The Red Book Of Westmarch

[snowbird]

Alright, for those of you who've read the prologue, this has been really bothering me. Bilbo contributed to the red book correct? A lot if I remember correctly. And "There and back again" is part of the red book. Frodo also contributed. But this quote has been really bothering me, it's straight from the prologue.

"[The Red book of westmarch is the] most important source for the history of the war of the ring was so called because it was long preserved at Undertowers, the home of fairbairns, wardens of the westmarch. It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the shire, together with many loose leaves of notes. And durring S.R. 1420- I he nearly filled it's pages with his account of the war. But annexed it and preserved with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that bilbo gave him as a parting gift."

So... If frodo took Bilbo's diary... and made the Red Book from that... what did bilbo give frodo as a parting gift? I'm so confused.

[Elianna]

Way I read it, Bilbo gave the Red Book to Frodo. I mean, Frodo took the diary at the End of the WR. Maybe Bilbo just officially gave Frodo the Red Book when he left.

[Firefoot]

In the evening they went to say good-bye to Bilbo. "Well, if you must go you must," he said. "I am sorry. I shall miss you. It is nice just to know that you are about the place But I am getting very sleepy." Then he gave Frodo his mithril-coat and Sting, forgetting that he had already done so; and he gave him also three books of lore that he had made at various times, written in his spidery hand, and labelled on their red backs: Translations from the Elvish, by B.B. A little bit later Bilbo gives him his diary, or the Red Book. These other volumes that Bilbo gave him are the accounts of the First Age that Bilbo put together in Rivendell. They are "translated" to the Silmarillion in the same way that the Red Book is "translated" into the Hobbit and LotR.

Hope this helps! :)

[snowbird]

It's starting to yes. Thank so much.

So are you saying that the "Diary" and "The Red Book" are the same thing? That's what I was starting to think, the prolouge is written so poorly....

[Boromir88]

I wouldn't say it's written badly you just got to look at this one small phrase...

It (The Red book) was in origin Bilbo's private diary,
So by saying "in origin" mean "It" (the red book) was originally Bilbo's diary of his accounts, then became known as the "Red Book." Think of it as Tolkien's letters, and early drafts, then out of those jumbled masses of notes, rewritings, changes, you come up with LOTR, Sil...etc.

[snowbird]

Yea, but if frodo "took" The book, then It crosses it's self by then saying. Frodo added to it but left the 3 volumes untouched which bilbo gave him...

[Boromir88]

he nearly filled it's pages with his account of the war. But annexed it and preserved with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that bilbo gave him as a parting gift."
I think what it's saying it is Bilbo's three volumes, and what Frodo wrote down in the book is what makes up the Red Book. Frodo left Bilbo's stories alone, added in his own stories, creating the "Red Book of Westmarch," the most important source for the history of the war of the ring.

[snowbird]

So does the "Diary" include "There and back again"? It would sort of make sense if frodo added to the diary and then at the end bilbo gave him There and Back again totally sepretly. But right now it's like Frodo added to Bilbo's accounts completed the book than Bilbo Gave it to him.

[Firefoot]

In the next day or two Frodo went through his papers and his writings with Sam, and he hadned over his keys. THere was a big book with a plain red leather covers; its tall pages were now almost filled. At the beginning there were many leaves covered with Bilbo's thin wandering hand; but most of it was written in Frodo's firm flowing script. It was divided into chapters, but Chapter 80 was unfinished, and after that were some blank leaves. The title page had many titles on it, crossed out one after another, so:

My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And What Happened After.
Adventures of Finve Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by Bilbo Baggins from his own obswervations and the accounts of his friends What we did in the War of the Ring.

Here Bilbo's hand ended and Frodo had wirtten:

THE DOWNFALL
OF THE
LORD OF THE RINGS
AND THE
RETURN OF THE KING

(as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire, suplemented by the accounts of their friends and the learning of the Wise.)

Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell.

"Why, you have nearly finished it, Mr. Frodo!" Sam exclaimed. "Well, you have kept at it, I must say."
"I am quite finished, Sam," said Frodo. "The last pages are for you."Phew! (From "The Grey Havens.")

The Red Book was Bilbo's diary, Frodo's writings on his journey, and Sam's addends. The three volumes Bilbo gave Frodo were supplementary to it, but separate. Frodo (and Sam) only added to the Red Book; the other writings he left alone. Interestingly enough, if you add the number of chapters in the Hobbit and LotR together, you get 80, which is the same number of chapters in the Red Book.

(I can certainly understand your confusion, snowbird. I had the same problems shortly after reading LotR.)

Edit: The Diary is There and Back Again. That was what Bilbo wrote; Frodo added to it.

[Boromir88]

Ok let's look at the quote we get in the prologue, at the very beginning.
Further information will also be found in the selection from the Red Book of Westmarch that has already been published, under the title of The Hobbit. That story was derived from the ealier chapters of the Red Book, composed by Bilbo himself, and called by him There and Back again.
This is saying The Hobbit and There and Back again is the same story, and are found in the early chapters of the Red Book.

Let's move on.

This account at the end of hte Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch. That most important source for the history of the War of the Ring was so called because it was long preserved at Undertowers, the home of the Fairbains, Wardens of the Westmarch. It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and during S.R. 1420-I he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War. But annexed to it and preserved with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matter concerning the Hobbit members of the Fellowship.
So the "final" copy of the Red Book has 5 volumes, 3 of which are Bilbos (a part of it being his tale There and Back Again), 1 being the genealogies, commentary...etc, and one being what Frodo had written. When it says "But annexed to it and preserved with it," that is talking about Frodo's volume, he "annexed," or "combined" Bilbo's three volumes to it, and then later the fifth volume was added.

