Who or What is Tom Bombadil?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

OK.

We’ve got ourselves into a flap (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11534) over Balrog wings…

We’ve tried to pierce (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11526) the fog that lies around the shape of Elves’ ears…

We’ve fallen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12322) out over what happened at Mount Doom…

We’ve come to blows (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12438) over the question of who felled Sauron…

We’ve even asked the ungodly (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12387) question of Eru’s nature…

But the time has come to ask the most difficult question of all. To confront the issue that has caused more heartache than any other on the Downs. Take courage my friends, for you are not alone...there will be others with you in the journey ahead as you ask yourself

Who or What is Tom Bombadil?

Read, and then decide…

A mystery within a mystery, involving Tom Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10846)

Tom Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=138)

bombadil being a dwarf (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=457)

Bombadil as Aule? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1631)

Beleg and Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2322)

Bombadil and Gandalf (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=876)

Farmer Maggot and Tom Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=626)

Bombadil and The Istari (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=945)

Who/What was Tom Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=634)

I say, dear Bombadil... (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1457)

Bombadil = yearning? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1410)

Did Tom Bombadil remain in Middle-Earth after the Third Age? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1363)

AGood Essay on Tom Bombadil. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1016)

Tom Bombadil - Maiar ? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1006)

What is Tom Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2300)

Tom Bombadil vs. The Ring (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1693)

Bombadil in LOTR (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1251)

Tom Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1321)

Re Tom Bombadil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=621)

Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=504)

[mormegil]

My reasoning is based on this most excellent essay found here. (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/)

Find Tom Bombadil and read.

[the phantom]

Raise your hand if you saw this poll coming.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Raise your hand if you saw this poll coming.
Should all posts be polls? (http://p087.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthebooks.showMessage?topicID=419.to pic)

[davem]

As usual, Fordim misses the real answer out (I'm beginning to suspect this is a deliberate policy).

The answer to the question 'Who or what is Tom Bombadil' is given in the book:

'He is.'

[Bêthberry]

He is . . . Bêthberry's dad. :D :p ;)

[Roa_Aoife]

I'll explain my answer when I don't have papers to write.

[The 1,000 Reader]

He is an enigma. Nuff' said.:)

[HerenIstarion]

An ëala (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=5879).

Before/After Dark Lord - here (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=94&page=2&p=1375)

[Morsul the Dark]

ASgain Tom Bombadil is Old Man Willow's Ent Spirit one day Old Man Bombadil(for he was an ent was walking around and saw Goldberry now unlike other ents who sometimes slow down and become treeish he fell in love and became super hasty and happy so hasty that in fact the spirit was ripped from the ent body which became bitter and angry and tom went and "put on his 'A' game" for goldberry

that is also why he can control tghe forest he is a treeherder

[Gurthang]

The answer to the question 'Who or what is Tom Bombadil' is given in the book:

'He is'

That sounds a lot like 'I am', you know, from the Old Testament.

Which means that Tom is obviously the Judeo/Christian God. :p

[Roa_Aoife]

Which means that Tom is obviously the Judeo/Christian God.

Please, not this again... :rolleyes:

[mormegil]

I would be most interested in hearing Boromir's explination as to his vote.

[The 1,000 Reader]

That sounds a lot like 'I am', you know, from the Old Testament.

Which means that Tom is obviously the Judeo/Christian God. :p


"He" was the beginning of the sentence.

[Gurthang]

"He" was the beginning of the sentence.

I'm not seeing how that makes a difference. Care to explain?

[ManofDale]

There are things in this world Tolkien said that cannot be explained and are just simply there, Tom is the epitome of this concept.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I'm not seeing how that makes a difference. Care to explain?


The H was capitalized because of grammar, not because Tom is God.

[Legolas]

Why is the answer not listed?

Tom is an enigma. His nature cannot be explained, nor does it need to be - that was part of his purpose.

[ManofDale]

Why is the answer not listed?

Tom is an enigma. His nature cannot be explained, nor does it need to be - that was part of his purpose.

