View Full Version : Ring wraiths vs. Balrogs
Heen-1
06-11-2002, 01:14 PM
Who would win?
We know that balrogs are maia (they're real name is valaraukar, i think) but ringwriaths are great kings of the numenoreans possesed by the 9 rings (which makes them super powerful) under the dominion of sauron and the one ring...who would win?
right now, i'd say a balrog would beat a ringwraith.
obloquy
06-11-2002, 01:56 PM
this is a mad stupid question
^^^ this is a way to lose posting privileges ^^
- The Barrow-Wight -
[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]
the real findorfin
06-11-2002, 02:53 PM
thats rude!
The Balrogs would woop *** ...butt..tooshie.
Now Sauron vs Balrog, that would be more even! We know this because sauron couldn't control the Balrog in Moria.
MallornLeaf
06-11-2002, 02:59 PM
First of all, I don't think they'd ever fight, cuz they are somewhat on the same team. *think back to Melkor and all his servants. some were Balrogs, one was Sauron.* Ringwraiths were servants of a servant of Melkor (Sauron), and Balrogs were actual servants of him. So, yes, I'd say that Sauron and balrogs would be more equal fighting. Especially, as ringwraiths are just men with cool rings, whereas balrogs are Maia
the real findorfin
06-11-2002, 03:09 PM
thanks 4 the agreement.
i did a post like this a while ago
the competitors
Melkor, Sauron, Balrog, Ring wraith tag team, dragon, orc in a real bad mood.
who would get knocked out first, second, third, etc
Any suggestions
Thingol
06-11-2002, 03:25 PM
Gandalf said that not even Aragorn and Glorfindel together could stand against the nine Ringwraiths assembled under their fell chieftain. Glorfindel killed a Balrog, you do the math. And this is in the wilderness, far away from Mordor, without Sauron having possession of the One Ring. Gandalf said that if Sauron had regained the Ring, the Ringwraiths would have become much more powerful (scary to think what they were like back in the Second Age). In a fight between a Balrog and the nine Ringwraiths, my money's on the Ringwraiths.
[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
Kuruharan
06-11-2002, 03:38 PM
Thingol, why is it we are drawn to threads about Balrogs like moths to a flame?
Does this mean that you think that a Ringwraith could beat a Dragon? smilies/wink.gif
Tarthang
06-11-2002, 06:30 PM
I think the Balrog would beat a Nazgul (with the possible exception of the Witch-king of Angmar) in a one on one battle.
BTW Mallornleaf, yes Balrogs were Maia, so was Sauron, when you stop to think about, and as a lietenant of Morgoth, a very powerful Maia.
Thingol
06-11-2002, 07:46 PM
The main weapon of the Nazgul was terror, I'm not really sure to what extent the Dragons were capable of fear. On the flip side I am not really sure if fire could kill the Nazgul since water wouldn't do the trick. The Nazgul are pretty myterious, but I think they would have a pretty good shot of cowing the Dragon, both with terror and on a spiritual/magical level. I'd also have to say that the Nazgul would have a better than average chance of getting under the dragon and stabbing it. (there are nine of them after all) smilies/smile.gif
[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
TarElendil
06-11-2002, 08:25 PM
i dont think a Balrog could defeat any of the Nazgul. Remember that many balrogs were slain in the defense of gondolin. Gothmog himself single handedly by Ecthelion. The nazgul wouldnt have been hurt by the maces,whips, or any other weapons of the Balrogs. The nazgul are exactly what theyre called- wraiths. I dont see how a balrog could defeat any nazgul.
Jessica Jade
06-11-2002, 08:42 PM
I, too, wonder if large amounts of fire could kill, or at least temporarily disable, a Nazgūl. Didn't it say somewhere in Fellowship that they are afraid of fire? (like when they were at Amon Sūl and Aragorn made a fire, saying that it would protect them from the Wraiths).
The Nazgul are pretty myterious, but I think they would have a pretty good shot of cowing the Dragon, both with terror and on a spiritual/magical level.
I agree! I've always thought the Nazgūl are fascinating. Their most deadly weapon is, undoubtedly, fear. And fear is very powerful. As it is said in F. Herbert's Dune, "Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration." The Nazgūl were able to make people frightened beyond belief by calling out to eachother with their chilling, deadly voices. With a weapon, such as this, they did not need to fight with swords, cannons, etc, because when people are afraid they don't want to fight-- if their fear conquers them, then their ability to rationalize is eradicated, they want nothing but to cower down and hide, like they people of Minas Tirith did in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
However, since Balrogs are Maiar, I seriously doubt that the Nazgūl had the capacity or capability of terrifying the them beyond their wits. Balrogs are just inherently much more powerful. Even though they Nazgūl were posessed by Sauron, a very powerful Maia, they were only servants to him, as Sauron was to Morgoth...which means that their power was only a fraction of their master's. Also, remember what Gandalf said about the Ring at the beginning of Fellowship, (can't remember the exact quote right now)- about how the ring cannot truly create-it gives power, but only according to the posessers' native strength and force of will. So don't forget that the Nazgūl are merely ruined men, posessed, but still just men. Even with their chief weapon being sheer, bone-chilling terror, They cannot possibly overcome a Maia.
