Lord of the Rings, rated PGP

[Elianna]

In this thread, we shall see how many people here are not only geeks, but nerds as well.

I have recently decided to give The Lord of the Rings a rating of PGP, meaning pretty good physics (just enough flaws to be fun).

The examples I have are:

-Legolas walking on top of the snow. The snow isn't dense enough to support the amount of pressure from his weight only applied over the surface area of the sole of his feet. At least in the book, he has to run across the snow, but would that really make it any more believable?

-Legolas climbing up the oliphaunt on the arrows. The arrows have a modulus of rupture (points beyond which the material cannot bounce back to its original shape, and will be likely to break) of 18400 lb/sq in. Hypothesising that the length of the arrow from the oliphaunt's skin to Legolas' hand is 6 inches and the diameter of the arrow is 1/8 in, I find that the arrow could only withstand a load of 4 lbs, and if someone suddenly applied the weight, only 2 lbs.

-Gollum talking with his reflection. The stream is in motion and therefore wasn't a flat surface and couldn't provide as unwavering a reflection as is seen in the movie.

(There's another example, but it's in the EE, so I'll wait until Tuesday to post it.)

Most of these examples have to do with Legolas the elf. So what's the point of having Elves if you're not going to occasionally let them break the laws of physics?

Anyone else nerd enough to think up and post other examples?

[Gil-Galad]

Either its very clever or very ridiculos(sp), maybe i should invent a pun in the future to comment this...but for now


-Hobbits surviving in Mordor without water, and doing hard tasks, they would faint, and you would think faster because they are smaller then men

[Boromir88]

maybe i should invent a pun in the future to comment this...but for now
Ha!

-Hobbits surviving in Mordor without water, and doing hard tasks, they would faint, and you would think faster because they are smaller then men
Darn you! Got to it before me...but let's see if I can think of a few.

I don't know if this would defy physics...but

1) Haldir's making it from Lorien to Helm's Deep in a matter of a few hours. I guess they had Scottie do them a favor. Beam me up!

2) Gothmog, I mean a person that ugly can not be human, he can't even be an orc.

3) Aragorn (TTT)- You have 2,000 good men riding North as we speak. Eomer is loyal to you. He will return and fight for his king.
First, when Aragorn met the Riders of Rohan there didn't even seem to be 200 of them. Now, he automatically knows there are 2,000. I guess the Rohirrim barrowed the cloning machine from Star Wars.

[Lalwendë]

-Legolas walking on top of the snow. The snow isn't dense enough to support the amount of pressure from his weight only applied over the surface area of the sole of his feet. At least in the book, he has to run across the snow, but would that really make it any more believable?

As long as he did not stand still, this would be possible. I was watching a fairly laddish show called Brainiac Science Abuse on Sky the other week (yes, yes, I know it's hardly intellectual, but they blow up microwaves and that...) and they did an experiment to prove that you can walk on custard. They filled a swimming pool with the stuff and yes, you can walk on it; but if you stand still it sucks you in like quicksand. Just a mere trifle for you there...

[Elianna]

Thanks Lalwende! Did they explain at all why you can do that?

Here's another: dwarf tossing. No way Aragorn can give Gimli enough initial velocity to get him from the side door to the causeway. Gimli weighs too much.

[Lalwendë]

Thanks Lalwende! Did they explain at all why you can do that?

I think it was something to do with your weight being spread across the molecules and pushing the water away, and the explanation was sismilar to that given for why quicksand works in the same way. But I have to admit, I was in hysterics at the absurdity of doing an experiment involving walking on custard, so the science part was lost on me a bit. ;) I think a quick 'google' for quicksand should tell you why this happens!

[Ainaserkewen]

Here is but another example of a thread that people love to discuss what they hate, or think is off.

So Gandalf falls seemingly to his doom with the Balrog. His sword falls behind him, but he manages to catch it/fight the Balrog/win. Doesn't gravity pull all objects at the same rate? This has been discussed so often since the Two Towers came out, I'm sure it's been overused.

[Gil-Galad]

i finnally remember one

-the mystery of Gandalf and Saruman on top of Orthanc, how the bloody did they get there? Tolkien never stated that they had teleporting powers, or flying powers, anything like that, they were just guides to stop Sauron, no magic mumbo-jumbo...

[Lalwendë]

Here is but another example of a thread that people love to discuss what they hate, or think is off.

It could be a good one this thread, though, and actually explain why some things might happen in apparent contravention of the laws of science in our world. Of course, as long as you're not like me and you watch experiments involving custard, thus provoking excesive laughter and hence missing the useful explanation....

Sooo...

Here's another: dwarf tossing. No way Aragorn can give Gimli enough initial velocity to get him from the side door to the causeway. Gimli weighs too much.

This might be possible, as I'm sure the heavier an object the more speed it picks up as it is moves; this is to do with the laws of velocity and I don't know the exact theory but I'm sure this is true. This is why an oil tanker takes longer to stop than a fishing boat; the additional weight lends it more velocity.

[Elianna]

This might be possible, as I'm sure the heavier an object the more speed it picks up as it is moves; this is to do with the laws of velocity and I don't know the exact theory but I'm sure this is true. This is why an oil tanker takes longer to stop than a fishing boat; the additional weight lends it more velocity.

Actually, if an object is free-fall, the only force acting on it is gravity, which is always a constent: 9.81 m/s sq. All objects fall at the same speed, no matter what their weight is. A heavier object (like the oiltanker) picks up more momentum as it accelerates. Momentum does have to do with velocity and with mass of an object. I misspoke when I said the problem with dwarf-tossing was Gimli's wieght; the real problem is that Aragorn isn't strong enough to give Gimli the initial velocity he appears to be travel with. (But that he lacks the stength has to do with Gimli's weight.) It'll take me a while to spit out some numbers.