Exactly, why debate an enigma. There doesn't have to be an answer in everything for us...I think it also has to do with a touch of innocence. Like believing in Tom was believing in Santa Clause, just because he was there and stood for something without any other symbols attached to him. I.E He is so and so reincarnated. In trying so hard to understand what Tom is we lose the intention of belief in the unknown.

[Garulf]

This poll sparked my interest in Bombadil again, prompting me to reread an old, but memorable post by burrahobbit. Kuruharan made a point (can't remember what was being argued) using this quote:

"And I shall send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World and the World shall Be..."

Now burrahobbit argued that "Tom is." (i.e. Tom is an embodiment of Ea, or more likely a spirit tied up with Ea ["Eä, meaning in Elvish 'It is' "]) a point which I am highly inclined to agree with. However, the above quote concerning the Flame Imperishable leads me to wonder whether Tom is the Flame. In this way Tom would be the eldest and come before all things, as well as being at the "...heart of the World...", a position that somehow feels right when describing Tom.

[Maerbenn]

Tolkien’s comment about Tom Bombadil being an enigma (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, no. 144) could also be interpreted to mean that he was an enigma to other inhabitants of Middle-earth, but perhaps not to the Author himself.

[Essex]

As usual, Fordim misses the real answer out (I'm beginning to suspect this is a deliberate policy).

The answer to the question 'Who or what is Tom Bombadil' is given in the book:

'He is.'I love all the debates these two simple words have given. But the answer, surely, is answered if you put the inflection on the word 'He' and imagine goldberry nodding her head towards the sound of Tom's singing. :smokin:

Anyway, he's the spirit of middle-earth - i.e. Mother Nature, and therefore he helped save the day at the Pellenor Fieldds by making the 'Wind Change'..........

[Legolas]

I think it also has to do with a touch of innocence.

Certainly!

Tom was certainly an enigma to all others (save Gandalf, probably). He represented a feeling Tolkien had, but even Tolkien did not want to analyze it 'precisely.'

Here are some quotes I often use in Bombadil discussion, and they are great for understanding Tolkien's purpose for Bombadil.

Letter No. 144

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

Tom Bombadil is not an important person – to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment'. I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control, but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.

Letter No. 153

As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. (Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as a commentator). You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday's Epistle – inappositely since that says ex quo. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time. But Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of names.

You may be able to conceive of your unique relation to the Creator without a name – can you: for in such a relation pronouns become proper nouns? But as soon as you are in a world of other finites with a similar, if each unique and different, relation to Prime Being, who are you? Frodo has asked not 'what is Tom Bombadil' but 'Who is he'. We and he no doubt often laxly confuse the questions. Goldberry gives what I think is the correct answer. We need not go into the sublimities of 'I am that am' – which is quite different from he is. She adds as a concession a statement of pan of the 'what'. He is master in a peculiar way: he has no fear, and no desire of possession or domination at all. He merely knows and understands about such things as concern him in his natural little realm. He hardly even judges, and as far as can be seen makes no effort to reform or remove even the Willow.

I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine) and wanted an 'adventure' on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out. I do not mean him to be an allegory – or I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name – but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture. [...] Also T.B. exhibits another point in his attitude to the Ring, and its failure to affect him. You must concentrate on some pan, probably relatively small, of the World (Universe), whether to tell a tale, however long, or to learn anything however fundamental – and therefore much will from that 'point of view' be left out, distorted on the circumference, or seem a discordant oddity. The power of the Ring over all concerned, even the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion – but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that pan of the Universe.

