If they still had Gandalf...

[AragornII]

How do you think the story would have been different if Gandalf had not fallen at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum? :eek:

For one thing, I don't think that Boromir would have died. Gandalf would have been there to prevent Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying. But, then he wouldn't have become the White Wizard, and he, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli wouldn't have been at Helm's Deep. He probably would have been with Frodo, which would have changed that whole aspect of the story. And Aragorn might have gone with Boromir to Minas Tirith and then Denethor might not have gone crazy and... Whew! There's a lot. So I guess that Gandalf falling was important to how the story turned out.

What do you guys think?

[Formendacil]

The entire story would have been changed almost entirely... That's a little too much for me to wrap my mind around and speculate on, so I'll just look at one little part of it.

I've always wondered how Gandalf intended to get into Mordor. Obviously not by the Morannon, and just as obviously not by the way of Cirith Ungol. Therefore, it must have been by some other way. Personally, I've always been rather curious as to these other ways, for surely there is more than one.

Another thing I wonder about is how much of Fellowship would have gone on until the end. I don't think Gandalf would have sent Frodo and Sam alone, although in all likelihood he would not have gone himself. My personal conjecture is that Boromir and Aragorn would have gone on towards Gondor (possibly being diverted towards Rohan, and so saving that land), and that Legolas and Gimli would have been sent with Frodo and Sam to Mordor (with instructions on how to find their way in).

That leaves Gandalf, Merry, and Pippin. They might have gone with Boromir and Aragorn, or they might have gone elsewhere. I personally fancy elsewhere, but if not Minas Tirith, then where? Perhaps THEY would have gone to Rohan, while Aragorn and Boromir went to Minas Tirith. Except that Aragorn would not have been able to fulfill the Prophecy...

Of course, this is all idle speculation, but it IS fascinating. And one has to wonder, what would have happened to Saruman without Gandalf the White? I can see Gandalf the Grey having about the same skill against the Nazgul and the orks as Gandalf the White, but I cannot see Gandalf the Grey breaking the staff of Saruman. He wouldn't have had the authority. Yes, there are many questions....

[Lolidir]

i have found myself wondering this same thing as well as others. and i have been involved in some other "what if" threads. and one thing that i have been told and have given thought to is the fact that everything happpens for a reason, and everything has a purpose. even the tinyest detail has some sort of importance.

for something as big as Gandlaf dying to be changed would change the entire story. you wouldnt have Gandalf the white. the fellowship would still be together. its hard to say where the story would go because of how huge the change would be but i personally think as for Rohan it would have probably been defeated in Edoras and then at the battle of Pelanor Fields they wouldnt have been able to help, and they played a big part in that. the witch king might not have been defeated as a result of Eowyn not being there. as for Aragorn and Boromir, they would have prolly continued to Minas Tirith and gone to help hold Osgiliath and maybe over run since Gandalf wouldnt have been there to drive away the Nazgul because he was away in Mordor with Frodo. the Hobbits and Gandalf would have continued to Mordor and i have no idea how they would have gone because Gandalf prolly would have gone a totally different way. they prolly wouldnt have found Gollum and then who knows who knows if the ring would even be destroyed then, because it was an accident that it even happened in the first place. as for Legolas and Gimli its hard to say where they would have gone because if they didnt have to rescue Merry and Pippin they prolly wouldnt have gotten so close with Aragorn and might not have been willing to follow him to death.

so really its hard to say anything other than the story would be totally different.
sorry this is so long but i got started and once that heppens its hard to get me to stop. ;)

[Ruoutorin]

Not to be controversial, but I don't thing the story would have changed much at all. Middle Earth seems to revolve around fate and destiny and there are characters in Middle Earth that have already seen the general outcomes of events . For instance, it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing. Prophacies by qualified characters in ME (such as elves) can pretty much be taken as gospel. So, IMO, the whole story is already pre-ordained. If Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, I believe that minor details may have been altered slightly, but big events such as the death of Boromir would have still taken place because it is that character's destiny to die. :D

[aelithes]

I agree with Ruoutorin that fate has a part to play in what transpires in LOTR, but it's certainly not absolute, nor does Tolkien wish us to think so; he is careful to not make his characters mere puppets to fate.

The most conspicuous and efficacious piece of evidence for this is that Frodo was in fact foreseen to fail (and fail he did) - it was precisely the compounding of various expressions of 'free will', the anti-fate (e.g., the pity of Bilbo, the pity of Frodo, etc.), that resulted in the ring's inadvertent destruction.

But to get back to the topic! Yes, the matter of still having Gandalf is definitely too big to wrap my head around. The repercussions would've been huge. I can only say that in terms of the Fellowship, it probably would have stayed together rather longer than it actually did. But as Galadriel says, the seduction of the ring would have consumed them all, and I am much more uneasy about Frodo's chance of success if he's surrounded by those who feign friendship while harbouring secret (not-so-secret) desires (Boromir, Aragorn, the rest of the Fellowship, inevitably) as opposed to those whom he is openly suspicious of (e.g., Gollum). It's an inexplicable hunch, but I just think the ring would not have made it closer to its goal than Minas Morgul, if that.

[Boromir88]

it was prophesized by Glorfindel that no man could kill the WitchKing.
That is "now man would kill the witch-king," much different then "could."

As for the question, I don't know if much would have changed. If Gandalf goes along, you will still have the uruk attack, which ultimately could end the life of Boromir and the capture of the two hobbits. That means again the fellowship is faced with do they follow Merry and Pippin? If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring WITH Gandalf being there then I think Frodo is along for the ride, because he would have no "desiding force" to have him go to Mordor. Frodo knew what he had to do, he just didn't want to do it, and it took an incident like Boromir falling to madness to get Frodo to realize he had to get out of the Fellowship. If Boromir doesn't fall to the ring, then Frodo doesn't go to Mordor, he'll go with the company. With that being said. Who's to say if Gandalf is there that the same thing won't happen?

