Best Fighter

[Faramir]

I have had many arguments with other people about Aragorn not being the best fighter in lotr so im guessing most of you will say Aragorn is the best fighter so I'll leave him out.

Out of these canidates who is the best fighter??(If ive forgotten somone tell me)

1.Faramir
2.Elrond
3.Gimli
4.Eomer
5.Gamling
6.Pippin
7.Legolas
8.Hama
9.Eowyn
10.Sam
11.Boromir
13.Haldir
14.Merry
15.Gandlaf
16.Witchking
17.Gothmog
18.Madril
19.Theoden
20.Frodo

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Perhaps Gandalf and Witchy are on a different level. Aragorn was arguably a better fighter than all the rest though. I would only give Eomer, Boromir or Faramir a chance against him.

[Formendacil]

Glorfindel has them all beat flat.

Except for Gandalf and the Witchking. Quite frankly, like Aragorn, I would put those two off the list, simply because one's a Maia and the other's a Sauron-enhanced, no-man-can-kill-him, fighting machine...

Of course, judging by the fact that you put Madril on the list, this is movie-based, not book-based. I have no comment there. Comparing one movie fighter to another is too difficult for my untrained eyes.

Or...

wait!

The King of the Dead. Unstoppable.

[the phantom]

Don't discount Elrond. He didn't fight in LOTR, but that does not mean he couldn't fight. He didn't because of the whole healing/killing thing that the elves have (if you kill it diminishes your power to heal).

I'm sure if it came down to it and Elrond had to pick up a sword he would be a force to reckon with. Never leave someone out of your plans when all his genes come from the likes of Fingolfin, Thingol, Hador, and Beren- not to mention an angelic being.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Nah, Elrond's a bit too old. A couple of rounds with 'Gorn and he'd need a rest.

[the phantom]

Ha! In elf years he's probably younger than Aragorn.

And do you think it's a coincidence that Hugo W played him? Agent Smith. Only the chosen one, Anakin Skywalker, can defeat Elrond. :p

(I knew I could pack LOTR, SW, and Matrix into the same post)

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Well, if we look at all of Middle Earth history and discount Valar and Maiar then the strongest fighter, by far, was Feanor. Feanor has the distinction of being the only mortal to fight a Valar in melee combat. Though Feanor fell in that battle, that fact he could stand for even a short time says alot.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Mortal? Valar? You're confusing me Snorri, stop confusing me! :eek:

Seriously though, explain.

[Formendacil]

Well, if we look at all of Middle Earth history and discount Valar and Maiar then the strongest fighter, by far, was Feanor. Feanor has the distinction of being the only mortal to fight a Valar in melee combat. Though Feanor fell in that battle, that fact he could stand for even a short time says alot.

What Vala was this?

The only one to fight a Vala that I know of is his half-brother Fingolfin, who faced Morgoth before the gates of Angband.

You must be confusing the two.

But if we are merely counting mortals, then we must eliminate all Elves from the list.

In which case, I herewith nominate Elendil, who half-killed (Gil-galad killed the other half) Sauron, WHILE he was wearing the Ring. The fact that he died himself would appear to be negligible.

[the phantom]

Actually, Snorri, that was Fingolfin.

But Feanor certainly has a claim. He fought alone against multiple Balrogs (as well as their little orc soldiers) and lasted quite a while. If he were on the list, I would likely vote for Feanor.
Seriously though, explain
I think by "mortal" he simply meant non Ainu.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Had Faramir not explicitly stated "lotr", I would argue for Turin. However... I submit Faramir himself. Brute force does not always the best fighter make. Sometimes subtle strength coupled with intelligence goes a long way.

[the phantom]

I would argue for Turin
And you'd probably be right. If I'm honest with myself I give him the edge over Feanor, but I vote Feanor first and Turin second just because Feanor is my favorite character in the world. :)

(and because my favorite Downer is named after him ;) )

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Fingolfin!

Too many F names :rolleyes:

By mortal I meant anything that is born to Middle Earth (Men, Dwarves, Elves) and not Ainu (Vala and Maiar).

If you can kill it, it ain't immortal. :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

(and because my favorite Downer is named after him ;) )*blushes*

And besides... I'm always right. Turin, despite being hated by Morgoth, cursed by Morgoth, working entirely against fate, generally disliked by many, somewhat prideful, and all that... he still managed to spend the vast majority of his time (except that whole outlaw situation) doing what he thought was right and kicking some serious butt doing it. And even when he was living with a band of outlaws and not being so nice, he became a member because in one smooth motion, he killed the "best" of the group. He's by default the best of them, and fated to be... *Fea trails off, knowing that everybody by now gets her point*.

But Faramir... I really like Faramir. And Faramir, by best fighter, did you mean hand-to-hand combat, or can we go with archers or mental fighting, because if we're working mentally, than Galadriel gets the win hands down for passing the test and not taking the Ring. And she's obviously a good fighter physically, since she and Celeborn fought together in Mirkwood.

Fea

[Faramir]

hand to hand and "archering" combat...mental combat can get difficult..

[the phantom]

because if we're working mentally, than Galadriel gets the win hands down for passing the test and not taking the Ring
Faramir didn't take the Ring either. Same thing with Elrond. It's likely that Elrond even handled the Ring in Rivendell while Frodo was knocked out (remember, he woke up to find the Ring on a new chain).

[Faramir]

possibly, but why cant gandalf touch the ring??

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Gandalf did touch the Ring. (or is this a movie memory?) In Bag End. But I discounted him in favor of Galadriel because part of why Galadriel came to ME in the first place was that she was looking for lands of her own. Gandalf was sent to aid and counsel. So even though he did have a mental battle to not take the Ring, it wasn't as strong as Galadriel's, since the Ring would have given her a whole slew of power to conquer Sauron, expand Lothlorien, and all that good stuff. Elrond had already shown he was willing to see it destroyed when he counselled Isildur to "throw it into the fire!!!". So... *there*.