[Lalwendë]

Elianna - are you a proper scientist? Unlike me who tinkers around the edges of cosmology and watches food-stuff experiments?

I Understand though now - so to shift an object which is heavier, there needs to be more force behind it? So, would this mean say, a cave troll would fire an arrow further than an Elf, being that you have to have a fair amount of strength to use a bow and arrow?

[Encaitare]

-the mystery of Gandalf and Saruman on top of Orthanc, how the bloody did they get there? Tolkien never stated that they had teleporting powers, or flying powers, anything like that, they were just guides to stop Sauron, no magic mumbo-jumbo...

Perchance they took the stairs.

[Boromir88]

Perchance they took the stairs.
Ahh, but you still need a trap door, wouldn't you? So there must have been this little trap door.

[Gil-Galad]

but if you look in the movies, the top of the tower has no stairs going up to it, thats what i mean

[Boromir88]

So let me get this straight. Haldir barrowed Scotty's transporter beam to get from Lorien to Rohan. Then Saruman barrowed it to get him and Gandalf on top of Orthanc. No wait...it would be the other way around. Saruman barrowed it from Scotty, Haldir barrowed it from Saruman...now I'm just confused...

Or maybe, to add a bit of physics, when Gandalf hit face first into ceilling of Orthanc, he went flying right through the ceilling?

[Lalwendë]

It might have been whatever technique they used on Rentaghost where Timothy Claypole used to materialise through walls and then laugh maniacally. :p

[Nimrodel_9]

Here's another: dwarf tossing. No way Aragorn can give Gimli enough initial velocity to get him from the side door to the causeway. Gimli weighs too much.
How about when Legolas throws Aragorn and Gimli a rope? Aragorn wraps an arm around the dwarf, grasps the rope with one hand, and is hauled up. How is that possible? I guess Arry is very VERY strong. :eek: ;)

[Elianna]

Elianna - are you a proper scientist?
Nah, just a kid who just had a physics project in which I used these examples. :)

I Understand though now - so to shift an object which is heavier, there needs to be more force behind it?
Right.

So, would this mean say, a cave troll would fire an arrow further than an Elf, being that you have to have a fair amount of strength to use a bow and arrow?
Well, with an arrow, since that has to do with the bow's strength, it wouldn't matter if it's an elf or troll. Now, if they were throwing a rock...that's a different story.

I guess Arry is very VERY strong.
*shakes head at PJ* Must be...

[Rumil]

If you read the Silmarillion, you'll find out that Middle Earth's sun and moon were derived from fruit, possibly a minor physical flaw?

PS. Rentaghost ! There must be someone here nearly as old as me!

[Lalwendë]

Nah, just a kid who just had a physics project in which I used these examples.

You know, you youngsters just put me to shame! You know so much stuff! I couldn't cope with too much more than all those Hobbits dancing around in my head - where do you find the time? *impressed*

PS. Rentaghost ! There must be someone here nearly as old as me!

'Twas my favourite show - Mrs Popov, MacWitch etc., which one always failed to do the materialising properly though?

I was just thinking about Shelob and Ungoliant. I heard once that spiders can only get to a certain size (about as big as a small plate), biologically speaking, and then the genetic composition of their bodies would make them unable to get any bigger, or their skeletons would simply collapse under the weight.

[The Saucepan Man]

'Twas my favourite show - Mrs Popov, MacWitch etc., which one always failed to do the materialising properly though?Wasn't that Timothy Claypole? Or perhaps Mr Davenport? I must watch my Rentaghost video again sometime. Ah, the nostalgia of tea-time children's television ... :)

Sorry. Blatantly off-topic for a moment there. :rolleyes:

... or their skeletons would simply collapse under the weight.Don't you mean that they would be crushed under the weight of their exoskeletons?

Isn't there some law of physics to the effect that any creature above a certain weight would be too heavy to fly. That would put paid to Dragons, Fell Beasts, Giant Eagles and (*ahem*) winged Balrogs. I realise that there were some pretty huge Pterosaurs around in prehistoric times, but I believe that they had hollow bones and were incredibly fragile. I can't imagine Dragons and Balrogs having hollow bones, and Dragons' scales must have been pretty hefty to afford such protection. And the Fell Beasts had to carry Ringwraiths (although, as they were dead, perhaps there weight was negligible).

In any event, I believe that Thorondor was supposed to be the size of a Lancaster Bomber. I can't see a creature that size flying without some kind of artificial thrust. He might be able to take off from the mountains, but if he ever made landfall, he could be in trouble ...

Then again, I am far from being a physicist. My worst subject at school by some margin ... :rolleyes:

[Encaitare]

Isn't there some law of physics to the effect that any creature above a certain weight would be too heavy to fly.

There is, but there are exceptions. According to the laws of physics, bumblebees and helicopters should not be able to fly.

Don't ask me to prove that one -- it's a bit of random trivia I know, but I chose not to take physics, so I don't know the math or anything.

[Lhunardawen]

It's my holiday break, and I'm really glad since for a period of three weeks I can stop thinking about school. What's more, I have more time for the Downs! Now I log on and what I see is a discussion of my favorite subject: Physics. :rolleyes:

Okay, I'll stop the ranting.

How about when Legolas throws Aragorn and Gimli a rope? Aragorn wraps an arm around the dwarf, grasps the rope with one hand, and is hauled up. How is that possible? I guess Arry is very VERY strong.
Isn't a Dwarf and an Elf too heavy for a rope as thin as the one we saw in the movie? Shouldn't their mass, and the fact that they were hanging on in midair, have been enough for the rope to snap, putting an end to their Orc-killing game?