The question still will remain, Boromir wants to go to Minas Tirith, Frodo doesn't. I could see Gandalf and Aragorn in letting Frodo be the deciding factor in which way to go. So, Frodo wonders off in the wild, Boromir goes to try to sway him towards Minas Tirith, goes crazy on Frodo, Frodo realizes he has to get away, so he does. Boromir comes back says he lost Frodo, they drastically go searching for him, Boromir stumbles upon Merry and Pippin (as well as a bunch of orcs), dies, Merry and Pippin captured. :breathes:

[The Saucepan Man]

I wonder if Gandalf could have received his power-up without dying. Given that the primary reason for it was Saruman's treachery and that it came direct from Eru, I don't see why not ...

[AragornII]

If Gandalf had been with Frodo, how would they have gotten to Mt. Doom once inside Mordor? I know someone said that Gandalf probably had a different route, but once they were in, weren't like 10,000 orcs between them and Mt. Doom? If Aragorn and Co. hadn't distracted the Eye of Sauron at the Morannon and drew all the orcs away, Frodo and Sam might not have made it through.
Someone might have said this but if Aragorn hadn't gone to Minas Tirith by way of Rohan, he wouldn't have brought the Army of the Dead with him to Pelargir to fight the Corsairs. The Corsairs would have come to Minas Tirith and there would have been no hope. This is why Aragorn couldn't have gone to the Black Gate.

[Glirdan]

This is a matter that I've myself have been trying to figure out. Indeed, this is a mojor topic and lots of things would probably have been changed.

In my opinion, I think that Gandalf would probably have sent Pippin with Frodo and Sam and he would've given them directions. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would've went to Rohan and Boromir (see as Gandalf would have been there to stop Frodo from leaving and Boromir from dying) and Merry would've gone to Minas Tirith. Also, seeing as Glorfindel prophicised that "no man would kill the witch king", I think Eowyn would still have gone to Minas Tirith. As for the breaking of Saruman's staff breaking, I think Gandalf would still have enough power to break it and Theoden would probably still have died. Another thing, if Boromir did go back to Minas Tirith, Denethor would not have gone crazy.

But like I said, this stuff is only my opinion. Hope no gets offended.

Glirdy :D

[AragornII]

Yeah, but if Gandalf had gone to Minas Tirith with Boromir and Merry, he wouldn't have brought Eomer to Helm's Deep, and then Rohan would have been overrun and not come to the aid of Minas Tirith, and then Minas Tirith would have been overrun.
I'm curious as to why Gandalf would choose Pippin to go with Frodo and Sam and not Merry, seeing as how Merry is seen as the more sensible of the two. I would think that Gandalf would have sent Merry into Mordor and brought Pippin with him.

[Glirdan]

Excellent point Aragorn. I never really thought of it that way. Merry is the more sensible one out of the two, but he was the one who stabbed The King of the Wraiths in the back, which THEN allowed Eowyn to kill the Wraith. As for Gandalf going to Rohan instead, I'll agree with you on that.

Glirdy :smokin:

[alatar]

To reverse thread for a moment, note that Gandalf had to 'leave' the Fellowship. Just as in the Hobbit where Bilbo suddenly finds himself bereft of Gandalf's guidance outside of Mirkwood, Frodo must lose the Wizard's help and so determine his own course. It's even stated in the FOTR that 'even if Gandalf were here, the decision would still rest with Frodo' (or something).

If Gandalf were to shepherd the ring and bearer to the Crack, what effort would it have been for Frodo knowing that the Wizard was always there to help - even if he never used the help. Frodo needed to think that he was on his own, and only reluctantly does he take Sam along with him - though Sam is still technically always following Frodo's lead.

Anyway, if Gandalf would have escaped the Bridge fall, not sure how the story would have progressed. Would he have experienced another fortunate accident? Assuming that the Fellowship hang out at Lothlorien for a while then continue down the Anduin (and that's already a big assumption), I assume that he would have accompanied Frodo to Mordor along with Sam.

Merry and Pippin would have protested (as in Rivendell), but either they would be orc luggage or sent off with the 'going to Gondor' group (note that the orcs make sure that this group goes to Rohan instead).

Aragorn, feeling no need to help Frodo as Gandalf was there, would go to Gondor with Boromir. Assume that Boromir was still itching with Ring-lust, he may have done the same thing as in the book, and ends up floating in a boat.

Gimli and Legolas would have followed Aragorn.

So assume that the FOTR are sitting around the fire, waiting for Frodo to decide whether he will go East or West. Boromir does his thing, and we have events just as in the book with the exception of Gandalf telling Aragorn to 'go after the hobbits while Sam and I look for Frodo.'

That would allow for the book to continue along the same lines for the Three Hunters, the Rag Tag and the Steward's Number 1 son.

Now you could have Gandalf fighting a rear guard action ("They brought a Roggie!") while pushing Frodo and Sam to escape across the River ("Fly, you fools!"). If he powers up, then he could go and help the Rohirrim against Saruman as Frodo is no longer in sight. This allows for Gollum to be the guide.

Or Gandalf, Frodo and Sam make it across and somewhere on the trip to the Crack Gandalf sells himself to aid Frodo's journey (Shelob, etc). Or, at the very end, Frodo puts on the Ring and subdues Gandalf. We could still have Gollum pursuit, and he could still definger Frodo.

This still leaves the problem of Saruman. Maybe Aragorn could use his healing abilities to exorcise Theoden. Treebeard contributes help without Wizard request, and in the Voice of Saruman you could substitute Aragorn for Gandalf (Strider receives the Elfstone from Galadriel that wards against babbling Maia?). Saruman doesn't get destaffed until after the war, yet is shut up in Orthanc impotent during (we see how useful his staff was during the Ent attack).

Anyway, that's my spin. Still think that it was essential to the story to lose Gandalf.

[Glirdan]

You know, I really like that thought alatar. Very interseting, probably the best thought out thing I've heard all day!!!!!!!! :) Seriously!! But what about your thoughts with Theoden dying and Ewoyn killing the King Wraith?

Glirdy

[alatar]

But what about your thoughts with Theoden dying and Ewoyn killing the King Wraith?

Thanks, I appreciate your kind words. Not sure exactly what your question means though. Theoden dying and Eowyn slaying WK in regards to what?

