What's the Worst Thing Characters had to Face in Middle Earth? [Archive]

Farael

11-26-2005, 03:12 AM

I may say something a little out of the ordinary, but I think that the worst thing Frodo faced was not the Ring itself, but rather the 'knowledge' that even if he saved the Middle-Earth he would not be alive to enjoy it. Up until the last moment when he hesitated due to the power of the Ring itself, he was willing to sacrifice himself and probably his best friend to save The Shire and everyone else he loved, even when he 'knew' he would not be there to enjoy it.

Ultimately he was saved by the Eagles if I'm not mistaken, but even then I got the feeling that although he did survive his Quest, his outlook on the world had changed and he never felt trully happy (at least until he reached Valinor, that I don't know)

Also, I would like to offer my view of the worst thing that one of my favourite characters had to endure. And I'm guessing you will both agree with me and admit that you had never thought about it before (yes, I'm getting cocky)
But I believe Fangorn (the Ent 'leader') had to face a terrible choice. His people were not used to make any kind of "rush" choices yet they decided to confront Saruman in "a hurry" I believe that for him and the other Ents making the choice of going to War in such a short time for their standards must have been a REAL difficult one to make.

Hope I got you thinking over that one!! if not, at least I tried

Farel

luthien-elvenprincess

11-26-2005, 08:29 AM

I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self. Many of them gave up much of what might have been better for them personally or what they wanted to do in order to put the betterment of Middle Earth before themselves.
Many of them did the right thing because it was the right thing to do in order for future generations to survive...a favorite quote from LOTR sums it up for me:

It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them. Frodo to Sam

Scripture says: greater love has no man than this, that one would lay down his life for another (can't remember the exact quote and my Bible isn't handy here at work!)

littlemanpoet

11-26-2005, 04:36 PM

Frodo -> The Ring

He had to overcome the lust for the Ring. Unfortunately, he was doomed from the beginning because the Ring was bound up in his own desires. He did the best that could be expected of him under the circumstances, and I don't think anybody could say any better of him than that. What made this the worst thing? ....as compared to losing the Shire, for example? Or do you see that as tied up in the Ring? I notice, Kuru, that a theme running through at least two of your three examples is that the evil the characters faced was far greater than themeselves, more powerful than they could possibly hope to overmatch. Do we ever face that kind of thing? ... at least by analogy? Or is that mythical?

I think that the worst thing Frodo faced was not the Ring itself, but rather the 'knowledge' that even if he saved the Middle-Earth he would not be alive to enjoy it.So was this mental anguish? Something deeper? How did it affect Frodo?

I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self. Many of them gave up much of what might have been better for them personally or what they wanted to do in order to put the betterment of Middle Earth before themselves. This has a sense (to me) built in of being its own reward. Do you see it that way? You see, it suggests that they never lost hope, which means that it wasn't really that bad, because even if they couldn't have it for themselves, they received back to themselves a sense of having done well and becoming part of those who are giving a great gift to those who remain. This doesn't seem bad or sad, yet somehow, in Tolkien this has a sense of being bittersweet and filled with Loss (capital 'l'). Why is that?

Boromir88

11-27-2005, 12:40 AM

I have to think that Frodo's biggest problems lie deeper than the Ring. No doubt the Ring was extremely harsh on Frodo and caused him a lot of suffering; both physically and mentally.

However, I think Frodo's biggest problem he faces is actually taking the Ring, which takes great courage. No doubt the actual journey for him to overcome is tough and harsh work, however the act of taking it upon himself to do it, I think was the biggest thing Frodo had to decide.

Frodo is always the type of person to put others above himself. He makes the ultimate sacrifice of staying back in the Shire and living peacefully, living as he always had, vs. taking the ring to Mount Doom and knowing what lies ahead. Frodo was aware of what he had to face (maybe not to the extent he faced, but he knew it wasn't gong to be easy), so I think DECIDING to do it is the biggest thing Frodo had to overcome. And he struggles with it well into the story.

On one side he has going back to the Shire, and just letting the "greater" and "wiser" people handle the ring, this task is too daunting for a hobbit like himself. On the other, he takes the ring and carries the fate of Middle-earth, and all it's races.

Then once he makes the decision he is faced to sticking with it. Many chances he considers turning back and wishes he never came in contact with the Ring, and these are the biggest struggles he has to overcome. The Ring makes it more difficult for him, but I think the real problem was to decide to take the Ring and bear the fate of middle-earth on his shoulders, and then sticking to that decision.

Farael

11-27-2005, 01:46 AM

Well Boromir, you have some valid points in there, but I have to say I disagree. I can't get you the exact quote because my LOTR books are in Spanish, but in more than one instance Frodo says that the ring was given to him and therefore it is his obligation to bear with it. So in a way, I think that Frodo believes that someone (or something) larger than himself chose his destiny and that it included carrying the ring on the journey. Even if it was a hopeless journey. But as I said before, I believe (and it might just be me) that his greatest difficulty was knowing that even if he succeeded he would probably never come back to see the results of his effort.

Luthien makes a very valid point when she says that the most difficult thing for all the characters was to overcome the "love of self". That's in a way, what I mean. Frodo is making the ultimate sacrifice a living creature can make, namely his or her own life. Yet instead of falling in a battle which takes a comparatively short time (after all, a single battle cannot take longer than a whole day, specially when you are fighting with swords and arrows) Frodo faces a long agony which lasts for months, since he leaves The Shire up until he destroys the ring. As I said, he is saved in the end, but Frodo did not know that would happen and to know that he would die if he failed and die if he succeeded must have been the kind of mental anguish that would drive a man crazy.

Also, I think Boromir said that Frodo could have let the "greater" men (or elves) take care of this whole mess, yet by being able to overcome this anguish Frodo shows that he is as great or even greater than all of the other characters.

I guess this topic is fairly personal, as a good story lends itself ot many interpretations and there's no "right" way to interpret a story, yet that's what I think regarding Frodo and The Ring.

Boromir88

11-27-2005, 07:10 AM

I guess this topic is fairly personal, as a good story lends itself ot many interpretations and there's no "right" way to interpret a story, yet that's what I think regarding Frodo and The Ring.
Yeah, there really is no right or wrong, it's just fun to hear ideas and find things you never considered before. :D

I'm going to expand on my post about Frodo above, and say something kind of similar to Luthien's "love of self," and that another thing most of the characters (perhaps not all but certainly The Fellowship, Denethor, Theoden...etc) all struggle with is hope.

To lose hope is to lose everything, if you don't have hope what do you have? And I think a lot of the characters struggle with hope.

