Lighting up...

[Gurthang]

Why do you think Tolkien included pipeweed in the stories? The hobbits seemed to be the only producers, although the weed was widely distibuted. It also seemed to be kind of an addiction to the shire folk; they always tried to carry some, and were very happy to see it when they hadn't had a smoke for a while.

Or maybe they just had fun blowing smoke rings...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:19 PM January 22, 2004: Message edited by: Gurthang ]

[SamwiseGamgee]

It's probably because the professor himself involved smoking a pipe so much. The Shire was an idyllic place, and to him (and I- a fellow pipe smoker) it would seem like heaven to spend days in The Shire, reading a book, playing in the grass before ending up in The Green Dragon to discuss the strange goings on in other lands! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Firefoot]

In addition to that, I think that things like pipeweed are what add to the believability to the books. The small customs such as Pipeweed are what make the characters and the cultures of ME seem real.

[Gorwingel]

Even though it is not exactly a habit that I agree with. I guess as long as they don't have lung cancer in Middle Earth it's okay smilies/wink.gif

I think that Tolkien put it into the story because, yes, he did it himself. And he has said a few times that he is kind of like a hobbit. And maybe he thought that if hobbits were like him, they would like a smoke.

[Armetiel]

There are places in the UT were smoking is used to show a point, such as Gandalf blowing out one big smoke ring followed by a bunch of little ones and then reaching out to grab them but haveing them disappear before he can, which was supposed to symolize to Saruman that the rings were out of his reach kinda thing, but the action not only angers Saruman but he suddenly connects the rings to the hobbit's pipeweed and starts to suspect that Gandalf thinks the ring is in the shire (and this, to Saruman, accounts for Gandalfs many doings in that land) So then Saruman starts visiting the shire in secret himself, or sending others to do it, and making maps of it without anyone noticing (and this has something to do with how there was leaf from the the Shire in Isengard)

Sorry I don't remember the story exactly but it runs a long those lines smilies/wink.gif

[Knight of Gondor]

I have GOT to read UT soon! I didn't know that stuff was in there.

I think a good deal of the pipeweed mentioned had to do with the fact that Tolkien equated hobbits with some groups of people who dwelt in Kentucky. They actually did, in some more backwards areas, have names like Baggins, Proudfoot, and the like! They grow "pipeweed" a lot, and they live simple lives. As I have read a few different places, Tolkien had a student (or was it a fellow teacher?) who hailed from Kentucky, and was questioned deeply about the simple lives the people lived there.

I guess you could just go ahead and call me Baggins then, because I live in that state!!!!! My mother informs me that she honestly and truly had an Uncle Bilbo.

[Gorwingel]

I think a good deal of the pipeweed mentioned had to do with the fact that Tolkien equated hobbits with some groups of people who dwelt in Kentucky.

The Shire having to do with Kentucky smilies/biggrin.gif That is so cool!
I would have never thought about those two places being connected in some way, because initially they seem so different. But then I can now see the similarities. Maybe The Shire is like a British Kentucky smilies/smile.gif

[Angry Brandybuck]

I never equated The Shire with anything to do with America. I always thought that Tolkein, being British, had based The Shire on Somerset and Gloucestershire and other Wessex areas. Coming from that area myself, walking around and sitting in pubs around there always reminds me of the shire.

DOn't know what my point is really, but its interesting to know about that student (or teacher) from Kentucky.

[Gurthang]

Indeed. I have never thought of that as being possible at all. But now that I think about it, it's perfectly logical. Isolated from society; simple lifestyle; living off the land...

That's kinda freaky to think about, that ME may be a collection of many different places on our earth. I wonder where Kansas fits in... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Angry Brandybuck]

I don't mean to be insulting here (we are all academics in discussion here, there's no room for insult) but I can't believe that never occurred to you before.

There are some particular British Isles based comparisons to be made:
Hobbits- Welsh or SW England
Dwarves- I have always thought of as Scottish for some reason. More likely Norse or something
Elves- Nottingham, sounds crazy, but think of Robin Hood and you'll get there.

Those are my opinions anyway, maybe as State-siders you may not see the stereotypes I do. If anyone can think of any other comparisons to be made, then by all means do.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think a good deal of the pipeweed mentioned had to do with the fact that Tolkien equated hobbits with some groups of people who dwelt in Kentucky ... As I have read a few different places, Tolkien had a student (or was it a fellow teacher?) who hailed from Kentucky, and was questioned deeply about the simple lives the people lived there.

Can you give a reference for that, Knight, as it is not something that I have ever come across before? Mind you, Kentucky is a major tobacco producing area.

As I understand it, the Shire is based upon the countryside around Birmingham, where Tolkien was brought up. And the prevalence of pipeweed derives from the fact that, as has been said, Tolkien was a pipe-smoker. He regarded pipe-smoking and ale drinking as activities conducive to relaxation and good conversation. Seems fair enough to me. But then again, I'm a Hobbit at heart. smilies/wink.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lyta_Underhill]

I think a good deal of the pipeweed mentioned had to do with the fact that Tolkien equated hobbits with some groups of people who dwelt in Kentucky. They actually did, in some more backwards areas, have names like Baggins, Proudfoot, and the like! They grow "pipeweed" a lot, and they live simple lives. Wow, Knight! I've never heard this before! I was of the opinion that Tolkien was largely uninformed about most doings in the U.S.. I wonder how many Bubba Bagginses there were? smilies/wink.gif (I live in VERY rural Tennessee, where many of the same conditions apply as in Kentucky, but I don't know any Bagginses...they're all up in Kentucky, er...Hobbiton!) smilies/wink.gif Perhaps the hobbits were also well known for the brewing of ales, uh...moonshine!

