bombadils influence on our reading of the narrative

[three rings]

I am curious as to opinions on how Bombadils inclusion influences our reading of the remainder of the novel.
Do you think his inclusion has any notable resonances later in the book?

[Mumak o' Harad]

I remember the first time I read the books. After the appearance of Bombadil and his role in saving the Hobbits, I always thought he would show up out of the blue to do something heroic; however, the ring was finally destroyed and I thought: "What's up with Bombadil, the guy who's older than everything? Even the Ents had their part on the war and he did nothing at all!" :mad:

[vanwalossien]

I remember that it took a little while before I really noticed that the Ring didn't affect Tom, and when I realised it, I think perhaps it changed the book a little. The Ring was threathening the whole of Middle-Earth with its incredible power, but still it couldn't affect the mind of Tom Bombadil, what- or whoever he really is. It meant that the Ring could not manipulate everything, there was still hope. And though I don't know what Tom is (having read a few discussions about this here only served to make me more confused ;)), it is mentioned that he seems like something between a man and a hobbit in appearance, and his love for the nature around him, and many of his habits seem slightly hobbitish. If there was one person the Ring could not affect, perhaps there were others who could withstand its power, perhaps the hobbits would make it.

But the first time I read the book I didn't think about this, it takes a lot of time to notice the wonderful details of LotR, and I can't remember if I thought very much about Tom the first time I read about him except for "Oh, how odd. Why isn't he invisible?"

[Boromir88]

Tom (as well as Farmer Maggot) are important in getting the hobbits to grow up. I think the reason we see Farmer Maggot different from the rest of the hobbits back in hobbiton, is because he's talked to Tom, and seen him. Similar instance with the Hobbits. Tom helped the hobbits learn there were people living in the Shire long before Hobbits, and there will be people living there long after. Your typical hobbit doesn't care about the outside world, and is only concerned about themselves (thinking anything else is "queer.") Where Bombadil taught the Hobbits there's much more out there besides The Shire.

Bombadil and Treebeard are interesting comparisons. Both the two ancient most beings left on Middle-earth, both have sort have been forgotten. Where they are different is Treebeard does something to help out in the War, Bombadil doesn't. Therefor Treebeard is still remembered, and Bombadil is just sort of known to very few and will most likely be forgotten.

[Sharpis Corbis]

It seems to me, that since Tom wasn't effected by the ring, and was always saving the hobbits, if he was used a lot more, saving the hobbits in any situation, the story we become dull. And at the Council of Elrond, didn't they discuss having him keep it, or hold on to it for a while. Or am I mistaken?

[littlemanpoet]

You're right, Sharpis Corbis: Gandalf explains that giving the Ring to Tom Bombadil would not solve the problem, for Tom would probably forget about it and misplace it, and in the end, Sauron would find him out and destroy Tom to get the Ring.

[Essex]

I think Tom shows us that no matter HOW advanced we get, we cannot beat Mother Earth and Nature.

I've heard a few comparisons over the years that Tom could be an expression of 'Nature' itself. I really like this theory.

What Tolkien seems to be saying by Tom not being affected by the Ring is, that no doubt HOW powerful the Ring may be, it is not infinitely powerful. And no matter how much Sauron thinks he is in control of ME's destiny, he will never be in total control by ANY means, and could be wiped out by mother nature at a whim.

In real life terms for example, did anyone see the Supervolcano documentaries the other week on the BBC? These followed on from the horizon programme a few years back which explained the phenomenom of Yellowstone park being a volcano.

Now, no matter how advanced we are, we could never live with the powers of Nature to this extent. i.e. if the yellowstone SV erupted then most of the USA would be wiped out, and all of the planet would be effected considerably.

Now not even Sauron with his Ring could do anything about that!

Yes, a bit of a tenuous link there, but it explains my feelings towards Tom as Mother Nature.......

PS An example of Sauron being effected by Mother Nature. Imagine the scene if the Wind had not changed direction to bring Aragorn and CO up the River Anduin on the Corsair ships? Goodbye Minas Tirith...........

[littlemanpoet]

Tom (as well as Farmer Maggot) are important in getting the hobbits to grow up.

Yes B-88. I've been reading FotR for the last little while and was reminded of this thread. I was struck by the fact that from Shadows of the Past through to Rivendell, one of the primary themes of FotR is as a "coming of age" story about Frodo. I don't include the other hobbits at this point. Sam is pretty much already what he ever would be, except that he gets deepened by his experiences. Merry seems reasonably mature also, and is deepened by his experiences. Pippin is the most immature and self-centered of the bunch, but his "coming of age" story really begins with his capture by the orcs, and his service under Denethor. So I see this as Frodo's coming of age story, and he is under the tutelage of first Gandalf, then Farmer Maggot (briefly), then Tom Bombadil (crucially), and finally Strider from Bree to Rivendell.

