The Great Darkness

[Imbefana]

My question I suppose is one of practicality for Melkor and Sauron. Suppose Sauron won the War of the Ring, recovered the One and brought the land into a second darkness. Assuming he had the power to block out all light of the Sun, Moon, and stars, how could his dominion live on? Light is essential at the very least for plant life (necessary for fuel, food, and building materials, not to mention ecosystems and food chains). I think I remember reading somewhere Sauron's hordes in Mordor were fed by distant lands (of men?) to the far east and south.

So, if he had complete dominion, would he give the necessary sunlight to certain lands so all his orcs would not die of starvation, or end up consuming each other?

I know light is a symbol of good, but is it somehow not necessary in Middle Earth for the survival of the forces of evil? Evil must first come from morphing the good.

This is most likely is a rather silly question, but I was just wondering how exactly it would work, seeing how Melkor accomplished an extremely powerful domain during the first Great Darkness.

Or perhaps I should think of it as unanswerable and accept it as part of Tolkien's universe?

Thanks a bunch!

[Kuruharan]

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date his Master had set for it
-The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

I think that indicates Sauron was using the darkness as a tool for the war. I don’t think he intended to shroud everything in Middle earth with perpetual physical darkness.

Remember that much of the landscape of Mordor that we see was determined by being next to an active volcano. That will have a detrimental impact on most anything.

[Neithan]

I think that Gandalf was speaking metaphorically when he said that Sauron would "cover the land in a second darkness". Even so you bring up an interesting question, what did the Elves of Middle Earth eat before the coming of the sun and moon? Starlight is not generally enough for plants to grow. I seem to remember something about Yavanna puting the plants in some kind of stasis too, but I don't have time to look it up right now.

[Imbefana]

Wow, I wasn't expecting replies so quickly, and thanks for responding.

I guess it would be true that Gandalf (I remember him saying it in the movie, I'm not sure if it's in the book) meant only that Sauron would have control over all Middle Earth, not that dark clouds would cover all the lands. But the 'second' part does elude to the Great Darkness with Melkor after he destroyed the Trees and before the Moon and Sun were made. I suppose the way I interpreted it was Sauron, with the power of the Ring, would try and recreate what his master accomplished before: a true literal darkness over Middle Earth.

But if I'm wrong (which is probably more likely), then how did Melkor manage it?

[Neithan]

Gandalf could be comparing the metaphorical darkness of Sauron's reign to the metephorical darkness of Morgoth's reign. However, it is not unlikely that Sauron would try to darken the world (probably with clouds) to make it more like his own lands and better for his servants.

Morgoth only had to tip over those lanterns to make Middle Earth dark. After that Valinor had light but ME did not. Eventually, with the help of Ungoliant, he destroyed the two trees and darkened Valinor. It was at this time that the sun and moon were created to light all the world. I doubt even Morgoth would be able to destroy the sun (in fact, didn't he try once?), let alone Sauron.

[Kuruharan]

sun (in fact, didn't he try once?),

Moon, actually.

[Imbefana]

Sorry about that historical mix-up. :o I don't have my Silmarillion or HoME handy. Thanks so much for your input.

Even so you bring up an interesting question, what did the Elves of Middle Earth eat before the coming of the sun and moon? Starlight is not generally enough for plants to grow. I seem to remember something about Yavanna puting the plants in some kind of stasis too, but I don't have time to look it up right now.

Weren't the seven dwarves awakened before the Sun and Moon were created? It is an interesting question of how both races sustained themselves until then.

Do you mean Yavanna put plants into a stasis after the lamps were destroyed?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

According to my sometimes sketchy internet reference tools, during the years of the Lamps only trees grew "Yet no birds or flowers had sung or bloomed for these things were still awaiting their time in the bosom of Yavanna", but the trees must have continued growing during the years of the trees, even when there was little light in the eastern parts of Arda, because when the elves awoke at Cuivienen they were in the woods. Also, if Orome was out hunting there must have been sufficient plant life to support animals.

Buy a nice new copy of Silm. is at the top of today's To Do List, as my younger brother (wspauldo12) absconded with my first copy and has now lost it.
:rolleyes: After that I can get more exact quotes on the subject.

Sophia

[Neithan]

Also, if Orome was out hunting there must have been sufficient plant life to support animals.
True. But the question is, how is that possible with no sun?
Do you mean Yavanna put plants into a stasis after the lamps were destroyed?
My memory of this is very fuzzy, but I seem to remember that, at least in one version of the story, Yavanna put a sleep on all of her plants in ME because they could no longer get light, and that they woke up when light touched them again. So to answer your question, yes.

[Formendacil]

With regards to Sauron, I have to go with the consensus, and chime in with saying that Sauron's "Second Darkness" would have been a figurative term.

With Morgoth, however, obliterating light and therefore totally destroying everything was more or less his goal. Looking at the essays on Melkor in HoME, Volume X, Morgoth's Ring, you'll see that Morgoth was set on a path that unthwarted would have led to total annihilation of first all good things, then his own servants, and then the world itself, in so far as he was able.

