The role of Fate in Middle Earth

[Mithadan]

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The hand of fate is occaisionally (and some will undoubtedly argue frequently) in Middle Earth. Fate for purposes of this thread shall be defined as certain events being preordained, that matters flow inexorably and unavoidably to the culmination of the event. Fate is not prophecy, though the concepts are related. Prophecy is the ability to foresee a future event, though Galadriel suggests that prophecy is less certain and may only be fulfilled if one turns out of his way to avoid it.

How does fate work in Middle Earth? What events were &quot;fated&quot;? Who is governed by fate? Feanor? Turin? Frodo? Gollum? Aragorn?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

I think everything is governed by fate, it is inescapable. I believe that in ME, Arda, etc. everyone has a destiny that was preordained by Ilùvatar. It may seem as though a certain person is going against what Ilùvatar said but this is not true, as he said, it is only tributary to his glory and in the end but part of his design. It might feel like fate isn't predestined because no one can see the future, but certain entities can. Manwë for one and Namo is another. Even then certain things aren't &quot;revealed&quot; to them. Revealed was a good word to choose because this implies that someone else does know. Ilùvatar is the most likely candidate, normally we would associate omniscience to one such as he. He created everything so it should be safe to assume that he knows how everything will be. So if someone, even a Supreme Being knows everything then fate exists, for everything and there are no exceptions.

Therefore Feanor was destined to create the silmarills, the silmarills were destined to be stolen, lost, destroyed, Aragorn was destined to become king, Frodo was destined to come into possession of the ring, and so on.

It may seem like someone is going to do something and end up not doing it, but if Ilùvatar is omniscient, then he knows this is going to come to be and it becomes destiny merely because it can be no other way.

A little philosophical, I don't know if I explained my point well enough to understand. If I did, then that is great, if not, post again I guess.



"It seems fate is not without a sense of irony."</p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

I agree.Gandalf himself affirmed that ME was under a guiding hand,saying to Frodo of the Ring's finding:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Behind that there was something else at work,beyond any design of the Ring-maker.I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring,and not by its maker.In which case you also were meant to have it.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Meant by fate,or Ilúvatar.They are one and the same.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladun</A> at: 2/8/01 10:11:52 pm

[Gilthalion]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

If, for the purpose of discussion, we make the reasonable assumption that Illuvatar=God, then the Christian debates on the nature of Fate/Omnipotence vs. Free Will come into play.

The theological question: If God is all powerful and foreknows all, then how is Free Will possible?

I have an answer that settles it for me (in my own limited understanding).

Let's head out to the baseball field for a moment...

Babe Ruth steps up to the plate. The unruly Yankees crowd jeers the great player, for he has lately been in a slump. But the Babe promised the dying boy, listening now on the radio, that he would hit a home run especially for him. So as the crowd calls out various insults, the Sultan of Swat points his bat high into the stands over left field. The young pitcher sneers, throws his pitch, and the Babe knocks it right into the stands where he pointed.

Now, the Babe did not know what pitch would next come his way. But having been a pitcher himself, he knew every pitch that could possibly come across that plate and what he would have to do with it to knock it where he wanted.

Similarly (IMHO), God, in order that we would have free will, has limited his own power, but being God, can take whatever we throw at him, and knock it right into the prophetic.

Thus, while not constraining us to behave as automatons, he nevertheless is a player himself, and like Illuvatar, can make the Destiny that is His Will come forth, no matter what Morgoth may sing to the contrary. The songs of Tolkien's creation were powerful themes. The actions of the creatures were variations on those themes.

But the Song was still Illuvatar's.

I would argue that this was Tolkien's understanding. I don't think we are talking about Fate, as such. I think, rather, it is Destiny (If I may make a distinction.). Thus, we are not Fated to decide one thing or another. But we are Destined for a particular end according to our decisions.

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[amyrlis]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Good post Gilthalion!

Fate: the principle or determining cause or will by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do

Destiny: a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency

(From Merriam-Webster Online)


After reading these definitions I would have to say that Fate plays more of a role than Destiny in Middle Earth. It does not seem that there is a 'predetermined course of events'. As Gilthalion states, beings of ME have their own free will. Iluvatar, or the powers that be, take what is thrown at them and then choose to intervene or not. By intervene, I don't mean how the Valar participated in the War of Wrath, I mean influence. Or, in the case of Earendil (haven't read his story in ages, so please forgive if I'm off here) making it the voyage to the West. The paths were closed to all, but, by the powers that be, Earendil made it. I would say that many characters in Middle Earth were 'fated' for certain greatness or doom. The prime example is Tuor. He was 'led' by Ulmo to his destiny. But I would also say there was much prophecy or forsight regarding characters too. For example, when Feanor and his sons took their oath, they sealed their doom - this was known (forseen?) by all. I don't have any references with me, so I can't provide any hard evidence. Wasn't it 'prophecised' that this oath would drive them and be their demise? Also, Morgoth always had an unreasonable fear of Turgon. Could he 'forsee' that from Turgon would come the last hope of the Elves and his end? Was there something in the Music that he just couldn't remember? Could it be that all the answers were in the Music, but the Ainur just didn't catch it while they were singing? Or was it just an intuition, a hunch? Another example, if my memory serves me, it seems that those who knew Tuor during his life before Gondolin knew that he had a certain 'destiny' that would be fulfilled. Could they have forseen his marraige to Idril and the voyage of Earendil? Also, Tuor had always been moved by the name of Turgon and ever sought information about him. Did he forsee his destiny and how it was mingled with Turgon's? Or did Ulmo 'plant' the name in his thoughts?

