Rocks, Hard Places, etc.... [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Formendacil

07-18-2005, 12:24 PM

Of course there is free will...

Even if no one else has free will, Men do. Men are clearly granted this by Eru in the Ainulindale, the power to shape their fates amid the workings of the world.

I would say that the Elves have free will as well. Precisely HOW this is supposed to relate to destiny, I have no idea, but to my mind, it appears that the Elves MUST have free will.

As my prime example, I present Feanor. Feanor appears to have chosen, very definitely and angrily, to rebel against the Valar, lead his people to death and exile, and then betray most of them in the process.

Now, one COULD make the argument that Feanor was just doing was he was foresaid to do, but why then is he doomed to remain in Mandos- forever, when all other Elves are let go later? If he is doing what he is "destined", and thus has no free will, then he should not be punished, because he has no control in the matter. Not unlike the insanity plea, I suppose.

So Elves have free will. I have no idea how that works with fate, but that isn't the central issue on this thread.

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

So yes, Free Will exists. How it works, I am not sure...

Bêthberry

07-18-2005, 12:31 PM

It's not free, Fordim. It comes at great cost. Just ask Frodo and Sam. :D

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-18-2005, 12:37 PM

Good heavens, I'm the token dissenter.

Remember Gandalf's words to Frodo about Bilbo being "meant" to find the Ring, and that it would mean that Frodo is "meant" to have it also?

You can argue that Frodo had the choice any time to get rid of the Ring and I'll agree with you, but it was not in his character to do so. Even though he *could* get rid of the Ring, the Powers that got it to him knew that he wouldn't, which pretty much gets rid of the idea that he might have tossed it away.

Sam had the "free will" to leave Frodo, but his love and promise ensured that he never would.

Eowyn's "free will" got her to the place where the Witch King was during the battle, allowing her to kill him, but there was a prophecy made (my thoughts on prophecies are already sketchy) which was then fulfilled.

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

mormegil

07-18-2005, 12:45 PM

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

Yes because the person can fail. The prophesy can fail to come about. As you said Sam wouldn't leave Frodo because of his love for him but the point is that he could leave him, as you stated. This of course is free will. Simply because Frodo was meant to receive the ring didn't make it so he had to fulfill the task. He had his agency to turn back at anytime he wanted. And in fact he did at the very end. He exercised his free will to take the ring as his own.

alatar

07-18-2005, 12:58 PM

Not sure how this fits into the Tolkien world, but I'll throw this in. Presumably the whole universe is governed by 'laws.' Planets, stars and solar systems just don't run around willy-nilly; their behavior is governed by laws like gravity etc. There were all of those laws that Newton 'passed' that proscribed what an object (whether at rest or in motion) can or cannot do.

Organisms on this big ball of rock on which we live are also governed by laws. One might say that it's all in the genes, and that when you make a choice, well, you are acting not as a free agent but as a product of what is encoded in your DNA in response to something in your immediate environment.

I like reading, especially Tolkien. My biological father and eldest brother are also avid readers (yet not Tolkien fans), and as I was not raised by said parent...it could be genetic. I was exposed to Tolkien via the school library whereas my father and brother weren't (or most likely they too would have read Tolkien).

Then there are other laws that govern one's behavior. Surely you felt the urge now and again to scream, "PJ is God!" while swinging a homemade replica of Gandalf's staff around in the air in a crowded movie theater while watching LOTR, but there are social mores and also legal issues to consider that (hopefully) governed and possibly restrained your behavior.

I think that Isaac Asimov wrote in the Foundation trilogy scifi novels that societies' actions could be predicted and therefore were deterministic. All that you needed were large enough numbers and you could use math/statistics to determine what people (not individuals) would do. My guess is that once you gather some priors on persons, you then could determine what 'choice' they would make. Isn't this what marketing firms do when they gather information?

At the quantum level, however, the universe isn't deterministic but probabilistic, meaning that you can't know exactly what will occur but can make some really good guesses.

So, whether it's Newtonian physical laws, my genes, my environment or simply the most probable action, I just had to post. ;)

Anyway, assuming the Middle Earth world is similar to what I have above, then I would say that chances are if Frodo had not taken the Ring, then maybe we would have seen "Fatty Lives" spray-painted in American subways. Maybe if Eowyn would have been lost in the initial charge of the Rohirrim, we might have had a site praising Ioreth or her sister. If Frodo or Eowyn would have fallen, then either someone would have jumped into their places or we would not have had the chance to read LOTR as Sauron would control all printing presses and so we'd be stuck reading Robert Jordan of "Wheel of Time"...ahhh...fame.

Eru was merciful. ;)

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-18-2005, 01:17 PM

Aw, I wanted a Favourite Hobbit poll.

davem

07-18-2005, 01:29 PM

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

What makes me question the idea of Elvish freedom of action is their constant looking backwards. Even Feanor's rebellion is inspired by this:

“In Cuivienen sweet was the water under unclouded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk”

He is looking backwards, not forwards. He doesn't seek change to make things different - he doesn't want to go forward into the future, but back to the past. all his desire is to make things as they were. His freedom of thought is limited to working out the best way to undo the changes that have occurred. the Valar, in the same way, only seek to make mainfest the Music. None of them are looking to make new things. They don't look to the future in the way that Men do, & this is clearly because they can't think in the way Men do. Whether Men realise it or not, they have a freedom to act beyond the Music & the constraints it lays on all others.

Elves, Valar & Maiar can only think within certain limits - psychological as well as physical limits. The Music constrains not simply what they may do, but even what they can think about. Their desire to 'embalm' the world around them is ultimately a desire to have things a certain way - the way the Music says it should be. the 'wrongness' in the world that they percieve is its veering from the archetype. They desire only to stop change, & change is mainly instigated by Men.....

Mithalwen

07-18-2005, 01:41 PM

I would say that Men have more freewill than anyone else because of the Gift of Iluvatar to Men. For onceI have the book (I have not forgotten that when werewolves and RPG commitments allow, and I have a death wish, I have to explain my loathing of Luthien ;) )

Sil. "Of the beginning of days" "He (Iluvatar) willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and have no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;"

So Men get cadenzas the rest follow the score. No wonder the elves are passive by the end of the third age.....