As for Sauron vs. a Balrog--that would be interesting! I think that Sauron might win out...he was the most powerful of all Morgoth's servants, right? (Although I'm sure Sauron could take the form of a Balrog if he so desired to). For the Balrog in Moria...he probably did not know that it was there. Remember when Gandalf was telling the story of his fall in Moria, and how he ran through those dark passages...he mentioned that the experience was beyond words, and that there were many evil creatures dwelling at the roots of the earth..."even Sauron knows them not, for they were there before he." (something to the effect of that). Even if he knew the Balrog existed, he had no reason to rouse it, because it could serve as a guard of moria, just as Shelob guarded the pass of Cirith Ungol.
[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]
Heen-1
06-11-2002, 08:51 PM
well, yea sauron COULD have taken the form of a balrog, but after he fell into the great chasm when numenore was destroyed he couldnt anymore.
and sauron wasnt powerful enough to be able to make the balrog serve him, not without the one ring.
and if he did, it would be like enslaving his own race sine both he and the balrog are maiar.
TarElendil
06-11-2002, 08:51 PM
yes, the nazgul inspired much terror. but you say it as if it was their one and only weapon. In my opinion the nazgul feared fire,as did other servants of morgoth and sauron, because of the Maia Arien who guided the sun. She herself was a spirit of fire, but one who wasnt corrupted to the service of Morgoth. I would think the nazgul would fear the fire of the balrogs less. The nazgul could weild weapons. The balrogs' weapons couldnt harm them, save fire.
Kuruharan
06-11-2002, 09:03 PM
For some reason I get the feeling that someone (Thingol) is trying to get my goat.
The nazgul wouldnt have been hurt by the maces,whips, or any other weapons of the Balrogs.
The Balrogs might not be able to destroy their spirits, but I think they could destroy their forms.
However, since Balrogs are Maiar, I seriously doubt that the Nazgūl had the capacity or capability of terrifying the them beyond their wits. Balrogs are just inherently much more powerful.
So don't forget that the Nazgūl are merely ruined men, posessed, but still just men.
Bingo! There is no way the enslaved shade of a human mortal would be able to defeat a powerful spirit that had been in existance since before the beginning of time.
Even with their chief weapon being sheer, bone-chilling terror, They cannot possibly overcome a Maia.
Example: Gandalf (also Maia) stood off all Nine at once, alone, at night, when their power was greatest.
And a Balrog killed him. So, match goes to the Balrogs.
TarElendil
06-11-2002, 09:10 PM
their power was NOT at their greatest. Sauron did NOT have the Ring. Look for the quote from LoTR where it says they would be far more great and terrible if sauron had the ring.
Kuruharan
06-12-2002, 08:28 AM
Umm, yes, but I find that argument unimpressive.
It is true that Sauron in the Second Age, at the height of his power, was greater than Morgoth when he was at the lowest point in his power. However, Morgoth corrupted (and I would say tampered with, but that is debateable) the Balrogs when he was at his peak. They were immensely powerful with their own native strength (and with the power of Morgoth that he put into them, Thingol smilies/wink.gif) Morgoth's minions seemed to have a more independent relationship with him, i.e. they were able to survive his fall. The Ringwraiths were chained to Sauron, and they stood and fell by him. This was what prevented their spirits from going to Mandos, but their spirits would be indestructable for the Balrogs in any case. But the forms that the Nazgul wore could be destroyed, and I think a spirit that was only slighly less powerful than Sauron in origin would be able to overcome their terror and destroy the Ringwraith's bodies, no matter how great and powerful Sauron had become.
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 10:59 AM
The Nazgul did not have a form. They were invisible. And they werent "mere men." They were Kings with the blood of Numenor. yes, Balrogs were Maia, but i still dont see why you think a Nazgul could not kill a Balrog. If Ecthelion did, i dont see how there isnt the possibility that the witch-king couldnt.
Reginald Hill
06-12-2002, 01:08 PM
I know that this is a hard topic but... did Balrogs have wings? I read a few other discussions on this and I still haven't gotten a clear answer. I always thought that a Balrog were spirit things and were made of smoke stuff. I'm pretty sure that any wings that they had couldn't hold them up, but I could be wrong.
