Misc. Questions

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

#1 Why do I think Beren to be a dummy? If he wanted all three of the Silmarils, he should've just taken the iron crown of Morgoth & back to Menegroth.

#2 the Silmaril says that after Finrod was slain, he was able to walk with Finarfin, his father again. Does this mean his soul was rehoused like Glorfindel?

#3 Did the house of Fingolfin & Finarfin (except Galadriel) swore the oath of Feanor?

#4 The passage below gives me the impression that the children of Finarfin were skilled in magic & enchantment.
By the arts of Felegund their own forms & faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs; The Silmarillion - Of Beren & Luthien

#5 If Huan had lived during the time of Sauron, would he be able to win against him with his ring on?

This was exactly what Luthien did when she disguised Beren & Huan. So did the children of Finarfin come near in magic?

[Formendacil]

#2 the Silmaril says that after Finrod was slain, he was able to walk with Finarfin, his father again. Does this mean his soul was rehoused like Glorfindel?

Yes. This was not a unique occurrence is Glorfindel's case. Many Elves were rehoused in Valinor. The uniqueness is that he returned to Middle-earth. Any Elves who had lived a good life were entitled to be rehoused, and it is clear that Finrod was one of the best and noblest of the Noldor. If Glorfindel was entitled to be rehoused, so was he.

#3 Did the house of Fingolfin & Finarfin (except Galadriel) swore the oath of Feanor?

No. Only Feanor and his seven sons swore the Oath. Hence, only they were bound by it. However, ALL the Noldor who went to Middle-Earth (incl. Galadriel) were under the Curse of Mandos, which is a seperate, though related, matter.

As for the other questions, they are not so straightforward, so I'll either hold back on answering, or give myself time to ferment some answers.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Yes. This was not a unique occurrence is Glorfindel's case. Many Elves were rehoused in Valinor. The uniqueness is that he returned to Middle-earth. Any Elves who had lived a good life were entitled to be rehoused, and it is clear that Finrod was one of the best and noblest of the Noldor. If Glorfindel was entitled to be rehoused, so was he.

If an elf is rehoused, he won't be as mighty as he/she was before, correct?

[Lord Melkor]

Hmmm, as far as I know an Elf will not lose power when he is rehoused. After all, death is not something an elf is supposed to experience, though the Marring of Arda and Morgoth evil works are responsible for the death of many Elves and the fading of their hroa. Therefore I believe that Elves will stay as strong as they were when they get rehoused and will not lose power, like Sauron did when he had to fashion a body for himself. Hmmm, come to think of it, it is debatable actually whether the act of creating a body costs any power, though the shape of the hroa and the time it takes to create are definitely correlated with the power someone possesses (Melkor and Sauron losing the ability to take fair form and the time Sauron took to create a new body after the fall of Barad-dur are good examples).

As for your other questions that haven't been answered yet:

#1 Why do I think Beren to be a dummy? If he wanted all three of the Silmarils, he should've just taken the iron crown of Morgoth & back to Menegroth.

Well, Morgoth was a big lad and I reckon that Iron Crown would've been quite a burden. Besides, Fate decreed that Luthien and Beren could only take one Silmaril (which is why the blade broke after Beren attempted to get another one)


#4 The passage below gives me the impression that the children of Finarfin were skilled in magic & enchantment.
Quote:
By the arts of Felegund their own forms & faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs;

The Silmarillion - Of Beren & Luthien

Maybe Finrod was a very good make-up artist? :p

#5 If Huan had lived during the time of Sauron, would he be able to win against him with his ring on?

Good question that one, really. My own bet would be no, unless Sauron decides to try his hand at another fight with Huan like the first one.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

#1 Why do I think Beren to be a dummy? If he wanted all three of the Silmarils, he should've just taken the iron crown of Morgoth & back to Menegroth.

#2 the Silmaril says that after Finrod was slain, he was able to walk with Finarfin, his father again. Does this mean his soul was rehoused like Glorfindel?

#3 Did the house of Fingolfin & Finarfin (except Galadriel) swore the oath of Feanor?

#4 The passage below gives me the impression that the children of Finarfin were skilled in magic & enchantment.
By the arts of Felegund their own forms & faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs; The Silmarillion - Of Beren & Luthien

#5 If Huan had lived during the time of Sauron, would he be able to win against him with his ring on?

This was exactly what Luthien did when she disguised Beren & Huan. So did the children of Finarfin come near in magic?

Hopefully other will asnwer my ever growing misc. questions. I've got a new one. Now after the War of Wrath, the xiles were allowed to return not to Valinor but in Avallone (Tol Eressea). What about for the remaining great Eldar? Surely they would not band Galadriel to dwell in Aman (Valimar) to let her be content with an isle (Eressea) in sight of Valinor? After all she was deemed greatest among the Eldar & had the power to intercede for Frodo & Gimli.

[Formendacil]

If an elf is rehoused, he won't be as mighty as he/she was before, correct?

Actually, no. Rehousing STRENGTHENS an elf, not weakens him.

In the case of Glorfindel, the reason for his great power in both the regular world and the spirit realm was due not only to being a Noldo of Valinor, but also due to his rehousing.

In the texts dealing with Elven reincarnation, Tolkien says that the reincarnated Elf is even more unlikely to be killed than a never-killed Elf, having a body even better suited to withstand turmoil, and having a greater "spiritual" presence. I believe that he also says that there are few or no known cases of reincarnated Elves being killed.

That said, a reincarnated Elf is the original Elf, in a near-identical, but pretty much perfect, copy of his (going with the male pronoun out of habit) previous self- and contains all the memories and skills that he had before. There is no reason to assume that the reincarnated Elf is any weaker.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Actually, no. Rehousing STRENGTHENS an elf, not weakens him.

In the case of Glorfindel, the reason for his great power in both the regular world and the spirit realm was due not only to being a Noldo of Valinor, but also due to his rehousing.

In the texts dealing with Elven reincarnation, Tolkien says that the reincarnated Elf is even more unlikely to be killed than a never-killed Elf, having a body even better suited to withstand turmoil, and having a greater "spiritual" presence. I believe that he also says that there are few or no known cases of reincarnated Elves being killed.

That said, a reincarnated Elf is the original Elf, in a near-identical, but pretty much perfect, copy of his (going with the male pronoun out of habit) previous self- and contains all the memories and skills that he had before. There is no reason to assume that the reincarnated Elf is any weaker.
The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell. So you're saying that a re-embodied elf is better than the great survivors such as Cirdan & Galadriel? 'Coz from what I get is that even these two have strong spiritual presences.

