Gandalf a "steward?"

[Boromir88]

While reading an excellent post on another forum it posed the question of whether Gandalf saying that he was also a "steward" is more symbolic/metaphorical or if we can see Gandalf as actually being a "steward."
"If you understand it, then be content," returned Denethor. "Pride would be folly that disdained help and counsel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again."
"Unless the king should come again?" said Gandalf. "Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this" the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor, nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anythig else passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flawer again in days to come. For I am a steward. Did you not know?"

Tolkien establishes a difference between Denethor's definition of "Steward", and Gandalf's definition of "steward." Notice the use of capitilized, uncapitilized.

There can be two different meanings behind the word Steward. Denethor takes his "Stewardship" as he is the "Lord of Gondor," he is it's absolute ruler, and he throws this lackluster response at the end..."I remain in power! Ohhh...unless the king returns." Where another possible word for steward is "guardian." They look over, protect, land/property for it's master.

I think we can all see that throughout the book Gandalf fulfills this stewardship role, he is the caretaker of Middle-earth. But is this supposed to be taken more symbolically? Or is Gandalf the actual steward of Middle-earth? The "steward" of Eru? "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." In that matter, could we also think that all the Istari were the "stewards of Middle-earth," just they strayed from their "stewardship" task?

[Formendacil]

Gandalf says "I am also a steward."

He does not say "I am the steward."

Thus, the door is easily left open to there being several stewards of Middle-earth. Indeed, are not all the Valar and the Maiar "stewards" of Arda, awaiting the "Return of the King"?

Cheers!

[Nimrodel_9]

Indeed, are not all the Valar and the Maiar "stewards" of Arda, awaiting the "Return of the King"? I suppose that's right. The wizard's were sent to Middle-earth to kinda take care of it, and keep it in order. That is what a steward does.

[Boromir88]

Now that I think about it Nim, they were sort of the Stewards for the Valar. The Valar tried to intervene before, and it didn't seem to work out to well.

Also, it would sort of explain better why Gandalf was the only Istari to succeed in his task. Saruman is pretty self-explanatory. Alatar and Pallando, just not much is said on what they did over there in the east. Radagast was in a way a "steward" of the birds/nature, but as an istar, he was supposed to be a steward of all middle-earth, hence why he falls short.

Good observation Formendacil, using "a" instead of "the."

[Tuor of Gondolin]

As for the Blue Wizards, I'm not all that sure they "failed" totally.
Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere in "Letters" that they were sent as
emessaries to the east (like missionaries), and that they may have had some positive effect in disuniting the eastern and southern peoples from
uniting against the west? I'll have to reread letters, etc.

Radagast is a generally curiously ineffective istari, for good or evil.

But since even Saruman was given more then one chance to repent,
it would seem possible that the other three wizards were welcomed back to
Valinor.- especially given the extremely difficult working conditions of the
Blue Wizards.

[Eruanna]

Tolkien himself wasn't sure of the effect of the Blue Wizards in the east, I seem to remember that he said (in Letters) that he saw them as being the founders of secret societies and religions. Who can say if they failed, perhaps this was their purpose.

The question of 'stewardship' is interesting, when Gandalf says:

"But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care...For I am a steward. Did you not know?"

He seems to be using the title 'steward' almost in its mediaeval sense. As one who takes care of the domestic household and servants of the lord. Another word for steward in those times was 'seneschal'. This word (bearing in mind the Professor's love of words) has its roots in Latin/Ancient Germanic/Anglo Saxon, meaning 'old servant'. I wonder if this was just a coincidence, given the physical appearance of the Istari as they wandered Middle-earth.

[Thinlómien]

Gandalf is the/a steward of Middle-Earth while valar aren't there (on a way), as Denethor is the steward of Gondor while the king is away. Gandalf's job is just different. He doesn't actually rule ME. So when talking about Gandalf 'steward' means 'envoy' or 'messenger'.

[Boromir88]

I think a bigger question is, is Gandalf in a way an "authority" when it comes to being the steward of Middle-earth? What I mean is does he hold some sort of authoratative power, where some other people of power (Theoden, Aragorn, Denethor) have to listen to him?

I can't recall anytime when Gandalf made someone listen to him, but he's very good at getting people to do what he wants. But, is this more of the fact that people are smart enough to listen to his advice?

[Celuien]

Maybe the fact that Gandalf doesn't force anyone to listen to what he says is part of the difference between the good and evil forces in Middle Earth. The only characters I've noticed actively forcing another to do something have been on the Morgoth/Sauron side. Something along the lines of you can't be forced to do the right thing. Or also, that you can't remain in the role of good if you try to force your will on to others, even if it's "for their own good" or done in a subtle way - shades of Saurman and a lust for power?

[obloquy]

rolf,,,,gandolf likes stew !!!

[Mansun]

While reading an excellent post on another forum it posed the question of whether Gandalf saying that he was also a "steward" is more symbolic/metaphorical or if we can see Gandalf as actually being a "steward."


Tolkien establishes a difference between Denethor's definition of "Steward", and Gandalf's definition of "steward." Notice the use of capitilized, uncapitilized.

There can be two different meanings behind the word Steward. Denethor takes his "Stewardship" as he is the "Lord of Gondor," he is it's absolute ruler, and he throws this lackluster response at the end..."I remain in power! Ohhh...unless the king returns." Where another possible word for steward is "guardian." They look over, protect, land/property for it's master.

I think we can all see that throughout the book Gandalf fulfills this stewardship role, he is the caretaker of Middle-earth. But is this supposed to be taken more symbolically? Or is Gandalf the actual steward of Middle-earth? The "steward" of Eru? "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." In that matter, could we also think that all the Istari were the "stewards of Middle-earth," just they strayed from their "stewardship" task?

The above post clearly implies that Gandalf was actually a much more powerful opponent than the WK, but was forbidden by Eru to reveal his true power against the enemy, as that was not the reason Eru sent the Istari to ME. Thats why Tolkein decided not to allow a direct battle between him and the WK. I think that the WK (and almost everybody in ME for tht matter) was not aware of the true nature of Gandalf, hence his abusive curses as the two confronted each other.

The WK could not have killed Gandalf, only a being of similar or greater stature, such as a Balrog, or Sauron, could have done so. Gandalf might have been anxious to face the WK, but that was probably because the WK was more than a match for anybody else in Gondor, and could sway the outcome of the fate of ME during the siege of Gondor, unless Gandalf confronted him, and also of the folly of Denethor. Gonder was vulnerable even with the aid of Rohan.

[Mansun]

PJ obviously did not think this would work well in the film, leaving people new to the LOTR confused.

[Rhod the Red]

There's no need to take the phrase literally. Gandalf was simply implying that he is also responsible for others the same as Denethor is.

[Legolas]

Right. Gandalf is certainly one of the highest stewards, but it is a role that he thought all should take on. He says this when speaking to the Lords of the West in XI. Chapter 9, 'The Last Debate':

'Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.'

[Rhod the Red]

That's not what he is saying, Legolas. As you can see in the quote you used, once again inaccuately, Gandalf is calling on the Lords assembled to make decisions as usual despite the challenges they were facing.

[Selmo]

Denethor sees a steward as someone who rules in the place of another, in his case, in place of an absent King. Gandalf reminds him that the proper role of a steward is to serve, not to rule.

Like Gandalf, I am a Steward. Like Gandalf, I was chosen by others on behalf of a super-natural agency to fullfil certain functions. My tasks are to care and to serve. I have responsibilities but no power or authority over others.