Hilde Bracegirdle

07-18-2005, 03:23 PM

Without freewill there would have not have been a story, or at least a deadly boring one. Illuvatar's wish and will for the world and the beings therein does not go unchallanged. But the marvelous thing is that he can accomodate to allow for the occasional misguided individual's freewill. Freewill is just another variable in Illuvatar's plan that might sway one way or another.

Legolas

07-18-2005, 04:39 PM

I started a thread on freewill and evil here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1525) that might be of interest; in the initial post I provide a lot of quotes from Tolkien concerning freewill.

Encaitare

07-18-2005, 09:30 PM

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

Adding to what mormegil said, a prophecy is not specific. Usually it does not go beyond saying that X event will happen. It doesn't say who will make it come to pass, or how exactly it will happen.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-19-2005, 07:16 AM

Freewill is just another variable in Illuvatar's plan that might sway one way or another.
*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-19-2005, 07:41 AM

Cheers for the link lindil, I'd never read that thread before. I particularly enjoy Kalessin's post, second from the top. He/She said:

"It seems clear to me that Tolkien never resolved this level of philosophical problem, or indeed attempted to."

He was writing awesome books dealing in very difficult problems and there are always going to be people picking holes everywhere. Just think: Is there a contradiction in the mythology and if so, is this a negative?

mormegil

07-19-2005, 07:41 AM

*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-19-2005, 07:43 AM

"Is there Free will in Middle-earth?

Yes.

No.

Probably both."

You're confusing me Fordim, stop confusing me! :p :D

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-19-2005, 07:56 AM

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.
Not exactly. You can't have both fate and free will. If you've got a fate (like Turin, or Aragorn), then you can make as many choices as you want, but you'll still end up having to face this fate. Especially Turin, come to think of it. "Master of Doom, by doom mastered." It didn't matter what choices he made, he couldn't escape his doom. It completely negates the idea of free will if half the occurences of your life are already plotted out for you. You can't say "I don't want to experience this" if it's guaranteed to happen by the Allmighty. You don't have a say in the matter any more.

When I was a bit younger, I had a certain "let's not call it prayer... mantra's a better word for it".

Thank you for free will, if that exists, for making life interesting,
And thank you for fate, if that exists, for making life easy.

alatar

07-19-2005, 08:31 AM

As Eru is omniscient, one might think that there is no free will. Plus, as the Music was sung before Arda was made, it would also seem that everything has been plotted/doomed/fated.

Not sure that I agree.

My other favorite author, Frank Herbert (of the Dune series) explored the free will/fate/god question. He posited that a god may want to allow true 100% free will just to relieve the boredom. It would be like watching the same movie night after night - wouldn't it be cool if one time, while watching ROTK EE, Gandalf's staff doesn't break? But I digress.

Anyway, could not Eru have set up the 'rules of the game' (stuff falls down not up, time moves forward, etc), created the original set of actors (valar, maia, elves, men, etc), established his own plan (introduction of the elves at X year, men to show up later, etc) and then sit back and watch how it all plays out?

The evidence gleaned from the actions of Melkor (rebellion), Aule (dwarves), men, etc, would point to free will. Now, it's still Eru's game, and at any time he can change the rules, dabble, or destroy the whole show as he desires. The actors therein can do whatever they feel is the correct choice, but Eru, being the smart god that he is, knows that with some probability that certain outcomes are assured.

Think about it. In the beginning we have only one vala go sour. What if more went against Eru? Would Arda have become so lopsidedly bad that Eru's game would have been spoiled and so he would have had to start over.

Hmmm. What evidence do we have that this time is the first and only time that Eru played the game? What if he tried some other combinations, gathered data, experimented more then finally got a game set up that would provide maximum entertainment/glory while also maximizing the free will of the actors therein?

Gods, being without limits by definition, can do these kind of things...

Durelin

07-19-2005, 09:52 AM

Yes, there is free will.

What would the point be if there wasn't? What kind of story would LotR be? What would Aragorn, Frodo, Boromir, Smeagol, or any character matter if they did not have a choice when it came to their destinies? If Frodo was destined to take the Ring to Mordor, then what is there to admire in his character? If he didn't choose to be the hero, if he was simply forced by destiny or whatever/whoever, does he have any real strength of character at all? The same goes for Aragorn and accepting his kinglyness. If he had no choice, where's his strength and majesty that we all can admire? And what about Boromir: was he simply destined to be desirous of the ring? If so, then what need is there for him to feel guilt at all? Where's the human struggle?!

And I could never accept the fact that Smeagol had to kill Deagol and become the horrible wretch of Gollum...

And now I think of Galadriel and her little temptation. She had a choice. She held a great power, and any true power can be used for both good or evil (though really there's no happy medium). What would the point be if she didn't have the option of using it to make herself powerful, and thus with rather dark intentions? It wouldn't be a true power, as the highest power will lie at the peak of a mountain, at a dangerous height, where it is easy to fall.

No free will, no choice... I want my human struggle!

:p

-Durelin

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-19-2005, 09:58 AM

I'm not saying that I don't want free will. Heck... I really, really want it. More than you can guess. I'm just saying that I don't see how you can possibly have both free will AND fate. One negates the other.

Durelin

07-19-2005, 10:09 AM

Hilde Bracegirdle

07-19-2005, 10:24 AM

I really don’t think that just because something seems bound to happen that it over shadows free will. Neither do I think that just because a prediction comes true that a person is predestined. Some types of personalities are inclined to follow a course that is predictable, and some are influenced by what is expected of them (or what they expect of themselves). This does not mean that their choices are useless, or that they are confined by the will of another.

the phantom

07-19-2005, 10:59 AM

Forgive me if I am just repeating things that others have said, but I have barely read the thread and I won't have time to for the next week or so (I'm on vacation and I only have about five minutes on my cousin's computer before I have to run off and do something touristy).

I think you can have free will and fate at the same time.

Let's say that there is something that needs to happen in Middle Earth- something that is supposed to happen.

So, Eru decides to take care of it. In Tolkien's world, people's spirits/souls come from Eru, so He is the one that determines their personality, nature, and such.

So if he needs a certain task to be completed, he can simply tweak someone so that they will end up doing the task of their own free will.