If my post about Frodo wasn't exactly clear, I hope this will make it better, but I was getting at that Frodo had to battle with losing hope. After deciding to take the Ring to Mount Doom (he may have seen it as his "fate," but he still makes the decision himself), he has to struggle with sticking with that decision. The Ring is sort of a speed bump (grant it a very big speed bump) in the road. Frodo knows the road will be difficult, and the Ring certainly has a big part to play in that. However, despite the Ring, Frodo still has to endure wounds from the Witch-King, Shelob, he has to make the long physical journey to Mordor and into Mount Doom, he has to deal with Gollum, and the Ring is like another bump in the road. The real battle Frodo has to face is losing hope. To turn back and "throw in the towel" so to say. To think, that it's not possible anymore, and he can't do it. When he does lose hope, Sam is there to give it back to him. So, where I was trying to go in the post above (perhaps I didn't really explain it well I think) was Frodo biggest thing to overcome would be hope....to lose it, or not? If he loses hope, it's over...but with hope, anything's possible.

There are also other characters who struggle with losing hope, or not losing it. For some examples Denethor. He went mad and burned himself because he lost hope. He believed it was all over, Sauron was on his doorstep, and victory over him was no longer possible. In Denethor's case, his battle with "hope," he loses it, and it causes his downfall.

Then we have Theoden who triumphs. Instead of going mad and saying it's the end of the world like Denethor, when he's faced with his kingdom on the brink of destruction, Theoden puts his hope and trust with Gandalf and Aragorn. Believing that they will lead him through this. Scattered through The King of the Golden Hall and Helm's Deep, we hear "Now there is hope of victory," and "hope in Gandalf, he knows what he's doing."

Boromir loses hope, but what makes him different from Denethor is he realizes his mistakes. Boromir didn't think the Ring should go to a halfling, he saw no "hope in victory" in giving the Ring to Frodo and waltzing into Mordor. So, he falls and tries to take the Ring. But, what's different from his paps is he realizes he has failed and he doesn't lose hope for Gondor..."Go to Minas Tirith and save my people." On his deathbed he puts his hope in Aragorn to save his City.

Gimli was told by Galadriel when he received three strands of her hair that on one path there's darkness, the other path lies hope. That he would have to chose which way to go when the time comes, and if he follows with hope, his hand should flow with gold yet gold will have no dominion over him.

In the Siege of Gondor, Gandalf encourages the men to continue to fight, and continue to have hope.

So, basically, after all this, I'm saying to add on with Luthien's "love of self," that at one point in time all the characters have to struggle with hope. Do they give in to Sauron and his dominating power? Or do they put their hope in faith in people like Gandalf...or Frodo and think that there still is a chance for victory?

Now I'm all "hoped" out. :p

luthien-elvenprincess

11-27-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by luthien-elvenprincess
I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self. Many of them gave up much of what might have been better for them personally or what they wanted to do in order to put the betterment of Middle Earth before themselves.

Quote:
Originally posted by LMP

This has a sense (to me) built in of being its own reward. Do you see it that way? You see, it suggests that they never lost hope, which means that it wasn't really that bad, because even if they couldn't have it for themselves, they received back to themselves a sense of having done well and becoming part of those who are giving a great gift to those who remain. This doesn't seem bad or sad, yet somehow, in Tolkien this has a sense of being bittersweet and filled with Loss (capital 'l'). Why is that?

I suppose overcoming self is rewarding in itself...but the fact of accomplishing it would be so much more than a mere feel-good-about-yourself award. There was no guarantee that their goal would be accomplished even after all their sacrificing, so that "reward" wasn't really theirs. To me, the greater reward received would be the knowledge that you are actively fulfilling the plan for your life. I don't mean the plan you, yourself, choose for your life...but the one for which you were born, the one that someone greater (God) planned for you. The satisification and sense of completion that comes from this connection is reward.

Farael says:
So in a way, I think that Frodo believes that someone (or something) larger than himself chose his destiny and that it included carrying the ring on the journey

Also, the opportunities to lose hope and give up along the way were numerous and almost overwhelming for LOTR characters...yet, over and over, they made the choice to deny self. It seems that everytime one of the characters wanted to give up, something happened to renew their hope and courage or someone else helped to refresh their resolve.

For example, in The Land of Shadow chapter:
Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him.

To live this type of life...to continue making choices to do the right thing time after time, one needs hopeful reminders and assurances of something beyond self. So, it is true LMP, that hope need never be lost if you consistently make the choices that keep it alive.

davem

11-27-2005, 08:19 AM

I don't mean the plan you, yourself, choose for your life...but the one for which you were born, the one that someone greater (God) planned for you. The satisification and sense of completion that comes from this connection is reward.

But God/Eru is not 'present' for Frodo. He knows nothing about anything 'beyond the circles of the World'. It seems that Frodo is constantly 'backed into a corner' & the choices he makes are between going ahead with the Quest or just giving up & losing everything. He has no concept of 'Heaven' or that he is 'serving Eru'. In a real sense his case is worse than that of Job - Job at least knew of & had faith in God (petty & tetchy as the God of the book of Job may be).

What I'm saying is that any sense of 'satisfaction' & 'completion' is absent from Frodo's experience during his life in Middle-earth. Eru may as well not exist at all - if Middle-earth was an entirely 'pagan' world, or a world which came into being 'randomly' Frodo would be in the same psychological position. He does nothing for Eru - he acts only for others around him. Even when he goes to the Havens he doesn't see it as a 'stage' in a journey towards 'Heaven' or in his service to God. The end of Frodo's journey (in his own mind) is death. Tolkien suggested in one of his letters that the journey into the West may be read as an allegory (yes, he uses that word) of death.

As somene recently suggested to me, Frodo is like one of the young men of Tolkien's generation who went to fight in WW1. Most of them went not because they felt they were living out God's plan for them, but because they felt obligated to 'do their bit' for their country, their family & ther friends. Many of them lost their lives, their health, their hope, but they felt they had 'done the right thing'. Like Frodo, they had given up the things they loved & cared for, not for God, or for a heavenly reward, but simply 'so that others could keep them'.

Kuruharan

11-27-2005, 12:53 PM

What made this the worst thing? ....as compared to losing the Shire, for example? Or do you see that as tied up in the Ring?

Frodo succumbing to the Ring (sooner than he did) would have meant utter failure for everyone. The Shire would have been lost anyway. It would have been turned into a strip mine if Frodo had failed or done nothing. The Shire was gone for Frodo.

Do we ever face that kind of thing? ... at least by analogy?

Yes.

However, I think Frodo's biggest problem he faces is actually taking the Ring, which takes great courage.