I was just thinking about Shelob and Ungoliant. I heard once that spiders can only get to a certain size (about as big as a small plate), biologically speaking, and then the genetic composition of their bodies would make them unable to get any bigger, or their skeletons would simply collapse under the weight. Ah, but Ungoliant and her descendants are mutants, their genetic composition altered in such a way that they can grow to such extreme sizes. They were probably given a few hundred additional nitrogen-base pairs for their DNA.

Another thing, remember the scene in TTT where Saruman and Gandalf were on top of Orthanc, and Saruman had Gandalf standing diagonally at the very edge of the floor (or ceiling, actually)? I think Gandalf should have fallen already due to the pull of gravity, unless there is a stronger horizontal force that keeps his feet firmly planted on the floor. Maybe his shoes are made of metal and Orthanc is a gigantic electromagnet...

I'll stop now, before I go crazy.

[Lalwendë]

I had to, sorry, it's off topic and all...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/tv/rentaghost/intro.shtml (http://)

In any event, I believe that Thorondor was supposed to be the size of a Lancaster Bomber. I can't see a creature that size flying without some kind of artificial thrust. He might be able to take off from the mountains, but if he ever made landfall, he could be in trouble ...

Makes you wonder why Saruman cut those trees down. Perhaps he was building a runway for some nefarious purpose...

[Lhunardawen]

Makes you wonder why Saruman cut those trees down. Perhaps he was building a runway for some nefarious purpose...
Or he needed talking lumber for some way-out machinery of evil...

[Elianna]

Another thing, remember the scene in TTT where Saruman and Gandalf were on top of Orthanc, and Saruman had Gandalf standing diagonally at the very edge of the floor (or ceiling, actually)? I think Gandalf should have fallen already due to the pull of gravity, unless there is a stronger horizontal force that keeps his feet firmly planted on the floor. Maybe his shoes are made of metal and Orthanc is a gigantic electromagnet...

Hmm, I thought that Saruman was holding him up with his levatation magic.

[Boromir88]

When FOTR first came out, I wondered how this part was possible...

When Merry and Pippin launch off Gandalf's fireworks, and they are not even a foot away, yet they just get a little singed. I work for a fireworks company, and you wouldn't believe some of the stories. Of employees trying to steel fireworks, and losing their hands blowing them up, and many other parts I'm afraid :rolleyes:.

[Elianna]

It's after Tuesday, so here's the other one I promised:

Legolas shooting Gríma on the top of Orthanc! :mad: *Rant on why I don't like what PJ did...* and besides that, I've calculated it: it is physically impossible. In order to gain enough initial velocity to get to the top of Orthanc, at the moment of being released the arrow would have had to withstand an acceleration of 22,227.4 m/sq. s. Not even Lego's spiffy little elf arrow could do that.

[Ainaserkewen]

My dad pointed this out when he saw the movie:

(It would be weird book-wise too) Frodo and Sam were mere meters away from the boiling lava on Mount Doom. My Dad says they shouldn't have been able to survive. That, and Gollum would have vapourised when he hit the pools of lava, not slowly burned to death. But all this would have seriously rearranged the story, so I guess it's okay.

[Elianna]

Add to that the Ring not melting on top of a small solidified glob surrounded by molten lava.

[Nukapei]

Hmm, the Leggy walking on snow part: perhaps Elves have hollow bones? :D

Another one that's bothered me since I saw it is this: Gandalf survives the fall when he's battling the Balrog because he falls into water, right? Well, when your fall is more than a certain height (100 ft, I think, though I may be pulling that number from thin air), unless you land juuuuust right, water is as hard as concrete. And I didn't exactly see him and the Balrog stop fighting long enough to make sure they hit the water right! Think about it in terms of the hardest bellyflop in recorded history. They'd snap their spine!

Oh, not to mention the fact that they fell so far and still lived, no matter what they hit. Because gravity is an acceleration, not velocity, the longer you fall the faster you go. Wouldn't it reach a point long before they hit the water that the pressure was just too much for them to stand, and (especially Gandalf's scrawny self) would've literally been crushed to death by the speed?

[Lalwendë]

(It would be weird book-wise too) Frodo and Sam were mere meters away from the boiling lava on Mount Doom. My Dad says they shouldn't have been able to survive.

Your dad could be right there, certainly in terms of the films. The overwhelming amount of sulphur in the air would have choked them to death. And there is the volcanic phenomenon known as pyroclastic flow - when gasses are released under tremendous pressure and overwhelm all in their path, even eagles wouldn't have been able to withstand such forces.

[Mithalwen]

Wonderful if slightly scary thread .. actually Helms Deep isn't so far from Lorien (though still a fair step) - don't forget that the Three Hunters backtracked a lot..


And I think that the escape from the volcano is a bit implausible especially as portrayed in the films ... Gollum would have just gone Phzzz in a nano second even before he hit the lava - not sunk still looking quite pleased to have the ring back :rolleyes:

[Ainaserkewen]

Your dad could be right there
My Dad is very knowing about such things, and apparently I listen...

[Formendacil]

The only problem with any quibbling about something to do with Elves, Wizards, or others of that ilk is that we don't know what they're capable of.

They aren't human.

They are, quite obviously, endowed with superhuman resources.

Gandalf, for instance, in his fall with the Balrog, is engaged in a titanic Maia-vs.-Maia battle in which he would seem to be free from at least some of the constraints of having taken on human form. Besides which, we have NO way of knowing exactly what Gandalf's magic is capable of, whether or not he NEEDS his staff to work it, or even whether or not Narya could have affected things.

As for the Balrog, considering that he's NOT bound to the form of a man, nor does he seem to be made of normal materials, and the fact that he's a superhuman demon, I personally don't think that its all that improbable for him to hit bottom un-killed.

