gandalf as a maia

[dwarfguard]

who of the fellowship (if any)knew that gandalf was a maia and not just a "wizard".I think that elrond knew and probably cirdan knew.

[burrahobbit]

Nobody knew. It was a secret. Gandalf hardly even knew.

[dwarfguard]

if he hardly knew, then why did he remember he was called olorin in the west?

[burrahobbit]

That was one of the things that he remembered.

[Neithan]

And yet he basically told Faramir, "Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten". Of course Faramir probably wouldn't know the significance of that but it was quite a gamble that someone who did wouldn't hear of it.

[burrahobbit]

So now you are trying to tell me that Faramir is stupid? Because that's what it is looking like you are saying. Did you forget where he grew up?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

No-one in the fellowship knew. There were others in Middle-earth who might have had an inkling.

[dwarfguard]

i remember reading somewhere that someone suspected that he came from the west,thats why cirdan gave him his ring and said something like by these grey shores shall i await you and your labors will be hard.So he must of known.Right?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Cirdan had the distinct empirical advantage of witnessing Gandalf arrive from the West. So his suspicions were aroused somewhat.

[burrahobbit]

He had the empirical advantage of seeing him get off of a boat on the west coast.

[Maerbenn]

It is said in the first paragraph of the essay on the Istari published in Unfinished Tales that “none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.”

According to the third paragraph, it was “for long known only to Círdan” that the Ithron “came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West.”

[dwarfguard]

so, it makes you wonder how the fellowship explained the existence of wizards to themselves.I mean, its not everyday you meet a person of magical powers that returns from the dead.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You allude to a bold assertion Maerbenn. That historian obviously never considered the possibility that the Istari had merely been on a zany college drinking cruise.

Cirdan had certainly considered that possibility. A careful fellow, yea verily.

[lord of dor-lomin]

who of the fellowship (if any)knew that gandalf was a maia and not just a "wizard".I think that elrond knew and probably cirdan knew.
Elrond and Cirdan were in the Fellowship?

But I'm sure anyone who knew anything could figure it out that he was an Ainu, even if they couldn't figure out he was a Maia. He looks like a man but he can't be one since he just keeps living and living and doesn't turn wraith-like, he's too tall to be a dwarf or a hobbit, and he looks too old to be an elf- plus he doesn't have pointy ears, and everyone knows that elves have pointy ears. :p

What else can he be?

Another Bombadilish enigma? An ent that has grown mannish and shrunk?

He doesn't fit snugly into any category, so what's left? An Ainu!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, obviously. If you know what an Ainu is. Bilbo, for example, considered him a wizard. And that was that. That didn't make Bilbo stupid.

[lord of dor-lomin]

That didn't make Bilbo stupid.
But it did make him ignorant.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gandalf didn't know too much about the contents of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins's wardrobe. Gandalf was ignorant too.

[Anguirel]

When Olorin was hanging about being wise with Manwe and Varda and Nienna, before the death of the Trees, I thought it was mentioned that he liked the company of Elves? While I see him perhaps being more interested in the Vanyar, surely he would have met, even known quite well, Galadriel? But perhaps it took a while for her to recognise him-he was disguised as an old man, and they hadn't met for a wee while.

Still, it would seem she remembered him eventually. What else explains her favouritising of him over Curunir, his senior, with whom she had rather more in common? Of course, it's likely Curunir reminded her of Feanor and his sons. She may also have envied and suspected his power, resented his condescension. But all the same...I think she must have worked out who Mithrandir was.

And you'd definitely have thought Glorfindel would have known, even though Tolkien didn't mention him. Why, the fella was an honorary wizard, sharing Olorin's task! He'd certainly have known whence he'd come, even though he was sent back earlier, I suppose. I think this is an oversight, and Glorfindel should be included alongside the "Big Three"-as should, arguably, other Noldor such as Gildor. (Which would shed light on his remark about wizards.)

Oh, and Maglor would have known him at once, of course...

[lord of dor-lomin]

Gandalf didn't know too much about the contents of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins's wardrobe. Gandalf was ignorant too.
Yes, you're right. You seem to have an excellent understanding of what ignorant means. Congratulations.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

My point was that it is clear why your average resident of Middle-earth would have no concept of Ainur.