I'm afraid I must disagree with this. Gandalf says (when he is talking about Pippin joining the Fellowship) that Frodo did not really know what he was getting himself into. While it was undoubtedly an act of courage, it was not done with foreknowledge.

Frodo had to battle with losing hope.

I'm not clear that by the end (particularly after his Cirith Ungol experience) Frodo had hope. I think it was more of an act of will on his part to continue the journey and resist the Ring without hope.

Farael

11-27-2005, 01:55 PM

Well, I'm afraid I must disagree with Kuruharan. I think he still had hope, but of the 'subconscious' type. What I mean by that is that his senses told him "it's all over" yet his heart knew that he had to go on. Of course it takes a HUGE will to follow your heart when your brain says you've lost already, but I think Frodo never lost hope. If he had, he would have hidden the ring and run away, yet he kept on going, in spite of the pain, thirst and hunger (oh yeah, and in spite of all those lovely fellows known as "orcs")

Regarding Davem's comments, I don't know if Frodo was aware of a higher being than himself, yet he was definetly aware of a sense of destiny. I don't know who Frodo believed had set his destiny but I'm as certain as one can be with an interpretation of a story (which is not really very certain) that Frodo felt it was his destiny to go on with the Quest to destroy the ring. I can't remember the exact quote, but I do remember Frodo saying in a couple of instances that the Ring was his burden to carry (and he did not only say it out of the selfishness the ring itself imposed on the ring bearers, I think he really meant what he said)
Still, I do agree that if he went on with that destiny it was because he wanted to help others and not himself. As I said before, he did not think he would survive, he was making that sacrifice for everyone else and THAT (to me) is the worst thing Frodo had to face.

On a bit of a sidenote, I love this kind of discussions! =)

Farael

davem

11-27-2005, 02:19 PM

Well, I'm afraid I must disagree with Kuruharan. I think he still had hope, but of the 'subconscious' type. What I mean by that is that his senses told him "it's all over" yet his heart knew that he had to go on.

Possibly he did. One thing I recall from HoM-e is a passage from an early draft of 'Many Partings'. At the funeral feast for Theoden Gandalf declares:

and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire & Samwise his servant. And the Bards & the Minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthan Uluithiad, Endurance beyond Hope & Hope unquenchable.'

'Endurance beyond Hope' is, I think, pretty apposite for Frodo, as is 'Hope unquenchable' for Sam. In short, I think Kuruharan is correct about Frodo - but, as I say, that's something that must remain a matter of opinion....

Lalwendë

11-27-2005, 02:48 PM

I think most of the characters had to face terrors, whether psychological or physical - it is a book about "the inevitability of death". Just one of the worst dilemmas/upsets faced was that faced by Elrond, Arwen and Aragorn. This is no simple love story, Tolkien shows just how difficult this was for all concerned. At the heart of the story of this trio of characters is the fact that if Arwen stays in Middle-earth she will become mortal, and that has greater consequences than the fact that she will one day die, it also means that this is a permanent sundering of her relationship with her father without any hope of being reunited after death.

Whichever decision Arwen makes, she is doomed to be permanently parted from either her father or her betrothed. Elrond knows that if his daughter marries Aragorn her happiness will only be bittersweet, and Aragorn knows that his love for Arwen is likely to take her away from her father and her family for good. I can imagine that Elrond more than kicked himself when his daughter met Aragorn! And the possibility of such situations is probably one of the many reasons why Elves do not mix with Men.

One interesting thing about the relationship is that Elrond does not want the pair to marry until Aragorn has regained his Kingship; for Elrond this would mean not only that the kingdom of Gondor be a safer place for his daughter to live, but the whole of Middle-earth would be safer too, as he must have known that with Sauron still in existence, it would have been nigh on impossible for Aragorn to reunify the kingdoms to any degree. Aragorn and Arwen seem to take Elrond's decision stoically. Arwen does not simply run off with Aragorn. This suggests that either she is trusting to 'fate' to make the decision to remain in Middle-earth or not, or that she has incredible faith and trust in Aragorn that he will achieve what has been set out for him. For Aragorn the impact this must have on him is to put tremendous pressure on him to succeed, yet he must have always borne in mind that if he did succeed, he would also bring great grief for Arwen.

Farael

11-27-2005, 03:22 PM

Well Davem, it most definetly is a matter of opinion... and also of the definition of 'hope' each of us believes in. To me, one cannot go on without any kind of hope. It does not have to be a logical hope, but deep inside, you have to believe. Yet it's a matter of perception, others will call this "Endurance beyond hope" and others will say it's sheer insanity.

Lalwendë brings up a great point regarding the "inevitability of death" and I can't really add anything to what (are you a he or a she?) said, yet I just wanted to mention I agree with you.

Mithalwen

11-27-2005, 03:23 PM

DO you think she perhaps felt that her fate would mirror Luthien's in that regard also? One of the reasons I don't find Arwen interesting is that she is not so much a character as a cipher....

An interesting character for this topic to my mind is Gimli. Remember how hard he found leaving Lorien? Maybe this is a good excuse to quote just about my favourite passage in the whole shebang

'The travellers now turned their faces to the journey; the sun was before them, and their eyes were dazzled, for all were filled with tears. Gimli wept openly.

"I have looked the last upon that which was fairest," he said to Legolas his companion. "Henceforward I will call nothing fair, unless it be her gift." He put his hand to his breast.

"Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did I know where the chief peril lay! Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not foresee what we might meet upon our road. Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord. Alas for Gimli son of Gloin!"

"Nay!" said Legolas. "Alas for us all! And for all that walk the world in these after-days. For such is the way of it: to find and lose, as it seems to those whose boat is on the running stream. But I count you blessed, Gimli son of Gloin: for your loss you suffer of your own free will, and you might have chosen otherwise. But you have not forsaken your companions, and the least reward that you shall have is that the memory of Lothlorien shall remain ever clear and unstained in your heart, and shall neither fade nor grow stale."

"Maybe," said Gimli; "and I thank you for your words. True words doubtless; yet all such comfort is cold. Memory is not what the heart desires. That is only a mirror, be it clear as Kheled-zaram. Or so says the heart of Gimli the Dwarf. Elves may see things otherwise. Indeed I have heard that for them memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream. Not so for Dwarves." '

I find this intensely moving, the stern dwarf - a being of stone almost literally, who has seen the ancient glory of Moria is more deeply affected by the alien elvish world of Lorien. The only other thing he finds so moving are the glittering caves - perhaps the ideal mix (for him) of light and stone.

Lalwendë

11-27-2005, 03:38 PM

DO you think she perhaps felt that her fate would mirror Luthien's in that regard also? One of the reasons I don't find Arwen interesting is that she is not so much a character as a cipher....