But since Faramir says no to mental... I'm sticking with my Turin/Faramir.

Fea

[the phantom]

since the Ring would have given her a whole slew of power to conquer Sauron, expand Lothlorien, and all that good stuff
And the Ring also would've given Elrond a "whole slew of power to conquer Sauron", expand his realm, and "all that good stuff".
Elrond had already shown he was willing to see it destroyed
Indeed, and his apparant lack of a mentle struggle with the Ring might be a sign of a greater mind. ;)

[Beleg Cuthalion]

I'd say the best warrior was Tuor, bar none.

Who else among all the Children of Illuvatar has slain a Balrog and lived to tell the tale, let alone five in one day, and a dragon to boot.

BTW, how does the prospect of Balrogs riding dragons into battle strike you?

[Rumil]

I'm for Fingolfin (fave elf),

but,

what about Earendil? Surely downing Ancalagon the Black, who appears to have worried even Eonwe must be quite a feat. (Even with Vingilot and a Silmaril).

[Beleg Cuthalion]

I'm for Fingolfin (fave elf),

but,

what about Earendil? Surely downing Ancalagon the Black, who appears to have worried even Eonwe must be quite a feat. (Even with Vingilot and a Silmaril).

You forgot he had eagles with 150'+ wingspans flying support for him.

[Faramir]

lets say we throw in mental "combat" who would be the top five? my guess would be:

1.Sauron
2.Galadriel
3.Elrond
4.Gandalf
5.Saruman

[TPotSS]

No way would Gandalf be under Galadriel and Elrond.

And about Tuor killing Balrogs- the ones he killed were watered down versions of what most people think of when they see "Balrog" (they think of LOTR Durin's Bane). Back when Tolkien wrote that about Tuor there were bunches of Balrogs. Later he made them fewer and more powerful.

[Boromir88]

In the first list, with the exclusion of Aragorn, Boromir, Eomer, and Gimli would be the best mortal contenders. As for the best on the list, I would have to say Wikkie.

If we are talking about mortals only, I wonder why the name Hurin hasn't been brought up yet. 70 trolls? single-handedly? Quite impressive.

There have been some great point and cases brought up on this thread, so far. I'd have to agree with Feanor, and say that Galadriel and Elrond's pull to the ring would be stronger than Gandalf's. For it was Galadriel and Elrond who desired to have armies flock to their banner to personally overthrow Sauron.

For "mental" combat, one could make a case for Galadriel and Elrond. They were able to conceal from Sauron their rings for a long, long, long time, and he was never able to get them. Also, it was Gandalf who turned to Galadriel and Elrond for advice. This might just be a wise move by Gandalf however, turning to some of the oldest, and wisest people left on Middle-earth, with plenty of experience, in the matter.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ah, mental struggle is officially open. What say you to Denathor? For years he resisted the desire to use the palantir, and even when he gave in (yes, sign of weakness... *sigh*) he was still able to use it without [mostly] going mad. He also used it well, being able to mentally battle against Sauron. And if you remember Pippen's words in Minas Tirith, Denathor and Gandalf had a long mental struggle. Gandalf came out on top, sure, but he's Istari for Eru's sake.

But on this, I must also disagree with my own statement, saying that Aragorn has it for mortal men of the 3rd Age. He was able to swipe control of the palantir from Sauron, bend it to his own will, after it had been generally corrupted for years and years, and then, here's the best part: he managed to scare the bejeezus out of Sauron with it. *grin*

Fea

[Neurion]

And about Tuor killing Balrogs- the ones he killed were watered down versions of what most people think of when they see "Balrog" (they think of LOTR Durin's Bane). Back when Tolkien wrote that about Tuor there were bunches of Balrogs. Later he made them fewer and more powerful.Please quote from source of said information.

[the phantom]

Boromir, Eomer, and Gimli
What? You're leaving out Faramir? From ROTK, The Steward and the King-
...and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle.
I would pick Faramir over Eomer and Gimli.

Boro88 has nominated Hurin for best man warrior. He may be right, but I would choose his son, Turin, over him.

And Fea is right to mention Denethor. He is worthy of some recognition. From LOTR, Appendix A-
Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil (Aragorn) as to one of nearest kin...

[Boromir88]

A nice quote phantom, and that might put Faramir over Eomer, but I still stick with Gimli being the better of them. I mean killing 42 orcs at Helm's Deep isn't a number to shrug off, also, it was worthy for the recognition of Gamling, Eomer, and Aragorn himself.

When all were safe within, Eomer turned: "I thankyou, Gimli son of Gloin!" he said. "I did not know that you were with us in the sortie. but oft the unbidden guest proves the best company."

We must stop this rat-hole," said Gamling. "Dwarves are said to be cunning folk with stone. Lend us your aid, master!"

"If he wins back to the caves, he will pass your count again," laughed Aragorn. "Never did I see an axe so wielded."

To me this puts him above Faramir, and right next to Boromir. (according to the time we are dealing with).

[Faramir]

In my opinion......

Best Fighters(Offensive)(3rd age)

1.Aragorn
2.Faramir
3.Boromir

Best Fighters(Defense)(3rd age)

1.Aragorn
2.Gimli
3.Legolas

Best "mental combat"(3rd age)

1.Galadriel
2.Gandalf
3.Elrond/Denethor

[the phantom]

Faramir or Boromir are the same in my mind, and I would not put Gimli above them. Gimli may have slain 42 in an all night battle, but Boromir slew at least 20 in about two minutes when he was ALONE defending Merry and Pippin.