[Garulf]

I suppose that Tom is meant to be a mystery then. Somehow that also feels right. I'm beginning to see the uselessness of explaining each and every part of the book. Perhaps it's better to have at least a few unexplained mysteries.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Far be it from me to introduce a hint of the prosaic, but surely Tom Bombadil was a doll of which Tolkien's children were rather fond. :smokin:

[HerenIstarion]

Ineed he (it?) was, but why can not a doll simultaneosly be a [insert whatever suits your palate better here]?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

A doll better suits my palate. Besides, the question is 'Who or what is Tom Bombadil?' not 'Who or what is Tom Bombadil in the context of Tolkien's fiction?'. I mean to say, how imprecise can you get? ;)

[Bêthberry]

Squatter toys with us, HI. ;)

Seriously though, our Man of Old English Letters reminds us of an important fact about this character. He was conceived in a different story culture. Like many an 'immigrant', Tom is not well integrated into the community or cosmology of this story. Having Gandalf refer to Tom at the end of the story represents a heroic attempt to integrate him, but one which remains I think somewhat mechanical. It is all well and good to call Tom an enigma, but by and large I think this kind of defense remains more a justification than a true explanation.

On the other hand, does the problem or enigma lie only with Tom? I find it very interesting how often people have difficulty understanding or accepting Tom, yet very few seem to ask who or what Goldberry is.

Do readers have an easier time accepting a female mythic earth character than a male one? Or is it that Frodo's infatuation with Goldberry provides an adequate and understandable explanation of her function? (Why is it that she can control rain, but not snow, for instance?)

[Morsul the Dark]

Interesting that is true Goldberry is only slightly more explained i think it has also to do with the role of women in the story(please dont hurt me) overall they are subordinate therefore almost out of wight out of mind the thing that facinates me about bombadil is the mere fact that he is unaffected by the ring. now had goldberry put on the ring and not disappeared surely we would have a dynamic duo of enigmas on our hands

[Gurthang]

I'd also turn to the fact that Tom is an enigma, but for some reason, that does not satisfy my curiosity in the slightest. Therefore, I cannot leave that to be my answer.

Goldberry. Well, I guess the reason we don't think of her much is that Tom seems more pertinent to the hobbits. Tom saves them, takes them in, tells them tales, wears the Ring in their view, gives them horses, and finally saves them again. Key among those is Tom putting on the Ring and being unaffected. I think these occurences make Tom overshadow Goldberry in a way. But it is true that her nature is about as equally unknown as Tom's.


The H was capitalized because of grammar, not because Tom is God.
My point was not really that the 'H' was capital. I was commenting more on how strikingly similar the 'he is' sounded to 'I am'. In each case, it merely states existance, rather than being followed by a descriptor. There are very few other examples (actually none that I can think of) that make use of such a statement. Simply saying that Tom exists really reminded me of God's name, I am, that simply says that He exists. But, regardless of the fact that I think this is a debatable subject, I was saying so largely as a joke. Sort of poking at Fordim for his 'Is Eru God?' thread. Hence the :p.

On a completely different tangent, has anyone ever wondered if Tom was perhaps the embodiment of Tolkien himself into Middle-Earth?

[Morsul the Dark]

it is possible however its a rather boring answer isnt it? I mean hes god or hes and ent spirit or any other theory can be kind of fun. to me and im just saying my opinion not to bash yours i respect it just disagree...its like telling a kid to do something just because....also secondly real quick anyone know what tolkiens favorite colors were i mean if i wrote myself into a story i wouldnt dress myself in a silly yellow hat...would you? :p

[The Saucepan Man]

But it is true that her nature is about as equally unknown as Tom's.Save that she is specifically identified as the River Woman's Daughter. Ambiguous in itself, perhaps, but at least it suggests to us more about her nature (hinting perhaps that she is a water spirit of some kind) than we are ever told about Tom's nature.

... has anyone ever wondered if Tom was perhaps the embodiment of Tolkien himself into Middle-Earth?Yes, I have seen the theory articulated somewhere, although I can't now recall where. I also recall seeing an article setting out the theory of Tom as the embodiment of the reader. I believe that it is linked to on one of the threads for which Fordim has privided the links.

[Bêthberry]

now had goldberry put on the ring and not disappeared surely we would have a dynamic duo of enigmas on our hands

Interesting that of all the female characters only Galadriel has her moment with the Ring. I wonder if, had Goldberry been allowed to stay after dinner with the fellows, she might have provided a surprising demonstration of her powers.



Tom saves them, takes them in, tells them tales, wears the Ring in their view, gives them horses, and finally saves them again. Key among those is Tom putting on the Ring and being unaffected. I think these occurences make Tom overshadow Goldberry in a way.

