Snow angels

[alatar]

Can elves make 'snow angels?'

For those of you who aren't familiar with the concept, a snow angel is where one lies on snow-covered ground, then moves one's arms in a flapping motion. The legs are opened and closed repeatly, maximizing and minimizing the distance between the feet. After a few minutes of work, one then gets back up off of the snow. The resultant impression in the snow is that of an angel where the wings were created by the arm-flailing and the skirt/gown by the leg motion.

It's pretty cathartic, especially when done in the cold silence of a moonlit night.

Anyway, in FOTR we learn that when the Fellowship is attempting the Redhorn Pass that Legolas barely makes an impression in the snow with his slipper-covered feet. Is this something that he is actively doing, meaning that he could sink into the snow if he so chose, or is it something innate to elvish kind, where snow angels would exist only in their dreams?

[Lalwendë]

Would Legolas want to lie down in the snow anyway? It would mess his hair up! :p

Anyway, I think this could partly be answered by the 'custard theory' I put forward last December. You can apparently walk on custard (it would need to be considerably more than a bowlful) and not sink if you keep moving; this is similar to quicksand in that it is viscous enough to mean that the water (the stuff that dilutes the solids thus making custard, snow and quicksand perilous obstacles for unwary travellers) is displaced by your weight as you move around.

If the snow is 'viscous' enough to allow you not to sink in if you continue to trip lightly along (a la Legolas), but to leave a slight impression, then yes, Legolas could make snow angels. But maybe Gimli would also be busy making ultra-tightly-packed snowballs to throw at him for wasting precious time in larking about while they attempted to cross Caradhras? :p

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It must be a skill. Elves still have mass and weight as Men do. They can crush things if they wish. It makes me think that they have a control over 'leaving a mark', say. And that's particularly important when it comes to nature. Men do 'leave a mark', everywhere as it is.

So Elves can enjoy the natural world without affecting it. Men cannot.

[Gothmog]

As Eomer said: elves have mass and weight just like men so it should be a "skill".

Regarding the oh so famous "custard theory", I don't think that's the case with snow. Look at a hare running on the snow. It doesn't sink if it sits still. Neither would Legolas. When walking in snow you either sink or you don't. Well, you might sink to different depths depending on your weight and for example the size of your feet, but it's not like quicksand (or custard I guess) where you sink slowly.

A thought came to me when I visualized the hare. Is it possible that elves have giant feet? :D No, maybe not...

But if we go back to the original question: snowangels. Even if it is a skill to walk on snow, it's not sure if it's a "passive" skill or something that can be turned on and off. But during the snow-walking Legolas do leave impressions, though they're faint. That would mean faint angels...

I'm from the north of Sweden so consider me a snow-expert :)

[alatar]

Would Legolas want to lie down in the snow anyway? It would mess his hair up! :p

Anyway, I think this could partly be answered by the 'custard theory' I put forward last December. You can apparently walk on custard (it would need to be considerably more than a bowlful) and not sink if you keep moving; this is similar to quicksand in that it is viscous enough to mean that the water (the stuff that dilutes the solids thus making custard, snow and quicksand perilous obstacles for unwary travellers) is displaced by your weight as you move around.

Though I only attended 10% of my physics classes (talking about falling cannon balls is fun, but shooting one off would be much more entertaining...), I'm just not buying it. Even assuming that I would float on custard (whatever that is...hmmm, my English-to-English dictionary describes it as some type of pudding), I would make some noticeable impression in it. My guess (have to go to the MegaMart tonight and buy all of their pudding stock to be sure) is that if I were to lay atop a tub of custard, I would sink. Assuming that it was really really thick, I would at least sink to 1/4 of my body width.

And so I'd be able to make pudding angels.

Snow is less dense than custard. Water is more dense than snow/ice. Could Legolas get his slippers wet? Could he have walked across the Anduin? Methinks not.

[alatar]

Regarding the oh so famous "custard theory", I don't think that's the case with snow. Look at a hare running on the snow. It doesn't sink if it sits still.

Also consider the consistency of the snow (fluffy, frozen over) and the weight/area distribution of the hare (note that to stay atop of snow, one wears snowshoes to widen the area by which one's weight is displaced. Conversely, to stay atop of fashion, one wears stilletoes...;) ).

[Lalwendë]

Custard...drool... (http://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/traditional-english-custard,771,RC.html)

I'm sure that if you walked across custard, your feet would leave some kind of temporal impression, just as they do if you walk across wet sand, the kind of indentation that would last a little while, but not for long. The weight of your body would temporarily 'press' the water on that patch of sand/custard away, and then it would gradually seep back into its original position.

Now I know that snow is slightly different, as it is not a solid mixed with a liquid, it is a liquid in a different state. But whether or not you would be able to walk on snow would also depend upon whether it is hard or soft snow. If it was hard snow (such as is, or was, found in the polar regions) then you would be able to walk on it and leave little impression - similar to hard compacted sand. Soft snow would possibly support the weight of a small animal, but not so a human. Unless Legolas had hollow bones it must have been something about the way he moved on the snow to stop him falling.

Perhaps his grace and poise enabled him to walk on it much as it would allow a ballet dancer to stand on her toes (whereas I would probably end up in casualty). So if he was lying down in the snow then yes, he would be able to make a snow angel much as anyone else could.

[Bêthberry]

Can elves make 'snow angels?'



I think a correlative question is 'would they want to?'

The play of elves seems very serious stuff, full of Art, Wonder, Beauty and High Moral Purpose, but making snow angels reflects the very heart of play, at least for children--creativity and curiosity about all elements of the world, play for no ulterior purpose other than sheer delight in doing something, the release of pent up energy, no concern for posterity or eternity but a complete abandon to this moment in time.

No, doesn't sound like elves to me. ;)

On the other hand, his slippers could be made of the same elven material as their cloaks and provide a physical defiance of gravity similar to the cloaks' defiance of sight. Either way, elves light, er lite! :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Perhaps his grace and poise enabled him to walk on it much as it would allow a ballet dancer to stand on her toes
Don't forget to include the phrase "high pain threshold" in that comparison. Dancing en pointe hurts.

I think a correlative question is 'would they want to?'

The play of elves seems very serious stuff, full of Art, Wonder, Beauty and High Moral Purpose, but making snow angels reflects the very heart of play, at least for children--creativity and curiosity about all elements of the world, play for no ulterior purpose other than sheer delight in doing something, the release of pent up energy, no concern for posterity or eternity but a complete abandon to this moment in time.

No, doesn't sound like elves to me. ;)
Tra la la lally, I say to you.

Now the question... could Elves make snow angels. Wouldn't it be based entirely on how lightly they tread at all times? Perhaps the silence in which they pass through the woods is not because of exact and developed craft but because they barely touch the ground? Would the half-dwelling in the spiritual land experienced by the Eldar affect their physical bodies? It is not necessarily that they intentionally can caper about upon the snow as that they just sort of... do. But, as I have no quotes or anything to back me up, feel free to ignore me. :D

[alatar]

And to throw this in:

Humans in Tolkien's world, even the best of them (Beren, Aragorn) are still below their immortal cousins, the Firstborn.

Humans make cram or waybread. Elves make lembas.
Humans take pride in a ship named the "Wooden Whale." The Elves have the "Foam Flower."
Humans make snow angels. Assuming that an Elf overcame whatever (lacking the density, gravity, mood, whimsy, etc) and actually made a snow angel, then surely this impression would have to be at least an archangel...;)

[Bêthberry]

Tra la la lally, I say to you.



Now, Fea, I beg you to consider the terms of reference with which Alatar began this thread.



Anyway, in FOTR we learn that when the Fellowship is attempting the Redhorn Pass that Legolas barely makes an impression in the snow with his slipper-covered feet. Is this something that he is actively doing, meaning that he could sink into the snow if he so chose, or is it something innate to elvish kind, where snow angels would exist only in their dreams?

Far be it from me to get into davemian Legendarium question about Elves and elves, but my comments pertained solely to the terms Alatar initially set up.
Although perhaps we could consider whether any of TH elves would produce an effect similar to that of Legolas, which is essentially no effect?

I can't recall any snow on the Misty Mountains. And although there were Light-elves and Deep-elves and Sea-elves in TH, I cannot recall any Snow-elves though. Is there any mention of snow at all in TH?

[Lalwendë]

I can't recall any snow on the Misty Mountains. And although there were Light-elves and Deep-elves and Sea-elves in TH, I cannot recall any Snow-elves though. Is there any mention of snow at all in TH?

The main action of The Hobbit takes place from Spring through the Summer, so there is no snow in terms of it posing a hazard; the party does not pass through any snow. The white stuff is mentioned, but only as 'scenery', on the peaks of the mountains. However, Bilbo's return to The Shire is delayed due to the risk of snow.

I'd suppose Snow-elves would only exist in a region which was permanently snowy, and we don't know of any that do. Though I do like the sound of Snow-elves. ;)

Far be it from me to get into davemian Legendarium question about Elves and elves

:D

I like the sound of davemist better though. :smokin:

[The Saucepan Man]

Though I do like the sound of Snow-elves.Well, there were snow-men, so why not?

davemology? davemological? :D

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

davemaic?

And take a look at the races of Middle Earth:

Wee hobbit lads pelting each other with snowballs as the hobbit men and women sit comfortably by the fire.