[Formendacil]

The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell. So you're saying that a re-embodied elf is better than the great survivors such as Cirdan & Galadriel? 'Coz from what I get is that even these two have strong spiritual presences.

Okay...

I am only going with what Tolkien wrote...

But remember that Cirdan and Galadriel were VERY important Elves- very potent Elves. Glorfindel, while powerful, is no Cirdan or Galadriel.

Perhaps I ought to have merely said that reincarnating an Elf merely doesn't WEAKEN him, and left it at that. However, the textual evidence left by Tolkien DOES suggest that a reincarnated Elf is stronger than his previous self.

However, if Glorfindel was $25 before his death, multiplying him to $50 doesn't make him worth more than the $60 Cirdan was to begin with, or the $65 Galadriel was...

NOTE: These are random numbers, being used as an example, and are not intended to be any sort of in-depth comparison of the relative powers of the great Eldar.

[Thurin Adanedhel]

The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell.

Glorfindel is not merely 'lingering' in Rivendell, he was sent back to aid Elrond and the others against Sauron. Wasn't he involved in the war against Angmar, and he was one of the few left who had power enough to withstand the nine ringwraiths, and Gandalf describes him as a very powerful elf-lord to Frodo and during the Council of Elrond. He may not have had the power of Galadriel or the wisdom of Cirdan but there are definite pointers and allusions to the power of Glorfindel.

[Elianna]

#1 Why do I think Beren to be a dummy? If he wanted all three of the Silmarils, he should've just taken the iron crown of Morgoth & back to Menegroth.

Tolkien addressed this in the text. 1) Angrist broke, and 2) when Angrist broke, a spark landed on Morgoth and he was about to wake up. And add to that that those Silmarilli were probably pretty heavy on the Black-Enemy's head, and he would have noticed if Beren took all that weight off.

The rest of the questions I cannot answer, since I've just finished Silm for my first time.

[daeron]

4 The passage below gives me the impression that the children of Finarfin were skilled in magic & enchantment.

Galadriel tells Sam there is no magic as the hobbits (or we) call it. Its only the arts which are not understood by the lesser folk that makes it seem like magic. May be it was Finrod's skill in disguises which Tolkien was refering to as 'arts'. It makes one wonder though whether there really was magic (as we see it) in Tolkien's works or is it just 'arts' misunderstood.

[mark12_30]

The Glorfindel of the 1st age was able to fight with a Balrog (a freakin Maia) but in the 3rd age, not much of that potency is felt. He's lingering in Rivendell. So you're saying that a re-embodied elf is better than the great survivors such as Cirdan & Galadriel? 'Coz from what I get is that even these two have strong spiritual presences..



But remember that Cirdan and Galadriel were VERY important Elves- very potent Elves. Glorfindel, while powerful, is no Cirdan or Galadriel.

Perhaps I ought to have merely said that reincarnating an Elf merely doesn't WEAKEN him, and left it at that. However, the textual evidence left by Tolkien DOES suggest that a reincarnated Elf is stronger than his previous self.


I am not sure that Glorfindel was any less important or more important than Galadriel or Celeborn. (Edit: I thoughthtat GLorfindel could withstand the nine but I was wrongo: )On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not with stand all the Nine at once. Gandalf spoke highly of him. (But then, Frodo faced the nine too.)

Regarding the fact that Glorfindel lingered in Rivendell-- well, strictly speaking, so did Elrond; and Galadriel and Celeborn 'lingered' in Lorien. Their power was behind-the-scenes, and I would expect Glorfindel's power to be also primarily "behind the scenes".

The bit I do remember about GLorfindel is that he was in both worlds; and Gandalf explained that as follows:

‘What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?’

‘Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’

‘I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?’

‘Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege, if things go on as they are going.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’

So the elves of Valinor have power against the invisible as well (they can see them)?
May I ask from what house does Glorfindel hail? He's not one of the house Finwe or Olwe or Ingwe.


I've got new questions:

#1 I've got a new one. Now after the War of Wrath, the xiles were allowed to return not to Valinor but in Avallone (Tol Eressea). What about for the remaining great Eldar? Surely they would not band Galadriel to dwell in Aman (Valimar) to let her be content with an isle (Eressea) in sight of Valinor? After all she was deemed greatest among the Eldar & had the power to intercede for Frodo & Gimli.

#2 Had Gandalf not fallen with the Balrog, what gift would he have received from Galadriel in Lorien?

#3 What race did Dior belong to? An Elf or a mortal?

#4 Will the Doom of Mandos (fading) apply to Thranduil & his subjects?

#5 In your personal opinion, do you think the Elves who remained in Valinor during the turmoils of Morgoth & Sauron in ME became mightier than those who lingered & endured their malice?

# How was Glorfindel able to slay a Balrog (Maia) & Finrod can't even scratch Sauron?

[Formendacil]

I am not sure that Glorfindel was any less important or more important than Galadriel or Celeborn. (Edit: I thoughthtat GLorfindel could withstand the nine but I was wrongo: ) Gandalf spoke highly of him. (But then, Frodo faced the nine too.)

Well, I'm not tied to that interpretation myself- I was just arguing with the acceptance of that point of view to show that one's strength is not diminished (in Elven cases) by death, upon reincarnation, but can be, in fact, strengthened.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

#1 I've got a new one. Now after the War of Wrath, the xiles were allowed to return not to Valinor but in Avallone (Tol Eressea). What about for the remaining great Eldar? Surely they would not band Galadriel to dwell in Aman (Valimar) to let her be content with an isle (Eressea) in sight of Valinor? After all she was deemed greatest among the Eldar & had the power to intercede for Frodo & Gimli.

#2 Had Gandalf not fallen with the Balrog, what gift would he have received from Galadriel in Lorien?

#3 What race did Dior belong to? An Elf or a mortal?

#4 Will the Doom of Mandos (fading) apply to Thranduil & his subjects?

#5 In your personal opinion, do you think the Elves who remained in Valinor during the turmoils of Morgoth & Sauron in ME became mightier than those who lingered & endured their malice?

#6 How was Glorfindel able to slay a Balrog (Maia) & Finrod can't even scratch Sauron?

New Questions:

#7 Was Sauron more powerful than the Balrog of Moria? Could he have enslaved it to his allegiance?

#8 If Luthien (w/out Huan's aid) & Sauron was pitted against eachother, who would be the victor?

#9 If the Balrog was unleashed & came to Lothlorien, Would the Galadhrim surivive (along with the power of Galadriel)?

[Formendacil]

#7 Was Sauron more powerful than the Balrog of Moria? Could he have enslaved it to his allegiance?