Arwen must have been as aware as anyone of Luthien's story and fate, so it may well have served as a lesson for her in not simply haring off to be with Aragorn; in many ways Luthien may have served as an example to all who followed her. But I do not think Arwen consciously chose to follow Luthien in falling for a Man, again because she would have been aware of the suffering in the relationship of Beren and Luthien. I think she clearly simply fell for Aragorn and could not help herself, but maybe chose to restrain herself from being impulsive.

This lack of impulsiveness is a character trait for Arwen, and I often think that the reason she may seem to pale in comparison to an active, passionate woman such as Eowyn is that Arwen was simply a much quieter person. I think Esty once posted about the possible significance in Arwen's weaving of the banner for Aragorn, and it is in acts like this that Arwen shines. She may be quiet and only seen in the story as Aragorn's 'love interest' but she also seems to be powerful in that she can imspire Aragorn to such great deeds. We can't forget too that at the end of the book she gives Frodo a significant gift, however we want to interpret that act.

Lalwendë brings up a great point regarding the "inevitability of death" and I can't really add anything to what (are you a he or a she?) said, yet I just wanted to mention I agree with you.

Well, davem hopes I am a woman anyway. ;)

Lush

11-27-2005, 10:30 PM

I always found Denethor's situation particularly chilling.

The book hints at the notion that he was originally faced with the death of his wife and was not able to overcome it, leading to his despair to snowball into the disaster that eventually found him looking into the palantir, slowly deteriorating, losing Boromir after sending him on the road to ostensibly rescue Gondor, and ending up about to burn his remaining family member to death.

I think there is some sort of connection there; the idea, perhaps, that if one is not able to deal with losing a loved one, one may eventually lose everything and everyone they've ever loved as the resullt. It is a very cruel irony that Denethor who, after Findulias' death, "became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, forseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time" would end up trying to torch Faramir, who was all that remained of his family.

Farael

11-27-2005, 10:49 PM

You are fairly right, Lush... but Denethor does not inspire much simpathy as his actions stand for everything I oppose. Although you are right, he is faced with a really painful sequence of losses, to the point of loosing himself on his grief.
I also think that by trying to burn Faramir, in a very odd way (after all, he had lost his mind) he wanted to avoid his loss rather than loose him for good. By killing him, he owns his destiny and in such way, he owns Faramir himself.

Lalwendë

11-28-2005, 02:59 AM

The book hints at the notion that he was originally faced with the death of his wife and was not able to overcome it, leading to his despair to snowball into the disaster that eventually found him looking into the palantir, slowly deteriorating, losing Boromir after sending him on the road to ostensibly rescue Gondor, and ending up about to burn his remaining family member to death.

I can see this in Denethor too. Interestingly it only becomes clear that he was once a great man and had already been hit hard by grief when we get to the Appendices and read about his background there; in the story we meet him when he is grieving for Boromir and this is when he is at his lowest point.

I like the way that Tolkien leaves it open to us to decide how much his mind has been affected either by grief or by using the Palantir. I find that as I have got older, I have grown to understand Denethor much better and rather than seeing him as simply a 'bad guy' for his madness, I understand how he came to that point, burdened by grief that he could not reconcile, and along the way hurting not just his younger son but his people.

Boromir88

11-28-2005, 02:14 PM

I like the way that Tolkien leaves it open to us to decide how much his mind has been affected either by grief or by using the Palantir. I find that as I have got older, I have grown to understand Denethor much better and rather than seeing him as simply a 'bad guy' for his madness, I understand how he came to that point, burdened by grief that he could not reconcile, and along the way hurting not just his younger son but his people.~Lalwende
I understand what you're saying, however I think it's got a lot to do with what Lush is saying and having to overcome that. Theoden is in the same situation as Denethor is, yet Theoden is able to overcome his grief.

Theoden lost his wife. Lost his only son. His kingdom is on the verge of destruction. Then after he's victorious he learns he has to hastily ride to Gondor's call.

Though I may sympathize for Denethor (because I certainly don't think he's the bad guy he's made out to be and is one of the most misunderstood characters in Tolkien), it comes down to he was corrupted, he wasn't through and through a "nice" guy. Tolkien didn't have a nice picture in mind for Denethor, noting that he became corrupted by politics and in many cases compared him to Saruman. That may be because of all this thrust upon him. However, Theoden is faced with the exact same dilemmas and was able to triumph.

So, while Denethor is faced with a lot of grief, he was unable to overcome it like Theoden was able to.

Lalwendë

11-28-2005, 02:38 PM

Tolkien didn't have a nice picture in mind for Denethor, noting that he became corrupted by politics and in many cases compared him to Saruman. That may be because of all this thrust upon him. However, Theoden is faced with the exact same dilemmas and was able to triumph.

Tolkien does however leave us with enough information to figure out that Denethor is not an evil Man, just one who chooses the wrong way of dealing with his problems; in the appendices he make a point of telling us about the early death of his wife and from that we can draw our own conclusions.

Comparing Denethor to Theoden is a good comparison to make. The different reactions of each to grief and to a threatened realm demonstrate how people can react in very different ways in similar situations and it does make a point that perhaps the stronger person tackles their grief rather than retreating into it. It might be useful to compare two Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo.

I'm not sure that Tolkien is telling us that it is absolutely wrong to react in a certain way to a situation, more that he shows us what causes people to react in certain ways, and then the consequences of their reactions. We can then make our own minds up, and the characters become more tragic for not simply being there to represent a moral lesson.

Farael

11-28-2005, 03:26 PM

Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo.

But then, you have to take into account the purpose for which they carried the Ring. Bilbo carried it for a long time for no special purpose besides avoiding uncomfortable situations by disapearing and Sam used the ring only to save Frodo, his Master. In both cases the ring is helping them succeed and that's what the ring itself wants. On the other hand, Frodo is set to destroy the ring and of course, the Ring will do whatever it can to oppose it. You should not forget that the Ring has a sort of conscience of its own and in more than one instance we see it making choices, as (for example) slipping of the finger of Isidur when he tries to swim away from the Orcs, or becoming heavier and heavier as Frodo approaches Mt. Doom. I believe that it's because of the Ring that Frodo finds it hard to cope with the experience of being a Ringbearer. After all, the ring helps Bilbo and Sam yet it only opposes Frodo.

