The Ring of Saruman?

[narfforc]

Has anyone given thought to the power or potency of this ring? For those who do not know of this ring, please allow me to elaborate. In LotR(The Council of Elrond)
Gandalf tells of his meeting with the traitor Saruman:

"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger".

If this ring was of no importance, why did Tolkien/Gandalf refer to it, yet it is not given a second thought at the council. Can it be that Saruman in envy of Sauron is trying to appear as a copy of him? I do not think so, for a few paragraphs on this is said:

"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours"

In this statement is Saruman advertising himself as a cheap jewelsmith? No, he is telling us he has made a Ring. Can he have done this thing?, almost definitely. Why?, Had he not studied The Lore of the Rings a long time, had he learned nothing at all? Was he not Curumo of the people of Aule, a Maia in the service of that Vala, as was Sauron in his beginning?. Where and how exactly did Sauron gain his knowledge?. If he was taught, then others also could be, if he invented them himself, others could also come to that knowledge by the power that is within them. How many of the Smiths of Ost-in-Edhil survived, Did Saruman the White in his fair face ever talk to them, did they give him knowledge thinking him to be amongst the good and wise?. Maybe The Ring of Saruman was only a lesser ring, but I think it had power, it was used to enhance his voice, and that power stayed with him even after his staff was broken.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Seems to me that the only thing we can do about this ring is to speculate about it, as Tolkien does not give us much to go on. That having been said....

If Saruman was trying to emulate the craft of Sauron then we can assume that his Ring was like the Rings of Power, but lesser; just as he made Isengard into a lesser version of Mordor. We can probably assume as well that the Ring he wore was his attempt at his own One, so he probably passed into it much of his strength, just as Sauron did with the One.

So the question I have is this: what happened to this Ring or other Rings??? As they are not mentioned again, it can be assumed that they were either destroyed in the fall of Isengard or, more intriguingly, lost.....hmmmmm....imagine if they, or It, were found by someone years after the War.....hmmmmmmmm...methinks I smell an RPG.......

[Lalwendë]

The Ring Saruman made must have been different to the Rings of Power, as Sauron (as far as we know) was not present when he made it, whereas he was there to influence/corrupt the making of the other Rings. This would exclude the Three which were hidden from him, but even so he had an influence over even these. Saruman's ring was something else.

He certainly had enough Ring Lore to frighten others into falsely believing he could make a Ring of power, if not to physically make one which was effective. Perhaps Gandalf knew enough to realise that either Saruman was 'bluffing' or that any ring he made would not be linked with Sauron (and therefore not such an immediate threat or problem); this may explain why the matter does not concern the Council too much.

I always wonder what such a Ring might do, though. Saruman demonstrated that he could break the Light to see what it was composed from, so he was perfectly capable of other deeds. I think that Saruman, initially at least, was seeking a 'third way' - he did not wish to follow either Light or dark but to find his own solutions, and that he made his own Ring of power underlines this.

I like to imagine that his Ring encapsulated some of the knowledge he gained from breaking the Light, though this is pure speculation. But could it have been in any way as dangerous as any of the existing Rings of power? From the dismissive reaction of the Council and Gandalf, probably not. So where did they get their special power from, in particular the One Ring? If Saruman possessed enough Ring Lore to produce one and it was not as powerful, then it must have been either the maker or the place where the One was made which made it so deadly.

EDIT: Just seen Fordim's post - presumably if he kept this Ring, then it went with him into The Shire, where he was killed. So did the Ring remain in The Shire? Perhaps to languish in a Mathom House? :eek:

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

EDIT: Just seen Fordim's post - presumably if he kept this Ring, then it went with him into The Shire, where he was killed. So did the Ring remain in The Shire? Perhaps to languish in a Mathom House? :eek:

*Fordim madly scribbles down ideas for a new RPG: Heir of the Ring*

[obloquy]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2478

Check it, yo.

Here's what I have to say about it:
The One Ring's most important function was as an anchor to the physical world. Infusing much of himself into an all-but-indestructible object guaranteed Sauron's ability to regenerate if his body was slain. I also theorize that it acted as a kind of reservoir that he could put power into, then regenerate, and repeat, providing a way to increase the amount of power he could call upon beyond his natural limit. Other than this, the One Ring didn't do much. Enslaving bearers of the Rings of Power yielded very limited results, and I would debate whether the Ring actually granted Sauron invisibility as it did to the lesser bearers.

What does this have to do with the topic? Saruman knew he was incarnate, and doubtless knew that death as an incarnate would be permanent. The only way out for the Istari was to be restored by the Valar who had sent them, but Saruman had betrayed them. So what could he do? He probably discovered the true genius of having such a ring as Sauron's, and wanted an anchor and bank vault for himself. Obviously he didn't achieve what he was going for, but in time he may have.

[Lalwendë]

That's a good thread that obloquy links to, worth a read. :) It's got me thinking a little more about this too. It's always possible that Saruman, who was obviously a tinkerer, simply made a ring because he could. He could have been like one of those people who loves to pull things apart just to see how they work. I know I have this urge to pull things apart and investigate them myself, which is possibly part of why I find Saruman so interesting.

But I think he did have darker purposes. I still think that one of the major qualities if not the purpose of the Rings of Power was linked to osanwe. The Silmarillion tells how Sauron sought to control the minds and thoughts of others, particularly through giving them these Rings. We have also seen how Galadriel has considerable powers of osanwe. And we know Saruman is strong in this respect, with his voice being particularly dangerous.

Saruman, to my mind, was trying to create his own Ring to enhance his powers, but he failed to be entirely effective in his endeavour. When Sauron made the One, it is clear he had to pour an immense amount of his own power into its crafting; that the destruction of the One caused the destruction of Sauron and his realm, demonstrates just how much of his power was put into its forging. It's obvious that Saruman did not put quite so much of his own power into the crafting of his own ring, which may be a good reason to explain why it did not work effectively.

But this ring may have had some effects and there is evidence in LotR. Saruman controlled a large army, and not only an army, but he also had gained control of the Dunlendings, and had allies in Rohan and the Shire. Who knows what he could have acheived with more time? He was not in Middle earth for anywhere near the time that Sauron had, and he did not have the remnants which Morgoth left behind for Sauron to pick up and use; he was working from scratch to build his power. He was also easily able to deceive such perceptive minds as those of Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond, all true Ringbearers. Again this may suggest a purpose to his Ring, and that may have been to cloak or cloud the minds of the bearers of the Three - something which he may have sought to do as he wanted to find the One and did not want the Council to perceive his aims.

