool:

[Lalwendë]

Bill Ferny joined Aragorn's ever-growing army of civil servants in the efforts to achieve devolution for The Shire. Once there he rapidly ascended the ranks to the lofty heights of senior executive officer and began to spout mystical management babble while his underling halflings stealthily played buzzword bingo in his bi-weekly progress meetings, stole biros from the stationery cupboard to make up their wages and took every opportunity they could to sneak off to the smoking smial to partake of pipeweed and a good old bitching session.

Seriously, didn't he become an outlaw? Oh, same thing...

[The Saucepan Man]

If by chance this twin "sister" was named Roberta - or something rather more exotic than is common among breelanders - Felicia, Lola or similar ... well we may have our answer.

It was Lola, as the Ballad of the innocent Hobbit tells:

I met her in an inn owned by Butterbur
Where they drink beer in pints
And it taste just like
Pûkel-Cola
C-O-L-A Cola

She sneaked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her her name
And with a squint-eyed glance
She said Lola
L-O-L-A Lola
L-O-L-A Lola
----

Now I'm not the Shire's most fleet-footed lad
But when her apple flew
It made my eye turn blue
Oh my Lola
L-O-L-A Lola

I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she look like a woman
With a swarthy tan
Oh my Lola
L-O-L-A Lola
L-O-L-A Lola
----

Now I'd left Stock just a week before
And I'd never ever seen the big folk before
But Lola winked at her crooked cronies
And said little boy I'm gonna sell you a pony
----

Well I'm not the Shire's most abstinent guy
But when I looked at her pies
Well I almost fell
For my Lola
L-O-L-A Lola
L-O-L-A Lola

Repeat to fade.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, I had the same idea as you Saucepan. However, I am glad you posted first because that was far funnier than anything I could have invented! :D

[Mithalwen]

You are on the ball as ever Estelyn! :D

Well, Mithalwen,
Once when drunk, Aragorn proclaimed that Bill actually had a twin sister as well. He claimed that she had 'come on to him' big-time in Bree. Merry and Sam in attendance were not sure what to make of this claim.

It may well be true that Bill Ferny's "sister" was of easier virtue than, for example, an elf princess who having kept herself tidy for the best part of 3 millenia could easily hang ona few more decades; however Rangers were not generally at their most alluring during their stays at " the Pony " (the locals did tend to regard them as vagabonds). It is reasonable to assume that a frustrated man might interpret the behaviour of any (seeming) female who didn't actually knock his lights out as "coming on to him big time". Are we to assume "he made his excuses and left"? Or have we discovered a reason for Bil Ferny's taunting of Strider as he left Bree with the hobbits?


Saucepan Man - I thank you for this supporting evidence for the double life of "Bob" Ferny. However I am now in doubt as to the true gender of Bill's sibling. UK based scholars will be no doubt familiar with the Blackadder Chronicles which give precedents of the popularity of "Bob" as a name for women who disguised themselves as men.

Lalwende: Personally I am convinced that Bill Ferny met his fate at the hooves of Bill the Pony as outlined above . I think the Bill Ferny you speak of is Bill Junior who combined his father scheming with the financial aptitude of his "uncle". Whether he shared his inclinations in other areas remains to be seen.

[Lalwendë]

Lalwende: Personally I am convinced that Bill Ferny met his fate at the hooves of Bill the Pony as outlined above . I think the Bill Ferny you speak of is Bill Junior who combined his father scheming with the financial aptitude of his "uncle". Whether he shared his inclinations in other areas remains to be seen.

:D

If Bill Jnr did indeed join up for a life of Middle Earth civil servitude then it is entirely possible that beneath his sober pin-striped cloak there lurked something more um...exotic.

I think old Bill and Aragorn had a 'history' of altercations in the kebab shop queue after chucking out time at the Prancing Pony, and the insults thrown as the travellers left Bree was just one incident in a long line of many.