The big question with the Balrog, at least in my opinion, is how in Angband's name did GANDALF ever kill him after they both survived a fall like that?

[Nukapei]

Hmm, good point, Formandacil. I had forgotten about the fact that Gandalf wasn't a man, just a maia in a man's form. And that the Balrog certainly wasn't "normal". I guess they could survive a fall like that!

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

I think this was mentioned on another thread but when Denethor lights himself on fire and in the next shot is shown falling off the cliff, wouldn't he have had to run like 300 yards in a matter of seconds? Perhaps Scotty's transporter is more popular than we all think...

[The Saucepan Man]

when Denethor lights himself on fire and in the next shot is shown falling off the cliff, wouldn't he have had to run like 300 yards in a matter of seconds?He would have needed to run (while aflame) a lot more than 300 yards, given that his attempted self-immolation took place in a chamber in Rath Dinen, which is the other side of the White Tower. So, his route would have taken him up Rath Dinen, through (or past) the Citadel, across the courtyard and off the end. And he started off in the wrong direction. Now that takes either superhuman speed or superhuman fire-resistance. :rolleyes:

Funnily enough, I only noticed this about the fourth time I watched the film, but now I'm aware of it it really irritates me. Still, the flaming jump off the edge was poorly conceived (as were many elements of the preceding scene) in any event. One of the low spots of RotK.

[King of the North]

wow, Boromir u are like my new idol

First, when Aragorn met the Riders of Rohan there didn't even seem to be 200 of them. Now, he automatically knows there are 2,000. I guess the Rohirrim barrowed the cloning machine from Star Wars.

that was WAY 2 funny

[Formendacil]

He would have needed to run (while aflame) a lot more than 300 yards, given that his attempted self-immolation took place in a chamber in Rath Dinen, which is the other side of the White Tower. So, his route would have taken him up Rath Dinen, through (or past) the Citadel, across the courtyard and off the end. And he started off in the wrong direction. Now that takes either superhuman speed or superhuman fire-resistance. :rolleyes:

Besides which, wasn't Rath Dinen on one of the lower levels of the City? I could be totally wrong (I haven't got a book in front of me to confirm with), but wasn't it supposed to be the lowest or second lowest level? I KNOW it was, as you already mentioned, supposed to be beside the mountains and not the Pelennor.

[Elianna]

Rath Dinen runs on behind the Citadel, closer to the mountain than the Citadal.

[Mithalwen]

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed... so much so that if I were a horse, there would be a stewards enquiry.....

[Lalwendë]

It might depend upon whether he was combusting himself, rather than just his robes burning. If so he could stay alight for quite some time. Though he wouldn't be running anywhere, so that renders the argument incorrect. *scratches chin* Maybe there was another ring bestowing powers of invisibility and a small platoon of leprechauns were carrying him thither? Or perhaps one of the Fell Beasts picked him up and carried him there - that could be true because it was hopping from foot to foot when the Witch King confronted Gandalf, as though it had burned its toes.

By the same token - why do they have that big open gap in the walls of the top level of Minas Tirith? It serves no purpose apart from to make it easier for Denethor to do his diving act. It would have been much better if he'd actually tripped over a little low wall in his flammable frenzy. Even better if he'd slipped on a banana skin dropped by Pippin. Well, it was a comedy moment as it was, so why didn't they add a bit more humour? ;)

[Nukapei]

Yeah, that part was a little unrealistic. The book version was much better, and more believable -- in it, he just burned.

[Neurion]

Here's a good one: Boromir takes three arrows, shot from a longbow by Lurtz, a huge Uruk, at about a hundred yards, while wearing (presumably) only a mail-shirt for protection, and does not even fall over for a couple of minutes, yet in RotK, the fully-armored sentry at Osgilliath is hit by one arrow, from by the shortbow of a little runt of an orc at something like three hundred yards, at around a 45 degree angle, and it not only goes straight through the most heavily sloped part of his breastplate but knocks him right off his feet. Bad. Really bad.

[Lalwendë]

In fact, referring to the books, it appears that Boromir did not even have a mail-shirt:

The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. Aragorn had Anduril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a ranger of the wilderness. Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Anduril but of less lineage, and he bore also a shield and his war-horn.

Gimli the dwarf alone wore openly a short shirt of steel-rings, for dwarves make light of burdens

But then I often find when I'm watching the films that I see incidents where a man ought to have died but did not, or vice versa, in battle. Surely the fight arrangers are just as pedantic as anyone in knowing about such things, so it does surprise me a little.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Oh, goody! A thread on physics in Middle Earth! Just for jollies, I thought I'd add a link or two for those of you (like me) who have thought about such things before and sought out those more expert than ourselves (at least more expert than me!). TOR.net has a section entitled "Green Books," which contains an ongoing series called "The Science of Middle Earth," which is also being released as a book on Amazon.com here: The Science of Middle Earth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1593600232/theoneringnet/104-3010157-2235169)
Articles on TOR.net include:
Introduction (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/071503.html)
What do your Elf-eyes see? (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/081503_02.html)
Notion Club Papers (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/091503_02.html)
Mithril (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/103003_02.html)
Fëanor's Laboratory (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/120103_01.html)
Yet Another Take on Balrog Wings (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/022404_01.html)
How Tall IS a Mallorn Tree? (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/050504_01.html)
My favorite bit in these articles must be the postulation that the palantiri are made of an alternating layered structure of lithium niobate and beta carbon nitride in order to lend it holographic properties and adequate hardness. What fun!

As for the stairs up to the top of Orthanc, wouldn't a well hidden trap door be enough; after all, Dwarf doors can be made invisible, so why not Numenorean doors? :D
As for Gimli-throwing, I'd think he would go pretty far, as he is short AND heavy, thus being built more like a cannonball than any of the other members of the Fellowship. I guess Aragorn would just have to give him a good initial trajectory and then the physics of ballistic motion would take over. (I may have enjoyed physics, but I can't remember the equation anymore!)

