If Beren had not died

[Dûrbelethwen]

I was wondering, what do you think would have happened in the Legenduim if Beren had not been killed when he got the Silmaril from Melkor. If he had lived out his life as a normal person with an Evish wife. What do you think would have happened at the end of his life to himself and Luthien. Do you think that maybe they would have ended up like Idril and Tuor? Or maybe Luthien would have stilled died with him and everything that happened would have stilled happen only in a different way?

[Formendacil]

This is idle speculation, because (thank heaven!!!) Beren's death is a firmly established fact of the canon, not unlike Balrog wings (they are firmly established to not exist. :p )

Of course, idle speculation is always fun, since unlike serious debates (eg. Balrog wings), no one is likely to be offended or insulted or driven into the ground through the crushing grip of reason (still waiting for that to happen to the wingers, though....)

Anyways, my opinion...

I think that Luthien and Beren would have lived together happily, for many years, until Beren passed away from extreme old age (say about 90, the same age as his ancestor Beor).

Luthien, distraught, would have then passed westward to Mandos just as before. She would have sang and pleaded with Mandos, just as before. Then Mandos would offer her a choice, also as before. Her choice would be to live in Valinor with her kin or to be permitted a mortal death like Beren.

So as to be with Beren, Luthien would choose mortal death, and a few years later, Valinor would see its only real, true, lasting mortal death. Which would of course deeply sadden and shock the Valar, and maybe have some bearing on their involvement in Morgoth's defeat.

That's my thoughts, anyway.

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

Balrog wings (they are firmly established to not exist. ) you're fighting a losing battle my friend... :p

Anyways, I agree with Formendacil that when the time came for Beren to die, Luthien would have had to die too, simply because Tolkien based Beren and Luthien upon him and his wife Edith. In the name of beautifully tragic romances, he would've had to make them both die because one cannot live without the other.

[Elemmírë]

From the Silm:

But the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end; for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.

Had Lúthien not become mortal, they would have both probably lived longer (and perhaps they would have stayed in Doriath as well).

The only reason I bring this up is that after the Quest ended, the Fëanorions were unwilling to assault Beren and Lúthien. Remember, it was only after the death of Lúthien that Doriath was attacked.

Of course, after Beren's death, Lúthien might have died of grief anyway and everything come to pass in the same manner, but there's a distinct possibility that a lot would have been different.

[Elrian]

Luthien would choose mortal death, and a few years later, Valinor would see its only real, true, lasting mortal death.[QUOTE]

First maybe, could be that the Hobbits (Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise) and Dwarf (Gimli) also died in the West, as they were granted passage while they yet lived. :smokin:

[Formendacil]

Luthien would choose mortal death, and a few years later, Valinor would see its only real, true, lasting mortal death.[QUOTE]

First maybe, could be that the Hobbits (Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise) and Dwarf (Gimli) also died in the West, as they were granted passage while they yet lived. :smokin:

True. I should have said first, not only, but I suppose in the context of Valinor meaning Valinor, and not including Tol Eressia, I am still right, but it's a very fine distinction, and perhaps a ridiculous one to make.

[Linnahiril Tinnufinwen]

I would just like to get something straight before I am able to have a valid opinion on the subject. Am I to understand that, had Beren not been killed and then brought back to life, it would have affected Luthien's fate? She would not have died a mortal death? Or is this merely speculation also?

[Formendacil]

I would just like to get something straight before I am able to have a valid opinion on the subject. Am I to understand that, had Beren not been killed and then brought back to life, it would have affected Luthien's fate? She would not have died a mortal death? Or is this merely speculation also?

Luthien was not supposed to die a mortal death. As an Elf (or rather, a half-Elf, half-Maia), she was supposed to be immortal.

However, when Beren died, she "died" in the sense that the Elves do (think of Miriel) and went to Mandos. There, she pleaded her case with Mandos, begging him to bring Beren back to life. Touched, for the only time in his existence, Mandos gave her a choice. She could be reincarnated, in the manner of all the Elves, and live out a blissful life in Valinor with her Maiar and Eldar kin, or she and Beren would both be sent back to life in middle-earth, but it would be a mortal life in the manner of Men, and there would be no guarantees that their lives would be long or happy.

Luthien chose the second choice, and she and Beren returned to life in middle-earth, and there lived happily for many years, before dying once and for all, leaving the circles of the world completely.

[yavanna II]

[QUOTE]/
I was wondering, what do you think would have happened in the Legenduim if Beren had not been killed when he got the Silmaril from Melkor. If he had lived out his life as a normal person with an Evish wife. What do you think would have happened at the end of his life to himself and Luthien. Do you think that maybe they would have ended up like Idril and Tuor? Or maybe Luthien would have stilled died with him and everything that happened would have stilled happen only in a different way?/[QUOTE]

tHEN the whole history of Beleriand could be altered.

Luthien and Beren will live at Doriath with the Sil, no Feanorean or Dwarf would assail em, Thingol won't die, Melian will stay and the Girdle thing will remain, protecting Doriath. Bern will die a natural death at a ripe old age, but Luthien won't follow cos her mom, dad, and son're still there. The Sil will remain hidden. All Elf-kingdoms would fall and their remnants will flee to Doriath, and therefore increase its military potential. Sooner or later Morgy will attack them and destroy the Elves. Earendil would not reach Valinor cos the Sil's still there, and he will end up lost. The Valar would not end up in time to save ME, and Morgy will reign. :(

[Neithan]

Which brings up another question. Was Morgoth known to his close friends and advisors as "Morgy"? :p I can imagine what would happen to Sauron if he tried calling him that.

[yavanna II]

I refer to Morgoth as "Morgy" cos I'm too lazy to type... and add the fact that I wasn't really supposed to go here because I am studying my Chem. :(

Oh. And "Chem" is short for Chemistry. :p

[burrahobbit]

I don't see the point of this question, and I don't think any of you above me do either. It wouldn't have made any difference if Beren had not died, because he came back. If Beren had not died and Luthien not willed herself to die, then Beren and Luthian would have moved away to the same part of the world that they moved to anyway, and then beren would grow old and die just like he did anyway, and Luthien would have willed herself to die just like she did the first time anyway.

Speculation is all fine and dandy, but this is one point where it just doesn't make any difference.

Also, Beren didn't die when he got the Silmaril from Morgoth. He made it through that bit just fine.