Oh No, Not Again!

[Neithan]

Yes, just when you thought you were finally done with it, it keeps creeping back. I am speaking, of course, about the dreaded subject of Tom Bombadil (what? you were expecting Balrog wings?). Now, before I get started I should tell you that if you are sick of this topic and want nothing to do with it, then just don't participate. There is no need to post telling us how much you don't want to hear about it. It is equally unnecessary to say that Tolkien meant for Tom to be an enigma, I know, and I still want to discuss him.
Being relatively new to this forum I haven't had a chance to discuss Tom yet but I sifted through quite a few long threads (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5901), some of which were mostly nonsense :confused:. To my frustration much of what I had wanted to say had already been said :mad:, especially by burrahobbit (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=94), however I think I can still add something of my own.
To business then. First let us consider this quote
He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. (my italics)
The point that is usually made from this quote is that he was in the world before the Ainur and it is a valid point, but I will go further. He says Outside, clearly contrasting it to himself. You do not say that someone came from Outside (with a capital O) if you did too. My point here is that Tom is not an Eala of any kind. There is other evidence that he is not an Ainu (Vala, Maia, or otherwise), for example Tom said that he is "no weather master" but we know that the Valar and Maiar could control the weather. Unlike the Ainur who came "from Outside", Tom belonged in Arda. Some have said that he was the incarnation of Arda itself but if that were the case he would have been changed when the Ainur came and shaped the world. When Arda was marred by Melkor he would have been also, but he was not. I believe that Tom was created with the world, with Eru's word rather than with the Music.
The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Tom Bombadil is the Master.
Tom owns nothing and cares nothing for possesions but he is the Master. In The Adventures of Tom Bombadil Tom shows his mastery of water, plants, animals, and even the Barrow Wights. In the night all of these things try to scare him with "nightly noises" but he is fearless.
All of these things try to use fear, especially the Barrow Wight. In FotR the Hobbits are bothered by the nightly noises. Merry and Pippin are effected by the river and Old Man Willow but Sam is uneffected and Frodo has a dream of another sort. This, I think, is significant but I will not get into it here. Tom was not part of the Music of the Ainur, he is completely seperate from it as nothing else in the world is. Therefore he has no cares and consequently no fears, he does not care about the ring for the same reason that he has no fear, because all those things that were foretold by the Music have nothing to do with him. This is also the reason that the ring has no power over him.
A note on Tom's power, none can resist the power of his words, what he says inevitabley happens. All of the inhabitants of the forest listened to him, the rain would not get him wet when he warded it off, and Frodo even handed over the ring to him.
Tom is also a reminder to us not to take ourselves too seriously.
Notice that I have not mentioned Goldberry, I hope to create a thread for her as well sometime soon but for now lets focus on Tom.

[Boromir88]

I am never tired of talking about this guy. ;) Here's my take. It's fair to say that Bombadil is not Eru, since Eru never set foot on Middle-earth. Also, he can't be Eru, because Glorfindel suggests that Bombadil could be beaten. Assuming Tolkien sticks with religion, that God is the most powerful, and can't be beaten. My viewing is that Bombadil is Tolkien. Or Tolkien writing himself into the story. Consider some of these points...

He doesn't add too much to the story. He gives the hobbits history mostly, saying there were people before hobbits in the Shire, and there were people after. It's also interesting that he was there "for the first rain drop," he was there before the mountains, and the forests, and the rivers.

He is referred to as "master."

He has no cares for the ring, or any other problems outside of his realm. He's not tempted by the ring (one of the very few who are tempted, I'm assuming Eru wouldn't be tempted either). He has no care for the story that's unfolding in Middle-earth, still Bombadil does in his own way help out the hobbits. Gets them away from Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wright. But, as for the quest, and for the fate of Middle-earth he has no care.