Denethor is reminded of this idea of Stewardship. Gandalf, while recognising his great responsibility for Gondor, tries to tell him that he need not take the woes of all the world on his own shoulders and that if he will be a serving steward as well as a Rulling Steward, then other stewards, all those who serve and care for Middle Earth, can help him to carry the load.

In his pride, Denethor will not serve, only rule. He takes the whole load on himself and it's weight crushes him.
.

[Rhod the Red]

Hear, hear! Well said!

[Legolas]

"once again inaccurately" - what does that mean?

It is accurate. Try reading it again.

Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.

He is asking that everyone be stewards of Middle-earth - not to be great generals of countries, but to simply take care of the world whereever they are.

steward - one who manages another's property, finances, or other affairs

[davem]

'Steward' in this context seems equivalent to 'Thain' in the Shire: 'They chose from their own chiefs a Thain to hold the authority of the king that was gone.' (LotR Prologue).

The section in italics makes it clear that the Thain was to all intents & purposes in the position of the King, with all his power & authority. The Steward is in the same position in Gondor - unless the King returns. Denethor, therefore is not simply a 'servant' - he is 'King'. As is the Thain in the Shire. Gandalf is 'Steward' in that he is the representative of the Valar (possibly of Eru, rather, as even though it was the Valar who sent him to Middle-earth, it seems from his words to Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas that he had strayed beyond thought & time - ie beyond/outside Arda itself - that it was He who sent him back). It seems what Gandalf is saying is that while Denethor may be Steward/representative of the political & temporal ruler of M-e, he, Gandalf, is Steward/representative of the Divine ruler of all things. Its the old division of Church & State thing.

[tom bombariffic]

Originally posted by Legolas:

it is a role that he thought all should take on

Originally posted by Selmo:

all those who serve and care for Middle Earth, can help him to carry the load.

How are these two responses drastically different? How can one be "again inaccurate" and the other be "well said"? Both Legolas and Selmo appear to me to be saying that Gandalf's opinion is that a steward should not rule alone, but be aided in his role by anyone who cares for, and thus is responsible for, middle earth, in which way we all become 'stewards'.

As far as I can see they just used different semantics to express the same general point (a good one at that).

Originally posted by Rhod The Red:
Gandalf is calling on the Lords assembled to make decisions as usual despite the challenges they were facing.

This is another good message to be drawn from the quote cited by Legolas. Gandalf does press the need to keep making decisions and working, even if the benefits will only be for future generations, but by referring to "us" he also makes it a collective responsibility, again making everyone responsible for middle earth, and thus all 'stewards' of middle earth.

bombariffic

[Boromir88]

Legolas brings up a good point and it goes to the very beginning of this thread. The two different definitions of the word "Stewards."

Denethor's "Steward" is to rule and run the Kingdom as davem points out. Which was the job of the Stewards until a King should return. Hence the title "ruling Steward."

Where Gandalf's "steward," is to act more as an emissary of the Vala and Eru, and to be a caretaker. Also, I would like to point out Formendacil's point when Gandalf says:
"For I am a steward."
The keyword being "a," Gandalf is not the only "steward" there are others. And as Legolas shows Gandalf wants others to act as "stewards."

It comes down to the difference between the two definitions. Tolkien was a linguist, as he purposefully left one capitilized and the other not to emphasize the difference between "Steward" and "steward."

[Selmo]

"Steward" in Denethor's case is capitalised because it's a title, not a common noun.

One point that comes out of the conversation between Gandalf and Denethor is that although Denethor has the title Steward, he is not acting as a steward. A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself. He may be sitting on a plain wooden chair on the lowest step below the Throne but he is, in effect, not steward but Ruler. He calls himself the Lord of Gondor and acts as, and believes himself to be, the King. He rejects the idea that the line of the Kings could ever be re-established.

Gandalf tells him that he should be a steward as well as having the title Steward. As a steward of Gondor, his care for the land and its people should out-weigh his pride as Steward of Gondor, and that that care should mean swallowing his pride and accepting Gandalf's help and advice.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Some posters have suggested that one of Gandalf's roles as a steward is that of Envoy or messenger of The Valar.
I don't see it. If he were a messenger, he would be proclaiming the message he had been given by his masters. He doesn't do that. He never speaks of The Valar or his own origins. Only Cirdan and a few others know that he has come from The West and no-one, except perhaps Galadrial, realises that he is Maiar.
.

[The Saucepan Man]

One point that comes out of the conversation between Gandalf and Denethor is that although Denethor has the title Steward, he is not acting as a steward. A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself ...

Gandalf tells him that he should be a steward as well as having the title Steward. As a steward of Gondor, his care for the land and its people should out-weigh his pride as Steward of Gondor.(emphasis added)

Interesting that Tolkien, in one of his Letters I think, describes Denethor as a politician, as there is a message there for today's politicians ...

[davem]

A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself. He may be sitting on a plain wooden chair on the lowest step below the Throne but he is, in effect, not steward but Ruler. He calls himself the Lord of Gondor and acts as, and believes himself to be, the King. He rejects the idea that the line of the Kings could ever be re-established.

Well, there are no more Kings of Gondor, & more importantly no-one with a legal claim to the Kingship. The last king of the line of Anarion is long dead. That means that there will be no new king as far as Denethor is concerned. The House of Isildur is 'Long bereft of lordship & dignity' – the first part of that statement is absolutely correct from Denethor's pov. The second part is at least arguable (in terms of the 'House'. The Arnorian kings were pretty useless.

Hence Denethor is king in all but name & has not only the power, but more importantly the responsibility of the king. Of course he has come to identify himself with the realm & has a pretty inflated ego by the end, but based on what he knows of them the House of Arnor are a disaster waiting to happen. We know Aragorn, he does not. There's a war on, & disaster is just around the corner. Then some wizard pops up & intends to put the last loser of a line of losers on the throne. What is any war leader going to do in that situation. And Gandalf doesn't help Denethor in the slightest way to understand the situation. Denethor has isolated himself & come to believe that the safety of the Realm depends on his rule. Put yourself in his position – would you just hand over the rule of the city & realm to a total stranger with no rightful claim just because some wizard pops up & tells you to? His own line has failed – Faramir has just handed the Ring over to Sauron by letting Frodo go.

I think there is a misunderstanding of the role of 'Steward' in this context. We're not talking of the political equivalent of wine stewardhere, but of someone who stands in for the King. In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway.

[Rhod the Red]

"In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway." Why? Isn't the line of Isildur legitmaite in your view?

[davem]

"In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway." Why? Isn't the line of Isildur legitmaite in your view?

Pelendur & the Council decided it wasn't legitimate in 1944. My view is beside the point, really. Aragorn did not have a legal claim on the throne according to Gondorian law.

[Boromir88]

davem, I agree to an extent. According to the rules set down by Pelendur and the Council, Arvedui's claim was illegitimate (which the law itself they made is what was illegitimate. They found a loophole and they took advantage of it. Politics and power will do that. :p )

The loophole in Arvedui's claim is he claimed to be Isildur's heir, and was restoring the High Kingship. Where the Council found the loophole that Isildur forsook his Kingdom:
The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anßrion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor.~Appendix A: Of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
And we are told that:
But soon he departed, and after he had given counsel to Meneldil, his brother's son, and had committed to him the realm of the south, he bore away the ring, to be an heirloom of his house, and marched north from Gondor by the way Elendil had come; and he forsook the South Kingdom, for he purposed to take up his father';s realm in Eriador, far from the shadow of the Black Land.~The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
This is what the Council uses to deny Arvedui's claim. The law was illegitimate, and aside from our opinions about that law, this was the law Gondor had made and Arvedui's claim was illegitimate. But there's a difference between Arvedui's claim and Aragorn's claim.