There is another reason why Saruman may have failed to make his Ring more effective. Maybe a Ring cannot stand 'alone'. Just as much of the potential of a Palantir is lost without another Palantir to communicate with, perhaps a ring of power needs some 'kin' which are in affinity with it in order for it to have genuinely wide ranging effects? And finally, it could be that the One Ring was so powerful because of where it was forged. When it was cast back, it caused the destruction of its maker and his realm, suggesting that this was a cataclysmic kind of 'force' - to return to source an object created from that source. It has got me thinking about something davem said some time ago, that Mount Doom may be a 'tap' to some kind of power within Middle earth, maybe to the Light itself? If Saruman (and for that matter, Celebrimbor) lacked this power during his forging, then the ring/s produced could never have the same terrifying potential of the One.

[Gurthang]

Perhaps Saruman's Ring did work, but not that made much difference to the story. One aspect of the One was that Sauron had a controlling power when he possessed it. Not just over those in opposition to him, but to those already under his authority. He used his Ring to drive his armies before him, and with its power they were less fearful and more aggressive towards their master's goal.

Saruman's Ring could have done this. With his army of Uruks he needed an easy way to control them, since Orcs do not take orders easily. His Ring may have given him the will-power to command them. Perhaps this is why they were so swift and tireless and could move in sunlight. 'They run as though the very whips of their master were behind them.' Saruman's Ring could have been able to branch out and push his servants even beyond his own physical reach.

His Ring provided him with increased 'persuasive' power, not just over others but even more importantly over his own troops.

[narfforc]

I think that if Saruman still had his ring when he left Isengard, then he may well have been able to call on its innate power in some way to enhance the power of his voice. Maybe this is what Gandalf alludes to when he says, "but this snake had still one tooth left", and later Saruman himself may not have issued empty threats when he says, "But do not think that when I lost all my goods I lost all my power. If the ring had any power, then that power remained, as with The One Ring after Sauron was defeated, others used its power.

[Rhod the Red]

I think the Ring of Saruman is what gave him the ability to produce Orcs, etc. How else can they be produced?

In games like the Battle for Middle-Earth they're produced from a pit.

[Eonwe]

Eh? What's this?

I wasn't aware that Saurman ever crafted a Ring of power. Were is this juicy tidbit divulged?

[Rhod the Red]

Gandalf mentioned it in the Couincil of Elrond

[Thinlómien]

It was not a ring of power.

[Rhod the Red]

How do you know?

[Thinlómien]

But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring in his finger.
It doesn't say anything about rings of power.

The ring however, maybe had some magic abilities, as it is paid so much attention.

[Rhod the Red]

First you say no, then maybe? Lol, untie yourself comrade!

[Thinlómien]

I think we have a problem of definition here. You say, that any ring with magic abilities is a ring of power. (Right?) I use the name ring of power only for really significant items, such as the 19 rings made by the elf smiths and the One Ring.

My theory about Saruman's ring, however, is that it was a lesser ring with little magical power, or it was only a status symbol, or that it was a creation of Saruman, who had tried to create a powerful item (and probably failed by the way).

[Rhod the Red]

It was a ring of power, period, in my view. Whether o not it was equal to the originals, does it matter?

[Thinlómien]

As a matter of definition would you call the lesser rings the elf smiths made rings of power?

[Rhod the Red]

Yes.

[Thinlómien]

Then we're arguing over definitions.

I'm only wondering, that if Saruman's ring had power, what did it do?

[narfforc]

Saruman studied the craft of Ring-making for a long period in an attempt gain inner knowledge of The One and Sauron. The Ring of Saruman may well of been the first step towards creating his own Ring of Power, as with the lesser rings of the elves (Essays in the craft). There is no reason why a wizard of the order of Saruman would require to make and wear Bling, he calls himself Ring-maker and not jewel-smith. Even if the ring had the same power as Bilbo's magic cuff-links, it therefore had some power. It is either a ring of no power or some power, it may not be as one of the rings that the elves made, but does that stop others from doing exactly the same thing the elves did to make theirs.

[obloquy]

Then we're arguing over definitions.

I'm only wondering, that if Saruman's ring had power, what did it do?


No, that's not what you're wondering. Surely not. Because if you were wondering what power Saruman's ring might have had, surely you'd have the sense to read the thread you're posting in.


I think the Ring of Saruman is what gave him the ability to produce Orcs, etc. How else can they be produced?

In games like the Battle for Middle-Earth they're produced from a pit.

How might it have done that? A little packet of Orc mix included?

[Thinlómien]

No, that's not what you're wondering. Surely not. Because if you were wondering what power Saruman's ring might have had, surely you'd have the sense to read the thread you're posting in. You think I haven't read it? I'm horrified. ;) Seriously, I don't think this thread has found the answer yet, and I was just trying to get the discussion more on-topic.

[Rhod the Red]

Well we don't know what powers it had. Tolkein doesnt reveal it in his notes nor TLOTR.

[narfforc]

You are quite right Rhod , we do not know and we can only surmise, which of course is the whole point of this website. What we can do is look at how the others rings worked and interacted with their bearers. I do not believe that Narya worked for Cirdan in the same way as it did for Gandalf, this I believe is due to the differing inherent power of each individual. One of Sarumans powers was that of his voice, could his ring have enhanced his desire to bend others to his will?.

[Rhod the Red]

I doubt it. I think it gave him the ability to produce orcs, etc.

[narfforc]

Gandalf goes to great length to warn others of the power of Sarumans voice and deceptive arts, and not for nothing. When Gandalf asks Treebeard upon his return to Orthanc, about the whereabouts of Saruman and being told he was gone, Gandalf has this to say:

'but this snake had still one tooth left, I think. He had the poison of his voice.....

The voice was given weight by the power within the Istari Saruman, that power should have been nullified when Gandalf broke his staff, however if a remnant of that power resided in his ring, which we are told nothing of after The Council of Elrond, then he may well of had one tooth left. Now add this to the debate:

At the doors of Bag End Frodo says: 'Do not believe him! He has lost all power, save his voice that can still daunt you and decieve you, if you let it.

Frodo is saying that the only thing of power that Saruman has left is his voice.

The only thing we know of Orc production is what Tolkien tells us: ' they had life and multiplied after the manner of The Children of Iluvatar', I don't think anything is mentioned about slimy production pits as in the films or in Computer Games. The inter-breeding of the Uruk-hai would probably be no different than producing a mule from two different equine species, not a difficult thing to do without a Ring of Power. Even breeding between the races wasn't difficult, we have lots of Peredhil to prove that.

[Rhod the Red]

"we have lots of Peredhil to prove that." what's your reference for that? I've never heard of it.

[narfforc]

The Offspring of Man and Elf (The Peredhil/Half-elven). If the Atani and Quendi can mate in the normal way, then so can Man and Orc, there is no need for large green pools of slime.