[Lachwen]

Mithalwen: Of course, the Blackadder Chronicles also show that it was not uncommon to keep a dwarf in a cage - something that would have been much more difficult to do with Endorian dwarves. :p

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It is somewhat naive to just assume that Bill died at the hands of his former steed. Some 40 years after Bill's 'death', authorities uncovered several huge insurance scams, most centred around the Bree area. The chief suspect was Bill Ferny, and several claimed that they had cast-iron evidence of his guilt, were it not for one factor; Bill was dead.

It is my estimation that Bill did not actually have a twin brother, but rather that he had been living a daring double life all this time. The wily accountant was able to 'kill off' the vagabond and thus sleep every night on a pile of money, surrounded by many beautiful ladies.

Lying, cheating and stealing, kids; it's the way to the top.

[Mithalwen]

The waters are muddying and I think more study is required but I would say that the insurance scams bear the hallmarks of Bill Junior. Also it would be naive to underestimate the power of Bill -he did cope with the Watcher in the Water and a pack of Wargs - maybe as an expert in this field Eomer could provide information as to the survival chances of an aging pony in that situation?

Lalwende ... thank you for this insight into the bad blood between Ferny and Aragorn. I have heard that Matt Heathertoes's demise during the Troubles at Bree were less due to the outsiders but rather on some of the customers of his kebab stand capitalising on a rare opportunity.

[Mithalwen]

Mithalwen: Of course, the Blackadder Chronicles also show that it was not uncommon to keep a dwarf in a cage - something that would have been much more difficult to do with Endorian dwarves. :p

THis is very true. They do not respond well to captivity and it would be an act of extreme folly to attempt to keep one as a domestic pet. Apart from the ethical issues it is almost impossible to construct secure accomodation for them given their great skill in working stone and metal which far surpasses that of the dwarves of our own earlier history who were additionally far more docile. Your only hope would be a cage constructed by a high class Noldorin smith, who despite having the natural Eldarin distaste for keeping any living thing in captivity, might make an exception a in the case of a dwarf.

Eomer if there is no Ferny "twin" then who was it who made a move on Aragorn?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

No twin brother, but a twin sister, I am lead to believe.

Speaking of Bill the Pony's remarkable survival in the Wild, I am fairly impressed. Although I don't believe that The Watcher in the Water was interested in the Pony, despite his tender flesh.

This is more of interest to the Wargs of the area. Rest assured, Bill the Pony could not survive an assault by one Warg, let alone a pack of Wargs. Thus, I must assume that the Wargs actually helped Bill the Pony, or at least did not hinder him.

For more information about Wargs, you know who to ask. ;) But the relevant point I am trying to get across here is that Bill the Pony was not a remarkable Pony, but a normal beast of burden. Thus I doubt he would have killed Bill Ferny with that kick.

[Lachwen]

But why would Wargs pass up such easy prey as Bill the Pony? My impression of Wargs (at least in regards to food) is the same as with Boy Scouts: if there is food, whether they are hungry or not, they will eat it. So what reason would they have to not hinder (or even actively help) Bill? Could they have been an outcast pack of vegitarian Wargs?

[Mithalwen]

Indeed I also am puzzled as to why they spared his life... there wasn't exactly a surfeit of food in Eregion at tbat time... I think we need further explanation if my "Bill the Ninja pony theory" is discounted.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Have you two never visited The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread? There you will find a glut of information about Wargs and you will come to realise that they are arguably the most complex creatures in any of Tolkien's stories.

Bill the Pony was fortunate enough not to run into any of the fallen Wargs, creatures who would have torn Bill apart before you can say Blimey! My leg's been bitten off!

But maybe I am making a terrible mistake in my reasoning. After all, Gimli the Dwarf would not have survived a Warg attack if he was on his lonesome, yet he would have no problems in finishing off Bill Ferny quicker than you could say, uh, Crikey! Isn't that a Breelander's head flying past my window?

This conundrum baffles me. As well as it might, being a conundrum and all.

[Lachwen]

I must have missed something - when did Gimli get involved here? :confused:

And no, I have not yet read the Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread, because its largeness frightens me. I am tiny and easily intimidated (or so I would like others to believe...mua-ha-ha!).