Arvedui claimed to be Isildur's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. The Council said, na can't do that because Isildur gave up his rule here (even though if we are told he didn't), but still that's what the Council had made law. Aragorn claimed to be Elendil's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. Aragorn was probably aware of Arvedui's claim being rejected, so all the more important to claim to be Elendil's heir, who indeed was the High King, and restore that Kingship. Where Isildur (again according to the Council) had relinquished his rule in Gondor and was not the High King, he gave up his rule in Gondor and went to rule Arnor.

Aragorn most likely knew about Gondor's ruling in Arvedui's claim, hence the importance of claiming to be Elendil's heir and not Isildur's. Which I think makes it look as if Aragorn's claim was in accordance to Gondor's law.

[narfforc]

There are greater things here than the petty squabbles of politics and claims. Aragorns ancestry cannot and will not be denied, only through him will there be reunification, only through him will there be the saving of the last remnents of the Dunedain, and that includes Gondor. It is not in a name, nor the imaginary lines drawn on the soil of Middle-earth that he claims leadership over the world of men, it is in his blood that he is the greatest man alive during the closing years of The Third Age, for who else of The Atani is descended from Beren and Luthien, who else can weild Anduril, who else can wear The Elessar and The Ring of Barahir, these tokens are ancient and their history predate Gondor and Arnor, they are given to the rightful heir of Beren, Earendil and Elendil, who of the race of man can claim these to his own, not for nothing is Aragorn named Estel, remember the very existance of the Free West was at stake here. Is Gandalf the Steward of Eru, when he crowns Aragorn is he handing over the stewardship of Middle-Earth to the Dominion of Men, have Men been given lordship over the world that is, only for it to come to this?............................................. ........

[davem]

I take your point. Its arguable though that if Aragorn had just walked in & claimed the High Kingship while Denethor was alive he would have split the realm & we'd have seen a repetition of the Kin-strife. Denethor could certainly have claimed that Elendil had bequeathed the realms to his sons & therefore only the Heirs of Anarion had the rightful claim to rule Gondor. This was clearly Aragorn's fear even after Denethor's death - otherwise why not proclaim himself after the battle of Pelennor Fields? I note that Faramir asked the people at the coronation if they would have Aragorn as their King. Isildur did not so much 'relinquish' rule of Gondor as acknowledge that his nephew was next in succession after Anarion.

In other words both sides had valid points to make. Denethor ruled as Steward of the decendants of Anarion, not of Elendil. For all Aragorn could claim the High Kingship he could have just been laughed out of court. The argument would have been on technicalities as far as I can see & in the world of realpolitik such technicalities are just words. Aragorn was not a direct heir & did not have a claim to the Kingship of Gondor & Denethor knew that. Aragorn was playing politics as much as Denethor. His real claim was based on his success in the war against Sauron. He was the closest thing to an 'Heir to the throne', but he wasn't actually one in a real sense. I suspect Pelendur & the Council would have rejected Arvedui's claim if he had invoked his descent from Elendil in the way they rejected his descent from Isildur.

Note, my point was based on 'legality', not moral or ethical 'right'. Legally, Aragorn's claim to the rule of Gondor is desputable, while Denethor's & his heirs is not. Hence Denethor's right to rule by inheritance ('heredity') is greater than Aragorn's.

[narfforc]

I agree in principal with most of what you say Davem , however if Aragorn had declared himself to the people of Minas Tirith I doubt they would have rejected the Weilder of The Sword that was Broken, The Dead men of Dunharrow had no doubts, even Eomer can see the advantage of Anduril fighting alongside The Sons of Eorl. The people of Gondor were on their last legs, I think they needed HOPE.

[davem]

I agree in principal with most of what you say Davem , however if Aragorn had declared himself to the people of Minas Tirith I doubt they would have rejected the Weilder of The Sword that was Broken, The Dead men of Dunharrow had no doubts, even Eomer can see the advantage of Anduril fighting alongside The Sons of Eorl. The people of Gondor were on their last legs, I think they needed HOPE.

No - & in the end they didn't reject him, but that was for a couple of 'negative' reasons as well as the positive ones you mention. First, Denethor was dead, second, Faramir had accepted Aragorn's claim. If Denethor had lived, or Faramir had rejected Aragorn's claim there would have been a split Probably not 50-50 but large enough to cause problems of a serious kind. The kin-strife was still in the minds of the people. The worst outcome imaginable, aside from a victory by Sauron would have been a victory over Sauron followed by civil war. Certainly any claim by an earlier descendant of Isildur (or of Elendil if you want) would have been rejected. Arathorn could have claimed the Kingship but I can't see any notice being taken of him.

Denethor or his heirs (I include Imrahil as well) had to either be out of the picture or to accept Aragorn's claim as well as Aragorn achieving victory in the spectacular way he did in order for him to attain the throne without splitting the realm & bringing more bloodshed.

[narfforc]

You are probably right in saying that Denethor would have caused some problems had he lived, however if Boromir had lived and remained true, he would surely have seen Aragorn in a more positive manner, I even believe he would have bent his knee before the whole world and accepted Aragorn as his King. Denethors madness would have been his downfall, in the same way Hitler imploded. Mad men cannot think, their followers soon come to hate them, ruin and destruction are the battle honours of deranged leaders. In saying all this, I believe what you say to be true, for Politicians, Leaders and Councils of Leaders are corrupted by power and have only one true agenda, that is to hold on, clinging as hard as they can to power, at all costs, spending the lives of their followers until utter ruin.

[davem]

You are probably right in saying that Denethor would have caused some problems had he lived, however if Boromir had lived and remained true, he would surely have seen Aragorn in a more positive manner, I even believe he would have bent his knee before the whole world and accepted Aragorn as his King. .

Possibly. If we look at his death scene though its open to interpretation:

Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At last slow words came. "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid." His glance strayed to his fallen enemies; twenty at least lay there. "They have gone: the Halflings: the Orcs have taken them. I think they are not dead. Orcs bound them." He paused and his eyes closed wearily. After a moment he spoke again. "Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed." 'No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. 'You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!" Boromir smiled. "Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?" said Aragorn. But Boromir did not speak again.

Unlike in the movie there is no mention of 'our people' by either Aragorn or Boromir. Boromir still claims the people of Minas Tirith as 'my people'. I just don't know. Boromir was wayward to say the least. He would have followed Aragorn to war against Sauron, maybe, but afterwards? He could have gone either way, imo, so I can't argue with you, but I'm not as certain of him as you are - maybe that's the old cynic in me :p

[narfforc]

Boromir had not really seen the greatness of the warrior/leadership of Aragorn, how would he have reacted to the scene at The Stone of Erech for instance, surely he would have seen the power of The Heritage of The Heir of Elendils son Isildur, the rights of The House of Hurin would pale into insignificent beside The man within whose veins flowed the blood of Melian and Luthien.

[Boromir88]

davem, oh I agree, if Aragorn had really just pulled an Arvedui and claimed Kingship, he may very well have been laughed out of the Court. He had to prove himself first and after Pelennor and the Black Gates, I think he gets the support he needs. Even after this, I think Aragorn understood how to play politics:
Faramir met Aragorn in the midst of those there assembled, and he knelt, and said: 'The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office.' And he held out a white rod; but Aragorn took the rod and gave it back, saying: 'That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs' as long as my line shall last. Do now thy office!'~The Steward and the King
This is Aragorn's first day as King, he really isn't well known to the people yet. It may not have been a wise mood to suddenly change a system that had been in place for quite some time. This shows Aragorn understanding realpolitik and why he was a "good King."