Reginald Hill
06-12-2002, 01:11 PM
would the fighting nazgul be on there flying steeds? cuz if they were and balrogs can't fly that would be a big advantage for the nazgul.
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 01:25 PM
Balrogs having wings has been much debated. It is for sure that they cant fly though, for they rode to Gondolin on the backs of dragon like creatures. I believe that they had wings, but it was made up of more shadow and fire than flesh. Read the description of the Balrog in LoTR. The balrog was wreathed in shadow and flame.
Elrian
06-12-2002, 01:51 PM
Balrogs having wings has been much debated. It is for sure that they cant fly though, for they rode to Gondolin on the backs of dragon like creatures.
No, that is not for sure and is still being debated. When Morgoth and Ungoliant returned from Valinor and Ungoliant started to attack Morgoth for the Silmarils, The Balrogs "Arose (from Angband) and passed over Hithlum.
The Nazgul did not have a form. They were invisible. And they werent "mere men." They were Kings with the blood of Numenor
3 were Black Numenoreans, some were Easterings. The had been kings an sorcerers.
The balrog was wreathed in shadow and flame. Being in a not so well lit cave could have attributed to that.
[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 02:00 PM
left out the easterlinges, sorry:P
There is no hard evidence in any text of Tolkien that says Balrogs could fly. I would think that if they could fly, that the Balrog Glorfindel battled would fly back up after he fell off the cliff. Or even the Balrog in Moria.
the real findorfin
06-12-2002, 02:25 PM
Sauron was able to change form in the 1st age but were balrogs. If not why not?
and once again I ask how come Ecthelion can kill Gothmog but Gandalf (even a diminshed gandalf)loses to a balrog. The only reason he stops him is because he falls off a bridge.
This means Ecthelion would beat Gandalf....no way!!
Wot about Ecthelion vs the Witch King?
TheBlackRider
06-12-2002, 02:35 PM
Put yourself in a balrog's shoes. They probly can fly. But try beign a very heavy object and flyign for a sport. Teh probly only flew sometimes. As for when the Moria oen fell off a cliff ti was almost dead already. It was 2 tired to heave itself back up. Nwo for a test.....Run 500 hundred miles then jump off a cliff.....and try to climb it again.
It just dosnt work!!!!!
The balrog can fly and it does hav ewings!!!!
Reginald Hill
06-12-2002, 03:22 PM
Thanks for answering my question TarElendil! smilies/smile.gif I am just re-reading LoTR and I've forgotten a lot about it! smilies/biggrin.gif
Elrian
06-12-2002, 03:43 PM
left out the easterlinges, sorry:P
There is no hard evidence in any text of Tolkien that says Balrogs could fly. I would think that if they could fly, that the Balrog Glorfindel battled would fly back up after he fell off the cliff. Or even the Balrog in Moria
The Balrog in Moria had no room to gain the momentum to fly if his wings as Tolkien said streched from wall to wall in the cavern, in the chasm it fell into there would be less room. When Glorfindel battled the Balrog, didn't Glorfindel fall with the Balrog? Preventing it possibly from taking flight, and or wounding it thereby making flight impossible, or was there enough room for it to fly to begin with?
Balrogs were Maia like Sauron, and sauron neither sailed (it would have burned), nor swam (He would not still be so hot during the Last Alliance to burn Gil-galad and melt his spear) off Numenor after it's destruction, he flew. He could also fly during the First Age as a vampire bat. Sauron and the Balrogs didn't have a restriction of old men forms like the Istari did. If Sauron as a Maia could fly att will, so could a Balrog. Sauron didn't always fly either, but he could smilies/tongue.gif
[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 04:49 PM
Sauron did not fly from Numenor. He had not developed a new body yet. His SPIRIT fled to Middle-earth. In one of tolkien's letters it says that saurons body was destroyed in the downfall of numenor and his spirit fled,with the ring, to Middle-earth.
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 04:51 PM
If Sauron as a Maia could fly att will, so could a Balrog.
some Maia are far more poweful than others. Its a possibility that the balrogs couldnt change form.