In the same context though, it says that Sauron was not quite so depraved. Sauron did not object to the mere existence of the world (as Melkor did), so long as he could do what he wanted with it.

I would apply the same logic to the sun and moon, had Sauron succeeded in taking over middle-earth. He would not have objected to their live-giving properties, so long as all the life they gave came under his dominion.

[Ainaserkewen]

What's all this about metaphorical darkness? I believe that Sauron fully intended to literally cover the lands in darkness. Why? Because 1) It's what Morgoth would have wanted because it stops life (life of enemies anyway), 2) It would be dark and evil-like. How would he do it? Well, The sun and the moon are essentially lights that are guarded by gods. Sauron, had he his old strength could have taken them down. Then there are the stars to deal with too.

Don't forget Imbefana, the elves were born and lived in darkness for a long time. Even Elves need to eat. I suppose the stars were strong enough to have the trees produce fruit or something.

Weren't the seven dwarves awakened before the Sun and Moon were created? It is an interesting question of how both races sustained themselves until then. It doesn't say when about the dwarves actually came into existance. They were created before the awakening of the Children of Eru, but were sent to sleep until the awakening. So we can assume that Dwarves awoke sometime after the elves in some remote mountain and were survived by their maker.

[Kuruharan]

What's all this about metaphorical darkness? I believe that Sauron fully intended to literally cover the lands in darkness. Why? Because 1) It's what Morgoth would have wanted because it stops life (life of enemies anyway), 2) It would be dark and evil-like. How would he do it? Well, The sun and the moon are essentially lights that are guarded by gods. Sauron, had he his old strength could have taken them down. Then there are the stars to deal with too.

I’m afraid not. Aside from the quotation I cited above that indicates Sauron intended to dissipate his ash clouds…

) It's what Morgoth would have wanted because it stops life

Formendacil has already answered this. Sauron was not entirely like Morgoth. He wanted domination, not destruction.

It would be dark and evil-like.

Call me strange, but I’m not entirely sure Sauron saw himself in this light (or dark, if you will). I think Sauron would do things that would further his ability to control everything (which is evil enough) but he strikes me as being dreadfully practical in his own fashion and not too likely to knowingly do things that would work against his ability to dominate. Choking off the light and causing all his slaves to die is going to leave him with only the Nazgul to have fun with.

I’m open to discussion on the issue of how Sauron viewed himself, but that is probably a topic for another thread.

How would he do it? The sun and the moon are essentially lights that are guarded by gods. Sauron, had he his old strength could have taken them down. Then there are the stars to deal with too

He could not do that. Morgoth could not do that back in his day and by this point in time Sauron was weaker than Morgoth was when he assaulted the moon. The way to cut off the light would be to have Mount Doom (and any other handy volcanoes) spew forth enough ash to cover the world.

[Ainaserkewen]

Hmm, Kuruharan, seems I've misplaced some of my ideas, eh?

Morgoth wanted domination. He believed that the lands of Middle-Earth should be his and his alone because he participated in their making the most. He destroyed the creations of the other Valar because of jealously and probably pride.

Sauron was not competing with his peers, he surpased them not in power but in ingenuity. He used the vast ressources of Elves and Men to conquer, for example the Ring. It is my belief that because he was losing his hold on the lands abandoned (so it seemed) by the Valar, his thoughts would have went to most drasic plans then previous. Sauron was challenged by Elves and Men and wiping out light would certainly cripple them. Perhaps that wasn't his plan, but the fear that he could spread with his whispers and silent orders was a good start.

[Kuruharan]

He destroyed the creations of the other Valar because of jealously and probably pride.

You are certainly right about that.

However, I must still agree with Formendacil that Morgoth wanted destruction over and above domination.

Sauron was challenged by Elves and Men and wiping out light would certainly cripple them.

Well, yes...that's why he did it. But the original question was whether he would maintain a perpetual physical darkness and I think that is unlikely.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I don't think that Melkor or Sauron could ever achieve their entire goal.

...the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them;valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it. And yet their labour was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm.

As seen from the above Ainulindale quote, none of the Valar's original and total purposes were ever fully realized, why would the purposes and designs of Melkor or Sauron be any different?

[Petty Dwarf]

Sauron's dominion wasn't built on actual darkness. Confusion, lies, betrayal, and ignorance put the "dark" in the Dark Years. Had the Fourth Age become covered in this "second darkness" the moon and sun would be in no more peril than they were in Sauron's last reign. But Sauron's industrial activities have a pollutant effect, so some actual darkening would go on, and probably did in the Second Age.

As for Morgoth attacking a celestial body, there is also the powerful version in Myths Transformed where he rapes Árië/Arien, spoiling the sun. In that one, a Round World version, the Moon is then created to bring light to dark places.

Also in MT, another Round World plot takes place just prior (7 years prior) to the awakening of the Elves. Morgoth creates a darkness over most of Middle-Earth which obliterates moon and stars, and dims day to a dusk at most. Manwë and Varda contest with westward winds, and the clouds are pushed back east, only to return. This goes on like a tug of war for a while, until Manwë unleashes a great wind and rends the veil for longer than usual. The Elves awake to these bright stars, which soon seem to receede into the West as the Cloud returns.