I'm kind of rambling now so I'll sign off. Just some random thoughts for a Friday lunch hour!

-amyrlis</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

In an attempt to draw this discussion from a generalized discussion of fate/doom/foresight to a Middle Earth specific discussion, I quote the following:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and have no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Valar, which is as fate to all things else...&quot; Silmarillion, p.22 <hr></blockquote>

Now this suggests that while men have free will, elves and the Valar and all else does not, at least to the extent that any matter derives from the Music. Two points. First, the Music was interrupted or prematurely terminated due to Melkor's disruption (which, as part of the Music is also &quot;as fate&quot;). Second, the vision of Arda which followed also ended early (before the coming of the Man?).

Does this mean Men have free will and elves, etc. do not? What happens when the races interact? Perhaps men are caught up in fate or doom when they deal with elves or the Valar (or even Maiar such as Gandalf or Sauron). Assuming the Music was broad brush strokes of fate, are the details subject to free will? What happens when history goes beyond the point where the Music ended? Do elves, etc. then have free will?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Voronwe]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Perhaps the most revealing passage about fate in the Silmarillion:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but that they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.<hr></blockquote>

It seems then, that the fates of Elves and even those of the Valar themselves were foresung in the Music of the Ainur. They could not be changed, except perhaps by Eru himself. There was one exception - Men. Having been given the gift of Free Will by Illuvatar, it seems they could choose their own destiny. If the lives of Men were fated, it wasn't in the Music.

What we don't know, however, is how much fate was actually in the Music. Is fate a rigid definition of what will happen, in minutest detail, from beginning to end? Or is it more of a loose framework which history simply fits into. Personally, I prefer to believe in the latter.

I expect many of the great events in the history of Arda were fated to take place - The Two Trees and their destruction, the making of the Silmarils, the Oath of Feanor, and the Nirnaeth to name a few. The details, however, would have been left undecided - up to chance. The outcome might have been pre-ordained, but the route to it was not.

Were the lives of Men fated? Certainly the tragic life of Turin seems to be. There are several references made in the tale to Turin's 'Doom'. But I'm inclined to think that the 'Doom' was due to the Malice of Morgoth, just as the fate of Tuor might have been due to the guidance of Ulmo. Of course, it could be that the destinies of Turin and Tuor were fixed because of their involvement with the elves, whose lives were fated. I don't think it can be proved either way.

Most of this (if not all of it) is the merest speculation - buy hey, isn't that what philosophy's all about?

Edit: I seem to have missed Mithadan's post there - he seems to have covered many of my points already. Oh well.

-Voronwë
<font size="2">"For Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end."</p>[i]Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000143>Voronwe</A> at: 2/9/01 5:16:20 pm

[Zoe]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Gilthalion: The Christian concept of fate and free will at the same time, as far as I know, is based on the idea that God exists outside of the universe (including time), and therefore can say exactly what will happen and when, so in a way, we are fated to do certain things. On the other hand, we exists inside the universe and time and can make our own decisions, although God knows in advance what our choices will be. It's not about limiting power.

(At least, I think that's how it goes. But then, I've never had any formal theological training, and I could be wrong.)

Just thought the side note could be of interest. You can get back to Fate in the ME now. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Fate in Me was, I think, a set of predetermined or 'fated' circumstances and choices. However, what one did with those circs, or which choice or decision one made ultimately affected the events in ME.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[enep]

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Mandos

Wasn't the fate in Middle-Earth, although to some extent (controlled) by Illuvatar, the 'responsibility' of Mandos? Or could he only percieve/propecise fate? I don't have anything really long and interesting to say here <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

- enep</p>

[KayQy]

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Fate vs. Free will

I might be just repeating stuff here, but I think that there's a difference between knowing what will happen and making something in particular happen, and there's a mixture of both in ME (and IRL, too). Eru, or whoever was the &quot;something else at work,&quot; may have merely known about the goblins capturing Bilbo and the dwarves in the mountains, but he may have guided his hand in the dark to where the ring was, for example. Or to go back a bit, Thorin may have asked Gandalf for advice on a fourteenth member of his own free will, but knowing that he would ask, Eru could have caused the memory of Bilbo to come up in Gandalf's mind.