[bookworm]

here's an interesting thought (not sure how logical it is tho):

what if b/c gandalf didn't die (and so didn't kill the balrog) the balrog came and destroyed lothlorien (and the fellowship)? the orcs came thru, and the elves defeated them, but what if they had a balrog with them? i don't think even galadriel could stand up to that

[Glirdan]

That's anegative thought bookworm, (no offense) but a really interesting theory. As to your question alatar, what I mean is in your really long post, you failed to mention what you thought of Ewoyn killing the WK and Theoden dying by the WK. I would like to know what happens to them in your theory.

Glirdy :smokin:

[AragornII]

Also, alatar, if Gandalf had sent Aragorn to go after the hobbits while he and Sam go for Frodo, how does Boromir still die? Wouldn't either Aragorn die with him (and so ending the return of the king theme) or Boromir lives and he and Aragorn defeat the Orcs? Thne once again, nobody would help Rohan and they would be gone and Saruman would still be alive and well and then... you know, all that stuff I said before.

[alatar]

bookworm, I would like to see how Galadriel and the Galadhrim would fare against the Balrog. Note that the Balrog was there (possibly sleeping at times) since the War of Wrath. If it had an itching to take on Galadriel, then it had more than enough opportunities to do so, but evidence shows that it did not. On the another thread it was discussed regarding what the Balrog would have done if it had crossed the Bridge - pursue FOTR beyond Moria or halt at the first gate, content with driving the FOTR out.

Also note that Sauron never overthrew Lothlorien, and would need the Ring to be assured of victory against Galadriel.

Glirdy and Aragorn II: Aragorn need not die with Boromir, as he did not in the original story. Assume that Boromir comes back after his fight with Frodo, and when everyone goes crazy, Aragorn and Boromir again split. One dies, the other gets to go to Rohan.

Again assume somehow Aragorn can replace Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. Theoden/Eomer/Eowyn/Merry (and now Pippin) head for Minas Tirith while Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas do the same via Paths of the Dead.

One might think that the story could change in that Pippin is now a knight of Rohan and somehow like Merry accompanies the Rohirrim on their journey. As he then would not be a servant of Denethor (and Gandalf's with Frodo), we wouldn't get to peak in on what the Steward was doing.

At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Merry and Pippin could aid Eowyn against the Witch King (assume that as he was going to enter the city the horns blow, and he goes off to fight the Rohirrim irregardless of Gandalf's presence - as some posters believe). This, however, would mean that we would lose Faramir - no one covers his retreat, but even if he survives that his dad burns him alive - which is bad for Eowyn unless she then took a liking for Imrahil.

Or...

Gandalf, when traveling with Frodo and Sam, sees the Witch King leave Minas Morgul, tells Frodo that he is needed elsewhere, and so proceeds the Army of Morgul Vale to Gondor. He could still save Faramir's retreat, face off against the WK at the Gate, but without Pippin to stop him, he would pursue the WK, possibly saving Theoden but Faramir gets cooked by his father.

Unless...Beregond, in a completely nutty moment, leaves his post and gets word to Gandalf, who then saves Faramir.

And as for Gollum - as in Moria, he is going to pursue the Ring wherever it goes, whether overtly or covertly, and so irregardless of Gandalf, Gollum will be there at the end.

This is getting so speculative that my brain is starting to ache... ;)

[AragornII]

OK, assuming that they do the same arrangement that they did in the books, Aragorn and Sam go after Frodo, Legolas and Gimli go after Merry and Pippin, and Boromir goes for Merry and Pippin too, who would Gandalf go with? I would assume that he and Sam would go for Frodo, leaving Aragorn free to hunt for Merry and Pippin. So, if Aragorn decides to go alone, he still has a better chance of saving Boromir. Let's just say that Boromir has a better chance of living if Gandalf is there.

alatar, I don't think that Aragorn could have filled Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. He doesn't have the fast horse that can bring Eomer in time. He was essential in being at the actual battle, and couldn't have filled Gandalf's place as Eomer(or Erkenbrand)-bringer.

Another point... if Gandalf hadn't been in the forest to tell Treebeard that Merry and Pippin were hobbits what would have happened to them? They might have been killed, and then Saruman is still out there because Merry and Pippin never roused the Ents to attack Isengard. What would the consequences been of letting Saruman live? Possibly a revival of Isengard and just Helm's Deep later in the story.

[alatar]

Let's just say that Boromir has a better chance of living if Gandalf is there.

Agreed. However, maybe Gandalf would have seen Boromir's heart, and so tried to separate him from the temptation of the Ring even earlier. Maybe Gandalf, Sam and Frodo break the Fellowship in Lothlorien?

alatar, I don't think that Aragorn could have filled Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. He doesn't have the fast horse that can bring Eomer in time. He was essential in being at the actual battle, and couldn't have filled Gandalf's place as Eomer(or Erkenbrand)-bringer.

Again I would have to agree. Assume that I'm not 'in' the story but the author, then I could make it all work.

Another point... if Gandalf hadn't been in the forest to tell Treebeard that Merry and Pippin were hobbits what would have happened to them? They might have been killed, and then Saruman is still out there because Merry and Pippin never roused the Ents to attack Isengard. What would the consequences been of letting Saruman live? Possibly a revival of Isengard and just Helm's Deep later in the story.

Assume that Treebeard acts a little less hasty - and I think that you're confusing the movie with the books (where are we anyway? ;) ). If memory serves, Treebeard sees Gandalf the White but does not speak with him, and so Treebeard makes his own judgment regarding the Hobbits. Again, without Gandalf, assume that Saruman is locked in Orthanc and Treebeard is at the door. If no one (i.e. Gandalf, Aragorn, etc) shows up after Isengard is flooded, then there's no Palantir for Aragorn, but except for Saruman communicating with Sauron, that part of the story doesn't change that much.

Isn't life better with Gandalf 'dying' on the Bridge?

You make valid points, and I appreciate your questions - I haven't worked this hard at spinning a tale since I had to explain to my parents why I was out all night!

[Glirdan]

You're probably right alatar, it would be better if Gandalf would have 'died' at the bridge, but it's cool just to speculate about this. And your right again, I haven't had to think this hard about stuff since I was in Science class last year!!!!!!!!