Plus, if we postulate that Legolas' arrow could have reached the level of the top of Orthanc, would it come down straight? If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't a long weighted object turn end over end as it traveled through the air? This, of course, doesn't rule out it having sufficient gravitational impetus to make disposition of Grima, but it does seem unlikely to me. However, a bullet fired in the air could easily accomplish this task and has (I read a news story of an unfortunate man in my area who fired a pistol in the air and was struck by his own bullet coming back down. What bad luck!) All that aside, I think Orli-Legolas should have kept his arrow in the quiver and not engaged in such reprehensible, if picturesque, behavior anyway!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Assasin]

I think the arrow would do whatever Tolkien wanted it to do, he's the puppet master. I also want to know why didn't Aragorn die when he fell over the cliff thing? And I know elves are like, really perfect, and everything, but how could Leggy "surf" down the steps? My sister tried to do that. Bozo. Lord of the rings is potentially harmful for the stupid people who try to do the elf stunts. I also want to know why Arwen didn't get hit by the massive flow of "Horse Water" in FOTR. I hear Liv fell of the horse a number of times! Hee hee! :D

[Nukapei]

The problem is that a lot of those instances are in the movies and not the books. For example, Aragorn has no problems with "dying" on the way to Helm's Deep, Leggy never "surfs" down a flight of stairs, Arwen wasn't even near the fords when the "horse waters" came (it was just Frodo, and he was on the far bank), etc. The rest is pure physics!

As for your sister trying out the "surfing" stunt . . . that's kind of unfair to blame the movies for that. That's like saying no movie should have any stunt because people might want to copy them. People just need to have the common sense to understand that that is a movie, this is real life. Yeah, surfing down a flight of stairs isn't realistic, but neither is Elves doing it!

[Lalwendë]

And I know elves are like, really perfect, and everything, but how could Leggy "surf" down the steps? My sister tried to do that. Bozo. Lord of the rings is potentially harmful for the stupid people who try to do the elf stunts.

Careful, you'll have people wanting LotR 'banned' because it could be potentially harmful, especially in this litigious culture that even bans games of conkers for fear of lawsuits! I just hope your sister never watches anything by Johnny Knoxville then.

I think the whole 'surfing on a shield' thing would have been feasible. I spent many a happy hour as a child bombing down the stairs in my friend's house, perched on a tea tray 'sled'. Alas our games eventually came to an end when her father decided to take a turn at this and ended up in hospital. Though I'm quite sure an Elf would be far more agile than a lorry driver with a back complaint ;)

[Assasin]

Ok, maybe it was just my sisters stupidity. And, Nukapei, I was talking about the movies, I usually refer to the movies, because I haven't read the books in a while. Maybe I'll read them this week. ;)

[Neurion]

In fact, referring to the books, it appears that Boromir did not even have a mail-shirt.In the books it was said that the only visible armour Boromir had was a steel collar, but I refer to the films.

BTW, anyone else notice that in the films the armoured characters seem to do significantly worse than the unarmoured ones?

[Shelob]

In ROTK the catupluts/trebuchets shouldn't work (as my brother insists on screaming every time he watches it :rolleyes: ). The projectiles from the trebuchets in Gondor should either, when they land, make craters of some size in the ground (instead of kicking up a handful of dirt) or roll. Similarly the projectiles from the orc catupults shouldn't follow the trajectories that they do (my brother insists that they shouldn't even work, but since I'm not sure about that I'll just go with they shouldn't fire the way they do).

As a whole the orc catupults don't bother me, but the trebuchet projectiles do (Gothmog should not have been able to move three inches and survive! :mad: )

[Neurion]

In ROTK the catupluts/trebuchets shouldn't work (as my brother insists on screaming every time he watches it :rolleyes: ). The projectiles from the trebuchets in Gondor should either, when they land, make craters of some size in the ground (instead of kicking up a handful of dirt) or roll. Similarly the projectiles from the orc catupults shouldn't follow the trajectories that they do (my brother insists that they shouldn't even work, but since I'm not sure about that I'll just go with they shouldn't fire the way they do).

As a whole the orc catupults don't bother me, but the trebuchet projectiles do (Gothmog should not have been able to move three inches and survive! :mad: )As well, the Gondorian stuctures should not crumble like a stack of bricks on getting hit by the orcs' Mangonel stones.

[The Saucepan Man]

As well, the Gondorian stuctures should not crumble like a stack of bricks on getting hit by the orcs' Mangonel stones.Nor really were they the best places for those Gondorian citizens to be milling around. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

Nor really were they the best places for those Gondorian citizens to be milling around. :eek: :rolleyes:

Well that was just another chance for PJ to get his bug eyed brood on screen......


When Boromir died I thought it was interesting how the arrows rearranged themselves....... almost zs interesting as how his hair frizzed and defrizzed in the trying to take the ring from Frodo scene .... but mainly I thought it was unlucky that he lugged that massive shield all around Middle Earth and the one moment it would have been really useful.......

[Faramir]

u guys its fantasy anything can happen...aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?
(im not trying to be rude)

[Nukapei]

Yeah, but fantasy's just another reality. Elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. don't exist, but if they did than LotR would be totally possible. At least, that's the idea! It's fun to post things here that we think go against that idea, then have others either add to it or dispute it.

[Encaitare]

aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?

Yes.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Well, when your fall is more than a certain height (100 ft, I think, though I may be pulling that number from thin air), unless you land juuuuust right, water is as hard as concrete. And I didn't exactly see him and the Balrog stop fighting long enough to make sure they hit the water right! Think about it in terms of the hardest bellyflop in recorded history. They'd snap their spine!

