Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn

[lindil]

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I was reading RotK and I realized that Faramir shows no suprise at Aragorn's arrival.
Had Denethor [who knew from Thorongil and via the palantir] already tried to sway him against letting an Heir of Isildur on the throne shuld Faramir outlive Denethor?
Either Denethor knew this or guessed that Faramir would yield the sceptre, as his words at the pyre show.
his bitterness at gandalf having been a teacher and faramir a 'pupil' . Had G. let Faramir in on aragorn?
And did Denethor ,specifically send faramir out to the passage of the River to get him kiled so that no one should take over the stewardship who would acknowledge the heir of Isuldur.Is this why D.is so full of regret at the seemingly fatal sickness of Faramir?

I have not read the relevant HoME 6-9 to know if there are other allusions tothese matters , so any one who has
please chime in.


and one more q.
And why on earth did Aragorn not raise the standard of the WhiteTree immediately upom seizing the ships!
what would denethor's reaction to that have been,seeing the White Tree sailing up the Anduin in the palantir instead of the corsairs?




Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/5/01 11:36:57 am

[Voronwe]

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Re: Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn

In regard to the question of the rasing of the standard, I think Aragorn wanted to keep the element of surprise, fooling Sauron's armies into thinking that the black ships were coming to their aid so they could be trapped.

If Denethor had known who was really in the ships, I doubt it would have brought him out of his despair. Especially since Aragorn was coming to succeed him.



-Voronwë
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[Gilthalion]

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Re: Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn

I agree that the element of surprise was the chief consideration in waiting to unfurl the banners until the fleet was upon the enemy.

As for the other matters, they are subtle questions.

I do not know if Denethor ever pieced together the connection between Aragorn (knowledge gleaned from Pippin) and memories of a long vanished rival, Thorongil.

Even so, as Gandalf told Pippin, Denethor guessed much.

Was there an opportunity for Denethor and Faramir to discuss Aragorn? (I'm not sure.)

If so, was the matter of the continuation and succession of the Ruling Stewardship discussed?

That would put the final conversation of Denethor and Faramir in a different light.

But I do not believe that Denethor ever wanted Faramir killed, or sought to have him killed by sending him into peril.

I tend to think that it was the Ring that came between them. Denethor had been exposed to the Lord of that Ring through the Palantir. He noted how Faramir looked to Gandalf. He knew something of why Boromir had died. He deduced that Faramir passed up the opportunity that he himself or Boromir would have siezed. Denethor knew much ancient lore, and knew the halfling-rhyme that came to his sons in their dreams.

But I think it was the Ring,
rather than the King.

I think despair had a hard hold of Denethor at this time, and his last possible hope had died.

Nevertheless, his mind was not broken at this point. Rather, he was harsh in his grief and despair, and took it out on Faramir, sending him to battle without even a blessing.

But I think it was the influence of the Ring that sharpened the edge of bitterness in the scene, afflicting the father from afar, as it overthrew the elder son when at hand.

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[lindil]

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the base master of treachery

Clearly sauron had daunted the will and blunted the nobleness of Denethor. But Denethor was a prideful man from the begining.
Instead of being grateful for Thorongil's help [not to mention learning to keep tabs on Umbar and conduct
&quot;seal&quot; type commando activity activity ] he was jealous and while he did not desire to be King as did Boromir , he sure wanted to rule as one and not see one around [although to be fair a prejudice against the Northern line was far older than he]. But he asked for no help or counsel from Gandalf ,maintained no ties w/ the Wise [whose emmisaries Gandalf and Thorongil were- if he had but the eyes to see as did his son Faaramir and his [br-in- law ?] Imraihil.

He may have become aware that Aragorn had acquired the Palantir of Orthanc, and thus been confirmed of his Identity.
I would imagine that he also felt less ureof Gandalf after learning of Sauruman's betrayel. I imagine Denethor had harsh words to G. over the 'Wise's' failure to monitor and even combat their own.

Although Denethor could have seen that Sauruman was building a dark Army -we have no clue that he ever did.
In the end I think he had been poisoned as surely as Theoden but would accept no healing.


</p>

[Mhoram]

'And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not? " he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice." Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him? '
'It does,' said Frodo. `Yet always he treated Aragorn with honour.'
'I doubt it not,' said Faramir. `If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch has not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her wars

A valuable quote when considering Denethor in relation to Aragorn. I leave it up to you to interpret it.

[Kuruharan]

Was there an opportunity for Denethor and Faramir to discuss Aragorn? (I'm not sure.)

Denethor did not strike me as the trusting sort, I'm not sure that he would have trusted Faramir enough to discuss this with him.

He may have become aware that Aragorn had acquired the Palantir of Orthanc, and thus been confirmed of his Identity.

If he was really using the palantir as much as he seems to have been it seems pretty likely. In fact, I've always thought that's the main reason why he knew that somebody was coming.

[Orodhromeus]

If the Dark Lord allowed to Denethor to see only what He wanted to see, then I don't think Denethor ever learnt that Aragorn had the Orthanc Stone, unless he saw it in Pippin, who himself didn't know who had it (Gndalf gave it to Aragorn in secret). Pippin shortly refers to Aragorn in front of Beregond without stressing much; maybe Beregond gave this away to Denethor.

As for Aragorn not raising the standard, maybe he had it raised from Pelargir but Denethor couldn't see enough detail to notice it (or he was too desperate to pay attention). On the other hand, we don't know for sure wether Aragorn knew that Denethor had a Stone or not. He certainly wasn't expecting him to be watching.

[Kuruharan]

But Sauron had lost control of his stone after his bout with Aragorn. I think that if Denethor had been quietly observing he would not have been noticed.

[Mhoram]

Sauron didn't loose control of his stone...he lost control of Saruman/Aragorn's.

[Kuruharan]

My bad, I thought that was part and parcel of the deal.

[O'Boile]

Frodo tells Faramir about Aragorn in TTT.