Glirdy

[alatar]

You're probably right alatar, it would be better if Gandalf would have 'died' at the bridge, but it's cool just to speculate about this.

Agreed, but not sure how much 'freedom' I have or should restrict myself to in regards to the story ("...and then they met the Tie-Dyed Wizard...").


And your right again, I haven't had to think this hard about stuff since I was in Science class last year!!!!!!!!

Cool on science. Learn how to be skeptical - how to test assumptions/hypotheses - as it will serve you well. :)

[Glirdan]

Thanks for the advice alatar! I'll take it!!! Tie dyed Wizard!! That's HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just hope other people have thoughts about this thread....

Glirdy

[AragornII]

I see what you mean Glirdan. It seems that there have been about three of us in this discussion. Would be nice to hear some new opinions(not that your's are bad).
Actually, alatar, I agree with you. I guess I did get the books mixed up with the movies. Sorry about that. :)

[Glirdan]

You know Aragorn, this is quite funny beecause there really IS just the three of us, and it's getting really annoying. Wish more people would join.

Glirdy

[wilwarin538]

You want other oppinions well.... I tried, but my computer froze and my nice long paragraph of an oppinion was lost. :( So know I must begin again.

I think everything would be very messed up if they still had Gandalf. Mostly bacause of Merry and Pipin's kidnapping. I believe Gandalf would have stopped it from happening, So Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would have probably gone to Gondor with Boro(who Gandalf saved) and Merry and Pippin would never have seen Treebeard, te Ents wouldn't have gotten involved, most likely Gandalf woudn't have had the power to over power Saruman and Theoden would have gotten hes entire country defeated. All would have been lost.

But that might just be me. ;)

~*Wilwa*~

P.S. Oh yes, and just imagine what kind of havic the Balrog(winged of course :p ) would have caused if Gandalf hadn't defeated him.

[Glirdan]

YAYAYAYAY!!!!!!!! OTHER PEOPLE JOINED!!!!!!!! Very nice opion Wilwa (laugh out loud) I really like your opinion AND your probably right.

Glirdy
P.S. Need your help tomorow with homework. :D

[AragornII]

Ah, wilwarin538, who says the Balrog follows them out? He might just give up when they leave the mountain. Also, that doorway that they exit out of looked pretty small, but that can be fixed easily, especially by a Balrog Actually, come to think of it, that would be fairly interesting. But I think that alatar disussed that earlier in the thread. Good point though ;) .

[alatar]

Ah, wilwarin538, who says the Balrog follows them out? He might just give up when they leave the mountain. Also, that doorway that they exit out of looked pretty small, but that can be fixed easily, especially by a Balrog Actually, come to think of it, that would be fairly interesting. But I think that alatar disussed that earlier in the thread. Good point though ;) .

I actually argued in another post that the Balrog would have pursued the FOTR out of Moria - why would it have stopped? Sunlight would not have hindered it, and as Gandalf (another Maia) torqued him off, I think that the Balrog would have wanted to finish the job - he could have stopped pursuing Gandalf after they brought down Balin's Tomb, but did not.

[Glirdan]

All of your points are valid and very true. But I'd have to say that the Balrog would probably have followed them into Lorien where Gandalf would have had the aid of Galadriel who holds Nenya. So there would have been two elven rings of power, but Lorien would have been scorched to the ground.

[wilwarin538]

Well thats a little depressing Glirdy. I didn't actually mean that the Balrog followed them out just that he may have done something later on. But now that I think of it why would he have stopped??? The Balrog didn't look like the type to give up because the fellowship crossed a little bridge. :rolleyes:

[AragornII]

And what would the Balrog done later on? It's not like people went to Moria after Sauron fell (or did they?), and the only reason the Balrog was even out was because the Fellowship went through Moria. Do you think that the Balrog would have died when the Ring was destroyed? I would think not, since Balrogs were created before the Ring was.
Speaking of Balrogs, have you ever felt that it was Frodo's fault that Gandalf fell? I mean, if Frodo hadn't chosen to go to Moria when they were on Caradhras, then Gandlaf would still be there. That's just something I thought about once :) .

[Lolidir]

it was Frodo's choice but at the same time he is still human. he was freezing on Caradhras and in all that snow, and sicnce it was that or Moria he chose what he thought better than freezing. he didnt know the danger of Moria and Gandalf didnt tell him so with his knowledge and the present situation he made the best choice he could.

my thought is that its Pippin fault that the Balrog and the Goblins were "awakened" so to speak. if he hadnt knocked the head down the well then all that might not have happened. so if Pippin hadnt done that then no Goblins and no Balrog then maybe they could have escaped Moria with out to much of a hastle. but as said before Tolkien wrote the book and everything happened for a reason. to ask the what if question make us think, but we will never know.

[alatar]

And what would the Balrog done later on? It's not like people went to Moria after Sauron fell (or did they?), and the only reason the Balrog was even out was because the Fellowship went through Moria.

Don't think so. The Balrog was awake during the Battle of Nanduhirion (Third Age). Also, I would assume that the Balrog may have helped destroy Balin's party. IMO the Balrog was again awake as Sauron was growing in power again, and was putting out the call to all things evil.

Speaking of Balrogs, have you ever felt that it was Frodo's fault that Gandalf fell? I mean, if Frodo hadn't chosen to go to Moria when they were on Caradhras, then Gandlaf would still be there. That's just something I thought about once :) .

Good thought. However, I think that in the books it's Gandalf who from the very first is the proponent for going through Moria. He follows Aragorn's lead to Caradhras, and when they are defeated by the mountain, Gandalf starts leading them to Moria. After the battle with the wolves, everyone's opinion regarding the Mines begins to change, as they would rather take a chance with the orcs that may or may not exist than with the wolves/wargs that are hunting them.

Aragorn warns Gandalf regarding his personal fate, yet Gandalf still chooses to go. Surely Frodo feels some guilt though.


my thought is that its Pippin fault

In a way it was - Pippin surely felt responsible, and maybe this helped him 'grow up' a little - but on the other hand, Gandalf needed to fall, and so maybe if Pippin did not start things going then someone else would have had to pull the trigger, so to speak.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I remember reading that Gandalf thought going through Moria was a good idea in order to get the Fellowship out of sight of their enemies for awhile - being underground was a good place to hide, or would have been had things not gone wrong. (Problem is, I don't remember and haven't been able to find the source of that information by quickly skimming the various books - I'll add it if and when I do...) So the blame can't be put just on the hobbits.