Grumpy dwarves, trudging through drifts, with miserable expressions.

Children of men building castles in the snow.

Ents... thinking about it.

And Elves? Who better than those who truly appreciate the beauty of nature to frolic in it? Though I daresay they might be hesitant to disturb the fresh powder... after all, untouched snow does gleam so beautifully in the morning.

[Lalwendë]

Well, there were snow-men, so why not?

The Men who lived on the shores of Forochel, the Lossoth, were also known as the Snow-men; and it was here that the Elven ship foundered when it came to rescue King Arvedui. It is possible that Elves and Men did meet on that occasion, and possibly mix at other times?

davemology? davemological?

Well, davemology might properly be defined as the study of davem, as in Biology, etc.

What about davemism as a socio-political-philosophical system? In the manner of Communism and Capitalism?

;)

[davem]

Would the half-dwelling in the spiritual land experienced by the Eldar affect their physical bodies? It is not necessarily that they intentionally can caper about upon the snow as that they just sort of... do.


Its possible, I suppose, that living in both worlds at the same time they could somehow 'shift their weight' between them. When they sail West is it as much a spiritual as physical movement? What I mean is that they shift dimensions as much as travel in physical space. If that was the case then its possible that when Legolas stood on the surface of the snow he wasn't completely in the physical world. The spiritaul realm probably obeys different physical laws - which may explain Legolas ability to 'see' 105 Rohirrim warriors at such a great distance.

BTW - ? Davemist or Tolkienist - I think the terms are pretty interchangeable :p

[The Saucepan Man]

The Men who lived on the shores of Forochel, the Lossoth, were also known as the Snow-men ...That's who I meant.

[Bêthberry]

Well, there were snow-men, so why not?


The Men who lived on the shores of Forochel, the Lossoth, were also known as the Snow-men; and it was here that the Elven ship foundered when it came to rescue King Arvedui. It is possible that Elves and Men did meet on that occasion, and possibly mix at other times?



That's who I meant.

Let us not forget the snow-trolls around Helm's Deep during the terrible Long Winter, who Helm was said to appear like as he stormed the camps of the enemy.


BTW - ? Davemist or Tolkienist - I think the terms are pretty interchangeable

Hold on here! Are you suggesting, davem, that you are Tol-keener than SpM or Sharkey or Legolas or Estelyn or Aiwendil or Fordim or burrahobbit or the great and mighty Mithadan?

[davem]

Hold on here! Are you suggesting, davem, that you are Tol-keener than SpM or Sharkey or Legolas or Estelyn or Aiwendil or Fordim or burrahobbit or the great and mighty Mithadan?

I wasn't suggesting anything....

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, davemology might properly be defined as the study of davem ...Ah, a fascinating field of study. I hear that the University of East Anglia runs a very good course.

Perhaps we should start a thread to discuss it's finer concepts. It could start thus:

I wasn't suggesting anything....Discuss.

;)

[alatar]

Using a small bowl of pudding, one of my children's figurines, a toothpick and a pair of tongs, I tested the 'pudding angel' theory, which I assume is akin or corollary somehow to the custard theory (though I'm surely no scientist). Here is what I found:

Pudding is not the medium of choice for making angels. In an attempt to simulate appendage flailing, I tweaked the doll with the toothpick but wasn't successful in creating any angelic imagery, just a sticky mess. On the good side it was noted that the small figurine did not sink into the pudding; however; extrapolating upward into our scale to a person of average height, one would have to weigh in at approximately five pounds (2.3 kg) for guaranteed floatage*.

The figure had to be extracted using the tongs, and any impression that it may have made in the pudding was marred by the pudding's adhesive properties. Note that the ensuing 3-D shape created by the doll's extraction in no way resembled any humanoid, terrestrial or otherwise - and I'm somewhat of the imaginative sort. Those under the influence of psychotropic substances may believe otherwise and may be prompted to purchase said pudding angels on eBay.

My accomplice of the night was the dog, who patiently looked on, possibly hoping to participate in the doll's cleaning. This prompted the small insight in that further scaled-up testing involving a small pool of pudding and a human volunteer could be dangerous in that that much pudding/custard may attract unwanted attention from those of the Lalwendëian sort (e.g "I must have that custard!").


*Pudding floatage for witches was not determined and should be attempted with due caution.

The following was provided as a public service announcement and as a service to the community.

[The Saucepan Man]

Braniac (http://www.skyone.co.uk/programme/pgeprogramme.aspx?pid=15)

Custard (http://www.zen.org/?p=3)

Sounds like this might be your kind of show, alatar. :D

[Lalwendë]

alatar - that has to be about one of the funniest things I've ever read about :D I might have to try this experiment myself as I have a large carton of Ambrosia Devon Custard and a Jamaica Ginger cake which davem has been wanting me to make into a pudding for some days; when I finally do make said pudding I shall have to get one of my Legolas action figures, pose him on the pudding and take some pictures...

Now when the experiment was carried out on Brainiac, they actually had a small swimming pool filled with custard, and that's no mere trifle.

To attempt this experiment on a small scale with plastic figurines might mean a change in the substance being used. I would suggest the head on a pint of Guinness as a suitable alternative for plastic figures.

Although, to test this in terms of how it would compare to snow, maybe a large container of soft ice cream would do the trick?

Ah, a fascinating field of study. I hear that the University of East Anglia runs a very good course.

davemology BA (hons)
Required units of study in Semester 1:

- Questioning the Accepted Legendarium
- Knowledge of Faerie
- Canonicity. Does It Matter?
- Authorial Intention, A Reader's Approach?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

davemism

Is that similar to "euphemism"? Would a "davemism" then be a way of expressing something with particularly complicated sentences and words, hunting it down by going around it in circles until it gives up? ;) :D :p

Ahem! To post something at least reasonably on topic - perhaps Elves would make "sand angels" on the shores of the Grey Havens before leaving Middle-Earth?

If you can't get more seriously on topic than that, Esty, you'll have to move this thread to Mirth...

[The Saucepan Man]

OMG Now Esty has an alter ego!!! :eek:

Er - snow angels ...

Legolas watched them for a while with a smile on his lips, and then he turned to the others. "The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimmming, and for running light over grass and leaf and snow - an Elf.

With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow. (Emphasis added)That tells us four things:

1. This is an ability of Elves generally, not just Legolas.
2. It involves running lightly.
3. It involves being nimble.
4. His feet did make some imprint in the snow, but not much.

I draw from this that Elves, being lithe and nimble, were able to redistribute their weight so that they ran lightly, reducing the weight placed on the surface and leaving only a light impact. My guess is that this would require a conscious effort, since there might be occasions when they would wish to step more heavily.

Laying in the snow, an Elf would have nowhere to redistribute the weight of his body to, and so I would conclude that an Elf's snow angel would be as deep and marked as a man's.

I believe that this issue (Legolas' light step) is addressed in the book on the Science of Middle-earth that I noted a while back. Lalwendë, you have the book don't you? Does it shed any light on this question?

[Bêthberry]

perhaps Elves would make "sand angels" on the shores of the Grey Havens before leaving Middle-Earth?


Here again I might be thinking too exclusively in terms of late Silm elves rather than early Legendarium elves, but I suspect that elves would not build sand angels, nor in fact sand castles, as the prospect of seeing them washed away by the tide would be too much for elves to bear, unless they were deeply into mortification, which could of course be a possibility. Do they willfully deny themselves the custard?

EDIT: cross posting with SpM.


That tells us four things:

1. This is an ability of Elves generally, not just Legolas.
2. It involves running lightly.
3. It involves being nimble.
4. His feet did make some imprint in the snow, but not much.

I draw from this that Elves, being lithe and nimble, were able to redistribute their weight so that they ran lightly, reducing the weight placed on the surface and leaving only a light impact. My guess is that this would require a conscious effort, since there might be occasions when they would wish to step more heavily.


Excuse me, but there is a fifth point, one which I posited up above: that elven slippers are made from the same material as their cloaks and herein lies their gravity-defying capability.

[alatar]

alatar - that has to be about one of the funniest things I've ever read about :D I might have to try this experiment myself as I have a large carton of Ambrosia Devon Custard and a Jamaica Ginger cake which davem has been wanting me to make into a pudding for some days; when I finally do make said pudding I shall have to get one of my Legolas action figures, pose him on the pudding and take some pictures...

Please do as ...uhhh...my experiment as described was more like those physics experiments - mostly mental, don't cha know - and so I would like to see if my speculation would hold up. Sorry, but couldn't resist, and spoofing a lab report is something learned long ago.


Now when the experiment was carried out on Brainiac, they actually had a small swimming pool filled with custard, and that's no mere trifle.

Flipped by that show a few times, but wasn't sure if it were serious or not. Not a big fan of 'Fear Factor' type shows, and so never sat down to actually watch it. Was hoping that there would be a "Mythbusters: Middle Earth" show in the works so that the stars, Alatar and Pallando, could examine such ME myths like Balrog wings and elven snow angels ("Hey Pallando, what do we have in store tonight?" "We're traveling all the way to the Helcaraxë to see IF elves CAN make snow angels. Plus, we're going to see how much sunlight it takes to tan an Olog-hai...")