[Mithalwen]

I did dip into the WAWRAT but its scale (both in volume and erudition) daunted me also. But am I to take it that not fallen wargs would let Bill on his way quietly?...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It's alright Lachwen, I merely used Gimli as an example to show that Bill the Pony perhaps could kill Bill Ferny with his kick, a notion I had previously doubted.

Yes Mithalwen, you are correct in assuming that noble Wargs would not have hindered Bill's journey home. They would have more likely taught him deep philosophy than eaten him.

[Mithalwen]

Clearly I must revist this thread.... so if Bill encountered noble (vegetarian?) Wargs who showed him the path to enlightenment (aswell as the road home), were they the same wargs who assailed the Fellowship of the ring - and if so did the fellowship woefully misinterpret their intentions?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I've found this link concerning Bill Ferny.

http://www.geocities.com/louis_martian/something.html

Personally, I think the movie was great, if somehow a little confusing. I know, some of the scenes were noncanonical, but hey! the director here is breaking new Middle-earth ground, parts of the Legendarium yet unexplored. We should give him some slack.

What movie are you talking about?

The movie about Bill Ferny and his supposed death.

There was no such movie.

Oh. You got me. *dissolves into a molten glob of humiliation*

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Wow, I've not been on this thread for a while, looks like it's doing well, although I'm kinda suprised about all this talk of vegitarian Wargs and whatnot. :D

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well Mithalwen, I think it's quite possible that Frodo Baggins hated Wargs because they come across as really not all that nice in The Lord of the Rings. And he wrote the book. So I guess it's possible that the supposed 'assault' by the Wargs was misconstrued. But it's way off topic.

I have a new theory. Bill Ferny was the Mouth of Sauron. After the fall of Barad-dur, he perished (as was discussed on another thread quite recently). I dare any of you to dispute this. If you think about it closely you will see that it is hard to deny. They both had very similar hairstyles after all, as was noted by Aragorn King of Gondor in his little known book Bree: A Critical and Not Altogether Nice Review.

[Lhunardawen]

Bill Ferny was the Mouth of Sauron.

Wasn't that Alatar? Or was it Pallando?

But you have very complicated theories. Mine's simple: Sam threw him a radioactive apple. That's why he said "Waste of a good apple." It's hard to create a radioactive apple, let me tell you. Bill probably died sometime during the early Fourth Age, as the chemical component of the apple has a fairly short half-life (whatever the apple is made of).

[Mithalwen]

Interesting link Nilpaurion ..

Eomer ... if Bill Ferny were the mouth of Sauron - why did not Aragorn, who had been more intimate with him than most denounce him? And who did Bill the Pony (whether ninja or not) kick in the Shire (possibly an euphemism for a tender area?)?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Aragon had a lot on his plate at that moment in time. It is also possible that it was not Bill Ferny working as a Ruffian, but rather an imposter, or at least a phantom. Because Tolkien did not write about it, no-one can denounce this theory as being ridiculous.

Think about it, Frodo was delusional near the end of his life, any other Hobbit would tell you that. His account of the Scouring of the Shire cannot be considered concrete evidence in the case.

As for use of the phrase The Shire, I am currently finding it hard to stop laughing. :D

[Mithalwen]

Glad to amuse:D Probably better not to extend the idea to "the Scouring of the Shire" - enough to make even a woman wince.... oh err oops

But I sense an agenda here..... would you suggest that the account of the Ringbearer is flawed overall - misrepresentation of Wargs, gross factual errors regarding the identity of fringe but not insignificant characters? This is obviously a more significant issue than I previously thought.

[Lachwen]

So Frodo was writing with an agenda? Hmm...hard to discredit. But what, exactly, was his agenda? Bill-Ferny-gate makes it obvious that it goes beyond merely smearing the noble Wargs.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Perhaps not with an agenda as such, but Frodo was essentially mad near the end of his days on Middle-earth. Could this pose problems for even more significant questions than Did Bill Ferny Die? What else has Frodo been wrong about?