The person has free will and can choose whatever they want, it's just that Eru already knows exactly what they are going to choose because he knows what sort of spirit he gave them and how events would shape their decision.

So if Eru wants something done, he designs someone with a certain blend of character that will bring about the desired result.

If you know what someone is going to do it does not mean he doesn't have free will- it just means that you know what he is going to do with his free will ahead of time.

Make sense?

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-19-2005, 11:19 AM

Nope.

the phantom

07-19-2005, 11:41 AM

Then read it again.

Kath

07-19-2005, 11:58 AM

No phantom I don't get it. You say that there is free will because they can choose the path they go down but then you say that Eru can tweak their souls to make them go down a certain path. Then surely it's impossible to do both?

alatar

07-19-2005, 11:58 AM

You can choose your own fate.

It's like a game. Like, pick door number 1 to get destiny number 1, door number 2 to get destiny number 2, door number 3 to get destiny number 7...or something confusing like that. And basically there's just a lot of doors. Of course most of them you don't even notice.

Could it be that for each 'choice' there are a specific number of doors. Each door is associated with some probability (sorry if I start sounding like a math teacher). So, for example, there could be 10 doors that Frodo could have walked through when he was making the decision regarding what to do with the Ring. Door #1 is to throw it away, Door #2 is to give it as a gift to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins when the Nazgul are about to show up, Door #3 is to make Gandalf to take the Ring, Door #4 is to encourage Sam to marry Rosie, and just doesn't Frodo have the perfect ring for the occassion, and Door #5 is to give it to one the dwarves traveling through the Shire and make a bet with them that they can't unmake it (bet gold).

Doors #5-#10 are all associated with taking the Ring to the Fire, but vary on the details. Whereas #5 may be to leave immediately without Sam, #10 may be to leave sometime in the future, preferably after Frodo beats the Gerontius Took in birthdays.

Now, Frodo is a Baggins, meaning that he's a bit contrary (i.e. nuts), and he was selected by Bilbo (a bit more nuts) to carry the Ring, meaning that Bilbo saw something in Frodo that would allow for this privilege/curse. Frodo had a deep love for the Shire and its inhabitants, and also had a sense of duty. He had the companionship of Sam, which also helped shape his character. Gandalf surely played some part in shaping Frodo's character and decisions, as he held the Ring of Fire, loved the Shire and Middle earth (and wanted to save it), and also had a clear sense of duty - Gandalf didn't go off studying birds or shacking up in some tower with a copy of "Famous Rings of Middle Earth" coffee table tome. Frodo, seeing Gandalf as an example, may have wanted to be like the wizard. Plus Gandalf was a friend of Bilbo, whom Frodo loved.

So for Frodo, doors #1 and #2 were out completely (would have a very low probability) as choices, as are #4 and #5. Door #3 was a reasonable choice as it allowed Frodo to save the Shire and save himself the hassle, but Gandalf would not allow it and if Frodo were to sneak the Ring onto Gandalf's person, when Gandalf found out, he would be a bit upset (that is if Gandalf didn't raze the Shire along with the rest of Middle Earth as the new Dark-Grey Lord), and we know that Frodo respected the wizard and his greater abilities - not someone with which to mess.

Doors 5 through 10 were therefore more probable choices. Frodo would need some time to torque himself up, and so #5 was out. Door 10 was somewhat reasonable, but I think that Gandalf had Frodo concerned enough not to forget the task completely.

So the even more probable doors were 6, 7 and 8, which we can assume vary somewhat in the lesser details. We can never know which of these three that he chose. And after that set of doors, Frodo went onto the next ten (with blue cloak, red cloak, no cloak, etc)...

Anyway, so my long-winded point is that Frodo had free will to choose whichever door from the set, but as Frodo was the person that he was, the actual number of choices for him were in reality limited.

Fated? I don't think so, but some events have higher (almost certain) probabilities based on what we know.

I'm going to go and have my brain cleaned now - all of that mathematical thinking (more than was posted thankfully) has just made a mess of the place.

Edit - I think that my thoughts crossed with the phantom's...or not.

the phantom

07-19-2005, 12:24 PM

Alatar explained things pretty well.
You say that there is free will because they can choose the path they go down
Yes.
but then you say that Eru can tweak their souls to make them go down a certain path
Yes.

Let me explain.

First, everyone must have a certain nature. How Eru decides what nature to give someone I don't know (perhaps it's mostly random?), but in certain situations it seems that He adds a little something to someone's nature to ensure that they are more likely to take a certain path.

Also, keep in mind that Eru can see what path their particular nature will lead them down no matter what nature they have.

So it doesn't matter if someone is fated to do a great task or not- Eru can already see the choices they will make. Therefore someone who was "fated" to do a great task was not given any less free will than the guy living next door to him who never did anything. They both had a certain personality and Eru could forsee exactly what their personality and circumstances would lead them to do.

I don't believe that knowing what someone is going to do ahead of time means that the person does not have free will to choose.

Durelin

07-19-2005, 12:39 PM

I always just invision one of those chart things you see for tournaments. Like this, only much bigger, obviously...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Durelin/CHART.jpg

drigel

07-19-2005, 01:13 PM

alatar

07-19-2005, 01:21 PM

Nice illustration. I always need to visualize.

This reminds me of L'Engle. We are trying to reconcile a 2 dimensional creature in a 3 dimension universe, and so forth. A line can traverse left and right, back and forth, but will never know up and down. But it's there :)

And keep in mind that the lines can intersect in places too, meaning that divergent choices can still lead to the same place over time.

Assume that upon meeting Gollum that Sam and Frodo decide not to take Smeagol with them, but after getting lost in the Dead Marshes, reconsider and then accept Smeagol's guidance (who had been stalking them as he always does).

Assume that the decision tree is an n-dimensional spiderweb - whatever that means...

Eomer of the Rohirrim

07-19-2005, 01:42 PM

Fordim is forcing us to make up our minds, because 'Probably both' means 'Yes'.

So you are just sooooo alone Fea. :p

Hilde Bracegirdle

07-19-2005, 02:13 PM

Ah, but Fea's not alone. I see that our beloved pollster has ticked in on the side of NO without comment here.