To attempt this experiment on a small scale with plastic figurines might mean a change in the substance being used. I would suggest the head on a pint of Guinness as a suitable alternative for plastic figures.

That would be all I need. Would you like to hear me explaining to Ms. alatar just WHY I'm floating one of the children's toys on top of my beer?

[The Saucepan Man]

Excuse me, but there is a fifth point, one which I posited up above: that elven slippers are made from the same material as their cloaks and herein lies their gravity-defying capability.You have in mind that Elves had the ability to create shoes with some kind of anti-gravitational field? I see no place in the Legendarium for such a concept. :p ;)

[davem]

You have in mind that Elves had the ability to create shoes with some kind of anti-gravitational field? I see no place in the Legendarium for such a concept.

Ahem....Tolkien toyed with the idea of the Numenoreans having flying ships...

[The Saucepan Man]

Ahem....Tolkien toyed with the idea of the Numenoreans having flying ships...Sure. But what does Tolkien know? He's only the author ... :D

In a more serious vein, I would imagine that, had Elves been able to produce such artefacts, they would have made fine additional gifts for the Fellowship in Lorien, to accompany the cloaks.

[Bêthberry]

In a more serious vein, I would imagine that, had Elves been able to produce such artefacts, they would have made fine additional gifts for the Fellowship in Lorien, to accompany the cloaks.

Unless of course the slippers were the special purview of the Mirkwood elves, while the Lorien elves specialised in, shall we say, cloaking devices. :p ;)

[The Saucepan Man]

Unless of course the slippers were the special purview of the Mirkwood elves ...Foot specialists? Hmm. Why would they need such footwear in the woods? Possibly to move through the trees and hunt silently, I suppose.

Then again, I see the backwoods Mirkwood Elves as being more likely to concentrate their creative efforts on party teleporters (devices for the teleporting of parties) and everlasting wine bottles. :D

[alatar]

You have in mind that Elves had the ability to create shoes with some kind of anti-gravitational field? I see no place in the Legendarium for such a concept.
One of the misconceptions regarding all things 'anti-gravity' is that the thing just floats. Air is still displaced, and that air pushes downward with some force. Not even geeked up enough to do the math, but it may be possible for Legolas to hover a bit with his anti-gravity slippers, but he still may leave a trail.

And I'm guessing that those same slippers would make shooting a bow just a joy.

A link to antigravity (http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000112A7-67A3-1C71-9EB7809EC588F2D7) and a specific link to the Independence Day physics reference here (http://intuitor.com/moviephysics/independ.html).

[Child of the 7th Age]

Hmm.... My poor daughter has to come up with a science fair project. She is not too keen on science but is appreciative of Elves, particularly those who look like Orlando Bloom. I wonder how her teacher would react to a project investigating whether or not Elves have the ability to generate snow angels, or alternatively to walk on pudding? Since moms are often dragged unwillingly into these science fair things, I see possibilities in this topic.

Anyone know if the one book that's out there on Middle-earth science has any reference to Snow Angels and Elves? We need to have at least one sound reference other than the Barrowdowns itself (not that I am claiming the BD is "sound".)

[Lalwendë]

I believe that this issue (Legolas' light step) is addressed in the book on the Science of Middle-earth that I noted a while back. Lalwendë, you have the book don't you? Does it shed any light on this question?

Alas, said tome is lacking in mention of Elves and snow. :(

You have in mind that Elves had the ability to create shoes with some kind of anti-gravitational field? I see no place in the Legendarium for such a concept.

A-ha! Now that is a davemism (I bow to Esty for introducing this new concept to the English language ;) ) if ever I saw one!

Please do as ...uhhh...my experiment as described was more like those physics experiments - mostly mental, don't cha know - and so I would like to see if my speculation would hold up. Sorry, but couldn't resist, and spoofing a lab report is something learned long ago.

Well, it is drawing close to tea time, and if the main course does not fill up the corners sufficiently then afters might be called for, in which case I shall have to take the opportunity to play with my food (I'm a grown-up and I can do this without risking being sent to bed early) and attempt an experiment. Stay tuned to see if the Pudding Elves have paid a visit...

Ahem! To post something at least reasonably on topic - perhaps Elves would make "sand angels" on the shores of the Grey Havens before leaving Middle-Earth?

I suspect that elves would not build sand angels, nor in fact sand castles, as the prospect of seeing them washed away by the tide would be too much for elves to bear, unless they were deeply into mortification, which could of course be a possibility.

Perhaps those Elves who lived permanently at the Grey Havens would be into making sand angels? It wouldn't be such a big wrench for them to indulge their love for 'action art' in such an ephemeral media, as they could make them again and again, twice every day. Plus the Elves of the Grey Havens must have been heavily into sadness and melancholy entertainments being subject to tearful departures all the while, so seeing their 'art' being washed away twice a day might have had some extra poignancy.

Though the sand might have got into Cirdan's beard and made it itchy.

I like the idea that Elves knew how to move around while putting as little weight on the ground as possible; it could be one of those weird skills learned during the inevitable boredom of such long lives! ;)

[Lalwendë]

Let's lay the Legolas/Custard theory to rest. I managed to catch the blighter sneaking into the dining room as I set the desert course upon the table and asked if he would oblige. He was gracious enough to accept my challenge all in the name of 'science' *cough*. From the pictures enclosed we see that he can stand, but he does sink. Finally, when he is drunk from the heady feeling of standing in my pudding and gets a bit legless, he falls over. But does he leave an impression? See for yourselves...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

That experiment gives us an interesting insight into the etymology of the Elf's name: Legolas = legless

These 'scientific' experiments (alatar and Lalwendë) absolutely crack me up! This thread is priceless!


[edit: I might have known that my 4000th post would be like this - informative, substantial, learned, and carefully crafted! :rolleyes: ]

[alatar]

While researching the specific gravity (http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm) value of Jello/gelatin, I wondered if someone somewhere determined this value along with those of other dessert substances, when I had an epiphany...

Parfaits!

To paraphrase Donkey, "How about parfait angels? Everybody likes parfait angels. You ever asked someone out for some parfait angels and they say 'Heck no. I don't like no darn parfait angels!'?"

Thanks to Estelyn Telcontar's avatar for helping me see the light.

[Frodo Baggins]

Forget not, my friends, that in the book Legolas only ran over the snow, while walking it appears he had to drag through like everyone else. If you run fast enough you can run over custard, or ever water (there is a type of lizard which does such). Legolas says something about elves running over leaves and snow and then takes off. So...the running seems to be a special elfy thing he can do (perhaps the lack of big stompy klunky man boots helps). If Elves still can walk on snow and poke though it then they surely can make snow angels. Or perhaps to the Elves they would be snow Valar. :rolleyes: ;)

[Gothmog]

there is a type of lizard which does such Called "Jesus-lizard" in Swedish :)

What if elves make snowangels really fast? Are they still visible?

And one more thing I've noticed, Legolas do not only walk on snow. He hardly leaves any prints in grass either! I can't remember the exactly when this occures, but I'm sure I've read about it in LotR. And I'm also pretty sure he did not run at that occasion.

[Frodo Baggins]

My dear Gothmog, I do not recall in the book Legolas actually walking ON the snow. Please if I am wrong point me in the right direction. The only walking atop snow is done in the movie.

Edit: Dude! I started another page.

[Lalwendë]

Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. 'The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow--an Elf.'
With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.
'Farewell!' he said to Gandalf. 'I go to find the Sun!' Then swift as a runner over firm sand he shot away, and quickly overtaking the toiling men, with a wave of his hand he passed them, and sped into the distance, and vanished round the rocky turn.

Well technically he does not walk on the snow, instead he runs on it...

Maybe we shall have some real snow here in Yorkshire soon enough and then I can try out some new experiments...

[Gothmog]

So, my even dearer Frodo, old lad. I think the quote provide by Lalwende proves that Legolas did walk on the snow in the books. Unless you're being technical and calls it "running" on snow? But still, he should have moved at a moderate speed when talking to the others.

But can somebody please confirm my suspicion that Legolas hardly leaves any prints on grass either?

And Lalwende: I'm living like 3000 km north of you and I don't have any snow! But I promise you, as soon as those wonderful, white stars start falling, I'm going to try my best to run on the snow. Maybe if I go downhill...hmmm...... As I said earlier, is it possible that elves had a pair of huge feet the Tolkien forgot to mention?

[Frodo Baggins]

Ok Ok I concede, Legolas can walk on snow. But riddle me this. Can ALL elves walk on snow, or jsut some? We seem to be focusing on Legolas, but what of those such as Elrond the half elven and his 3/4 elven children?

And even more importantly, can they throw snowballs? ;)

[Gothmog]

but what of those such as Elrond the half elven and his 3/4 elven children? And what makes that question even more interesting is the Maia blood in Elrond. Can divine spirits like the maiar walk on snow? If they can, Elrond (being 1/16 maia, 3/8 man and 9/16 elf. Hope I got that right...) should have greater "snow-walking" abilities than Legolas. Or does the man-blood make him lose some of his skill?

;)

[alatar]

Gothmog, if I had my books (which I don't) I would be looking in TTT for text regarding Legolas walking on grass. Or maybe at the end of FotR...somewhere it's stated that elves tread lightly.

And I will send snow if someone were to pay for shipping - will send freezing wind for free - though we may have to hurry as the weather is going to change yet again.