The days are fated to be filled with marvels.</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Regarding Zoe's side-note:

I'm not sure we're really talking about different things.

God (Eru/Illuvatar in the Silmarillion) in Eternity certainly is separate from Creation, which exists in Time.

I recall that the ancient Hebrew concept for Eternity is &quot;all of time at once.&quot; This certainly is a difficult concept to grasp. Of course, we really can't. But it is at the heart of the Free Will vs. Omnipotence argument. By the act of Creation in Time, God has created something other than Himself, which by definition imposes a limit (that is: Something other than God).

The miraculous/magical occurs when power is exerted to overturn the course of Time and the order of Creation. The fact that God does not impose his will, but rather works his will through our choices is a self-imposed limit to his power through the act of creating the whole set up. The fact that he can move outside of this self-imposed boundary to effect the miraculous is evidence of the Creator working his will (rather than scrapping Creation and starting over).

Discussions of this nature, matters beyond the mathematical, break down in talks of this sort because words (even Elvish ones I imagine) are too clumsy and rough a set of tools for describing the infinitely sublime.

Nevertheless, we CAN &quot;feel&quot; it, or intuit it when description fails. For example, I had my distinction between FATE and DESTINY precisely backwards, evidently. Yet, I think everyone grasped what I was trying to convey!

This is another of those matters that sets Tolkien's work so far above the rest of the genre, indeed, above all but the loftiest and greatest works of history, perhaps to even rank among them. Tolkien taps into matters such as these, and we understand it and feel that there is something &quot;True&quot; in his work that transcends ordinary fiction.



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[Orald]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

I agree with Zoe. But no sense in arguing the point that God can limit himself with his own omnipotence, it is not necissarily impossible, but it is I guess undefined, like have 0/0 it isn't 0 and it isn't infinity it isn't and it is everything. Can God create a boulder that is to heavy for him to move? No one can answer that question besides God.

Back to the original discussion, which seems to have a lot to do with our world. I think everything is forseen by Ilùvatar, an omniscient being. And being all knowing Ilùvatar knows every event which has occurred and will occur. Just because something didn't happen in the music doens't mean that it isn't known by him, it just means that it isn't known to the Valar.

Free will and fate are not opposites, they can coexist. We have free will. But God or Ilùvatar, which ever you prefer, can &quot;look into the future&quot;, see what choices we have made, come back in time and make up a predetermined course of events that cannot be changed. More or less that is how I see it done.

"It seems fate is not without a sense of irony."</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 616

Mith, you are askin a question that can not be answered, or if it may be, it can give only personal opinions with ambivalency of possible belief or rejection. I mean that when all the history of the ME (except the last ages, when fading of the Firstborn approaches it's fulfilment) concerns mostly elves, and those have no answer. And I doubt JRRT himself had a clear opinion about that. C.f.

though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days

with

Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

Comparing this two quotes one may come to think that Men a beloved ones, truly Children of Eru, and elves and Ainur are not, but that would be false idea, and the truth is simple - no one can know all the purposes of the One


Now this suggests that while men have free will, elves and the Valar and all else does not, at least to the extent that any matter derives from the Music.

Free will is expressed rather by a gift of choice than by an ability to leave the circles of the world. It is true that all is predicted in Music, but it is true as well that
but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern

So comes that any thing made comes in the end to be the praise of Illuvatar.


Now for my personal opinion:

Children, as well as Valar, live in time, which means all that befell them comes as a chain of different moments, so their experience is limited. Eru, who is out of time, sees it in all it's length and knows all things that were, are and are still to come. One can cocnclude that, as all that is to come is already known by Eru, as he is experiencing it as we experience our present , there is no place for a free will. But it may be argued this way - to watch somebody doing something is not the same as to make him do it, is not it so? And, as well, see the quote above, about music woving everything into it's pattern

[Orald]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Well said H-I. I think we have about the same opinion, but in situations such as this, it is hard to tell for sure.

"It seems fate is not without a sense of irony."</p>

[draggonklaw]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

We've seen a lot of very good comments on the idea of fate in ME, now can anyone give some examples?

</p>

[Orald]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Oh, and Gilthalion, Zoe said Omniscinece, not Omnipotence, there is a difference between the two.

An example, well, everything was fated in ME, so everything is an example, even if some things weren't known to Namo.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[draggonklaw]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

About examples of fate...
I was going to suggest Bombadil's &quot;just happening&quot; to be out and about near Old Man Willow when frodod and the gang were in trouble...but then again, I think I remember reading where Tom was informed that they were coming.
And then I was going to suggest Bilbo &quot;just happening&quot; to make his way down into the cave where Gollum was, and &quot;just happening&quot; happening to think of the perfect riddle...but then again, I think I remember reading how it was the ring working in that whole scenario.
Well, I did find a statement about fate in the Silmarillion in &quot;The Fifth Battle&quot;:
&quot;Yet fate saved the sons of Feanor, and though all were wounded none were slain...&quot; (p. 235, bottom). I've got to keep reading on to see how it all works out. I'd still be interested to see some examples that you guys can come up with.