[Anguirel]

...please don't turn this into a semantic squabble. I come here for Tolkien rumination, not extra English Language AS sessions...thrilling as they are...let's get back to the topic at hand...

[The Saucepan Man]

Hear hear, Anguirel.

Petty, and ultimately pointless, points scoring serves no purpose but to clutter up the thread and drive it off topic.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm not sure about the severity of this example, though. lord supposed that it was clear that Gandalf was an Ainu, and thus the Fellowship could have worked it out (very simplified, I'm sorry!) I countered by arguing that it was not as simple as that.

I think we were on topic and ok. No?

[Eruanna]

I think it's a bit unfair to say that Bilbo was ignorant. With perhaps the exception of Cirdan, they were all as much in the dark as to the origins of the Istari. Only Cirdan, being the oldest and wisest, recognised Gandalf for what he was and treated him with due reverence. As he spent so much time with elves, Gandalf became accepted and valued by them over the centuries, without them necessarily understanding his full purpose.
Apart from those elves who had been to Aman would any of them have recognised a Maia anyway, even without the old man disguise?

Men seemed to think that Gandalf was an elf of some sort. From UT; The Istari :

'...he was called among the Men of the North Gandalf, 'the Elf of the Wand'. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind...

To the hobbits he was a wise and magical being. He was their friend but he could also show a more severe, sharper side. He was obviously not a hobbit, an elf or an ordinary man. What else could he be but a wizard?

Apart from his own abilities and talents Gandalf had the added enhancement of Narya. This magnified his 'open and friendly' spirit and made him beloved of those he had come to aid. It is possible that the power of the ring also helped to keep up the facade.

[lord of dor-lomin]

I think we were on topic and ok.
I thought so too, but I was wrong. In my last post I said something sarcastic, and apparantly it is impossible to be on topic and sarcastic at the same time. I got warned about that on another thread a while back. It's all my fault, Eomer, no reason to blush. ;)

I think most people in Middle Earth didn't care what he was. We're more curious about Middle Earth than it's own inhabitants. I guess most people I know are the same way. They don't care how their car works, just so long as it works, you know what I mean?

[Anguirel]

I think it's a bit unfair to say that Bilbo was ignorant. With perhaps the exception of Cirdan, they were all as much in the dark as to the origins of the Istari. Only Cirdan, being the oldest and wisest, recognised Gandalf for what he was and treated him with due reverence. As he spent so much time with elves, Gandalf became accepted and valued by them over the centuries, without them necessarily understanding his full purpose.
Apart from those elves who had been to Aman would any of them have recognised a Maia anyway, even without the old man disguise?

Men seemed to think that Gandalf was an elf of some sort.

To the hobbits he was a wise and magical being. He was their friend but he could also show a more severe, sharper side. He was obviously not a hobbit, an elf or an ordinary man. What else could he be but a wizard?


A few responses to these points. Elves like Galadriel and Gildor had been to Aman; and Glorfindel practically still had the light of Valinor in his eyes. Surely they would have cottoned on to at least the nature of the thing, if not Olorin himself?

Also, for some reason, I'm increasingly attracted by the idea that Gandalf and Galadriel were close friends in Valinor. Between them they were Tolkien's favourite characters, judging by the amount of material on them; Galadriel always showed Gandalf favour; she defended him against Celeborn's not-so-respectful epigraph. I like to think of it as similar to the relationship of Odysseus and Helen in the Iliad, though I know that has nothing to do with it.

Very interesting. So Men generally thought he was a sort of Cirdan? Reasonable enough. Explains the superstition of the Rohirrim regarding him; and perhaps some of Denethor's attitude too. Though would the likes of Denethor, Aragorn and Faramir have had a better idea of the situation?

Finally, note that the hobbits, and some men, seem to have imagined wizarding as a profession rather than a race. Sam is teased by Frodo as being a potential warrior or wizard in FOTR (out of the question, of course, if it was regarded as a separate race); Beorn describes Radagast as "not a bad sort, as wizards go", or something. Quite interesting.

[Thinlómien]

I think all people considered that he was a wizard. A wizard as a race, like hobbit. (Ok, no wizard children or wizard women, but I hope you can catch the idea of wizard as a race.) Or then just some extraordinary human-like being.
Some people might have been ignorant.
And I think Gandalf clearly knew wht he was, but the other persons in the fellowship didn't.