Boromir's situation of accepting Aragorn is a toss-up I think. Early in his writings, Tolkien plays with an idea of Aragorn and Boromir reaching Minas Tirith, and Boromir trying to kick Aragorn out of power:
Boromir and Aragorn (who notes a change in Boromir - who is keen to break off the chase and go home) reach Minas Tirith, which is besieged by Sauron except at back? Siege is briefly told from point of view of watchers on battlements. Evil has now hold of Boromir who is jealous of Aragorn. The Lord of Minas Tirith is slain (9) and they choose Aragorn. Boromir deserts and sneaks off to Saruman, to get his help in becoming Lord of Minas Tirith.~The Story Foreseen from Moria, The Treason of Isengard
Also as Faramir tells us in The Window on the West:
"It does," said Frodo. "Yet always he treated Aragorn with honor."
"I doubt it not," said Faramir. "If he were satisfied with Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in war."
Throughout the journey (despite a rocky start) Boromir trusts Aragorn and seems satisfied with his claim. When he's about to die, he tells Aragorn to save his people, whether this was because he knew he was going to die and he thought Aragorn could be the only person now to save Gondor? Who knows, but we are left with doubt as to whether, if Boromir had lived, would he have resisted Aragorn's claim, would they have become rivals? And even more interesting, if so, what about Faramir? Anyway, just some question to stir some minds. ;)

[davem]

Boromir had not really seen the greatness of the warrior/leadership of Aragorn, how would he have reacted to the scene at The Stone of Erech for instance, surely he would have seen the power of The Heritage of The Heir of Elendils son Isildur, the rights of The House of Hurin would pale into insignificent beside The man within whose veins flowed the blood of Melian and Luthien.

Assuming he would have gone on with Aragorn & not just returned to Minas Tirith.....

[narfforc]

We can also assume that Denethor would have caused trouble had he not been roasted......

[davem]

We can also assume that Denethor would have caused trouble had he not been roasted......

I think he would have - to the extent that he could. With Boromir I think his dedication to Gondor would have over-ridden his (possibly) developing loyalty to Aragorn. Even at his death Boromir's concern was with his people. He may have seen Aragorn as the means of survival of his folk, but I don't think he saw Aragorn as more important than them. I think if he had survived he would have gone straight home - which was his stated aim all along. Of course, Boromir is single-minded - he can only hold one idea in his mind at a time. His obsession with Gondor's survival is what drives him to desire the Ring. He could well have transferred that focus from the Ring to Aragorn once the Ring had passed out of his reach (& we're assuming also that he wouldn't have sought to follow Frodo - which could have brought him into conflict with Aragorn actually), but I think Gondor would always have been uppermost in his thought. If Aragorn had decided to follow the Orcs I think its more than likely he would have seen that as a betrayal of his duty to Gondor & that Boromir would have gone back to Minas Tirith alone, perhaps feeling betrayed by Aragorn.

Boromir has inherited his father's obsessive love of Gondor & I think that explains a lot about him & the choices he made, & would have made.

[The Saucepan Man]

If Aragorn had decided to follow the Orcs I think its more than likely he would have seen that as a betrayal of his duty to Gondor & that Boromir would have gone back to Minas Tirith alone, perhaps feeling betrayed by Aragorn.Boromir gave his life in an effort to save Merry and Pippin from capture. Had he survived that encounter, but nevertheless failed to prevent their capture, I suspect that he would have felt duty-bound to help rescue them. In such circusmtances, it is, I think, quite likely that his respect for Aragorn, and therefore the chances of him accepting Aragron as the returning King, would have increased.

[davem]

We won't ever know. I don't see Boromir as being all that 'nice' - certainly the movie rewrote him as a flawed hero, as opposed to the proud, but often thuggish, warrior of the book. Which is not to say he didn't have some good in him. His final act was selfless & worthy of the respect Aragorn & the others show him (respect for his prowess in battle, not for his social skills or pleasant company btw). But this is one moment. He died heroically, but his concern all along was with Gondor. His repentance came with the realisation that he was dying. If he had succeeded in avoiding death I don't see any reason that he would have changed essentially. He wouldn't have turned into a Faramir.

The idea that he would have 'betrayed' his city, his people & most importantly his father by going off on a wild goose chase after a couple of Hobbits is something that is not in character for him - much though we all might like the 'Happily ever after-ness' of it. Boromir was 'lucky' - he achieved a heroic death & had time to 'confess his sins'. As B88 has so cogently argued, though, things had not come to the 'pinch'. Boromir, I think, would have sided with his father. Denethor would have determined whether Boromir accepted or rejected Aragorn. He wouldn't have chosen Aragorn over his father, if push came to shove.

[The Saucepan Man]

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

[davem]

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

[Formendacil]

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

My mind's not made up either way- though since I lean Davem-wise in this matter, I guess I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here. Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go.

Denethor WAS Boromir's commander-in-chief. If he accepted Aragorn as rightful king- which we are given to understand he did- then Aragorn's right supercedes that of Denethor's.

Whether or not Boromir would consider Aragorn's decision as right, and if he thought it wrong and thus becoming a potential breeding ground for him rejecting Aragorn's claim, is another matter. As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim, and thus Aragorn's decision would have outranked his preference... After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Again, just playing the Devil's Advocate.

[davem]

Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go…

As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim,

But had he 'accepted him as rightful king?' I don't see that from his words. Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?

After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

[The Saucepan Man]

Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?Does it matter? The pertinent fact is that he obeyed those orders and agreed to protect the Hobbits. And, since the Hobbits were captured while under his willing protection, surely he would see it as his duty to aid in seeking to liberate them? He was a man of honour, was he not? I can't see him just abandoning his charges, particularly not after the realisation of his Ring-folly.

And yes, davem, I am talking about book Boromir. :rolleyes:

[davem]

Does it matter? The pertinent fact is that he obeyed those orders and agreed to protect the Hobbits. And, since the Hobbits were captured while under his willing protection, surely he would see it as his duty to aid in seeking to liberate them? He was a man of honour, was he not? I can't see him just abandoning his charges, particularly not after the realisation of his Ring-folly.

It matters whether he was (in his own mind) obeying a Royal Command, or an order from someone in temporary authority of the Company of the Ring. What you seem to be leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir is the Captain General of the Armies of Minas Tirith & therefore the Second in Command of the Gondorian Army. He has been on a mission to Rivendell for his CiC, & his expressed intent has always been to return to his father to report what he has discovered & take up his military command again. As he has at no point specifically accepted Aragorn's claim to the kingship, I can't see that anything has happened to alter his perceved duty. There's that line in The Sil about 'those who would uphold authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. You seem to be basing your assessment of his actions/choices on his being a free agent - which he in no way is. Merry & Pippin were not his 'charges'. He was told to find & protect them in a particular set of circumstances. Of course, if Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli had not been able to go after them he would have been put in a difficult situation. Plus, you're assuming Aragorn would not have 'commanded' him to go home anyway - which is likely. Also, if he hadn't died we don't know how strong his 'repentance' would have been. Impending mortality is both a shock to the system & focusses the mind wonderfully. He may actually have gone after Frodo instead - perhaps not to try to take the Ring again, but to protect him.