Boromir88

11-28-2005, 05:29 PM

Comparing Denethor to Theoden is a good comparison to make. The different reactions of each to grief and to a threatened realm demonstrate how people can react in very different ways in similar situations and it does make a point that perhaps the stronger person tackles their grief rather than retreating into it.
I've always liked to compare the two, because they are faced with similar situations. What's interesting is we hear of Denethor's greater days and being a much better man in the past, and we see his drastic spiral downwards in ROTK. In Theoden's case we vaguely see and hear his low point (being in the hands of Saruman and listening to Grima) and then his rise to triumph. So, the way they are portrayed in the books, and how they once were are polar opposites. :)

The only thing I can see as to why Theoden was able to get out of his hole, and Denethor wasn't was because Theoden put his hope and trust into Gandalf. Where Denethor did not, of course, as we know, he has disliked Gandalf since the earlier days.

You should not forget that the Ring has a sort of conscience of its own and in more than one instance we see it making choices, as (for example) slipping of the finger of Isidur when he tries to swim away from the Orcs, or becoming heavier and heavier as Frodo approaches Mt. Doom.
Also, when it slips of Gollum's hand, and Frodo decides to put it on a chain because Bilbo told him it had a tendancy to slip off. It seems that when the Ring is done with it's current bearer, it tries to get away. Once the bearer can be no more help or aid to the ring, it tries to get away, by slipping off, or in Frodo's case, since he wore it on a chain by becoming heavier.

I hope I'm not getting too far off topic, so I think I'll, ask about Eowyn? For she's always been an interesting character, and I've never really been able to fully grasp her. What was her biggest thing to overcome? Would it be getting over the early lust of Aragorn? And she gets over that lust when she falls in love and marries Faramir?

Kuruharan

11-28-2005, 06:00 PM

What was her biggest thing to overcome? Would it be getting over the early lust of Aragorn?

I'm not sure "lust" is the right word. Didn't Tolkien say somewhere that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn did not really change that much but that she grew to understand them better?

(I might be remembering wrong, but I could swear that Tolkien said something like that.)

Farael

11-28-2005, 06:03 PM

Also, when it slips of Gollum's hand, and Frodo decides to put it on a chain because Bilbo told him it had a tendancy to slip off. It seems that when the Ring is done with it's current bearer, it tries to get away. Once the bearer can be no more help or aid to the ring, it tries to get away, by slipping off, or in Frodo's case, since he wore it on a chain by becoming heavier.

Exactly

hope I'm not getting too far off topic, so I think I'll, ask about Eowyn? For she's always been an interesting character, and I've never really been able to fully grasp her. What was her biggest thing to overcome? Would it be getting over the early lust of Aragorn? And she gets over that lust when she falls in love and marries Faramir?

Awww I was liking the direction the thread was taking. Now, regarding Eowyn, I think she was also suffering by the death of Theoden's son (which would be Eowyn's cousin, right?), the bad times Rohan was going to and the decay of Theoden himself. When Gandalf helps Theoden recover, Eowyn is already hurt and furthermore the shadows cast by Sauron are not gone and so her heart is afflicted. She wants to help the cause by fighting in the war yet, as a woman, she's not allowed to do so and it adds to her grief. She goes to battle anyway and she kills the Lord of the Nazghul yet when she recovers from the wounds she suffered she finds Theoden dead and a very possible defeat in the hands of Mordor.

If all that wasn't enough, she falls for Argorn, but I think that was because he was THE warrior of his time. She was in love with Argorn the fighter, the one who fought side by side with Theoden and was the last hope for Gondor and the whole of middle earth, not by Argorn the man (who also happened to be in love with Arwen)

After Sauron falls the darkness lifts from her heart and she opens her eyes to Faramir (who also was a great captain of his army) and the rest is history

At least, that's my take on Eowyn, one of my favourite characters.

Edit: Posted at the same time than Kuruharan. I can't really recall Tolkien saying that, but maybe it was not on LoTR

Boromir88

11-28-2005, 06:06 PM

I'm not sure "lust" is the right word. Didn't Tolkien say somewhere that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn did not really change that much but that she grew to understand them better?
I'm not sure what Tolkien said on the matter, but I think you're right and saying lust isn't a right word. I think Eowyn was just misled by her own feelings in believing that Aragorn could be something for her that he couldn't. I think "unrequited love" would be a better term...ahh Shakespeare. :D

littlemanpoet

11-28-2005, 10:06 PM

Thanks, all, for taking this discussion in such interesting directions.

To lose hope is to lose everything, if you don't have hope what do you have? And I think a lot of the characters struggle with hope. So despair is the worst thing.

I think that the most difficult thing to overcome, for the characters in Middle Earth, was their own personal preferences, or the love of self.Selfishness.

To me, the greater reward received would be the knowledge that you are actively fulfilling the plan for your life.I like this.

So, it is true LMP, that hope need never be lost if you consistently make the choices that keep it alive.But who can actually be so consistent? Everybody fails. In fact, every single member of the Fellowship made mistakes, maybe even Gandalf (if one can say that it was a mistake to go into Moria).

Do we ever face that kind of thing? ... at least by analogy?Yes. Now now, Kuru, don't be coy. ;) Please illustrate.

I'm not clear that by the end (particularly after his Cirith Ungol experience) Frodo had hope. I think it was more of an act of will on his part to continue the journey and resist the Ring without hope.My readings of LotR lead me to agree with Kuru on this point. In Mordor, Frodo himself says that he has no hope. I think we can take him at his word. He is moving forward on will alone. When he loses strength, it is Sam's strength of hope and will, that literally carries Frodo onward.

Whichever decision Arwen makes, she is doomed to be permanently parted from either her father or her betrothed.The worst thing for Arwen, then, having to permanently choose between to loved ones.

As Mithalwen notes, Gimli finds his meeting with, and parting from, Galadriel, to be his greatest peril, his worst thing to face. But was it?

As Lush said, the worst thing for Denethor was his despair after losing first his wife, then his eldest son.

By killing Faramir, [Denethor] owns his destiny and in such way, he owns Faramir himself. Do you really think so? I find this to be an interesting thought. Would Denethor really own Faramir? Or would he only believe that he did?

It might be useful to compare two Ringbearers - Sam and Frodo; the former (although not long a Ringbearer) manages to integrate the experience while the latter simply cannot cope. Bilbo was also a Ringbearer and like Sam he too is much more able to cope than Frodo. Huh? What do you mean? How can he not cope? It seems to me that he copes most successfully, and finally succumbs only because of the sheer immensity of the burden.

Farael

11-28-2005, 10:30 PM

By killing Faramir, [Denethor] owns his destiny and in such way, he owns Faramir himself.
Do you really think so? I find this to be an interesting thought. Would Denethor really own Faramir? Or would he only believe that he did?