[drigel]

Interesting Galadriel thesis going on here. But, didnt Olorin "pass unseen" amongst the elves? Were the elves aware of his presence? I do think that I am adhering to the idea that Galadriel and her ilk (those who were Eldar or had come from the west) would have the ability to sense a soul that had "come from Aman", as it were.

But, if they actually knew they were Maia, more reverence would be shown to them, to the detriment of the original mission of the Istari. Galadriel would be less uppity towards Saurman at the White Council debates too, which would have profound effects on their strategy.

As for the average ME inhabitant, (IMO) Wizards were just another critter in the park. It would depend on ones experience/travels. The average man indeed would consider him an elf of somekind, because he/she would relate the fact that the wizard never expiring with the fair folk, or what they understood about them anyways. By the TA, men would have had more exposure to wizards than elves. For hobbits, wizards were wizards, but the attribute of never dying would not particularly be associated with elves. They had their Tom Bombadils, Goldberrys, Old Man Willows, etc.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

It rather stretches credulity to suggest that Aragorn didn't
know about Gandalf, not only was he head of the Dunedain
and raised as Elrond's foster son, but his fiances' grandma
was on friendly terms with Aragorn.
And Faramir had similar reasons to know of Gandalf's origins,
both from being "a wizard's pupil" and his daddy's
ability to have insights. And surely Faramir would have
discussed Gandalf with his admired older brother.

[dwarfguard]

does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?I mean, if she suspected anything, she might be afraid of the wrath of the valar and maybe she thought the wizards might be there to persecute her for leaving valinor?Or maybe she sensed his mission and kept silent for the fellowships sake?

[Anguirel]

With all due respect, drigel and dwarfguard , I think you're rather underestimating Galadriel. In whatever version of her story you believe, she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself. (Galadriel, Feanor and Saruman are awfully similar. Like repels like.) Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway.

Galadriel can't be messed with. She's not just great in Third Age terms; she's in the big three of greatest Elves ever (Feanor, Galadriel and the incongruous Luthien). She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power. If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia. And if she identified Olorin, she'd keep his secret only if she felt inclined to (and she would have done).

Good point about passing unseen, though. Slightly scuttles my ideas.

[dwarfguard]

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

[obloquy]

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

Not quite. We're not talking about Dragon Ball Z. "Power levels" are a pretty complicated thing in Tolkien's work. Galadriel would not have had anything to fear from Saruman personally, I daresay, just as Gandalf did not. "Stronger than any elf" may not be entirely accurate, either, as Tolkien said that some Elves were elevated to such a degree of mightiness as to approach the spiritual puissance of the Maiar. I believe this was written in reference to Glorfindel, and could obviously also apply to those considered "greater" than he.

[Boromir88]

If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog....

[drigel]

If you look at my posts, I am a Galadriel defender myself. And I do love a good debate, so I will be the devils advocate on this one, just because I am still interested. As long as its based on good natured, canon adhering ideas, I do like to throw it around some. Makes me think and learn

does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?
She was as wise as she was a great elf. IMO, (kind of aggreeing with DGuard) if she did anything, she confided to him -in private communication (either verbally or non-verbally). Im sure Gandalf did as well.

she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself
Pride and the desire to rule says a lot about her strength of spirit, yes. Her, and about 35,000 other Noldor defied the Valar...... so that says what about her personal physical attributes??

Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway.

ummm not sure what the point is here. Too many contradictions. I would say here that disdain is different than "calling him out" and identifying him as Sauron Gauthar. She is neither omnipresent nor is she omnipotent.

She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power

LOVE that. Awsome. Except for the unlimited part..


If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia.

She is accounted, of all the Eldar, one of the most powerfull, noble and wise. If it was an athletic contest, the smart money would be on G. But, she is an elf, not a comic book hero. She spent the majoritiy of her time in ME ruling, not personally fighting. As for the Maia deal, I would think that Saruman might be hampered due to the fact that he had to assume the physical embodiment that the Istari were confined to, but cmon dude - GvsS is to me like GvsBalrog. I would hope for the best, but my heart would tell me that she would not be long for this world. All a matter of opinion I guess....