And Faramir, must you insist on keeping Galadriel above a powerful angelic being (Gandalf)? I wouldn't even put Elrond (who's part angel) above Gandalf. I would put Gandalf above all third age individuals (except Sauron).

[TPotSS]

And about Tuor killing Balrogs- the ones he killed were watered down versions of what most people think of when they see "Balrog" (they think of LOTR Durin's Bane). Back when Tolkien wrote that about Tuor there were bunches of Balrogs. Later he made them fewer and more powerful.
Please quote from source of said information.
Well, I'm not at home with my books right now, and even if I was it might take me an eternity to find. All I know is that in his earlier drafts of stories, there were "armies" and "hosts" of balrogs, and that they were slain by all sorts of elves. In later stories, the balrogs appear to be much more powerful. For instance, the balrog that Gandalf fought.

I know for sure that, someplace in one of his drafts, Tolkien wrote a note that there were, at the most, seven balrogs. This is an obvious change from his earlier stories, like his early version of the Fall of Gondolin (the one where Tuor kills multiple balrogs).

[Halbarad]

I would like to add someone to the initial list and that is Prince Imrahil, a personal favourite of mine. If I may quote from Battle of the Pelennor Fields:

"Aragorn and Eomer and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City,
and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed
, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms, and few
indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their
wrath."

These three get my vote.

As for all mortals, Hurin is my pick:

"So ended the mightest of the warriors of mortal men"
-Of the Ruin of Doriath.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

And Faramir, must you insist on keeping Galadriel above a powerful angelic being (Gandalf)? I wouldn't even put Elrond (who's part angel) above Gandalf. I would put Gandalf above all third age individuals (except Sauron).
Yeah, but tp, that's exactly why Gandalf shouldn't be on the list at all. He's an angelic being, which gives him an unfair advantage. Although there is no doubting that he can certainly whack a stick, and yes, I'll admit it, in the books he claims that not Aragorn, nor Gimli, nor even Legolas could hurt him physically once he is reincarnated. And like you said with Elrond, he's part (although a small part) Maia, and so really, he shouldn't get to be on the list either. Galadriel is pure Elf.

Although on second thought... should Ringbearers be considerable? They, like I just said about Gandalf, have an unfair advantage. Sure they are all powerful in and of themselves, but the rings give that extra pinash. Would they be as powerful without them? Nope.

Fea

[Makar]

I give it a tie between Gothmog-Gandalf-Witch King. Gothmog was probably the best fighter. Gandalf had great powers, but was able only to defeat an unamed Balrog and he himself perished for a time. The witch king probably also benefited from combat training while he was living, but later from the powers he recieved from Sauron. I vote for the Balrog captain, Gothmog, who in his early conception was the son of Melko.

[Faramir]

Rate the Characters Fighting Skills:


1.Faramir-8.5/10
2.Elrond-9/10
3.Gimli-8/10
4.Eomer-7.5/10
5.Gamling-6/10
6.Pippin-4/10
7.Legolas-8.5/10
8.Hama-6.5/10
9.Eowyn-7/10
10.Sam-5.5/10
11.Boromir-9.5/10
13.Haldir-7/10
14.Merry-4/10
15.Gandlaf-10/10
16.Witchking-10/10
17.Gothmog-7/10
18.Madril-5/10
19.Theoden-8/10
20.Frodo-3.5/10
21.Imrahil-7/10
22.Aragorn-10/10
23.Glorfindel-8.5/10
24.Elladan-7.5/10
25.Elrohir-7.5/10

[TPotSS]

Okay- I'll try to rate some of the people you have listed, plus I'll add some of my own.

Faramir- 9.0
Elrond- 9.3
Gimli- 8.4
Eomer- 8.7
Legolas- 8.4
Boromir- 9.1
Witchking- 9.2
Theoden- 8.4
Imrahil- 8.7
Aragorn- 9.2
Glorfindel- 9.4
Elladan- 9.0
Elrohir- 9.0

additions...
Turin- 9.8
Hurin- 9.6
Feanor- 9.7
Fingolfin- 9.6
Maehdros- 9.6
Ecthelion- 9.4

[King of the North]

Even Legolas is my favorite character, i would have to say that Gandalf and the Witch King are about tied for 1st place. The question should be what is your favorite character in each category, because it is a given that Gandalf and the Witchking are going to be better fighters than mere mortal men. For those fighters who are not demigods I believe Aragorn is the best.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A bit of advice for those who have made lists - please tell us why you make your choices. Unfortunately, a list of names is not very interesting for others to read... :)

[Faramir]

sorry i didnt have much time, ill put more effort in next time.

[Boromir88]

Faramir or Boromir are the same in my mind, and I would not put Gimli above them. Gimli may have slain 42 in an all night battle, but Boromir slew at least 20 in about two minutes when he was ALONE defending Merry and Pippin.
Excellent point phantom, but I'm having trouble seeing how you think Boromir and Faramir are equal. Faramir is a good fighter, but he's more like his dad, he can fight, but more of a thinker. Where Boromir is the pure fighter. Even in Faramir's mind ("Appendices: The Stewards") none in Gondor could match his brother.

I agree that eventhough Gimli killed 42, Boromir's final stand is impressive. Gimli possibly had more kills, but just the description Pippin gives us really gets us to see Boromir's last stand well...
Then Boromir had come leaping through the trees. He had made them fight. He slew many of them and the rest fled. But they had not gone far on the way back when they were attacked again, by a hundred Orcs at least, some of them very large, and they shot a rain of arrows: always at Boromir. Boromir had blown his great horn till the woods rang, and at first the Orcs had been dismayed and had drawn back; but when no answer but the echoes came, they had attacked more fiercely than ever.
Through this account, Boromir halted the orcs twice, and on the third time they took him. I thought the way PJ did this scene, was good, and suitable to my liking, however he doesn't show well the account Pippin gives. It wasn't just one orc standing back and shooting arrows at Boromir, it was a bunch of orcs and "a rain of arrows: always at Boromir." Ok, my rant is over, on to some of the rankings...