Yes, Sauron was more powerful than the Balrog- indeed, more than all the Balrogs. As it says in the Valaquenta:

Among those of his [Morgoth's] servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself.

Whether or not Sauron could have enslaved the Balrog to his allegiance, that is a question that cannot be satisfactorily answered. The Balrog, while weaker, is still a mighty Umaia in its own right. Personally, I should say that Sauron- with the Ring- would likely have been able to do so, but that is just my gut feeling.

#8 If Luthien (w/out Huan's aid) & Sauron was pitted against eachother, who would be the victor?

#9 If the Balrog was unleashed & came to Lothlorien, Would the Galadhrim surivive (along with the power of Galadriel)?

Since Tolkien never gave us a Power Comparisons Table, it's really impossible to say on either of these questions. Like any Alternative Storyline, it is entirely up to conjecture. In both cases, I'd say it would be a close fight either way.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Formendacil,

I checked Wikipedia for Sauron & here's what they said about him:

but in secret Sauron forged the One Ring in Mount Doom to rule the Elvish rings, investing most of his own power into the Ring as he forged it. By doing so, he became more powerful than his master Morgoth at the end of the First Age, whose fëa ("soul" or "spirit"), while stronger, was dispersed into the matter of Arda. When Sauron put on the One Ring and tried to dominate the Elves, they resisted, and Sauron came upon them in the War of the Elves and Sauron and, had it not been for the intervention of Númenor, might have defeated them
So he became mightier than Morgoth when he wore the One Ring right?

[solarisa]

maybe the crown was too heavy for beren? maybe he was too fascinated by the silmarils, therefore only extracting them? or maybe, no one will know...

hmm...elves were just like humans; how do you get the magical stuff in there(about finarfin??) :confused:

[Formendacil]

So he became mightier than Morgoth when he wore the One Ring right?

Morgoth at the end of the First Age, yes.

As I said, I think it likely that Sauron- wearing the Ring- COULD have asserted control over the Balrog, but I don't KNOW that. After all, the Balrogs were under Morgoth's control from the very beginning, and the reason that Morgoth was so weakened by the late First Age was the dissemination of his power throughout the physical matter of Arda. Perhaps some of that power was imbued into the Balrogs- binding them to his will?

Anyway, that's all speculation on my part, and not speculation to which I am greatly attached, either.

[Alcarillo]

hmm...elves were just like humans; how do you get the magical stuff in there(about finarfin??) :confused:

I suppose what seemed like an ordinary cosmetics routine to the elves must've seemed like magic to Beren and other mortals. This reminds me of a Star Trek episode, in which a primitive species spots the Enterprise and considers its technology to be magic and ends up worshipping Picard. (wierd analogy, I know) Anyways, substitute Felegund and his make-up skill for Picard and his futuristic technology and the primitive species for Mortals and you can see what I mean.

#4 Will the Doom of Mandos (fading) apply to Thranduil & his subjects?

Thranduil and his subjects are Moriquendi, so no.

#5 In your personal opinion, do you think the Elves who remained in Valinor during the turmoils of Morgoth & Sauron in ME became mightier than those who lingered & endured their malice?

Interesting question. I think that the Elves in Middle-earth would've stood up better in the face of evil than elves from Valinor, who for so long knew no evil or suffering.

[brim]

I have read a book like that before. It had several different things from the future and they were refered to as magic from the more primitive people's point of veiw. Interesting concept really.

[Thinlómien]

# How was Glorfindel able to slay a Balrog (Maia) & Finrod can't even scratch Sauron?

Because
* Sauron was more powerful than the balrog
* Glorfindel was in better condition in the battle than Finrod, who had laid in a prison for days, when he met his enemy
* Glorfindel got help from Thorondor and he would have lost without the help of the eagle

[Thinlómien]

#5 In your personal opinion, do you think the Elves who remained in Valinor during the turmoils of Morgoth & Sauron in ME became mightier than those who lingered & endured their malice?

Maybe they were mightier in other matters and less mighty on other matters? F.g. they would have more "light of Aman" in them, but they wouldn't be so physically hardened or so good stalkers. I think it may work like evolution; they get better in things they need in their every day life and poorer in things they don't use. And th light of Aman probably fades in the ME elves.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Maybe they were mightier in other matters and less mighty on other matters? F.g. they would have more "light of Aman" in them, but they wouldn't be so physically hardened or so good stalkers. I think it may work like evolution; they get better in things they need in their every day life and poorer in things they don't use. And th light of Aman probably fades in the ME elves.
there was no longer this "light" in Aman. It disappeared when the two Trees perished.

[Gurthang]

Still, Thinlómien has a point there. The Elves in Aman had no worries about attack or betrayal, so they could concentrate on building beautiful wonders or mastering arts and song. On the other hand, the Noldor in Middle-Earth would have spent much more time studying warfare and the use of arms rather than concentrating on making less useful but more spectacular things.

With that in mind, I would say that the Elves of Aman were better at building beauty, singing, art, and understanding of animals/plants. The Elves of Middle-Earth would have had much superior knowledge of building strength, warfare, smithery, and negotiating. I would think that things such as mining, hunting, and writing would have been similar in both places.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Another question:

When Galadriel says "Needless were the deeds of Gandalf. We do not know yet his full purpose," do you think Gandalf knew about Galadriel's secret lust for the ring & intended her to face her test? And what would happen if she failed & took the ring, would not the Valar hinder him from returning to ME?

And this lament of Galadriel (during the departure from Lothlorien) of Valimar being lost to those in the east is quite contradictory when she declares "I will go into the West & remain Galadriel." Could Gandalf have told her that Varda had answred her prayers?

[Formendacil]

Another question:

When Galadriel says "Needless were [missing words, I think: none of] the deeds of Gandalf. We do not know yet his full purpose," do you think Gandalf knew about Galadriel's secret lust for the ring & intended her to face her test? And what would happen if she failed & took the ring, would not the Valar hinder him from returning to ME?

And this lament of Galadriel (during the departure from Lothlorien) of Valimar being lost to those in the east is quite contradictory when she declares "I will go into the West & remain Galadriel." Could Gandalf have told her that Varda had answred her prayers?

I would attribute it, myself, to a more mundane answer. I would say that Galadriel agreed with Gandalf that Moria was the only way to pass the Mountains. The Redhorn Pass, as was already clear, was impassible. The High Pass by Rivendell would have meant a month or three of delay- perhaps Galadriel's mirror told her that they didn't have that time. Likewise with detouring to Gondor. As for the remaining option, the Gap of Rohan- we all know about the danger of Saruman, but perhaps the danger was greater than we think. Perhaps companies like Ugluk's were being sent northwards towards Moria? If so, that's another thing that Galadriel could have meant.