[dwarfguard]

it might be because i was never much of an galadriel person, but i have to stick with what i said before.Theres no way she would stand a chance against saruman.Those staffs arent just for looks.I'm sure it came in handy for gandalf against that balrog.Although there is debate about elven "magic", i never seen her as much of a warrior, more of an mental warrior, so to speak, very strong willed.Oh yeah, whatever dragonball z is, i assure you it has nothing to do with it.I got that part about saruman being the most poweful from the books.Maybe someone known as a warrior like glorfindel or feanor could defeat him.

[Boromir88]

I'm sure it came in handy for gandalf against that balrog.Although there is debate about elven "magic", i never seen her as much of a warrior
She (with some help from Saruman) threw Sauron's butt out of Dol Guldur. She is also able to sustain Lorien with the power from her ring. And being a Noldor elf who has seen the two trees I would say she is quite a warrior if needed to be one.

[dwarfguard]

Actually sauron retreated to mordor once he knew they were on to him...But i guess ill give up my resistance since majority seems to be against me.But saruman would still defeat galadriel.thats just my opinion.I dont know what you guys think she could pull out of her a** to beat him, but more power to her.

[the phantom]

If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog...
Being wise and powerful is not the same thing as being very physically strong, very quick and agile, and extremely skillful with a weapon and experienced in hand to hand combat. Glorfindel is a warrior and I would expect him to have much more success in a physical battle than Galadriel.
She (with some help from Saruman) threw Sauron's butt out of Dol Guldur.
With her bare hands?
She is also able to sustain Lorien with the power from her ring
...which has nothing to do with how well she can swing a sword.
And being a Noldor elf who has seen the two trees
Viewing trees does not count as battle experience.
I would say she is quite a warrior if needed to be one.
I imagine she would do decent if she had to, but compete with Glorfindel or other such warriors? No.

[dwarfguard]

Ah, a partner in crime! as i said before, I see her as a wise spiritual elf, not a warrior.What would she do, stare him to death?But really, i believe she would put up a good fight.Also, had saruman not seen the two trees?Not that it matters for combat.

[Formendacil]

Just to get back to the original topic of the thread, it says that the Istari came to Middle-earth in the FORM of men, meaning tha physically speaking, their bodies were those of Men.

So, to those who knew no better, it was obvious to assume that they were men. Of course, once it was apparent that they had longer life than most, it would be obvious that they were more than ordinary men (wizards, if I may use the word). But only those who knew from whence they came (namely the Elves), would guess that that power came from being Maiar. They would assume that they were just very learned men (and I believe that Tolkien says something similar somewhere).

Now, most of the important Elves would likely know that the Istari arrived from the West, and the nature of getting back from Valinor being what it was, I think they would guess that the Istari were probably Maiar, but they really wouldn't have any way of knowing for sure unless they told, which it appears that they didn't.

A thought that came to me though is that in one of the ideas concerning the origin of the elessar, Gandalf brings it back from Aman, and gives it to Galadriel. In doing so, he practically tells her that he was from Valinor (if not that he was a Maia). Although this is hardly Tolkien's last word on the subject, perhaps it is indicative that it was known by the wise in Middle-earth that the Istari were Valinorean in origin.

[Anguirel]

I did not mean to say that Galadriel could kill Saruman, or would. In Britain, "to cut dead" means to disparage, to do down, to ignore, to insult-which Galadriel did do, to both Saruman and Annatar. I never intended to open a can of worms about Galadriel's physical prowess, only about her pride and confidence in herself and her status.

[drigel]

Gandalf brings it (elessar) back from Aman, and gives it to Galadriel
Most excellent point! And what would Cirdan think about the arrival of these "emmisaries from the west"? I suppose the really really old elf club would be a small organization, and old C would have a charter membership in that. He would deduce what the nature of these emmisaries, if they didnt clue him in. The giving of Narya is no small event either.

Imagine his wonderment at seeing a what would probably be a Teleri built ship coming to his harbour from the west (West). When was the last time that happened? Well - never (I think), considering that the last time an elf ship sailed east, his harbors were in the Falas, some few thousand miles away and some few thousand years ago... After getting over (I forget where I read this, but I am on the tangent that this is the resurrected Glor.) the fact that the mighty Glorfindel has returned from the Halls to ME, Cirdan watches 5 wizened old men w/staffs disembark. He would need some 'splaining - otherwise, he might get a little depressed - "is this it? - there will be more boats - right??" :)

I am swaying now to fall more under the impression that the wise among the Eldar, and eventually some humans (Aragorn and a few select Dunedain and possibly Denethor) knew of their nature and thier purpose. If they didnt reveal themselves, they would deduce it like the above Cirdan example. An learned ME individual could deduce that - if they knew they came from the west (which would be the key clue): they didnt die (werent men, although they looked like it), they werent elves, and they demonstrated the ability to produce "magic/power/force of thought/supernatural abilities"....