</p>

[draggonklaw]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

I think I found a real one. Wasn't it fate that led Wormtoungue to throw the palantir at Gandalf? Because that happened, Pippin was led to look in it, and Sauron's attention was led in that direction (and away from Frodo and the ring). thereafter, Sauron must have been bending his thoughts toward the west. Maybe he thought he saw the hobbit he was looking for? Anyway, It seems very non-coincidental.

</p>

[KayQy]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Can God create a boulder that is to heavy for him to move? <hr></blockquote>
I think free will is that boulder.

You know, with all this Fate and Destiny stuff, I don't think anyone's yet mentioned Doom. It's through Tolkien that I was impressed with the inherent sense of fate in that word (way beyond C3PO's constant &quot;We´re doomed,&quot; in Star Wars).

But tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?</p>

[HerenIstarion]

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Can God create a boulder that is too heavy for him to move?

The matter of free will is not a boulder in a sence the given quote suggests. C.S.Lewis gave a very fitting example of God - Creature relation in that aspect. Imagine some given mother, who, naturally, wants her son's room to be kept in order. On the other hand, she wants him too be independent and act freely. So the duty of making up a room is pronounced a voluntary service. Her son may stop making it up immediatly. So, her will is not fulfilled - room is disordered, yet her is fulfilled - her son expresses his own free will. The general aim is to have a situation, when service is voluntary, yet room is in order

[MIstari]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

I thought that when the world of Middle Earth was created Illutavar (something like that) ordained for his creation to have free will. If this is the case it makes it hard for fate to play a role seeming as the people of ME control their own destinies.

However in the action of LoTR their is a thin line all the characters walk along which would be so easy to disrupt; eg. The hobbits getting caught at the ford or on weathertop or Sauron leaving just one or two guards in Mount Doom. I believe that Illutavar or even Manwe has a plan for ME and gives aid to the characters in achieveing their destinies rather than setting it aforehand

Then they all turned to the newcomer and cried, "From whence do you hail stranger." And he replied, pilboy@hotmail.com </p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

This is a difficult issue. The Silmarillion expressly states that men have free will &quot;unlike&quot; elves and the Valar. But the extent to which the actions of elves and the Valar are governed by fate is very murky. It seems that the music of the Ainur set forth at least a skeletal outline of the creation and workings of Arda and that the music, including Melkor's disruption, is incorporated into the unfolding of the history of Arda. Then there is the &quot;vision&quot; of Arda which was made by Eru after the Music. This vision ended early, either just before the coming of Elves or the awakening of Men.

Some portion of Arda's history is &quot;recorded&quot; by the music and the vision. It appears to be &quot;set&quot; or preordained. However, it is questionable: (1) how complete the &quot;pre-recorded history was; and (2) whether such history is &quot;set&quot; even after the vision concluded. In my opinion, the Music and the Vision created broad brush strokes with details filed in by the free will of individuals and that elves are much more bound up by fate than men. Thus it was &quot;set&quot; that Melkor would interfere with the history of the world and would attempt to corrupt elves and men, but exactly how it would happen was not set. Also, when certain events occur, a &quot;stream of fate&quot; is created, i.e. Feanor rebels &gt; Noldor go into exile &gt; Wars of Beleriand &gt; the Noldor's inevitable defeat &gt; Valar intervene. This allows some events to be predictable, so Feanor can &quot;foresee&quot; that the Valar will intervene some time in the future, Ulmo can foresee the need for Gondolin and the coming of someone like Tuor, etc.

An additional theory: the free will of men is reduced when they interact with elves/Valar/Maiar so that their actions are more &quot;fated&quot; or predictable. Thus in the cases of Beren, Turin, Tuor, and even Aragorn and Frodo, their interactions with elves, Morgoth, Sauron result in them being bound up in &quot;streams of fate&quot;.

I disagree with some of the posts above which suggest that Eru took active part in the events of Middle Earth. Other than when his aid is called upon by Manwe, it seems he does not (thus Eru criticizes the decision to summon the elves to Valinor and grieves at the actions of men). Middle Earth is not our world and our theology does not directly apply. JRRT says

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief&quot; Lettrers #269 <hr></blockquote>

JRRT here means that ethics and morals apply (thus orcs are not irredeemable -- the subject of the quoted letter). There is good and evil and all should strive to act ethically and there are consequences when one fails to do so ( the Noldor's defeat in Beleriand, the assumption of power of the Stewards after the prideful actions of the last king, Boromir's attempt to seize the Ring, etc.). But in Letters, JRRT expressly states that Iluvatar does not enter Arda and distinguishes Arda and its history from Christian &quot;mythology&quot; (his word not mine).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 481</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Interesting post, Mith. So are you saying then that when Gandalf says, <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.'<hr></blockquote>...or Aragorn says,<blockquote>Quote:<hr> `He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think that it is our part to drive him one way or the other. Nor do I think that we should succeed, if we tried. There are other powers at work far stronger.'<hr></blockquote>...that they are not obliquely referring to Eru/Ilúvatar? What about Gandalf's (so-called <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ) &quot;enhancement&quot; and return? Doesn't that constitute direct intervention?