P.S. Welcome to the downs snowbird . :)

[snowbird]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere, thank you it's really helping me.

So the red book is the diary+frodo's writings+sam's writings??

And the 3 volumes are just a different part of the red book? Because he did "Annex" it on.

And the diary does not = the 3 volumes?

[Boromir88]

Wooo, we finally figured it out. Good job snowbird and firefoot. However, now my brain is fried mush and I'm just going to lay down and pass out.

[snowbird]

So we did!

As a recap: 1st volume = the writings from bilbo's diary, frodos writings and sam's writings.

2nd, 3rd, 4th volumes = other parts of history concerning hobbits ect.

5th volume = commentaries, genealogies and various other matters concering the hobbit members of the fellowship.

This right?

Ah, my brain is mush too!

P.S. What are "The Grey Havens."?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I think the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th volumes were Frodo accounts of the War of the Ring:

Frodo brought [Bilbo's diary] back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and during S.R. 1420-I he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War.

The Fellowship, Two Towers, and Return of the King, perhaps?

Oh, and Grey Havens (or Mithlond) is the haven from where Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo set sail.

Or perhaps you refer to the last chapter of Return of the King.

Hope that helps! :)

[Boromir88]

If you happen to have a Middle-earth map handy it's down by the Gulf of Lhun.

[snowbird]

Nilpaurion Felagund that doesn't really work because we know for a fact what 4 of the volumes are. 3 bilbo gave him which must be sepret accounts of the war and varioius other parts of the history of middle earth. 1 volume is filled with commentaries, genealogies and various other matters.

So were left with one vlume so it's gotta be Bilbo's diary, Frodo's account, and what sam's wrote.

Does that sound right to you?

[Boromir88]

It sounds right but my brain is getting even more mushed. Here, wonder if this will help.

Frodo brought [Bilbo's diary] back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and during S.R. 1420-I he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War.

So that talks about Bilbo's diary, and Frodo added his tale in it. Then...

But annexed to it (the diary) and preserved with it (the diary), probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift.

The parting gift is Bilbo's three volumes, by saying "annexed" I would assum he took the diary (a combination of Bilbo's, Frodo's, and Sam's tales) and combined it with three volumes which Frodo didn't write anything at all in, left it alone.

This part contradicts my earlier post, but now I see how it works. Bilbo's "section" of the diary is his tale There and Back again/The Hobbit
Snowbird, wow you were right this is a tad confusing, but just a tad :) .

[snowbird]

So you're saying that the three volumes are other things bilbo wrote?

In the next day or two Frodo went through his papers and his writings with Sam, and he hadned over his keys. THere was a big book with a plain red leather covers; its tall pages were now almost filled. At the beginning there were many leaves covered with Bilbo's thin wandering hand; but most of it was written in Frodo's firm flowing script. It was divided into chapters, but Chapter 80 was unfinished, and after that were some blank leaves. The title page had many titles on it, crossed out one after another, so:

My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And What Happened After.
Adventures of Finve Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by Bilbo Baggins from his own obswervations and the accounts of his friends What we did in the War of the Ring.

I'm wondering if that's saying that the three other volumes are My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And What Happened After.
Adventures of Finve Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by Bilbo Baggins from his own obswervations and the accounts of his friends What we did in the War of the Ring. And that the diary is something different. And that Frodo just took that and him and sam added to that.

Argh, so confused.

[Boromir88]

So you're saying that the three volumes are other things bilbo wrote?
Yes, but I could be wrong.


I'm wondering if that's saying that the three other volumes are My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And What Happened After.
Adventures of Finve Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by Bilbo Baggins from his own obswervations and the accounts of his friends What we did in the War of the Ring.
It's possible.

[snowbird]

Do you know if Frodo "added to the diary" before or after he recieved the 3 other volumes?

If so Then it makes sense that frodo has the diary and the 3 other volumes and there are some blank pages that he and sam fill. And that makes a lot of sense. Otherwise back to the drawing board.

[Firefoot]

Hold on a minute. The

"My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And What Happened After.
Adventures of Finve Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by Bilbo Baggins from his own obswervations and the accounts of his friends What we did in the War of the Ring."

is what Bilbo was going to name the Red Book - he was having some trouble coming up with a title. Frodo got rid of all that and replaced it with "The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King." Those titles are NOT the names of those other volumes.

All of these different books are getting confused on this thread. They are:

The Red Book of Westmarch: Includes Bilbo's diary of his journey (The Hobbit), Frodo's telling of the events of the War of the Ring, and Sam's reflections. This book was started by Bilbo in Hobbiton, taken with him to Rivendell to finish (though he didn't), given to Frodo in Rivendell on Frodo's way back to the Shire, nearly finished by Frodo in the Shire, and given to Sam to finish before Frodo passed into the West.

Three volumes (also bound in red leather): Includes the compilation of the tale of Elves in the First Age (The Silmarillion). These were written by Bilbo in Rivendell. They were finished by the time Bilbo gave these volumes to Frodo. Frodo used them as references while writing his part of the Red Book, but he himself did not write in these volumes. They are separate from the Red Book, but they go together like books in a series.

A fifth volume: Included genealogies, commentaries, etc. concerning the hobbit members of the Fellowship (i.e. Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin). This was added later in Westmarch. This volume is like the Appendices at the back of RotK.

Frodo did add to the diary (The Red Book) after he received the three volumes.

I hope this will straighten things out.

[Boromir88]

I'm confused, because I thought that is what I was saying, or maybe I just mumbled, and jumbled, and mixed and switched too much, I got caught up in my own reasoning :confused: .