[Frodo Baggins]

Your proportions are correct, Gothmog. Although at 1/16 I would think the Maia dilute enough to be just this side of negligible. Elves like Galadriel, Celeborn, and Gildor seem to have more...what's the word I want, more power or "oomph" if you will than Elrond. (Described as an "Elf-friend" in The Hobbit.) Perhaps the humanity (whuch is nearly a full half) cancels out the Maia. But I shall leave Elven DNA to more expreienced minds.

BTW Gothmog, love the signature.

[Gothmog]

BTW Gothmog, love the signature. Thank you! And I really mean it!

Now when HUGO is finished (a project mapping the human genome) maybe it's time for EUGO, the mapping of the elven genome? Do the elven genome contain the usual nucleic acids with G-T-A-C (guanine, thyamin, adenine and cytosine), or do they have more nucleotids? What do the elven DNA look like????

And Alatar, no need to send the freezing wind, we've got that already. Actually there was some snow today, but not enough to make any experiments. But it will come...

;)

[Farael]

Well, here in the Winterpeg we are having a really unusual fall... as it has snowed, then it all melted, snowed about 20 cm. in one night and then melted for the most part (yet what remains is nasty ice). Still, as soon as it snows again, I'll give snowrunning a shot. I might not be the ideal subject as I'm 6' and about 185 pounds but there's one thing I do recall from previous winters.

If it snows and then the weather gets really really cold, the top layer of snow will somewhat freeze and you will be able to walk on it. That is, until you find a soft spot in which you will sink knee-deep on snow. Still, if I can walk in frozen snow, I would guess a much lighter and athetic elf should be able to run on any kinds of snow.

Also, I found this quote, but the topic has already been discussed... stil, for your enlightment and enjoyment,

Few animals are able to walk on the surface of water. One such rarity is basilisk, which lives in Central America and is seen below. On the sides of the toes of basilisk’s hind feet are flaps that enable them to splash water. These are rolled up when the animal walks on land. If the animal faces danger, it starts to run very fast on the surface of a river or a lake. Then the flaps on its hind feet are opened and thus more surface area is provided for it to run on water.

Found on a webpage, sadly I forgot to copy the name of the page as well.

Farael

[Lalwendë]

Only Legolas still stepped as lightly as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass, leaving no footprints as he passed; but in the waybread of the Elves he found all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.

Here is the bit about Legolas walking on the grass (from TT). This puzzles me a bit as surely most people leave no footprints walking on grass? It also amuses me as Legolas is like one of those people you get on group hikes who is completely tireless and urging everyone onwards, even though all they want to do is sit down for ten minutes and make a start on their sandwiches.

Maybe Legolas tires so little because as an Elf, his days and years are much longer and he has a different concept of time and distance, hence he may possess more inate stamina. This might also explain why he is able to tread so lightly that he doesn't leave footprints. It could also be that as an Elf he is not wholly 'of this world' and leaves little behind him as he passes through it.

The snow did not happen here (just lots of hard frost instead) so I have not yet had the chance to try out running on the snow, though when it does, as I live on a steep hill some running on the snow may happen involuntarily. :eek: And we have been promised a 'bad winter', our weather coming more often from the North rather than the West as is usual - something to do with the Azores Ridge apparently.

[Gothmog]

Great! The long sought quote. Thank you Lalwende! This puzzles me a bit as surely most people leave no footprints walking on grass? This can be discussed. It depends on how we define footprints. Of course our feet bends the grass straws, but there's no clear print visible. To us that is. Think on Aragorn for example, a Ranger of the North, great hunter and all. Don't you think he would have the skill to interpret those bent straws as a footprint? Besides, the level of print left depends on the grass. When I was in Scotland two years ago, we had a picnic (sp?) outside one of the many castles. The print we left when sitting in the grass was still visible an hour later! So I'd say that we all leave some sort of prints when walking in grass.

Farael:That is, until you find a soft spot in which you will sink knee-deep on snow. Still, if I can walk in frozen snow, I would guess a much lighter and athetic elf should be able to run on any kinds of snow. I know the feeling. Hate it... But back to topic: is elves lighter then humans? In that case, why? Hollow bones like birds? Or is this some sort of elven skill? Or the not-wholly-of-this-world-effect? Looks like we're back on square one where we started this discussion many posts back...

[Farael]

I don't think elves are any lighter than humans, just more graceful. Also, I'd believe they are less muscular and therefore lighter, but not because of some inherent quality, just because of their body build. I've been trying to run on snow, but I find that I step much heavier when I start runnning than when I'm walking... so I'm yet to figure out a way to gather up speed without falling through the top layer of snow. But I shall succeed, I still have at least four, probably five months of good snow to try my theory.

[Gothmog]

But if we assume that Legolas ability to walk on snow depends on his agility, his skill to walk softly, then he have to walk VERY softly to stop the laws of physic to do their work. It's true that you can walk on some snow (for example snow where the top layer has melted in the sun and later frozen again) but this was very new snow. And if it was "walkable" for Legolas due to his lesser muscle mass and softer steps, why couldn't the hobbits do the same thing? They must be much lighter than the men, maybe lighter then Legolas too. Plus they have large feet which makes the pressure against the surface they walk on less (P=F/A, pressure equals the force divided by the surface area).

I, too, believe that elves have a different body build than men, but I find it hard to believe that that would make such a big difference. I think it's a combination of the fact that they're more graceful and light and some sort of "gift" elves have. A passive skill which makes them tread this earth lighter than normal, mortal beings. Maybe because their not wholly of this world, they are in some minor way half-divine creatures, especially those elves that dwelt or dwelles in the West.

It's going to be an interesting winter. A wave of broken bones will spread thorugh the Downs when the snow comes for real with everybody trying different ways of getting enough speed to run on the surface of the snow :)

[Farael]

Good point, maybe I should try walking lightly rather than running... and we don't really know if the hobbits were able to do it, as they never tried.

Yet I guess the evidence is piling up towards some unnatural Elvish skill... maybe they are able to spread their weight around in such way as to take advantage of the whole surface area of their feet while humans and hobbits will lean heavily on the back or front end of their feet and therefore apply pressure concentrated on a single point rather than spread out?? But I'm just guessing here...

[Gothmog]

maybe they are able to spread their weight around in such way as to take advantage of the whole surface area of their feet while humans and hobbits will lean heavily on the back or front end of their feet and therefore apply pressure concentrated on a single point rather than spread out?? Possible, but I don't think that is enough. Take for example Legolas with the known weight of 60 kg. His feet measured around 0,1x0,3 m = 0,03 m2. Assuming that Midlle Earth has about the same gravity as our Earth, that would give us P=(60x10*)/0,03=20 000 N/m2. *= the gravity constant, which is about 9,8 but here 10 is used to simplify things as the ME-value is unknown. Now think of Boromir, who weighs 85 kg and has feet measures of 0,15x0,40. The pressure would be about 14 000 N/m2.

As you can see, the feet size is far more important that the weight and, assuming Boromir uses his whole foot, Boromir is actually less likely to go through the snow! To get a pressure as high as Legolas', his feet has to be smaller, for example 0,15x0,28 m.

***NOTE: All numbers regarding the characters weight is from their official hospital records that Elven Maids Weekly found when investigating the life of Legolas, se nr. 4, year 24 of the fourth age.***

***NOTE 2: If you find any errors in my calculations, I blame it all on being tired, not having done any physics in the last two years and Elven Maids Weekly for false information***

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't know how well this applies to Tolkien's Elves, but in general folklore and mythology regarding Elves, they are supposedly less substantial than humans, being more ethereal. This makes them very light, and they leave very little impression on the surfaces they come in contact with. The idea of Elves being small came from this- an Elf our size is light enough that one could easily lift him/her, and this was later recounted as them being lesser in staure rather than density.
In the more religious mindsets from the era of fairytales, Men are more dense becuase they were formed from dust, where as Elves were some form of fallen angel. In Tolkien speak, this places them closer to the Valar and the Ainur than Man.
In the same vein, I suppose Dwarves would be somewhat denser than Men.

So, from this, I would say it's not really something they do on purpose, or a skill of any kind, but a natural occurence. Could they make snow angels? Probably, but it would be very shallow. A bonus would be that they wouldn't ruin it by standing up. ;)

EDIT: Also, the core of the Tolkien Elves have a core of flame, which would also make them less dense.

[Farael]

I know this is all but dead, yet today we got some snow so tomorrow I will probably try out walking in the snow and not sinking on it. For the time being I think I will try running on the snow starting on the snow itself, gathering speed outside the snow and then going in the snow, walking normaly in the snow and walking carefully in the snow. Anyone has more ideas of what I should try?

[Roa_Aoife]

Be less dense than the snow?

[alatar]

Back in my college days, when I had more adrenaline than sense, I decided on one boring day that I would attempt running in snow barefoot. The temperature was about zero degrees Celsius, there was little wind and the sun was in the sky. In the apartment complex in which we lived there was a courtyard that was boxed by the apartments, and there was a toppled snowman sitting in the middle about 25 yards out that we had built some days before.

My plan was to run out to the snowman, stand on top of the body, then run back. I wore tropical shorts and a flannel shirt to...ahhh...keep me warm and stylish.