I admire Galadriel even more in her role at the White council and her leadership in general concerning this. She took the strategic philosophy and rejected the miopic, provincial route Denethor took - ".. we have done all this work and taken all this hardship - and what are you Istari doing for us?.." or, from Galadriels POV - "oh great, some more Maia come to ME to muck it up further for us, thats all we need right now..."

[Boromir88]

I did a topic on this before, here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11470) , that may be of some help (or not).

I think from looking at these two threads, we will never know who "knew," but it's fun to speculate. ;)

[drigel]

thanks boro!

thought i read that somewhere before - and tried the search function last night but I didnt do it right, apparantly....

[HerenIstarion]

I see no problem in supposition that literally nobody knew who or what Gandalf (and others) were. Inscrutable are the ways... For all elves knew, there may have been a lot of beings Eru installed in the created world they never heard about. Exactly the ground of Eregion's Noldor mistake - taking Annatar without examination of what might he be a travers his fair appearance. And noble ground at that - take the good your Lord gives you without judging it.

In this light, the initial question maybe answered as 'no, nobody in the fellowship, as well as outside it, knew what Gandalf really was'

There are pro arguments a-plenty as well, though:

I do not think such a total igonrance at all probable - Gandalf is a bit free in giving his Western name and indirect hinting and slips of the tongue as well, and there, as have been said above, are people around having enough data to add up 2 and 2 and get 4 at the end of equation. Cf, per isntance:

For I also am a steward. Did you not know?

Denethor is a scholar as well as a politician. The beads may be easily stringed - the rightful stewards of created things, whom the king of is Eru, are Valar. But Gandalf, if he were a Vala, would not find it difficult to get rid of Sauron. The search goes a step lower - Gandalf is a Maia. This intercourse alone is enough to deduct what Gandalf really is. But the tone of the whole sentence implies that Denethor is supposed to know, or have known the fact, and Gandalf merely reminds, expecting him to recall whom he is talking to.

Aragorn may have known:

'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said Aragorn at last, 'that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads.'

(But that citation itself may be viewed as containing the weak point - Aragorn compares Gandalf not to Sauron (whom he is equal of in status), but to his minions, probably on assumption they are his opposites, not Sauron himself)

Yet the initial question (fellowship's data) may be also answered thus: who cared and had appropriate sources, those knew. Cared not (supposedly) Legolas, Gimli, Pippin, Merry, Sam. The rest must have known:

1. Aragorn - on the ground of being Elrond's foster son and on the ground of being Heir of Faithful fo Numenor, and personal friend of Gandalf's
2. Boromir - on the ground of being Denethor's son and Faramir's brother. (but this one may be a dubious choice, after all, it is unclear if he cared or cared not - not being eager after knowledge, but rather fame)
3. Frodo - on the ground of his studies in Rivendell, of being the Ring-Bearer, Gandalf's personal friend, whom the latter valued more than many others, of being Bilbo's heir, who may have equally learned the truth from A. Gandalf, B. Elrond

As for validity of sources - Denethor I've explained, Elrond - may have learned the fact: A. From Gandalf himself, B From Cirdan C From Glorfindel.

***

Funnily enough, the conclusion that may be drawn from this considerable amount of assumptions and suppositions and speculations I took pains to provide you with may sound a paradox:

It does not matter who knew/knew not what Gandalf was whatsoever. The important thing was he was an exact antithesis of Evil Physically Present, the one which needed fighting against, and he had an authority (based rather on his deeds than his status) to rally the power of Good around himself to fight it. Or, in less words - 'let's go for Gandalf against Sauron, for Gandalf is brave, kind, just and loving', and not 'let's go for Gandalf for he is a maia'. It is exactly when Saruman started acquiring 'status' that his fall began.

