Learning Quenya - Discussion Thread

[the guy who be short]

Aiya, neri ar nissi Atanion! Aiya, vendi ar hini Endoron! Aiya, ingolmor i lambeon Quendion!
Hail, men and women of the race of Men! Hail, maidens and children of Middle-Earth! Hail, loremasters of the tongue of the Elves!

Thus, in rather shaky and basic Quenya (the last sentence is liable to be flawed), I welcome you to the Learning Quenya Discussion Thread!

This thread is solely for those of us learning Quenya (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11988). If you are not learning Quenya with us, please do not post in this thread (unless you're a Mod, in which case, do whatever you want! :p). Please also remember that we are all students at this stage, so do not ask us, publicly or privately, in this thread or any other, to act as a translation service for you, as we probably won't be able to!

Right, now that I've scared everybody else away, here's what the thread is for!

As you know, we are learning Quenya in our pairs, meaning we're more able to help one another out. However, something else that many people have requested is a place for us to share our experience of learning Quenya with others. And here it is, now that our number isn't entirely laughable.

This thread will be used for discussion of how we find learning Quenya, talking about things we find difficult, techniques we use to learn in pairs, etc. etc. It is meant to encourage us along the way, a larger group to share ideas with than just your Study Buddy.

The thread will not be used to discuss things like the appearance of Quenya in Tolkien's works, or the accuracy of the course, or whether standardisation is a good idea, or anything of that sort. Other threads can be created for this. It is simply another tool for the whole learning experience. :)

Existing Pairs:

Kath and TGWBS
dancing spawn of ungoliant and Lhunardawen
Encaitare (Alone)
Kitanna and Orominuialwen
Arwen Imladris and Esgallhugwen
CaptainofDespair and durelin
Joy (Alone)

[the guy who be short]

I'll start us off, then.

To everybody starting off, don't be disheartened by the length or complexity of lesson one - the following lessons are much shorter and far less complex.

It was a bit of a challenge comprehending aspiration and voicing and all the rest of it. Once you get past it (and not all of it is essential) the rest will seem easy as pie. I had trouble not aspirating my "t"s to begin with.

Something both Kath and I had trouble with is pronouncing "h"s. Fortunately, we classed all the different pronunciations and there were only about 5.

Another trick which I use is to copy and paste all the summaries of the lessons. When I'm not sure of something, I can quickly reference it by finding the piece of paper instead of having to start up the computer.

Finally, a useful source for Quenya vocabulary is, again, Ardalambion (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm). I don't really trust other sites, and would advise people to stick to Ardalambion.

[Lhunardawen]

Something both Kath and I had trouble with is pronouncing "h"s. My, that was the worst lesson for me the first time around, too! I only got a measly one point in the exercises. Hopefully I'll do better as spawn and I start this week. We'll keep you posted.

[the guy who be short]

Lhuna: I still haven't memorised all the "h"s. Whenever I find one I'm not sure of, I look back at exercise and find out how to pronounce it. The underlying theory behind this is that eventually they will stick in my mind. :rolleyes:

How Kath and I learn:
A step by step guide
1) Both read the lesson beforehand.
2) Meet at pre-appointed time on Instant Messenger.
3) Discuss the lesson. What we found easy, what we found hard and whatnot.
4) Help one another and try to explain things to one another if one of us finds something hard.
5) Do the exercises together. One of us writes the answer to an exercise, the other verifies that they think it's correct (or, if not, corrects it).
6) Check the answers and celebrate.
7) Arrange next meeting.
8) If we catch one another online between meetings, we talk to one another, interspercing Quenya into the conversation. This means we can keep up to date with vocab.

It works really well, actually. We've got to lesson 4 already. :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You guys have got Encai and I beat. Due to me being rather busy right now, we've agreed to snail's pace for the next two weeks or so. We've both got the introduction and first five lessons downloaded and presumably started. Once I'm no longer insane enough to offer up my time modding (kidding.. it's worth it... game starts in five minutes), I'll have more time to sit in front of the computer doing other things.

[Kath]

2) Meet at pre-appointed time on Instant Messenger.

Or, as is the usual way, try to meet at a pre-appointed time and then find that you have something else to do or your parents have chosen that particular moment to begin a 3 hour phone call and have to grovel later.

[the guy who be short]

I've just realised I'm the only male who's even signed up to learn Quenya (I think). Why's that, we wonders?

[Kath]

We thinks precious that it's because he has a strange fondness for languages (and is far too good at them in our opinion). He beats us at the exercises all the time - and we feel it is only a matter of time before he laughs at us for our inability to learn plurals!

[the guy who be short]

Hehe, Kath, you're doing fine at plurals!

But, really, is there any reason for the gender imbalance? Is Quenya more appealing to women? Are Elves too nancy for men? ;) Is it just a coincidence?

Concerning poetry competitions: I've had a look, and you need to get up to lesson 5 to write anything decent (when lesson 5 is complete, students should understand present tense verbs, nouns and adjectives, which is enough for a basic poem). If not enough people get that far by September, the first poetry competition could be rescheduled for October.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

The gender imbalance reminds me of my old Spanish class (fat lot of help that was... I'm going to miserably bomb my college proficieny test in about two weeks). There were about twenty of us... three guys.

And has anyone else noticed how torturously long the Introduction is?

[the guy who be short]

The intro isn't vital reading, Fea. I skimmed through it. The only thing of real importance was that some Quenya had been standardised (ie, "k"s turned to "c"s) because Tolkien changed his mind about spelling lots of times throughout his life. The rest is really babble. ;)

Interestingly, in my German class, there were more boys than girls. German is usually thought of as quite a masculine language though.

French, usually thought of as feminine... I think there were a few more girls than boys.

I see Quenya as a feminine language. Maybe that's it.

Than again, maybe I'm pulling this all out of my donkey. :p

Summary of TGWBS's babble: Don't bother reading the whole intro properly Fea.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I read the first third of it between Monday night and yesteday afternoon, and then I gave up. I hadn't really planned on finishing it any how, since my attention span is notoriously bad, and it's very long-winded and infused with big words. Also, I'll be away from home probably tonight, definately tomorrow (though no worries, my players, I'll get in a death post on WW6 before I leave), and I'll be quite busy Friday. :D I love when summer gets busy. Keeps me on my toes. Don't worry though, Encai, I'll get Lesson 1 read in between goofing off and shopping (hey, I didn't say what I was gonna be doing was important ;)).