In any case, in this situation, the simplest answer would seem to be that Galadriel felt that Gandalf was justified in leading them through Moria, and that his death was not wasted, for the Ring still continued towards its defeat. Galadriel strikes me, for some reason, as a person who would approve of dying for a cause.

Hmm... must be the Silmarillion working on me...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I have another question (s):

#1 How were the Numenorians (who were corrupted by Sauron) able to reach the shores of Aman if the Valar had set the enchanted isles abroad?

#2 From what royal house does Glorfindel belong (& why does he have golden hair)?

#3 Are Tom & Goldberry maiar?

#4 Are Vanyar's greater than the Noldor or are they just Manew & Varda's favorite?

#5 How many Royal houses of Noldor had Golden hair? I know Finarfin's house was golden-haired but what of Fingolfin's & Feanor's?

#6 Did the 3 elvish guardians wear their rings when Isildur still bore it?

#7 Approximately how many years were the Three utilized until their fading?

[Formendacil]

I have another question (s):

Goody! I like these...

#1 How were the Numenorians (who were corrupted by Sauron) able to reach the shores of Aman if the Valar had set the enchanted isles abroad?

Presumeably, those were removed after the Valar lifted the Ban against the Noldor, and started accepting them back to Valinor.

#2 From what royal house does Glorfindel belong (& why does he have golden hair)?

Glorfindel isn't royal- at least in so far as we know. Glorfindel was the Lord of the House of the Golden Flower one of the twelve or thirteen "clans" of Gondolin. As such, he was a Noldorin Elf-lord, but not- as far as we know- at all royal.

#3 Are Tom & Goldberry maiar?

Who knows? I don't...

I believe there are several threads that debate the merits of the arguments for and against.

#4 Are Vanyar's greater than the Noldor or are they just Manew & Varda's favorite?

I'd say that they are just the favourites... Tolkien never really says that any sort of elf is "greater" than another- just stronger in certain fields. For example, the Noldor are the greatest of craftsmen, the Teleri are the great sailors...

#5 How many Royal houses of Noldor had Golden hair? I know Finarfin's house was golden-haired but what of Fingolfin's & Feanor's?

As far as I know, the only Noldorin royals with golden hair were Finarfin, his son Finrod, his daughter Galadriel, and Idril daughter of Turgon, who's mother was Elenwe of the Vanyar.

#6 Did the 3 elvish guardians wear their rings when Isildur still bore it?

I don't think Tolkien ever says, but I would imagine it was some time before they started to wear them. Just a guess, though...

#7 Approximately how many years were the Three utilized until their fading?

Obviously, this question is tied to the previous one. However, if we assume that the bearers started wearing them around the time Isildur died, then it would be just over 3000 years.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

^ Hmm... in the narration of FOTR, Cate says "And for 2 1/2 thousand years the ring passed out of all knowledge... the ring brought to gollum unnatural long life & for 500 years it poisoned his mind." so they still had an extra hundred years or two?

new question:

What exactly where those "watchers" (that Sam conquered with the star-glass) of the tower of Cirith Ungol? Are they wizards, orcs, or maia?

[Alcarillo]

What exactly where those "watchers" (that Sam conquered with the star-glass) of the tower of Cirith Ungol? Are they wizards, orcs, or maia?

They seem as though they are fëar Sauron must've trapped inside those statues. I doubt that they are orcs, as Tolkien ddescribes them as being carved of stone. It is possible that they are lesser Maiar, but I doubt that too.

[Gurthang]

The Watchers could also have been fell spirits trapped inside the stone. Somewhat like Dragons had fell spirits in them, and that was why they could daunt people with their gaze. The Watchers may have had similar characteristics, but could obviously not cast spells like Dragons.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

There seems to be an inconsistency in the story of Lorien. They say that before Galadriel came & ruled there, Amroth built his house in the trees. Does this mean that the mallorns have already been there before Galadriel's arrival, because if I'm not mistaken, they only grew when Galadriel came there & used Nenya.

[Joy]

It could have been any type of tree. There were other besides Mallorn in Lorien.

You have some wonderful questions there Gourthar.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Another question:

What the hell is this Seat of Amon Hen? Why does it have powers & abilities akin to the Palantir? Who built it & endowed it with such powers?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You can find that answer in The Lord of the Rings without too much trouble.

'Behold Tol Brandir!' said Aragorn, pointing south to the tall peak. 'Upon the left stands Amon Lhaw, and upon the right is Amon Hen, the Hills of Hearing and of Sight. In the days of the great kings there were high seats upon them, and watch was kept there.

The Fellowship of the Ring, p.410

Then later.

He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor.

The Fellowship of the Ring, p.416

An earlier draft of this passage is more obvious in its meaning:

But also he sat now upon the seat of Sight which the men of Númenor had made.

HoME VII: The Treason of Isengard, p.374


From what Frodo experiences of its powers in The Fellowship of the Ring, I would guess that the seat simply allows one who sits in it to see widely, but probably not in the same way as the Palantíri. I seems as though the seat of Seeing simply makes the world seem smaller rather than allowing one to view distant events in detail or communicate over large distances. There is also a suggestion that the Ring enhances the seat's powers, which could account for the similarity.

The reference to a watch being kept on Amon Lhaw and Amon Hen suggests that on the two hills one sentry would listen and another look for danger to the Númenorean realms in exile, which I would guess is the reason for the properties described in FotR. Don't forget that the Númenoreans, with whom Tolkien associates the two seats, were almost as skilled as the Elves in such work.

[Lalaith]

I believe, although I don't have the texts to hand, that the three rings were made, and presumably used and worn, before the Alliance. The making of the Three seemed to coincide with the unmasking of Sauron by Celebrimbor at Eregion.
As for this:
On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not with stand all the Nine at once
I think we cannot read too many "power comparisons" in to this comment, between the various elves in LotR - it must be taken in the context of what the reader does and does not know at this point in the narrative.
At the point in the story that Gandalf says this, we have not yet met Galadriel and know very little of Cirdan. Elrond is clearly not going to leave Rivendell and so there is no question of him confronting the Nine on the road.

[Joy]

Also, on the comment of Glorfindel's strenght, I am sure that given the timing of this narative, he wouldn't show his full strenght.

Like Gandalf, being a maiar, had been given restraints concerning the amount of power that he could show forth - maybe Glorfindel had some of these restraints given to him.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I believe, although I don't have the texts to hand, that the three rings were made, and presumably used and worn, before the Alliance. The making of the Three seemed to coincide with the unmasking of Sauron by Celebrimbor at Eregion.
I've always wondered the same thing. It was hundreds of years before the One could be completed & the Three have already been completed. Who bore the Three before Gil-Galad & Galadriel? Or perhaps Celebrimbor hoarded it.