[alatar]

Problem is, I don't remember and haven't been able to find the source of that information by quickly skimming the various books - I'll add it if and when I do...

Don't have my books, but I think that it's just after they complete 40 days out of Rivendell. Aragorn and Gandalf discuss Moria, and I think that Frodo gets a wiff. Also there might be more just before the wolves attack after Caradhras.

Gandalf, like most of the Fellowship (in the end, even Boromir) were to sacrifice themselves as needed so that Frodo could complete his mission. The object of the 'game' was to keep Frodo alive and out of the hands of the enemy; if they didn't, game over.

Gandalf understood this well.

[wilwarin538]

I remember reading that Gandalf thought going through Moria was a good idea in order to get the Fellowship out of sight of their enemies for awhile - being underground was a good place to hide, or would have been had things not gone wrong. (Problem is, I don't remember and haven't been able to find the source of that information by quickly skimming the various books - I'll add it if and when I do...) So the blame can't be put just on the hobbits.

Don't have my books, but I think that it's just after they complete 40 days out of Rivendell. Aragorn and Gandalf discuss Moria, and I think that Frodo gets a wiff. Also there might be more just before the wolves attack after Caradhras.

I found it!!! It goes like this:

Frodo overheard these words, and understood that Gandalf and Aragorn were continuing some debate that had begun long before. He listened anxiously.

....said Gandalf.'But there is another way, and not by the pass of Caradhras: the dark and secret way that we have spoken of'

'But let us not speak of it again! Not yet. Say nothing to the others, I bed, not until it is plain that there is no other way.'(that was Aragorn talking)

'We must decide before we go further,' answered Gandalf.

'Then let us weigh the matter in our minds, while the others rest and sleep,' said Aragorn.

fellowship pg. 279-280

[Elentari_Elbereth]

This is such an interesting thought, and one I have thought of often.

I know the Fellowship would probably not have split up as it did, and all the other events trailing from it would never have happened.
If gandalf never came to Rohan, Theoden would still be under control of Saruman, and the whole country may have been conqured... And if Aragorn never went through the Paths of the Dead, surely Gondor would be destroyed, and not to mention no help from Rohan.

My thoughts are, if the Fellowship and Gandalf stayed together and proceeded to Mordor, would they have been able to destroy the Ring before Sauron could destroy Man?
Could they travel through Mordor quicker as 9? or would it be more difficult because they could be spotted easier?

Also, would Gandalf still have became White even without dying?

[mormegil]

In reading all of these posts on the speculation we seem to be missing one important factor, and that is does everything happen in the same time frame?

What I mean is this--If Gandalf lived (no balrog following) they wouldn't have stayed in Lothlorien nearly as long as they did (around a month...correct?). They would have stayed to get rest and supplies but wouldn't have needed the healing from the passing of Gandalf. Therefore they would have set out sooner on their quest and that alone can change the whole dynamic.

Would they have actually encountered the orcs that captured Merry and Pippin?
Would Aragorn have come in contact with the Palantir and pit his will against Sauron, thus having Sauron wage war sooner?
If Sauron hadn't rushed his hand Faramir wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor wouldn't have attempted to burn him alive and Gondor wouldn't have been under seige at that time.

It could be asked what would happen if the fellowship had left Lothlorien earlier and were successful in destroying the ring (regardless of who actually went into Mordor) then what? Sauruman isn't much to deal with in all honesty. So that's my addition currently. Thanks for the fun topic.

[Essex]

if Gandalf had not fallen, the 'World of Men' would have been pretty much obliterated.

I put it to you that Gandalf would have definately followed Frodo and Sam, and that the fellowship would have beaten the forces of orcs at Parth Galen.

Therefore:

No merry and pippin starting the Ent's movement towards the destruction of Isengard.

No healing of Theoden.

No mustering of Erkendrand's forces and the Huorns at Helm's Deep

Therefoer Total annihilation of Rohan people

Therefore no Ride of the Rohirrim at Pellenor Fields

Therefore no defeat of the Witch King by Eoywn / Merry

No trip by Aragorn to the Coast to get more troops

Therefore probable wipe out of Gondor's forces

No argument regarding the Witch King's demise between the two orc hunters who would have probably tracked the hobbits down.

Fight between the orcs and the hobbits (and Gandalf)

Now, tall order here, but the orcs possibly could have won this and got the Ring, and therefore END OF STORY.

But if the hobnits and gandalf did survive, then there wouldn't be much for Frodo, Sam and Gandalf to come back to.......if they could make it back through the lava pits once Mount Doom exploded after the Ring was thrown in. No Eagles around Mordor to give them a lift.......

[alatar]

Assume that all Nine of the Fellowship make it out of Moria and that they decide to go to Lothlorien. Also assume that all Nine decide to leave by boat as in the book. My first question, before we would deal with the events that (might) happen at Parth Galen would be:

How many boats, and who rides with whom?

Don't think that three boats would be adequate to take on the additional load of Gandalf. I think that four would be necessary.

Do Sam and Frodo still ride with Aragorn, or does Frodo and Sam pair up with Gandalf?

Aragorn and Boromir in one boat would be overkill, and we wouldn't want to stifle the budding relationship between Elf and Dwarf, and so I would propose that Aragorn would have Merry or Pippin and Boromir whichever one wasn't in Aragorn's boat.

Anyway, I'd have it as:

Boat 1 - F, S, G
Boat 2 - A, P
Boat 3 - B, M
Boat 4 - L, G

Would this affect how Boromir responds when Merry and Pippin are attacked at Parth Galen as he would then have 50% less exposure to the twain?

And would Aragorn, not required to be the leader, feel more disposed to going to Gondor and so buddy up a bit with Boromir?

As I have previously stated, one could do some mental gymnastics and work out a solution by which the events after Parth Galen all happen exactly as they do in the original story (in brief, have the Balrog accompany some Moria orcs and he and Gandalf take a dive over the Rauros falls).