True, yet adventure and action is not all that the story is about. Goldberry's affect on Frodo is important in terms of his learning elven ways while the nature of respite and sanctuary is an important element in the story and something she specifically provides. Without her, banner-weaving Arwen is harder to understand.

[Legolas]

Even if Goldberry's nature was as unexplained as Tom, I don't think she would have attracted the amount of speculation Tom has. The point with Tom is not that he is male, but that his physical acts (and subsequent conclusions drawn about his mentality) show that he is quite an oddity - he skips about through the woods carelessly, and is completely unmoved by the Ring? He's not just an unexplained character. He's an unexplained character that leaps out and thumps the reader in the eyeball.

[daeron]

Can someone explain Merry and Pippin's dreams in Tom's house?
I mean, Frodo saw Gandalf trapped and escaping from Orthanc, so is Merry and Pippin's also significant? Note also that Sam was the only one who spent a dreamless night. Are the dreams in Tom's house similar to the Mirror of Galadriel?

[Captain Grishnahk]

I have had this discussion many times with fellow Ringers (LOTR fans) and i have come to the conclusion that he might be Iluvator. Just somthing for you to chew on.... after all; he said that he was there before the first acorn, the first raindrop and before the elves. Of course lots of people disagreed... but i dont see any other option. :p BTW, i'm new... so forgive me for any stupid thing i've said in the past. :(

[Kal-el]

This poll sparked my interest in Bombadil again, prompting me to reread an old, but memorable post by burrahobbit. Kuruharan made a point (can't remember what was being argued) using this quote:

"And I shall send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World and the World shall Be..."

Now burrahobbit argued that "Tom is." (i.e. Tom is an embodiment of Ea, or more likely a spirit tied up with Ea ["Eä, meaning in Elvish 'It is' "]) a point which I am highly inclined to agree with. However, the above quote concerning the Flame Imperishable leads me to wonder whether Tom is the Flame. In this way Tom would be the eldest and come before all things, as well as being at the "...heart of the World...", a position that somehow feels right when describing Tom.
i think this is one of the best interpretations

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

There is this interesting topic.

The Trickster's Consort (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11773&highlight=Goldberry) by Bêthberry

Not that Tom is the Trickster, of course . . . ;)

[Eluchíl]

Eh...Wikipedia discussion flashback.

Anyway...Tolkien said himself that Tom was meant to be undefineable. So in that sense he's whatever you want him to be. He is nothing official in the legendarium's world, but yet plays a part in it. He's just...there.

[Gil-Galad]

well i feel that Tom Bombadil is forever a mystery, just a little piece of hope that helps the hopeless regain what they need to do, almost like a final candle

[Folwren]

Which means that Tom is obviously the Judeo/Christian God. :p

Means nothing of the sort.

I don't know. This question's always boggled me. Will maybe read the threads Fordim posted and then vote. . .

-- Folwren

[narfforc]

The name Tom Bombadil was the name of a childs doll, and I believe to be insignificant. I believe the aspect of Bombadil was something within Tolkien himself. The love of all things growing, and the joy of the world itself. If ever a character within a book speaks for the author then Bombadil is Tolkien. The name Iarwain Ben-adar could also relate to Tolkien, for he was also The Oldest without Father, in the earthly way. Bombadil could only say in an earthly way that he had no father, for everything that is, comes from Eru, so spiritually he had a father, unless he was Eru.


I think therefore I am
He lives therefore he is.

[Mythopoeia]

Greetings.
What I personally see in Iarwain Ben-adar is the supremacy of Art over the rest of the (tainted) world, during the time of the War of the Ring.
Tom Bombadil's enigmatic yet merry nature is reflected upon the true Artist who is never corrupted by the materialistic progress of the malignant Science (as shown in The Fellowship of the Ring when Tom slips the One Ring on his finger).
His mystery was never solved because of what Tolkien - God bless his soul - believed: that the source of majestic Art is not found in this world.