</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 193</TD><TD><img src=http://www.bestanimations.com/Science/Biology/DNA/DNA-02.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

UUUUUNNNNNDDDDEEEERRRRHHHHHIIIIILLLLL!!! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 482</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

RRRRRÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉDDDDDDDD!!!!

Trying times for Underhill = no chance to post or chat. <img src=frown.gif ALT=":(">

Where's Elrond when I need him? I could sure use a bunk at the Last Homely House right about now.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 642</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

Actually Underhill, both quotes to an extent are consonant with my general theory. Bilbo, living in the Shire is relatively unaffected by fate. Then he involves himself in the affairs of Gandalf, a Maia whose purposes though then hidden are now clear, and comes into the vicinity of the Ring which is being sought for and called out to by its master, Sauron, another Maia. Bilbo goes from a mundane &quot;human&quot; existence to being wrapped up in the affairs of Maiar and Elves and becomes subject to &quot;fate&quot;.

Similarly, Frodo carries the Ring which is again wrapped up in the concerns and affairs of Maiar and the Elves. He too becomes subject to &quot;fate&quot;.

When men become involved in the events surrounding beings subject to fate, whether by joining the Noldor in the Wars of Beleriand, or the wars against Sauron, some get wrapped up in fate. Arguably, the history of Numenor is, in its entirety, an example of this. The Numenoreans dwell on an island created and gifted to them by the Valar and their lives are extended beyond the normal limits of men. Perhaps the history which follows is inexorable, set into motion by the acts of the Valar.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

But did he start associating with Gandalf or Gandalf with him. You are only looking at a partial fate, partial free will type scenario. Being that I think free will and fate exist together, I may be blind to your point. But Bilbo was picked by Gandalf, because fate had a role in the matter. It was fate that led Gandalf to Bilbo, Bilbo to choose Frodo as heir,Frodo to take the ring to the Cracks of Doom, and Gollum to bite his gum his finger off.

I just see your perspective Mith. Do you believe that fate only exists when great deeds have been done? Nothing much happens in the Shire, but I don't think that its inhabitants are beyond fate.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 427</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
That quote ...

Beautiful discussion.

Excuse me if I missed the exact reference , but where in the Silm is it said that the Valar and Elves don't have free will and Men do?

I always love seeing things I completely missed.
Especially philosophical principles of great import - that show just how dense I can be.


lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/23/01 10:36:40 am

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 645</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That quote ...

Its quoted above and can be found at p. 22, Houghton Mifflin Edition (original issuance not the Second or illustrated editions).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 484</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That quote ...

I'm intrigued by your theory, Mithadan, but I want to know more. So are you saying that the guiding or directing force behind the &quot;fated&quot; stream of events is not Ilúvatar? If it is him, then doesn't this constitute direct involvement of some kind? If not, then who? The Valar (i.e. Manwë)?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/23/01 12:25:37 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 789


But in Letters, JRRT expressly states that Iluvatar does not enter Arda and distinguishes Arda and its history from Christian mythology


That may imply that Illuvatar won't enter Arda as an incarnate, showing no parallels with Christian mithology in that point.

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 646</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That quote ...

Struggling to strictly interpret JRRT's words, it appears that &quot;fate&quot; was established by the Music and possibly by the Vision. Although arguably the Music ultimately derives from Iluvatar, JRRT stresses that the Valar possessed free will in the making of the Music. Indeed, he notes that here, his mythology diverges significantly from Christian theology. In Ainulindale, Melkor exercises his free will by creating disruption in the Music, rendering the world marred from its very beginning, while in Judeo-Christian tradition it is Adam's acceptance of the apple in violation of the dictates of God that creates the &quot;Fall&quot;. See Letters, #212 (fascinating letter from a philosophical standpoint). Thus in the case of Arda, the marring and the resulting evil is inherent to the nature of the world. There was no &quot;Eden&quot; in Middle Earth.

Thus the Ainur possess free will outside of Arda but are bound into Arda's history and &quot;fate&quot; when they enter as Valar and Maiar. The stream of history or fate derives from the Music and the Vision and does not result from the direct intervention of Iluvatar into the affairs of Arda.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 121</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That quote ...

So Bilbo finding the ring could be one of those things woven into the music.

But tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 649</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That quote ...

Theoretically it could, but it seems that the Music and the Vision did not create a full history of Arda, but rather stopped at about the time the Elves awoke.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 486</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That quote ...

I always thought (and the letter you cited seems to agree) that the Music created the complete history of the world, but the Vision revealed only its beginning to the Ainur. Anyway, we're back to the same tricky conundrum. As you point out, Mithadan, Ilúvatar exists outside of Arda, and therefore outside of time. To say that he created Arda and then &quot;let it run&quot; without his interference has no meaning in this context.