So I guess what I have hit upon is that I no longer see the Tom Bombadil piece of this story as an unnecessary aside. Frodo's experience with Tom, with Goldberry, and in the barrow, are all very important for his growing up . . .very much like Bilbo's experience when Gandalf was away in The Hobbit.

[Mithalwen]

I am afraid I loathe Tom Bombadil so much that I invariably skip those characters regarding them as a detour into a completely different book if not world., feel their inclusion as Tolkien's biggest error (second only to wishing he had rewritten the early chapters to eliminate the Hobbit style), and think that Bomabadils songs would make a Vogon queasy. So having rendered him a non-person he has zero influence....

[Lalwendë]

To me the chapters with Tom Bombadil, from the Old Forest to the Barrow Downs, are very important to the story. Here we have the Hobbits making the transition from the 'safe' and almost-but-not-quite familiar world of The Shire to the world of Men. Even the Elves they meet in The Shire have an ethereal, elegiac quality; they are gentle and are leaving the concerns of Middle Earth behind, whereas the other Elves we will go on to meet are much more solid, even slightly dangerous.

The Hobbits, unlike the band of Elves, are in effect joining Middle Earth. The episodes in these chapters serve to form a bridge between The Shire and the safety there and the world of Men which is full of tangible danger. In the story we are about to jump from one type of danger to another. All the Hobbits must do in The Shire is keep hidden from the Ringwraiths and keep moving. Once they leave The Shire they will meet a myriad of dangers which must be faced up to.

These chapters, to me, also serve to provide an opportunity for Tolkien to deepen and develop the tale. In a story of a journey it would be all too easy to simply allow the narrative impulse to sweep the characters and readers on ahead, but reflective points, such as the interlude at Tom's house are necessary to allow development of some of the concepts.

And another reason strikes me as to why these chapters are important. They are foreshadowings of other chapters/events to come. The Old Forest is a remnant of Fangorn and the anger of Old Man Willow is later seen multiplied in the Huorns. The mysterious atmosphere of Tom and Goldberry's house mirrors that of Galadriel's realm (and it might be interesting to compare these two women), and memories of the Barrow Wight's actions serve to underline how perilous the Paths of the Dead are.

My final reason as to why I think the chapters are important is purely personal, and that's that I like the mystical, magical atmosphere they impart. These chapters are full of pagan or old religion atmosphere, echoes of folklore; they conjour up an image of an ancient England and I love the archaeological detail. I realise Tom's poems aren't to everyone's taste, as they are a bit mad, but I find them quite funny. :)

[Mithalwen]

Interesting, but not convinced... I love the Lord of the Rings dearly but I find the Bomabadil episode a ludicrous embarassment .... like the family member you avoid all year and dread having to spend so much time with at Christmas .... but then I don't go much for magic and old religion either (apart form a fondness for the Cerne Giant ... :D) .....

[Essex]

I also love the old forest / bombadil chapters, and have already given my point on this thread a few months back. But I can't let Boromir's point lieWhere they are different is Treebeard does something to help out in the War, Bombadil doesn't.Bombadil indirectly saves Middle-earth. I've said this about a million times already so sorry if you've already read this dirge.....

Hobbits get caught by Wight

Bombail saves the hobbits (saves middle-earth for the first time - the wights had been woken up by the Witch King's presence. what would happen when the wight got the Ring? I'll leave the math to you....)

Bombadil gives Merry his Sword from the barrow

Merry helps slay the Witch King with the sword (bombadil has indirectly possible saved Minas Tirith as an aside)

No death of Witch King - no argument between the two Orc trackers who would have then undoubtedly found Frodo and Sam. Capture of Frodo, capture of Ring, end of Middle-earth as we know it.

Well done Bombadil - You helped save Middle-earth..... :)

[Kath]

My word Essex I had never thought of Bombadil as being such an important character before!

Personally I like him and his songs, but I always saw him as an amusing diversion, though one that introduced the dangerous element of the world beyond the Shire so it wouldn't be such a shock when we met up with the Black Riders at Bree.

[Lalwendë]

but then I don't go much for magic and old religion either (apart form a fondness for the Cerne Giant ...

Perhaps the purpose of the Cerne Giant was to make you think in exactly that way... :D

Essex makes a good point about Merry's sword coming from the Barrow. I wonder if Tolkien had this in mind all along, or if it was a happy coincidence arising from the story?