[Elu Ancalime]

I beleive that Tom Bombadil, like Tolkien mentioned himself is the enigma. He is more of a representation than a literary character, and his meeting with Frodo is more of symbolism than an addition to the plot.
When Tom appears as untempted by the Ring, can see Frodo while he wears the Ring, and so they have no problem giving the Ring to each other, it is like this: Although you may think you know something well, (like for example that the Ring is evil), there is always something that is undiscovered in the world. Treebeard and Tom both say they are both the oldest being, there dosnt have to be contridiction.

"'When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already...'"
Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...

And so, if my idea stands correct, when Ambar/Arda was created, Tom there already. If he is indeed the 'undisovered,' then as soon as there was wonder and thought and dreams, Tom would be there. But He was before all this.

He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

When Eru made the Ainur, they were the first non-omnipotent beings. And not being omni-potent, they would wonder and guess and dream, or at least had that lack of knowledge. So Tom was first. And theoretically, when/if all things in Ea are known, and all mysteries uncovered, Tom would be gone, because there would be no more discovery in the world. So technically, Tom would be around at the time of the Music, but not being 'powerfully supernatural', to say not like Gandalf, he was not an Ainu. Theoretically also, one can not learn all there is in nature, since nature is free of human intervention, and is ever-changing. "Nature will always find a way," Ian Malcom said in Jurassic Park. And Tom being nature-oriented, he would then never die; so saying:

Last as he was first, and then there will be night

As said in the C of E, he then only be able to die when all secrets of nature were known, which cannot be, so if that happened, the world would have to end in some way, or whatever 'night' may be.'



I came up with this theor on my own, I haven't read any Tom Bombadil essays It just 'came to me' while reading through E of A's entry of Iarwin Ben-adar.

__________________________________________________ _____________
__________________________________________________ _____________
Also, in a more specific example, you can view The Ring and Bombadil as a symbol: If Sauron had complete domination (with his Ring of course) over Middle-Earth, and stood unopposed, he could still not make the trees or the earth or the rocks evil. They would not be affected by his rule. And so while the Ring may be the greatest concentration of power, it could not hold power over Bombadil, who seems to be the personification of nature itself. And althogh at the C of E, it was said pertaining to Bombadil as the Ring-Keeper(noy an exact quote)

Even Sauron has found ways to torture the very hills

Sauron can taint hills, water, and air, but he could not make them kill elves, if you know what I mean. As it was said:(not exact quote)

Morgoth could not bend the seas to his will, and so he hated them

(Also assumed that he could nto control the earth/soil, etc) Then if the greastest Ainu could not control the inert factors of nature, surley Sauron could not.
So while Mordor is a bleack, ashen land, I would bet that if Frodo and Sam had traveled nearer to the Barad-dur, Sauron would not make dirt fly up in their eyes. Now he would (could) though, but it would be more like using his powers to release energy in a way (kinda like the Halos) that would act as wind, blowing the dirt. He would not beable to control the dirt telepathically or anything though. I think the 'Powers' (not limited to the title of the Valar) would only beable to have influence over animate/organic beings. (hroa and fea i suppose). And since Tom Bombadil is 'Master,' but not Master of the Lands, he could not use nature as a weapon. So Tom would have indeed been a bad choice to give the Ring to.
________
FORD SCORPIO (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Scorpio)

[Glaurung]

Tom has always been a mystery to me, and I suppose Tolkien meant him to be one. I've also been wondering who really is the oldest of all beings of Middle-Earth. Celeborn refers to Treebeard as the eldest, and Tom says he was around before trees even existed ( sorry I don't have the book in English so I can't quote the sentence...). So? If Tom was there before trees existed, I think Treebeard couldn't have lived by then. But did Celeborn make a mistake or had he just forgotten about Bombadil, or did he know about Tom at all?