Note: don't do this, it could be fatal.

Well, I ran out and the first thing that I noticed was that the snow felt like sand to the touch, and instead of being cold, which I would have expected, it actually burned. I made it out to the snowman without incident, but on the way back I started to feel very sluggish. By the time I made it to the warmth of the apartment my heart was racing so fast (trying to compensate for my stupidity) that I was sure that it was going to exit my chest.

It took over 30 minutes to recover, and at the time I was pretty fit.

So whatever you do, think it out first. You're not an elf, you're going to feel cold and you will sink.

And elves did not wear bunny slippers.

Note that the attached image shows when I at least had sense enough to wear boots.

[Farael]

Don't worry Alatar but in this city you learn to respect the cold, as it can get pretty bad. Although I have to admit that
-Playing snow football I didn't realize my fingers were turning blue, although I still had sensitivity on them and they did not feel sluggish or anything
-I went toboganning when it was -50 C with the windchill. The first five minutes were alright, but after another five I had to run back inside because I Was freezing

Yet my plans were to try running on the snow wearing boots!! my excuse for that would have been that it'd give me a larger surface area and therefore there'd be less pressure on the snow.

I'll write again later with the results.... although odds are, I'll just make a lot of tracks in the snow.

Be less dense than the snow?
I'll take that as an attempt at humour rather than offense. But please, as written words do not convey expressions very clearly, make sure you clarify next time.

[Farael]

Well, after a while of fun experimentation (wish Science was just as fun) I have found that.... I cannot walk on snow without leaving a BIG imprint. No matter if I run, walk, starting from the snow or from a surface next to it, it won't make much of a difference. If anything, I have found that running from a hard surface into snow increases the chance of winding up with a facefull of snow :D I felt like such a kid.

[alatar]

I just walked through the thread again, and what an interesting read!

Just some thoughts:
Do elves have some helium-producing gland that offsets their weight?
Elves and humans have to be somewhat similar as they can create offspring (I think that that is the definition of a species).
Dancing with an elf would be cool. Not only would they be the best 'moonwalkers,' but if they stepped on your toes, you'd never know.
Tom Bombadil seemingly wards off rain by waving his hands. Do elves wave their hands downward and sing songs of lightness?
The build up of lactic acid within your muscles is what makes you tired. Elves have better enzymes.
Anyone who cuts grass knows that you leave a trail - you do, not just the mower.

Well, as the local forecast includes possible snow, I must go and perform my civic duty, which is to act like a few inches of snow falling in winter constitutes the end of civilization/the apocalypse. Snow?!? In winter? When did that ever start?

After disregarding all traffic laws and throwing common courtesy out the window, I will buy up all the bread, milk and toilet tissue that I can hoard then retreat slowly back to my domicile (as everyone else is out doing the same thing, and so the dry roads are clogged with panicked shoppers). For those who don't understand this behavior, you must understand that the news media (supported by many grocery chains) makes sure that each snowfall is an event, whether snow falls or not. And as this might just be the big one, I might not be able to go shopping for...24 hours at the most. The way some people react you'd think that cannibalism would set in after 4 hours without shopping.

But more likely, if snow does come, I will take advantage of the moment and go outside with the kids to make snow angels, as that's what life's all about.

Thanks for posting.

[Lalwendë]

Do elves have some helium-producing gland that offsets their weight?

Makes you think. If you snogged an Elf would you have a really squeaky high pitched voice for a while afterwards? Did anyone warn Aragorn?

[Gothmog]

Elves and humans have to be somewhat similar as they can create offspring (I think that that is the definition of a species). Come to think about it, as elves and men can create offspring that in their turn can create offspring, that means elves and men are the SAME species! According to the biological definition of the term at least. Makes you think...

And I, too, have tried walking on the snow up here. Without success of course. I still think that elves had gigantic feet that made it possible for them to walk on snow. Like small skis or snowshoes!

[The Saucepan Man]

Strange, but this thread makes me feel somehow abnormal for not trying to walk on snow to see if I can avoid making an impression because I instinctively know that I cannot ... :rolleyes: ;)

[Farael]

Strange, but this thread makes me feel somehow abnormal for not trying to walk on snow to see if I can avoid making an impression because I instinctively know that I cannot ... :rolleyes: ;)
Oh, come on ... it's a lot of fun!! you've GOT to give it a try... we know thus far that Farael nor Gothmog can walk/run on snow... how about The Saucepan Man?

[The Saucepan Man]

... how about The Saucepan Man?What, with all these pots 'n pans all over?

Legolas I ain't. :rolleyes:

[Lalwendë]

Finally, some snow. As you will see, Legolas does slightly sink into the snow, but he does not sink all the way down. This would suggest that he could make a snow angel (or would it be a snow Ainur? oooh, can of worms...), as he would no doubt leave some impression. However, we caught him at rest here (I think he saw the cat so he had to get his white knife at the ready, or perhaps he was just waiting in vain for the bus) so the question of how much impression his feet leave when he is moving remains unanswered. :(

[Farael]

Thanks Lalwendë for bringing up this thread!!! I wanted to as I have some new developments. On Christmas day, my friends and I had a snow-football game... the field was REALLY covered in snow (probably over a foot) which messed up the game, BUT I managed to make a few interesting findings.

First of all, it should be noted that the weather has been unusually warm (around zero degrees Celsious or 32 Farenheit) and so the snow had melted slightly and frozen again, therefore being unusually hard.

The first thing we thought was "hey, let's run around and trample down the snow!" and so we did. I will always sink on snow but specially if I run. Soon enough I had snow up to my knees, I don't know how I managed that because the snow was not THAT high.

Then, after giving up on the running idea, we just stood around passing the football until everyone came. Guess what? I could actually stand on top of the snow for a couple of seconds. It wasn't for too long and it wasn't recently fallen snow, but I could stand on top of it. Then it broke and I fell through as nature will have me do every time.

Still, if you assume that elves are perhaps lighter than men, they might have been able to stay on top of the snow... if you add HUGE, paddle-like feet to these elves, they will most definetly do. Think about gigant duck feet :D

Does Tolkien ever talk about elvish FEET? if not, we should assume the duck-feet theory to be, at best, a good explanation.

[Celuien]

A new experiment!

I have spent the morning attempting to clear the driveway - I'm still only half done :rolleyes: - and during the clearing I was able to walk on the snow while leaving only a 1/4 inch footprint. This worked for walking with a heavy shoveful of snow and while running across the surface.

Data:

Snow depth - approximately 3.5 inches
Snow type - very heavy and dense, but neither frozen over nor melting

Unfortunately, in an area of lighter snow, I was unable to remain on the surface.

[Roa_Aoife]

Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread.

I contend that it's the spirit of flame. Hot air rises, after all. That's why we have hot air balloons.

[Rikae]

Funny to see this; I was just thinking of Legolas a couple days ago when I set out across the quad (in about 6-8 inches of dense, but not frozen, snow), and found that for about 2/3 of the steps my feet stayed on the snow's surface. I actually tested a few different types of steps (to the amusement of all in the vicinity, no doubt) and found:
1) Walking faster makes sinking more likely.
2) Trying to step lightly makes sinking more likely.
3) Denser snow is a slightly bluer shade of white - so perhaps elvish vision and thousands of years of experience have something to do with it?
4) Heel-to-toe steps sink less often than toe-to-heel.

Conclusion: it's a learned skill, and elves can make snow angels.

[alatar]

Conclusion: it's a learned skill, and elves can make snow angels.
Glad to see that you and Celuien have made in-depth analyses. Presently we have ice-encrusted snow, which you'd think would add to my chances of having a Legolas experience, but, alas, all that it does is creep out the dog as every footfall kerthunks! right through.

[Farael]

Ahhh lovely to see this thread still living.

With all the snow we've gotten this winter, I should try it out, but we've been having EXTREMELY cold weather. It's better now (about -20 C or -8 F) but for a while it was lower than -40 (which is the same C and F) and that's too cold to be outside, unless you MUST.

Prediction: Farael will sink right through the snow which is probably higher than the rim of his boot, and as he tries to get his foot out of the snow the snow will get inside the boot and he'll have to run back inside before his toes freeze.

[alatar]

Note that, if you walk on a light dusting of granular snow (not the wet sticky kind) that sits atop concrete or other hard surface, in a moderate to strong wind, you will leave no (or almost no) footprints. Maybe Legolas, and the elves entire, just knew where to place their slippers. ;)

[Folwren]

Well, now, we had an ice/snow storm a couple months ago, and everyone, including horses, could walk on top of it all without leaving any marks at all!

[Bêthberry]

Good to see such a sweet thread bumped up and maintained with light-hearted faire. It would be a grim bit of northern humour to see a jaundiced post consider the gravity, specific or otherwise, of yellow snow.

[alatar]

I'm restraining myself...and just how would a jaundiced eye perceive yellow snow? White and untainted? Anyone with some lemonade and a pair of appropriately tinted glasses/goggles can put this too to the test. ;)

Speaking of yellow eyes, do we know the color variation of the elven eye, and just what spectra are perceptible from the same? Elves see things that remain unseen to the human eye (moon letters, portends, running orcs at great distances, etc). Do elves see the thicker patches of snow, and again, just know where to step? Do they guard this secret to make themselves more interesting?