What say you, dear Mr Hedgethistle? Is this some lightly held belief or one of Blake's 'reptiles of the mind', to quote davem's signature?

mark12_30

07-19-2005, 02:21 PM

Mr. Hedgethistle is simply stating the paradigm for his threaded realm. That lidless pug, wreathed in flame, is watching you, Mrs. Bracegirdle. He has already decided your fate.

Bêthberry

07-19-2005, 04:30 PM

Also, keep in mind that Eru can see what path their particular nature will lead them down no matter what nature they have.

So it doesn't matter if someone is fated to do a great task or not- Eru can already see the choices they will make. Therefore someone who was "fated" to do a great task was not given any less free will than the guy living next door to him who never did anything. They both had a certain personality and Eru could forsee exactly what their personality and circumstances would lead them to do.

I wonder, would or could Eru, as supreme creator, create a perilous realm that would enable him to experience that unexpected twist of fate called eucatastrophe, which I would think is the unexpected consequence of choice or choices? Would he need or want that jolt of surprise which Tolkien says is the proper state of man in the fairey realm?

If his own creation cannot allow him that, I guess I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for him. Existence must be rather boringly predicatable then, if predictions are possible for someone who sees all time at once and knows all. Or maybe he is just so busy knowing everything in his state of perfection (I assume perfection is the state of Eru, although I could be wrong) that such mundane features which stimulate those with the gift of mortality are not necessary for him? Maybe the thrill of eucatastrophe is like a petit mort for mankind, a rehearsal for the really big shew (paraphrasing old Ed Sullivan here) and so is something Eru doesn't require?

In other words, is free will in Middle earth necessary for Eru's pleasure in surveying his creation or does he prefer the monotony of always seeing his creation turn out exactly as he wants?

the phantom

07-19-2005, 04:58 PM

That is an interesting thought, BB.

Perhaps Eru holds all the cards but chooses not to always look at them? Maybe He sits back and watches things unfold and shields Himself from His future knowledge except for in times when it is necessary?

Or perhaps He is somehow capable of knowing what is going to happen and being surprised by it at the same time?

Who knows? We're talking about a being who does not operate on the same plane as we do.

It's possible that if Eru himself answered the free will question we would lack the capacity to understand the explanation.

Well, except me of course. ;)

Durelin

07-19-2005, 05:02 PM

We're talking about a being who does not operate on the same plane as we do.
A being created by one who does, and formed through words we understand. 'Tis always the most interesting and bewildering part to me.

Fordim Hedgethistle

07-19-2005, 09:45 PM

OK, so why have I voted in the "no" camp (other than to rub shoulders with the lovely Feanor, that is)....

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

Throughout LotR, for example, people are presented with a series of either/or options -- for Frodo it's claim the Ring or resist the Ring; for Sam it's be loyal or disloyal; for Aragorn it's follow the Paths of the Dead or not; for Eomer it's help Aragorn or hinder him, and on and on and on. And all of these choices are really the same choice -- choose between good or bad; to follow those who are doing Eru's work or to hinder them. And like I said above, even those who choose to hinder the Plan still end up helping it along -- Saruman bringing Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, Gollum betraying Frodo, etc.

That is why I say there is no free will in Middle-Earth. 'Free' in the sense that nobody is completely unfettered of the plan or design of Middle-Earth's creator. This is, I would add, an essentially Medieval view of the world -- no surprise givien the Professor's imaginative debt to that world. The absolute freedom of the individual to choose to become or to be or to act in whatever way or form as desired by the individual was unimaginable to the Medieval mind: it was much simpler than that -- do good/what God commands or don't. So the will is operative, but not within a very wide or "free" scope.

mormegil

07-19-2005, 11:40 PM

Fordim I understand what you are saying but you make each choice seem so cut and dry. Sure Sam had the choice to be loyal or disloyal but it's a choice in varying degrees. The way you have stated it makes it seem that he's either 100% loyal or 100% disloyal. He possibly could have done more or even still he could have done less and still be considered loyal to Frodo. I think you've made each decision too black and white to be truly valid.

daeron

07-20-2005, 01:13 AM

How does one decide? But yes, I would agree there is free will. Elven rebellion in Aman , men turing to the dark side corrupted by Morgoth, Numenorean rebellion etc. have convinced me.

I remember a passage from the Silmarillion where Aule is reprimanded by Eru for creating creatures without free will, which have to sit idle when Aule is busy with other issues. He sets off to strike them down when they bow and shrink, bending in fear of the hammer. Eru tells Aule that this response of the dwarfs is that they have been taken over by Eru and have a free will which Aule was not able to give them.

But another interesting thing I want to discuss. Is everything good attributed to presence of God ( or his will) and every bad to his (or its) absence? ( There was one stupid statistics study in which catastrophies were proofs of God's absence and times of harmony and prosperity as proof of his existence which concluded with a 67% chance of his existance.)

But if Eru's will was present why would he create evil and mar his own creations. Does he wish to see his own creations destroyed just so he could have a good time in his "theatre". No, I think free will was present but Eru did give a nudge now and then to set things right again. Like he let Earendil cross the seas or gave Gollum a push down.

Is a vow made to Eru an act of free will. That was what started the events of the first age. So are all those free will? My answer is yes.

Another doubt. Are the creatures of the dark side under free will or under Morgoth's( or Sauron's) will. Aule, a valar couldn't give free will, so can Morgoth, or Sauron, the Maia? Or are they too under Eru's will?

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-20-2005, 07:11 AM

They both had a certain personality and Eru could forsee exactly what their personality and circumstances would lead them to do.

I don't believe that knowing what someone is going to do ahead of time means that the person does not have free will to choose.
Have you ever read Aldous Huxley's Brave New World? My signature entertained a quote from the book for awhile, but your words just brought it irrefutably to mind. You say that personality and circumstances lead people to things... in Huxley's book (taking place in a few hundred years) eugenics provides what you're talking about. It's nature versus nurture, only tweaked so that nature is what you make it, and you nurture it into what you want. By the time the "babies" are done being genetically enhanced (for alphas and betas) or conversely screwed up (pouring alcohol into the feeding tube of the fetus for epsilons and whatnot), you've got a load of "people" who are not only absolutely perfect for their lot in life, but who love every second of it, because it's what they're made for.