One is singular, a couple are a few, maybe instead of lots I should have said several:

1 Dior
2 Elured
3 Elurin
4 Elwing
5 Earendil
6 Elros
7 Elrond.

This of course does not include the Nimrodel incident, or Eldarion

[The Saucepan Man]

... what's your reference for that?In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs. ;)

[davem]

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs. ;)


"But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun," said Gamling. 'And neither will the wild men of the hills. Do you not hear their voices?" (Helm's Deep)

is the closest I can come to a reference that Saruman 'produced' Orcs. Actually, it doesn't say he 'produced' Orcs at all, merely that he indulged in a bit of genetic engineering.

Unless I've missed something

[narfforc]

Those words are known to me, however I still do not like the word produce. My sister breeds rabbits, she is not a stage magician who produces them from a hat. Only Iluvatar can create life, all else is done the usual way. No matter how unsavoury it is to think of it, the simple and easy way to this is with captured females of the species Man. Tolkien does not talk about Saruman or Sauron having Bio-labs And Genetic Engineering Plants, there is no conveyor belt production line here, all you need is the first batch of inter-bred species then you let them get on with what comes naturally. Tolkien knew from history that races mingled in conquered realms, that's why we talk about Romano-celts and such, how many people in England can stand up and say they are truly an original stock Briton.

[Formendacil]

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs. ;)

Saucey, you have just given me a horrific mental image that I shall likely never shake, and shall have to revile for the rest of my natural life...

After all, men and elves can interbreed, right? So whether orks come from Elves or Men (as Tolkien later theorized they might have) they can interbreed with Men or Elves... and the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth in the form of Men- fully functional, we are made to assume. Therefore, when you say that Saruman "produced" the Orks, I am for some reason left with the mental image of Saruman SIRING the orks.

Ew! Ew! EWW!!

Slightly offtopic, yes... but Ew! And if I have to suffer it, so do you!

[Lalwendë]

I think Rings had little to do with Saruman's breeding programme; he would have done this anyway. I do agree he probably took human women and male Orcs and had them breed; possibly women of the Dunlendings or Rohirrim women captured in the Westfold? I am also sure that Orcs and Men could breed; taking the possibility that Orcs are corrupted Elves, we know Men and Elves could breed, so why not Orcs, if they are/have been Elves?

I also think that Orcs would relish the possibility of breeding with women, distasteful as it sounds. Tolkien took great care not to mention what happened to Celebrian when she was waylaid, but the possibility of something incredibly horrible happening does exist. The absence of an explanation can often speak volumes. :eek:

Anyway, about that pesky Ring again. I have in my mind a picture of that ring. I think it may be constructed of crystal, may include some kind of Prism. This would make it a genuine ring of many colours for a wizard of many colours. It could have been an inspiration for, or perhaps inspired by, Saruman's Light Breaking. It may even have been a tool for what he was trying to attempt in breaking up that Light/Divinity to see what it was made of.

I also noted how Gandalf seems almost to dismiss this ring of Saruman's as a mere trinket. I wonder whether Gandalf really thinks that? Was he trying not to give Saruman and his craft any credence? One of the ways the true Rings of Power seem to work is by reputation; even just to hear of one evokes fear and passion. Maybe Gandalf feared the Ring of Saruman taking on this kind of life, the same type of reputation as the One Ring?

[The Saucepan Man]

Actually, it doesn't say he 'produced' Orcs at all, merely that he indulged in a bit of genetic engineering.Yes, that was rather my point. The image of Saruman spawning Orcs from the earth is one that comes solely from the films. And, as narfforc points out, the quote you gave doesn't even require the notion of genetic engineering. Gandalf's reference to Saruman's "foul craft" might simply be to a straightforward, albeit repellent, cross-breeding programme.

One issue on which Rhod might have a point, however, is the swiftness with which Saruman appears to have been able to build up such a large force of Orcs. There was a thread on this a while back. I cannot remember the exact dates, but I do recall the suggestion that there simply wasn't enough time (between the date upon which Saruman is said to have begun amassing his army and the year of the War of the Ring) for him to breed such a huge army. Perhaps some magic was involved in the process, although there is no suggestion that this was the purpose of his Ring.

I rather agree that, if the Ring had any power, it was directed towards enhancing the user's natural abilities - in Saruman's case, his voice in particular.

I wonder if it allowed the user to become invisible? Doubtful, I suppose, because otherwise Saruman would have used it to this end at some point, for example to avoid the Black Riders or escape Treebeard.

Do we know if he still had it when he staged the Shire coup? Surely Gandalf would have relieved him of it when he was cornered at Isengard.

[Rhod the Red]

Perhaps it lost its power with the destruction of the One Ring? Otherwise Gandalf would have tried to confiscate it, I guess.

[Lalwendë]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that there is nothing said about the fate of Saruman's Ring, so it is possible he took it into the Shire with him. When he was killed I would imagine the ring was picked up by the Hobbits, maybe to languish in a Mathom House?

Or did Sam pick it up?

If it had any kind of property that helped in Saruman's Orc breeding programme, was it an influence on Sam's own personal Hobbit breeding programme? :eek:

;)

[narfforc]

Putting two and two together, brings us to the conclusion that Saruman got lots of presents from Orcs on Fathers Day.....Ha-Ha

[Mänwe]

My take on the matter is in agreement with the majority of the comments made. You are agreed that his ring was one not nearly as potent as the Ruling Ring, it was in all intent and purposes a disaster.

It is clear that he made it because he had the skill with which to do so, you have all said he was Mair of Aule;

"...but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft." -

"But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history." - Silmarillion, Of the Rings Of Power

However it becomes clear that his studying of the art is something that he did not gain to a great proficiency. Otherwise had he learnt the secrets that Sauron had learnt and used in the forging of the Ruling Ring, then he would have had no need to have searched for it. Thus I think it is likely his ring was an experimentation, the pinnacle of his skill for his time was ever devoted to the search of the One.

'Sauman uses the term Ring-maker and Gandalf tells us that Saruman had a ring on his finger- but the logic chain connecting the two is tenuous indeed.

There is absolutely no overwhelming objective evidence to show that Gandalf's comment and Saruman's statement are in any way aligned.

The term Ring-maker is one of the names of Sauron, and the significance of Saruman using that term is that in his pride and folly he is setting himself up to rival the Dark Lord- and seeking to impress/intimidate Gandalf in doing so. (Gandalf is already aware of this name as one for Sauron -cf. FOTR-The Shadow of the Past).

If Saruman had been referring to himself as one who has made a ring he would have said 'ring-maker' - uncapitalized. The capitalized version 'Ring-maker' is one of Sauron's names - and Saruman would be well aware of this.

Moreover, we know from HOME 7 The Treason of Isengard , that Tolkien had removed a reference that might have inclined the reader towards thinking that Saruman had created a ring, and included the term Ring-maker only in the published version. It does not appear in earlier drafts.