But putting that sáma-bending problem aside, I'll point out another instance where Ilúvatar seems to have intervened: what about the little episode with Aulë and the Dwarves?

</p>

[Imp]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 28</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
....

I always thought Manwe governed by the will of Ilúvatar, he is constantly deep in thought, maybe 'speaking' to Eru. So wouldn't this be intervening?

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 797

it was made by Eru, but He is not in it

Finrod to Andreth


They [those of “the Old Hope – H-I] say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end

How could Eru enter into the thing that he has made, and than which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?
He is already in it, as well as outside’ said Finrod’ but inded the “in-dwelling” and the “out-living” are not in the same mode’
‘truly’ said Andreth.’So may Eru in that mode be present in Ea that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is thing wholly different

Some additions to strenghten allusions of christian theology. I have a feeling (but at that personal) that JRRT rejected those only when directly asked (if not blamed) about the subject. But being a Christian, having a Christian mentality and background he (maybe sometimes unintentionally) always put it there. There were some interesting note of his in the letters about subcreation, and his world being his part, his addition into creative act of the One. Compare “of Aule and Yavanna". Are not we, all of us, smaller Aules offering our creations to Creator?

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 663</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: ....

Imp: Eru intervenes when asked by Manwe. Thus the drowning of Numenor. Aule's creation of the dwarves occurred early enough to be foretold by the Music. Clearly the actions of the Valar are, to some extent, influenced by fate, notwithstanding whether the Music was comprehensive or not.

Someone questioned whether the Music ended prematurely or just the vision. The vision clearly did. The Music? Not entirely sure. It seems to have ended earlier than planned and was likely less complete than it could have been. The disruption caused by Morgoth made many of the Ainur stop singing in dismay. This may support the &quot;broad brush&quot; concept of fate resulting from the Music. Or it may not. This is just an idea or theory which may or may not be correct.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1116</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: ....

If I may approach this at a very prosaic level, I have always thought that JRRT hits both the free-will note and the fate note very heavily at the end of the Council of Elrond:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise form their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the great. Who of all the Wise could have forseen it? Or if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?<hr></blockquote>
If this informs the discussion at all (and I'm hardly sure that it does) it would be useful to render that word Wise back into Elvish. A quick check at Ardalambion suggests that all of the Elvish roots for Wise lead us straight back to the Noldor, the Sindar and the Istari. (The roots being ngol, thin and is, respectively. That is, I take Elrond to be saying that the Shire-folk, mortals, operate outside the certain knowledge of the Wise. This might, indeed, back up the distinction between the fated experience of the firstborn and the free experience of the followers suggested (I think first in thread) by Mithadan.
That said, what of appointed? It does not appear in the Ardlambion glossaries. An OED search demonstrates that in the King James Edition it does have the kind of significance that would correspond with divine preordination: Num. ix. 2
Keepe the Passe~ouer at his appointed season.
(Would the Catholic Prof. use CoE language? How not?)
So if that ain’t equivocal evidence, I don’t know what would be. See if it feeds your conversation (which is already over my head).
g.


</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 665</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: ....

Interesting linguistic analysis (and a bit over my head as I'm not up on my Quenya). Elrond's comment that the task is appointed to Frodo may in some way support my thesis that Frodo, a mortal, being in possession of the Ring, an artifact created by a Maia, is wound up in the fate which binds Valar/Maiar/elves, while your analysis would seem to support the idea that a Hobbit would ordinarily not be affected by fate.

On the other hand, we may be reading too much into this. While I would not put it beyond JRRT to construct an etymological foundation which would result in his languages supporting a conception of his world, I suspect that this would carry his renowned attention to detail to an extreme.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 494</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

I get the sense that we're dealing with a Chicken or the Egg sort of question. You could say that Frodo is caught up in a stream of Fate because the Ring came to him – or you could say that the Ring came to Frodo because it was fated to do so.

If we conceive of Ilúvatar as an omniscient Creator who exists outside the bounds of time, then the apparent paradox of foreordination vs. free will may not be a paradox at all. While the mortals (used in the broadest sense to include elves, who are technically only very long lived and not truly immortal) of ME may have free will, Ilúvatar is able to understand every possible permutation of their choices and order the world according to his will as its author. I can see a playful metaphor in Tolkien’s construction – Tolkien as the all-knowing, all powerful “author” of the tale of Arda; his characters, bound within the circles of the world, sometimes given guidance by their creator, but also with a “mind of their own”, but with Tolkien in turn able to account for any “decision” they might make and alter his world where necessary (without regard to the flow of time within the created world) to make it all consonant with his will. If we say that the destinies of Elves, Maiar, Valar, et al are governed by fate, how far do we take this notion? Is all that they do foreordained, even down to what they say? If Gandalf chose Bilbo as his burglar, then, wasn’t Bilbo, by extension, chosen by Fate? Tricky, tricky.