[cookieman]

I believe Tom is connected somehow to Aule. Aule was the lord over all substances of which Arda is made. He was a smith. Aule created the dwarves, and Tom bears some resemblance to a dwarf. Perhaps Tom is one of the Maiar, similar to Gandalf, but with different powers and dwells in ME for a different purpose. He may have taken a form similar to dwarves out of respect for Aule. Gandalf is a "steward". Maybe Tom is also a steward in a sense. Whereas Gandalf is more concerned with men and elves, maybe Tom is more interested in trees and the earth itself. (I don't know why he would have boundaries though.) Sauron would not be able to defeat Aule, but he would be able to strive with and possibly defeat another Maiar. Goldberry, also is called the river daughter, she may aslo be another of the Maiar. I can see many possible explanations for this line of thought.

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to the Downs, cookieman. I hope you enjoy being Dead. The connection of Tom Bombadil to Aulë is a new idea to me, which is quite refreshing since just about every other idea has already been forwarded here at the Downs. The long and the short of it though is that Tolkien apparently wanted Bombadil to be an enigma and refused to explain what he is. As Goldberry said, "He is."

[Kuruharan]

The connection of Tom Bombadil to Aulë is a new idea to me

Here (http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html) is the most famous argument for Bombadil being Aule.

[littlemanpoet]

Wow, Kuruharan! I actually owned that magazine issue at one time! (Mythlore #47) - but I forgot about the Aulë connection. Thanks for a trip down memory lane.

[Saurreg]

Tom Bombadil was very distructing. But then again to me, the first part of FoTR was pretty draggy. Only after they started the quest did things start to liven up. IMO of course!

I always wondered why was Tom Bombadil and Goldberry included in the story. Perhaps Tolkien felt that it was too early to introduce Strider or other characters and hence invented a totally new being to fit the loop?

[Kath]

(I don't know why he would have boundaries though.)

It could be that his power faded over the years, or that he chose to become reclusive as he did not want to be an influence on ME anymore. The Valar had pretty much disappeared outside of myth and though there were the Maiar like Gandalf the people of ME knew them simply as wizards. Maybe he thought he would not be counted for much anymore.

[littlemanpoet]

There is no proof that Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were Maiar. It's as reasonable to conjecture it as anything else, but it's far from certain.

As for Tolkien's reason for including Tom, he liked the guy and wanted him in. When Strider first appeared in the inn at Bree, it was as much a surprise to Tolkien as it was to the Hobbits, according to one of his many letters.

[Mithalwen]

Perhaps the purpose of the Cerne Giant was to make you think in exactly that way... :D


? I have no idea what you mean... seriously ....... I just remember as a young child asking my parents one of those questions and not getting an answer... :D

As for Mr Bombadil ... if he were Aule ... surely he could have done something about the ring?

[Lalwendë]

? I have no idea what you mean... seriously ....... I just remember as a young child asking my parents one of those questions and not getting an answer...

Well, maybe the 'appearance' of the Giant is meant to impress people, and so make them fall into following whatever ways those who painted him were following? That is, as long as he was not a later medieval crude 'joke'...

[Mithalwen]

I suspect the joke ..... well he always makes me laugh....as does
the idea of people ... err trying his power - and he is sometimes put to good use for World Aids Day.. They are strange in Dorset you know..... and have a strange sense of humour .. :rolleyes:

[cookieman]

I'm not saying that Bombadil was Aule, but he may have been to Aule as Osse was to Ulmo. (Just a possibility.)

[Kuruharan]

Hmm...I thought the prevailing theory was that Sauron filled that role.

[Larien Telemnar]

I always thought Tom should have gone with the Hobbits, he would've sure made the journey a whole lot lighthearted for my furry-footed kinsmen!

[Bêthberry]

It is almost inevitable that any discussion of Bombadil turns into a 'who is he?' topic, but I think it is valuable to recall lmp's point here that the hobbits require and acquire important maturing experiences as they move from their beloved Shire to the outside world--or at least Frodo.

The movie Bree section was much darker than the book Bree section--Prancing Pony--specifically because the hobbits had not yet seriously realised any possibility that this quest ring thing would be dangerous. I supposedthat is a more glamerous and exciting entrance for Strider/Aragorn, but at the same time it represented a far more abrupt jump between the safe and happy, warm and cozy opening and the journey itself. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but we do lose an aspect of understanding the Shire.

It is interesting that Jackson in fact removed both Bombadil and the Scouring. Tolkien's interest in the changes to Middle earth clearly were to Jackson less interesting than the action aspect of the adventure.