Sounds rather sinister and messed up, right? But they've got free will, yes, because each "person" can decide what to do each day. Going to work is entirely up to them. They can decide how much soma to take to escape reality. They can choose who their partners will be each day/week/whenever. They don't know any better than what they see before them, so the choices are free, yes? No constraints that they are aware of, so does that make the choice entirely theirs?

Fordim I understand what you are saying but you make each choice seem so cut and dry.
Because it is?

Sure Sam had the choice to be loyal or disloyal but it's a choice in varying degrees.
But surely disloyalty remains disloyalty regardless of the degree?

I think you've made each decision too black and white to be truly valid.
But what about those of us who live in a truly idealistic world where right is right and wrong is wrong (so far as we are able to tell, of course) and you can't grasp concepts that actively contradict themselves? Why else would I drop Calculus? Having a number called 2Infinity negates the concept that infinity is already the biggest. Having fate negates the idea that you can choose your own life down to the last degree.

mark12_30

07-20-2005, 07:35 AM

It's possible that if Eru himself answered the free will question we would lack the capacity to understand the explanation.

That may be the most perceptive statement yet in this whole discussion.

Well, except me of course. ;)

...and that's a good laugh. :p

mormegil

07-20-2005, 07:54 AM

But surely disloyalty remains disloyalty regardless of the degree?

For example what if Sam did everything the same along their journey but didn't feel like finding water that time when Frodo was sleeping. Or what if he just didn't think he had it in him to carry Frodo to Mt Doom. Would we still view Sam as a loyalist or would he now become disloyal? Remember everything else remains the same just two small things change.

mark12_30

07-20-2005, 08:00 AM

alatar

07-20-2005, 08:36 AM

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

As stated earlier, no actor with the exception of Eru is without some constraints - even Manwë or Melkor couldn't simply wish the other away. Only Eru has the "infinitude of possibility," and I would say that this too is assumed. Never having been a god, I'm not sure if there are not limits even for an infinite being (like not being able to unmake yourself). Maybe the phantom can attempt to explain such concepts as infinite beinghood to the rest of us...;)

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

You, as the observer, may see the choice of one of the actors as limited or even non-existant, but for the person, the perception of free will is more important than even having truly 100% free will. At no time during Sam's journey from the Shire and back did he try to make one choice yet end with the result of a completely different choice.

Assume the scene where Sam goes off to get water in Mordor. Assume that Sam decides that it's not worth the risk, as Gollum or orcs are lurking near, and so he does not get any water.

Bang! Suddenly his mouth is no longer dry, and his and Frodo's waterskins are filled with water. Surely Sam would think that the Lady (or Peter Jackson ;) ) had something to do with this miracle, and would think that it was a good thing, but you and I would see that Sam's decision regarding the water meant nothing - it was just for show.

It's like when parents give a child a false choice where the parent really doesn't care what the child decides as the choice has already been made by the parent. Great way to screw your kids up as you teach them that no matter what they do, it means nothing. You end up with a passive "what does it matter what I think anyway" or and aggressive rebellious destructive child.

Eru is a better parent than that.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-20-2005, 08:53 AM

Great way to screw your kids up as you teach them that no matter what they do, it means nothing. You end up with a passive "what does it matter what I think anyway" or and aggressive rebellious destructive child.
Or you end up with a low-key, idealistic, and remarkably confused one that's out to change the world, but isn't sure whether it would be more of a comfort to have fate on her side, or free will.

I guess what this debate boils down to is not what we think there is in Middle Earth, but what we want there to be. If it is more of a comfort to think that Eru has a master plan and that it will all work out for the greater good in then end, then you're going to vote that there is fate.

If you would prefer to believe in the unimaginable power of each individual that can be used to effect change, be it for good or evil, and without some divine foresight involved... then you're going to want free will.

Or, if you're like me, you're going to want both depending on momentary whims, and you're going to be confused as all heck because you can't, as cliched as it is, have your cake and eat it too.

mormegil

07-20-2005, 09:18 AM

Loyalty is an attitude of the heart. Fetching water, etc, is a deed that flows from that loyalty, and might be affected by weariness, weakness, distractions... Perfect service is not a faultless indicator of a perfect heart, nor is imperfect service a faultless indicator of an imperfect heart; but in general, they give us a pretty good idea.

If Sam's deeds had measured more or less than they do, we would still measure him by the greatness of his heart. His deeds provide ample evidence of that greatness.

"The greatest among you shall be a servant of all." Frodo served all, and Sam served Frodo. Both show greatness of heart.

Okay I see that my rushed example went a bit awry. It's not a question of his heart it's a question of varying degrees of loyalty or disloyalty. Remember I said in my example that Sam was able to get the water but didn't feel like it. He was not as loyal, in this instance, to Frodo as he is in the text. Therefore, I would still view Sam as a loyal companion to Frodo but to a bit lesser degree.

Disloyalty may illustrate my point a bit more clearly. It was stated that Sam could either be loyal or disloyal and those were his only two choices. Now couldn't he simply have been neurtral from the beginning. Neither wanting to help or hinder Frodo? Many people did that and they weren't considered disloyal. Sam, had he chosen to be disloyal to Frodo could have done many things, turn him into the Nazgul, kill him, go with him grudginly whinning the whole time and refusing to help. Obviously each is being disloyal but a different degree of disloyalty is associated with each choice.

Does this make any sense? I sometimes have difficulty expressing what I think.

alatar

07-20-2005, 09:33 AM

I guess what this debate boils down to is not what we think there is in Middle Earth, but what we want there to be. If it is more of a comfort to think that Eru has a master plan and that it will all work out for the greater good in the end, then you're going to vote that there is fate.

If you would prefer to believe in the unimaginable power of each individual that can be used to effect change, be it for good or evil, and without some divine foresight involved... then you're going to want free will.

Or, if you're like me, you're going to want both depending on momentary whims, and you're going to be confused as all heck because you can't, as cliched as it is, have your cake and eat it too.

Isn't the reason that we have a God or gods is to feel like "it will all work out for the greater good in the end"? Someone or something is in control, has a plan, will make it all work, will keep the wolves at bay while we sleep at night? Even as adults are we all looking to and for that all-knowing, caring and loving parent that we had or always wished that we had? Is this what we call God?