Faramir, I'm having trouble seeing how you can give Legolas and Glorfindel the same ranking? Glorfindel the elf who drove off the Nazgul, the elf who slew a balrog, and he has the same fighting skill as Legolas? Also, I disagree with Gimli being a lesser fighter then Legolas, Gimli did kill more in Helm's deep, and Aragorn commented on his wonderful axemanship (as well as Eomer and Gamling).

TpotSS, I agree I would give Elladan and Elrohir a 9 (if not close to 9). They were just plain out crazy orc hunters, and I believe were called the best orc fighters in the third age (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I'd also agree that 9.4 is suitable for Glorfindel.

[Faramir]

Boromir, I dont know much about Glorfindel, so I gave him points based on what I know of him from FOTR, and everyone has their opinions and mine is that Legolas is just a more skilled fighter than Gimli.

[Boromir88]

I'm not saying any one has to agree with me, I'm simply saying this is what I think and this is why. I think that's what was asked for, to go on and say why you think Legolas is a better fighter then Gimli? I said I don't think so, and here's why....
I disagree with Gimli being a lesser fighter then Legolas, Gimli did kill more in Helm's deep, and Aragorn commented on his wonderful axemanship (as well as Eomer and Gamling).

[Faramir]

I know in the movie Gimli killed one more than legolas at helms deep,in the book what was the killing difference?

(oh ya and i only made it a .5 difference between them, so there virtually tied)

[Tilion]

well.. i think gothmog was pretty good.. he was certainly powerful. gandalf and the witchking as well. only because they have powers beyond the others that you have listed though.

[Anguirel]

It was the same in the book, Faramir. Legolas got 41, Gimli 42. However, we should make note of Legolas' killing of the fell beast with the Bow of Galadriel. I really don't think there's much in it between these two.

While perhaps not the best fighter in LOTR based on textual evidence, I believe Eomer "did the best." His last stand on the Pelennor Fields is my favourite passage in the book (except perhaps for the love scene between Eowyn and Faramir). He is mentioned as having come out of the battle unscathed, as only Aragorn and Imrahil succeeded in doing.

[Assasin]

I think the best fighter was Aragorn, as a Ranger he was a fighter, that was literally all he did.

[Ainaserkewen]

The best fighter certainly cannot be based on if he was defeated or not. I mean, look at Ken Jennings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Jennings) from Jeopardy. So just because some are undestroyable such as the King of the Dead, doesn't make them the best fighters. After all, he who is highest falls hardest. So what does that mean? People with more power, such as Gandalf, Sauron and the Witch King, have much greater weaknesses.

But if it were to come down to hand-to-hand combat, battle to the death in a sumo ring, then there are a few things to consider.

Stamina: Obviously Elves and Dwarves would last longer in a physical fight then men and wizards would. They're built for it.

Strength: What race is strongest, again, toss up between Elves and Dwarves.

Agility: Jeez, this isn't really leaving a lot of room for men is it?

So I've come to the conclusion that if they were to have an All-Middle-Earth wrestling tournament, Elves and Dwarves would probably kick bum because of how they're built and because they're so much older then men. I think that Gandalf wouldn't fare well in such a showdown if he couldn't use supernatural powers. Yes, he's a good fighter, he's lived a long time but he has the misfortune of being trapped in the body of a decaying man. Not good for a lasting opponent.

So who's the best fighter? In terms of Third Age type warriors, I'm tempted to say Aragorn only because I can see his spirit and skill beating most of the other candidates. He'd find a way...and that's very important. But then I wonder if her could take on Legolas? Or Gimli, or Elrond for that matter!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

May I throw in a balrog?

"Ai, Ai! A Balrog has come!" Elves are scared.

"Oh crap, it's Durin's Bane." Dwarves are scared.

"What is this new devilry?" Men are either scared or curious. Probably both.

"Oh crap, it's a balrog of Morgoth. I'm in trouble now." Wizard is scared.

Since they can be destroyed, I count them as mortal, even though it would probably live until the end of time with no interruptions. Wielding terror alone, a balrog is enough to scare off most. It would be enough for me, methinks. Cloaked in shadow and flame, that takes care of a few more. And you can't say that using fear and fire doesn't count as fighting, because in a fight, you use the tools given to you, and that's what a Balrog's got. With flaming sword and whip, we've just taken out nearly everybody else. Throw in powerful magic and a heck of a lot of experience and most fighters are in big trouble. And the wings. Don't forget those. Any opponents will be so busy trying to document proof that the Balrog can kill them with no trouble at all.

Fea

How many wings does it take to get to the firey center of a balrog debate? The world may never know.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Stamina: Obviously Elves and Dwarves would last longer in a physical fight then men and wizards would.
In a battle (army vs. army), stamina is very important. Battles can last for days.

But in a one-on-one duel to the death. Ha!

A one on one duel would rarely last long enough for stamina to come into play. An evenly matched duel could be over in twenty seconds. Any weapons expert would tell you that. There are so many chances and openings to win and the action moves so fast. Duels in movies last way longer than real life duels, and even movie duels aren't very long if you think about it.