[Raynor]

Treebeard is only called the eldest among Ents:
For Treebeard is Fangorn, and the eldest and chief of the Ents, and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things
In letter #153, Tom is called "the Eldest in Time"; also, in a draft letter which appeared in The Lord of the Rings Companion, by Hammond and Scull, it is stated that:
Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest speaking people after the Elves until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List... since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking Even in Treabeard's song, in the Treabeard chapter, TTT, he doesn't claim he is the eldest being:
Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses

[Elu Ancalime]

If Tom was there before trees existed, I think Treebeard couldn't have lived by then. But did Celeborn make a mistake or had he just forgotten about Bombadil, or did he know about Tom at all?

Even though Treebeard was not eldest of all the races, i think while Tolkien might meant (or leastways showed) that while Ingwe might have been the first elf (whether he was or no dosnt really matter in this case; there was a first elf, and Ingwe is the most likely), he and Tom would be able to share the title of 'Eldest' and 'First' without problem.
The reason why i think that is because: There was obviously a 'first' elf. So that title automatically goes to them. Then Tom calls himself Eldest, and says he was before all elves. So Tom gets a share too. Now to be before elves, he would have to be an Ainu (which i dont beleive) but using Ainu in this context meaning created of the thought of Illuvatar or out of the Music. Pointbeing, he was before Melko returned and before the Marring.
So there really is nothing to take away Tom's claim to the title, unless he is lying, which even putting his character aside, we can prove that is false. Gandalf is an Ainu, so he would know whether Tom was before elves or acorn or anything he said because he was around before Arda, and would have said that was false if Tom was really lying.
So, going back to my origanal theory and post, its ok to have two 'Eldest,' because one is Eldest(of all the speakers minus Ainu) and Tom was still Eldest(metephorically)
Also, if treebeard was the Eldest (technically, wouldnt he be? the Ents were before the Elves wernt they, but they couldnt speak yet?), Celeborn would have recognized my theory, because as one of the Wise, he would have known well of Bombadil, so he would have known he was not incorrect in calling Treebeard Eldest.
________
Chrysler Nassau History (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Nassau)

[Raynor]

the Ents were before the Elves wernt theyI wouldn't say so:
When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be fearedThe ents don't come sooner than the elves, but pretty much at about the same time (if not later).

[Elu Ancalime]

and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar
For some reason I always had the implication in my mind that the Ents went to Middle Earth the all the animals and plants soon after the Aule-Eru incident, when Yavanna said the forest would need protection from enviromental degradation from the dwarves, and they just kinda hung out until they elves came along.
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OG KUSH PICTURES (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/og-kush)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In the early drafts of LotR, Tom calls himself 'Aborigine', not 'Eldest'. As Christopher Tolkien observes in his footnotes, the likely times for Tom to come into being are before the flight of Melkor and Ungoliant or, more likely, during the time in which Melkor was banished in the Void. Since Tom remembers the dark beneath the stars when it was fearless, Varda's star-kindling must have taken place before his memory begins, and therefore he was not alive when the Dark Lord originally entered Arda, first of all the Valar. That basically blows all of the 'Tom is an aspect of Eru', 'Tom is the spirit of Middle-earth' and 'Tom is a forgotten Maia' theories I've seen out of the water and leaves us with a character who is an anomaly. He's not exactly an Elf, certainly not a Dwarf, and while he could be a Man (the most likely explanation in my opinion), his great longevity is difficult to explain. In his letters, Tolkien points out that Middle-earth is an imperfectly conceived universe, and all but tells his correspondant that Bombadil can't be made to fit at all.

Personally Bombadil strikes me as Adamic, which might explain his long life. We might, I suppose, take him to be an image of unfallen Man, blessed with length of years and a disdain for worldly concerns, but even that would take some explaining, since he was in the lands about the Shire before the Elves first passed through. Tolkien was probably right: philosophizing does not improve him. My instinct is to accept the character as a mystery and mark up all inconsistencies with the main mythology to the vagueries of the branching acquisitive theme. After all, Tom was conceived long before he was made a part of Middle-earth, and it's perhaps inevitable that some of the joins should still show.

[Aiwendil]

Squatter wrote:
Since Tom remembers the dark beneath the stars when it was fearless, Varda's star-kindling must have taken place before his memory begins, and therefore he was not alive when the Dark Lord originally entered Arda, first of all the Valar.