[Mithalwen]

Actually - why do you thing Frodo was mad? Apart from his moments of pain induced delirium what is the evidence for a lack of lucidity?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It was considered in Hobbit circles even before Frodo left that he and Bilbo were 'away with the fairies', so to speak. After he came back to the Shire with (let's face it) all these ridiculous tales about Elves and Orcs and Mountains of Fire, it was generally regarded amongst those in the community that young Baggins was completely off his head.

This comes across even in the Red Book, Frodo's personal propoganda. I can only imagine what an objective view would consist of.

[Mithalwen]

So you mean it was all a hoax? That the blackriders were an elaborate prnk of the Brandybucks and the four hobbits spent the time they were allegedly down south holed up at Tom Bombadil's and emerged a year later once hte effect of those mushrooms had worn off....

So the orcs, monsters and all .... the great quest was more of a big trip?

[Lachwen]

So the title of the Red Book should really be What A Long, Strange Trip It's Been, right? :D

And the phrase "away with the fairies" just brings all the wrong connotations to mind... :eek:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I quite like the phrase away with the fairies.

And it does make me wonder what else the Hobbits got up to on their travels. I would rule Tom Bombadil out though. I mean, the guy just doesn't make sense at all. If ever there's an example of Frodo's deranged warblings, it's Tom Bombadil.

[Mithalwen]

I must admit I always believed the whole of the strange episodes between Crickhollow and Bree were the side effects of Mrs Maggot's mushrooms. Otherwise it is somewhat bizarre ... even for a story that features walking trees, talking eagles etc..

[Mithalwen]

And "Away with the fairies" is a bit harsh if you happened to be referring to the Gildor episode...... :rolleyes:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think you are referring to something which I am not, thus I shall probe no more.

We have entered murky waters. What can we be sure of in the text? Perhaps we can trust what is given to us at the end of the Silmarillion. There it tells us that there was a great War and it also says that Frodo the Halfling did indeed cast the Ring into the Fire. Who wrote this? By which tales and songs has this final story come to our ears?

Also, note the discrepancy in the final analysis. Perhaps Gollum never existed either?

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Man, I've been reading all these posts and it's some deep stuff indeed, I wouldn't really call Frodo "mad", I feel a better word would be "traumatised", I think it's quite clear to see in the book as after he destroyed the Ring he used to finger and hold a white pendant that hung around his neck (I'm not 100% sure of all the details of whether or not it was a pendant or a jewel so please correct me if I'm mistaken), this sounds like the acts of a deeply disturbed mind albeit one that is not completely mad.
As for Frodo making everything up in a sort of delerium, I'm not entirely sure what to think although I hope it wasn't as I like the real story better. :D

[Mithalwen]

We have entered murky waters. What can we be sure of in the text? Perhaps we can trust what is given to us at the end of the Silmarillion. There it tells us that there was a great War and it also says that Frodo the Halfling did indeed cast the Ring into the Fire. Who wrote this? By which tales and songs has this final story come to our ears?

Also, note the discrepancy in the final analysis. Perhaps Gollum never existed either?


Are you saying that C R Tolkien is a more reliable historian of Middle Earth than JRRT? An interesting hypotheses ... many of us hold that the old boy *whispers* was making the WHOLE thing up*..

The jewel was agift of Queen Arwen ... some sort of Elvish crystal therapy I believe...

[Lachwen]

So we are to assume, then, that the Elves began the whole New-Age thing of using crystals cure bodily ills? Hmmm....that might explain Celebrimbor's obsession with the Three Rings: they had the best crystals in them. Or maybe the best for him; jewelsmith that he was, he probably got terrible tension headaches from concentrating on his work all the time. Maybe he made the Three just to get rid of the headaches... ;)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I think the whole solution to this story revolves on that.

Bilbo's story of There and Back Again was obviously true, as no-one in his right mind would write the word "grocer" on an autobiography (if I have to, I'll use the phrase "commodities trader"), not even Mad Baggins in his right mind.

OK, that's a metaphysical dislocation there. Mad Baggins is not in his right mind. How do you resolve this?

Mad Baggins is in his right mind. He's mad.

Anywhen, Frodo's crystal might be some sort of hallucinogen, marketed by the Elves so they could subjugate the lowly Men once more. Mwahahahaha!!!