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I just got back from a few days' vacation and Lhuna and I start our collaboration tomorrow. Since the Finnish language was evidently Tolkien's foremost inspiration... ...I'm having a breeze with the pronaunciation. :D It's just the length of the lesson that is killing me (or is it that horrible headache I feel coming?). Anyway, at this point I feel optimistic about the course. Can't wait until we can begin writing poems!

[Kath]

Fea I would suggest you ignore the introduction unless you really want to read it. All it really does is give you a lot of conflicting information about the history behind Quenya and then tells you none of it matters because the course is going to do it one way and one way only.

spawn - just wait til you get to plurals! :rolleyes:

[Encaitare]

Skipping the introduction sounds like a fantastic idea to me... it downloaded to a length of 21 pages on my word processor, and I'm still only on page 8. I think I'll skim through the rest and the get straight on to Lesson One.

[the guy who be short]

Good idea, Enca.

Wise position, Kath.

Plurals aren't as hard as Kath makes out. She just has to cope with school at the same time, making remembering a little harder for her.

Well, you heard spawn. Anybody having trouble, go pester her! :p Oh, and spawn - as I said, lesson 1 is ridiculously long (it's like the intro all over again :eek: ). After that, they're a lot shorter. :D

[Lhunardawen]

spawn, I knew there was a reason why I wanted you as my buddy. ;) I think this is going to be oh-so-much-easier for you. Then you can help me out when I'm stuck. :p

[the guy who be short]

By the way, for those of you using IM, Kath and I devised a shorthand. As English keyboards don't have accented letters unless you memorise the ALT + Number combinations, we've replaced them with double letters. e.g. á becomes aa. This works because Quenya never has two of the same vowels in a row.

It's very handy and speeds things up. :D Which is only really an issue using IM.

When you're not using IM, please use full letters. It's much prettier. ;) There a list of the ALT + Number combinations on the FAQ page.

Also, about the diaresis you sometime find on words like Eärendil, Kath and I ignore them altogether as they are only for pronunciation purposes for us poor English-speaking sods. I leave them off when writing in Quenya as they have no real purpose presuming one knows their pronunciation.

[Lúmen Rómello]

I've just realised I'm the only male who's even signed up to learn Quenya (I think). Why's that, we wonders?
Pardon me? What am I, chopped liver? :smokin:

Anyway, so far as I know, I don't have a study buddy, but I'm going to try to start up again on my own. If I ever get up the gumption to print off the exercises (again - they're so freakin' long!), I'll start up in earnest. Right now, they're just on my compy at home, so I'm stuck with only looking at them when I'm home.

But, I'm pysched about going at it again! I mean, I'm old enough to remember the good old days when we still had the Language forum! Anything to get that back is a good thing in my book.

-LR.

[the guy who be short]

Sorry Lúmen! I thought you might be male, which is why I added "I think" in brackets.

About study buddies - I looked at your stats, and it's quite hard to match somebody up with you because you've completed the entire course already, so it will be mucheasier for you to pick it up again. Also, you could only use PMs, which are quite restricted. However, if you want to get a buddy sorted out quickly, just PM anybody you'd like to go with and ask them (though if you do pair up, let me know!). I suppose you'd be more able to help people out, seeing as you'd be able to pick up the course more easily.

About the language forums - I don't think we'll see a return, even if more people display interest in joining. However, eventually we may have several threads running (other than the poetry competition ones).

Oh, and welcome (back?) to the Downs!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Now, now, you are causing me pressure. ;) But of course I'll help if I can and if you want me to. Though I have to confess that I'm a bit lost with the h's, too. I haven't done the "h's" exercise yet. The "accents" one was much more comfortable!

Here's something for those who are not sure, how to pronaunce the vowels. Click. (http://tolklang.quettar.org/pronmid/pronguide.html) There are audio files for some words and separate vowels. As far as I'm concerned, they should be correct and accurate. Only the last sentence at the bottom sounds somewhat weird (incorrect?). Anyway, so far as I know, I don't have a study buddy, but I'm going to try to start up again on my own. Aww, but you have us all spurring you on here!

[Lúmen Rómello]

Actually, I would be willing to use emails, but unfortunately I won't have IM access till I return to school this fall. I've really only got access to the Net at work, which is kinda stinktastic.

Oh, well. Such is life.

-LR.

[the guy who be short]

Aiya, nissi ar vendi... ar Lúmen.
Hail, women and maidens... and Lúmen. :p

Two quick notes. One is that Kath and I have got lesson 5 done (Woo!) so we're now at the stage where we can actually compose sentences. More or less a post to say "Go us!" than anything else. :p

Also, due to excessive amounts of vocab to learn, I've just created a document of all the vocabulary and printed it off to use at my pleasure. Together with the page of lesson summaries, I can more or less revise properly when not at a computer, which is very handy.

[Lhunardawen]

Good idea, tgwbs. I wonder if we'll get to memorize all those words.

Anyways, have you noticed that most of us are joining Werewolf VII? Lhuna - spawn ;), tgwbs - Kath, Fea - Enca, Kitanna - Oromin...will we get any studying done at all? Maybe we could require at least one Quenya word in each post throughout the game. :D

[Kath]

Good plan Lhuna! Just randomly or as part of an actual sentence?

Oh and whoever said they were having trouble with H's I have a quick version that might help.

If the 'h' is at the front of the word it is said like the 'h' at the front of 'high'.

If it's in the middle and before 't' it is said like the sound at the end of 'loch'.

If it's in the middle and after 'i' or 'e' it is said like the german word 'ich'.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My problem, Kath, is that much like the pronunciation difference between the names "Aaron" and "Erin", my dialect doesn't allow for differences in "h"s as you name them.

[Kath]

Ok well for the after i or e one there is another option but it's a little more confusing. Think of the word you and then say it out loud. Now do it again but try to put an air breath with an h sound in front of it stop the word after the first sound you make. That is the sound you are aiming for.

[Lhunardawen]

Good plan Lhuna! Just randomly or as part of an actual sentence? Of course the word would have to be relevant. ;)

Like: "(insert name here), if you're not a werewolf, then we're all a bunch of roccor" or something like that.

(That was not exactly the best example, was it? :D)

But if everyone agrees to the rule, how can we make sure that we all follow it?

[the guy who be short]

Fea ~ an h at the front of the word would be pronounced normally, unless you have a really weird accent (yes, I know you have no accent, but still...)

The 'h' sound called the ach-Laut or the 'h' in 'loch' is pronounced as a hard 'ch.' Imagine Eomer saying it in his Scottish accent. :p It's also common in German.