You've got a much higher chance of surviving a fall if a large object falls first and breaks the surface tension on the water before you hit it. It's roughly the same principle as the prow of a boat... only going down and not forward. ;)

Hmm... I wonder what Gandalf could have thrown off the bridge that would hit the water first?

*envisions Istar using large firey (wingless) shield*

:D Sophia

[Nukapei]

lol! Good point!

[Lathriel]

About Legolas walking on the snow, it even says in the books that he can do that. It's an elvish thing.

Here is another thing. the lighting of the beacons. Do those people live up there in the mountains where a blizzard can easily destroy those miserable huts? Is it a family tradition to keep the holy matches dry in case the beacons need to be lit?
Maybe its tradition to mourn at the guy's funeral not only because he is dead but also because he didn't get a chance to light the beacons!

On the side of mount Doom, where were the gasmasks that Frodo and sam needed.
However when my dad talks about this I always tell him A. It's a movie. B. It's middle-earth

[Assasin]

Science doesn't affect people in Middle Earth.

[Encaitare]

Science doesn't affect people in Middle Earth.

It does to some extent. Sure, some things which our science can't explain occur in Middle-earth, but to their science, it's completely logical. For example, the Mirror of Galadriel shouldn't work according to our ideas of what can and can't be real, but to the Elves it's just a form of technology.

And of course certain basic principles apply, such as gravity -- thankfully!

[The Saucepan Man]

Science doesn't affect people in Middle Earth.I appreciate waht you mean Assasin. When it is suggested, for example, that Anglachel (Turin's sword) could never really have spoken, I am the first to say that, in a world of Hobbits, Elves and Palantirs, swords can speak.

But Middle-earth has to have an internal consistency. It has to work according to its own "scientific" laws, otherwise it would not be credible. Admittedly, we can never know the full extent of those laws (just like we are unlikely ever to know the full extent of those within our own world), but I think that we can instinctively tell if something is "not right". So, while I can accept that Legolas can walk on snow, I would find it a little bit strange if Pippin suddenly started flying - unless an internally credible explanation was given as to why he was able to do so.

[Nukapei]

Good way to explain it, SPM! Yes, the basic rules of physics must apply. And, if they're broken, a reason must be given. Like you said, Legolas never would be able to walk on snow in our world; but in Middle-earth, it's just a property of the Elf species, just as much as walking upright is for real humans, or breathing through gills is for a salmon. And Galadriel's mirror, as well as other forms of "magic" such as the palantiri and magic doors, etc., are just forms of technology. Otherwise, again like SPM said, the whole story wouldn't be believable. However, these "rule-breaking" incidences give the story an air of fantasism and other-worldliness that it wouldn't have otherwise. And that's why we love it so much -- it's an escape from reality!

[Neurion]

And that's why we love it so much -- it's an escape from reality!Not quite. A mirror of reality would be more accurate.

[Assasin]

Bleh, who cares? Who cares about science in Middle Earth when it can't be explained? Do we just like to dwell on it, wondering about the unexplainable things in life?

[Lalwendë]

Bleh, who cares? Who cares about science in Middle Earth when it can't be explained? Do we just like to dwell on it, wondering about the unexplainable things in life?

I care! Mainly because I am one of those people who likes to 'figure things out' (and sometimes inadvertently breaks things in that same quest to figure things out :( ). I like this kind of thought as it leads me down other interesting paths - as an example, looking at the links between Saruman and Newton.

I see what you might mean though. Are you talking about the magic in Middle Earth? That sometimes we ought not to try and explain things and simply leave them as purely magical occurences? If so, then I can appreciate that point; sometimes its better not to try and explain everything.

[Essex]

Because gravity is an acceleration, not velocity, the longer you fall the faster you go.only until you reach Terminal Velocity. (hey, that sounds like a great name for a film, doesn't it?)

PS, regarding gravity (which seems to be the main problem on this thread), And of course certain basic principles apply, such as gravity -- thankfully!who says middle-earth had the same gravity as our Earth? (yes, before you say it, I've heard it's meant to be Earth 10,000 years or so ago......) In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

PPS re the beaconsthose people live up there in the mountains where a blizzard can easily destroy those miserable huts? This actually IS based on fact.

[Assasin]

Yes, Lalwende, that's exactly what I mean. Fantasy magic is really hard to understand.

[Elianna]

In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

Because as long as Middle-Earth has about the same radius as present Earth does and about the same mass, it would have the same gravitational acceleration. I doubt these things have changed about our Earth even in 10,000 yrs.

(And because I heart Gríma and do not wish to see him die needlessly at the hands of pretty-boy prince Orli.)

[AragornII]

Another thing about the Balrog and Gandalf. I have a book called The Complete Tolkien Companion, and it says that Balrogs were "spirits of fire" and that they of great size, "enshrouded in flame". So my question is how does Gandalf land on the Balrog if the Balrog is made of fire. Wouldn't he just burn up?
Also, I'm not too knowledgeable in physics, but would the sword really make a humming noise as it fell?

[Encaitare]

who says middle-earth had the same gravity as our Earth?

I meant merely that Middle-earth has gravity. ;)

(And because I heart Gríma and do not wish to see him die needlessly at the hands of pretty-boy prince Orli.)

I share in your plight, Elianna. Oh well.

[yavanna II]

The only problem with any quibbling about something to do with Elves, Wizards, or others of that ilk is that we don't know what they're capable of.

They aren't human.

They are, quite obviously, endowed with superhuman resources.

