Dwarves and Mordor

[Morsul the Dark]

Mordor a name so fowl when it is said a a nearby window breaks instantly. and yet it can not have always been so afterall numenorians lived there once...but here's the thing when it was fair and wonderful...were dwarves in the mountains?

I mean Moria and the lonely mountain can not be the only two places dwarves live right? could they have once dwelled in Mordor's mountains?

and if so was one of these ancient Mines Gandalf's secret way of getting into mordor(this particular question was raised by the thread "if they still had Gandalf"

[piosenniel]

Can you give a few dates - when were the men of Numenor in Mordor? And when were the lands there fair and beautiful?

Thanks!

~*~ Pio

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Edit

No sarcasm intended - simply asking for clarification.

[Folwren]

Do I detect any sort of sarcasm there, Pio? Just out of curiosity, you know.

Minas Ithil and the Tower of Cirith Ungol were originally built by the Gondorians, I believe, but not because they lived in Morder, but because they didn't want anything getting out of Mordor...evil stuff I should imagine. Is that what you're refering to, Morsul?

- - Folwren

[Kuruharan]

There was no Mordor (as far as we can tell) in the First Age. In the Second Age Sauron set up shop there pretty early on. Well, okay, it took a thousand years, but still...

If anybody lived there it would probably have been tribes of primitive men who migrated in after Mordor was created. (And if they had any sense would have left when Sauron turned up. I wonder if they could have been the original slaves who worked Sauron's fields in Nurn...)

The dwarves mostly lived pretty far to the north. Durin's Folk lived in the Misty Mountains, the Grey Mountain, the Iron Hills, and maybe Erebor. This area would have provided them with plenty of exploitable resources for a long, long time (as it indeed did).

The Firebeards (Nogrod) and Broadbeams (Belegost) were probably spread up and down the Blue Mountains during the First Age. Not only did Mordor not exist but it was well beyond their range of activity. After the First Age their populations were probably shattered (the Firebeards certainly were) and the survivors probably remained in the traces of the Blue Mountains or went to Khazad-dum.

Nothing is know about the other dwarves except that they lived far to the east. I think it unlikely they had anything to do with the place.

I suppose houseless Elves might have passed through, but...

This may be another reason why Sauron liked the place. There weren't too many people there to bother him.

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[Gurthang]

Well, didn't Sauron have green fields and fair farms in the Eastern parts of his land? Around the Sea of Nurn? He did have to feed his armies after all. Which would make it seem that Mordor is not so bad a land at that, except for the fact of Mount Doom and it's ash ridden wastes. I would chance that, before Sauron came, there were Dwarves in some of those hills. But what became of their strongholds? What would their caverns become? If they had been made with the skill such as Moria was, perhaps they remain hidden still.

[Morsul the Dark]

Do I detect any sort of sarcasm there, Pio? Just out of curiosity, you know.

Minas Ithil and the Tower of Cirith Ungol were originally built by the Gondorians, I believe, but not because they lived in Morder, but because they didn't want anything getting out of Mordor...evil stuff I should imagine. Is that what you're refering to, Morsul?

- - Folwren

yes thats what I meant when the nunenorians built thos towers


Well, didn't Sauron have green fields and fair farms in the Eastern parts of his land? Around the Sea of Nurn? He did have to feed his armies after all. Which would make it seem that Mordor is not so bad a land at that, except for the fact of Mount Doom and it's ash ridden wastes. I would chance that, before Sauron came, there were Dwarves in some of those hills. But what became of their strongholds? What would their caverns become? If they had been made with the skill such as Moria was, perhaps they remain hidden still.

I was thinking the same thing because Gandalf meant to go to mordor afterall I just figured he may have known about one of these ancient dwarf realms

[Tuor in Gondolin]

On a bit of a tangent, any speculation as to what houses (or parts of them)
of the dwarves fought on the side of Sauron in the battle of the Last Alliance of men and elves, and why?