Now, if the Orcs had grabbed M&P & run off I've no doubt that he would have run after them in the heat of the moment, so its possible he could have ended up following along with Aragorn & the others, but I don't think this is what you're arguing. You seem to be saying that in the position of the others he would have made a conscious decision to go after them. I just can't see him doing that at all. His first duty was to his people & as 'a man of honour I can't see him deserting his post. M&P are just not that important militarily - & that's how Boromir thinks.

[Formendacil]

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

Continuing from my previous Devil's Advocate line of thought: Aragorn was, as soon as he started heading to Gondor, the King, if as yet uncrowned. If Boromir accepted his claim as valid (and I would read it that way, even if you would not), then he has to take Aragorn as King right now. The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

A king, if his claim is legitimate (and while Aragorn's claim was legally debatable, the Palantír issue should prove that it is correct) then he is King the INSTANT the previous king died. Now, in Aragorn's case, the last King of Gondor was Eärnur, and the last King of Arthedain was Arvedui- so it's not quite the same situation. But as soon as he revealed his lineage to Boromir in Rivendell, had Narsil reforged, and declared his intent to seek and aid Minas Tirith, he was declaring himself the rightful Heir- and with no King alive, the rightful heir IS the rightful king. To use a modern analogy, the instant Queen Elizabeth II passes away, Prince Charles will BE Charles III, King of Great Britain and Northern Island (and King of Canada, for that matter...).

[davem]

Well, Aragorn has a claim to the Kingship, but if no-one accepts him he isn't technically king. Where is it stated (or even implied) that Boromir has accepted Aragorn's kingship? He says 'Go to Minas Tirith and save my people!'. That's it. Now, of course, the guys about to croak, so he doesn't have time to go through an oath of fealty & all the rest of the rigmarole, so it could be taken as an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship. On the other hand, it could be taken as Boromir the Captain Genereal of Gondor giving an order to a subordinate. Having said that he does clearly believe that Aragorn has some chance of doing that.

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

..............

King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony...

you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you....

...if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

This discussion is intriguing, though it has strayed far from its original topic (as threads often do).

Regarding the legitimacy of Aragorn's claim to the throne, I point out again that his claim to the throne was as the Heir of Elendil, not as the Heir of Isildur. He was the only man on Middle-earth who could inherit any of Elendil's rights and properties. I would also add that, though it makes little difference, he was descended from Anarion as well as Isildur, for Arvedui had wedded Firiel, daughter of King Ondoher and a direct descendant of Anarion.
I would also add that the Council of Gondor likely was a sort of Supreme Court, where decisions might be made and then overturned. Obviously, allowing Aragorn to become king overturned the decision against Arvedui way back when. So Aragorn's kingship was not illegal in any sense. Not to say that anyone on this thread has said that, but it seems to be implied in some cases.

Of course, one may fire back that I have a vested interest in defending Aragorn's right to the throne, since he is one of my favorite characters in Tolkien. This is a genetic fallacy, but it is sadly also true. With that, I leave you.

[davem]

So Aragorn's kingship was not illegal in any sense. Not to say that anyone on this thread has said that, but it seems to be implied in some cases.


I think it would come under 'Not Proven'. Yes, the Council's decisions could be overturned, but the Arvedui decision had not yet been overturned when Boromir died (or when Denethor died, come to that).

It was Aragorn's generalship in the war which won him the Kingship - his ancestry was merely the 'icing on the cake'. If the West had won the war but he'd proved an incompetent leader I've no doubt that even if his ancestry was accepted by all & sundry he'd have fared no better than Arvedui. They wanted the victorious warrior, the wise counselor whose hands brought healing & as soon as there was evidence of some hereditary connection with the Royal House his position was assured. In other words, what got him the kingship was his prowess & leadership qualities, not his blood.

[Formendacil]

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

You are arguing Pelendur's case- a case that did not wish to see a stranger from the North sit as his king. Quite apart from the Boromir issue, where I play Devil's Advocate more than Defence Attorney, I would disagree with Pelendur's ruling. Quite possibly, Gondor would have agreed with Arvedui -and me- had he been but able to come to Gondor and put forward his case properly and in person. But Angmar threatened and such things were not possible.

That does not negate, however the fact that Isildur's Line had a legitimate claim. Isildur AND Anárion were Kings of Gondor. Possibly, it would have been most proper and correct for Gondor to have remained a Dual Monarchy. After all, there were two thrones set side by side under the Dome in Osgiliath. Although Pelendur makes a good case for the Line of Isildur having forfeited its rights as Kings of Gondor, this is not demonstrably provable from the texts we have in the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, and elsewhere. All that we can DEFINITELY see is that Isildur didn't neglect his inheritance of Arnor.

Furthermore, although Pelendur and the Council of Gondor reject Arvedui's claim, it seems clear that Tolkien does not. Since Tolkien is the creator of Middle-Earth, he ought to be it's final authority, no?

*Insert HERE Davem's counter-argument that Tolkien is enjoying his Translator's Conceit and that this is simply that Translator's opinion on the subject, and does not need to be taken as fact. To save time, I'll state that I disagree with that opinion emphatically.*

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

Whether or not Boromir accepted Aragorn as Rightful King, we cannot demonstrate clearly from the texts. My reading of it says that he did. My reading of it also says that Balrogs have no wings, that Elves have normalish ears, and that it is fundamentally Catholic. There is, on any of these topics, no clear, complete statement that makes it completely obvious to everyone what is the case- though there are certainly enough statements that from my point of view it ought to be OBVIOUS.

Finally, the majority is not always right. If Gandalf, as Head of the Istari- and thus representative of Manwë, Vicegerent of Ilúvatar, says that Aragorn's claim to the throne is Right, then it is Right- whether you want to accept it or no. And I am not arguing here that Boromir accepted it, but that it was Right for him to have accepted it- assuming he did.

And, somewhat offtopically, for the record, I hold James II (Stuart) to have been Rightful King of England, his son to have been the rightful James III, and Bonnie Prince Charlie to have been the Rightful King Charles III (which would thus have made the current Prince Charles, Charles IV). This could possibly have something to do with my Catholic upbringing: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's".

[davem]

Isildur AND Anárion were Kings of Gondor. Possibly, it would have been most proper and correct for Gondor to have remained a Dual Monarchy. After all, there were two thrones set side by side under the Dome in Osgiliath. Although Pelendur makes a good case for the Line of Isildur having forfeited its rights as Kings of Gondor, this is not demonstrably provable from the texts we have in the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, and elsewhere. All that we can DEFINITELY see is that Isildur didn't neglect his inheritance of Arnor.

As I said, 'Not Proven'. Hence, to be decided - & not by the Heir of Isildur, Gandalf, Manwe or Illuvatar, but by the Council & people of Gondor. Do you see Gandalf being able to impose Aragorn on the people of Gondor if they didn't want him? He could only become king when the people accepted him. And I have to say that if Arvedui had turned up in Gondor, with the history of Arnor behind him, I'm not sure the Gondorians would have welcomed him with open arms. The Arnorian kings were just not all that impressive a prospect. For all Pelendur's arguments I think he was just stating the simple truth in a roundabout way - the Arnorians weren't wanted. I can see that Pelendur's arguments are maybe not watertight, but I can also see a good reason for the Gondorians to want to keep the Arnorian kings away from sharp objects not to mention the Throne of Gondor....

[The Saucepan Man]

Davem, I beg to differ.