What a scary thought to think/know that no one is in control, that there is no plan, that it might not work out and only our own vigilance will keep us safe! :eek: It's all up to us.

In another thread I posited that Manwë was the worst ruler in Arda. He always seemed too passive and reactive to me ("Oh, look what Melkor has done. maybe we should do something about that..."). Is this because, as one of the original singers of the Music and 'first-born' of Eru, he relied on this music/fate a little too much?

"It'll all work out, and if not, Papa Eru's up there and he'll set thing to rights," said Manwë as he continued to sit on his throne.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-20-2005, 09:53 AM

What a scary thought to think/know that no one is in control, that there is no plan, that it might not work out and only our own vigilance will keep us safe! :eek: It's all up to us.
Honestly, that was always reassuring to me. Thinking that my own actions determine my fate means that my actions have consequence. What I do truly matters, and quite honestly, that keeps me really good. :) Bad karma is not something I want to deal with, so I behave (most of the time) in hopes that if I lead a good life, it will in some way help the world.

Versus thinking that I'm leading a good life because a deity I'm not sure about wants me to for reasons beknownst to Him/Her alone.

And that is no doubt why I chose no. With an All-Powerful Eru calling the shots and having this fantastic ending that only he knows about, but that everyone has a part in creating, it means that your life is not yours, it's His. If you're leading a life that's entirely someone else's, even Eru's, than your decisions are his, not yours.

alatar

07-20-2005, 10:05 AM

Honestly, that was always reassuring to me. Thinking that my own actions determine my fate means that my actions have consequence. What I do truly matters, and quite honestly, that keeps me really good. :) Bad karma is not something I want to deal with, so I behave (most of the time) in hopes that if I lead a good life, it will in some way help the world.

So what you are saying in that, as far as you can perceive, you have free will. Some entity may be up there calling all of the shots, and your whole reality may be a Peter Jackson soundstage (or maybe not; everything would be "bigger" ;) ), but you think that you are a free agent, and so I guess that's all that matters.

How would one distinguish the difference between a world where there is free will and one created by a infinite being with the appearance of free will? Luckily I have better things to think about...

And in regards to "being good," I just see it as the easier way (lowest energy state) to do things - lying, cheating, stealing, being duplicitous, etc just takes too much energy, and with three little ones in my life, I'm tired when I get out of bed in the morning.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-20-2005, 10:16 AM

So what you are saying in that, as far as you can perceive, you have free will. Some entity may be up there calling all of the shots, and your whole reality may be a Peter Jackson soundstage (or maybe not; everything would be "bigger" ;) ), but you think that you are a free agent, and so I guess that's all that matters.
What I'm saying, is that I'd like very much to believe in both, but today, when I have nothing better to do but think about it, I'm not sure which I prefer. I've noted that when somebody I care about dies, I turn to Eru in hopes that "he has a plan". Because when I feel helpless, it's comforting to think I'm not alone. When I succeed in something I've worked my butt off for, I'm arrogant enough to think that my success is based singularly on my own effort.

Take from that what you will. When I'm helpless, I convince myself that my involvement isn't really needed. Is it free will to choose to believe in fate?

mormegil

07-20-2005, 10:36 AM

Isn't it possible for a master plan to exist and still have free will? Could not our free will or agency be a key component of that plan? One is not fated but has a choice which is part of the plan is to have a choice to do good or evil.

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-20-2005, 10:49 AM

Isn't it possible for a master plan to exist and still have free will?
Certainly, if your master plans consists of "I'm gonna sit back and see what happens."

If the master plan has a predetermined outcome (say "good", or "evil" or even as narrowed down as "Sauron WILL be overthrown") then all of the "free will" is working to achieve it, which means that the infinity of outcomes that should come with free will is drastically diminished.

Hilde Bracegirdle

07-20-2005, 11:00 AM

It seems as through this discussion is more about destiny than freewill. The ultimate outcome of events is larger than the individual, yet in Tolkien’s world we are continuously reminded that even the choices of seemly unimportant or brief lived individuals can shape the milestones in the history of Middle-earth. While perhaps at the very end of time Eru’s plan will come to pass, I don’t see this as the force governing the character’s decisions, especially in LoTR.

Formendacil

07-20-2005, 11:54 AM

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

But this cannot be the case in ANY world that our humans minds can imagine existing. In this world, and pretty much any world that we can fictionally pattern on it, we are constrained.

You say that in a perfectly free world, one's will would be unfettered by ALL considerations. Therefore, in that world, if I so WANTED, all I would have to do is WILL it so that I had whatever girlfriend I wanted. Or say that I wanted to forget a relationship. Zap! It's gone, never happened.

In this world, and Arda, people and their wills are subject to various constraints. The contraints of time, physical constraint (restraint? ;) ), the constraints of money, the constaints of character.

Or, in the context of this thread, the constraints of a human mind, which cannot exactly grasp some things... like free will.

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

I would say that if you feel this way about Arda, you must feel the same way about your own life. If those constraints exist in Arda (of time, physics, brains), they also exist in our world.

That is why I say there is no free will in Middle-Earth. 'Free' in the sense that nobody is completely unfettered of the plan or design of Middle-Earth's creator. This is, I would add, an essentially Medieval view of the world -- no surprise givien the Professor's imaginative debt to that world. The absolute freedom of the individual to choose to become or to be or to act in whatever way or form as desired by the individual was unimaginable to the Medieval mind: it was much simpler than that -- do good/what God commands or don't. So the will is operative, but not within a very wide or "free" scope.

To recap, highlighted are the words I am questioning the most. The plan and design of Eru includes (in Arda) gravity, linear time, and the limitations of sentient minds.

So does this make one have no free will? The same conditions exist in our world, and I would say that I have free will. Would you say that you do?

In essence, that is what I would say this entire question boils down to. If you feel that you, yourself, have no free will, then one would probably say that the inhabitants of Arda have no free will. If one feels, as I do, that he/she has free will, then they would probably agree that those in Arda do. Or so I read it.