[alatar]

A real reach here, and done completely without access to source material, but by chance were the "swarthy men" who participated in the Siege of Minas Tirith (think that they had axes) a cross between between men and dwarves? Saruman was doing this with the orcs and men, and so would Sauron do something to produce a race of more controllable dwarves?

Just a thought.

[Kuruharan]

On a bit of a tangent, any speculation as to what houses (or parts of them)
of the dwarves fought on the side of Sauron in the battle of the Last Alliance of men and elves, and why?

If we go by the assumption that Tolkien listed his dwarves going west to east the Ironfists and Stiffbeards would have been closest to Mordor. The Blacklocks and Stonefoots were farther away.

Only the loosest of speculation is possible here.

Why they might have fallen into evil: Lack of an alternative. If you stop and think about it, there is a strong possibility that the dwarves were the only civilization(s) with a cultural basis for resisting Sauron. The tribes and nations of Men in the east tended to be those who had fallen under Morgoth's sway way back in the bad old days and stuck around. The elves were gone. Basically the dwarves seem to have been it. Cultural interaction will have its impact, and I doubt that the dwarves stayed away in the mountains and had no contact with others. Since the Ironfists and Stiffbeards were closer they might have had more contact with people under Sauron's sway. However, this is a wobbly supposition at best.

However, this is a very gray area because these Houses fought in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs against the orcs. But on the other hand, "bad dwarves" are spoken of as having made alliances with orcs. This obviously did not refer to the Longbeards nor to the Firebeards or Broadbeams. This may have something to do with Tolkien's earlier conceptions of the dwarves.

Hmmm...idea forming in brain...perhaps the dwarves in the eastern houses developed a mentality similar to that of Mim. Basically out for themselves more than anything else and willing to work for whoever offered them a better deal. Sauron offered some of them a better deal and they took him up on it.

A real reach here, and done completely without access to source material, but by chance were the "swarthy men" who participated in the Siege of Minas Tirith (think that they had axes) a cross between between men and dwarves? Saruman was doing this with the orcs and men, and so would Sauron do something to produce a race of more controllable dwarves?

It is hard to deny that this is possible.

[Captain Grishnahk]

I dont beleive there are any tunnels in Mordor's mountains save Shelob's. And Tolkien clearly states that she was there long before Sauron. So,... i dont think that the Dwarves ever dwelled in Mordor's mountains. Even though i believe men dwelled in Mordor (Dwelled is such a cool word)
GONDOR!
MORDOR!
Sounds one heckofalot the same to me! Same with Minis Morgul,... Minis Tirith, lots of Minis'sssss.... (?)
Whatever,... but to get back on track, i dont think Tolkien cared much for dwarves as much as elves and men... (and even hobbits for that matter)

-The Captain

"What about their legs? They dont need those!" -Grishnahk

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I belive there were other tunnels than the one of Shelop.

They were just not made by dwarves, but orcs. This i base on the fact that the orcs had build tunnels to avoid shelop. And that the orcs in the Misty Mountains lived in tunnels just like dwarves.

I belive that Tolkien says somthing about tunnels when the armys of the west stands in front of Morannon. (But far from sure)

[Formendacil]

According to dictionary.com, swarthy means:

Having a dark complexion or color.

In other words, these swarthy men were darker skinned than those the narrator would be most familiar with. If this means they were darker in the manner of southern Italians or Arabs (darker than those of more Teutonic descent) or really and truly swarthy in the manner of Africans, who knows.

Certainly, no apparent connection to Dwarves.

Unless Dwarves were swarthy in skin tone...

[Bergil]

According to dictionary.com, swarthy means:



In other words, these swarthy men were darker skinned than those the narrator would be most familiar with. If this means they were darker in the manner of southern Italians or Arabs (darker than those of more Teutonic descent) or really and truly swarthy in the manner of Africans, who knows.

Certainly, no apparent connection to Dwarves.

Unless Dwarves were swarthy in skin tone...

Can we say for sure that they were all pale? perhaps some of the other races of dwarves were dark-skinned.