Gandalf, for instance, in his fall with the Balrog, is engaged in a titanic Maia-vs.-Maia battle in which he would seem to be free from at least some of the constraints of having taken on human form. Besides which, we have NO way of knowing exactly what Gandalf's magic is capable of, whether or not he NEEDS his staff to work it, or even whether or not Narya could have affected things.

As for the Balrog, considering that he's NOT bound to the form of a man, nor does he seem to be made of normal materials, and the fact that he's a superhuman demon, I personally don't think that its all that improbable for him to hit bottom un-killed.


Aren't the Istari unallowed to show off their powers by the command of the Valar? So, how did Gandalf and Saruman used their staffs in pulling away each other?

Actually, by the laws of physics, there's no stuff that can do that [the magnet's a different story], and I doubt if there is enough iron in/on those guys if their staffs were really electromagnets...

I may be the worst in physics and chemistry, but I do have enough wits that got moi landed as a city scholar.

Guess I better ask the science freaks at school... :rolleyes:

[Neurion]

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed...Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

[Nukapei]

Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

Hmmm, didn't know that. Awful decent of them, wasn't it?

PS ~ that was sarcasm, folks.

[Neurion]

Hmmm, didn't know that. Awful decent of them, wasn't it?

PS ~ that was sarcasm, folks.A lot less painfull than being gibbeted, boiled, broken on the wheel or hung drawn and quartered IMHO.

[Lathriel]

They made it so pleasant in those days. (Shiver)

Anyway magic is probably some differnt kind of physics with different rules (Obviously)

[Neurion]

They made it so pleasant in those days. (Shiver)Speaking in terms of sheer numbers killed, one would think it safe to say our predecessors were somewhat more civilized than their 20th century descendants. :eek:

[Nukapei]

Speaking in terms of sheer numbers killed, one would think it safe to say our predecessors were somewhat more civilized than their 20th century descendants.

Naw, they just didn't have the technology needed for an all-out blood fest, like we do. If Midieval Europe had nukes, the death tolls would be just as high, if not higher, as they are today!

[Neurion]

Naw, they just didn't have the technology needed for an all-out blood fest, like we do. If Midieval Europe had nukes, the death tolls would be just as high, if not higher, as they are today!Speaking in broad socioeconomic terms, I beg to differ.

[Nukapei]

Speaking in broad socioeconomic terms, I beg to differ.

Perhaps. But Midieval Europe (which I'm assuming we're talking about, the period from 350 CE to 1450 CE) was quite a bloodthirsty place. Now, albiet, a lot of "civilized" institutions that we still enjoy today (such as universities, representative government, etc.) were invented during this time period. However, many changes (both social and economic) ensured a very violent way of life.

For example, this was the time period when Christianity was really starting to become popular. Although some Christians were tolerant of the older, polytheistic religions, most violently opposed them (witch hunts, the Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.). And even inside Christendom, different factions would disagree, sometimes violently, over specific doctrine (such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, etc.).

Not to mention the various rivalries going on. The French and British were almost constantly at war. Britain was trying to colonize and subdue as many people as possible (a trend which continued until recently). Various dynasties rose and fell, usually with blood being spilled on both sides. The Vikings raided and plundered whereever they went.

These examples (and the acutal damage done by them) doesn't hold a candle to modern-day conflicts, obviously. However, they certainly prove that people in Midieval Europe were just as bloody-minded as their modern-day counterparts.

[Elianna]

Can we please stick to Physics.

[Nukapei]

*grumble grumble* Fine! :D

[Neurion]

Perhaps. But Midieval Europe (which I'm assuming we're talking about, the period from 350 CE to 1450 CE) was quite a bloodthirsty place. Now, albiet, a lot of "civilized" institutions that we still enjoy today (such as universities, representative government, etc.) were invented during this time period. However, many changes (both social and economic) ensured a very violent way of life.

For example, this was the time period when Christianity was really starting to become popular. Although some Christians were tolerant of the older, polytheistic religions, most violently opposed them (witch hunts, the Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.). And even inside Christendom, different factions would disagree, sometimes violently, over specific doctrine (such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, etc.).Oh my, here we go, "C.E." and all. :rolleyes:

I'm afraid that the picture most people have of the Middle Ages is influenced to an alarming degree by the remnants of the haze of Protestant prejudice over the Catholic past and the warped images presented by Hollywood.

First of all, I wonder at the seeming negative impostion of words relating your impression of the "popularity" of Christianity. While it is true that some newly converted kings or chieftains forced the remainder of their subjects to convert to Christianity, this was never a policy of the Church and was dissaproved of. Witch hunts, contrary to what you seem to think, were not symptomatic of Christianity but of the Pagan superstition that the Church fought constantly to dispell.

As to the Crusades, do you really think that in attempting to reclaim Palestine from Islamic occupation, Christian Europe was attacking an "Older, polytheistic religion"?

And concerning the Inquisition, that most wrongfully reviled segment of Catholic history, it ever and only had jurisdiction over (of all people) Catholics. It was originally established as an arm of the Spanish government during the Reconquisita when many Muslims were seen to convert to Christianity and there was a well-grounded fear that some of these might be "sleeper agents". An easy and sure way of avoiding trial by the Inquisition was simply to declare oneself to not be a Christian.

As the (earlier) very real threat of invasion diminished and the problem of heresy grew, the Inquisition was redirected to inquire into the beliefs of Catholics.
Under the authority of the Spanish civil government but staffed and operated by the clergy, or, in many instances, university lawyers, the Inquisition tested the faith of Catholics accused of heresy. Far from the usual mob of ignoble churls eager to condem that one invariably sees, the real Inquisition courts were almost a mirror opposite. Prisoners were accorded rights and priviliges that were almost fantastic by the standards of the day. For example: A conviction required the agreemen of at least two witnesses. Our courts only require one. The accused would be allowed to compile a list of all persons he or she felt might commit calumny against them, and and whose testimony would then be automatically thrown out. If convicted, the accused had multiple levels of appeal open to them, and the benefit of court-appointed lawyers to represent them. The accused could even have the judge replaced if he/she felt that said magistrate was too strongly dispositioned against them.
Inquisition jails were luxurious compared to the prisons that civil prisoners were held in, and there are many cases of accused thieves commiting blasphemy in the lay courts in order to have their cases transferred to the more merciful Inquisitors, and when the Inquisition itself was finally abolished, there were riots all over Spain in favour of its return.