Toss stamina out. Any respectable warrior would have enough stamina to do a duel.
Strength: What race is strongest, again, toss up between Elves and Dwarves.
Why would you say this? I thought that the men of Numenor were known for their size and strength. Turin was possibly the strongest being ever, and he was a man.
Agility: Jeez, this isn't really leaving a lot of room for men is it?
I'd say that it's Dwarves that would come up short on agility. And I remember a quote in the Sil that said that Turin grew to be as agile as any elf, so it's not as if elves own this category.
Elves and Dwarves would probably kick bum
Nope, I doubt it.
I think that Gandalf wouldn't fare well in such a showdown if he couldn't use supernatural powers. Yes, he's a good fighter, he's lived a long time but he has the misfortune of being trapped in the body of a decaying man. Not good for a lasting opponent.
I don't think so. First, think of how physically imposing the balrog was. Second, think about how Gandalf fought him. Did Gandalf say "I put spells on him and shot him with magic!"? No, Gandalf said "I hewed him". He fought him with a sword. Gandalf may have looked old, but he had plenty of physical ability. I seem to remember Pippin noting his strength when Gandalf lifted Faramir out of the pyre as if he weighed nothing.
then I wonder if her could take on Legolas? Or Gimli, or Elrond for that matter!
I imagine Aragorn would paste Gimli and beat down Legolas. Elrond- I wouldn't know. Aragorn's pretty awesome, but it'd really be tough to bet against big E.

[Ainaserkewen]

Toss stamina out. Any respectable warrior would have enough stamina to do a duel. Ah, but we're not discussing normal warriors are we. My point on stamina is that I'd bet that a one on one would be that much more evenly matched. Fights are longer if no-one has the upper hand, right? I'm not a fencer, or anything like that, I would just imagine that if say two great warriors fought each other, neither would back down and both would be good enough to avoid death longer than normal people.

Why would you say this? I thought that the men of Numenor were known for their size and strength. Turin was possibly the strongest being ever, and he was a man. Yes, you are right, and I did not take this into account. I was merely sliming the candidates list by eliminating most men. Most men, after all, have no special anything, especially if they don't have the motivation or hope.

I'd say that it's Dwarves that would come up short on agility. And I remember a quote in the Sil that said that Turin grew to be as agile as any elf, so it's not as if elves own this category. It's hard to say if Dwarves are agile or not...I've never heard anyone say they were or weren't. But they are famed fighters so I made the assumption that they are. Turin was not a normal man, and my points, like I said, were just meant to slim the piles a little. Turin was amazing and definately a strong contender, man or no.

I don't think so. First, think of how physically imposing the balrog was. Second, think about how Gandalf fought him. Yes, but it did kill him, and the only reason he came out of that was because of his "powers" if I may use that word.


I seem to remember Pippin noting his strength when Gandalf lifted Faramir out of the pyre as if he weighed nothing. Compared to Pippin, definately. But in the description of Wizards it clearly states that they were old men for a reason, meaning that indeed though their hearts were strong, that their bodies were weak.

I imagine Aragorn would paste Gimli and beat down Legolas. Elrond- I wouldn't know. Aragorn's pretty awesome, but it'd really be tough to bet against big E. It's hard to say really, for Legolas and Gimli at least because for Aragorn to summon enough of his personal strength in order to beat them, he'd have to have good motivation. That's Aragorn's strength, his hope and his heart. However, if he was simply told to try and kill Legolas for example, I think his human heart would be overpowered by Legolas's elven powers of skill and concentration.

Good post, my good Lord, I love these kind of debates. I hope you post again and point out any faults in this post.

And has anyone played the trading card game? What warrior card (or whatever they're called) is the strongest?

[lord of dor-lomin]

I hope you post again and point out any faults in this post.
What? Someone inviting me to post a second time? It must be my birthday or something. :p
I would just imagine that if say two great warriors fought each other, neither would back down and both would be good enough to avoid death longer than normal people.
If neither "would back down" then the fight would be very very short. Like I said before, there's so many chances to gain the upper hand in a fight with just one swing or thrust and if one guy gets the upper hand the other one had better back off quick or he's dead within two seconds.

If you get in a good blow on the other guy's leg his mobility is gone and it's easy to get him to fall down. You win pretty quick. If you get a good blow on his arm, then he's trying to match the strength and speed of your two good hands on your weapon with his one good hand on his weapon. You win pretty quick.

So it doesn't even take a mortal blow to make a fight be over quick.

Let's look at fights in general. Notice that fighting sports like boxing do certain things to lengthen the fight. They put padding on the fists of the fighters (making it harder to knock the other guy out), they make it illegal to punch in certain areas (making it easier to defend yourself), they don't let you grab your opponent or push them or kick them (limiting the ways you can gain an advantage), and finally they stop the fight every two minutes to allow the fighters to recover.

They've done an awful lot to make the fights longer, haven't they?

And yet, in most fights how long are the guys in the ring before one of them wins? Not too long.

So just imagine how short a fight would be with absolutely no rules, no padding, and no time outs. They'd be as long as a street fight. Have you ever seen two guys get mad at each other and decide to go at it? Those sort of fights usually lasts five to ten seconds.
Most men, after all, have no special anything
And dwarves and elves have a "special anything"? They're just a different race, that's all.
But they are famed fighters
Dwarves are known for being warlike, but "famed fighters"? Certainly not any more famous than men. Think of every great battle exploit by a dwarf or dwarf army and I can give you three or four great battle exploits by men.
Compared to Pippin, definately.
No, not just compared to Pip. Gandalf lifted Faramir like he was a toothpick. I know I couldn't do that, and I'm not old and decrepit at all.

[Gil-Galad]

don't forget about Gil-Galad! even though hes gone to the great haven in the sky, he still took on Sauron, a maia!

[Elonve]

Perhaps Gandalf and Witchy are on a different level. Aragorn was arguably a better fighter than all the rest though. I would only give Eomer, Boromir or Faramir a chance against him.


I totally agree! Eomer was supposed to be quite proficent on the battle feild. Boromir and Faramir too.

If your immortal you can't be "killed". But technically immortals would win....


Anywhooo !