I do not think he could actually own Faramir's destiny as we see in the story that Faramir is saved and Denethor dies, so Denethor was only responsible for his own destiny. Yet if he had succeeded and burned Faramir along with himself then maybe we could argue that, as Denethor chose to kill Faramir before knowing the outcome of his desease, he truncated his destiny.

Now, I trully believe that we are the masters of our own destiny and if someone else takes control of our destiny then he is taking control of our lives and ourselves. So I guess it might be me putting those thoughts into Denethor who is only acting out of despair

Also we should take into account that Denethor was overwhelmed not only by despair but by the influence of Sauron. Maybe those thoughts were implanted in his mind by the Dark Lord and responted to no concisous or unconscious reasoning by Denethor.

Still, I do not think Denethor had completlely lost his mind either to Sauron or despair. He is fairly lucid, someone who has lost hope would probably not oppose Gandalf when he storms in to stop him. I believe that Denethor was so afraid of loosing the last important person in his life that he decided to kill him and himself so that he would not have to suffer a new separation. That way, him and his son would share a common destiny chosen by Denethor.

Kal-el

11-28-2005, 10:45 PM

i still think Turins whole story is the saddest

mormegil

11-29-2005, 12:19 AM

I must start a new idea here, one that came to me today in my reading. It is that Samwise had to overcome his loyalty and love to Frodo. At Cirith Ungol when he knew the task needed to succeed but to do so he would leave Frodo, even though he thought him dead, it was the worst part of his life to make that decision.

He had such an abounding sense of loyalty to Frodo, and Frodo alone in this matter, that he was more than willing to give his own life if it meant saving Frodo's. He felt no fear or hesitation to attack Shelob, go in Anduin (which for him was a big deal) or do any other things on the task if it was requisite to help Frodo including beginning to go over the cliff at the Ephel Dúath, which Tolkien remarks as Samwise's most courageous moment. My point in this is that Samwise was fiercely loyal to Frodo and then to have to abandon him next to the orcs and Shelob was nearly too great a burden for him. So for him to overcome that trial was a demonstration of his quality. This was truly the one of the pinnacles for his character. Being able to put his own feelings aside and do what is needed to save Middle-earth

Another problem that Sam faced, though lesser in degree and intensity, was his self-doubt and lack of confidence in himself.

Farael

11-29-2005, 07:15 AM

Excelent thoughts about Sam. I agree with everything BUT him lacking self-confidence. I think that in his own way, he believed on himself, or else he would not have gone to save Frodo or taken the ring himself to try to finish the quest.

Lalwendë

11-29-2005, 08:11 AM

I've always liked to compare the two, because they are faced with similar situations. What's interesting is we hear of Denethor's greater days and being a much better man in the past, and we see his drastic spiral downwards in ROTK. In Theoden's case we vaguely see and hear his low point (being in the hands of Saruman and listening to Grima) and then his rise to triumph. So, the way they are portrayed in the books, and how they once were are polar opposites.

The only thing I can see as to why Theoden was able to get out of his hole, and Denethor wasn't was because Theoden put his hope and trust into Gandalf. Where Denethor did not, of course, as we know, he has disliked Gandalf since the earlier days.

Do you think that Tolkien may have contrasted both Men to illustrate just how far those of Numenorean blood had fallen? Bearing in mind what Faramir says about Men:

For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of the West, which were Numenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness.
'Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things.

Clearly the Gondorians are very proud of their Numenorean heritage and have had a tendency to set themselves socially apart from other men such as the Rohirrim. Yet when you see how Denethor behaves in comparison to how Theoden behaves, then you get a clear picture that the descendants of Numenor are perhaps overly proud. ;)

It's telling that Denethor's own son recognises that the two races of men are not so different; it's also very telling that Faramir does not choose a bride from Gondor but one from Rohan. So there is yet another thing that one of the characters has to face - Faramir facing up to the fact that despite what his learning has told him, in reality Men are not all that different from one another, that it is deeds which count, not just bloodlines.

Huh? What do you mean? How can he not cope? It seems to me that he copes most successfully, and finally succumbs only because of the sheer immensity of the burden.

I mean that after the job is done he cannot cope; Sam and Bilbo cope once they are free of the Ring, but Frodo is terribly wounded. Of course, he does go through a lot more, but then we also have to consider that Bilbo used it a lot more and carried it for longer. Or, do you think that even after the Ring was gone, Frodo coped well?

I believe that it's because of the Ring that Frodo finds it hard to cope with the experience of being a Ringbearer. After all, the ring helps Bilbo and Sam yet it only opposes Frodo.

Or is it that the Ring works on the personality/characteristics of each bearer? Bilbo gains the Ring innocently and uses it relatively innocently to hide from the Sackville-Bagginsesand other intrusive Hobbits. Both Bilbo and Sam seem quite robust Hobbits psychologically. Is Frodo different? It's something that might be worth looking at. Isildur is proud of his heritage and the Ring seems to work on this side of his personality, something which is echoed in Boromir many years later. And then Gollum, who kills to get the Ring, uses it to sneak on his kin and eventually to retreat even further into solitude. So, what is it about Frodo that the Ring works on? His sense of duty? Was this strong before he was left the Ring?

In terms of facing up to things, it seems to me that one of the Ring's effects was to work on their characters, possibly to grab hold of those aspects that they did not want to face up to, or even onto their worst fears.

Farael

11-29-2005, 10:08 AM

Do you think that Tolkien may have contrasted both Men to illustrate just how far those of Numenorean blood had fallen? Bearing in mind what Faramir says about Men:

Clearly the Gondorians are very proud of their Numenorean heritage and have had a tendency to set themselves socially apart from other men such as the Rohirrim. Yet when you see how Denethor behaves in comparison to how Theoden behaves, then you get a clear picture that the descendants of Numenor are perhaps overly proud. ;)

It's telling that Denethor's own son recognises that the two races of men are not so different; it's also very telling that Faramir does not choose a bride from Gondor but one from Rohan. So there is yet another thing that one of the characters has to face - Faramir facing up to the fact that despite what his learning has told him, in reality Men are not all that different from one another, that it is deeds which count, not just bloodlines.

You do have a GREAT point in there, all along Theoden is more noble than Denethor. But you should also consider that Aragorn is also Numenorean and he is just as noble as Theoden if not even more so. Still, I guess I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate as I do agree with what you said.

On the other hand, I'm not exactly sure if by Faramir marrying Eowyn Tolkien meant to show that the two peoples were not as different. I think he states it with his own words that the people of Gondor had declined and Rohan had learned from Gondor yet both Faramir and Eowyn were 'special' for their own people. Faramir was a gifted leader, a man of wisedom and strenght while Eowyn was also wise and strong in her way. Plus she was definetly different from other women in that she wanted to ride to the battle instead of being content with staying home and waiting.