Why? It seems to me that his memory could have begun before the star-kindling even if he remembers that later age. I remember yesterday even though my memory begins before yesterday. Another point to be noted is that there were stars, dimmer and more feeble, before Varda's great star-kindling.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It seems to me that his memory could have begun before the star-kindling even if he remembers that later age
This is true, but it would seem odd for Tolkien to write some dialogue that seems intended to demonstrate a character's great age but which makes no reference at all to his presumed earlier memories.

As for the kindling of the stars, my knowledge of the Silmarillion material never was that amazing; perhaps it's time that I read it again.

My main point remains the same: Tom Bombadil is none of the above: he's a character who had nothing to do with Middle-earth at the outset, and who therefore was never assigned a satisfactory place in that reality. To look for one seems to be to forget that Tolkien's Middle-earth is invented, and that he freely admitted its imperfection. My reaction to some of the more common Tolkien imponderables has always been that they tend to be totally disproportionate, concentrating on really quite unimportant details of the story. Tom Bombadil's origins are less boring than Legolas' hair or Balrog wings, but there's still no answer, and surely his role in the narrative is clear enough. Does it really matter that we can't fit him neatly into Tolkien's world? I also wanted to point out the opinion of Christopher Tolkien, who is quite definite about the two alternatives I outlined in my previous post. My own view is very nearly 'who cares?', but when I turned up that information in HoME VI I remembered this and other discussions.

[Raynor]

Since Tom remembers the dark beneath the stars when it was fearless, Varda's star-kindling must have taken place before his memory begins, and therefore he was not alive when the Dark Lord originally entered Arda, first of all the Valar. Another point to be noted is that there were stars, dimmer and more feeble, before Varda's great star-kindling.It is worth noting that the these first stars seem to be made also by Varda, as seen in the Silmarillion/Annals of Aman:
But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Iluvatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea(although in the great reshaping of Myths transformed, HoME X, Tolkien states that she couldn't have done that, since the 'general' stars do not concern "the Valar of Arda").

[A_Brandybuck]

This is true, but it would seem odd for Tolkien to write some dialogue that seems intended to demonstrate a character's great age but which makes no reference at all to his presumed earlier memories.

Under the circumstance, that the Professor himself said, that good old Tom is an enigma, and under the circumstance, that Tom is still an enigma for us, because decades of discussions have brought no result, I would say, that nothing is odd concerning Tolkien's formulation. ;-)

[Elu Ancalime]

Well, of course he had to develop Tom. Frodo and Co. couldnt have met Mr Enigma, for then he couldnt have development of all. So while Tolkien created him as an enigma, I believe that he developed his character to be an enigma, also. So he is Enigma-twofold, in his literary concept, and actual characterzation. There can be no rebuke against his literary standard.
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HONDA GL500 (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_GL500)

[davem]

The most interesting thing about Tom is that even those who dislike him don't 'disbelieve' in him. For such readers he's like a real person, but one who gets on their nerves, so they avoid him. One thing they can't deny is that, as in Goldberry's words: 'He is.'

Of course, we're all 'enigmas' - most of us even to ourselves. We can no more explain the 'madness' of TB than we can explain our own eccentricities. We are all 'silly' at times, & maybe we could divide the human race into those who can accept (even enjoy) their own silliness, those who deny it, & those attempt to explain it away, or provide some kind of 'psychological' explanation.

I suspect that the second group (the deniers of their own silliness) turn away from TB in contempt, the third group (the 'explainers) are the ones who construct elaborate 'theories' about TB (he's a Maiar, he's Eru, he's Tolkien himself, etc, etc). The first group, though, are the ones who can just accept him & follow his mad song through the Old Forest to his house, step over the threshold, find a golden light all about them and the table all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb, and white bread and butter....

As Chesterton put it 'The true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; Heaven is a playground.'