The 'h' sound in 'ich' called the ich-Laut doesn't occur in English. It's hard to explain, it took my German teacher quite a while to explain it to us, but it's sort of... more hissy than the other 'ch' sound. *Finishes lamely*

I learnt all this but never memorised where to use each one. :rolleyes:

[Kath]

But if everyone agrees to the rule, how can we make sure that we all follow it?

Well just say that each post has to have one Quenyan (?) word in it. It could be anything just as long as it fits in a sentence. I don't know how you could enforce it though except make threatening noises at anyone who didn't :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Och aye, one might end up hissing ich-Laut at ye, if ye aren't careful. ;)

Now... *reviews personal accent/dialect*

We drop the "t"s at the end of most words... they're replaced with an almost throaty "h". Actually, that's true for most consonants unless we in the area make a conscious attempt not to (except for Geoff, because he insists that the proper pronunciation is alu-MIN-ium... you can guess where he hails from originally). Many vowels are dropped because they, quite frankly, are unnecessary. :)

An example of someone speaking locally for me would be.

"Hey, are you going out tonight? What movie are you guys seeing? Oh, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is hilarious."

becoming

"Hey, you go-n ow t'nigh? Wha movie are yeh guys see-n? Oh, Charlie 'n' the Chok-li Fact-ry is hilarious."

As you can see, locally, we have little reverance for letters that don't necessarily need direct pronunciation. The theory, I think, is that it's the thought that counts more than the "t"s or "g"s. It looks harsh written phonetically, but spoken, it's a fairly swift-spoken but soft rendition of the language. No harsh [consonant] edges to worry about.

And it's fantastic for us locals (a little tough to follow if you're not used to quick English.. poor exchange students...) but it makes it tough for us to learn foreign languages where every letter has a use. :(

And those crazy "h"s... they're more of a breath than they are a sound. *out-breath*'lo is the rough sound of "hello". Hence my troubles.

Oh, and just for good measure... me? An accent? Never... 's you lo-h with yer pretentious ways of sayin' things tha's go-h the res-h o' the worl-h in 'n uproar. You know... it's a darned good thing that spelling of English is [almost] universal or we'd be in trouble. In conclusion... did my post have a point? I'm not so sure. I think my point was to poke fun at hissing, to explain why I can't tell the difference between consonants, and to garner pity for the poor gal trapped in a world where an "h" is an out-going breath.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I've thought of an all-important question: what is the nationality of the guy who wrote this tutorial? Because I'm having trouble with pronunciation and when I read the words he gives (examples being "for" and box" to help with ó) it occurs to me that I pronounce the "o"s in those words differently. But then it occured to me that to try and explain the differences would make zilch sense to an English English speaker.

I mean... for me, "box" rhymes with "rocks". But since I'm sure it does also for all of you, it's a bad example. The best way of stating the difference is that "box" sounds like "bah-ks" whereas "for" sounds like "foe-er". And these are two very different sounds. :( Ah versus oh. So... is ó ah or oh? And then there's those darned follow up sentences. I say the words he gives aloud several times, finally think I've got it right, and the next sentence proceeds to tell me that under no circumstances should I be saying it like that.

[Kath]

So basically Fea, you're screwed unless you can get an audio version of how these thigs are supposed to be said.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You got that right. Nevertheless, on I plod.

[Kath]

Didn't someone on one of the thread actually have an audio version? It might have been on this but it might have been on the original sign-up thread.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

So basically Fea, you're screwed unless you can get an audio version of how these thigs are supposed to be said. But we can't let you to be "screwed", now can we? From Ardalambion:

"H is pronounced [x] (German ach-Laut) before t, unless this combination ht is preceded by one of the vowels e or i, in which case h is sounded like German ich-Laut. Otherwise, h may be pronounced like English h; the digraphs hy and hw however represent ich-Laut and unvoiced w (like American English wh), respectively. The combinations hl and hr originally represented unvoiced l, r, but by the Third Age, these sounds had come to be pronounced like normal l and r. "

And some audio samples for the assiduous student. :) Examples: thúle (archaic), silme, formen, halla, aha, Mahtan, tehta, hyarmen, hwesta (http://tolklang.quettar.org/pronmid/sounds/quenya-vless-frics.wav)

ps. Lhuna and I are moving on to the exercises of lesson 2. We're catching up!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Thanks Spawn. :)

Since our meet-up time got screwed up last week (she had to work and I had to play ;)) Encai and I are doubling up today on lessons one and two. So we're catching up also.

[the guy who be short]

I'm quite wary of external sources 'n' courses, as I think the Ardalambion course is best researched. Feel free to do so yourself, though.

Now, I have found a recording of Tolkien reciting the Namarie poem (http://www.salon.com/audio/2000/10/05/tolkien_elvish/index.html). You can save it to your computer, it is free, and the best imaginable source of information of pronunciation! Enjoy. :)

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Thanks for the link, TGWBS! I'm quite wary of external sources 'n' courses, as I think the Ardalambion course is best researched. Feel free to do so yourself, though. Yep, it's good to be rather sceptical due to the huge amout of junk that floats around. I edited my last post replacing the H-instructions with a quote from Ardalambion. I think the fellow in the audio sample pronounces the words right, though.

[vanwalossien]

I just made a post looking for a study mate, hope this will make me finish the course, which I left halfway through last time, due to having an insane French teacher, who made me think I had enough with three languages at school without a fourth at my spare time *sigh*
I've thought of an all-important question: what is the nationality of the guy who wrote this tutorial?
The Ardalambion course is made by Helge Fauskanger, the linguistical mastermind of the Norwegian Tolkien Union. It's a long time since I studied Quenya now, but I remember that I didn't have too much trouble with the pronounciation, probably because of this. And of course, as Helge says, Quenya is inspired by Finnish, a language that pronounces most letters the same way as Norwegian.

[Lhunardawen]

I suggested it, but I did not live up to it myself. :o

I realized it would be quite weird to insert a single Quenya word into a myriad of English words. That would make the lone Quenya word so...lonely.

But I did try to help all of us Werewolf VII participants, didn't I? Playing the game alone is so nerve-wracking, then here goes me trying to make things much more complicated.

Oh well.

(End of Lhunacy. :D :rolleyes: )

[the guy who be short]

Aiya vendi (ar Lúmen).

August is approaching, and the first poetry competition was set to begin on the 1st of September. However, the minimal requirement for being able to actually write in sentences or phrases is Lesson Five. As far as I know, only Kath and I have completed this.

There also only seem to be six of us - Kath, Enca, Fea, Lhuna, spawn and I - who are actively participating on this thread, and, presumably, actively learning Quenya. It would be foolish to start the poetry competition before at least most of us six have reached lesson five.