[Celuien]

While yellow snow's specific gravity and density may be higher than that of the surrounding white snow, I suspect that its other properties make it unsuitable for travel or snow angels. I believe that I am fortunate in having the ability to distinguish yellow from white easily. ;)

Roa's theory regarding the Elven spirit of flame suggests a new possibility. What if the Elves are able to slightly melt the snow as they stand on it, then allow it to refreeze in the cold temperatures? They could then skate on a film of ice (as I saw a few enthusiastic skaters at the edge of a nearby horse farm doing yesterday). I know that I can't tell the difference between frozen and non-frozen snow visually unless I look very closely. Perhaps the difference produced by this sleight-of-hand (or, more accuratelym slight of foot) was imperceptible to the non-Elf members of the Fellowship.

[Bêthberry]

Do elves see the thicker patches of snow, and again, just know where to step? Do they guard this secret to make themselves more interesting?


Well, if this be so, it suggests that their art or 'magic' leads them into a wee bit of deception, a quality which was recently attributed to the Ring on one of our serious threads. This could be interesting to explore as elves exist in the same dimension, simultaneously as they exist in ours, as that of the Ringwraiths. (Yes, there is a Tolkien comment about this, which I posted elsewhere, but my books are not at hand at the moment.) Maybe elves do have a different density than humans or hobbits?

Is Legolas' ability to walk upon snow (not water, now, snow), part of elven knowledge of the dark dimension? This is a very different take from that of Roa and Celuien's thoughts on the warming condition of the secret flame.


What if the Elves are able to slightly melt the snow as they stand on it, then allow it to refreeze in the cold temperatures? They could then skate on a film of ice (as I saw a few enthusiastic skaters at the edge of a nearby horse farm doing yesterday). I know that I can't tell the difference between frozen and non-frozen snow visually unless I look very closely. Perhaps the difference produced by this sleight-of-hand (or, more accuratelym slight of foot) was imperceptible to the non-Elf members of the Fellowship.

Now this raises in interesting possibility. Could elves have invented the game of hockey? Note, I am assuming that Celuien's friends at the horse farm were engaging in a game of shinny, but perhaps elves would limit themselves to the more elegant form of freeskate or figure skating. Not that Legolas would have been wearing blades on his slippers, although if swords could be fired and tempered to great sharpness, there's no reason why elves wouldn't have come up with the idea of attaching them to their slippers.

I seem to be developing two different lines of arguments here. The topic is so slippery.

[alatar]

Well, if this be so, it suggests that their art or 'magic' leads them into a wee bit of deception, a quality which was recently attributed to the Ring on one of our serious threads. This could be interesting to explore as elves exist in the same dimension, simultaneously as they exist in ours, as that of the Ringwraiths. (Yes, there is a Tolkien comment about this, which I posted elsewhere, but my books are not at hand at the moment.)
My very own thoughts have been skating down this very path! The Ringwraiths, it is said, 'see' the living as shadows on their minds, which only the noon day sun erases. Aragorn tells us that these same undead creatures fear fire. Now, I don't know much about overt or covert 'flames' nor much about dimensions, save the usual four, but I have read something about light.

We see in, obviously, what is called the visible spectrum (7000 - 4000 Angstroms). Bugs can see in ultraviolet, and so organisms aren't limited to the visible. The sun puts out much UV light, especially in the morning hours, as those that tan might have noted. Fire and other sources of heat emit infrared radiation. So, knowing these facts and what we've heard about the Nazgul, I would hypothesize that the Ringwraiths 'see' in both the infrared and ultraviolet spectra. This is why they dislike heat - it's like a blinding light - and minds are scrambled by noon (unlike mine which is done well before).

What does this have to do with elven snow angels? Well, if the elves can perceive that which we cannot, it may be that they too see in other spectra, and this permits them to see the ice and snow in a more favorable (and favoring) light.

[Roa_Aoife]

It seems to me that Nazgul cannot see visible, or "White", light. If they could, they would see the living as more than just shadows. You see, cameras designed specifically to pick up UV light and nothing else will almost always create "black and white" photos, or "shadowy" looking objects. This being the case, I could believe that Nazgul see in UV, but not in Infrared. The wavelengths are far too different and on opposite sides of the visible spectrum. It wouldn't make sense that they could pick up light of such widely different wavelengths, but not the wavelengths in between.

As for Elves using UV to see which snow can be stepped on, I'm afraid not. You see, snow relfects UV light so well that no difference can be seen between varying depths, etc, as you can see here (http://www.uvcorder.com/images/OSB%20Sheathing%20and%20Snow_resize.jpg). The picture on the left is with a regular camera, and the one on the right is taken with a UV camera. As you can see there are no differences in the snow. Also, this (http://www.naturfotograf.com/D2X/T0501222893.jpg) picture was taken under UV, and there is no difference in the snow.

However, polarized white light is plausible. Here (http://spacecheck.org/2006/02/27/nasa-analyzes-ice-cores-for-olympics/) is an article about NASA using the same method to prepare snow for the different events in the winter Olympics. Using polarized white light, they can tell how hard or soft the snow or ice is, and even how dense it is.

Though it is still possible that Elves could view UV light. Many birds do this. Here's a quote from an article on it:
Birds, though, see differently than we. They can see in the UV, which we cannot. Birds seem to use their UV vision much as the rest — finding prey and mates.

Also, like many reptiles, birds see four primary colors (that is, they have four types of color cones in their eyes that receive light), not merely three like bees or us . Their 4-color system may produce "a range of hues we cannot imagine," says Innes Cuthill, professor of behavioral ecology at the University of Bristol

So, it is entirely possible that Elves have a 4th type of cone in their eye, and infact see in 4 primary colors. Could explain the difference in their art.

[Roa_Aoife]

Of course, we are asuming that they can tell what snow can be walked on by sight. They may not be able to see it any differently they we do, but use other methods- how cold the ambient air is, whether the snow is icey or powdery, and they use the proper shifting of their weight to walk on it. Their natural lightness and thin-ness would be a great factor involved.

Maybe we're just overthinking it.

[Farael]

. This being the case, I could believe that Nazgul see in UV, but not in Infrared. The wavelengths are far too different and on opposite sides of the visible spectrum. It wouldn't make sense that they could pick up light of such widely different wavelengths, but not the wavelengths in between.
Ah, but Ms. Roa (or is it Ms. Aoife? :p) you are wrong. We indeed have cones in our eyes that "absorb" certain specific wavelenghts. Another thing that absorbs specific wavelenghts is the pigment Chlorophyll in plants. If we see the absorption spectra of this pigment, it absorbs well in both ends of the visible light spectrum, but there is a clear dip in the middle. This light reflected comes out as green, which is why plants are green.

And do you know what else is green? the unhealthy green light that Minas Morghul emanates. What is present in Minas Morghul in a higher concentration than anything else?

Nazghul.

Therefore, what can this green sheen be correlated to? Again, the presence of a Nazghul. So Nazghul somehow emit a green light... furthermore, the light wavelenghts of visible light fall right in between UV and IR lenghts.

Therefore I postulate that Nazghul had cones in their eyes that had evolved somehow from Chlorophyll, although this "dip" in the middle of the absorbance was expanded to almost all of the visible light spectrum (thus they only see "light" as shadows in another context) while they see both UV and IR. A side-effect of this is that they also glow with a green colour.

Now, if you are still sticking with me here, when Gandalf talks about the Nazghul seeing Glorfindel he says that they saw him "as he is in the other side". This "other side" therefore can only be seen through UV or IR radiation.

Furthermore, we all know elves are "hot" (if not, ask any Movie-Legolas fans) thus there is conclusive evidence that whatever this "other side is" elves emit IR radiation in it, also known as heat.

This confirms beyond any reasonable doubt the theory proposed by our very own Celuien, the elves indeed melted the snow, let it re-freeze and then walked on ice.

[alatar]

It seems to me that Nazgul cannot see visible, or "White", light. If they could, they would see the living as more than just shadows. You see, cameras designed specifically to pick up UV light and nothing else will almost always create "black and white" photos, or "shadowy" looking objects. This being the case, I could believe that Nazgul see in UV, but not in Infrared. The wavelengths are far too different and on opposite sides of the visible spectrum. It wouldn't make sense that they could pick up light of such widely different wavelengths, but not the wavelengths in between.
We could assume that, as once being human, the Ringwraiths could see in the visible spectrum, but as they began to fade, losing their physical eyes, they learned to sense radiation in other spectrums. Now, to say that the Nazgul could see in both IR and UV might be wild speculation, but I have seen that others have created tools (cameras) that do the same, as noted here. (http://www.naturfotograf.com/UV_IR_rev00.html#top_page)

I'd sleep much better at night knowing that one of these cameras was watching over that foggy area next to my house, as one never knows what could come creeping out that might remain unseen until it was too late...

[Bêthberry]

Interesting hypotheses here.

So, IF elves and Ringwraiths have this enhanced visual acuity, could this possibility suggest that orcs--who are twisted or perverted elves--have maintained this ability? Would they in fact 'see' better/farther/faster than the armies of men they fight or simply see differently?

Or would this enhanced ability be lost in the process of perverting them? I find it difficult to envision an "orc angel", perhaps because I find it difficult to conceive of orcs at play.