Or, go Theoden!

cheers

[drigel]

Quite succinct and almost pithy Heren. :) The point to me is that, for the Wise and the commonfolk alike, here were beings in the shape of men, but something special or unique about them. But in most physical everyday aspects, walked talked and ate and drank like a man, not as Maia bestriding with their superiority and power. Analagous to Aragorn in many ways - all eyes see a man, but a few also see Hope.

Manwe did know best, didnt he? :)

[Boromir88]

Originally posted by The Phantom:Being wise and powerful is not the same thing as being very physically strong, very quick and agile, and extremely skillful with a weapon and experienced in hand to hand combat. Glorfindel is a warrior and I would expect him to have much more success in a physical battle than Galadriel.
We aren't talking about how good Galadriel could wield a sword. We were talking about her power compared to Saruman's. I made the connection with the Balrogs to show why Galadriel could contend with Saruman. Since it takes an extremely powerful person to slay a balrog (yes sword/weapon skill is a contributing factor, but it does you no good if you are mortal). It takes an innate power/"magical" person to slay a Balrog, that's why no mortal ever did.

I don't feel any reason to respond to the rest of your sarcasm since you clearly have missed the point.

[the phantom]

We aren't talking about how good Galadriel could wield a sword. We were talking about her power compared to Saruman's. I made the connection with the Balrogs to show why Galadriel could contend with Saruman. Since it takes an extremely powerful person to slay a balrog...
My post was in response to you bringing balrog confrontation into the power equation. This should not be done, because slaying a balrog is a one-on-one battle, a warrior's duel. This is not an accurate way to compare overall power (the sum of all one's skills and abilities). Therefore, this method should not be used as proof that Galadriel could somehow take on Saruman, person to person.

Just because someone is more powerful overall than Ecthelion or Glorfindel (balrog slayers) does not mean that they could take on a balrog. That was my entire point.
I don't feel any reason to respond to the rest of your sarcasm since you clearly have missed the point.
Hmm... I reread my post and I am unable to detect any sarcastic statements. Everything I say seems to be entirely accurate and in direct support of the point I was making. Do not be so eager to snipe, Boromir, especially in my direction. I don't like it. Stick to picking apart my suppositions.

[dwarfguard]

yeah.. I really didnt detect any sarcasm either, just your opinion on the matter.Anyway, i believe the general consensus is that nobody in the fellowship and out of middle-earth, possibly only cirdan, elrond and galadriel had any idea.Correct?

[The Saucepan Man]

Please let's not let this thread descend into petty squabbling and points scoring again.

i believe the general consensus is that nobody in the fellowship and out of middle-earth, possibly only cirdan, elrond and galadriel had any idea.Correct?Well, that would appear to have been Tolkien's thoughts on the matter. As Maerbenn posted back near the beginning of this thread:

It is said in the first paragraph of the essay on the Istari published in Unfinished Tales that “none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.”It's not strictly canon, but it seems pretty decisive to me if one is inclined to accept the factual matters stated in the "unpublished" materials.

[Rumil]

I'd guess that the reactions of most humans, hobbits and dwarves (without special knowledge) to Gandalf would be initially that he was simply a wise old man. The next problem facing the 'unlearned Gandalf considerers' would be that he was exceptionally long lived.

How would a typical inhabitant of say, Esgaroth, Gondor or Rohan react to this?

Firstly, Gandalf was a wanderer and may have appeared so infrequently that only folk memories of him existed in a certain town and therefore he could have been seen as the heir of 'original Gandalf'.

Secondly, a Numenorean, the knowledge of their long lifespan would be fairly widespread.

Third, an elf, which is implied by his name amogst the notherners. This may be easier to understand if we remember that in most human habitations (apart from Esgaroth) elves were never, or exceptionally rarely, seen.

I think the fourth likelihood is more believable. Everyone seems to classify Gandalf as a wizard, while not really knowing any details of what a wizard was. Would it not be natural for most folk to believe that he had secured longevity by 'magical' studies, sorcery or whatever? There is some backup for humans with 'magical' powers, Beorn, the Mouth of Sauron and the Nazgul in their early days come to mind. It also seems likely that the Mouth had managed to extend his lifespan. Maybe this was a reason that Denethor disliked Gandalf. The Gondorians had always been interested in magical life extension and Gandalf was refusing to tell the secret!

I guess fifth, sixth and seventh lielihoods are Maiar, Valar, or Unknown. I'd imagine that many went for the Unknown option but that few would go for fifth and sixth.