What you seem to be leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir is the Captain General of the Armies of Minas Tirith & therefore the Second in Command of the Gondorian Army. He has been on a mission to Rivendell for his CiC, & his expressed intent has always been to return to his father to report what he has discovered & take up his military command again.And what you are leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir pledged himself to the Fellowship and to its Quest. Under the malign influence of the Ring, preying on his own wish to defend his people, he broke that pledge. I believe that it would have been the realisation of his folly and his genuine repentance that would have guided his actions, had he survived the encounter at Parth Galen. And I believe that he would therefore have sought to honour his pledge. Of course, none of them were bound to remain with the Fellowship, and Boromir had already indicated his intention to part with the company if they were not willing to accompany him to Minas Tirith.


Boromir held out long against this choice; but when it became plain that Frodo would follow Aragorn, wherever he went, he gave in. 'It is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need,' he said, 'and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship.'However, that intention was stated before the events of Parth Galen, and at a time while he was still under the influence of the Ring. The sentence that I have emboldened is important, I think. Despite the Ring's influence, this is the "untainted" Boromir speaking. He would not desert his friends at need.

He had already shown compassion for the Hobbits, when the Fellowship was beset by cruel weather on Caradhras.


But I wanted rest and sleep, Bilbo, Frodo answered with an effort, when he felt himself shaken, and he came back painfully to wakefulness. Boromir had lifted him off the ground out of a nest of snow.
'This will be the death of the halflings, Gandalf,' said Boromir. 'It is useless to sit here until the snow goes over our heads. We must do something to save ourselves.'

'Have hope!' said Boromir. 'I am weary, but I still have some strength left, and Aragorn too. We will bear the little folk. The others no doubt will make shift to tread the path behind us. Come, Master Peregrin! I will begin with you.'Add to that the fact that he had willingly undertaken to protect Merry and Pippin at Parth Galen.


'We shall all be scattered and lost,' groaned Aragorn. 'Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least, even if you cannot find Frodo. Come back to this spot, if you find him, or any traces of him. I shall return soon.'Whether he accepted Aragorn's command because he recognised his right as King, because he accepted him as de facto leader of the Fellowship or because he himself felt it was the right thing to do matters not. The fact is that he undertook to guard the two young Hobbits and they were lost while under his protection.

Had he survived, both his compassion and his sense of duty (to the Fellowship and more particularly to Merry and Pippin), now free of the Ring's influence, would, I believe him to have led him to accept and follow Aragorn's decision to follow after them. Indeed, I believe that it is a course which he himself would have advocated.

You are right that Boromir and Faramir are not the same person. But the difference between them was in wisdom and judgment, not compassion and sense of duty.

Thinking further on this, there are some interesting parallels here between Faramir and Pippin. Boromir protected Faramir as a child and he is protective towards Pippin both on Caradhras and at Parth Galen. Pippin is later, in Minas Tirith, associated closely with Faramir, being the one who effectively saves his life and later naming his own son after him. I am not saying that Boromir saw his brother in Pippin, but there is certainly a connection of sorts between these three characters, and this reinforces my belief concerning Boromir’s likely choice, had he survived Parth Galen.

[Rhod the Red]

"Whether he accepted Aragorn's command because he recognised his right as King, because he accepted him as de facto leader of the Fellowship or because he himself felt it was the right thing to do matters not. The fact is that he undertook to guard the two young Hobbits and they were lost while under his protection."

Hear, hear!

[tom bombariffic]

I agree.

Also, forgive me if this is a little obvious, but...

Oricinally posted by Formendacil:
Finally, the majority is not always right. If Gandalf, as Head of the Istari- and thus representative of Manwë, Vicegerent of Ilúvatar, says that Aragorn's claim to the throne is Right, then it is Right- whether you want to accept it or no. And I am not arguing here that Boromir accepted it, but that it was Right for him to have accepted it- assuming he did

None of the fellowship, or anyone in a position of influence of Gondor, would have realised that Gandalf was a representative of Manwe. I understand you may have been arguing that we as readers should accept it as right, given our knowledge, but I'm not so sure...in the situation, Gandalf can not wield the authority of Valinor, because authority depends on others' belief in it. If his identity is hidden, his authority vanishes with it. Thus his divine right to appoint a king is revoked, in my opinion.

bombariffic

[Rhod the Red]

The Istari didn't have authority either. They were prohibitted by the Valar from persuing it, in case they sought to dominate the inhabitants of Middle-earth.

[Lalwendë]

I don't see any point where Boromir acknowledges Aragorn as rightful King of Gondor on that journey from Rivendell to Amon Hen. On the contrary, Boromir's actions and speech whenever he is with Aragorn seem quite strained and conflicting at times. They argue and Boromir is on more than one occasion silenced by Aragorn who he does accept, on the surface at least, as leader of this fellowship, but not as his King.

If Boromir is following anyone, then he is following Frodo. He makes a point of asking what the Ringbearer thinks about one choice, and there is this very revealing passage:

Boromir held out long against this choice; but when it became plain that Frodo would follow Aragorn, wherever he went, he gave in. 'It is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need,' he said, 'and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship.'

Here Boromir also reveals his feelings towards the rest of the fellowship. He says he is their friend and would not desert them for that reason, but then says something about how he perceives their friendship: alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship. He starts off speaking in a high minded tone of honour but ends on a rather sad note. Boromir seems to feel he has no real friends in this Fellowship. Does he truly have no friends? Or are his own goals very much on his mind, driving his actions and speech? That goal, at this point, is to stay with Frodo and to endeavour to persuade Frodo to come to Minas Tirith. Boromir's efforts of persuasion have been subtle, but have been growing ever stronger, mere questioning of their path has passed from moaning and into doomsaying by the time they leave the river. Of course his efforts will culminate in his desperate measures at Amon Hen, when he takes advantage of a wekness in Aragorn's leadership, his indecision.

I think Aragorn knows or at least suspects what Boromir is up to; his efforts at persuasion are growing increasingly less subtle. And I also think that this is causing the relationship between the two men to come under increasing strain.

"Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed."

This is also revealing. Boromir, even in death, issues an order. He expects that now Frodo and the Ring have gone, that Aragorn ought to go right away to Minas Tirith. He also calls those people my people. Not our people, let alone, your people, but my people. He has faith in Aragorn at this point, but as King?

Tolkien of course reveals to the reader early on that Aragorn is this rightful King by blood. He also shows us Aragorn's failings and how much he has to learn on his way to the throne e.g. respect for lesser Kings. Likewise he spends most of three books gradually revealing the proofs that Aragorn needs to claim this Kingship, whether symbolic (Palantiri, healing hands etc.) or in his skills as a leader. We have the benefit of knowing Aragorn's destiny, the people he meets, however, do not. In a very real sense he earns his Kingship through merit, and that makes him a better King.

[The 1,000 Reader]

To stay on topic, I always thought Gandalf's quote was simple to understand. When Gandalf was sent back as Gandalf the White, he was apparently granted more power and authority. Since Eru had little to do with Middle-Earth at that time, and since Manwe wasn't doing too much either, Gandalf, in his sent back state, was the "caretaker" of Middle-Earth at the time. In fact, he was the steward of the steward (Manwe) and Eru was the "king."

[Rhod the Red]

"he was apparently granted more power and authority" What makes you say that?

"Gandalf, in his sent back state, was the "caretaker" of Middle-Earth at the time." No he wasn't, the Istari aren't meant to govern Middle-earth, but influence their inhabbitants to resist Sauron.