I think it's more of Tolkien putting his own thoughts, his own feelings in Bombadil. We know returning from the war Tolkien was distraught. He thought he was going to war to make England a better place, or the world a better place, but when he returned he found out things were only worse. Tolkien is also a satiric writer, Farmer Giles of Ham for instance, and he adds Boromir and the Hobbits with a bit of satire. Seeing Tolkien's feelings after the war, and looking at Bombadil how he has no care. Plus Bombadil is like a historian, he knows of things before even the mountains and etc. Seeing that, I think Tolkien is putting his own feelings into Bombadil, and therefor it's Tolkien writing himself into the story. Whether Tolkien did this intentionally, or even did it at all, is arguable, but that's my reading of it.

Atleast that's my view, of course with Bombadil, I will expect to hear some debate.

[Neithan]

Boromir, you reminded me of something that I had meant to put into my first post and forgot. Though I do not own the Letters myself, I came across this quote in one of the other Bombadil threads.
I do not mean him to be an allegory – or I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name – but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the inquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture
This is at least one characteristic that Tolkien possesed that came out in Tom, and it is also the thing I love most about Tolkien's works. It is that same love of knowledge (whether it is useful or not) that drives me to study his lanquages and to discuss and ask questions about his mythology.
Your explanation of Tom being Tolkien, though probably true, is not enough for me. I feel the need to make him fit into Tolkien's mythology even though he was not really intended to fit. To learn those things about Middle Earth that not even Tolkien knew, so to speak.

[Encaitare]

Aw, by the title I thought this was a Hitchhiker's Guide thread! ;) :p

Some good thoughts here, though.

[littlemanpoet]

I guess I'm satisfied with the idea that Tom is master of his little realm, that he is the place itself, in person (notice that I didn't say "personified"). I'm thinking that Tom and Goldberry are elemental persons. I do not say "spirits", as that raises more issues than it solves; same as "beings". He is the place, she is the riverdaughter. He has been there as long as there has been an Arda. She has been there as long as there has been a river.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

two words: "DON'T PANIC!" (at least until this May, when a certain movie is due out).
--------------------------------------

One curious bit about Tom, which really argues against him being a Vala
or Eru is the observation about getting Tom to take the ring at The Council of Elrond (interestingly, made by Glorfindel, not Elrond or Gandalf):
...even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fail, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.
(Interesting, the capital letters in Last, First, and Night.

The theory of him being JRRT is interesting, and makes some sense, at least
as a partial answer.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

The problem with the problem of Bombadill, is that if one were to go back in time to ask Professor T about this, would he give a strait answer? Firstly, if he was supposed to be J.R.R himself, I doubt he would admit it. Secondly, No one knew about the Silmarillion and the Vallar then, so he would probably not explain them to you. Thirdly, He being very catholic, would probably not tell you if Tom was supposed to be Eru, if, that is, you take Eru to be an interpretation of God... and also because you're not supposed to know about Eru... Or, it having to be at least 12 years after his beginning of righting, he might not remember his original explanation... Tolkien was, contrary to popular belief, Only Human.

[littlemanpoet]

"DON'T PANIC!" (at least until this May, when a certain movie is due out).

What movie?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Oh dear, that movie, I believe would be the Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy. I, personally will not be looking forward to it. As a fan of the Books and radio series, it looks to me to be quite a grotesque malformation of the original story and characters.

I would ramble on about how I don’t like who they’ve chosen to play whom and why they should not do certain things. I'll just say I feel that most of the comedy will be lost.

Back on topic;

My personal opinion of Bombadill is that he was probably not a Vallar. If i recall, the valar came to Ea after it had been, created. Unless Tom is lying, which I doubt, if he was a valar he could not have been there before the dark lord came from the out side, if he is referring to Morgoth. Of course, I will probably be proven to the contrary, and I welcome any one who wishes to do so.

[Neithan]

There are other reasons he could not be a Vala. For one, none of the Valar have the same personallity. Also the Valar, at this time, would not interfere with Middle Earth directly, they sent the Istari and even they had restrictions, and I don't think any of the Valar are going to spend so much of their time there. He could also not be a Maia because "he is his own master" and the Maiar serve the Valar. I gave some reasons above why he could not be an Ainu of any kind, but I will add that Frodo said that the joy in Bombadil's house was like the joy of the Elves but "nearer to the mortal heart". Somehow I think that the Ainur would be even further from the mortal heart.