Thingol
06-12-2002, 05:05 PM
It quite explicitly says that both Glorfindel and Aragorn could not have overcome all of the Nine grouped together. Now Glorfindel killed a Balrog. To me this indicates pretty clearly that all nine of the Nazgul could kill a Balrog. As for Ecthellion vs. The Balrog; Tolkien stated that Glorfindel's slaying of a Balrog was one of the greatest acts of the eldar and that Elves of the calliber of Ecthellion and Glorfindel were exceptionallt rare. Also, at least one Balrog did flee from the War of Wrath, not exactly a brave thing to do. It is entirely possible for a Balrog to be slain by beings of great spiritual/magical power such as Glorfindel, Ecthellion, or the Nazgul. Even if terror would not work on the Balrog that would not mean that it could not be defeated. The power of the 9 rings greatly enhanced the powers of the men who wore them. With the 9 rings I doubt that their power was any less than that of an incarnated Maia, such as a Balrog. And as I've said Gandalf stated that Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not stand against all of the nine. In adition it says in the Unfinished Tales that the rangers guarding the area around the Shire were driven off or slain with the comming of the Witch King of Angmar, and even if their captain, Aragorn, had been there they probably wouldn't have been up to the task of stopping him. Pretty convicing evidence to me.
[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
Elrian
06-12-2002, 05:08 PM
Sauron did not fly from Numenor. He had not developed a new body yet. His SPIRIT fled to Middle-earth. And how could it have done that if it didn't fly???? all Maia are spirit creatures.
If Balrogs couldn't fly then why did the pass over Hithlum and not through it??? They flew.
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 05:14 PM
theres a difference. saurons SPIRIT went over the sea to middle-earth. after his body was destroyed in numenor he could take one form only. That of a tall and dark lord. As said earlier the heatt of sauron killed gil-galad.
and the balrogs were in a physical form. theres a difference, if you do not know, in having a physical form and being a mere spirit.
[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: TarElendil ]
Elrian
06-12-2002, 05:19 PM
saurons SPIRIT went over the sea to middle-earth. after his body was destroyed in numenor he could take one form only
Maia are SPIRIT creatures. He could not take fair form again, not just one form.
Case closed.
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 05:25 PM
No, he could ONLY take that form from thereon. All men and elves are also "spirit creatures" as you call them. No the "case" isnt closed.
what exactly are you trying to get at? maia are spirit creatures and sauron couldnt take fair form again? in what way is that suppose to relate to the topic?i say again "No, he could ONLY take that form from thereon."
Thingol
06-12-2002, 05:25 PM
I don't want to get into a Balrog wing debate, but I seem to remember a post a while back citing dozens of instances of the phrase "passed over" being used on creatures that clearly could not fly. The fea of any creature is indestructible, and not bound by the physical world. So yes, the Balrogs in their original state were capable of "flight." All Maia are spirit creatures, but not all Maia incarnated themselves into a single body. Once a Maia incanates itself, like the Balrogs did, it loses much of its former powers. Unless the Balrogs, in their incarnated form, had wings that were more than just shadows, they would not have been able to fly. Tolkien explicity stated that the Balrogs had incarnated themselves into a single body and were incapble of changing it. Sauron on the other hand still retained the ability to shift forms. Elrian is correct, just because Sauron could not take on another fair form, does not necassarily mean that he could not take on multiple evil ones. It never explicitly states that he became trapped in the dark lord persona, after all he did regenerate a new form in the Third Age. Whether or not the wings actually were more than just shadows is a debate that will probably never end.
[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
TarElendil
06-12-2002, 05:30 PM
yes, i agree with thingol. "Passed over" can be the same thing as "walked over" or "rode over" in many instances.
TarElendil
06-13-2002, 03:35 PM
according to The History of Middle-earth: Volume 4it says that both Balrogs and Orcs came to the aid of Morgoth.
To his aid came the Orcs and Balrogs that lived yet in the lowest places of Angband.
Jessica Jade
06-21-2002, 11:29 AM
I think that all 9 Ringwraiths together might be able to kill a Balrog, but if it were one-on-one, between the Witch King and Gothmog for example, the Balrog would definitely win.
Calencoire
06-25-2002, 04:54 PM
I'd have to say that the Balrogs would win because they were fighting with Morgoth even before men came, and some of the balrogs were just as powerful as Sauron, and the Ringwaiths weren't as powerful as Sauron, so therefore the Balrogs would win smilies/biggrin.gif
Both Sauron and the Balrogs were servants of the real dark lord Morgoth. I think that if Sauron was the Lt. of Morgoth the in fact he would be command of the Balrogs.
Whether or not this hierarchy would still exist after Morgoths exile is debatable, but it seems that there must have been a mutual understanding between Sauron and the Balrog as the Balrog did not not attack Saurons orcs. They were both corrupted Mair, so evil and of the same order.
Sauron undoubtably knew that a Balrog was in Moria because Orc scouts or messengers would have described a great power in the mines.