Myself, I think that the idea of country living is, in many particulars, universal, and gentlemen from Kentucky would get on nicely with gentlemen from the countryside around Birmingham (not necessarily the one in Alabama!) I like to think of the Tooks as hillbillies, myself, but that's just my own conceit. smilies/biggrin.gif

Cheers,
Lyta, Hillbilly Hobbit

P.S. Anyone ever read a letter Tolkien received from a Mr. Sam Gamgee? Funny how these things happen!

[Knight of Gondor]

Can you give a reference for that, Knight, as it is not something that I have ever come across before? Mind you, Kentucky is a major tobacco producing area.

As I understand it, the Shire is based upon the countryside around Birmingham, where Tolkien was brought up. And the prevalence of pipeweed derives from the fact that, as has been said, Tolkien was a pipe-smoker.

As you know, Tolkien liked to mix his comparisons, and not make them perfect, so it makes sense to base the Shire on more than just one region. I have a few clipped articles about the subject that I shall go find and post about next time. But if you ask me, my great-Uncle Bilbo is proof enough. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Knight of Gondor]

I tried internet searches, but it's no use, all I find are court cases of Shire against the state of KY! I did find this article, which was among newspapers about to be burned (it pays to comb through those sometimes!) about the guy. His name was Allan Barnett, a Shelbyville History Teacher who was a classmate of Tolkien's. A guy named Guy Davenport talks about meeting him in some book called Geopraphy of the Imagination.

[Snowdog]

Back to the pipeweed discussion.... The reason I ever started reading the Hobbit was because my neighbor, whom I had shared many a bowl of "pipeweed" with, told me he was reading a book about Hobbits, who are really relaxed folk who like to smoke pipeweed and eat and drink ale. Got my attention right away! smilies/biggrin.gif

I'm sure the Professor equated it to tobacco as he smoked a pipe and surely the Eagle & Child was filled with aromatic blue haze whilst they were there. But to a younger generation who fueled the popularity of Tolkiens books through the sisxies, I'm sure the similarities of "weed" smoked in a pipe were not lost on any of them (us) smilies/smile.gif

[Lobelia]

I think you'll find a reference to the Kentucky lad in Michael White's Tolkien bio - anyway, that's where I found it a couple of years ago. It mentioned that this might have been where he came up with the idea of barefoot hobbits, because of the barefoot culture there. Hope this helps.

[Finwe]

I was enjoying a clove cigarette the other day, and it somehow distinctly reminded me of the Shire. There was something about the minty-sweet taste and the rich, spicy aroma of a good Black that made me want to actually pull out a pipe and smoke.

[Knight of Gondor]

Of course, hobbits probably died a lot younger as a result of lung disease....

[Finwe]

Ironically, most of them seem to live longer than humans, even though they generally smoke more. Hobbits easily reach the age of 90 or 100 before they die. I think that Hobbits' physiology is different than Humans because Tolkien never mentioned lung disease or any symptoms of it.

[Knight of Gondor]

Ironically, most of them seem to live longer than humans, even though they generally smoke more. Hobbits easily reach the age of 90 or 100 before they die. I think that Hobbits' physiology is different than Humans because Tolkien never mentioned lung disease or any symptoms of it.

I'll try not to drag this too far off-topic, but I don't consider this new post material, yet I do consider it comment-worthy. I find it hard to imagine death in the Shire! Since it's typically considered a sad event, and the Shire seems so unstained by the sadness of death.

[Osse]

I am sorry to say this, and also sorry to drag the topic back a few posts, but I must say I find the idea of the shire being inspired or even similar to kentucky, well absurd... if we live within our own countries, sure we shall find a region that resembles the shire somewhat. For instance I could state that the shire must be inspired by South Australia, because people there (in times of yore) used to smoke pipes, and had odd names... this must be true because there was certainly an australian studying under tolkien at some time in his long career.

Sorry guys, but the shire was inspired by tolkiens english childhood, not by s kentuckian he knew! -Where do you think these kentuckians got these habits, where do you think most american traits come from?

In regards to why the hobbits arent dying of lung cancer; in tolkiens time, any sickness or ill-health was generally not linked to their smoking... it was only recently that people admitted that smoking was anything but good for you. Smoking was a hobby, as was drinking, something for recreation... not something addictive or negative like today.- Thus all the positive aspects were reflected in the hobbits habits.

In reply to the lack of death in the shire... I agree, I just cannot image hobbits at a funeral, perhaps something like the feast they gave bilbo... a celebration of someones life, but certainly not mourning...


Regards to All, especially my Kentuckian comrades,

Osse

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:10 AM February 07, 2004: Message edited by: Osse ]