"he was the steward of the steward" I think you're taking his statement literally, Gandalf was merely speaking in the context of having responsibility for others, to Denethor.

[tom bombariffic]

That's a very good point, 1,000 reader. Of course the only thing was that he was a steward without anyone knowing it, which meant that other big cheeses like Denethor did not recognise him as such.

And yet that is the role that he plays anyway, undercover as it were. Which I think is what Rhod is getting at, saying that they should influence, not govern. But taking everything into account, even if he's not supposed to govern, he effectively does. As I said he does it subtlely, but at various points in the book he does straight out order people around in the defence against Sauron - who could argue that he didn't govern the defence of Minas Tirith?

In the case of great people like Aragorn, Gandalf's help tends to be more of a shove in the right direction, but at points of emergency he is not afraid to take control. In this way he is a steward, or caretaker, whose policy (and duty) is to guide rather than dictate, but who sometimes is forced to take a more governing role out of necessity.

bombariffic

[edit: underlining is good. It clarifies things.]

[narfforc]

I think what The 1,000th Reader alludes to is written in Letters 156 and 181, where Tolkien states that Gandalf returned with enhanced power. Tolkien also wrote this revealing passage:

So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes that was my name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remained similar in personality and idiosyncracy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater.
The authority was given to subdue Saruman.

In The Lord of the Rings Companion Note 758 has this interesting comment:

Gandalf's rejoiner.....carries a great many implications in a few words. He is reminding Denethor that he [Gandalf] is a representative of a higher authority than Denethor is (i.e., The Valar and/or Iluvatar). He is reproving Denethor: 'You are answerable to a higher authority.' He is implying that Gondor is part of his own stewardship too, and finally he is pointing out that Gondor is only part of a larger battle.
[Romenna Meeting Report, p.2].

In Letter 286 Tolkien writes: There are no 'Gods', properly so-called, in the mythological background in my stories. Their place is taken by persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the govenment of the world.

In Letter 325 Tolkien writes: The angelic immortals (incarnate only at their will), the Valar or regents under God.........

The meaning of the word regent I take to be thus:
Regent: Ruler of a kingdom during the absence of its Monarch.

I therefore believe that Gandalf/Olorin is a steward of Eru.

[The Saucepan Man]

He is reminding Denethor that he [Gandalf] is a representative of a higher authority than Denethor is (i.e., The Valar and/or Iluvatar).This suggests that Denethor was aware of the nature of Gandalf's mision (and that of the other Istari) as emissaries of the Valar (and, ultimately, Eru). Is there anything else to suggest that this may have been the case? I was rather under the impression that only a select few (essentially, the White Council and, possibly, Sauron) were aware of this.

[narfforc]

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

[Rhod the Red]

"there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission." Well, we don't know if Denethor 'suspected' who the Istari were, only Elrond, Cirdian and I think Galadriel knew who they were.

[The Saucepan Man]

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.I'm not so sure that this follows. Not in a fantasy world where Orcs, Ents, Dwarves and the like exist. The Istari deliberately disguised themselves as old men and claimed to be Wizards. That would be sufficient explanation for most. Dragons and Ents lived for thousands of years, but no one surely suspected them of being emissaries of the Valar.

Then again, Denethor was a canny sort and may well have put two and two together. It's possible, but its speculative. I was after some textual or authorial indication.

[Rombout]

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

I also think Denethor wasn't stupid but it was 250 years ago when Saruman had been given the keys of orthanc and he a lot of other problems then thinking "what are the wizards?"
None knew who they were except the three keepers of the elven-rings. ;)
litle question did Sauron knew who they istari were? :cool:

[narfforc]

The Rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world stands, those are my care. As for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I am also a steward. Did you not know?

1. Is Gandalf suprised that Denethor does'nt know?

2. Why ask this question if Gandalf thought Denethor knew?

3a. Gandalf calls himself a steward.

3b. Steward One who manage's anothers property.

3c. Who's property is that then?

The Palantiri showed scenes far away in time and space. A person of strong will could learn to control the palantir and with it see where and whenever he wished.

'Pride and despair!' he cried. Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. Who knows the full extent of what Denethor saw in his palantir, it is not impossible for him to have found out the truth of The Istari.

[Rhod the Red]

"3a. Gandalf calls himself a steward."

In one instance he refered to himself as one. This once, not other times. Other times as wizard. Usually from a third-person perspective though, when talking about 'wizards' and 'The Wise'.

"where and whenever he wished." In the sense that there was no limit? We have no knowledge if there is or isn't a limit. That's conjecture to assert perhaps Denethor somehow saw across the Western seas to Valinor and watched the Istari talk about taking on their role in Middle-earth.

[narfforc]

He need not look that far, however, there again it would not be beyond the power of a palantir to see that far. It is irrelevent when or how many times Gandalf call himself steward, he does so, therefore he clearly sees himself as one, that is the important information he is imparting on you. If he says he is a steward, then he is. The question I asked is why does he ask Denethor if he knew or not, and who's property was he managing

[Boromir88]

After Gandalf died and was sent back by Eru, he was granted more power and authority. For Eru knew now that only Gandalf would be the one to stay true to his task and someone needed to deal with Saruman. Tolkien clearly points this out in Letter 156:
That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. [...]He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.
The Valar sent the Istari as a plan in order to help the free people's combat Sauron. After the other Istari failed and Gandalf was the only one who would stay true to the task, the Authority (Eru) got involved and made Gandalf more capable of being able to complete the task.

So, what kind of "authority" did the Istari have, if any? What exactly was their task? Who perhaps knew about them? I think these quotes will answer it to the best that we can:
When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Greatm the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to see to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.~Appendix B: The Third Age
So, the people of Middle-earth see these old men, and they see them as "messengers" sent to contest Sauron. I think this quote also backs up the authority that the Istari could command. Now they can't dominate over anyone, and they can't force anything. But, it was their mission to unite those who would combat Sauron, which implies they would have an authoritative sort of role. They themselves would not be able to lead directly against Sauron, or challenge him. However, if they wanted to complete their task they would have to take up an authoritative role, in order to unite the Free Peoples against Sauron.

Let's look at Theoden who accepts Gandalf as his "new counselor" after Grima, I would say a "counselor" is a title that holds certain authorities:
"Nonetheless I miss now both my counsellors, the old and the new. But in this need we have no better choice than to go on, as Gandalf said, to Helm's Deep, whether Erkenbrand be there or no..."~Helm's Deep
And this is how Gandalf often acted, as a guide, counselor, advisor. He couldn't dominate and force anyone against their will, as that would go against his "task." But he could instruct and guide, and "Counselors" have authoritative power. Eventhough if they aren't the one's to make the decisions, they can influence and in Theoden's case he takes Gandalf's advice. With Denethor, he doesn't, and Gandalf is forbidden to force Denethor against his will.

For sure, Cirdan certainly knew who Gandalf really was:
For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.
"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy, but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle the hearts in a world that grows chill..."~Appendix B: The Third Age
Also, notice Cirdan called Gandalf "master," displaying more authority that the Istari had.

I agree with narfforc, whether Gandalf referred to himself as steward once or thousands of times. He called himself a steward, and even further explained what his job was. And those who knew who the Istari were accepted their authority (as shown with Cirdan). As well as in Theoden's case who takes Gandalf as his counselor (even though if Theoden probably didn't know of Gandalf coming over from the West as messengers).