This Balrog was not the great captain of Balrogs which was Gothmog, but it would still be more powerfull than all the Ringwraiths which as has been said before were just corrupted men who had increased power due to the power of the ring but as has been said in a previouse post the ring only gives power proportionet to the wielders power.
Sauron being the greates of Aules people would easily beat down a Balrog
obloquy
06-25-2002, 05:55 PM
some of the balrogs were just as powerful as Sauron
False.
but it seems that there must have been a mutual understanding between Sauron and the Balrog as the Balrog did not not attack Saurons orcs
When did the Balrog have occasion to attack Sauron's orcs?
I accept that a few Balrogs esp Gothmog could have been an equal to Saurons power. But in this case i would think that the Balrog in Moria would not have been as powerful.
It is an undisputable fact that the Balrogs were immensly powerful as they could beat down ungoliant that even their master Melkor was having trouble with.
The orcs had been in Moria for many hundreds of years and there is no statement by tolkien saying that the Orcs and Balrog had come into conflict in this entire time. Leading me to assume that this was because that the Balrog was aware of Sauron and was letting his troops be.
Although as Obloquy has said in the post above this, maybe the Balrog had no chance to fight the Orcs as they kept out of the Balrogs way completely out of fear.
Either is equally plausible in my opinion
obloquy
06-25-2002, 06:46 PM
No, none of the Balrogs were as powerful as Sauron. Not even Gothmog. Sorry.
Sauron may have known about the Balrog, but there's no indication either way. The orcs of Moria are not Sauron's troops.
TarElendil
06-25-2002, 08:07 PM
It seems many of you are not basing your opinions on facts of Tolkien's works. I agree with Gimli. The balrogs werent as powerful as sauron.
Thingol
06-25-2002, 08:33 PM
In the tale of years in the back of The Return of the King it says that in 2480, Sauron peoples Moria with his troops. Sauron mut have at least known about the existance of the Balrog. The Balrog and Sauron must have at least had an understanding. Obloquy is correct, not even Gothmog was stronger than Sauron. And just because the Balrogs were maiar does not mean that one Balrog could defeat all nine Nazgul. After a maia incarnates itself, it loses a great deal of its original power. The nine wringwraiths were originally men of great power, and their rings enhanced there abilities greatly. From textual evidence it can be deduced that the 9 Nazgul would have been able to defeat a Balrog. Glorfindel slew a Balrog. Glorfindel and Aragorn together cannot stand against all nine Nazgul together. One on one a Balrog is going o defeat a Nazgul. But all nine Nazgul against one Balrog, the Nazgul are going to win.
[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
Daniel Telcontar
06-26-2002, 05:52 AM
You can't be sure. Although Glorfindel killed a balrog, he died himself. And at the battle in Arnor, the witch-king flees when Glorfindel arrives, fearing a confrontation. And it is Glorfindel who drives the nazgūl into the river Bruinen, just be threatening them. Remember, the greatest weapon of the nazgūl was the fear their enemies had for them, and a balrog has no reason to fear a ring-wraith, who has no weapons to harm a balrog. I think the balrog would kill the ring-wraiths easily.
Rosa_Baggins
06-26-2002, 06:53 AM
Balrogs arent as powerful as Sauron.Think of it as an army.There are ranks, no?Its probably the same on th evil side if you will.
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 07:55 AM
And it is Glorfindel who drives the nazgūl into the river Bruinen, just be threatening them. Remember, the greatest weapon of the nazgūl was the fear their enemies had for them, and a balrog has no reason to fear a ring-wraith, who has no weapons to harm a balrog. I think the balrog would kill the ring-wraiths easily
The nazgul were driven into the water by their horses. The horses were in a crazed state and went into the water. I for one think that a Balrog would fear the Nazgul a bit. Morgoth alone of the Vala knew fear because he was full of malice and hatred. Do you forgot that a Nazgul can wield weapons????? You said they have no weapons THAT CAN HURT A BALROG? Then what kind of crap did they use in the defense of gondolin to kill them?? Axes, sword,etc. Like the Nazgul used. I for one think that a Nazgul could take a balrog in single combat.
Daniel Telcontar
06-26-2002, 08:49 AM
The Elves had weapons forged by master smiths, and many of them were blessed with the light of the Two Trees. It is not the common elf who kills balrogs, but the really cool elves like Glorfindel. The nazgūl did not have that kind of weapons to kill balrogs. E.g. the morgul knife poisons you, but I don't think a balrog can be poisoned like Frodo was. The swords that the nazgūl wields are hardly powerful enough to harm a balrog.
And I think the nazgūl has so much power over their horses, to prevent the horses from just running of. Glorfindel had a torch, and it was his combined might as an Elf-lord together with the fire that made the nazgūl, not their horses, ride into the river.