Elly :D
________
High & low blood pressure forums (http://www.health-forums.org/high-low-blood-pressure/)

[mormegil]

I would have to agree with Halbarad that Hurin is the greatest mortal warrior ever. He was brave valiant and noble. He was the last to survive the fighting and killed 70 troll guards of Gothmog while crying "Aure Entulava! Day shall come again". And then to top it off for twenty five years or so ( I forget the exact number of years) he was held by Morgoth and he defied him the whole time and never gave in...mentally that's pretty tough.

[SoldierofMinisTirith]

In the Third Age during the War of the Ring I believe one of the greatest fighter had to be Boromir, just because his battle prowess was displayed of killing many Uruks and because he was wounded by the arrows of the enemies. He was not fighting the orc breeds of Mt.Gundabad or the underground breed of Moria. These were orcs which stood as tall as men, and were more ferocious then the average orc. Put in the valour he fought with in his heart, he was indeed a true warrior. However due to the early time of his death, his future accomplishments and thus further acccountability as a warrior are lost.

[AragornII]

I don't know if anyone has said this, but I think Pippin slaying a troll at the Black Gate is pretty impressive. I mean look at him... he is between four and five feet tall and this troll is huge. Thats got to count for something.

I'd also say either Merry or Eowyn, seeing as how the two of them together put the Witch King out of the picture. That might have involved a bit of luck but hey, everyone gets lucky sometime.

[Thurin Adanedhel]

I'm sure that Aragorn is described as the best hunter and the best swordsman of his time and I'd have to agree that he was the mightiest warrior of his time.
Boromir was, I think, better than Faramir in terms of a battle. I'm sure that the recapture of Osgiliath by Gondor was creditied more to Boromir than Faramir, and there is little mention of his 111 day journey to Rivendell for the Council, but the few mentions of it describe it as being a very tough and very dangerous journey to make. I would give him the edge over Faramir.

The last few days, before seeing this thread, I have been thinking about who was the greatest warrior among men. I had made a shortlist of men from the different ages: Barahir, Beren, Hurin, Huor, Turin, Elendil, Isildur, Earnil, Aragorn, Boromir, with a few others like Tuor, Eorl, Faramir, as outsiders.

I personally think that Turin was the mightiest, with Hurin and possibly Aragorn the next in line.

From the original list of the thread, Gandalf and Gothmog were both Maia that were clothed in bodily form while Elrond and the WitchKing were both boosted by rings of power. So they should have an edge over the rest.
Of the rest, I would give Boromir the advantage, for the reasons stated above.

p.s. I have been reading these forums for a while and now I've finally registered and this is my first post. I'm so happy to be a Downer :)

[Gil-Galad]

What makes a best fighter best? Lust for gold? power? or is it just born best?


there are obviusly many ways to be best, not just how many baddies you can kill, for example, Turgon could be the best fighter because he knew when and when not otattack because he was smart, but Feanor could be the best fighter because he charged recklessly at the enemy.


think about it,

Gil-"The Duke"-Galad

[Thinlómien]

When talking about mental combat, Sauron wuold be total winner. He's just more powerful than Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel or Elrond. Gandalf says that he can't beat Sauron.

And have you all forgotten the ents?!! Aren't they (in a way) great warriors?

[Parmawen]

Glorfindel has them all beat flat.

YES!!!! Definitely Glorfindel by far!!!! After all, he helped the company the most, and was able to outride the Ringwraiths. Keeping one's head in the face of danger is a quality important in a fighter.

[Boromir88]

I think we should stick with the original 20 people given at the beginning of the thread. It might just be me but it's a bit unfair comparing balrogs (or ents) to Mortals and smaller races and I think needs to be seperated into their own categories.

[Gil-Galad]

...and again i say there are many ways to be the best fighter, not just brute strength or how many kills...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think we are looking at this from the wrong angle. Let's take Hurin and Turin as our examples.

Can we really say that one was better than the other? Say we work out that Hurin was 0.00001% better than his son. Does that mean that if they played out a one-on-one fight 100 times that Hurin would always win? Of course not.

Hurin might have been disturbed during his sleep last night and so not quite as prepared as Turin. Turin might step in the one little puddle on the ground thus losing his balance ever so slightly during a critical point of the fight.

So for two similar cases, (Hurin and Turin, Legolas and Gimli, Boromir and Faramir) I think it's inappropriate to conclude that one is a better fighter than the other.

It's like in football: Brazil and Argentina are two of the best in the world right now. But circumstances dictate; I would not say that one team is better than the other because the two have proved in recent times that they can both defeat the other. Neither is best, they are two of the best, and possibly the two best.

There are clear cut cases: Aragorn is a better fighter than Gamling, say. As for the original list, we can eliminate some. Get rid of Legolas and Gimli, obviously. Hurin and Turin would come very near the top of everyone's list, but there's no definitive order to place those two. All we can really say is that Hurin and Turin are near the top, not which one is at the top.


EDIT: For the sake of argument (i.e. my argument) let's just suppose that Hurin and Turin were on the original list. :o

Ah, we've moved on to the history of Middle-earth by now, right? Right? You all saw it, I didn't start it! If you don't want to, then my points are still applicable. Just sub Hurin and Turin with....um.....'Gorn and Boromir.

[Gwydion]

The best warrior obviously had to be smart and cunning so I'd say it would have to be Gil-Galad, Aragorn, Eowyn and Elindil. Eowyn may not seem that good, but she did kill the Witch-King with a broken arm and not that many people could have done that. Gil-Galad and Elindil killed Sauron while he was wearing the Ring and Aragorn was just smart, quick and strong like all the others.

Boromir was a good commander in Gondor, and he was wise and his sense of duty was strong. I mean look what he did just to try and keep Merry and Pippin safe, most people would turn around and run faced with the odds that were presented at Amon Hen.