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1118</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

MU,
I was reminded of my favorite saying of Frodo's:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Go not to the Elves for council, for they will say both no and yes.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
when I read your post.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If we say that the destinies of Elves, Maiar, Valar, et al are governed by fate, how far do we take this notion? Is all that they do foreordained, even down to what they say?<hr></blockquote>
If elves are merely a mouthpiece of the Ainulindale, it must be a highly equivocal song. Said Gildor:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, and all courses may run ill.<hr></blockquote>
The expression &quot;may&quot; in the phrase &quot;all courses may run ill&quot; could speak to uninformed members of a closed system but I think that the high lineage of the speaker instead suggests that the system, whether open or closed, contains many possible permutations.
g.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 50</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

Which brings us back to Babe Ruth...

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 501</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

The singing of the music seems to encapsulate our discussion. Look:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.<hr></blockquote>
Just a quick note: This seems to indicate that the Music was complete, at least in outline form. To continue:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'<hr></blockquote>Okay. This looks on the face of it like the big man is inviting the Ainur to exercise their free will. He even smiles like an indulgent father the first time Melkor disrupts the song. But also note that he intervenes when necessary to make sure the Music ends up the way he wants it to. Reading on:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'<hr></blockquote>Okay, so -- free will and the omniscient and unshakeable will of Ilúvatar (i.e., Fate), coexisting and not contradictory. Finally, at the risk of over-quoting, Ilúvatar perhaps hints that &quot;free will&quot; is really only illusory in the context of the grand design:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'<hr></blockquote>


</p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 55</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

Exactly! The pitcher can throw whatever he wants, but the Babe is going to hit it right into the right field stands!

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Hand of Fate

What was the Babe's percentage during his best season?


</p>

[Joy]

Reviving this thread yet again. Very interesting indeed. Good job all!

[Jessica Jade]

At times,in The Lord of the Rings, the narrow escapes of Frodo and his companions can seem too coincidental, as if no matter what they do wrong (or right) the result is still the same; someone always turns up just in the nick of time to save the day.
A good point was made on the finding of the Ring by Bilbo...fate definitely plays a role, and affects the characters to a certain extent-just as fate in your own life does.
However, the plot is not ruled by fate; Tolkien emphasizes at the most crucial points that the characters control their own actions and destiny. Most of these instances involve Frodo and the ring. For instance, on the top of Amon Hen, Frodo feels two powers striving within him, but in the end, he is free to make his own choice.

[doug*platypus]

Goodness me, it's dusty inside this thread! Finally something as confusing as my wondering whether this forum actually exists in four dimensions, or whether I've somehow stepped out of reality, or if reality needs to be redefined or if anyone can explain... ah...

Oh, yeah, I think the Bilbo/Gandalf analogy is excellent. Interesting, isn't it that Bilbo is drawn into the Fate of the Ring almost as the anti-Gollum. The hobbit-like Gollum becomes embroiled in the affairs of the "great", and soon after Bilbo does, in a way redeeming his kind, or possibly assisting the end result of Smeagol's life, the destruction of the Ring. The quote from Silmarillion P22 lends us to believe that Men, and hobbits by association or assumption, are exempt from Fate.

The purpose of Eru is not made clear even to the Valar, not even completely to Mandos. In my opinion, this is the condition that makes the co-existence of Fate and Free Will possible. Where someone, unexpected by the Valar, acts outside of Fate and are seen to have Free Will, I still think that they are accomplishing the purpose of Iluvatar. Bilbo was completely free in his decision to follow the Dwarves. He is never said to have been influenced by a divine power. But if you believe that he was created by Eru, then surely he has been made in such a mould that he will be likely to do as he did and join the adventure, without being influenced by outside forces.

Several times in the Silmarillion, the gods such as Ulmo will put thoughts into the heads of the Elves or the Atani, giving them words to speak or actions to follow. It is not this way with Bilbo. I think that he is exempt from Fate, but that his Free Will has been given to him by Iluvatar. He accomplishes the purpose of Iluvatar on his own, without the power of suggestion. So he is above the control of the Valar, but still a part of the Theme of Iluvatar. Given the nature of the Themes in the Ainulindale, which ordained events up until the end of time, I think it would be wrong to say that nothing happened without Iluvatar's foreknowledge of it. He did not make Bilbo do what he did, but was aware that it would happen.

[HerenIstarion]

Sweeping the dust once again

[Mithalwen]

Teh twist of fate in the Lord of the Rings that interests me - and ties in to this week's chapter which I shall have to read incase it provides enlightenment - is the arrival of the "unsummoned" participants at the Council of Elrond. Gimli and Legolas' timely arrivals may be attributed to the unfolding of events - the visit of Sauron's emissary and Gollum's escape. Boromir is a different matter. HE was summoned by a dream but the fact that it was Faramir received the dream first and more frequently might indicate that Boromir was defying fate by taking his brother's place. This raises various interesting questions. Because I can't help thinking that Boromir's "treachery"was vital for the success of the quest ( a possible paralel would be Judas Iscariot! - whose betrayal was a vital component to bring about the sacrifice of the Messiah and so universal redemption - though I am a better Tolkien scholar than I am a theologian so I will get back to the point :D).