Or is it that the Ring works on the personality/characteristics of each bearer? Bilbo gains the Ring innocently and uses it relatively innocently to hide from the Sackville-Bagginsesand other intrusive Hobbits. Both Bilbo and Sam seem quite robust Hobbits psychologically. Is Frodo different? It's something that might be worth looking at. Isildur is proud of his heritage and the Ring seems to work on this side of his personality, something which is echoed in Boromir many years later. And then Gollum, who kills to get the Ring, uses it to sneak on his kin and eventually to retreat even further into solitude. So, what is it about Frodo that the Ring works on? His sense of duty? Was this strong before he was left the Ring?

In terms of facing up to things, it seems to me that one of the Ring's effects was to work on their characters, possibly to grab hold of those aspects that they did not want to face up to, or even onto their worst fears.
Possibly. But I think it's the objectives they had for the ring and the way they parted with it that affected them.

Gollum had the ring for hunting and fishing. He wanted the ring for himself and when he lost it he became obsessed with it. He obviously did not cope well.

Bilbo found the ring innocently and used it just as innocently (as you said) and he parts with it trusting the words of Gandalf who was a figure he respected. Still it was not easy for Bilbo to leave the ring and we still see him craving it somewhat.

Neither Bilbo or Gollum really knew what the ring really was, so I would think that the way they parted with it had an influence with the way they coped with its loss. Although we have to agree that Gollum was a murderer even before he got the ring (as he killed his friend, I cant remember his name right now) and the ring accentuated this, while Bilbo was a simple, nice hobbit and the ring did not have much of a negative effect over him.

Sam used the ring for the sole purpose of saving Frodo. That was all he cared about, and gave up the ring afterwards so the ring both had little time to act on him and also, maybe his simplemindedness protected him(after all, he never wanted anything for himself, he just wanted to help Frodo whom he admired)

And then we have Frodo
He is a smart guy (hobbit rather) and he is aware of the whole situation regarding the ring, both its dark past and the power it contains. Also, he was wounded by the Nazghul and it's said that he never completely recovers from that wound. We should take that into account because if he had not been healed, he would have became a spectre like the Nazghul (but of lesser strenght) and it's said that he had slightly undergone that transformation. Now, I might be mistaken but the Ring is the lord of the Nazghul, they answer to Sauron because he was the one whose power laid on The Ring yet I think that if someone else (someone like Gandalf or Galadriel) had put on the ring, the Nazghul would have responded to him (or her).
What's my point with this? if Frodo had became albeit not completely, a spectre of the Ring, it's possible to say that the ring itself would have a bigger influence over Frodo. If Frodo had used the ring for his own benefit, The Ring may have helped him, as Frodo would have been the new "Dark Lord" and the ring belongs to the dark lord (ok, I know Frodo was not strong enough to take Sauron's place, but if it had been possible...) Yet as Frodo tries to destroy the Ring, the Ring tries to oppose Frodo. And besides becoming heavier there's nothing it can do in the physical world yet he can affect Frodo in the psychological 'world'.

I hope that was somewhat clear, the Ring DOES act with regard of each individual's personality yet it also has a bit of a will of its own.

The 1,000 Reader

11-29-2005, 01:57 PM

I believe that you have hit the nails on the head.

On the topic of Sam seeing the star and regaining hope, does anyone think that Sam may have seen the silmaril on Earendil's ship?

littlemanpoet

11-29-2005, 03:49 PM

I mean that after the job is done he cannot cope; Sam and Bilbo cope once they are free of the Ring, but Frodo is terribly wounded. Of course, he does go through a lot more, but then we also have to consider that Bilbo used it a lot more and carried it for longer. Or, do you think that even after the Ring was gone, Frodo coped well?Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
Or is it that the Ring works on the personality/characteristics of each bearer? Bilbo gains the Ring innocently and uses it relatively innocently to hide from the Sackville-Bagginsesand other intrusive Hobbits. Both Bilbo and Sam seem quite robust Hobbits psychologically. Is Frodo different? It's something that might be worth looking at. Isildur is proud of his heritage and the Ring seems to work on this side of his personality, something which is echoed in Boromir many years later. And then Gollum, who kills to get the Ring, uses it to sneak on his kin and eventually to retreat even further into solitude. So, what is it about Frodo that the Ring works on? His sense of duty? Was this strong before he was left the Ring?I think it comes down to a rather simple difference. Frodo and Sam set their wills against the Ring whilst they possessed it. Bilbo never did, and Gollum never did, and Isildur never did. So I'm going to rate these five Ring bearers in terms of most to least culpible.

1. Gollum. He murdered to get the Ring, and it owned him.
2. Isildur. He had a chance to destroy it at Mount Doom, was exhorted to throw it away by Elrond (or was that just the movie?), but fell to the temptation of possessing it, making of it a family heirloom.
3. Bilbo. He happened upon it innocently, but used it readily. He didn't know it was evil, and succumbed to the effects of using it at all.
4. Sam. He did what was necessary to save the Ring from falling into the hands of the Dark Lord, setting his own will aside, ready to do what he believed to be right, even though he didn't want to; he held the Ring for a short while.
5. Frodo. He held the Ring for a long time, and set his will against it as long as he could, and sought its destruction for as long as he could.

So Frodo's will being set against that which was more powerful than he, for so long, resulted in the spiritual wounds he bore into the West. Sam did not hold the Ring long enough; it's reasonable to believe that in his own way, he would have done as well as Frodo, but did not have to.

On the topic of Sam seeing the star and regaining hope, does anyone think that Sam may have seen the silmaril on Earendil's ship?Why not?

I find it interesting that the Worst things that have been laid out here:
despair
a terrible choice between loved ones
selfishness
loss of the fairest thing ever beheld
Turin's curse drawn out to the bitter end
setting aside one's strength to do what was right

I find it curious that no one has posited suffering as the worst thing any characters had to face; especially considering some of the strong opinions stated elsewhere on these threads about that subject.

drigel

11-29-2005, 03:52 PM

Good stuff here, all told pretty complete, the ideas all thought out well.. but..

Just to throw in a few that I would consider "worse", as in the most extreme, that any character had to face in ME, I am also disregarding good and evil / which is worse etc.... and to preface - my premise would be that an immortal's suffering by face value would have more efficacy than a mortal's suffering when considering the time vector... for this premise only - I actually think you guys hit on my big ones already. But, as usual, I start to think when I enter the barrows... :smokin: I am probably way off track but anyways -

Míriel (or any elf who lets their fea leave their body), after giving birth to Feanor. I would throw Melian in there as well I suppose. What is worse than giving up yourself? And in Melian's case - to spent eternity in mourning...

