What power is Elrond referring to?

[SoldierofMinisTirith]

Elrond refers to a power that is still present that protects the Shire, as well as Rivendell. What source of power is he talking about? Re: Council of Elrond chapter?

[Anguirel]

Have you finished the Lord of the Rings yet? I've a pretty good idea of what he means, but I don't want to spoil it for you.

[SoldierofMinisTirith]

Yes I have read it I just want clarification on it..

[Anguirel]

He's probably talking about the Dunedain of Arnor, Rangers like Aragorn and Halbarad who guarded the Shire in particular and Eriador in general from enemies. At least, that seems the most likely answer to me.

[SoldierofMinisTirith]

Oh I knew that...thought it was another source of power like an Elvish one like Elrond in Rivendell etc...thank you though!

[Anguirel]

It could also be Vilya, the Elven-ring Elrond carries, but that doesn't have much to do with the safety of the Shire.

[Rumil]

I had the impression that Elrond was referring not only to the Dunedain guardians but to the abilities and character of the Hobbits themselves. Although primarily peaceful, when danger threatened the Hobbits could band together for self defence, as they appear to have done during the Fell Winter and the Battle of Greenfields and as, after a little prodding, they did at the Battle of Bywater.

I guess this also brings in the stable settled nature of the Shire and the deep co-operative links that bound its inhabitants together (in a sort of 'still waters run deep' sort of fashion). One might say that Hobbits are, essentially, good folk and would look out for one another at times of crisis.

To speculate wildly, maybe their peaceful way of life had also attracted some indistinct and nebulous protection from the great powers, the Valar or even perhaps Eru. Did Gandalf perhaps subconciously display the wishes of his masters by his benevolent regard for the Shire Folk?

[Ainaserkewen]

Just as I was thinking Rumil.

Perhaps also some of the protective power came not only by the innocence and hardiness of Hobbits but also by their non-existence. Sauron didn't even know Hobbits existed until he caught Gollum. Also, I'd like to speculate that perhaps the "higher ups", Gandalf, Elrond, etc. might of had a hand in their secrecy. Hobbits represented the wholesomeness in Middle-Earth and Gandalf, if not other great lords, wanted to protect that. The Dunedain not only protected the Hobbits physically from intruders, but also in their actual hiding of them from the outside world. I'd like to suggest that the stories and fairy tales about Hobbits known in Rohan and other realms might have been encouraged on purpose.

[Nimrodel_9]

Why do you think Elrond and the Rangers were so set on protecting the Shire? Because they are defenseless? No, Hobbits can somewhat defend themselves. Because they are almost defensless. Anywho. Perhaps Elrond kinda foresaw that a hobbit would be the one to decide the fate of Middle-earth. I'm answering my own question... :p

[Ainaserkewen]

It would make total sense that it was Frodo's destiny to be the ring bearer and that Elrond or Gandalf had predicted that. But how? Did they think that it was merely a matter of time before a Hobbit would do something important? Or is there some magic in the whole thing?

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Gandalf see something interesting about Bilbo's treatment of the Ring when he found it? 'Cause the normally honest hobbit lied, or something like that.

(Forgive any bizarre/incoherent posts this morning. I only woke up fifteen minutes ago.)

[luthien-elvenprincess]

At the council of Elrond, Gandalf mentions that seventeen years prior he became aware that:
spies of many sorts, even beasts and birds, were gathered around the Shire, and my fear grew. I called for the help of the Dunedain, and their watch was doubled;

I think that Gandalf read many little signs, and put together many little bits of knowledge (including the rhyme that spoke of "the Halfing forth shall stand") to finally come to the realization that Frodo had the One Ring and was indeed the chosen ringbearer.

After Frodo says that he will take the ring to Mordor, the words of Elrond seem to indicate that no one had really known prior to the councel who would be responsible for the ring.
"If I understand aright all that I have heard, I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?

[Ainaserkewen]

Yes, but "the Halfing forth shall stand" came in a more or less recent dream away in Gondor. Also, the spies from Mordor would have come after Bilbo attained the ring and there was hard core evidence that something was to happen. Gandalf said the watch was doubled so there was a watch previous to that around the Shire. Is there some kind of magic that happened to alert Gandalf prior to the events of "The Hobbit"?

And while it was brought up, the dream that Faramir and Boromir share...where did that come from? Does the future just show itself to people every now and again like any other fantasy book, or is there evidence that that was deliberate?

[luthien-elvenprincess]

The members of the Dunedain were watching over all lands. The Rangers of the North would have been responsible for the area that included the Shire. Gandalf doubled the watch on the Shire region as he saw an increased interest from the enemy in that area. Frodo recognized Faramir and gang as "Dunedain of the South" when he met them in the chapter "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbits".

My point is that Gandalf, in remaining true to his purpose of coming to ME, put together many signs/clues to recognize that Frodo was the ringbearer. More and more signs appeared as the time drew nearer for action. I don't think anyone really predicted that Frodo was the man...they recognized the signs as they came.

[drigel]

What I got out of The Quest for Erebor in UT was insight into Gandalf's mission: To recruit and rally all the free peoples of ME in the struggle against Sauron, including the most provincial and homely creatures which were Hobbits. :)

[Mithalwen]

And while it was brought up, the dream that Faramir and Boromir share...where did that come from? Does the future just show itself to people every now and again like any other fantasy book, or is there evidence that that was deliberate?


I asked a similar question a while back in a thread concerning fate in ME but alas none answered - but I think it is significant that Boromir set out long before Frodo - maybe even before Frodo knew. (Don't have ROTK to h and)

[A_Brandybuck]

Maybe it is far-fetched, but Gandalf (or rather his former person Olórin) is a specialist for giving visions to the Elves. The passage in the Sil tells us that, but it doesn't really fit the dream of Boromir and Faramir. Or the dream (vision) of Frodo in the House of Bombadil, which showed Frodo his possibly fate, that he will come to the Undying Lands.
This dreams are telling the future or the possibly future and Olórins visions are fair and giving hope.