An examination of the relevant drafts of the Council of Elrond shows the following:

The Council of Elrond(1) 'He wore a ring on his finger ' stands, but there is no reference to Ring-maker.

The Council of Elrond(2) as (1) but with the inclusion of a comment preceding "He wore" which states , 'and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near to the secret of their making.'

This too, disappears from the published version.

And, even if we assume, for arguments sake, that he had made a Ring, and the evidence is far too slight to prove that he had, it clearly had been a wasted effort as it is never referred to again in the whole of Lord of the Rings and apparently was put to no use whatsoever.

I think on balance that Saruman did not make a Ring, which is why Tolkien made the textual amendments between the earlier drafts and the final form.

[narfforc]

Sorry Manwe but I do not agree. Let us look at the one sentence, in which he describes himself:

1. Saruman the Wise, well that goes without saying, he was so he thought.

2. Saruman of Many Colours, he is not telling us how many different coloured undergarments he possessed, Gandalf tells us the truth of this statement.

3. Saruman Ring-maker, ?

So how can we believe one part of the statement and not another, if Tolkien left that in the published version of his work, whilst alive, then that is one that counts.
So if Saruman was only calling himself Ring-maker because it was one of the multitude of names attached to Sauron, why didnt Tolkien include that as an explanation, because the words speak for themselves, we don't need an explanation.

Now if Gandalf had not mentioned a Ring, it would have given more weight to your argument ie: if Gandalf had only mentioned the words Ring-maker.

[Mänwe]

nafforc can we be certain though that Saruman made it? Although there are quotes to show that he was skilled at craft, the ring we could surmise although there is no reference to this, could be one of Aules making, a sigil that showed he was a Mair of Aule.

I apologise for not making my mind clear as I meant. I as ever strive to produce a balanced post, one that usually contradicts my own arguement. I think the most important part of the post is really my conclusion, which holds in agreement with every one else; there is simply not enough information to prove either way.

[narfforc]

I agree Manwe that there is not much evidence either way, and that is the whole point of why we suppose or surmise, I welcome your point of view to this thread, your stand point has much validity, yet in my view I would like to think that Saruman had set his foot on the first rung of the ladder towards making his ring of power, he had that capability, desire and motivation.

[Rhod the Red]

"I would like to think that Saruman had set his foot on the first rung of the ladder towards making his ring of power, he had that capability, desire and motivation." Seconded.

[Mänwe]

nafforc and Rhod, a deeply unsettling thought. I put to you the question,

"When was it created?"

Would we agree it was made before he left for Middle Earth on his 'mission' or while he was in Middle Earth? I would also question, if he had indeed crafted it while he was residing in Middle Earth, would this be seen as breaking the rule set to the five Istari by the Valar.

"...were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." - The Istari, Unfinished Tales

Could the attempted forging of a ring of power go against the rules here? In arguement that it is, well they were instructed to "advise and unite" not challenge the dominance or Sauron nor control men's wills, if we are to assume that perhaps his ring was to help him in this endevour.

However I think there is more against this theory. I assume had he broken the 'rules' then there would have been some sort of intervention from the Valar, thus his ring did not bring about any upheaval. Though still sufficient to warrant Gandalf's attention.

I would value your views and comments.

[narfforc]

The very desire of the One Ring was enough to corrupt, and as is said: It is dangerous to study too deeply the arts of the enemy. Saruman would have crafted the ring at some stage after his corruption, and well into his sojourn in Middle-earth, and as for breaking the rules that had been set on The Istari, he had probably broken most of them by the time he had made his ring. That brings us to The Valar, they did not directly intercede against Sauron, so I presume they would not against Saruman, they knew how dangerous it was to incarnate Maiar into The Istari, if they had wanted to have kept them from turning, they should not have given them the weakness's of the body.

[Mänwe]

Do you not find this strange though nafforc, you say,

"if they had wanted to have kept them from turning, they should not have given them the weakness's of the body."

But it was not the Valar who gave them this body. As I am sure you are aware they were required to take human form, there is no specific text that shows Valar giving them such a form.

Therefore I ponder as to why Saruman who already had betrayed the Order and the Valar in his search for the One Ring and open campaign to rule Middle Earth, did not take another form, and directly challege Sauron, breaking his "human" form. Are we to suppose that there is some force that prevents them from doing so? Or did he wish to have possession of the One Ring before he did so? There is no textual evidence I have read that answers this.

Am I now straying into the realms of 'what if's', I think I am.

[davem]

But it was not the Valar who gave them this body. As I am sure you are aware they were required to take human form, there is no specific text that shows Valar giving them such a form.

Therefore I ponder as to why Saruman who already had betrayed the Order and the Valar in his search for the One Ring and open campaign to rule Middle Earth, did not take another form, and directly challege Sauron, breaking his "human" form. Are we to suppose that there is some force that prevents them from doing so? Or did he wish to have possession of the One Ring before he did so? There is no textual evidence I have read that answers this.


Maybe I'm reading too much into the words 'In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand.' along with your words 'they were required to take human form', but its certainly possible that the operative terms here are 'human' & 'Men' (which Tolkien capitalises btw). My suspicion is that they are not free to alter their 'human' form. Why inhabit old bodies if they had any option? I tend toward Narfforc's view, to the extent that if the Valar did not actually give them the forms of old Men, there was certainly some specific reason for them having the bodies of old Men & as the Valar were behind the whole thing one can only assume it was their idea, & that if the Istari had freedom to alter their forms Saruman at least would have done so. It would seem that 'incarnation' imposed certain limitations of form on them & that they efectively became 'incarnates', no more able to alter their forms at will than Elves or Men.

[Rhod the Red]

"I assume had he broken the 'rules' then there would have been some sort of intervention from the Valar, thus his ring did not bring about any upheaval. Though still sufficient to warrant Gandalf's attention.

I would value your views and comments."

I think he made it after moving into Orthnac. The lore of the Rings of Power would only have been written, etc, in Middle-earth. About the time of The Hobbit, perhaps using the powers of that Ring to drive Sauron out of Dol Guldor. We know his 'devices' as Elrond called them, were used to drive him out.

You'd need to be pretty powerful to drive out a Dark Lord, even when reduced to some sort of spirit, out of a mountain. Even though Sauron pretended to be forced out. I'm sure he put up a fight of some kind, pretending to resist.

Yes, I think the fact he made it violated the mission of the Istari. We can only assume that by the time Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldor, and then started searching for the One Ring in the Anduin, then Saruman had violated the mission by doing likewise with 'spies'.

[ninja91]

A very interesting topic you bring up. Certainly, if the ring was very powerful and/or destructive, Tolkien would have made a much larger deal about it, and it probably would have been described more. But Tolkien did not just write that for kicks... ;)

[narfforc]

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in the bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though by their noble spirits they did not die and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good................