[Elmo]

I'm sure 'keen sighted orcs' have been mentioned somewhere...

[alatar]

So, IF elves and Ringwraiths have this enhanced visual acuity, could this possibility suggest that orcs--who are twisted or perverted elves--have maintained this ability? Would they in fact 'see' better/farther/faster than the armies of men they fight or simply see differently?

Or would this enhanced ability be lost in the process of perverting them? I find it difficult to envision an "orc angel", perhaps because I find it difficult to conceive of orcs at play.
Orcs do 'see differently,' as noted, and like the elves see better in the dark than humans. However, in regards to all things winter, I think that, when possible, orcs avoided snow and cold as we don't read that orcs crossed the frozen Brandywine back in 2911 (Third Age), nor read of the existence of 'snow orcs' even amongst the writings or the songs of the Lossoth. Anyway, so I'm guessing that the orcs have little to no 'snow-sense.' Even if they had the ability to see the denser patches of snow, or however the elves are doing it, I think that they would purposely sink to show their contempt for nature.

Also there's that common saying in the Shire used to note that the probability of the event is small to zero, which also speaks of orcs and snow, which is "...like a snowball fight's chance in Mordor."

[alatar]

Somewhat related to the thread: Each day I pass by a neighbor's yard. This lawn is immaculate; green beyond green, each blade of grass the same length as the other, no weeds or even a different species of blade, no blight, patches or stain. Truly an example of what Lothlorien lawn care must be like. The retiree and his wife work on the yard incessantly; it seems so precious to them that when we as a family walk by, I steer my family to the other side of the road so that my children will not mar this grassy carpet. I'd take a picture, but in good conscience (I've had one transplanted in for a 30-day trial), I'd have to explain why, and going into the whole 'snow angel and elves' thing with a stranger - yet neighbor - can't bode well for my standing in the community.

But anyway, it got me to thinking.

Somewhere in LotR, it is said that the slipper-footed Legolas's footfalls barely bruise, if touch at all, the blades of grass upon which he steps. This, of course, is contrasted with the iron-shod orcs that leave a scathing destructive trail. Now, in my backyard, where the grass is pounded down daily by the constant rolling of battery-driven vehicles - that which isn't dug up by the dog - I could walk across the grass and leave no trace. However, in the neighbor's yard, I assume that I could, with a slight press of my finger, leave a print that could be used to track me down.

The question is, then, could Legolas cross this grass undetected, and if so, could he make a 'grass angel' on the same?


**For those of you apt to test this hypothesis, please get the permission of the lawn's owner, as some folk take yard work a bit too seriously.

[Ataralasse]

It's threads like this one that make me glad I joined the Barrow-Downs. With such a limited focus, all kinds of ideas pop up that would never have occurred to me on another forum.

'The Custard Theory' still cracks me up. I just love that name. :D

[Bêthberry]

The question is, then, could Legolas cross this grass undetected, and if so, could he make a 'grass angel' on the same?


**For those of you apt to test this hypothesis, please get the permission of the lawn's owner, as some folk take yard work a bit too seriously.

Frankly, I doubt Legolas could have the same affect on lawn as on snow, due to the very different natures of the media through which he would be passing.

The wind created by his passing would produce several consequences. First, the frictional drag could in fact create higher temperatures than the grass could sustain, with the effect that Legolas would leave a trail of burnt grass tips marking his path. One possibility.

A second would be the effect simply of the sway in the grass caused by the aerodynamic force of his body through the air. This sway in the grass could then create an ever-so-slight beaten path in those areas over which he flew/trod--flod? Yes, perhaps elves do flod. Furthermore, turbulance is a natural effect of movement through air. This could in fact produce a random pattern of grass damage. Not crop circles I would think, but still erratic patches where the grass has been bent.

Either way, I think Legolas and other elves had best graze elsewhere than your neighbours' lawn.

[alatar]

Frankly, I doubt Legolas could have the same affect on lawn as on snow, due to the very different natures of the media through which he would be passing.
True, frozen water and grass are somewhat different. Grass contains a lot of water, but also, unlike H2O, it contains cellulose, which can be found in glasses of water when a natural laxative is prepared, but that has nothing to do with elves as far as we can tell.



The wind created by his passing would produce several consequences. First, the frictional drag could in fact create higher temperatures than the grass could sustain, with the effect that Legolas would leave a trail of burnt grass tips marking his path. One possibility.
Have considered this, and have noted that tornadoes drive, at the very least, particles across grass at very high speeds. I've seen pictures of the devastation left in the wake of a tornado, but have never noted any fires causes by the tornado that weren't generated by other means (downed power lines, petrol/natural gas leaks, etc). So I'm not sure that Legolas's passage would create enough heat to singe the grass tips. Even if it did, not sure how the same would play out on the snow, as one, at the very least, would see meltings where Legolas's slippers touched the frozen water, and so would negate the observation that the elf prince left little to no evidence of his passing.

Also, if enough elves singed enough grass, as surely the First Age elves would have done to a greater degree, we would have seen a response from Yavanna. On the other hand again, we never did discover the purpose of the ent-wives...

On even yet another hand, didn't the touch of Lúthien Tinúviel cause the spontaneous appearance of flowers? So maybe there is something to the toes of fire theory, as some plants, such as Jack pines (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10319-118692--,00.html), require fire to grow (well, to be seeded). Were the elves the 'honey bees' of the forest and grassy plains?


A second would be the effect simply of the sway in the grass caused by the aerodynamic force of his body through the air. This sway in the grass could then create an ever-so-slight beaten path in those areas over which he flew/trod--flod? Yes, perhaps elves do flod. Furthermore, turbulance is a natural effect of movement through air. This could in fact produce a random pattern of grass damage. Not crop circles I would think, but still erratic patches where the grass has been bent.
I'm sure that elven flodding is well-documented in story and song:


The leaves were long, the grass was singed,
The hemlock-umbels tall and flaring,
And in the glade the flames did binge,
On grass and and sticks and nightingale wings blazing.
Tinuviel was flodding there
To the beat of a drummer unseen,
And light of fire was in her hair,
And she danced like her backside was catching.



Either way, I think Legolas and other elves had best graze elsewhere than your neighbours' lawn.
In my neck of the woods, anyone looking like Paris Hilton prancing upon one's lawn is just asking for trouble.

[Bêthberry]

Let me tell you 'bout the birds and the bees
And the flowers and the trees
And the moon up above
And a thing called e ... e... e ... elves


Were the elves the 'honey bees' of the forest and grassy plains?


I think you are on something here, alatar. While your survey of the effects of Seventh Age tornados fails to uncover any burnt blades, we do know that many processes in Middle earth have faded. We also know that with elves, their fëa gradually burns away their hröa (possibly a speedier form of composting?), so clearly they have an excess of energy, once could say. Why, I could even rewrite Einstein's famous equation for this if only I knew how to make the nifty raised square sign.

So great is this energy in elves that it is well to remember the fate of Fëanor, whose very name signifies this process. Remember that his hröa was completely consumed by his fëa upon his death. I don't have to mention how hot this must have made the Great Elf, as we all know what temperatures are needed to cremate a human body. Now, if this was true of Fëanor, it must be true at least in some measure for Legolas, who is undoubtedly the hottest elf of the Third Age.
He was, after all, instrumental in the regreening of Ithilien--making it the fairest land in all the west--after the fall of Sauron, so he must have had an extraordinary hand at pollinating. Perhaps the lack of burnt blades could simply be attributed to his artful use of withdrawing his fëa so that his hröa as well as the grass was not consumed.

[Thenamir]

The wind created by his passing would produce several consequences. First, the frictional drag could in fact create higher temperatures than the grass could sustain, with the effect that Legolas would leave a trail of burnt grass tips marking his path.

I think that you’d have more than just singed grass tips. If you have air moving fast enough to cause that level of heat via friction, you have an influx of enough oxygen to feed a smoldering grass blade into full flame, reducing it to ash in scant milliseconds. That’s why folks trying to start a fire using the old boy-scout method will blow on the smoldering tinder to coax a flame from it. You wouldn’t have singed tips – at the least you’d have blackened footprints, and possible forest fires.

I am reminded of an account I read some years ago of a reporter taken for a ride in an SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance jet who was warned not to touch the windshield once they hit Mach 2 (approximately 1500 mph or 2450 kph) – the temperature of the glass was high enough to blister the skin. Even so, I doubt that even that speed could have started a fire.

Further, if elves could generate that level of moving air, what’s to prevent them from actual flight? If they can “flod” over grass without harming or even marking it, it would surely be a small step to actual flight. I think there must be some other mechanism by which the elves negated the effects of their weight on snow or grass.

At the risk of bringing Treknobabble into a Tolkien website, I used to think that the elves lack of effect on snow or grass involved a partial negation of the effects of gravity – not so much as to become weightless, otherwise they’d just float away – but enough that their weight does not press down with enough force to mark their passing. However, this theory has as many problems as the wind/friction idea, because what’s to prevent elves from exerting this power just a bit more and achieving actual flight? Or at least the ability to hover over a battle out of reach of swords? (Wow, think of the advantages of a battalion of air-elves at an altitude of 500 feet or so, shooting arrows into a ground-bound division of orcs?)