And with Faramir:
"Gandalf!" said Frodo. "I thought it was he. Gandalf the Grey, dearest of counsellors. Leader of our Company. He was lost in Moria."
"Mithrandir was lost!" said Faramir. "An evil fate seems to have pursued the fellowship. It is hard indeed to believe that one of so great wisdom and of power - for many wonderful things he did among us - could perish and so much lore be taken from the world..."~The Window on the West
We seem to have several people around Middle-earth who have accepted Gandalf. Whether if it was like Cirdan who actually knew who he was and why he was there, or Theoden, Faramir, Aragorn, and many others who accepted his counsel and leadership, but didn't know.

The other istari abandoned their tasks, or turned away. But, in Gandalf's case he was well known in Middle-earth, and known by many names, and known for many deeds. Which, I think shows he commanded a certain authority when he was around as those willing saw him as a friend and took his advice.

I hope this isn't too hard to follow, I jumped around a lot, I think and just jumbled everything. :rolleyes:

[davem]

'Hope on then!' laughed Denethor. 'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. ... So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me. 'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Clearly Denethor recognises that Gandalf has both power & authority. He probably also acknowledges that he is a 'steward'. The point is they wanted different things. Denethor wanted things to remain as they had always been during his lifetime. Gandalf wanted to reinstate the kingship of Gondor under Aragorn. Denethor refused to acknowledge Aragorn's right to rule: 'I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

What he's saying is that he doesn't care if Aragorn is the Heir of Isildur, - he will not accept Aragorn's rule. So when Gandalf tells him ''To me it would not seem that a Steward who faithfully surrenders his charge is diminished in love or in honour,' it is obvious they are at cross purposes. Gandalf's position is that Denethor's duty is to surrender his rule because the true king has returned, Denethor's is that the true king has not returned, as the 'true' king would be the heir of Anarion, not of Isildur. Denethor could not accept Aragorn as king so he could not surrender his office to him because that would (in his mind) be a betrayal of his duty, which is to rule Gondor till the 'true' king returns.

[Boromir88]

Some other things that I noticed is, at least at first Saruman probably held more "authority" than Gandalf did...

"The Council of the Wise" being also called the "White Council," because Saruman was the leader. I don't think it's fully known who makes up this Council, but we know Saruman, Gandalf, and Galadriel are definitely in it, for Galadriel wanted to place Gandalf as the "leader." So, this brings to the point that based on this quote:
It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him.
Many understood why the Istari were there. Perhaps they did not know their identity, or knew if they were Maiar. But, they did understand that these men came from the West and were "messengers." And they were sent to Middle-earth for a purpose, or the "Wise" of Middle-earth, would not put them in such high positions and make them leaders:
TA 2851: The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him...

TA 2941: ...The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River.
These two dates show the authority that Saruman possesses when it comes to the Council. So, whether or not people knew who exactly these Istari were. I think it was understood that they were sent to help combat Sauron, and which is why they are placed into positions of leadership.

We also get an interesting note on the two blue wizards (who are called Morinehtar and Romestamo in this instance):
The ’other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador.But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir -up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarrayinbg the forces of the East...who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West.~HoME VIII: The Peoples of Middle-earth, Last Writings (The Blue Wizards)
It seems to be understood that the Istari were sent to aid in fighting Sauron, whether or not it was understood who exactly these "Old men" were.

This suggests that Denethor was aware of the nature of Gandalf's mision (and that of the other Istari) as emissaries of the Valar (and, ultimately, Eru). Is there anything else to suggest that this may have been the case? I was rather under the impression that only a select few (essentially, the White Council and, possibly, Sauron) were aware of this.~Sauce
I don't think it was a secret as to where these Istari came from (generally understood as they were not from Middle-earth), or their "mission," as I have shown. Now whether a majority knew it or not, I don't know, but Gandalf was not shy about professing being emissaries from the "higher authorities":
"I am a servant of the secret fire..."~The Bridge of Khazad-dum
And Gandalf also gives a detailed account of his meeting with Saruman to the Council of Elrond which includes exactly what Saruman felt like their mission was. Plus there's the instance we are given with Denethor, as narfforc shows.

[The Saucepan Man]

I don't think it was a secret as to where these Istari came from (generally understood as they were not from Middle-earth), or their "mission," as I have shown. Now whether a majority knew it or not, I don't know, but Gandalf was not shy about professing being emissaries from the "higher authorities" ...But how many people knew exactly what there was to the West and that the Istari came from there? When I first read LotR, I had no conception of the Valar or Valinor or Eru or the like and, being a reader, I was privy to the key moments of the time. The vast majority of people in Middle-earth had no such privilege ;) .

The Dunedain and Gondorians would have some conception, though lore and habitual rites (Farmair and his men nodding to the West). Frodo resorts to calling on Elbereth, but he was a learned Hobbit and I doubt even he (at the beginning) had much conception of who (or what) she was. Your average Hobbit wouldn't have a clue, and knowledge would be pretty patchy elsewhere in Middle-earth too, amongst the race of Men at least. Most Elves would know of the West since either they or their close relatives had been there. But that might not be so true of the Avari. Dwarves would have some knowledge too but, as with Gondorians, that would likely be from ancient law and habitual rites.

So knowledge that there was a place called Valinor and that there were Valar would surely be sketchy at best among the vast majority of folk in Middle-earth. Add to that the fact that few would trouble themselves to think who Gandalf and the other Istari actually might be (again, I knew nothing of Istari when I first read the book). As far as they were concerned, his status as a Wizard was probably sufficient.

The quote that you give from Appendix talks of the tales that were told after the event, when legends would have grown up surrounding the events that took place during the War of the Ring. But it tells us nothing about the state of knowledge at the time.

Gandalf's words on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum were witnessed only by the Fellowship, and most would probably not have known what exactly they meant. They have, after all, sparked heated debates as to their meaning here on the Downs. :D

The only people that we can say for sure knew of the Istari, from whence they came and the nature of their mission were the Council of the Wise, which probaly (in addition to Galadriel and the Istari themselves) included Elrond, Cirdan, Celeborn and, possibly, Thranduil. Others, such as Aragorn, who lived in or frequented Rivendell would have probably been aware and narfforc has a fair point when he says that others, such as Denethor and (possibly) Faramir, would, through their knowledge of lore or otherwise, have been able to make an educated guess. But the majority (including those such as Thedoen and Eomer, I would say) would have been "in the dark".

[Raynor]

I too doubt that the vast majority of Men knew who Gandalf really was - they believed he was an elf:
Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, "the Elf of the Wand". For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.
...
It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspa) used by me since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff." Gandalf was not an Elf, but would be by Men associated with them, since his alliance and friendship wit Elves was well-known. Since the name is attributed to "the North" in general, Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name but one made up of elements not derived from Elvish tongues.

[narfforc]

He was called Gandalf by the Men of the North, but that means all other men were not fooled into thinking him of Elven-kind, for he had many names and none of the others hinted at him being an elf. The oldest elf in Middle-earth was probably Cirdan, who was on the westward journey to Aman. Very few men went to the Grey Havens, most of mankinds dealings (in the Third Age) if any were with The Fair Folk of Rivendell and Lothlorien, where else in Tolkiens writings is there an elf that looks like one of the Istari, maybe it is only the simple men of the north who mistake Gandalf's magic as Elvish, in the same way that Pippin asks whether their cloaks are magic and the elven reply was: I do not know what you mean by that. I cannot see Aragorn and The Dunedain who frequented Rivendell being unaware of the real Gandalf. Twice Gandalf reveals in front of others that he had returned from death, how many others had done so, this is no ordinary being.