The Silmarillion, Of the Maiar:
[i]But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.[/i ]

But there was in eveery case a power of foresight in Middle-Earth. We know it from Galadriel and her mirror, which are very similar to the vision, which Frodo had. The seen things are not really the future, but they could it be.

[Ainaserkewen]

A_Brandybuck, that is a very good suggestion. I'd like to add on to it...

Perhaps it was Gandalf who spread those dreams to the brothers of Gondor, a little far-fetched though because of his present state of being (human). But what about another "God" or mayber even Eru himself? Someone is hinting towards the hobbits that is clear.

[Amrod the Hunter]

Maybe it was even some of Valar or some of their messengers,like Eonwe.I think it wasn't Gandalf because he had to save his strength and I also think that,while in human form,his power was reduced.

[Gurthang]

Didn't Elrond also have foresight. Maybe he saw that the Shire would be important somehow, and so took an interest into its well-being.

Another far-fetched idea. Maybe beings who could use Osanwe(correct?) could induce visions on beings who could not 'hear' Osanwe. That would make sense with Frodo's vision and might partially explain Faramir/Boromir's dream.

[Ainaserkewen]

Didn't Elrond also have foresight. I never got that in the movie. What does "foresight" really mean anyway? I mean, I know it means you can see the future and what not, but why? And how? Elrond in particular. As far as I remember, I think a thread here came to the conclution that he was just really smart and could put together the puzzle pieces better because of his age and wisdom. There was obviously some magic involved here, but I doubt it was Elrond's...but I may be wrong because of whatever "powers" being a keeper of one of the Elvish rings brings you. Perhaps that's to be considered.

You know, I love these speculation threads...in a way, they're like thought experiments with no real evidence from the text, only ideas from the readers.

[Felagund]

Perhaps the whole thing isn't meant to have an explanantion? I doubt there is a conspiracy, or plan, involved in the "dispensing" of dreams and visions and foresight amongst various characters. What if, rather, the great tide of events took on a life of their own? Like the rumblings in the Earth that precede an Earthquake, for example? People all across the North-West of Middle-Earth just heard a piece of the tremors, before it hit. Or perhaps, according to the song, or theme, and the design of Eru, that these things were meant to happen (part of a Doom), and thus fulfil Eru's plan. It seems to me, throughout all the pieces written by Tolkien that the things that are meant to happen, invariably do. Frodo's Quest was meant to happen, and thus it did, because of the coming together of many, often fractious, forces at work in Middle-Earth.


-Felagund

[cookieman]

The Shire is very close to the White Towers and the Grey Havens. Cirdan and other elves might be considered a "power" of some sort. Similar, perhaps, to Lorien and Rivendell. Other Elf Lords still lived in Middle Earth, remember Glorifendel. It would would be reasonable to believe that other powerful elves, even if they aren't specifically mentioned, lived near and guarded the Shire. Also, don't forget Bombadill to the east.

[narfforc]

I wonder if Tolkien knew or conceived of the idea, that he had surrounded The Shire with powerful peoples. Hobbiton is on an almost straight line East to West between Rivendell (Elrond) and The Grey Havens (Cirdan). To the South is Bombadil and to the North, The Dunedain wander their ancient realm (also doing border patrol around The Shire). Not forgetting that The Elves wandered The Woody end during Spring and Autumn from The Tower Hills to the West. So all in all The Shire had many powers/peoples protecting it.

[Gurthang]

It seems to me that there is a greater power at work here. The Shire is being protected on all sides by presumably powerful people. Yet it seems that none of these people knew exactly why they were hiding the Shire. None of them knew of the Ring, that is for sure; and even if they had, they were protecting the Hobbits long before the Ring ever came there.

It seems more than coincidental to me that they were protecting this land (apperently without a reason) and that eventually it came to be key in the overthrowing of Sauron. Maybe Eru had a hand in this coincidence? Perhaps He gave that knowledge to Elrond as 'foresight'. Maybe Elrond did not understand why, but he would have known that the Shire would be important and would need to be protected and hidden.

[davem]

Don't know if its relevant, but there is the passage in The Hunt for the Ring (UT):

My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths’ fear of water....Thus of the rider (who was in fact Khamul of Dol Guldur*) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the hobbits had crossed it is said that ‘ he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of movement’, & that the Nazgul would not touch the ‘elvish’ waters of Baranduin**.

*From notes recounting in detail the movements of the black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it was Khamul who came to Hobbiton & spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the hobbits along the road to stock, & who narrowly missed them at Bucklebury Ferry. The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, & with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was ‘his companion from Dol Guldur’. Of Khamul it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgul, after the Black Captain himself, to percievethe presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused & diminished by daylight.

**[At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch King & two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel & Aragorn.

[narfforc]

Davem raises a good point here, maybe The Ringwraiths sensed the presence of Ulmo`s power in the river. Although Tolkien doesn`t say much about The Valar in LotR, what we know of them from The Silmarillion tells us that Ulmo took special interest in Middle Earth. Tolkien says that the servents of the Enemy feared water and there was a special emnity between Melkor and Ulmo.

[Gurthang]

As far as the water goes, it did have a power; although not necessarily an 'elvish' power.

From Ainulindalë:

…And they observed the winds and the air, and the matters of which Arda was made, of iron and stone and silver and gold and many substances: but of all these water they most greatly praised. And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur [emphasis mine] more than in any substance else that is in this Earth…