So what of it, Master Fordhim: do you say that YOU have free will?

alatar

07-20-2005, 12:12 PM

Formendacil's post got me thinking, and this thread is begging the question:

Can your free will be used to negate your own free will? You choose not to choose? I'd place that question with the "Can a god create a rock so heavy that it cannot lift it?" and "Does this make me look fat?" ;)

mormegil

07-20-2005, 12:21 PM

By choosing not to choose you still have made a choice...wait didn't rush sing that?

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-20-2005, 12:38 PM

" [something about a celestial voice]/If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

That the one you're thinking of? Because now it's stuck in my head, and when you have a song in your head that you only know a few words to, that's [b]annoying. :p

Although it does make one think. So I've been asking friends all morning what they think of this arguement as it applies to RL, and I've gotten two answers. The first is that there is both free will and fate. Free will is you making decisions that appeal to you, and fate is when a higher power steps in to knock you down a few pegs and keeps you from getting cocky or screwing up too badly. :) The other answer is that there is only free will and that what we like to think of as "fate" is just a series of circumstances that come out in favor of a certain occurence.

So I considered that for awhile, then I considered a post of alatar's (from yesterday morning), and then I considered a few if/then statements, and here's what I came up with:

If you've got an open ended question like with The All-Mighty setting up the rules and then sitting back to watch the game, then you can have both fate/destiny/higher power and free will. Because the Ultimate Plan of Eru is to sit back and see what happens, but not to encourage it or tweak it.

If, on the other hand, you've got a clearly defined (or defined in any way) ending to the story (Eru's got something in mind that's going to happen), then anything you do plays into it and it's already been forseen. If it's already been forseen, it's already happened, and you can't change what's already happened, even if it happens in the future.

Now since I don't think that last bit made any sense at all, I'm just going to give up for awhile, since I suspect that I might be being pig-headed without noticing.

davem

07-20-2005, 12:47 PM

The German mystic Meister Eckhart believed that God creates past, present & future from outside time, in eternity. In other words, He is creating the Past all the time. This is because it is His nature to Create & the whole of time & space is in a constant state of being created. So, not only are present & past full of possibilities because of free will, but so is the past.

Eru's plan for the completion & perfection of Ea is precisely that - that in the end it will be complete & perfect. Knowing all hearts & minds & thus what will fulfil them all, & being omnipotent, one can only assume that He will bring about a conclusion that will satisfy all beings, one which will include true freedom for all.

Mithalwen

07-20-2005, 01:03 PM

I'd place that question with the "Can a god create a rock so heavy that it cannot lift it?" and "Does this make me look fat?" ;)

I am not qualified to comment on gods (the rain-goddess tag IS a joke ;) ) but I can sadly vouch that it is generally fat that makes one look fat not garments..... (unless they really do shrink in the wardrobe) :(

Durelin

07-20-2005, 05:04 PM

Free will isn't free without will.

strength
+
desire
+
faith
_______
Will

Will comes from Eru (creator of everything, including will), thus Will = Eru, and Eru = fate, and thus Will = fate.

But it's still free will, when you add it all up.

And yes that made sense in my head...somehow....

Nilpaurion Felagund

07-20-2005, 10:43 PM

Do you want the free will to answer "Yes"? Or are you fated to answer "No"?

Or the other way around. In which case everything gets confusing.

We should perhaps focus on answerable things, like "Do Werewolves have wings?"

This nonsensical post is brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood nonsense.

Fordim Hedgethistle

07-25-2005, 05:07 AM

So what of it, Master Fordim: do you say that YOU have free will?

Ah, but that's not really the question here is it? I do not live in Middle-Earth so I do not exist under the same conditions as do the characters in the tales (i.e. the omnipresence of Eru in the Plan on Existence).

So whether I have free will or not is irrelevant...

Although I do wish I could visit M-E once in a while....

Feanor of the Peredhil

07-25-2005, 07:56 AM

So whether I have free will or not is irrelevant...
Untrue. I hate to use the word, but here it comes... canonicity. If you see it based on the book, your answer stands. If canonicity is based on the reader's perceptions, then your answer is a well thought out group of meaningless words. :)

Since canonicity is [and always has been] based on the reader, then I am entirely accurate in saying that there's not a lick of free will in Middle Earth, since that's how I perceive it. ;) :p

alatar

07-25-2005, 08:57 AM

Since canonicity is [and always has been] based on the reader, then I am entirely accurate in saying that there's not a lick of free will in Middle Earth, since that's how I perceive it.

Not sure what you mean. Maybe this is close; maybe not, but having written some fiction now and again (besides my "what I did at work all day" logs, that is ;) ), there something that I found to be strange. I'd start off writing a story, think that I had a good idea where it would go and how it would all end up. I knew what I wanted the main character(s) to do, where they would begin and end on their story 'arc,' and what I considered to be enough of their histories to be able write the short story that I had in mind.

But a funny thing happened to the pen on the way to the paper...

I'd end up with a completely different story! The character(s) would take off, as I started to breathe life into them, and I would be come less and less the creator of the story and more the observer/recorder of the event. Personal histories would have to be written and rewritten just for my eyes (I always like Tolkien's use of the "Cats of Queen Berúthiel" and what he did to throw that line in the dialogue) so that the character's present state would make more sense, and it was like I needed to ask the character, "So why are you you?" The process would become interactive, and in my less lucid moments I would be having mental discussions/arguments with the characters.

Okay, so I have a few issues...but anyway, does free will exist on the written page? My experience would indicate that it does.

And, as another example, this post started out making some sense, and now look where we are...;)

davem

07-25-2005, 09:12 AM

Makes me think of Tolkien's comments:
I have long ceased to invent. I wait till I know what really happened. Or till it writes itself. (Letter 180)
&
But as it is - though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem to me rather revealed through me than by me - its purpose is still largely literary (&, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). (Letter 153).
& his comment on a visitor who said:'Of course you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?'. Tolkien replied:
'No, I don't suppose so any longer.' I have never since been able to suppose so.(Letter 328)
Maybe the real question should be 'Did Tolkien have free will'? ;)

Hilde Bracegirdle

07-25-2005, 10:46 AM

Maybe the real question should be 'Did Tolkien have free will'? ;)

Now that would be an interesting thread! ;)

mark12_30

07-25-2005, 09:13 PM

Makes me think of Tolkien's comments:
Quote:
I have long ceased to invent. I wait till I know what really happened. Or till it writes itself. (Letter 180)

&
Quote:
But as it is - though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem to me rather revealed through me than by me - its purpose is still largely literary (&, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). (Letter 153)

.
& his comment on a visitor who said:'Of course you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?'. Tolkien replied:
Quote:
'No, I don't suppose so any longer.' I have never since been able to suppose so.(Letter 328)

Maybe the real question should be 'Did Tolkien have free will'?