My other questions regarding the surviving Gandalf would be, like mormegil, how long would the Fellowship stay in Lothlorien and also would Gandalf receive a gift?

Sorry for the unorderedness of the post. :)

P.S. Essex, haven't seen you in a while; glad you're back.

[mormegil]

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

[alatar]

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

Would agree. One of the problems with 'if' scenarios is that at what point do you start a completely new story? I've continually in my own rewriting (mental) tried to 'get back' to the original storyline as much as possible.

Like if we couldn't brainstorm a way to get Theoden healed, then I could write, "Then Alatar and Pallando, on a trip back from the East, stop off at Meduseld and break Saruman's hold on Theoden, just to torque Curunir off. They then went back into the East..."

It's like cheating.

[Essex]

All this goes to show how TIGHT and well worked the plot of LOTR is.

Alter one little thing, and the story is irrevocably Changed. in some cases first hand, and in others like dominoes.

e.g.

first hand

Frodo leaves an hour later from Bag End. - captured by wraith - end of story

dominoes

Hobbit's don't fall asleep on the downs - no barrow wight - no sword for merry - no defeat of witch king - frodo and sam then captured by orc hunters - end of story

first hand

Nob not going to loo for Merry outside the Pony - Merry probably killed by ringwraiths (this also has further domino effects, of course)

dominoes

gandalf doesn't tell radagast to speak to birds and animals re news - no gwaihir to isengard - no escape - no battle between gandalf and ring wraiths on weathertop and drawing off of 4 ringwraiths - probable defeat of aragorn and frodo and Ring captured - end of story


PS Alatar - cheers, been spending what time I have online recently on the Gallifrey Online Doctor Who forums. Yes, even MORE 'nerdy' than Lord of the Rings!!!! ;)

[Glirdan]

I think what we would need to think about first would be these questions: What if the Balrog and the Goblins of Moria did come after the fellowship? What would happen? Would Lorien be burned? Would Gandalf die anyway? What would happen to the rest of the Fellowship? and What would happen to Galadriel and Celeborn?

These are all questions that I have been thinking about constantly and I can't really think of any solutions for them, besides the first question. The solution to that would be that the Balrog and Goblins DON'T follow them out of Moria, which should be an obvious solution.

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate any input on your answers for these questions.

Glirdy

[alatar]

I think what we would need to think about first would be these questions: What if the Balrog and the Goblins of Moria did come after the fellowship

My big question is how the Balrog would get out in the first place - if I were a Dwarf, I would make entrances (or at least some of them) dwarf height so that those taller than men would have some discomfort entering...just how big are their doorways in that Smaug can run around at will?

Well, anyway, the goblins would have been put off by the light somewhat. The Balrog could have pursued the Fellowship, but then again, it may have been happy just driving them out of Moria.

Gandalf could have sealed the entrance of Moria against pursuit, and the strain of the same could have 'killed' him. He gets buried in the rubble and after some brief mourning, the Fellowship-1 goes to Lothlorien. Gandalf then could be unburied by the 'moles of Manwe' and thereby become Gandalf the White.


Would Lorien be burned?

Surely if Galadriel could withstand the might of Mordor, she and her people could withstand a bunch of orcs and a Balrog.


Would Gandalf die anyway?

Gandalf has to die; the story just isn't as interesting with him aiding Frodo's decision. Plus, when you initially read the story, you start really thinking as a major character dies - where's TTT?!? Does Gandalf survive the fall? What a 'cliffhanger!'


What would happen to the rest of the Fellowship?

Same as before, unless we would want to start a new story...you could have the Balrog pursue the Fellowship out of Moria towards Lothlorien, and Boromir could start imploring Frodo to use the Ring on the Balrog. Frodo of course would not do so, and the strife seen at Parth Galen could show itself here. The Balrog and orcs, finally catching up with the Fellowship, attack and in the disorder Sam and Frodo could become separated from the other members of the Fellowship. This could be Gandalf's plan - to allow Frodo to escape - while he and the others take on the enemy. The Galadhrim could show up unexpectedly and aid the good guys - even helping Sam and Frodo into boats? Again I would have Gandalf sell himself by taking on the Balrog. Both could drown in a river or something. Gandalf would be rescued by the 'fishes of Ulmo.'


and What would happen to Galadriel and Celeborn?

Surely nothing that would get them overly excited, as when you're as old as these two, you've seen just about everything twice.

[Glirdan]

Has anybody else thought of this question??? What do you think would have happened if Gandalf wasn't held captive by Saruman?

In my opinion, Gandalf would have made it back to Bag-End before Frodo and Co. left for Crickhollow and probably would have left as soon as he reached Bag-End seeing as he knew the Nine Riders were out and abroad. Therefor, they would probably have not left through the Dark Forest, never met Tom Bombadill (who was, sadly, left out of the movies) reached Bree earlier and possibly not have met Aragorn until later and by the time they reached Weathertop, they would not have ran into the Black Riders and Fordo would not have his shoulder wound. Then they would have reached Rivendell without any problems and this is where it gets tricky. Would they have left Rivendell before Boromir or Legolas or Gimli and Gloin or any of the others who were part of the Council of Elrond arrived???? I would really like to hear others opinion on this because this question has been burning in my mind since I reread the FotR.

[mormegil]

Has anybody else thought of this question??? What do you think would have happened if Gandalf wasn't held captive by Saruman?

Problem with that senario is that Gandalf would never known to think Saruman was a traitor which would have horrible implications that could only be left to complete speculation.

[Glirdan]

How about this than: What if Gandalf guessed that, from what Radagast reported to him, that Saruman turned traitor.

OR

get rid of my other theory and start over with a different question which is: what if Gandalf sent the letter to Frodo himself? Than, he could have gone to Isengard and still have been held captive and then the rest of what I said in my other post happens except for the fact that Gandalf is not part of the group.