So in the original list it's a toss up between Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Legolas, and Gimli. Really the possibilities are endless and it depends on your opinion. In reality they all were the best in their particular areas.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Think of other things going on in somebody's life and mind during a battle.

Aragorn: "If I lose this battle, my world will be destroyed, my foster father will be disappointed, I will be dead, I will lose all chances of spending the rest of my natural life with my soul mate, my friends will be killed."

That's a lot of pressure, don't you think? But even so, look at the comparison for later:

"If I lose this battle, I will have died fighting to save my country, the people I love, and goodness everywhere. And my sacrifice may just give my friends the time they need to succeed where I can not."

Aragorn is arguably the best fighter of the 3rd Age. Not only is he physically powerful, but he has mentally combatted Sauron and come out on top. Also, he has strove with the above thoughts and pressures and still emerged victorious. These stresses alone are enough to break a normal man, but Aragorn cast aside all selfishness and marched to battle, pitying lesser men rather than scorning them, in a diversion that should have cost him everything.

But don't just look at my reasoning and agree with me, because where is the fun of that? Think of the stresses and psychological stuff going on with our heroes, and then relate to me [us] who you think is the best fighter given personal circumstances.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Say we work out that Hurin was 0.00001% better than his son. Does that mean that if they played out a one-on-one fight 100 times that Hurin would always win? Of course not.
Entirely true. Then again, figuring out that Hurin is "0.00001%" better than Turin is exactly what this thread is for, since he would be, by a small margin, a better fighter. :p

Not that I think Hurin is. I'd be inclined to give Turin the edge, but you're right that they both should be near the top (if not at the top).
Gil-Galad, Aragorn, Eowyn and Elindil
Leave Eowyn off and it might be a decent list. And saying "Elendil" would make it even better.
Eowyn may not seem that good
Because she's not good enough to be on that list.
but she did kill the Witch-King
She happened to be the one standing there when he was made vulnerable by Merry's magic sword.
not that many people could have done that
Rosie Cotton could've done that.

Stab the guy in the face with a sword while he's just sitting there. Who can't do that?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I agree, to a point, with LoDL about Eowyn. Although she's got the shield-maiden status going for her, her defeat of the Wikkie was almost a given.

1) she had the prophecy going for her. You can see my opinions on prophecies on this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11746&page=1) thread.

2) she had a shield. He had a big scary mace, yes, and yeah, it broke her arm, but physically, all she did was stop it. She didn't counter it, she didn't take it from him per force, she just stopped it.

3) his main weapon was fear. Her fear for her uncle's life (or at least honorable death) simply over-powered her fear of the big scary jerk.

Sure, she's great. I'm not denying it. Heck, Eowyn's one of my favorite characters. But she's certainly not one of the best fighters. One of the most stubborn, sure; but one of the most careless as well. Being an emotional and slightly suicidal gal doesn't qualify you to rank with Aragorn, Gil-Galad, or those other guys for best fighter status.

[Eye of the Divine]

Perhaps its better to think of it in sections:

Magic and Melee

In magic it'd be Gandalf and perhaps you should divide Melee up again into close range weponry and long range. But thats just my opinion..

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

By the 'we' I mentioned in "we work out that Hurin was 0.00001% better" I meant 'silly people'. :p

I would have thought the absurdity of such a conclusion was apparent.

You are totally right about Eowyn. Fantastic though she is, it is silly to consider her one of the very best fighters of the stories.

[Anguirel]

I am now addressing all the first-time readers of LOTR who were fooled by Eowyn's disguise.

As "Dernhelm", didn't Eowyn seem like the most deadly, suave, fearless and tremendous warrior we'd seen for quite a few pages?

Had she stayed Dernhelm, wouldn't we think the mysterious Rider's deed extremely impressive?

Aren't we slightly degrading her feat because we know who she is, her background, her inexperience...most damningly, her chromosomes?

"If some girl can do that, why, a turnip can."

Sounds to me like:

"If some hobbit can just toss in a ring, Sauron can be conquered by the average blue tit."

Don't belittle her achievement. She did finish Glorfindel's job and avenge the last King of Gondor. She did what we would have expected Aragorn to do; what was partly his ancestral duty to do. Alright, Master Holbylta rendered the Witch-king mortal; but it was Eowyn who rendered him dead.

Alright. That said, I do not think her the greatest fighter in the Lord of the Rings, a title I'd prefer to give to her brother...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Eowyn needs no defense, sir. It's just that she shouldn't really be on this thread. Although the mention of Pippin earlier was definitely sillier! :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Don't belittle her achievement.
I'm not. And I'm not saying she's not awesome solely because of gender. Quite honestly, my chromosomes are screaming that Galadriel's got the best fighter status.

She took one of the 3rd Age's best fighters (Boromir) and with thought alone messed him up.

In physical contests back in the old Valinorian days, she won all the time.

She had the power to guard and use a ring of power without curruption, and admits on her own that had she the One, she could have ousted Sauron. Even without that extra power, she still keeps Lothlorien safe and secret.

And if you want physical prowess, she marched to Mirkwood beside Celeborn, leading their troops, and personal vanquished Dol Goldur.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Admits on her own? :eek:

Didn't Treebeard say that he was the oldest thing in existence? You can't go by Galadriel's boasts, surely? Even with the Ring she wouldn't have defeated Sauron.

As for physical prowess.......mmm.....perhaps you'd care to point out some examples?

Merely curious, is all. :D

[lord of dor-lomin]

By the 'we' I mentioned in "we work out that Hurin was 0.00001% better" I meant 'silly people'.
So, everyone except for us, right Eomer?
I would have thought the absurdity of such a conclusion was apparent.
Something being "0.00001%" better isn't absurd if it's true. It's a super-duper small margin, but if proven, it still counts. ;)
As "Dernhelm", didn't Eowyn seem like the most deadly, suave, fearless and tremendous warrior we'd seen for quite a few pages?
No.