[Legolas]

Who bore the Three before Gil-Galad & Galadriel?

No one.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

No one.
That's impossible. It specifically says that when Sauron chanted the incantations (i.e. One Ring to rule them all...), the Elves (who were these "elves") became aware of him & took their rings off. Surely that would imply that somebody held the Three before Gil-Galad & Galadriel. Galadriel was in Lorinand & Gil-Galad was in Lindon.

[Joy]

Celebrimbor made the 3 rings and gave them to Gil-galad, Cirdan, and to Galadriel.

At the time that Sauron had made his ring, even though they were apart, they could sense the power of his and took theirs off. They also had means of Osanwe Kenta. They could have spoken this way.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Celebrimbor made the 3 rings and gave them to Gil-galad, Cirdan, and to Galadriel.

At the time that Sauron had made his ring, even though they were apart, they could sense the power of his and took theirs off. They also had means of Osanwe Kenta. They could have spoken this way.
No no. Clebrimbor along with the smithies(under the influence of Sauron) revolted against the rulership of Celeborn & Galadriel resulting to Galadriel's departure for Lorinand. At this time Celebrimbor began secretly making the Three & Sauron went to Mordor to fulfill his scheme. By the time Sauron finished the One & began saying the deplorable rhyme, it was implied that the Elves became aware of them & so Celebrimbor went to Lorinand (after finding out Sauron's deception) to take counsel with Galadriel & it was at this time that she recieved Nenya. That would mean there were other three bearers of Three who "sensed" Sauron's deception.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Well, there are roughly 103 years of which we have no account. The three were made in S.A. c.1590; Celebrimbor discovered Sauron's plot in S.A. c.1600, and the Three were hidden in S.A. 1693, so I can see how this question arises. Legolas and Joy have given you the best answer that the books can supply, though. I can't claim to have made an exhaustive study, but I'm fairly sure that never in any of the writings available to us does Tolkien mention by name any keepers of the Three before Gil-galad, Círdan and Galadriel. This includes the published letters, the early drafts of LotR and all post-LotR versions of the Silmarillion. What Tolkien does say, however, is that:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But in the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad, Galdriel and Círdan.

[The Return of the King, Appendix B, p.365 (first edition). My italics]

As for the discovery of the plot, the Tale of Years has this to say:
c.1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

[Ibid, p.364. My italics]

Those are the facts as matters stand. My guess is that Tolkien means what he says and that the Three were given first to the named parties. Note that no mention is made of when this first giving took place: it could easily have been when the Rings were hidden, which would only mean that Celebrimbor held the Three in his charge for just over a century. Nor is there any particular reason why at first the rings should have been given to different people rather than being stored in a treasury: they were separated in order to make it more difficult for Sauron to acquire them. Since Celebrimbor was the ruler of Eregion, the smiths thereof being subject to him as such, it does not seem altogether unlikely that he should have been the Rings' original keeper. This would explain why in the Tale of Years it is he who is specifically mentioned as the uncoverer of the plot. Also it seems unlikely that he would entrust the Three to anyone but the named keepers once Sauron's plan became known to him, so the questionable period is only ten years: a short enough time for an Elf. If there were any anonymous early keepers then there is no record of them. In history, that is as close as one can get to being nobody.

[Thinlómien]

Well this is a stupid question, but did Maedhros have red hair? Is it mentioned anywhere? I've always imagined him with dark hair, but every single piece of artwork about him shows him with red hair. So do these artists know more than I do, or do they just have a different picture about his haircolor?

[Joy]

Maedhros was nicknamed "Russandol," or "copper top" by his mother Nerdanel.

[Joy]

Speaking of red-heads, it seems that the twins Amrod and Amras were red-headed also.

Amras's mother name was Ambarussa - which means "russet-top" Amrod's mother name was Ambarto.

According to The History of Middle Earth, Vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle Earth, the twins may even have been identical. Below is an extended quotation which reveals Tolkien’s explanation for their names, which were originally Ambarto (which was then changed again to Umbarto and back again) and Ambarussa.


"These two names of [the] twins (i-Wenyn) were evidently meant to begin similarly. Ambarussa ‘top-russet’ must have referred to hair: the first and last of Nerdanel’s children had the reddish hair of her kin. Around the name Ambarto [> Umbarto] - which one might expect to begin with an element of the same sense at (Ambarussa) - much legend and discussion gathered. The most authentic seems to be thus:

The two twins were both red-haired. Nerdanel gave them both the name Ambarussa - for they were much alike and remained so while they lived. When Fëanor begged that their names should at least be different Nerdanel looked strange, and after a while said: ‘Then let one be called [Ambarto >] Umbarto, but which, time will decide.’

[HerenIstarion]

Older thread: Redheads of Middle Earth (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=279)

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Another Question:

How did the One Ring reach all the way back to the Gladden Fields?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Come on: this isn't the quiz room. The Gladden Fields were where the massacre of Isildur and his men took place. The Ring simply slipped off his finger as he tried to swim the Anduin, then lay on the riverbed until Déagol found it. There's no mystery there whatsoever.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Come on: this isn't the quiz room. The Gladden Fields were where the massacre of Isildur and his men took place. The Ring simply slipped off his finger as he tried to swim the Anduin, then lay on the riverbed until Déagol found it. There's no mystery there whatsoever.
Why was he venturing in the Gladden Fields?

[Son of Númenor]

From Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed. Taking it therefore he returned at first to Minas Anor, and there planted the White Tree in memory of his brother Anárion. But soon he departed, and after he had given counsel to Meneldil, his brother's son, and had committed to him the realm of the south, he bore away the Ring, to be an heirloom of his house, and marched north from Gondor by the way that Elendil had come; and he forsook the South Kingdom, for he purposed to take up his father's realm in Eriador, far from the shadow of the Black Land.

But Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains; and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, nigh to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden Fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, deeming that all his foes were overthrown. There well nigh all his people were slain, and among them were his three elder sons, Elendur, Aratan, and Ciryon; but his wife and his youngest son, Valandil, he had left in Imladris when he went to the war. Isildur himself escaped by means of the Ring, for when he wore it he was invisible to all eyes; but the Orcs hunted him by scent and slot, until he came to the River and plunged in. There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam, and it was lost in the water. Then the Orcs saw him as he laboured in the stream, and they shot him with many arrows, and that was his end. Only three of his people came ever back over the mountains after long wandering; and of these one was Ohtar his esquire, to whose keeping he had given the shards of the sword of Elendil.(emphasis mine)

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

It is said that Galadriel's longing for the sea became so strong that she & Celeborn decided to dwell in Dol Amroth. This has been several years since the the One has been lost deep in the Anduin. It was only after the time when the first shadows of Mirkwood were felt, & at the awakening of the Balrog that she & Celeborn decided to dwell permanently in Lorinand. So my question is, has she been wielding the power of Nenya (like say in Dol Amroth) even before she came to Lorien? For it was said that Nenya increased this yearning & was the reason why she dwelt in Dol Amroth. And when did Elrond start using his ring?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

- Does anybody know if Sauron with the ring became mightier to the point where his strength could rival a Vala, or did it just augment his power to the point of surpassing Eönwë?

- In the War of Wrath, did the Valar only send the Noldor & Vanyar? Did they not come themselves?

- What exactly is Ancalagon? I know he is a winged Dragon but was he a maia because it seemed like he was the most powerful out of Gothmog, Sauron, & Glaurung?

[Marky Lazer]

Were the Nazgul immortal?

[Marky Lazer]

Maybe it's interesting for anyone, but to provide you with the answer to my own question:

I can't think of any point where this is addressed directly, but I think it's possible to have a fairly good guess at the answer.

In Tolkien's universe, mortality is a special gift from Eru, and it's outside the power even of the Valar to remove that gift. If the Valar can't achieve this, then certainly it should be impossible for Sauron to make a mortal being into an immortal one. This ties in, I think, with Bilbo's comments about the long life granted him by the Ring - 'Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.' (The Fellowship of the Ring I 1). In other words, his mortal lifespan has been unnaturally extended, but he's still a mortal being (as stated explicitly in Tolkien's letters).

I think the same effect must apply to the Nazgûl, too (and also Gollum, of course). The Rings of Power clearly granted a greatly extended lifespan to those under their power, but they seem to have remained essentially mortal.

I hope that's of some help.

Kind regards
Mark Fisher

[The 1,000 Reader]

To answer old questions, Sauron is not more powerful than a balrog. He may have been more evil, but that does not mean he was more powerful. He may have been great because he was evil, but a balrog would stomp him into the ground.

Besides, when was the last time you saw a balrog lose every fight it entered, with one of the losses being due to its own stupidity? ;) That is proof enough.(No, Gothmog wasn't being stupid when he was killed if I recall correctly.)

Sauron may have beaten Huan if he didn't pull any stupid mistakes like he did in the Tale of Beren and Luthien.

The nazgul were not immortal, they just couldn't die. They were like people who could get tired but could never fall asleep in a sence. Immortality is not like that.

[Formendacil]

To answer old questions, Sauron is not more powerful than a balrog. He may have been more evil, but that does not mean he was more powerful. He may have been great because he was evil, but a balrog would stomp him into the ground.

Back up your argument, please. I am curious as to why you this... The following is more conjecture than definite evidence:

Besides, when was the last time you saw a balrog lose every fight it entered, with one of the losses being due to its own stupidity? ;) That is proof enough.(No, Gothmog wasn't being stupid when he was killed if I recall correctly.)

Sauron may have beaten Huan if he didn't pull any stupid mistakes like he did in the Tale of Beren and Luthien.[/QUOTE]

Furthermore, how do you square that with this, from the "Valaquenta":

But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Overall, the passage could be used to support your thesis that Sauron was merely "more evil" than the Balrogs- but it appears to me to also be a clear statement as to the greater power of Sauron.

Furthermore, Sauron is called the "Lieutenant of Melkor"- and had the command of Angband before the breaking of Utumno.

Again, I'd like to hear some evidence for your rather loud statement there...

[Thinlómien]

I'm along the same lines with Formendacil. Gandalf won a balrog, but said he didn't have enough power to challenge Sauron. (Well that was partly because Sauron had such armies and the nazgûl and such...) But anyway I think it's made quite clear that Sauron is more powerful than balrogs. Elves and dwarves slayed many balrogs in the First Age, but I can't imagine an elf or an dwarf warrior defeating Sauron. (About that Luthien+Huan incident it is proved that Sauron made a mistake and so on.)

[Bergil]

The Balrog DID work for Sauron. Sauron offered to give the dwarves back Moria, so the balrog would leave if he was told. Granted, it could have been a bluff, but if Gandalf feared that Smaug would follow Sauron and reacted, but didn't set uot to do something about the balrog, it implies that the balrog was weaker then Smaug. I hope this helps.

[Formendacil]

The Balrog DID work for Sauron. Sauron offered to give the dwarves back Moria, so the balrog would leave if he was told. Granted, it could have been a bluff, but if Gandalf feared that Smaug would follow Sauron and reacted, but didn't set uot to do something about the balrog, it implies that the balrog was weaker then Smaug. I hope this helps.

A nice idea, but I think you may be putting your own slant on things...

The fact that Sauron offered to give back Moria is not at all conclusive. As you meantion, it might well be a bluff- and that's what I would call it. Sauron would not want the Dwarves to recolonise Moria in any case, because it would mean a weakening of his control.

Furthermore, I highly doubt that any Balrog would be weaker than Smaug. Maybe less well-armoured, but a Balrog is much more ancient, much more terrifying. Look at the Elves of Mirkwood- they avoid Smaug, but they remain in the neighbourhood, trade with the Lakemen, and live their lives as usual. Although dragons are dangerous, and not to be taken lightly, as the tale of Scatha proves- and for that matter, Smaug's own death and that of Glaurung- they are still vulnerable to mortal attack.

Balrogs, on the other hand, simply evoke terror. Legolas, in Moria, goes so far as to loose his weapons and shout in terror. Celeborn, on hearing what Durin's Bane was, is ready to throw the Fellowship out just on that score. Furthermore, the killing of Balrogs seems to be out of a mortal's league. Setting aside the early version of the Fall of Gondolin, where Tuor chops them down like saplings, it always seems to take an Elf with the Light of Valinor in his blood or an Istari to take down a Balrog.

Which is, I would say, another piece of evidence for a Balrog's greater power. Gandalf wasn't able to unveil his Maiarin power against Smaug, but had to resort to Thorin and Co with Bilbo, whereas he seems to have gone "uncloaked" to take down the Balrog once they fell off the bridge. In the case of Gandalf the White, anyway, his power seems most unveiled when fighting his strongest opponents, namely the Nazgul.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Back up your argument, please. I am curious as to why you this... The following is more conjecture than definite evidence:

Besides, when was the last time you saw a balrog lose every fight it entered, with one of the losses being due to its own stupidity? ;) That is proof enough.(No, Gothmog wasn't being stupid when he was killed if I recall correctly.)