My opinion is still that the balrog could kill the ring-wraiths without trouble.
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 09:02 AM
The nazgūl did not have that kind of weapons to kill balrogs. E.g. the morgul knife poisons you, but I don't think a balrog can be poisoned like Frodo was. The swords that the nazgūl wields are hardly powerful enough to harm a balrog.
sorry, wrong.
"The black horses were filled with madness, and leaping forward in terror they bore their riders intot he rushing flood." STRAIGHT from the text. "Flight to the Ford" read it
Daniel Telcontar
06-26-2002, 09:11 AM
In Gandalf's conversion with Frodo in the next chapter, he says that "the Riders were dismayed", when seeing an Elf-lord in his rage, so that must mean that an Elf-lord like Glorfindel can scare them. So, although it was the horses who bore them into the water, they were already so terrified, I think they would have rode into the river anyway, also because the Ring-bearer was on the other side.
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 09:16 AM
In Gandalf's conversion with Frodo in the next chapter, he says that "the Riders were dismayed", when seeing an Elf-lord in his rage, so that must mean that an Elf-lord like Glorfindel can scare them. So, although it was the horses who bore them into the water, they were already so terrified, I think they would have rode into the river anyway, also because the Ring-bearer was on the other side.
you cannot correctly make an assumption like that. I doubt they would have rode into the water themselves. It says not even glorfindel and Aragorn could withstand all the Nine at once. Just because they were "dismayed" doesnt mean they woulda jumped in the water OR gotten their asses whooped.
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 09:17 AM
and them being "dismayed" doesnt mean they were scared sh**less of Glorfindel.
Daniel Telcontar
06-26-2002, 09:23 AM
It is an assumption, I give you that, but when they had to choose between an Elf-lord with a torch and water, I think they would have chosen the river.
And it says specifically, that not even Glorfindel and Aragorn on foot could have withstand the Nine. I think it means that they had to let the wraiths pass, because they could not move as quickly as they, nor fight all of them at one time when on foot. Gandalf says that the only hope was for Glorfindel's horse to save Frodo, which means that they could only save Frodo with speed. I am not convinced that the Ring-wraiths, even all nine of them, are cooler than a balrog.
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 09:33 AM
they may be kooler, but the nazgul would still own them smilies/tongue.gif
Daniel Telcontar
06-26-2002, 09:40 AM
Well, unfortunately, we will never know. smilies/frown.gif smilies/biggrin.gif But I enjoyed our discussion, it made me think!!
Thingol
06-26-2002, 09:41 AM
the witch-king flees when Glorfindel arrives, fearing a confrontation. Yes, as has been said, one on one the Nazgul aren't going to be able to defeat a Balrog, it would take all nine of them together. Although Glorfindel killed a balrog, he died himself. The point is Glorfindel got the job done against the Balrog, it died. Both Glorfindel and Aragorn together wouldn't have been able to stop all nine Nazgul. It is Glorfindel who drives the nazgūl into the river Bruinen, just be threatening them. It is Glorfindel, Aragorn, and the hobbits together that drive the horses into the river. There is no textual evidence to support that the Nazgul had any more control over their horses then any other rider. And even if they did, why would they flee into the water, which they were also afraid of? According to text, the horses went mad with terror and bore their riders into the flood. a balrog has no reason to fear a ring-wraith, who has no weapons to harm a balrog. First off, the Balrogs are capable of fear. They fled the War of Wrath. Secondly, the Balrogs had physical bodies that could be slain. If a Balrog was confronted by an opponent of near equal spiritual/magical strength it could be slain by a weapon. Ecthillion's helmet spike killed Gothmog. If a Balrog gets ran through by a long pointy object, it's going to die. Lastly, the Nazgul had a dark aura of terror that went before them. The Balrogs had a similar aura. The dark aura caused fear, but it was more than just terror, it was the physical reflection of their power on the corporeal world. Every being of great power has such an aura. Most of the time the aura of the good guys is a shrouded white light. Gandalf's aura, Glrofindel's aura, and Galadriel's aura are all described in this fashion. Even Aragorn is described as having an inner power that can flash in his eyes. (most men do not have that type of power) The aura of the bad guys is usually a dark cloud of shadow from which fear emanates. What I'm getting at is the aura of all nine Nazgul combined would have been greater than that of a single Balrog. And all of this is without Sauron having possesion of the One Ring.