If we take him at his word that he was, as he supposed, operating as God's tool or mouthpeice (or scribe) in the prophetic sense (and I, for one, do believe it)-- then it still remains that he had the option to refuse to serve, and the freedom to choose to serve or not to serve. In choosing to serve, he surrendered some of his choices regarding the design of that which he sub-created-- but his choice to surrender was freely made.

Turgon Philip Noldor

07-26-2005, 03:25 AM

Yes, I believe there was free will, but some wills were not strong enough to fight opposing wills. So when Boramir tried to take the ring from Frodo, the resson might have been because his will was not strong enought to fight the will of the Ring.

The Saucepan Man

07-27-2005, 08:13 PM

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.I disagree. Free will is not unfettered in our world and so it can never be unfettered in any fantasy world which approximates to our own. "Free" within this context, therefore, cannot be construed as impying a total lack of constraints.

We necessarily have limited free will because we cannot do whatever we desire. I could not simpy walk through the Alps, even though I might desire to do so. I would have to walk either round or over them (and even then I would not have unlimited free will to do so as I liked). In both our world and in Middle-earth there can be no such thing as unlimited free will, and so the phrase "free will" must necessarily imply a degree of restriction.

Of course, Middle-earth is not our own world, and so free will within it is of a different nature. In many respects it is more restricted, as a consequence of matters such as the existence of Eru's plan, the immortality of the Elves and the various Dooms that are pronounced. But, limited though it may be, free will still exists.

And I would argue that the existence of free will does not preclude the operation of fate. If someone is fated to do or experience something, that does not prevent them exercising their free will in matters which do not impact upon that fated outcome. Even with regard to matters which do impact on it, they still have (limited) free will to choose the path which gets them there. Turin, for example, had freedom of action in many respects, but could not avoid the Doom which Morgoth had pronounced. His free will was limited by his fate. But he nevertheless had (limited) free will.

So I will vote for both.

Thinlómien

08-08-2005, 04:44 AM

One clear example of free will can be found in FotR chapter 10. (Sorry I can't quote this, but I don't have LotR in english). Frodo is in Amon Hen and the two forces, the Eye and the Voice fight inside his mind. The Eye orders him to come to it and the Voice orders him to take the ring off. (I tried to translate the following sentence): "Suddenly he became aware of himself again. Frodo - not the Voice nor the Eye - was free to choose and there was only a little moment of time. He took the Ring off his finger."
That's clearly free will, isn't it?

Azaelia of Willowbottom

08-11-2005, 06:20 AM

I voted "yes and no". I don't have any real text evidence to support this...and it's mostly influenced by my own worldview.

I think that without some degree of free will, our actions lose their meaning, and that goes for LOTR, too. If everyone in the story was acting *completely* according to destiny or fate, a lot of the amazing moments lose their power. For instance, Frodo's choice to take the Ring. It's a much more amazing thing to consider if you believe that he was acting of his own free will in making that choice: He could have said no and gone home, but instead he took the Ring and endured all kinds of pain and suffering as a result.

However, some things must have been meant to happen. Aragorn fights an inner battle about his heritage and birthright, but in the end, he takes the position as king and leader. This, I think, was fate. He would, one way or another, eventually become King, even if he had made a totally different string of choices.

Morsul the Dark

08-11-2005, 09:16 AM

Here's how I look at it yes you have freedom of choice, but..... Have you ever done something even though you didn't want to and it came out right in the end?

What I'm saying is free will is an illusion there is no such thing we think there is but there isnt

edit:thats why i put probably both

I don't think there is free will but maybe im MADE to believe there is no free will

Feanor of the Peredhil

08-11-2005, 11:31 AM

Is there a rule against saying that Harry Potter changed my mind? I'll post the three paragraphs that did it. No worries though, it's not anything that'll spoil the book for you. Just babbling about that there prophecy. Although if you haven't read the fifth book, I guess it does spoil it. Oh well.
"Of course you would!" cried Dumbledore. "You see, the prophecy does not mean you have to do anything! But the prophecy caused Lord Voldemort to mark you as his equal... In other words, you are free to choose your way, quite free to turn your back on the prophecy! But Voldemort continues to set store by the prophecy. He will continue to hunt you... which makes it certain, really, that--"

"That one of us is going to end up killing the other." said Harry. "Yes."

But he understood at last what Dumbledore had been trying to tell him. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to fight a battle ot the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew-- and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents-- that there was all the difference in the world.
So as long as people believe in fate, they will continue to follow what their fate seems to be, dragging those who don't want anything to do with right along side. But you have the choice to turn tail and run, or to continue on.

Frodo did not want the Ring, even though Gandalf said he was "meant" to have it. He could have tossed it somewhere, but because of so many other people after it, his life would have ended up pretty miserably anyhow. That and his love for the Shire caused him to greet his fate with open arms (or at least moderately spread fingers) instead of waiting for it to track him down against his will.

I also got switched by Peter David's The Woad to Wuin. I can't give a direct quote (alas, libraries like their books returned), but Sharee makes it clear to Apropos that even if you can't escape your fate, every choice you make will affect it. Just because it's been a guarantee since you were born that you're going to fight the most powerful jerk to ever exist (for example) doesn't mean that your preparation and choices make it any less. You could go into the battle fully prepared and win, or you could go to battle kicking and screaming with four fingers missing off your left hand and no hair because it got burned off by a rampaging dragon you decided to steal from. Even though the big things might be set out, it's the little things that determine their outcome.

So yeah... based on everything except Lord of the Rings, I've just come to a new conclusion about them. How intriguing. Anyhow... 'f'it were possible, I'd switch my die-hard no to a die-hard maybe. :D