............But none of these chances were impossible to be; for, strange indeed this may seem the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in search of power to effect it.

So to me it seems that the Valar had a great deal to do with setting the physical limitations of the incarnate bodies of the Istari, and therefore knew the possible implications thereof.

Did the study of the arts of the Enemy lead Saruman to create a ring, wishing to do good with it, yet turning his mind to evil, with the desire of the One Ring?

[Findegil]

Posted by narfforc:Did the study of the arts of the Enemy lead Saruman to create a ring, wishing to do good with it, yet turning his mind to evil, with the desire of the One Ring? At least the forging of a ring of power was considered as a sin, an act against rule of nature that Ilúvatar had made. So even if what we Gandalf did observe at the Finger of Saruman was an false attemp without any power , it would have been the result of a sinfull action.

Thus it might have been that the try to make a ring of power was Sarumans fist false step. As I see him Saruman was surely fascinated by the lore of Ringmaking that he study. What sources could he have for that study? Memory of surfing smiths are not very probable, since the Mírdain did surely defend their house to the last with Celebrimbor. So it must have been written scripts of the Mírdain that were send away with the Three rings or carried by Celeborn or found in the ruins. But that would mean Saruman could only learn what Sauron thought the elven smiths and probably less then that. But also the scripts would most likely dokument the state in whish the Elves were still happy with what they had done or did.
Thus an attemp to employe his knowledge would be natural.

Respectfully
Findegil

[The Saucepan Man]

At least the forging of a ring of power was considered as a sin, an act against rule of nature that Ilúvatar had made.But doesn't it therefore follow from that that Celebrimbor and the Mírdain sinned against Eru's law in making the Three Elven Rings?

They were corrupted by Sauron, and that led to the tainting of the Seven and the Nine. But the Three were used for good.

[davem]

But doesn't it therefore follow from that that Celebrimbor and the Mírdain sinned against Eru's law in making the Three Elven Rings?

Clearly it was a 'sin' from Tolkien's point of view:

'But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake & eat it; to live in the mortal historical Middle Earth because they had become fond of it (& because they there had the advantages of a superior caste) & so tried to stop its change & history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert where they could be artists, & they were burdened with sadness & nostalgic regret''

They had 'flirted with Sauron' in the making of the rings, but their essential 'sin' was their desire to 'embalm' the world - which is what lead them to fall for Sauron's offer of aid.

Whether the Three were used for 'good' is a matter of opinion - I feel their use was rather a necessary evil. They were used to fight Sauron, but in the wrong way - principally by 'freezing' chunks of M-e into stasis. Of course, that was really the only way they could be used & they were the only weapons the Elves had to hand (or at least the most powerful).

Saruman had clearly adopted an 'Elvish' mindset at first & its easy to see that he could have been drawn to try & create a ring of his own originally not to emulate Sauron, but rather the Elven Lords. In other words he was probably driven at first by the desire to create another 'Elven' ring in order to strengthen the power of the opposition to Sauron. Unfortunately, his mindset moves from the Elven (desire to 'preserve') to the Sauronian (desire to rule).

A very interesting topic you bring up. Certainly, if the ring was very powerful and/or destructive, Tolkien would have made a much larger deal about it, and it probably would have been described more. But Tolkien did not just write that for kicks...


Yet Tolkien was perfectly capable of introducing objects simply for the sake of the plot & then simply forgetting all about them - the Book of Mazarbul for instance. 'Saruman ring-maker' just sounds evocative.....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmmm....in danger of taking this thread somewhat off-topic (but not thinking this deserves a thread of its own)...

davem's point about Saruman as adopting an Elvish approach to the world made something twig for me: Gandalf's approach to the world is very Mannish/Hobbitish (the two races being, as Tolkien explains in the Prologue to LotR very closely related to one another -- something that comes through in the narrative clearly). So perhaps all the Wizards were 'assigned' or assigned themselves to a specific race or aspect of Middle-Earth...

Radagast is clearly "with" nature and not a race at all, but as we all know, nature in Middle-earth really does have a character and an almost conscious existence all its own.

So maybe we can extrapolate from this the fate of the two remaining Wizards..? If the Elves attracted Saruman (looking to the glorious past, ring-making, thought and contemplation but no action), Men & Hobbits attracted Gandalf (looking to the future, action and hope, growth), Nature attracted Radagast, then presumably one of the Blue Wizards would have been attracted to a Dwarvish view of the world (which is why he disappears so quickly from history -- like the Dwarves he is a delver and a searcher, but a hoarder and one who keeps what he finds and learns to himself).

Which leaves the fifth Wizard...which Race is he associated with... Well after Elves, Men/Hobbits and Dwarves there's only one important race left: orcs. So did that second Blue Wizard follow the way of the orcs???

Like I said, taking things off topic but I didn't have the energy to start a new thread. The mods can shift and start if they wish...

[narfforc]

Fordim makes a valid point I believe, I have always imagined that Curumo/Saruman worked alongside The Noldor/Feanor in the smithies of Aule, it is certainly possible...........

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Which leaves the fifth Wizard...which Race is he associated with... Well after Elves, Men/Hobbits and Dwarves there's only one important race left: orcs. So did that second Blue Wizard follow the way of the orcs???

What of ents and the Druedain? Might some of the
Druedain have dwelt in eastern Middle-earth?

[davem]

I find the idea intriguing - except Gandalf always seemed a bit more Elvish than Saruman - who always struck me as the 'Mannish' one. Its possible that being more 'Mannish' he was more easily seduced by Elvish things, being 'alien' to him. Or its possible that he lost his 'Elvishness' over time. Certainly by the time he had turned he had lost any 'Elvish' tendencies. I haven't thought that through sufficiently though.

Not sure how far the idea can be pushed though. Of course, it may be that something of the sort was intended, but as the other Istari fell away from their tasks Gandalf had to take on more & more of their duties.

Of course, it would not be necessary for one of the Wizards to be dedicated to redeeming the Orcs. There were Men in the far east of M-e after all.

The difficulty, I suppose (because Tolkien never accounts for it), is exactly how & why Saruman went bad. The attempt to create another 'Elven' ring would fit. If your own side has a limited number of effective weapons it is very tempting to create more. He probably believed he was helping the cause. I suppose its not a very big step from wanting to create an Elven ring to fight Sauron to attempting to better Sauron's own weapon.

Effectively Saruman would have been planning to create a fourth Elven 'Fortress' in Isengard, alongside The Havens (when did he discover Cirdan had given Gandalf his ring - someone remind me), Imladris & Lorien. Isengard would have been the ideal place for a defensive structure & its possible that he originally wanted the place for that very reason. The gap of Rohan was strategically vulnerable - if Sauron could get his forces through there the whole of Eriador would have been open to him. He could also have attacked Rivendell much more easily - getting his forces past Galadriel & over the monutains would have been nigh impossible.

