The Dwarves

[Eol Telemnar]

Hey, I have a question. Where are all the dwarves? The only place I know about is the Mines of Moria, which is dwarven, no more. where are the dwarves?

[Earendilyon]

Well, in the Silm it is told there were originally seven Dwarven cities: two in the Blue Mountains, called Belegost and Nogrod, Moria in the Misty Mountains and four more further East.
As you may remember from the Hobbit, Thorin c.s. came from his mines in the leftovers of the Blue Mountains (though Belegost and Nogrod were destroyed at the end of the First Age). Also, there lived Dwarves to the East of Erebor, in the Iron Mountains, who came to help Thorin in the Battle of the Five Armies.
More can be read in one of the HoME volumes; can't recall at the moment which volume, though. You can also have a look at The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm), lemma 'dwarves' in the Alphabetical Index.

[Eol Telemnar]

In the time of The FOTR, TheTwoTowers, and the ROTK, how many dwarf cities are left?

[Tar-Alcarin]

one, i think. Up in erebor near the DAle. There a battle took place at the end of the third age. I think that Belegost still might be around, but Im not sure.

[Eol Telemnar]

smilies/eek.gif The Kingom of the Dwarves down to one city?!! smilies/eek.gif Thats not very much. That city must be pretty big to fit all the dwarves in Middle Earth

[Earendilyon]

I think Thorin's people left the Blue Mountains after Erebor was recaptured, so those lived at Erebor at the time of the War of the Ring. As I don't recall having read that the Dwarves of the Iron Mountains left their home to live at Erebor (I think even, that the Hobbit tells they left for their homes again after the Battle of the Five Armies), I think they still lived there. Of the other four Dwarven cities, I don't know a thing smilies/smile.gif
As can be read in the LotR, some Dwarves tried to conquer Moria again after the recapture of Erebor, but failed. I don't know whether Moria was re-inhabited after the War of the Ring. Maybe other members of the BD know.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Wel, not down to one city, exactly. THere were still probably mines and such, and smaller cities such as Erebor.
Anso, the 'kingdom of the dwarves' was not really one kingdom, as far as i know. There were 7 races of dwarves, and, i believe, they did not consist of one united kingdom.
What makes you think that there were no dwarven cities left in the east?

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

O, and belegost was destroyed, I am not sure when.

[Eol Telemnar]

That's better, I was about to say. That would be crazy if were down to one dwarven city

[Rhunedhel]

Im not positive, but i believe moria was reinhabited.. im not positive, and am too lazy to look up reference. But the Balrog was gone, and the orcs disspersed. Wouldnt you have gone back? And as for other dwarven places, didnt gimli and some of his kin to the glittering caves?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:37 PM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: Rhunedhel ]

[Gorwingel]

Well wasn't it that the dwarves were in decline too just like the elves? Because doesn't it say in the appendixes of LOTR that the fourth age that begins at the end of the book is of the dominion of men, and the decline of all other speaking peoples in Middle Earth. How many elven cities were left at the time of LOTR? Not very many from what I have read. So it must have been the same sort of situation for the dwarves.

[Eol Telemnar]

yea, they probably were in decline

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

The only problem with this is, where would they go? The elves sail away to Valinor, but where could the dwarves go? Or do they just die?

It does not seem to me that Tolkien would have the dwarves all die and lose all of the knowledge that they had gained.

I am not saying the dwarves were not in decline, but I do not see how their decline could be similar to the elves, who went to valinor.

Any ideas?

[Eol Telemnar]

I think they all hid away, in their caves. They could be in decline, but not say much. YOu don't hear of them much in the 3 books (TFOTR, TTT, and ROTK) they hide in their caves, it says in the fellowship (i think).

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Well, the dwarves of erebor fight to stop Sauron from invading in the north, i think.

And i think we need a better definition of decline. I always thought it meant they would eventually die.

I stick by my earlier post.

[Finwe]

The Dwarven population probably eventually died out for two main reasons. First off, there were few females, and not many males were willing to be married. That itself reduces the number of offspring produced drastically. Secondly, the Dwarves kept to themselves, of course with a few notable exceptions, ergo their beliefs/customs/ideas weren't spread out over an area. Since no one really knew much about them, they quickly began to be forgotten.

By the end of the Third Age, the only Dwarf kingdom that existed in Eriador was the Lonely Mountain, ruled by Dain II Ironfoot and later, his son, Thorin III Stonehelm. There was a smaller settlement at Aglarond, "ruled" by Gimli, son of Gloin, but that wouldn't really count as a kingdom, per se. It would be more of a settlement of Dwarves working together. I don't think Moria was re-populated because of the shadow that it had long lain under. It would take a very long time for people to forget that shadow. Even though there are only two main "settlements" of Dwarves in Eriador, there could still be a lot more further East into Middle-earth. They just don't come into the story.

[Eol Telemnar]

The Dwarven population probably eventually died out for two main reasons. First off, there were few females, and not many males were willing to be married. That itself reduces the number of offspring produced drastically. Secondly, the Dwarves kept to themselves, of course with a few notable exceptions, ergo their beliefs/customs/ideas weren't spread out over an area. Since no one really knew much about them, they quickly began to be forgotten.