Long story short - do you all, and the four other people explicitly mentioned, feel that you will have got to lesson five by the first of september, with enough spare time to do some writing, or not? I'm widely anticipating a "no," so the competition could be set back a month to the First October

Thoughts? Comments? I'm interested to see how far other groups have got, and whether the four quieter people have started yet.

By the way - personal info here - I've just started writing my first Quenya poem. :D It will doubtless be full of horrendous grammatical errors which will later have to be rectified, but it's still really cool writing in Quenya.

[Kitanna]

Oro and I made it through lesson one, but Oro has told me of RL problems. So it looks like we will not be going on to lesson 2 very quickly. Which makes me sad, but RL problems are RL problems.

[Encaitare]

Fea and I have both read lessons 1 and 2, but due to some RL conflicts we had to cut our discussion short. We'll be resuming this Monday to finish the two up, and then assuming we work steadily through August, we should be ready by September. :)

[Orominuialwen]

I'm sorry, but Kitanna's right. I may have to go out of town at any time to attend to the funeral of a family member, but I have no definite idea of when that will be, or how long I'll be gone, except that it's likely I'll have to go sometime in the next few days. Once I get back, we'll be able to get on with the lessons.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

By the way - personal info here - I've just started writing my first Quenya poem. That's really cool, congratulations! :)

Lhuna and I have successfylly finished lesson 3. I'd believe that we are done with lesson 5 before September.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

It's true... life got really busy. While I might be done with Lesson 5 by September, having September 1st as our poetry competition start is absolutely irrevocably impossible for me. I'll be moving into college that day and then trapped in four days freshman orientation, and after that, I'll be adjusting to classes. So I have little access to the internet at best for the first week of September.

[the guy who be short]

Firstly, Feanor - September 1st would be the date that poetry starts to be submitted, presumably you would have started writing it in late August. So the question is really, could you get to lesson 5 by late August AND have time to write (what you feel is good) poetry?

Orominuialwen - I'm sorry to hear that, and it's entirely understandable of course. I don't expect people to think of Quenya as a priority, even in much less important situations. It's a casual club. ;)

Lhuna and dancing spawn look in the best position to be ready by September, but I feel that the poetry contest would end up with 4 contenders if we kept the date.

So...

The first poetry contest will be delayed to October the First. I'd been toying with this idea before as well; if the contests are to be bimonthly (once every two months, not twice a month... stupid word has two meanings) this would avoid a contest starting on the 1st of January, when people will most likely be on holiday etc.

This means everybody should have time to get up to lesson 5, and most of us would hopefully get past it, allowing for more complex language and better quality poetry.

By the way, four lines into my first poem, I realised that we don't learn how to use pronouns until about lesson 12. Which means until then, our poetry will be full of proper nouns. Oh well. :D

For those of you interested in creating rhymes in your poems, the Ardalambion wordlists (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm) feature a "reverse wordlist" to help find rhymes. Unfortunately, Quenya is so heavily inflected (I stole that phrase from the course, yes) that it isn't of huge use. The other wordlists can of course be used to help in poetry.

Finally, CaptainofDespair and durelin have just joined our ranks.

[/Rambling]

[Lhunardawen]

You ended the rambling, tgwbs, but you did not even start it! :D

[the guy who be short]

Pretty much all I say is rambling. :D

Nilpaurion Felagund and vanwalossiel are the newest pair, by the way. Fourteen of us now...

What do people think about the competition judging? I thought that maybe we should make it a little more democratic, now that there are a larger number of us. Perhaps each Student should have one vote for a poem, and the poet with most votes wins? I think that would be a little better, maybe, and the winner of the last competition merely counts up the votes and does official, boring stuff like that?

[Durelin]

Just about done with Lesson Three. w00t. Took us several days to get started (and we have yet to do any *learning* today), but I've even been taking notes! :eek:

That's more than I do in any of my classes at school...and more than CaptainofDespair will ever do. :p

Wordlists are useful...of course I've started my own wordlist in my boredom and innocent enthusiasm.

And, democracy sounds good, even with its flaws. As does October.

Rambling is simply a lesser form of ranting, and is a constituent of it. Ranting is a more direct form of rambling, but can easily still be as lengthy and, though it is painful to say, can be as boring.

;)

Note: Ranting can also be disjointed to add to its poignancy...

EDIT: We have cookies?!

[CaptainofDespair]

Just about done with Lesson Three. w00t. Took us several days to get started (and we have yet to do any *learning* today), but I've even been taking notes! :eek:

That's more than I do in any of my classes at school...and more than CaptainofDespair will ever do. :p


Wait...are you implying I've taken notes? How dare you! :p

Yesh, yesh...we have to do learning today. I suppose tonight on the phone, after my mid-evening nap.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

This is for those who have reached lesson 4, well, and everyone who intend to reach lesson 4.

The grammar instructions aren't absolute concerning the use of is/are and if I understood correctly, we can choose wether to use the English word order or to place the verb is/are to the end of a sentence. For example, we can say "the book is red" in two different ways and both of them are equally fine.

1) I parma ná carnë = The book is red
2) I parma carnë ná = The book red is

Ardalambion says that it's just a matter of taste where to place the verb. So, which word order do you prefer?

There's also a possibility to leave the copula (is/are) right out and just say "I parma carnë" meaning "The book [is] red". Again, which way do you use?

I for one think that it's easier to understand Quenya when you use the copula so you don't have to bother your brain too much thinking wether an adjective is being an attribute or a predicative. The English word order is undoubtedly quite natural for many of us. However, I think "I parma carnë ná" sounds more poetic than "I parma ná carnë". What do you think?

[the guy who be short]

Being an Englishman with English as my primary language (I actually learnt it second, but I think in it now, so it's most important to me) I find it easiest to stick with the English order,

The same question arises in Lesson 5 with verbs - the sentence could be

I Eldar mápea i Nauco.
The Elves seize the Dwarf.
I Eldar i Nauco mápea.
The Elves the Dwarf seize.
I Nauco i Eldar mápea.
The Dwarf the Elves seize.

In sentences, I prefer the English method of object-verb-subject, but in poetry, it's very handy, because you can shift things around to match rhyming patterns (which I'm very fond of). When writing poetry, I use whatever order I like.

As for leaving ná off completely... I don't think I could cope with that. Too much brain strain, like you said.

[Durelin]

I actually prefer the verb at the end of the sentence. But only be cause I'm used to translating Latin...