So, Saruman creates a powerful fortress guarding the Gap. The location is perfect. Even if Sauron conquered all the lands east of the Mountains the lands west could have been defended long enough to allow the forces of the West to retreat, re-group & stage a counter attack. Saruman becomes pivotal. Hence he would also have become Sauron's main target. Get Saruman 'on side' & there is only the Rohirrim between him & the lands west.

Saruman gambles on being able to strengthen Isengard by making his own ring, but in the end he is seduced by the idea of himself as 'defender of the west', & is corrupted by his desire for power to defeat Sauron into becoming like his enemy. When Saruman turns his perfect 'defensive' position becomes a perfect 'offensive' one. Isengard is strategically both the best & worst position - best in that if it is occupied by a foe of Sauron it protects one of the most vulnerable spots in Middle-earth, worst in that if it is gained by Sauron or a servant of his it blocks off movement of men & materiel into & out of Eriador & opens up the possiblity of direct attacks on Rivendell & the Havens. No wonder Sauron demanded the handing over of Isengard to his Lieutenant. No wonder, of course, that the Numenoreans built Isengard there in the first place.

The 'line' of fortresses, running from Erebor/Northern Mirkwood down through Lorien, Isengard & Minas Tirith, were all direct targets for Sauron's attacks, but being able to smash through at Isengard, opens up the west perfectly in order for an assault on the last two threats to his total victory. Saruman would have realised this & set out to strengthen Isengard to the best of his ability - hence the drive to study ring-lore & create a ring of his own. Hence also (probably) his elation at finding, & willingness to use, the Palantir.

It seems likely that it was the very importance & responsibility he felt that pushed him over the edge & turned him.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

What of ents and the Druedain? Might some of the
Druedain have dwelt in eastern Middle-earth?

Well I did think of them, but it seems to me that the Druedain are part of the race of Men (certainly, if Hobbits are -- as I believe -- then the Woses are too!); Ents I think are not really a 'race' insofar as they are, well, trees....and thus part of the nature to which Radagast is associated.

[The Saucepan Man]

They had 'flirted with Sauron' in the making of the rings, but their essential 'sin' was their desire to 'embalm' the world - which is what lead them to fall for Sauron's offer of aid.I take your point, and it was one that had occurred to me. And yet each of the Rings contributed significantly towards the success of the Quest to destroy the Ring which, presumably, was in line with Eru's plan. Where would Rivendell and Lothlorien have been without Nenya and Vilya? And where would the Quest have been without these Havens? Specifically, where would Frodo have been without the Power of Vilya brought down upon the Nine Black Riders (assuming, which I do, that such Power was drawn upon, at least in part, to invoke the flooding of the Ford). And Narya was used more actively, by Gandalf, given its association with his mission to rekindle the hearts of the Free Peoples.

Is there not therefore a tension between the "sin" of their creation and their contribution towards the victory of good over evil, in accordance with Eru's plan. Or ios this another example of Eru's words to Melkor that (to paraphrase) all the evil that he created would only contribute ultimately towards the greater glory of good?

On the association of the Istari with the primary races, the concept does not really grab me. if anything, though, would Saruman, as a Valar of Aule, not be more closely associated with the Dwarves?

They had 'flirted with Sauron' in the making of the rings, but their essential 'sin' was their desire to 'embalm' the world - which is what lead them to fall for Sauron's offer of aid.By way of an aside, I am currently designing a boardgame based on the War of the Ring (as yet if another were needed :rolleyes: ), and the suitability of the map of Western Middle-earth for such purpose, specifically with regard to the strategic placement of mountains and strongholds, is striking.

[Bêthberry]

I wonder, is sin an at all appropriate word to use about Middle-earth?

There is, after all, no "Fall" in the Legendarium--Tolkien said he hesitated to incorporate one so as to avoid the possibility of parody-- such as that in Genesis, and LotR appears to have a natural form of religion, without ritual, forms, churches and priests.

Without 'original sin' can there be any 'sin'? Note, I'm not saying there isn't error and evil, just that the connotations of 'sin' might be too Primary World for this sub-created world.

[narfforc]

Just to put Saucy right, sorry you may have already spotted your mistake, Saruman was a Maia, not a Vala. Also the Noldor lived in Aman with the Powers, learning much of Aule.

The Wizards Pallando and Alatar are linked to Orome in UF, so if we look at the description of this Vala, we read:

Orome loved the lands of Middle-earth, and left them unwillingly and came last to Valinor; and often of old he passed back east over the mountains and returned with his host to the hills and the plains. He is a hunter of monsters and fell beasts, and he delights in horses and hounds; and all trees he loves, for which reason he is called Aldaron, and by the Sindar Tauron, the Lord of Forests.

Orome also trained his folk in the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor.

So here are a few possible reasons why at least three of the five went east:

1. To give aid to any of the remaining good Children of Iluvatar.

2. To protect any forests, that may still have Ents/Entwives living there.

3. To pursue any remaining creatures of Melkor ie: A Balrog/Dragon.

4. To stop the Men of the East from serving Sauron.

[The Saucepan Man]

Just to put Saucy right, sorry you may have already spotted your mistake, Saruman was a Maia, not a Vala.Doh! :rolleyes:

It was only a minor thought anyway. As I said, I don't really buy the Istar/race association thing. The Istari were sent to guide and assist all of the Free Peoples in the struggle against Sauron. So each of them, in carrying out their mission, were required to work with each of the races. Even before Saruman fell to evil, Gandalf travelled widely amng all races and cultures. He is most associated with Hobbits and Humans because that is where we find him in the story - where the "action" is towards the end of the Third Age, if you like. But he also travelled widely among the with Elves, and the Dwarves too, probably. If anything, it was Saruman who had the closest association with Men, being as he was given the keys of a Gondorian stronghold, which later bordered on Rohan. I would say that the Blue Wizards went East because there were people of all races dwelling there to whom their mission extended. Radagast, of course, "went native". :D

[narfforc]

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

[obloquy]

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

Why would his ring give him that ability? There's nothing in Tolkien's work to suggest that rings are little power-ups that can be made to confer this or that ability of choice to their maker(s)/bearer(s). If you can provide evidence that Saruman 1) had this ability, 2) had this ability after creating his ring, and 3) did not have this ability before creating his ring, then you might have a reason to wonder. Otherwise it's absolutely useless speculation. Along those same lines, one might wonder if Saruman's ring gave him the ability to wield a knife, dance a jig, or check his e-mail.

[davem]

Lalwende started this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11522) thread on the Rings & Osanwe, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to Narfforc's point.