Oh, no. Now he's mad.
Wait, how about Bill Ferny.

Bill Ferny is an Elvish propaganda, an allegory for all Mankind. We are gonna have a pony kick y'all in your Shires! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:rolleyes: Forgive him. He's mad that way.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Bill Ferny, an allegory for all mankind? Who would have thought that Bill Ferny would turn out to be arguably the most culturally significant character in the entire works of J.R.R.Tolkien? A year ago I would have scoffed at the idea, but now after following the logic, it appears a strong case.

But wait, if Bill Ferny represents the enslaved Man, who do the Elves represent?

[Mithalwen]

Well evolutiuonarily speaking - a low down, sneaky sort with an awareness of the way the wind blows and an eye for the main chance is more likely to suvive than these high minded noble types.. cf the Blackadder dynasty...?

[Lachwen]

You know, Mithalwen, never before I found this board would I have imagined there would be any parallels between Middle-earth and The Blackadder Chronicles. Now I have a mental image of Celeborn shouting "Shizzik! Fresh horses!" :D

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

. . . if Bill Ferny represents the enslaved Man, who do the Elves represent? (Eomer)
That's an interesting question. But the answer remains far from clear. Certain scholars believe that, due to the crystal issue, the Elves represent some giant crime syndicate marketing drugs. They have a surfeit of canonical evidence backing this theory, some of which are:

Pippin afterwards recalled little of either food or drink, for his mind was filled with the light upon the elf-faces, and the sound of voices so various and so beautiful that he felt in a waking dream. (LotR I 3)

Sam could never describe in words, nor picture clearly to himself, what he felt or thought that night . . . (ibid)
They say that the food was laced with some Elvish hallucinogen, resulting in lapses in memories and outbursts of euphoria among the hobbits.

Other say this is ludacris, and believe that the Elves were the ancestors of today's intelligence agencies. Recall Bilbo's encounter with the Rivendell Elves, or the meeting of Frodo and Gildor. It gives evidence to a vast network of informants spying for the Elves.

Some even surmised that the Elvish "foreknowledge" is but a result of excellent information acquisition and analysis, producing an estimate for the said "foresighted" Elf years before the actual event.

There are other theories concerning Elves, ranging from Wargs and horses to geological outgrowths, but these two are the most well-defined schools of thought concerning the meaning of Elves.

I, however, believe that Elves represent certain species of amry ants found in Africa. I mean, have you seen their cities, or heard them talk? Perhaps a colony of this dwelt near Tolkien's childhood home in South Africa, and these insects gave inspiration to the Quendi.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Bringing it back, I think it's important.

I'm still interested in this discrepancy between the books. Why would the Silmarillion fail to record Gollum? Could it be that *gasp* the chances of such a creature surviving really are non-existant? It's a wonder so many people have believed it. How has Frodo gotten away with this for so long?

Patrons of The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread are familiar with Baggins' anti-Warg propoganda. Is there any malice in his creation of the spook 'Gollum'? What was Frodo trying to achieve?

And do feel free to speculate further about Bill Ferny. That is one question that was never answered to full satisfaction. ;)

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Ah, time to bump this topic I think. It's been three years after all.

[Boo Radley]

But don't forget that Bill the Pony made it back to Bree despite Snakes and Wolves (though why he headed back to Bree not Rivendell can only be surmised - may be he was out for revenge). Goodness know what skills he learned on that remarkable journey. My theory is that he made a detour to the mystic east and learnt martial arts from a great master (cf the Matrix cow) and where his hooves were shod with metal from a renowned sword (The Green Dragon Destiny). Thus one blow from a hoof thus shod and wieded with such lethal skill could indeed prove fatal.

Bill the Pony: "But Master, when will I earn the right to have my hooves shod with metal and fulfill my destiny?"

Great Bovine Master: "You must have patience, Grasshopper."

Bill the Pony: "I'm a pony."

Great Bovine Master: "Shhh."

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Could it have been possible that Ferny would have run into Old Man Willow? Disorientated and injured he would easily fall foul of the Old Forest.