But, as TGWBS said, it's useful to be able to put it in whatever order you'd like... It's sad that you can't do that with English...shows you what kind of language we have, doesn't it? :p

[the guy who be short]

But, as TGWBS said, it's useful to be able to put it in whatever order you'd like... It's sad that you can't do that with English...shows you what kind of language we have, doesn't it?Technically, you can do whatever you like in poetry. :D As long as it's still intelligible, anything goes.

We have cookies?!Yes.

Actually, durelin, learning every single day? Good luck to you! :p Kath and I are going at a rate of about one lesson per week, which we think works quite well.

Does anybody here (who has got to lesson three) like to put the adjective after the noun?

I parma carne - The book red
Instead of
I carne parma - The red book.

Again, it's incredibly handy that you can use both, because it makes it that much easier to rhyme. I prefer the English method in sentences though.

[Encaitare]

Ye Olde Short One, I personally prefer the way which mirrors the English form, because it's what I am used to. But, like you said, in poetry anything goes!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Does anybody here (who has got to lesson three) like to put the adjective after the noun?

I parma carne - The book red
Instead of
I carne parma - The red book.

Again, I think that the first version is more poetic and I think I even know why. In old Finnish poems and song lyrics the word order is similar to "I parma carnë" - noun comes before an adjective. I think I'm going to use both ways in my writings even if I don't make them rhyme (so it won't be necessary).

So, when can we have cookies? :p

[Lhunardawen]

I suppose in answering the exercises we can use the 'English' format for greater ease. But, as everyone else already said, we can play around with the order when writing Quenya poetry. I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun? Like

I carnë parma (of Westmarch :D ) - you just have to know it is a red book

as opposed to

I parma carnë - the book (is) red...it is 'more important' for you to know the color of the book than the book instead

or something like that in a smaller scale?

EDIT: How do we avail of these cookies, tgwbs? ;)

[the guy who be short]

Again, I think that the first version is more poetic and I think I even know why. In old Finnish poems and song lyrics the word order is similar to "I parma carnë" - noun comes before an adjective.Technically, this can be done in English too. To quote the Lay of Leithian:
‘twas sewn with golden lilies fairAnd other such instances.

I think I'll simply use whichever seems more aesthetically pleasing at the time. That's what Quenya is all about, after all.

I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun?I'd disagree with that actually. I think it was just a feature of the language, rather than having any effect on emphasis; the red book and the book red being interchangable. Looking at the examples given in the exercise, I don't think there's any reason to think that having the adjective after the noun emphasises it, though it may look liek that to native English speakers.

We have cookies?!
So, when can we have cookies?
How do we avail of these cookies, tgwbs?Well, to be honest, the reference to cookies was false advertising. The idea is, people see my siggy and think "Ooh! Cookies! I like cookies..." *click* Then they come to Quenya, and it's such a lovely idea they forget about the cookies. :D

[Durelin]

Actually, durelin, learning every single day? Good luck to you!
Well, not every day. But most. It's just like my Latin classes...everyday. (Well, during the school year...) I just enjoy it, so if I find myself at all bored (which is pretty often, since I have no life), then I study Quenya. The thrill of learning a language is just wonderful. Believe me, I really feel that way. No, really.

Well, to be honest, the reference to cookies was false advertising. The idea is, people see my siggy and think "Ooh! Cookies! I like cookies..." *click*
I almost clicked a few days ago, forgetting I had already joined...

:p

[vanwalossien]

Oh, I can make cookies. Anyone who shows up at my work on tuesday to keep me company is welcome to lembas (or chocolate cookies, mmmm, chocolate.. :D). Silly job, giving me no time for more important things, like learning Quenya...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Many regrets, but I've got to bow out of learning Quenya for awhile. A few weeks at the least. Why did nobody think to tell you that the month before college is busy?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I suppose putting the adjective after the noun tends to emphasize the adjective rather than the noun?

I'd disagree with that actually. I think it was just a feature of the language, rather than having any effect on emphasis; the red book and the book red being interchangable. Looking at the examples given in the exercise, I don't think there's any reason to think that having the adjective after the noun emphasises it, though it may look liek that to native English speakers.

Actually, Lhuna has a point there. This following extract is from lesson 4.

In Quenya, it is however also permissible to let the adjective follow the noun. For instance, Markirya has anar púrëa for "a bleared sun", literally "(a) sun bleared", and in LR:47 we have mallë téra, literally "road straight", for "a straight road" (cf. LR:43). Perhaps this word order is used if you want to emphasize the adjective: the context in LR:47 indicates that this is a straight road as opposed to a bent one. However, letting the adjective follow the noun may be the normal word order in the case of an adjectival "title" that is used in conjunction with a proper name: In UT:305 cf. 317 we have Elendil Voronda for "Elendil the Faithful"

We are now moving to lesson 5 with Lhuna! :cool:

[the guy who be short]

The "perhaps" seems to show a bit of uncertainty on Helge's part. I'd say it's open to interpretation.

Feanor, do you think you'll be coming back to us afterwards? Enca, are you sure you're fine learning by yourself?

Kath has also gone for two weeks (holiday) so we've temporarily paused too.

Is anybody else having Quenya hallucinations in real life? I just read The Island of Doctor Moreau and one of my first thoughts was "Moreau! Aha! 'Tis a linguistic pun, Mor meaning dark and Eau meaning water in French and... Quenya." :rolleyes:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm going to try, but since I'm not positive I'll have time, I won't promise. I'd like to get into the swing of college before I add extras. If that makes sense.

[Encaitare]

Enca, are you sure you're fine learning by yourself?

I'm doing quite well... I've nearly finished Lesson 5. :)

I know that before I said I liked the word order which mirrors English, but now that I actually try it, I find the noun+adjective form more appealing. Maybe it's because of my love of Spanish, maybe when I speak a language which is not English I automatically want to swap it around like in Spanish. I don't know. I'm probably going to be highly erratic with my order until I decide which I like better. :D

[Lhunardawen]

tgwbs: :p

Immaturity aside, what lesson were you and Kath in before she left?

[the guy who be short]

Faya: I understand completely. Kath and I intend to go a lot slower once college starts up in September. If you can find time though, great!

Enca: Well... if you're sure. Good luck! Also:I'm probably going to be highly erratic with my order until I decide which I like better.Why choose? :D

Lhunatic: Lesson 7. Odd, I swear I said that before, but I can't find it anywhere. That's the future/aorist [different present] tenses lesson.

To be completely honest, I keep peaking ahead to find out how to say certain things for my poem, so I know quite a few extra bits which, strictly speaking, I shouldn't yet. I'm also thinking of looking at a few lessons myself and then doing them again with Kath afterwards (which would only increase my surety in them).