[Lalwendë]

A thought came to me about how the Ainur have the ability to give power of themselves into underlings. Morgoth gave much of his power into his armies and vast works. Sauron did likewise, lending power to his chief servants.
Was it possible that Saruman was able, by means of his ring, to transfer power to his servants. One of the main weapons of Saruman was The Power of his Voice, the way it could even manipulate you way one thought, and make you think other than what you know. Can Saruman have given Grima son of Galmod, the power of voice, think of what Wormtongue means, twisted words, and how many listened.

Do we know if Grima had a Ring? It is possible that Saruman made one for him if he sought to control the man in any way.

Anyway, I think there is plenty of evidence in the text that Saruman was using sanwe, as did Gandalf. Note that Aragorn warns that few could ever be left alone with Saruman due to the power of his mind:

'No," said Aragorn. 'Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others."

And then there is the very powerful passage where Gandalf and Saruman are locked in some kind of mental battle. Not only do the two wizards strive with one another in thought, but those around them are aware of the battle, even if they cannot discern what is being 'said' (probably as they did not have such honed skills of sanwe):

So great was the power that Saruman exerted in this last effort that none that stood within hearing were unmoved. But now the spell was wholly different. They heard the gentle remonstrance of a kindly king with an erring but much-loved minister. But they were shut out, listening at a door to words not meant for them: ill-mannered children or stupid servants overhearing the elusive discourse of their elders, and wondering how it would affect their lot. Of loftier mould these two were made: reverend and wise. It was inevitable that they should make alliance. Gandalf would ascend into the tower, to discuss deep things beyond their comprehension in the high chambers of Orthanc. The door would be closed, and they would be left outside, dismissed to await allotted work or punishment. Even in the mind of Theoden the thought took shape, like a shadow of doubt: "He will betray us; he will go--we shall be lost."

Then Gandalf laughed. The fantasy vanished like a puff of smoke.

I do think that the Rings of Power may have been created to tap into sanwe, as the evidence for it is certainly strong enough, displayed in their effects on those who bear them. So for Saruman, well versed in Ring Lore, to also attempt to tap into this power is entirely possible.

I also happen to think that Saruman may have created his own Ring in order to help him in his aim to build up an army; this seems to me to be linked to the 'breaking the light' idea - as a prism will break white light into colours, maybe 'breaking the light' with the use of a powerful Ring could have helped Saruman to sub-create his armies.

Note that Saruman seems to have possession of his Ring when he goes to The Shire - nobody takes it from him. And even here he seems to have retained the incredible power of his voice, his ability to command the will of others, despite having no staff or status.

[davem]

Why would his ring give him that ability? There's nothing in Tolkien's work to suggest that rings are little power-ups that can be made to confer this or that ability of choice to their maker(s)/bearer(s).

Clearly the Rings are designed to enhance the power of the bearer (Galadriel says as much - that its not by Elven arrows, or singing amindst the trees, that Lorien is protected. They are designed to focus an individual's power & 'actualise their desire' (in CT's words) ie, they are 'magical' objects.

The question is whether they enable the wearer to 'transfer' their own power to another individual. Whether Grima actually recieved some of Saruman's power is a difficult question. Clearly Tolkien believed it was possible for a sufficiently powerful individual to transfer some of that power to creatures or things (Morgoth transfers some of his power into the stuff of Arda in order to control it, as he does into his servants. Sauron transfers some of his power into the One - whether Celebrimbor does the same with the Three is another question. Clearly, though, 'power' can be transferred from one individual to another person or thing. Elrond controls the waters of Bruinen from a distance - how he does that is not clear, because Tolkien never (as far as I am aware) explains the technicalities of magic in M-e. The simplest & most logical explanation of how a person controls an element or person is that he/she transfers some of their own innate 'power' into said element/person. The only other explanation is that there is some form of free-floating power out there which is just up for grabs by those with the knowledge to do it.

However, we do see that use of magic in M-e is not an easy thing (ie, its not simply a matter of saying the right 'magic words' - Gandalf exhausts himself in sealing the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul against the Balrog). Now, to drag in a Primary World example, when the woman in the Gospel touches Jesus' robe & is healed, Jesus responds 'Some virtue has gone out of me'.

Now, if this speculation is correct, & that magic in M-e involves the transfer of the innate 'power' or 'virtue' from the individual it is entirely possible that the Ring enhances this ability (as the 'Torcs' in Julian May's Saga of the Exiles enhance the psychic powers, latent & actual, of individuals). If a Ring gives its wearer the power to dominate the will of others, to control their actions, to control the elements, (as opposed to just scaring people), it must work in some specific way. If the Ring enables its user to dominate the mind & will of another & force that other to do the wielder's will I don't see any reason why that control shouldn't include not so much a 'transference' of actual power - which would be quite dangerous for the dominant party unless they had absolute control over their victim: you don't want to hand out too much power to slaves - but the means to use the subject as a conduit for the wielder's own power.

[narfforc]

Yeh that's what I meant...............he-he.


P.S The reason I asked whether Saruman used his ring to transfer power, was because unlike Melkor and Sauron, Saruman was incarnated into a weaker body and had far greater restrictions on his inate power, all I was speculating was whether Saruman by use of his ring had circumvented those restrictions.

[Findegil]

Well, but with a look around we find the Dúredain who had the abillity to put some of thier power into the images that they made (such as the faithfull stone). And they were surely incarnated beings with considerably less might than an Istar.
That means that Saruman did not need a ring to transfer power to an individual or an object. He only had to learn the technique.
Anyway, since I think, that the process of ringmaking involved the selfsame procedure of transfering some of the makers power into the ring, it seems clear to me, that Saruman need that ability before he made a ring.

Respectfully
Findegil

[narfforc]

I take your point Findegil , and it is a good one, however why did Cirdan feel it necessary to give Narya to aid Gandalf, if the power to kindle mens hearts was already there, why would he need a Ring to support him:

For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.

Maybe Saruman did have the power already, but maybe that power was enhanced by the Ring, maybe Saruman made his Ring to aid him in exactly the same way Cirdan describes the benefits of wielding Narya to Gandalf.

[Lalwendë]

The Rings are clearly magical, the clue's there in the title. ;) I wouldn't put it down to something as simplistic as them being 'power-ups' like a gem to be collected in a platform game; they are much more symbolic and complex than that. A Ring is already a powerful symbol - an endless circle which is worn on the body. The circle and the cross have been combined by the Celts and Saxons in their own representations of the Holy Cross. The Circle is cast by the pagan in ritual for protection. The circle is seen in megalithic remains, and it represents the cycles of life, the seasons, the planet.