[Noxomanus]

Noxomanus has returned

To join the discussion, the Silm does mention that all living creatures,except Elves, were divided between Sauron and the Last Alliance during their War. There were few Dwarves in any party but nevertheless,the inescapable conclusion is that there were Dwarves fighting against The Alliance. I personally think that it is quite possible for there to have been Dwarves in the Mordor Mountains,perhaps in the southern parts? After all, we never get a description of their inhabitants.

[Elu Ancalime]

I would exclude orcs too, and trolls and stuff.^
And to RUNE, i belive the 'maggot holes' the Captians of the West saw were only small caves in the side of the Mts of Mordor, adjacent to the Morannon fro orcs to hide in and hide their numbers.
I read somewhere(sorry) that the only passes were the Cirith Gorgor, of course, the Morgul Pass/Road and the Cirith Ungol. Some people interchage the Morgul pass Cirith Ungol like they are the same. The MP is on a lower elevation and south of the Cirith Ungol. But anyways, I read of a Nargil Pass, but i could not find any other info on it besides it existed.
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[Maerbenn]

I read somewhere(sorry) that the only passes were the Cirith Gorgor, of course, the Morgul Pass/Road and the Cirith Ungol.
According to the maps J.R.R. Tolkien himself drew, and reproduced in The Treason of Isengard and The War of the Ring, there were at least four other passes.
Two passes were located in the Ered Lithui; one to the northwest of Barad-dûr and the other to the northeast.
There were also two passes in the Ephel Duath; one at the juncture where the Poros emits from the mountains, and another to the south; the Narg(h)il Pass.

[Suldaledhel]

A real reach here, and done completely without access to source material, but by chance were the "swarthy men" who participated in the Siege of Minas Tirith (think that they had axes) a cross between between men and dwarves?


Keep in mind that Tolkien intended for his works to be seen as an unofficial mythology to the world we know and love (most of the time)--albeit from an English perspective. If you look at any large-scale map of Middle-earth during the Third Age, the similarities to the archaic formations of the original continents becomes apparent. Now we need only look at Mordor's location relevant to the "directions" these people originated from. These "swarthy" men hailed from lands based off our Asia, Middle East, and Africa. I think that explains their appearance more than anything. As for siding with Sauron, their respective civilizations were developing in the wrong places at the wrong time, so to speak, for Sauron to use them as such.

That seems the most logical explanation, but without any definitive quotes, dwarf-men are possible perhaps.

[Groin Redbeard]

Do I detect any sort of sarcasm there, Pio? Just out of curiosity, you know.

Minas Ithil and the Tower of Cirith Ungol were originally built by the Gondorians, I believe, but not because they lived in Morder, but because they didn't want anything getting out of Mordor...evil stuff I should imagine. Is that what you're refering to, Morsul?

- - Folwren

I'm pretty sure Cirith Ungol was built to keep Mordor in check. If I'm not mistaken, it was a battle outpost.

[Alfirin]

[QUOTE=Formendacil;414935]According to dictionary.com, swarthy means:



In other words, these swarthy men were darker skinned than those the narrator would be most familiar with. If this means they were darker in the manner of southern Italians or Arabs (darker than those of more Teutonic descent) or really and truly swarthy in the manner of Africans, who knows.

I think that Swarthy in this case would refer to a skin tone of the first listed, simlar to those of Mediteranian or Middle Eastern descent. Actual skin tome of the kind that one would assocaite with those of Indegenous African descent appeared to be reseved for those from Far Harad who are noted by Tolkein as having skin much darker than the merely swarthy Near Haradrians.
This leads to an intersting question. If the Lossoth are indeed based on the Inuit would they be considered a "swarthy" race in ME?

[Elmo]

Surely Minas Ithil was a proper city before it was captured a twin if you will of Minas Anor to the west with a large amount of folk dwelling there. Though is it technically in Mordor? I don't think so. Anyhow it wouldn't have been a nice place to live as I previously stated in this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13718).