Oddly enough, the only thing Kath and I are finding difficult is memorising vocabulary. There just seems to be so much of it...

[Encaitare]

I finished lesson 8 last night, and what I am finding the hardest is remembering how to form the different tenses. The vocabulary is not too hard for me because I remember a lot of the words from Quenya poems like Markirya.

I started lesson 9, but the whole thing with the negatives and the infinitive started to confuse me. I think I'll spend some time letting it all sink in so I can actually remember the tenses and such.

[Lhunardawen]

tgwbs, so what you (I mean we) have to be doing to compose a Quenya poem is to think it up first in English, then translate it to Quenya? We are ignorant, yess, preciouss. We've never created poemsess in an un-native language before.

[the guy who be short]

Congratulations Enca for getting further than me so very quickly. :eek: I can't yet use the first person, so:
TGWBS laita Encaitare. :)

Lhunatic: I'm trying to put a very specific peace of prose into poetic form, so yes, I think in English first and then translate. However, as I'm going for the rhyming effect, once I do one line, I have to search for something in context to rhyme with it.

Incidentally, the reverse Quenya wordlist isn't as up to date (is that all one word...?) as the normal wordlists, so I'd advise carefully checking any words you find there with another wordlist before you use it.

*Wanders off*

[Durelin]

Congrats, Enca!

The good Captain and I have gotten behind. Namely because I have a summer project I need to get done by Monday, which I of course waited to start until...well, a few days ago.

Just for reference, I'm assuming the poems are going to be 'free verse', since going too far on structure when we're learning a new language would just be whacky. About how long of a poem do you think we should go for? I think we can do better than a Haiku (not that I have anything against them), but I'm not thinking 50 lines or anything...

Oddly enough, the only thing Kath and I are finding difficult is memorising vocabulary. There just seems to be so much of it...
This might sound very grammar school, but vocab cards really do help. :p

-Dury the bored

[Joy]

I would love to join ;) I used to study Quenya all the time, but due to health and family concerns, I had to stop. It has been over a year since I have even been to this site.

[Encaitare]

Thanks, TGWBS and Durelin. :) I've progressed pretty quickly only because I really have nothing to do in the wee hours of the morn. ;)

And welcome back, Joy!

[the guy who be short]

Just for reference, I'm assuming the poems are going to be 'free verse', since going too far on structure when we're learning a new language would just be whacky. About how long of a poem do you think we should go for? I think we can do better than a Haiku (not that I have anything against them), but I'm not thinking 50 lines or anything..."Poetry competition" means just that - any poetry will be accepted. It's not up to me to set limits to your creativity, is it now? Personally, I think a Haiku would actually be quite difficult - you have to squeeze so much in! Free verse will be accepted, of course, as will anything else (I'm aiming for one rhyming poem [started] and one metric poem, but I'm often told I'm nuts. ;)).
As for length, again, whatever you want. Even two lines can be startlingly beautiful. There'll be no limits either way. My poem is becoming epic length startlingly quickly though (not a very good thing if I aim to keep people interested!).

Joy: Firstly, welcome back! I'm a fellow returner, I came back a few months ago. It's truly great getting to know all the new people (most of whom have more posts than me, actually, but I shall call them new nonetheless...).
If you're interested in finding a Quenya study buddy, please check this thread. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11988) Alternatively, if you prefer to work by yourself, just let me know and you can start straight away. :)

I've progressed pretty quickly only because I really have nothing to do in the wee hours of the morn.I wish I could think of something witty to say but, as I can't, I'll just settle for a "When do you sleep, lass!?!"

[Joy]

I need to work by myself, due to health. I just don't have time to get on like I used to and coorosponde.

I am used to self study, esp in Languages. I have learned 4 on my own (Greek, Hebrew, Old English - and part of French and German).

I will check out these threads more :) Thanks!!!

And welcome back yourself. I do remember you from last year.

[Encaitare]

"When do you sleep, lass!?!"

Since it's the summer... about from 2:30 - 11:30 AM. I get plenty of sleep, the cycle is just skewed by a few hours. :D

I am used to self study, esp in Languages. I have learned 4 on my own (Greek, Hebrew, Old English - and part of French and German).

Wow. Kudos to you!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have just written my very first poem in Quenya!

Ok, that was the good news. The bad news is that it's probably full of mistakes and I have to learn a few more lessons before I can really finish it. I wrote it first in English but I noticed pretty quickly that I have to make it much more simple so it corresponds with my Q. skills even a little better. It was hard to write without past tense, prepositions (except "nu") personal pronouns and whatnot. But I'm getting there! ;)

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Maybe a little off topic but couldn't resist. I just saw this in the best signature thread: "Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?"
It took me a while to understand that it wasn't Finnish and there wasn't anything funny in it. Do you see any similarities in it with this sentence: Simani julma niin eltaantuva. It's Finnish and means "my mead so rancid". :D Anyway, beautiful language this Quenya, is it not?

[Encaitare]

It's Finnish and means "my mead so rancid".

Maybe that's why Galadriel wanted someone to refill her cup. :D

[Joy]

Do you see any similarities in it with this sentence: Simani julma niin eltaantuva. It's Finnish and means "my mead so rancid". :D Anyway, beautiful language this Quenya, is it not?

Now, that is too cool!!! Is it pronounced in any way like Quenya?

[Encaitare]

I'm working on translating a poem that I wrote in English, and here are some of the resources I've been using.

Quenya Wordlists (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm) -- from Ardalambion. Both English-to-Quenya and Quenya-to-English wordlists can be downloaded.

New Words (http://www.elvish.org/elm/newwords.html) -- If you can't find an attested form of the word you're looking for, the next best thing to go with is a "reconstructed" form.

And now, a grammar question: for my poem, I want to say "much longer". There are different forms of "much" for whether it is an adjective or an adverb. In my case, what would it be? Adjective, I think.

EDIT: Never mind, I figured it out... and I was wrong. It's an adverb. :rolleyes:

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Is it pronounced in any way like Quenya? You can pronounce it exactly like Quenya but the stress is always on the first syllable of a word. I just noticed that I wrote it wrong yesterday. The correct translation is: my cruel mead so rancid. Anyway, maybe that's enough about that subject. ;)

Enca, I couldn't even dream about saying "much longer" in Quenya yet. :)

[the guy who be short]

Joy: Welcome to the club. :) I hope this thread services all your Quenyan needs... Oh, and it would please me better if you didn't remember me. I seem to recall being a bit of a prat back then, really...