[Ataralasse]

Hmm ... well, I always had this idea that Elf bodies were light while their spirits made up the difference. So they could dance on a rope stretched across a river, but put their spirit as well as their body strength behind blows or landing on someone. Their spirit (is that their fëa? ::ignorant:: ) is what makes them quick, have high endurance, &c., &c., &c.

Wow, think of the advantages of a battalion of air-elves at an altitude of 500 feet or so, shooting arrows into a ground-bound division of orcs?

Fantastic! :D

[alatar]

I am reminded of an account I read some years ago of a reporter taken for a ride in an SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance jet who was warned not to touch the windshield once they hit Mach 2 (approximately 1500 mph or 2450 kph) – the temperature of the glass was high enough to blister the skin. Even so, I doubt that even that speed could have started a fire.
Think that we're talking about 'specific heat,' or 'heat capacity.' It's been said that, when you're baking/cooking, you're not as concerned about touching the thing that you're making as much as the thing that you're using to make it. In other words, the cake may be hot, but the pan will surely burn you. This metaphor comes up a lot when people discuss firewalking - walking barefoot across burning coals without harm to the skin. Many love to attribute this feat to magic and mysticism and the alteration of quantum auras (gotta use the word quantum to give it that new science smell), but it's simply physics. Hot burning wood 'holds' less heat than would an iron plate set across the same coals. You'll get away unscathed walking the coals, but not the plate.

Anyway, so even if the elves had hot feet, not sure if this heat would more than wilt the grass tips. But that's conjecture.


Further, if elves could generate that level of moving air, what’s to prevent them from actual flight? If they can “flod” over grass without harming or even marking it, it would surely be a small step to actual flight. I think there must be some other mechanism by which the elves negated the effects of their weight on snow or grass.
"That's one small flod for Nóm, one giant flod for elfkind..."


At the risk of bringing Treknobabble into a Tolkien website, I used to think that the elves lack of effect on snow or grass involved a partial negation of the effects of gravity – not so much as to become weightless, otherwise they’d just float away – but enough that their weight does not press down with enough force to mark their passing. However, this theory has as many problems as the wind/friction idea, because what’s to prevent elves from exerting this power just a bit more and achieving actual flight? Or at least the ability to hover over a battle out of reach of swords?
Problem with anti-gravity - physics aside (we ARE discussing elves ;)) - is how do these floating ones swing a sword, hoist a wine barrel or taunt a Dwarf? All, or at least two of the three, require the elf's feet to be firmly pushing against Arda in the equal and opposite direction as the action being performed (if I got that right). Just try to swordfight on wet ice...actually, don't, as that would fall under the 'that's silly and you most likely will get harmed or dead, and so don't do it' list of suggestions best disregarded.

(Wow, think of the advantages of a battalion of air-elves at an altitude of 500 feet or so, shooting arrows into a ground-bound division of orcs?)
These aren't Peter Jackson's elves, are they? ;)

[Bêthberry]

Many love to attribute this feat to magic and mysticism and the alteration of quantum auras (gotta use the word quantum to give it that new science smell), but it's simply physics.

Any mention of auras deserves a reply from me.


Anyway, so even if the elves had hot feet, not sure if this heat would more than wilt the grass tips. But that's conjecture.

Oh now I'm really confused. There's a product called "Hot Foot" for roof tops and buttresses, etc, designed to keep pigeons away. I believe it is filled with chili powder, which, when stepped on by said avians, results in high stepping birds who lite out of the place quickly.


I think there must be some other mechanism by which the elves negated the effects of their weight on snow or grass.

Thinking about chili in "Hot Foot" made me reconsider this comment by Thenamir. What exactly happens to grass when it is stepped on or bent? Could it not be possible for elven healing arts to be able to reverse almost simultaneously the damage made by stepping on grass? Their feet could possibly be coated with some sort of healing herb that would, um, reforge the broken blades. If King's Foil heals people, perhaps there is a similar herb* to heal plants.

*Or possibly the same effect could be achieved by the delicate nature of elven foot sweat. Elves eat lembas. Perhaps some of the extraordinary qualities of the lembas are exuded in elven sweat?

EDIT: Given elven sensibilities, anyone offended by the use of the word "sweat" could substitute for it the word "perspiration."

[Rumil]

Surely Orcs sweat, Dwarves perspire, Elves glow !! :)

[Bêthberry]

Surely Orcs sweat, Dwarves perspire, Elves glow !! :)

You may be on to something, Rumil. If elves don't have this physiological air conditioning system in their body, they are indeed very hot properties. No wonder their fëa gradually burns away their hröa. And here I thought, after reading Dickens, that it was only extreme alcoholic consumption that could cause self-immolation.

[alatar]

Getting back to the somewhat original issue, I may have figured out how Legolas successfully walked over the snow without leaving a print.

What if the souls of his slippers weren't as small as we tend to think? Someone in the Fellowship noted that Legolas wore slippers. To me, these are light duty shoes that barely cover the feet. The area of these shoes would be no larger than anyone would think odd.

So we've been working diligently trying to figure out how to decrease the pressure Legolas exerts on the snow, where pressure = weight (force)/area, and thinking that the shoes were normal size, tried to reduce the elf's weight.

But what if the slippers had an area three to five times that which is expected? Think snowshoes. The pressure on the snow would decrease linearly as the area increased. If Leggy weighed in at 150 pounds, increasing the area of his slippers 3-5 fold drops his virtual weight to 50-30 pounds.

But you're saying, "Come on, alatar, the Fellowship may have been snowblind, but they weren't totally blind. Surely someone would have noticed that large slippers..."

Would they? What if Legolas (and all other elves) carried snowshoes made of Aerogel (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293825,00.html)? Would anyone see what Legolas had on his feet in the snow? If the soles were given some type of pattern that looked natural, would even a tracker know that an elf walked that way?

We truly live in a magical world, and this is only 2007. What wonders will our children see? :)

[alatar]

We had rain a day or two ago, which is only unusual because the temperature has been in the single digits (Fahrenheit). It had warmed up enough to pour, though even the hard rain couldn't wash away the snow that has been falling, off and on, for what seems like months.

Thankfully, yesterday, the temperature dropped back down to where it belongs, that is, in the mid-teens.

So, while waiting for the bus to arrive this morning, the kids occupied themselves with running across the snow, which they were amazed that they could do. Yesterday, they sunk to the ankles; today (due to the subzero temperature and rain-induced frozen crust) they barely left foot prints on the snow.

[Rumil]

Nice one Alatar - or do you have elvish kids? ;)

[Galadriel]

Sounds generic, but if they can gather enough strength to hammer away at swords and shields, I'm pretty sure they can press their backs to snow. After all, they're elves. They might just consider it a work of art, and when they're done they'll stand up and say 'Whee! Snow art! Now let's rebuild Gondolin." :p

Though one thing did fox me:

"...and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow - an Elf." Unless, of course, he meant those tiny leaves that grow from the ground :p

[Alfirin]

Getting back to the somewhat original issue, I may have figured out how Legolas successfully walked over the snow without leaving a print.

What if the souls of his slippers weren't as small as we tend to think? Someone in the Fellowship noted that Legolas wore slippers. To me, these are light duty shoes that barely cover the feet. The area of these shoes would be no larger than anyone would think odd.

So we've been working diligently trying to figure out how to decrease the pressure Legolas exerts on the snow, where pressure = weight (force)/area, and thinking that the shoes were normal size, tried to reduce the elf's weight.

But what if the slippers had an area three to five times that which is expected? Think snowshoes. The pressure on the snow would decrease linearly as the area increased. If Leggy weighed in at 150 pounds, increasing the area of his slippers 3-5 fold drops his virtual weight to 50-30 pounds.

But you're saying, "Come on, alatar, the Fellowship may have been snowblind, but they weren't totally blind. Surely someone would have noticed that large slippers..."

Would they? What if Legolas (and all other elves) carried snowshoes made of Aerogel (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293825,00.html)? Would anyone see what Legolas had on his feet in the snow? If the soles were given some type of pattern that looked natural, would even a tracker know that an elf walked that way?

We truly live in a magical world, and this is only 2007. What wonders will our children see? :)

Another point to consider is that we may be thinking from a somewhat too modern persepective with regard to what "slippers" is defined as. If we assume that ME clothing technology is roughly Dark/Middle Ages, then the slippers would not be all that similar to any sort of shoe we were familiar with. Back then slippers were heel-less, in fact in a certain sense they were usually sole-less (that is they often had no seperate piece of material added onto the bottom to thicken and re-enforce it) Slippers at that time would have been less like shoes as we understand them, but more along the lines of thick cloth/leather socks or foot gloves, whose "sole" was often created by he wearer, out of whatever dirt and junk they would walk on as they wore them (this is why slippers were usually inside wear for the well off, the comparitively smooth stone and wood floors were pretty much the only place you could wear slippers and not shred them to bits) so Legolas's steps would be less like those of someone walking on snow in boots and more like someone walking on snow in socks/barefoot. Usually your bare foot is a lot better at weight distribution than your shod one since the hard rigid sole usually confines the force to a smaller area (it's sort of a lesser version of the same force equasions that explain why a woman wearing stilletto heels can suddenly start leaving hammer holes in a wood floor whereever she walks if she is not careful) This would not explain all of it (even a barefoot person would leave tracks in the snow) but it might explain some of it.