Sauron may have beaten Huan if he didn't pull any stupid mistakes like he did in the Tale of Beren and Luthien.

Furthermore, how do you square that with this, from the "Valaquenta":



Overall, the passage could be used to support your thesis that Sauron was merely "more evil" than the Balrogs- but it appears to me to also be a clear statement as to the greater power of Sauron.

Furthermore, Sauron is called the "Lieutenant of Melkor"- and had the command of Angband before the breaking of Utumno.Again, I'd like to hear some evidence for your rather loud statement there...[/QUOTE]



The reason I believe a balrog would defeat Sauron is that Sauron, for all his names and titles, never won a single fight he entered. No offense to any Sauron fans out there, but after his screw-up in the Tale of Beren and Luthien, I doubt he was as great a captain or being everyone made him out to be. If anything, that event proved that he was incompetent and inexperienced. Morgoth also had no other dominating servants. He needed his balrogs on the battlefield, so he had no other choice. I doubt Morgoth would make an orc the leader of Angband.

Sauron was mighty in lore, not combat. Lieutenant is not the highest rank military wise. Also, if I am not mistaken, one reason Gandalf defeated the balrog was because it fell into the water, thus weakening it. Like someone said before, a reason Gandalf would not fight Sauron is the armies of Mordor and the nazgul. Gandalf may be a maia, but he isn't Superman.

A balrog is a great and powerful creature. Balrogs are warriors. Balrogs kill everything they see. If Sauron fought, say, Merry, he would laugh and make the fight linger, toying with Merry. If a balrog fought Pippin, for example, the balrog would just stomp him into the ground or slice him with its sword in one second. Who would you want to fight? A guy with many titles and an ego, or a giant, powerful creature that would kill you in a heartbeat?

This is just my opinion, and I am sorry if it offends you. If this topic should be continued, it should have its own thread, so that we don't end up ruining this thread.

[Formendacil]

The reason I believe a balrog would defeat Sauron is that Sauron, for all his names and titles, never won a single fight he entered. No offense to any Sauron fans out there, but after his screw-up in the Tale of Beren and Luthien, I doubt he was as great a captain or being everyone made him out to be. If anything, that event proved that he was incompetent and inexperienced. Morgoth also had no other dominating servants. He needed his balrogs on the battlefield, so he had no other choice. I doubt Morgoth would make an orc the leader of Angband.

Sauron was mighty in lore, not combat. Lieutenant is not the highest rank military wise. Also, if I am not mistaken, one reason Gandalf defeated the balrog was because it fell into the water, thus weakening it. Like someone said before, a reason Gandalf would not fight Sauron is the armies of Mordor and the nazgul. Gandalf may be a maia, but he isn't Superman.

A balrog is a great and powerful creature. Balrogs are warriors. Balrogs kill everything they see. If Sauron fought, say, Merry, he would laugh and make the fight linger, toying with Merry. If a balrog fought Pippin, for example, the balrog would just stomp him into the ground or slice him with its sword in one second. Who would you want to fight? A guy with many titles and an ego, or a giant, powerful creature that would kill you in a heartbeat?

This is just my opinion, and I am sorry if it offends you. If this topic should be continued, it should have its own thread, so that we don't end up ruining this thread.

Ah, no offence, just disagreement.

You say that Balrogs are great and powerful creatures. I say that Sauron could have been if he wanted. He retained the power to change his form until the Fall of Numenor- whereas the Balrogs were bound in their shadow and flame.

What's to say that Sauron couldn't have made himself that way?

You say that Sauron never won a fight. True, but you'll notice that he GROWS in his knowledge about how to fight and who to fight. Sauron is a born survivor. It took Three Ages to kill him. If a Balrog loses a fight, the Balrog is done for.

You say that Sauron is smart, not strong. I say that smarts is strength.

I will admit that Sauron is less of a natural warrior than a Balrog- but I do not for one minute think that in a one-on-one fight that the Balrog would win, especially at the height of his power in the late Second Age. Sauron's ability to change form could have endowed him with something easily Balrog-equivalent (and Gandalf was able to fight the Balrog in Old Man form). Furthermore, Sauron's greater smarts would likely win through.

As my final argument, I present Sauron's death.

Yes, that's right, his death- the "death" at the hands of Gil-galad and Elendil.

"But... but... you say," Sauron was DEFEATED by them- what proof is that?"

I'll tell you what proof.

Morgoth's power was greater than any of his servants'- that is why, even after his power had been dispersed throughout the entire matter of Arda that he was still more powerful than pretty much any challenger (although, as the Host of the West showed, not quite). After his casting into the void, and the total separation from the power dispersed in Arda, he remained a complete person. Sauron, similarly, had a spirit great enough that even with the destruction of the Ring, containing the greater portion of his power, he remained "as an impotent spirit", so to speak.

There is never any similar connection made for a Balrog. Kill them and they're gone- just like those other, less-than-Sauron Maiar, the Istari.

[Gothmog]

I think it's wrong to decide how powerful a being is by stuying the battles he/she/it might have won. Just look at the fight between Fingolfin and Morgoth. Fingolfin challenged Morgoth and scared him. Morgoth didn't want to leave his safe halls of Angband, but was forced to. Then the battle began and Fingolfin attacked Morgoth time after time. Seven wounds he inflicted and Morgoth cried out every time. Then, being a bit tired, Fingolfin stumbled and was then crushed. But what if he hadn't stumbled? Does the fact that Fingolfin was equal to a Vala, the greatest of them, in battle imply that he was the equally powerful as Melkor? I think not.

So even if the outcome of a fight between for example Sauron and a Balrog could be predicted, that tells us nothing of how powerful either creature is. That depends on the meaning we put into the word "powerful".

If you want my opinion, I'd say Balrogs is greater in might, on the battlefield. They're one of the most terrifying creatures of Morgoth. But Sauron is more powerful in other ways. A Balrog is not fit to command armies, nor would thay have the power to snare men in nets of treachery or make powerful items like the One. Also, I think of Sauron as a great master of witchcraft. So to decide who's most powerful or mighty, we must decide what characteristics we're looking for.

[Marky Lazer]

Is the staff of Gandalf magical or not? Or is it a normal wooden staff, and comes the magic from the wizard himself?

[Gurthang]

That's an excellant question, Marky Lazer. Personally, I believe that Gandalf's staff, as well as the staves of the other wizards, were basically a tool. In the hands of the right person, it can be deadly, but with no skill to use it, it is useless. A wizard without a staff is not necessarily less powerful, but it is more difficult to transfer his power to reality(which would be called 'magic').