By the end of the Third Age, the only Dwarf kingdom that existed in Eriador was the Lonely Mountain, ruled by Dain II Ironfoot and later, his son, Thorin III Stonehelm. There was a smaller settlement at Aglarond, "ruled" by Gimli, son of Gloin, but that wouldn't really count as a kingdom, per se. It would be more of a settlement of Dwarves working together. I don't think Moria was re-populated because of the shadow that it had long lain under. It would take a very long time for people to forget that shadow. Even though there are only two main "settlements" of Dwarves in Eriador, there could still be a lot more further East into Middle-earth. They just don't come into the story.

What book did you get all this from???

[Findegil]

Erebor is not really in Eriador. But that not my point.

Thorin's People left the Ered Luin after the death of Smaug to reinhabit Erebor, but it is said (in one of the Tolkien books - don't ask me which one) that ever some Dwarves staid there. Properbly that were some members of the westerly houses (Firebeards and Braodbeams) that had lifed there ever since the days of the seven fathers.
The House of Durin (the Longbeards) setteld in many mountians. Durins place of aweking was Gundabad. From there he wandered south and founded Khazad-dûm (Moria), but it is told in The Peoples of Middleearth that the dwarves maintained Gundabad until the end of the first Age when it was captured for the first time by the orks flying from Angband. By that time the dwarves had settled the Ered Mithrim and the Iron Mountians. They considered the whole Mountianranges from Moria to the north to Gundabad and east to the Iron Mountains as their teritory.
In the seconde Age they lost controll over much of the northern mountians and were reducde to Moria a few settlements in the Ered Mithrim and the Iron Mountians.

The further History of the Indrafangs should be known from the Appendix of LotR. I only like to add that Moria was recaptured by the Dwarves under the rule of Durin VII. and Last son of Thorin Stonehelm. And that Gimli did not life in Aglarond. He builded a dwarve-settelment in the White Mountains near Minas Tirith and visited Aglarond from time to time.

About the eastern houses (Blacklooks, Stifbeards, Ironfists and Stonefoots) we do know nearly nothing. But it is told that all houses sended trops to the war of the Dwarves against the Orks following the death of Thror. Since these Dwarves returned to their homes after the Battle of Azanulbizar the eastern kingdoms would still be in existens in the later third Age.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Wait: after the dwarves reinhabited Erebor, was there still a dwarven kingdom in the Iron Hills? If there was, it seems to be one you have forgotten.

[Tar-Alcarin]

Bacl to the Moria thing, Yes balin did return to Moria only to reawaken the Balrog of Morgoth. So now, at the end of the third age, Moria was uninhabited. It might be rehabited later on in the 4th age but we do not know for sure.

[Finwe]

Eol, I got all of that information from Return of the King, and from common knowledge of population growth.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Well, moria could not really be reinhabited if the dwarven population was declining enough to not populate the places already populated. What I mean is, if the overall dwarven pop. is falling, then it makes no sense to send dwarves away from the main center of pop. and settle somewhere else. Usually settlements build when there is extra pop. However, if Balin was willing to go to Moria near the end of the third age, when the dwarves were already in decline, then you cannot know if any other dwarves would have gone back to moria.

[Finwe]

Also, if Balin had been after Dain for a while, to let him take a few Dwarves back to Moria, Dain would have probably let them go, just to get rid of them. Dain alone had seen the Shadow that dwelt in Moria, during the Battle of Azanulbizar (or Nanduhirion), and knew that Balin's venture couldn't work out.

[Dain]

Dain didn't want to "get rid of them" when he let Balin go to Moria, he just knew he couldn't stop them. All dwarves dreamed of re-opening Khazad-Dum, and Dain couldn't hold them back.

As for Dwarven settlements at the time of LotR, I believe there were Dwarves in the Blue Mountains (not Nogrod or Belegost), Erebor and the Iron Hills.
The Blue Mountains, where Thorin stay while in "exile," wouldn't have been abandoned when he reclaimed the Lonely Mountain--there were dwarves there before his people fled there, and they would remain after he left. Same with the Iron Hills. Dwarves would have come to Erebor from other places, and I think the excitement of regaining their old kingdom could have spurred a little population growth, too. Dwarves are always looking for new places to mine, and never forget about old places they have lost. After their success with Erebor, I think they would have caught the exploring bug again...

In the fourth age, we have dwarves spreading again, to Aglarond and to Moria. They eventually disappeared, but I think Dwarves had a bit of a recovery in the 4th age.

[Mahal]

Yes, but I heard(here or on another board) that the dwarves died out, its in the people of middle earth. But after the Dagor dagorath, the dwarves do help Aulë with the rebuilding of Arda(I think they were kept in the halls of Mandos). But as for the locations, I also think in the Blue mountains, the Iron hills and Erebor.

[Dain]

Yes, as I said, they eventually disappeared.

[Findegil]

May be exactly the spreading over to many places spurred their dying out. Dwarves were very proud and individual peoples. I think als long as they had a chance they settled in very small units of close kin. Remeber that even in the decline of the exil of Thror, Thrain and Thorin they did not try to reunit their family tribes: Thror and Thrain never went to the Ironmountians were most of their people dwellt with her cousins Nain and Dain.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Gil-numen]

The Dwarves reinhabited Moria. The last King was Durin VI and all the Durin's lived in Moria.

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Thingol to Beren