We see the effects of the magical circle in Lorien, where Galadriel has created a beautiful and unearthly realm, protected from the wider world. She uses the magic of the Ring to create this place, almost like casting a 'glamour' over a part of the world. Elrond and Gandalf also use Ring Magic, as of course, does Sauron. When Galadriel 'talks' to Boromir and he is unnerved by her effects on his mind, this seems to be a clear example of Sanwe; she also seems to be able to reach Sam and Frodo in some way through her thoughts. There is also evidence that the control of thought was a factor with the Rings of Power when we look at how the Elves hid their Rings as soon as they 'became aware' that Sauron had his own power to discern them.

I see plenty of evidence in the texts that the Rings could have been used to enhance the abilities of sanwe which all sentient beings possessed whether they were aware of these powers or they were dormant. It explains so much.

[Mänwe]

To raise Bethberry's point pertaining to 'sin' in the trilogy as a lost word because ther being no 'original sin'. There being no religion, I would counter that point by raising the existence of the Istari and the Valar.

Are we to dismiss the Valar as 'Gods' and Eru as 'God', who created Middle Earth in his likeness and to his design. Thus the inhabitants are following his 'protocol'.
And the Istari are messengers of the Valar, thus could be seen as priests. They extol the virtue of the Valar and that of 'goodness', this is a religion, its leaders the Valar. Therefore ultimately 'sin' is certainly a word that can be used. Would you agree?

[narfforc]

I do not wish to get embroiled in the superstitious belief systems of primitive mankind, however I think that Manwe is right. In my dictionary it states:

Sin Transgression of divine or moral law, committed consciously.

To my mind Melkor then is the original sinner, and Saruman is one also, I cannot think of another word to use.

[Mänwe]

Rhod I would point out that his study of the Ring lore was earlier than you think and the time at which he made the ring (if indeed he forged it) is a little complex. The One Ring and the three Elven rings of power were forged in the Second Age c.1600, as I am sure you are aware.

”It was a strange chance, that being angered by his insolence Gandalf chose this way of showing to Saruman his suspicion that desire to possess them had begun to enter into his policies and his study of the lore of the Rings;” – Unfinished Tales, (iii)Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire [My bold]

The meeting took place 2851 of the Third Age,

“2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.”- Appendix B, The Tale of Years (Chronology of the Westlands)

This is one hundred and eighty two years since his making of Orthanc his own and the attack on Dol Guldur. Although this maybe sufficient time for him to make a ring, who is to say he did not forge it in the intervening 77 years from then to the escape of Gandalf from Orthanc where he saw the ring upon his finger. This would however place him in Orthanc.

There are conflicting dates as to when Saruman occupied it.

“2953 Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it.” - Appendix B, The Tale of Years (Chronology of the Westlands)

This then would shorten the time span to only 65 years in which he could have forged it before Gandalf saw it upon his finger. Or conversely a greater time before then and before his taking up of Orthanc in which he could have forged it.

Thus the date of the council, and the reference to his study of the Ring, he may well have forged it long before such a time, perhaps even before he came to Middle Earth.

davem and narfforc I concur with your points on the matter of their ‘form’.

Findegil, perhaps my suggestion above goes in part to suggest an answer to your query. It is however likely that as has been highlighted already he gained knowledge of forging also from Aule, who he was a Maia too.

Fordim, the Ithryn Luin past into the East, there were many races other than orcs in the east, there were Variags, Dwarves, Avari and men, it could have been any or even all. What do you think?

Bethberry I would counter that point by raising the existence of the Istari and the Valar.Are we to dismiss the Valar as 'Gods' and Eru as 'God', who created Middle Earth in his likeness and to his design. Thus the inhabitants are following his 'protocol'.And the Istari are messengers of the Valar, thus could be seen as priests. They extol the virtue of the Valar and that of 'goodness', this is a religion, its leaders the Valar. Therefore ultimately 'sin' is certainly a word that can be used. Would you agree?

As for the reason of the ring being forged have you considered that it may have been in emulation of Sauron; and out of jealously of Narya given to Gandalf. I am sure we can all quote parts of text that show Saruman’s jealousy for the ring, as well as the fact that Saruman feared Gandalf and knew him to be the stronger. Perhaps this ring was an attempt to prove to himself and to Gandalf that he was the better.

“Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth,…”- Unfinished Tales, (iii)Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire

Comments?

[Raynor]

I too believe there is sin in Middle-Earth; in Myths Transformed, Tolkien states that "Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.

Saruman feared Gandalf and knew him to be the stronger
Hm what do you have in mind? You may be right about Gandalf the white, but at the Council of Elrond, he recounts his meeting with Saruman (emphasis added):

- Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to persuade you. Or until it is found in your despite, and the Ruler has time to turn to lighter matters: to devise, say, a fitting reward for the hindrance and insolence of Gandalf the Grey.

- That may not prove to be one of the lighter matters, said I. He laughed at me, for my words were empty, and he knew it.

[Bêthberry]

Please pardon a tardy reply to these interesting points about sin.

I suppose it could be argued that the privation of divine order began with Melkor rather than a fall of mankind (or elfkind, dwarfkind, entkind, etc). Eru is thus, like God, defined as good or perfect, and any creature who deviates from His thought or His music is moving away from perfection of form. However, as sin has been defined in Tolkien's Catholicism, it implies some form of conscious awareness that one is acting contrary to right reason or the moral order. See "Sin", Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) for the full theological argument.)

Does a close reading of the Ainulindale suggest that Melkor was really fully aware of his actions? Was the Void procsribed to the Ainur? Did Melkor know that, having been given the greatest powers, his desire for full creation--which arises from his closer abilities to Illuvatar--was counter to the original creation of Illuvatar?

What is the nature of natural religion in LotR? Nothing has specifically been revealed to the Hobbits, although there are the tales of the elves (who are regarded suspiciously). Nor is the full Legendarium made explicit in the Ring narrative. Does conscience operate in the hobbits as it is claimed to operate in humans? Do Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin know who Illuvatar/Eru is?


Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.


Always there is, in the concept of sin, this idea of will, of a wilful act of defiance. Adam and Eve were clearly given the boundaries and they choose to step outside them. But when religion has not be revealed, well, ....

Another way of considering this question, though, is to recall that in popular culture 'sin' is highly connoted with the shamefulness of nakedness and sex. This connotation of sin is rather absent from LotR, as sex is absent also, or at least is relegated to the Appendices. ;)

[ninja91]

Well, the point is that we dont know what this ring of Saruman could do. It is possible that it was on par with the great rings, but it was never able to be used to its full extent, probably because Saruman did not live much in the mind of evil to put it to terrible purposes.

[Raynor]

Do Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin know who Illuvatar/Eru is?
In letter #297, Tolkien states that:

We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Numenorean descent.
In the light of this, I doubt any hobbit knew of Eru.

[obloquy]

Please pardon a tardy reply to these interesting points about sin.... ;)

I made some characteristically fantastic observations on the nature of Melkor's rebellion here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11734). Davem and Formendacil are a little irritating in that thread, but alatar and HerenIstarion are excellent.