[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
Thingol
06-26-2002, 09:53 AM
This is in response to TarElendil's points on many Balrogs being slain at the fall of Gondolin. In the Book of Lost Tales, volume two, the tale of the Fall of Gondolin is told. Unfortunately that version of events is old and outdated. The balrogs that were conceived of in Tolkien's youth were very different from the one that later evolved to fight Gandalf. The balrogs were much weaker, they rode mechanical dragons, and there were thousand of them. By the end of Tolkien's life the balrogs had been rewritten to be much more powerful, the mechanical dragons were eliminated, and their numbers could have been reduced to as few as three to have ever existed. The slaying of many balrogs at the fall of Gondolin cannot really be accepted as evidence of their power.
[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 10:27 AM
**Tarelendil claps**
Tolkien cahnged many many things later in his life. he changed the whole shape of middle-earth and other things. Im going by his complete and semi-complete works. the others are usually only parts and sketches.
Knight_Link
06-26-2002, 10:37 AM
i would have ot agree with you...the ringwraiths might be powerful, but they were just mortals, so that gives them limited power....plus, balrogs are cooler!!
Knight_Link
06-26-2002, 10:38 AM
i would have ot agree with you...the ringwraiths might be powerful, but they were just mortals, so that gives them limited power....plus, balrogs are cooler!!
Thingol
06-26-2002, 10:47 AM
*sigh* When posting in a forum for advanced discussions of Middle Earth it is helpful read at least the majority of the previous posts in a topic, and back up what you write with at least a little textual support. You don't have to directly quote, you can paraphrase or cite examples. Even if the evidence has already been stated, at least try and restate it in a somewhat different manner. Lastly, the Nazgul were not mortal, they were immortal for as long as the One Ring was intact.
[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 10:55 AM
the ringwraiths might be powerful, but they were just mortals, so that gives them limited power
just cause someone is mortal doesnt mean they cant defeat a balrog. Remember also that the balrogs were some of the lesser Maiar, though there power was still great.
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 11:28 AM
When posting in a forum for advanced discussions of Middle Earth it is helpful read at least the majority of the previous posts in a topic was that directed at me?
Daniel Telcontar
06-26-2002, 11:33 AM
I don't think so, you are good at discussing, I think the note was meant to knight_link. But someone stated above, that the wraiths were immortal. But where they? Wouldn't the term be undead, or is it a bit extreme caring about such details?
TarElendil
06-26-2002, 11:41 AM
well, as thingol said earlier, the nazgul stood and fell by sauron. they were no more when all that sauron had made with the ring and he himself was destroyed. (his physcial form)
they were mortal men but the evil power of the rings devoured their minds and they became invisible and chained to sauron's will. you could say undead
Thingol
06-26-2002, 08:59 PM
No, the comment was not direted at you TarElendil, sorry for the confusion.
obloquy
06-26-2002, 09:55 PM
The actual entry:
c. 2480 Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.
Notice that the orcs moving into the Misty Mountains, and Sauron peopling Moria with his creatures are separate events. The Misty Mountain orcs are a different breed than those troops of Sauron that we read about in LotR. What "creatures" could mean besides orcs, I don't know, but I think the use of that word is significant. Even if Sauron was behind the populating of Moria with orcs, I don't think it's reasonable to consider them Sauron's 'troops' at the time covered in LotR.
Sauron mut have at least known about the existance of the Balrog. The Balrog and Sauron must have at least had an understanding.
I don't see how this is necessary. Why do you say so? The Balrog appeared in Moria 500 years before Sauron is said to have 'peopled Moria with his creatures', so we know the Balrog wasn't one of the creatures. What reason do we have to believe that Sauron knew of the Balrog, or set up some arrangement with it?
Thingol
06-26-2002, 10:00 PM
At the time that Sauron peoples Moria with his creatures the Balrog was inhabiting Moria. Don't you think that Sauron's creatures would have informed Sauron of the Balrog's existance?
[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
Thingol
06-26-2002, 10:10 PM
There are several instances in the Lord of the Rings were orcs and especially trolls are referred to as creatures. At some point Sauron’s servants and the Balrog must have met. Over 500 years does pass between Sauron populating Moria with his creatures and the Fellowship entering Moria. It is certainly possible that the orcs and trolls of Moria were not loyal to Sauron at the time of the Lord of the Rings, but I'd say it is equally as likely that they were. I don't see why the Balrog would have any objections to Sauron's creatures cohabiting with him. The Balrog wouldn't necessarily be under Sauron's control, he could just be cooperating. After all, why antagonize someone like Sauron?
[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
obloquy
06-26-2002, 10:12 PM
Maybe. It's speculative, though.
Edit: And I'm not saying that it's odd for Tolkien to use the word 'creatures' in reference to orcs and trolls, just that in this case he refers to orcs first and then to Sauron's 'creatures'.