Ladies and gentlemen, I have just written my very first poem in Quenya!Congratulations! :D
The bad news is that it's probably full of mistakes and I have to learn a few more lessons before I can really finish it. I wrote it first in English but I noticed pretty quickly that I have to make it much more simple so it corresponds with my Q. skills even a little better. It was hard to write without past tense, prepositions (except "nu") personal pronouns and whatnot. But I'm getting there!Not to worry, you can always go back afterwards and fiddle with it. If you really need to use something like a pronoun, you can get a basic understanding from the English-Quenya wordlist.
Yes, the language is beautiful, and I must roll off my chair and writhe on the floor in laughter for a few seconds at that Finnish sentence. Maybe he intended it to be like that... And yeah, explains the whole cup thing. ;)

I just had a thought: What type of poetry do you think Quenya is suited to? Before I started, I imagined I'd be writing about summer and trees and blossoming flowers, and Quenya would probably work very well with that. At the moment, though, I'm writing an "epic" poem on the Fall of the Noldor - and the Quenya really seems to fit the epic mood of the poem.

Enca, I couldn't even dream about saying "much longer" in Quenya yet.Me neither!

New Words -- If you can't find an attested form of the word you're looking for, the next best thing to go with is a "reconstructed" form.Careful, Enca. Both the Barrow Wight and I would like to stick to "pure" Tolkien Quenya, though of course a little extrapolation is required. Nilp also declared an interest in creating new words from stems. This is different.
Obviously, we don't want Grelvish on BD, but I'm also wary of creating new words from know "Qenya" or Primitive Elvish roots. The site you gave a link to states This list cannot be taken as a wordlist of Quenya words devised by J.R.R. Tolkien himself, and people therefore should not take and freely use them as if they were 'real'. It is very possible that they are non-sense or completely wrong, but until we have Tolkien's own words, we must, if we want to use Quenya, help ourselves and such words may be used as our temporary solution.That said, a lot of the words seem to be derived logically enough for use by mixing two or more old words / suffixs etc. together. I'd support using these. I'm against creating new words from Primitive Elvish stems - we can't have any idea whether Tolkien would still use them in the same way, or if he'd make them irregular, or if he wouldn't want them used at all. I'd advise against using these.

[Encaitare]

As you said, the words on that site seem to be logically derived, based on known words. In my opinion, they are to be used as a last resort, when no other related word or synonym can be found.

With this in mind, I have a couple of questions.

1. What are your opinions on combining words to make compound words? The poem I'm translating has a nautical sort of theme, and one word I had to scrounge around in order to translate was 'figurehead'. I settled for lango-nís = 'prow-woman'.

2. Is it okay to 'logically derive' a noun from a verb? Again, as a last resort. I need a word for 'sail' (the noun), but I can only find the verb: wili-. Could I somehow follow the pattern linda- (verb, sing) --> lindë (noun, song)? Willë would not be an option because it's the past tense form of the noun, but maybe there's some way, wilë, perhaps, though it doesn't look as nice... Or, I could try another compound word, rúmëa-cirya (moves-ship) or something similar. :confused:

[the guy who be short]

What are your opinions on combining words to make compound words? The poem I'm translating has a nautical sort of theme, and one word I had to scrounge around in order to translate was 'figurehead'. I settled for lango-nís = 'prow-woman'.I think it works, as long as it makes sense. I don't do it at the moment as I'm not exactly sure how to do so - whether endings change somehow or something weird like that, which is almost bound to happen with Quenya. "Prow" + "woman" makes middlish sense to me, you could get away with using it and people would probably realise what you mean. An extreme that wouldn't make sense would be "cup" + "board" for "cupboard". Yes, it was a stupid example, but you get what I mean (or I hope you do). Sometimes it won't work translating individual components.

Is it okay to 'logically derive' a noun from a verb? Again, as a last resort. I need a word for 'sail' (the noun), but I can only find the verb: wili-. Could I somehow follow the pattern linda- (verb, sing) --> lindë (noun, song)? Willë would not be an option because it's the past tense form of the noun, but maybe there's some way, wilë, perhaps, though it doesn't look as nice... Or, I could try another compound word, rúmëa-cirya (moves-ship) or something similar.Again, as long as it makes sense. "Sing" into "Song" makes sense to me. "Sail (vb)" into "sail (n)" doesn't. The verb and noun are connected in English, but in other languages a sail could be called a "fluttercloth" or anything else - we don't know what. A song is almost always going to be derived from the verb "to sing" though. Also, "moves-ship" makes no sense to me. ;) Nor would "wind-cloth" or "shipsheet" - you can't really look at either and think "that's a sail" and it's also unlikely that they would be Quenya words for sail. This is just English-speaking people trying to get Quenya to do what they want.

The problem with trying to translate a poem from English into Quenya is that you have to change it - Quenya doesn't have a very extensive vocabulary. You'd probably end up with something reasonably different. That's why I think of what I want to say in English, then try it in Quenya. If it doesn't work, I think of something else or look for synonyms. It's easier that way - you can make sense and say what you want.

Tell me if I'm not making sense. The above looks extremely unelegant, and I wish I could express it with less unseemly words...

By the way, Enca, is your name in Quenya?

[Encaitare]

No, you're making sense. With the 'moves-ship' thing, I had some Spanish words in mind, like limpiaparabrisas, which refers to windshield wipers, literally meaning "cleans windshield". As you said, Quenya probably has different rules. I'll knock out the word 'sail' and think of something different, then.

And yes, my name is indeed Quenya. :)

[the guy who be short]

What does it mean? :D I know a few Downers names' translations by heart. Wilwarin means Butterfly, Formendacil means North-Victor. I think I tried to investigate your name and failed, though.

[Encaitare]

It's a translation of my real name, Jamie; it means "one who supplants or replaces". I found it at Quenya Lapseparma (http://www.elvish.org/elm/names.html).

[the guy who be short]

Something really annoying happened.

I was going through my poem when I noticed the name "Morgoth" and remembered it was Sindarin! So I looked it up, and the Quenya form is Moringotto. Which presents a problem because now I need to alter the lines to rhyme. Grrr. Moral: Always check proper names.

Yes. Ahem.

Anyway, my poem is now 30 odd lines long and hasn't even reached Alqualonde (which is what it's meant to be about!) yet. Brace yourselves for an epic. :p It's not that bad actually - most of the lines are about two or three words long. I might cut it short a little and stop just before Alqualonde though.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

my poem is now 30 odd lines long and hasn't even reached Alqualonde (which is what it's meant to be about!) yet :eek: And I felt proud of the seven lines of my poem... :o Well, congratulations.