[AragornII]

So, if Gandalf doesn't know that Saruman is a traitor, then the Fellowship would probably have taken the Gap of Rohan over the Misty Mountains, thereby not even going to Moria in the first place. Now it could get even more interesting. We could have Saruman send out some Uruk-hai to capture them, and then instead of a batle with Moria orcs, it's with Uruk-hai, which would make the battle more interesting. Assuming they survive that, and Saruman for some reason doesn't pursue them :eek: (or maybe he does :D ), where would they go?

[Glirdan]

So, if Gandalf doesn't know that Saruman is a traitor, then the Fellowship would probably have taken the Gap of Rohan over the Misty Mountains, thereby not even going to Moria in the first place. Now it could get even more interesting. We could have Saruman send out some Uruk-hai to capture them, and then instead of a batle with Moria orcs, it's with Uruk-hai, which would make the battle more interesting. Assuming they survive that, and Saruman for some reason doesn't pursue them :eek: (or maybe he does :D ), where would they go?

They would probably head straight to Edoras seeing as it's the closest place of refugee and this time they would be welcome because Boromir would be there and Gandalf wouldn't know what happened to Theoden and wouldn't know what kind of welcome they'd get. Very good thought.

[AragornII]

Do you think that Theoden would not have been as "sick" as he was? Or maybe it would have been before Eomer was banished. He might even decide to go with them!!! :eek: Hey, now there's a new idea. That could change tons of things. Now I have to think some more on this.

[Glirdan]

Do you think that Theoden would not have been as "sick" as he was? Or maybe it would have been before Eomer was banished. He might even decide to go with them!!! :eek: Hey, now there's a new idea. That could change tons of things. Now I have to think some more on this.

That would bring up new ideas, but this thread is devoted to Gandalf, not Theoden. Stay on topic. As for the part about Theoden not being as sick as he was, that's not true because no matter what Saruman would have looked to over rule Rohan and corrupting the King is one easy way to do it.

[Gandalf_the _white]

sorry if this is off topic but i always wondered wat would happen if Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of Boromir? He wouldn't have been tempted by the ring and might of survived but then wat would Boromir have done back in Minas Tirith? Would he have protected Osgilliath like Faramir did?

[Gothmog]

Gandalf: This might interest you -->Was Boromir a mistake? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=799&highlight=boromir+mistake)

[Gandalf_the _white]

thnx that helps a bit

[Glirdan]

Yes it is off topic here but please, do join this disscussion. Nobody has posted here for a long time and it makes me sad because this topic is one that interests me greatly. There are so many things that have happened that you could change which would greatly change the outcome of the War of the Rings. Please, join in. I'd love to hear your thoughts on all this.

[Gandalf_the _white]

np I think that if Gandalf had survived Moria and the nazgul on the fell beast had still turned up he may have been able to completly destroy it not just its steed.

[Glirdan]

Hmmmm. That is possible because he's only fighting one Nazgul and not five like he did at Weathertop. The only thing (that has been disscussed many times before) is how would Gandalf turn into Gandalf the White. Perhaps at Amon Hen, he could have fallen trying to protect Boromir and then maybe Boromir would have survived. Or maybe he could have fallen off of Rauros somehow and then Boromir would have died. That is a very contraversial topic. I say that perhaps after fleeing Moria, the Balrog could perhaps have chased Gandalf and then they fought and both died there while the Fellowship fled to Lothlorien. There are endless possibilities with this question.

[Gandalf_the _white]

Or gandalf could have realised the balrog was chasing them and sent the others away in groups and got the balrog to go after him.
That would have been a big battle and he could have died and become gandalf the white here
BTW are we the only ones on this thread or something? lol

[Glirdan]

Well kind of yes. I think it's because everyone forgot about this thread... :(
Very good theory by the way. Maybe Gandalf and the Balrog could have climbed the Caradhras and fought there. The Balrog could have fallen again and Gandalf would have collpased and died like he originally did, on top of a mountain. Another theory I've had that's been put down was what if Gandalf never got captured by Saruman? What if he didn't go see Saruman when Radagast instructed him to?

BTW Gandalf, please speak in full scentences. Using abreviation is frowned upon here. As you hopefully noticed, the only abreviations we use are "BTW" and "LOL". Just a little friendly advice. ;)

[Gandalf_the _white]

Sorry about that lol.
Well if gandalf hadn't gone to Sauraman ( its seems so obvious now Sauron/Sauraman!) then it probally means he would have already known that sauraman was a traitor. I think he already guessed that he had turned traitor but he needed some proof.

[Glirdan]

Tolkien does state (correct me if I'm wrong) a few times in the books that Gandalf had guessed that there was something wrong with Saruman. Your idea of him needing proof is a good theory, but again (correct me if I'm wrong again) he went there because he thought that Saruman knew some new information about the Enemy. Now to speculate even furher, what if Gandalf, after coming right back from Edoras after being captured, went straight to Bree and awaited Frodo there? What would that change? WOULD it change anything?

[Himilsillion]

I think that if Gandalf stayed with the Fellowship the Fellowship would have still broken up. Gandalf would want Aragorn to go and help with the coming war so Sauron would be distracted by the return of the king rather than finding the ring. I think that Merry and Pippin would still have been captured. I do not know whether or not Borromir would have fallen or not. Either way the Fellowship would have split up. Gandalf would have asked that Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and possibly Borromir to go save Merry and Pippin. After they save Merry and Pippin (if they could) they would not try to catch Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam instead they would go and aid in the war. Gandalf would have helped Frodo and Sam get into Mordor but after they got in he might disappear so that Frodo and Sam would meet up with Gollum. Gandalf would do this because he knows Frodo doesn't have the strenghth to destroy the ring by himself, he needs the help of Sam and Frodo's pity of Gollum. Frodo and Sam would have never met Faramir in Ithelin :( but, on the contraray they would not have met Shelob near Cirith Ungol. I think Gandalf would have tried to cross into Mordor over the Mountians of Shadow where the river Poros flows down. The crossing might be easier here because of the river. It is also here that he might have been "promoted" to Gandalf the White by Eru through Ulmo. Is this where he would leave Frodo and Sam as well? I think after Frodo and Sam get into Mordor the plot would be pretty close to the real plot.