[HerenIstarion]

It also seems likely that the Mouth had managed to extend his lifespan

Not to drift off despite brave attempts not to, see the age old discussion in Magic in Middle Earth (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?p=40915) by Saulotus. Mouth discussion starts around post #15. For those with a limited time to read it, short summary - I believe it is impossible to extend one's lifespan without a) becoming a wraith b) special grace of Eru through Valar (this latter may be viewed as natural ability of the organism in harmony with its environment and Eru's laws = Númenoreans before the fall)

Back to topic: for men, I'd vote for elven theory (Gand + alf). Cirdan was bearded (third phase of elven lifespan, see Gillete, the best Cirdan can get (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=2501) by latando angaina), so aged appearance would not have been that much of an obstacle (cf point made by Eruanna, post #25, I more or less repeat it adding up the beard :D)

Elves must have known Gandalf for other then themselves. But in this case, 'do not judge good brought by your Lord' principle mentioned in my previous may have come into play, and elves (apart from the Wise) simply never questioned what Gandalf was. Position like to that of Fangorn - learning about hobbits, he simply adds them up to the list of living things, without asking for credentials, passports or other paperwork (the latter bent for attestation being desease of modern thinking) (i.e. virtual encounter: 'who are you, father?' 'I'm Gandalf' [some centuries later] 'you are still in business, father?' 'why should I leave business unfinished?' 'wise answer, he is a wise one... he's a wizard' (mental note - smart bearded men who do not die as all others do are 'wizards' - must be special subsection of men, or maybe creatures other than, whatever. Inscrutable are... end of inquiry)

[the phantom]

I stumbled upon a passage today that I thought belonged here on this thread.

Pippin wondering about Gandalf (ROTK, Minas Tirith)...
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. 'How much older?' he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?

[Halbarad]

Interesting quote Phantom, and in this context it made me think of something (which is probably why you posted it). I'd be willing to bet that hardly anyone ever thought about Gandalfs age, so a question of who or what he was probably wouldn't have occured to anyone. Pippin finally asked this question after seeing Gandalf in contention with a mighty Man. Would anyone subscribe to the idea that there was some quality about the Istari that discouraged that kind of questioning?

[swiftshadowofutumno]

Its my first post here, so hi everyone!

It seems to me that the essence of the Istari was very different to that of the Maiar. As I [vaguely] recall, the Maiar were somewhat taken aback by Manwe's request for emissaries to ME. Olorin was afraid of Sauron. It was as if the process of incarnation was scary for some reason - Yet the Maiar regularly became incarnated, so one must assume that in this case its for some other, underlying reason.

That reason being that, as Istari, they arent really Maiar any more. They are not bound by the Song of Illuvatar as once they were - prone to the temptations of power or the flesh as they never were in Valinor, they can fall by the wayside.

IMHO, the origins of the Istari were unimportant to those in ME. It is the spirit that currently fills them that matters. People do not sit around in the White Tower ruminating about where Sauron came from - it is the role that he plays in their lives that is important.

As Gandalf comes as a pure emissary of Eru (well, almost pure :) ), it is THIS that Cirdan/Galadriel/Elrond/(Celeborn?) sense. When Galadriel speaks with Frodo, they speak almost as equals in spiritual stature (perhaps not /power/). She doesnt treat him "as a hobbit".

Just as with Gandalf. Those of the White Council who did know or hear rumours of the origins of the Istari either kept it to themselves or did not care. Gandalf is a man first, a Maia second. I do not think that the Elves or others of the Wise would see it any other way.

Likewise, when Saruman becomes evil, no metaphysical notions are raised of "an angel falling to the dark side" (or however youd like to put it). The notions raised are of human treachery, limitation, weakness in the face of overpowering force - despair. Again, nobody sits around thinking "No way dude, but he came from the West!" ... they just get on with it.

Basically, IMO, the way in which the Maia-ness of the Istari would be perceived is dependent on their actual personalities. But thats just my two cents.

And on the Galadriel issue, well, "The female of the species is more deadly than the male." Wouldnt be surprised if Balrogs just fled from her presence. (Though I do not think that she'd be a totally psycho with a blade, I would expect a certain degree of expertise. No person could live through, be a part of and witness that many thousands of years of battles without picking up some training.)

Ty for listening to me ramble
Craig