If Dernhelm had been ambushed by orcs and slain ten of them, then I'd start to form an opinion of Dernhelm as a fighter.

But that never happened. All Dernhelm did was ride a horse. That is hardly a case for calling Dernhelm a "tremendous warrior".
Aren't we slightly degrading her feat because we know who she is, her background, her inexperience...most damningly, her chromosomes?
Sheesh. You do realize that diminishing a woman's accomplishments does not make you sexist?
If some hobbit can just toss in a ring, Sauron can be conquered by the average blue tit.
Not a very good comparison since the hobbit did NOT toss the Ring in. He failed, same as an "average blue tit" would've failed.
That said, I do not think her the greatest fighter in the Lord of the Rings
Then why defend her? Did one of us say something that was false?
admits on her own that had she the One, she could have ousted Sauron
Ha ha! :D And you believed her?
You can't go by Galadriel's boasts, surely? Even with the Ring she wouldn't have defeated Sauron.
Yep. I've seen several threads that make that point.

Plus, even if she was capable, it wouldn't make her a good fighter, because she wouldn't be confronting Sauron one on one. It would be army versus army. Tolkien said in his letters (the famous letter 246, if I'm not mistaken) that one on one confrontation was not even contemplated.
She took one of the 3rd Age's best fighters (Boromir) and with thought alone messed him up.
Yes, with "thought"- not a sword.
she still keeps Lothlorien safe and secret
Which makes her a good fighter?
and personal vanquished Dol Goldur
Wasn't it mainly the huge army of elves that took care of Dol Guldur?

[The Saucepan Man]

And if you want physical prowess, she marched to Mirkwood beside Celeborn, leading their troops, and personal vanquished Dol Goldur.Actually, it was Celeborn and the Elvish warriors under his command who defeated the forces of Dol Guldur. Galadriel brought down the walls once Celeborn had dealt with its denizens, and I suspect that was accomplished more by her mental powers than her physical prowess.

That's not to denigrate Galadriel's physical abilities, but we really don't have enough to go on to assess her ability as a warrior. And Celeborn gets a bad enough press as it is - primarily from his wife ( :p ;) ) - so let's give credit where it's due.

[Gil-Galad]

Speaking of the Battle under the trees... i thought that it was cool when Thranduil and Celeborn met in the midst of the forest and they joined forces together againest the orcs

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Allow me to insert a big wink. Remember, I'm not saying that I think Galadriel was the best fighter, I'm saying that if we're going by what chromosomes are saying, that that's what I would be saying.

The vague idea was that you would simply assume I knew what I was talking about and not make me defend my hastily written post. ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

The following is an excerpt from a PM between myself and lord of dor-lomin. In the following quote, I was defending my post about Galadriel, as well as making a point about Eowyn:

The idea of the post was that nobody is denying that Eowyn is awesome solely because of sex, we're denying that she's the best fighter solely because she's not. But then again, why not listen to estrogen once in a while? The idea of the thread is best fighter, which automatically makes most of the answers testosterone-induced. "Wow, he's the best because he killed forty trolls!" It's like hanging out with a bunch of middle aged hunters and fishermen. They all judge who is the best by the size of the kill, not by the difficulty in getting to it in the first place.I thought it applicable enough to this discussion to post.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So.....Pippin has a really good shot at being called Best Fighter? Because he's so small and weak which made killing hard for him.

That's like saying I'm the best guitarist in the world because I can play some decent tunes despite finding the actual playing really difficult. Unlike, say, Eric Clapton, for whom playing guitar comes so easily.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Pippen's definately not the best fighter, doofus, and you know it. You're just pushing buttons now. ;)

I was thinking more the differentiation between Faramir and Boromir. Most people would classify them as tied somewhere. But Boromir was always the fighter, whereas Faramir did not love the sword for it's sharpness, and all the rest of that long metaphor. In order to boost his way to Boromir's level (which he did, taking over his dead brother's position), Faramir had to cope with his daddy-issues, with the death of his brother, with the fact that he doesn't even like to fight, and when you look at it in the end, he's still an awesome fighter.

I'm not saying that somebody who was born to fight (or anything else really) is not fantastic. I'm just saying that somebody who worked their butt off to get to the same level... I think is automatically "better".

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ok, but Eowyn is nowhere near the level of the others on the list.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Sure, she's great. I'm not denying it. Heck, Eowyn's one of my favorite characters. But she's certainly not one of the best fighters. One of the most stubborn, sure; but one of the most careless as well. Being an emotional and slightly suicidal gal doesn't qualify you to rank with Aragorn, Gil-Galad, or those other guys for best fighter status.
Remember ^ ?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Why are you still talking about her in post #79?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I was talking about her only because it chanced that she was the example I used. The PM was more to encourage discussion on judgement by use of other means besides kill count.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So you're being bold and saying that Faramir was a better fighter than Boromir?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm saying that although Faramir could probably beat Boromir one time out of two (yes, I'm saying they're STILL tied), that because Faramir had to battle himself, and not just his enemies, to get that far, that I think he deserves more credit.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

If you want to question the original object of the fight then I'm in agreement with you! :)

If Faramir had to battle more demons (literal or otherwise) than Boromir then perhaps he was the better fighter.

However, I'm pretty sure we were always talking about physical hand-to-hand warrior combat, and I'd be happy to say that they were equally good.

And who says that Boromir didn't have his personal battles? He didn't take a wife, did he? That leads me to speculate. He clearly wasn't 'normal' in that sense (please realise that 'normal' here is slightly derogatory). How did that go down in Gondor? No siree Bob, it wasn't plain-sailing for Boro.