Morgoth - from Wikki: Melkor/Morgoth's fëa was shut outside the gates of the world forever. Shut off from Arda where most of his essence remained he was unable to ever return.

Sauron after the destruction of Numenor. How far was that fall?

Boromir88

11-29-2005, 08:50 PM

Do you think that Tolkien may have contrasted both Men to illustrate just how far those of Numenorean blood had fallen? Bearing in mind what Faramir says about Men:
Yes, and good points you have made. I think something else to show this would be the confrontation between Aragorn and Hama at the door into the Golden Hall. When Aragorn tries to assert his title of being "Elendil's heir" and therefor able to overrule Theoden, and Hama says doesn't matter who you are it's Theoden's rules.

Doesn't Tolkien talk about Rohan's Kings being "less royal" then Gondor's and even the Stewards? But, I agree in LOTR that we see them more equal, and that the Rohirrim are just as "royal" as Gondor. Maybe not by family name, but certainly now being able to be independent from Gondor and able to "overrule" them. As Hama makes it very clear (and Gandalf agrees) that even if Aragorn was the King of Gondor it wouldn't matter.

I also agree and think that Pride is the biggest thing that Gondorians have to overcome. Especially in the case of Denethor and Boromir. Pride can be a good thing, but overly pride is just arrogant and boastful.

Denethor, as we find out in the Appendices doesn't like anyone who's not under his command (probably one reason for why he doesn't like Gandalf, because he can't control him, he can't order him to do things).

In Boromir, he's probably the most prideful guy in the entire story. Constantly boasting about Minas Tirith, and how great the men are. When he starts falling to the Ring, how great he would be to defeat Sauron. Also, we know that he's very wary about Aragorn taking the throne, and Aragorn's claim to the throne. When Boromir is on his death bed, he "sees the light" so to say, as he gives up his pride and acknowledges Aragorn..."Go to Minas Tirith and save my people."

Then what's the difference in Faramir? Because, from what I see from Faramir, he is totally opposite from his brother and his father. He's not the boasting "Minas Tirith is so great" type guys, he puts it flat out and says..."Not if Minas Tirith was burning to the ground would I touch it." Now, I don't think this means Faramir could care less about Minas Tirith, more of just an educated man knowing that the Ring can only do harm, and wouldn't help Minas Tirith if it was burning to the ground. But what's different in Faramir? Perhaps, is the same thing with Theoden? Gandalf being sort of a mentor to Faramir, and Faramir listening and accepting Gandalf.

Farael

11-29-2005, 09:06 PM

When Boromir is on his death bed, he "sees the light" so to say, as he gives up his pride and acknowledges Aragorn..."Go to Minas Tirith and save my people."

It might be just the way to say "the people of my kingdom" yet we should note that Boromir says MY peope.... possesive MY, when he could have just said "Go to Minas Tirith and save them"

Yet I totally agree with Gandalf being what makes the difference between Denethor, Boromir and Faramir

drigel

11-30-2005, 07:58 AM

I got another one:

How about the original elves that were ensnared, captured and enslaved by Morgoth, who used them in making the first orcs? What a brutal life that would be...

Lalwendë

11-30-2005, 10:21 AM

I think it comes down to a rather simple difference. Frodo and Sam set their wills against the Ring whilst they possessed it. Bilbo never did, and Gollum never did, and Isildur never did. So I'm going to rate these five Ring bearers in terms of most to least culpible.

1. Gollum. He murdered to get the Ring, and it owned him.
2. Isildur. He had a chance to destroy it at Mount Doom, was exhorted to throw it away by Elrond (or was that just the movie?), but fell to the temptation of possessing it, making of it a family heirloom.
3. Bilbo. He happened upon it innocently, but used it readily. He didn't know it was evil, and succumbed to the effects of using it at all.
4. Sam. He did what was necessary to save the Ring from falling into the hands of the Dark Lord, setting his own will aside, ready to do what he believed to be right, even though he didn't want to; he held the Ring for a short while.
5. Frodo. He held the Ring for a long time, and set his will against it as long as he could, and sought its destruction for as long as he could.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, but looking at it the same way, but rating characters according to the level of their suffering, you get a different result:

1. Frodo. Broken by the Ring, and possibly also by his inability to destroy it. He achieves the (almost) impossible by getting it to the very brink but receives no other reward than to have to leave the place he loves, the Shire.

2. Gollum. Driven mad by the Ring, his whole existence after losing it is centred on regaining it. So much so that when he does regain it, he leaps for joy and falls to his death.

3. Isildur. Although not much is known of the detail, we do know that bearing the Ring caused him to become less of a King, and eventually to get himself killed (due to his over-confidence?) - this could possibly be the root of the downfall of Gondor too.

4. Bilbo. Not terribly affected by the Ring at all apart from his unnaturally long life. He retires to Rivendell but seems excited by this, as though it is very much a conscious choice. He is reluctant to give up the Ring, but does so relatively easily.

5. Sam. He seems to be barely affected at all. He is able to return to The Shire and not only fully participate in life, but to increase his social position and to father a huge family. His departure (as far as we know) for the Undying Lands is more of a reward than a necessity.

If Frodo and Sam set their wills against the Ring, wouldn't they have experienced the same level of suffering in the end? Even if Sam had been the Ringbearer for as long as Frodo, I still do not think he would have suffered to the same degree; as seen in the differing reactions when each Ringbearer wears the Ring, I still believe that it has different effects on each wearer.

Farael

11-30-2005, 11:46 AM

If Frodo and Sam set their wills against the Ring, wouldn't they have experienced the same level of suffering in the end? Even if Sam had been the Ringbearer for as long as Frodo, I still do not think he would have suffered to the same degree; as seen in the differing reactions when each Ringbearer wears the Ring, I still believe that it has different effects on each wearer.

I'm not going to argue that it has the same effect on every wearer because I think it does not. Yet I must say that if Sam had actually worn (or carried) the ring with the purpose of destroying it for a time as long as Frodo, he would have been broken by it too. You have to take into account that Sam, when in contact with the ring, only concentrates on saving Frodo (furthermore, when he thinks Frodo is dead and takes the ring to try to finish his task, he looses hope and finds it all but impossible to go on yet when he changes his mind and decides to save Frodo he regains faith and finally achieves it. Maybe the Ring was opposing him first?)

Still, I do agree it depends on the ringbearer but not only on his character but also his purpose for the Ring. As well, whatever they choose to do with the ring depends on their character so both factors are interelated, but I think they are two distinct factors and I think that purpose is just as influential as character.