[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]
Daniel Telcontar
06-27-2002, 02:22 AM
I think that Sauron and the Balrog had the same relationship as he and Shelob. Sauron used Shelob as a guard, although he never had actual contact with her.
I think he considered the balrog to be an extra guard at Moria, and so he left him alone. The balrog on the other hand was content with being left alone.
Think of the seven year-war between orcs and dwarves. If the balrog had not been there, the dwarves would have retaken Moria.
Conclusion: The balrog and Sauron may never have meet, but they probably had some sort of agreement like: You (Sauron) keep out of Moria, and I (balrog) keep it clean of dwarves and other enemies.
Catherine
06-28-2002, 09:40 PM
Balrogs all da way!!! LOL
O'Boile
07-05-2002, 08:36 AM
The Balrog would win. Gandalf dies fighting one, and he is a Maia with a ring. How well would a human with a ring do? No contest on this. Also Galadriel says that there is no greater foe (than a balrog) save the dark lord himself.
Also, I read somewhere (I think that it was in the history of dwarf kings) that the balrog had awoken due to the revival (or re arising... I don't know what to call it) of Sauron. Anyway, the passage certainly implied that the Balrog was beneth him, and would have served him.
Daniel Telcontar
07-06-2002, 05:16 AM
I am not sure of that. The balrog fled form the destruction of Angband, and it was the dwarves who woke the balrog when they were searching for mithril. And it seems to me that the balrog did not "sleep" again until Gandalf put it to final sleep.
Kuruharan
07-07-2002, 03:19 PM
The text says both.
"Thus they roused from sleep* a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth."
The footnote says, "Or relesed it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron."
I take all this to mean that the presence of Sauron, who was beginning to stir again at that time, may have at least roused the Balrog into a more restless state of sleep if not exactly awaken it. However, I don't think that this implies that the Balrog was under Sauron. Just roused by the presence of another great evil. Like calling to like, after a fashion. I think the idea of an informal arrangement between the two best fits the evidence that we have.
[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
Orome
07-11-2002, 09:02 PM
No, none of the Balrogs were as powerful as Sauron. Not even Gothmog. Sorry.
How can you say this? Tolkien never gives a hierarchy of the power of the Maiar.
This is an interesting question, because they are never directly compared, and even indirectly there is little comparison.
while the One Ring is still around it is possible to destroy a nazgul, as evidenced by the killing of Angmar by Merry and Eowyn. I tend to favor the balrog, because it is a creature of fire, and the Nazgul feared fire, so the balrog should be able to single them out for one v. one fighting.
Kuruharan
07-11-2002, 09:21 PM
"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit that the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."
-The Valaquenta
Also, when Morgoth left Angband to ensnare the newly awakened Men, Sauron was the one left behind in command to fight the war.
I think it's pretty safe to say that Sauron was greater and higher ranking than the Balrogs.
However, I completely agree that a Balrog could turn your average Nazgul into a little pile of ashes.
[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
Orome
07-11-2002, 09:45 PM
good point. the guy was kinda annoying me
[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Orome ]
Aragost
07-12-2002, 08:51 AM
The Balrogs would win.The Balrogs were Maiar
after sauron they were Morgoth's most powerful servants.I might be wrong but I think 1 Balrog was =to all the Nazgul put together. smilies/wink.gif
Aragost
07-12-2002, 09:39 AM
I thought of something else the nazgul were afraid of fire the balrogs had fire.The nazgul would lose,but it does make a good argument. smilies/cool.gif
obloquy
07-12-2002, 05:46 PM
How can you say this? Tolkien never gives a hierarchy of the power of the Maiar.
In addition to Kuruharan's quote, we have:
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
From LotR.
And this:
"...Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur..."
From the '77 Silmarillion.
And this:
"Of old there was Sauron the Maia, whom the Sindar in Beleriand named Gorthaur. In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance, and he became the greatest and most trusted of the servants of the Enemy..."
From Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
And this:
"'The Abhorred' (in Sindarin called Gorthaur); greatest of the servants of Melkor, in his origin a Maia of Aulė."
From the index entry for "Sauron" in the '77 Silmarillion.
And this:
"Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor..."
From Unfinished Tales. Merriam-Webster online tells us that "prime" means "first in rank, authority, or significance".
This one applies particularly to your comment that 'they are never directly compared':
"Melkor had corrupted many spirits some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs."
From Myths Transformed.
And this:
"Now Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aulė."
From The Annals of Aman.
I don't suppose you're interested in debating the issue any further?
[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]
Orome
07-12-2002, 10:46 PM
i got it. it was just sortof anoying the way you said it.
vBulletin® v3.8.9 Beta 4, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.