Moringotto sounds strange. It reminds me of spaghetti or some other Italian food (not sure why).

Anyway, now I can write more flexible since we just finished lesson 6 with Lhuna and I can use past tense. Hooray.

[the guy who be short]

And I felt proud of the seven lines of my poem... Well, congratulations.Hehe, thanks, but like I said, my lines are ridiculously short. Two of my verses, for example, have only ten words in each - each verse being four lines long! So, nothing remarkable.

Anyway, now I can write more flexible since we just finished lesson 6 with Lhuna and I can use past tense. Hooray.Am I the only one who has to look ahead to find out how to say things in Quenya? I've already peaked at parts of lessons as far ahead as 16 just to make little phrases work...

Oh, this may be a little premature, but I think it's fair to say that Shelob and Alcarillo will almost certainly be forming a new pair. :)

[Alcarillo]

Aye, Shelob and I have indeed formed a pair.

TGWBS, where did you find the form Moringotto? I have a few Sindarin names I need Quenyarized for a poem: Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, Nan Elmoth, and Ëol. Possibly Idril Celebrindal, too, but I recall a Quenya form of her name somewhere.

EDIT: Peoples of Middle-Earth gives both Itarillë and Itarildë as forms of Idril. I like the former better.

And kudos to anybody who can guess the theme of my poem.

[the guy who be short]

Alcarillo - The Quenya wordlists gave me the form Moringotto. There are links to them in the first post, I think. If not, they're not far under it. :)

Kath is back! Huzzah! We'll be resuming learning on Monday.

[Kath]

Yes hello all and greetings to those who joined up in my absence. It's nice to see some new people! Quick question, when is this poetry competition occurring as it seems that most people are well through their poems and I haven't even started!

[the guy who be short]

Worry not Kath - the scheduled date is 10th October for the last entries. :) You have more than a month.

[Alcarillo]

Well, my poem is 40 lines now (yipee!), and I've been using the Quenya translations of "The White Lady" and "The Dark Elf" for Aredhel and Ëol.

I have, however, encountered a problem. I need to say: The warriors found him. I know it would begin with I ohtari, but the verb is confusing me. There is a plural subject, so The warriors found would be I ohtari hirner. But how do I add the -s (meaning him, or her, or it) to this? Would it become hirneres? Should I leave off the plural ending of the verb (even if the subject is not a pronoun) and just add -s, to get hirnes? Or is this explained in a later lesson? Could I just use hirners, even if it looks weird in Quenya?

[the guy who be short]

We-ell...

Quenya consonants can be a little annoying. There's a list of allowed Quenya consonant clusters here (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quenya.htm#Heading6), and it does include rs.

However, it also says: Normally there are no final clusters either; words end either in one of the single consonants t, s, n, l, r or in a vowelSo that means some meddling is required.

I'm not really sure. I've only got to lesson 8 though... perhaps somebody further along knows what to do?

EDIT: You could always use I ohtari se hirner. I believe that would emphasise the word him somewhat, but that's the best I can think of at the moment.

[the guy who be short]

Sorry to double post but...

I ohtari se hirnerThis isn't definite Tolkien, it's derived from other pronouns. I wouldn't use it unless you can't find anything else.

I think hirneres might work. Possibly hirneras - a being the most common vowel?

If all else fails, you could email the course writer. :)

[Dimcollowen]

I really wish I could speak Quenya....I once read somewher that there was this group of Tolkien fans where all the members could speak it....every single one! It seemed very cool but it was alittle scary because you could only join if you could already speak Quenya...and you had to be fluent. So needless to say I couldn't join.... :rolleyes:

[Encaitare]

I really wish I could speak Quenya....

So learn. It's fun. :)

(I want to write a college essay about how I'm teaching it to myself but my mom refuses to let me... bummer.)

[the guy who be short]

I know we all know how stress works, but it's hard to think about it when reading texts if you're used to English (or other languages for that matter) stress systems. When posting poems, I'm going to emphsise the stressed vowel by underlining it so it's easier to read. It won't be compulsary but it would be handy. :)

[the guy who be short]

Competition deadline getting closer (and mine isn't finished! Eek!) so I thought I'd sort a few things out:

The last possible date for entering a poem is 10th October.

Poems are not compulsory from students.

As far as I know, only Alcarillo, Kath, spawn, Enca and I will be submitting poems, but everybody will be encouraged to vote on them.

That is all...

[Encaitare]

The last possible date for entering a poem is 10th October.

Oh, good. I thought it was October first, and I was wondering whether I'd have any time to finish.

[Thinlómien]

I'd like to start learning quenya here, and I've even got a permission from TGWBS :) So does anyone need a pair? I have studied the lessons 1-6 by myself about a year ago, so with some revision I can continue everywhere between lessons one and six. (Of course I can also study by myself, but it's always funnier to do the excersises with someone...)

[the guy who be short]

Permission...? You don't need permission. You don't even need approval. Lemme know, and you're in. In fact, even if you don't let me know, I tend to pick up that you're learning Quenya and add you to the list of Quenyans.

In light of the rather lacklustre response to the last poetry contest, I think we should maybe tweak the frequency. People do have lives to live, I realise. Once every six months sound good to everybody? Bad? Perfect compromise?

[Encaitare]

Six months is a little too long, I think. Maybe every three or four months?

[Encaitare]

Hey, you crazy Quenya kids, you. Let's get this going again, huh? Or else I'm switching to Klingon. ;)

[Lhunardawen]

Hey, you crazy Quenya kids, you. Let's get this going again, huh? Or else I'm switching to Klingon. ;)Ouch. Ouch, ouch, ouch. :o

Did everyone else stop, uh, take an indefinite break as well?

[Thinlómien]

I intended to start but didn't, then I studied in the Christmas Holiday but I have been now having a break of some three weeks and so...

I think I need a pair so that I can keep studying...

[the guy who be short]

Kath and I sorta stumbled, unfortunately, due to my exams. And then didn't start up again.

What say you Kath? Shall we force me to star up again?

[Lhunardawen]

dancing spawn and I agreed to an indefinite break since we're both quite busy with school and stuff...not sure when we'll start again, though.

[Encaitare]

I was lucky enough to find a RL Quenya partner, so we should hopefully be starting up again in a week or two once our schedules clear up a bit. *is excited*

[Alcarnarmo]

Hello there
i'm French and I feel I'll need a hand learning Quenya. I'm afraid to say that Ardalambion's equivalent in French is rather a pity so I'm settling myself to learning Quenya on my own, unless some charitable soul takes pity on me and comes to my help!
Good luck to you all in this incredible task.
Alcarnarmo