The staff is also a symbol, used to denote power and rank. The breaking of the staff is a way of saying someone has lost their rank or standing.

If you want to know more, try these:

Magic in Middle-Earth (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11558)
Gandalf's Staff (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=494)

Look especially at Essex's post (#27) in Gandalf's Staff. It's got a lot of good info.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Gurthang hit the nail right on the head. Good job. Losing rank is not always bad. Gandalf's staff broke before he fought the balrog and that was because he was unleashing his power.

Gothmog, saying Sauron was more of a witchcraft person is fairly accurate. The problem was that his ego made him think that he was a warrior as well. Combat wasn't his strong point and his ego would most likely prevent him from making himself a greater form, such as a troll or a creature akin to a balrog. Like you also said, it is hard to judge a character's skill or greatness by a fight. I'll share my comments on these things when a thread is made for them. Until then, let the questions continue.

[Marky Lazer]

Who awoke Durin's Bane?

Where it Durin's mithril diggers?
Or was it Sauron?

In Appendix A III (Durin's Folk) of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien hints that the Dwarves may in fact not have awoken the Balrog, but that instead it was the growing power of Sauron in nearby Dol Guldur that returned it to life. If this is true, then the Dwarves did no more than release the creature from its subterranean tomb. It is certainly notable that Durin's Bane appeared in the same year that the Nazgûl returned to Mordor.

"Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear."
Words of Glóin from
The Lord of the Rings 2 II The Council of Elrond

[The 1,000 Reader]

Possibly both of the two. The balrog may have even been awoken by the Witch-King while he was fleeing Angmar, but this is a topic for another day.

[Eonwe]

ok here's a question that has always bothered me. in the world of middle-earth, "magic" and "sorcery" are words the Hobbits uses to describe innate abilities that they don't understand, right.

Ok if that is true, what about the Mouth of Sauron. I believe it says that he is "much learned in sorcery", or something along those lines. how can you learn innate ablilites?

[Rimbaud]

...how can you learn innate ablilites?

Rimfucious he say: the nesting chick has the innate ability to fly - it still needs to learn how.

[Gothmog]

A quick question about language then. I tried searching the internet but came up with nothing so now I'm turning to you people. This quote is from a post by Neithan on the thread uh.. wots a maiar ???/ ( post #14): Also, I always thought that the term Umaia referred to only those Maiar who turned evil (Sauron, Balrogs), but that may just be because it reminds me of the Quenya word Umea "evil", so that might not have any truth to it.
My question to you is, does Umea mean evil? I haven't found that translation anywhere.

It would be rather funny as I live in a town called Umeå right now and with english spelling that becomes...Well, you see my point.

Even if this turns out wrong, can somebody recommend a good elvish-english english-elvish translator? Thank you!

P.S. I don't know if questions regarding language belong here, but to me it's a misc. question...Forgive me if there's some other, better suited thread for this kind of linguistic matters.

/That villanious, very crazy Balrog (or was it Balrog lover?) ;)

[Formendacil]

A quick question about language then. I tried searching the internet but came up with nothing so now I'm turning to you people. This quote is from a post by Neithan on the thread uh.. wots a maiar ???/ ( post #14):
My question to you is, does Umea mean evil? I haven't found that translation anywhere.

It would be rather funny as I live in a town called Umeå right now and with english spelling that becomes...Well, you see my point.

Even if this turns out wrong, can somebody recommend a good elvish-english english-elvish translator? Thank you!

P.S. I don't know if questions regarding language belong here, but to me it's a misc. question...Forgive me if there's some other, better suited thread for this kind of linguistic matters.

/That villanious, very crazy Balrog (or was it Balrog lover?) ;)

Actually... I have no idea where Neithan was getting that information from. Could be a typo, could be something I don't know and/or have forgotten, of course, but I've never heard of the word "umea" before, in connection with Quenya, or with Middle-Earth at all.

[Aiwendil]

The Quettaparma Quenyanna (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2196/wordlist.html) gives "umea" as "evil". But I have checked the two sources it gives (HoMe IX and XI) and cannot find the word.

[Maerbenn]

“[Q] úmea evil” can be found under the entry for ugu- and UMU- in ‘The Etymologies’ published in HoMe V: The Lost Road and Other Writings.

[Gothmog]

Thank you very much people! I'm now (almost) sure I live in "EVIL". Feels good...

[bilbo_baggins]

Does anyone know if Gimli was the only dwarf to go to the Undying lands? And would the Hobbits and Gimli die even after they live there? How could the Vala change the gift of mortality? And does Sam go to Valinor later?

[Gurthang]

Well, I can answer one of your questions. If you look towards the very end of Appendix B you'll find.

1482 Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On Sptemeber 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.

Shortly after that is where it says that Legolas took Gimli with him to Valinor. I'd guess that there were no other dwarves there, but I don't have any text that could back that up.

[Gothmog]

To answer your question about mortals dying or not in the Undying lands I provide this quote:As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 325
There's already a few threads concerning this, this one (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11370) for example.

And Gimli probably was the only dwarf to go to the undying lands, even if it's hard to prove it. I don't think it says so literally, but I've never come across any record of some other dwarf doing the journey. It would be a quite famous dwarf if that would be the case and we should have heard of it.

Hope that's enough information! :)

[DarkLordSauron]

Could the watchers that sam saw may have been the two blue wizards

[The 1,000 Reader]

Possibly, but not likely. Tolkien would have mentioned something about them if they were.

[Thinlómien]

Might it be that Melkor had "courted" Varda for it is said in Sil: From the depth of Eä she came to Manwë's help, for she knew Melkor already before the Music and rejected him, and Melkor hated her... Then translation is mine so it's quite horrible, but I hope you get the point. The quote is from Valaquenta. Especially I would be thankful if someone could check the correct verb (I used "reject"), because it was the thing that made me wonder all this. Did valar have any romantical feelings? I've always thought that they didn't but why did they then marry? To compose a union? Why there weren't any male unions then?

[Formendacil]

Then translation is mine so it's quite horrible, but I hope you get the point. The quote is from Valaquenta.

Well, you're no Tolkien, but I'm impressed at how closely your quote:

From the depth of Eä she came to Manwë's help, for she knew Melkor already before the Music and rejected him, and Melkor hated her...

...resembles Tolkien's original:

Out of the depths of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë, for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music, and she rejected him, and he hated her...

Okay, now that I've said that, you can go back to your original topic...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Why did Sauron fear Galadriel the way Saruman hated her?