[Himilsillion]

Something that I would not have thought of in my last post is that how would Theoden get uncorrupted from Sauruman? Gandalf would not have been in Rohan to save him. I think that after Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Borromir rescued Merry and Pippin they would go to Minas Tirith. Rohan would lie in ruin and Aragorn would have never gone through the paths of the dead and Gondor might not be able to win on the Plains of the Pellenor. So without Gandalf aiding in the war the war would not have gone as well as it did. The war would have been an easy victory for Sauron and it would distract him enough for Frodo and Sam to get to Mount Doom. Though maybe after Gandalf got his power-up and left Frodo and Sam at the River Poros Gandalf could have gone and aided in the war but, by then Rohan would be gone and Aragorn and company would already be in Minas Tirith and the siege would have already started and all would be lost. The fact that Gandalf would have not been in Rohan would have srewed up the entire war so I think that ever since the begining Gandalf would want all of the Fellowship to aid in the war except Frodo and Sam.

[Glirdan]

Awsome theories there Himilsillion.

I think another thing missing in there is how would they know that Saruman was corrupted in the first place? All of the questions and theories come back to the conversation with Radagast and Gandalf when Radagast first told Gandalf that Saruman wanted to see him.

So I propose we start our theorizing there and here's some questions for you guys. What would have happened if Gandalf didn't go see Saruman? Would he have gone back to the Shire and somehow still found out about Saruman's treachery?

To answer my first question, I think he would have went back to the Shire and told them to leave right away and told him then and there about Aragorn. Gandalf would then have made his way over to Rivendell to consult Elrond on this matter and then maybe, since he knows that Frodo is safe in Aragorn's hands and Elrond would know where he went to, he would go and see Saruman and then get captured. Elrond would then send Gwaihir to rescue Gandalf if Gandalf didn't return by the time Frodo arrived in Rivendell.

Now that raises even more questions which I'll get into later. But first I want to know what you guys think would have happened.

[Himilsillion]

If Gandalf would have never went to see Saruman he would go to Bree and meet Frodo and Co. at the Prancing Pony on time. There they would meet Aragorn and all six of them would proceed onto to Rivendell. He would not add any extraordinary haste to his travel because he would not know that the Nazgul were sent forth from Minas Morgul because he learned about the nine from Saruman in Orthranc right when Saruman revealed his treachery.

[Glirdan]

Ah, but see. That is where you are at fault. He did know about the Nine coming forth. He learned about it from Radagast, before he went to see Saruman. He would still add haste to thier journey and if they did get attacked at Weathertop, I think he would have somehow have stopped the Witch-King from stabbing Frodo. Thus, they wouldn't lose as much time as they did when he did get wounded. They would have had the Council sonner and probably would have left and yes Boromir would still have joined the Fellowship.

As for him going to the Prancing Pony, that is possible, yet I think he would have felt safer if he went to the Shire and told Frodo that they had to leave straight away. They would have reached Bree sooner, before the Nazgul even reached the Shire perhaps. They still would have met Aragorn and all six of them would have left for Rivendell. And seeing as they left early, there would be no fight at Weathertop and they would have reached Rivendell even sooner.

Now this raises some more questions, does it not? The most crucial would be "Would they have the Council of Elornd early?" What do you think?

[Himilsillion]

I think that the council of Elrond would have taken place earlier so that they could stay ahead of Sauron. Since Frodo wouldn't have been stabed they wouldn't have waited for him to recover to start the council. Since the council took place earlier the Fellowship would have departed earlier. Since they departed earlier they might have had better weather at Caradrahas. Would they have even gone thourgh Moria?

[Glirdan]

They might have, but now I'm going by the movie and not the books. No, I think they would have passed over Caradhras and have no need to go through Moria. Now this brings up a dilema, does it not? When and where would Gandalf turn into Gandalf the White? Because this is what the whole thread is based on, is it not? So, where and when? Possibly once they reached Rauros? He goes over the falls in a fight or something? Or something else?

[AragornII]

First, how do we know that everyone was there before Frodo and Co. came? By the movie, nobody came until after Frodo was healed. So, by the movie, even if he hadn't been stabbed, they still would have had to wait. Second, in the book, after the council they sent out scouts to find out was going on outside. They stayed in Rivendell for two months before they set out, so that three days or so wait while Frodo was healing wouldn't have made much of a difference. Third, even if they had set out earlier, they still would have hit bad weather on Caradhras because, if you go by the movie, Saruman was controlling the weather, and he sent the storm. I guess it depends on whether you're going by the book or the movies.

[Glirdan]

Saruman was controlling the weather, and he sent the storm. I guess it depends on whether you're going by the book or the movies.

Yes, it does depend on what you're going by, but I think we should be going by the books seeing as they were written by Tolkien where as the movie, even though it was very accurate, was not and is slightly innacurate. I understand that they had to change a few things in order for the general public (in other words, the non Barrow-Downers and other who've read the books before the movies) to understand what was going on.

I do agree with you that the three days would not really make a difference, except for the fact that if Gandalf did not listen to Radagast and go see Saruman and instead went back to the Shire and told them to leave right away, they would have gotten to Rivendell earlier. Now, a few people would already have arrived and they would not really need to wait for Boromir to have the Council and after they sent out the scouts, they could have left, still with Nine except maybe Gimli, Legolas and definetely Boromir would not have been in it. Elrond would have chosen people to go with them.

[Himilsillion]

Without Borromir on the Fellowship would the Fellowship have broken up? If the Fellowship didn't break up would Aragorn gone to Gondor and claim the throne? Without Gandalf fighting in the war would the war be successfull? Would Frodo be able to sneak into mordor with a company of nine companions? Would Gandalf be "promoted" to Gandalf the White? Lots of questions that my or my not need answering. As I have mentioned without Gandalf and Aragorn being in Rohan the story would not have happened the way it did. For one, Aragorn would have never went through the paths of the dead. Gandalf wouldn't have been able to save the corupted Theoden, reuntite the forces of Erkanbrand, or help defend the White City. Whithout the prescence of Aragorn and Gandalf in the war Sauron would have won.

[Glirdan]

I you look under Novice and Newcomers, I've started a new thread about that exact topic. What would have happened if Boromir didn't die, so please, join in the disscussion over there.