I'm sorry this is so short. I really haven't the time to do this subject justice.

[Gil-Galad]

Kingdom of Heaven

watch it... when it comes out

[Encaitare]

I'm with Elianna... the Inquisition has absolutely nothing to do with Middle-earth physics.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm sorry this is so short. I really haven't the time to do this subject justice.Not short enough as it's completely off-topic. I am sure that there will be those who wish to challenge your version of history. If anyone does, please take it to PM so that this thread can get back on topic in accordance with the thread-starter's request:


Can we please stick to Physics. :rolleyes:

[Nukapei]

Sorry, Elianna, I'll be quiet in a minute.

Neurion, I just wanted to know where you got your sources. All the sources I've reviewed (including an article from Encarta Encyclopedia I looked up quickly to make sure my statements were correct) say the opposite. Especially about the Inquisition, which I have always read was big on torturing the "truth" out of its prisoners, then burning them at the stake. And as for avoiding them by decairing oneself non-Christian, I have always read that they went after "Secret Jews" first.

Again, I never said that the level of violence or deathtoll was greater than today. Just that the violent mentality was compariable to that of our day.

But, I'd like to know your sources! If, as you say, my view of history is "tainted" by Hollywood, I'd like to know!

Edit:

If anyone does, please take it to PM so that this thread can get back on topic.

Will do, SPM! No more Inquisition discussion, only physics! :D

[Estelyn Telcontar]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/images/skwerlz05.jpg

Off-topic posts can be deleted by the moderators and administrators without notice. Please stick to the topic as given in the title, and please stick to Middle-earth, LotR, and Tolkien-related topics on the Barrow-Downs forum! Thanks.

[Neurion]

Sorry, Elianna, I'll be quiet in a minute.

Neurion, I just wanted to know where you got your sources. All the sources I've reviewed (including an article from Encarta Encyclopedia I looked up quickly to make sure my statements were correct) say the opposite. Especially about the Inquisition, which I have always read was big on torturing the "truth" out of its prisoners, then burning them at the stake. And as for avoiding them by decairing oneself non-Christian, I have always read that they went after "Secret Jews" first.PM'ed you.

[Neurion]

Back to physics, the Gondorian armor in the films functions like it's made of plastic. In the attack on Osgilliath, the sentry (the film's stunt coordinator in costume, BTW) is shot by an orc short recurve bow at a distance I guess to be around a 150 yards or greater. The arrow goes straight through the most heavily sloped part of his breastplate and knocks him off his feet.
This is patently ludicrous.

In tests made on a reproduction of a medieval plate steel breastplate in the Tower of London, carefully reconstructed with the aid of ultra-sound scanning to ensure as close as possible an aproximation, a reproduction medieval longbow was employed against it, with both broadhead and bodkin arrowheads shot from various ranges.

The broadheads put small notches in the plate, and the bodkins put shallow holes in it, but none of them really penetrated. A few of the bodkins went in far enough to maybe cause a flesh wound, but that's it.
Now here's the thing: they were shooting at a flat plate at 90 degrees. They then turned the plating to 45 degrees or so, a more realistic impact angle. Not a single arrow bit. They all deflected.

[Nukapei]

Back to physics, the Gondorian armor in the films functions like it's made of plastic. In the attack on Osgilliath, the sentry (the film's stunt coordinator in costume, BTW) is shot by an orc short recurve bow at a distance I guess to be around a 150 yards or greater. The arrow goes straight through the most heavily sloped part of his breastplate and knocks him off his feet.
This is patently ludicrous.

Well, the props have to be made of something, and real metal is unrealistic. As for that shot . . . maybe they're special arrows? Or, more likely, maybe it's more PJ-brand physics! ;)

[Neurion]

Well, the props have to be made of something, and real metal is unrealistic. As for that shot . . . maybe they're special arrows? Or, more likely, maybe it's more PJ-brand physics! ;)Well first of all, though the armor for the background extras was plastic, the "Hero" armor and weapons were made the traditional way, in metal, but I digress.

Special arrows? I don't think so.

Considering that a longbow generates a lot more kinetic energy than a shorter one, and that orc bows and the diminuitive arrows they shoot are, according to the film makers, crap compared to Rohirrim, Gondorian or Elven ones, and the fact that the longer the bow is, the longer the arrow can be, and the longer and heavier the projectile is, the more damage it will do, and the fact that even longbow arrows couldn't penetrate plate steel on a good day, and the fact that that Jackson and co. were quite set on bringing as much realism as possible to the films, you start to think that some scenes might have been handled a little better (don't think I'm mad at you, I'm just frustrated about the Gondorians getting downplayed at all possible opportunities).

What really confuses me is that they could have just as easily had a ranger for the sentry instead of an armored soldier, thereby avoiding this mess. For some inexplicable reason, they seem to have just let control slip on RotK.

Finally, just to sum up, I know that "suspension of disbelief" is required, but that only goes so far. I can believe Legolas sliding down a staircase on shield (much as it irks me), or Aragorn surviving that fall off the cliff. I can even accept Sauron sending dozens flying with his sorcery-bound mace. What I cannot accept is a situation that all previous examples and research tell me is impossible as it is presented.