If Faramir had been part of the Fellowship there would have been a different discussion at Parth Galen or none at all. Either they would have all carried on together towards Mordor and would have not stopped so long - though it is quite possible that they would have merely delayed rather than avoided an encounter ith the Uruks. Or they would have divided - if Aragorn was speaking honestly when he says that he would have gone on with Frodo, Sam and Gimli - and there would have entailed a different argument if Merry and Pippin refused to comply.

This might have given Frodo grounds to slip off alone in which case the course of the book might not be so much disrupted UNTIL he reached Ithilien where he would surely encounter Boromir .... who is hightly unlikely to have reacted in the same way as his brother in the same situation. I doubt that Frodo would have been allowed to continue his journey and that Gollum's life would have been spared.

Of course if all the company had continued together, events would naturally have taken a different course. If Saurman's Urks had caughtup - would the united fellowship have been enough to see them off? That is, I think unlikely. The ring would have been taken and the free peoples caught between the Red Eye and White Hand. Even if they avoided death or capture on this occasion it would have been a larger and more conspicuous company approaching Mordor. Not only would there have been no distraction of the capture of Merry and Pippin but probably no Ent involvement, probably no Rohirrim left to ride to the Pelennor, and no Army of the dead , and with Minas Tirith downfallen no Gondor to raise a final army to draw the reamioning armies out of Mordor. Even if the fellowship somehow achieved the quest (and I feel that this is so unlikely to be hardly worth contemplating in these circumstances) - I think so much would have been destroyed that it would be a Pyrrhic victory.

While it seems possible that Frodo was "meant" to meet Faramir , I can't help thinking that fate got it wrong if it meant Faramir to be in the Fellowship - maybe fate knew that the bossy big brother would pull rank. Perhaps someone else can interpret this more clearly. Another possibility is that Fate was sending the son of the Steward to bring the heir of Isildur back to Gondor - the first line of the poem is "Seek for the Sword that was broken". What was this fate and did it intervene to delay Boromir? If he hadn't lost his horse at Tharbad he would surely have arrived way in advance of Frodo.

I am sure there are things I haven't thought of and I am beginning to confuse myself - so anyone..Help?!

[Imladris]

The word doom is mentioned in the Sil about...forty something times, not to mention the word fate.

Examples of the terms fate and Doom in the Sil:

his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar; and a high doom was before him.

This was when Elwe awoke from his trance when he saw Melian. This was before he became Thingol, before he saw Beren and asked for the Silmaril, before he refused to give the Dwarves the Silmaril, before the dwarves slew him in Doriath. Yet before he had a chance to make choices, a high doom was before him -- he had no choice in the matter.

Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your [Feanor's] road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee.

The word tense is very interesting to me. Tirion gives Manwe's message that Feanor should not go forth (after Morgoth if I recall correctly). Yet he says that his road leads to sorrow, not that his road willlead to sorrow if he chooses to go forth. *shrugs*

To me shall Feanor come soon.

My point in quoting these several pasages is this: the roads of men and elves are layed before them and they have no other choice but travel it (in a way it reminds me of the Fates' thread of life...your thread is your thread and it is spun for you).

The reason I quote these passages is because The Silmarillion is the building blocks, the Foundation (didn't he write it before or during LotR?). I believe that what is said in the Silmarillion can be used (in most ways) for LotR.

While it seems possible that Frodo was "meant" to meet Faramir , I can't help thinking that fate got it wrong if it meant Faramir to be in the Fellowship - maybe fate knew that the bossy big brother would pull rank. Perhaps someone else can interpret this more clearly. Another possibility is that Fate was sending the son of the Steward to bring the heir of Isildur back to Gondor - the first line of the poem is "Seek for the Sword that was broken". What was this fate and did it intervene to delay Boromir? If he hadn't lost his horse at Tharbad he would surely have arrived way in advance of Frodo.

I am sure there are things I haven't thought of and I am beginning to confuse myself - so anyone..Help?!

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but my thoughts are these: fate meant Faramir and Boromir both to dream the dream, and it also meant for Boromir to become part of the Fellowship.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.

[Mithalwen]

I really meant that since Faramir, received the dream first and frequently, it would suggest that he was the one who should seek for the sword, and if he had done so the consequences I suggested might have come to pass to the ruin of all..... but I may well be reading too much into this. :). Also, if Boromir had not lost his horse, he would surely have reached Rivendell long before Frodo even set out. (Gandalf (albeit on Shadowfax) managed Rohan to Rivendell via the shire in 25 days), so I wondered if the message was primarily to find Aragorn rather than the ring.