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

For anyone who hasn't seen this, Tom is actually The Witch-King of Angmar. (http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm)

[narfforc]

I always find it fascinating when the question of Bombadil comes up, that no-one asks who Goldberry is, or more precise her mother The River-woman. All three of these characters are enigmatic, when, where and who are words that are used if mentioning their names. The River-woman was supposed to live in a deep pool of The Withywindle. Now I know of no other being than one of the spirits (Ainur), which lives under water, could Goldberry be the daughter of Uinen?. If The River-woman was human, then there is a good chance Goldberry would also be. This would mean Goldberry being a wife for a fleeting moment. Could The River-woman be Elven, for Goldberry is described as a young elf-queen. I think all three are spirits, let me quote from The Silmarillion:

With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servents and helpers. Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Iluvatar; for though it is otherwise in Aman, in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men.

Seldom does not mean never, and Bombadil came first anyway, and alone. Other than the Five Istari which are named, there were others who came with them which may have also been Maiar, another thing the Elves knew not the number of. The Valaraukar/Balrogs (Gothmog) and Ungoliant are named as Maiar. I believe Bombadil was one of the Ainur, of what degree I know not, yet he is called the Master by Goldberry. Does Master in this sense mean in control, if so of what. Could Eru have sent Iarwain Ben-adar to guard the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable at the very creation of Ea?. Does not the words Ea, the World that Is not also reflect Goldberry's He Is answer to the hobbits, when asked who Tom Bombadil was. This could also answer the question of why Tom was there before Melkor, when the world as such was still sleeping. Gandalf feared that Tom would fall Last as he was the First, why was he the first. The riddle of who Bombadil is, can only be answered by why he is.

[Legolas]

always find it fascinating when the question of Bombadil comes up, that no-one asks who Goldberry is,

This came up on the previous page, actually! Here it is, in case you missed it.

Here's what was said, by Bethberry:

On the other hand, does the problem or enigma lie only with Tom? I find it very interesting how often people have difficulty understanding or accepting Tom, yet very few seem to ask who or what Goldberry is.

Do readers have an easier time accepting a female mythic earth character than a male one? Or is it that Frodo's infatuation with Goldberry provides an adequate and understandable explanation of her function? (Why is it that she can control rain, but not snow, for instance?)

My response was...

Even if Goldberry's nature was as unexplained as Tom, I don't think she would have attracted the amount of speculation Tom has. The point with Tom is not that he is male, but that his physical acts (and subsequent conclusions drawn about his mentality) show that he is quite an oddity - he skips about through the woods carelessly, and is completely unmoved by the Ring? He's not just an unexplained character. He's an unexplained character that leaps out and thumps the reader in the eyeball.

[narfforc]

Maybe instead of saying no-one I should had said almost no-one. The percentage of Tom watchers to those of Goldberry is now about 99%, unless I missed anymore, however thanks for pointing out one of the few. Of course I am talking over a long period of time since the books were first published, Tom does get more attention than Goldberry and her mother. There is a fascination with people trying to figure out who or what he is, and completely forgetting the other two.

[Bêthberry]

Of course I am talking over a long period of time since the books were first published, Tom does get more attention than Goldberry and her mother. There is a fascination with people trying to figure out who or what he is, and completely forgetting the other two.


Well, it appears such people are in good company, for, after all, Gandalf appears to forget about Goldberry when he says at the end:


But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.

Of course, this could simply be Tolkien's attempt to try to integrate Bombadil a little more into the story. After all, he and Goldberry did get their own book, so to speak.

hmm. Maybe I should go back to my fey avatar which resembles the images on the cover of Tales from the Perilous Realm. hmm.

[yavanna II]

I've long ago decided for myself that Tom Bombadil is the very spirit of Arda--Arda in a physical form that can walk, talk, and be like a Kid of Eru in the sense that he's almost looking like them.

"Eldest, that's what I am ... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn ... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

;)

[narfforc]

I've long ago decided for myself that Tom Bombadil is the very spirit of Arda--Arda in a physical form that can walk, talk, and be like a Kid of Eru in the sense that he's almost looking like them.

"Eldest, that's what I am ... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn ... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

;)

Yes I agree in a way, the more I think of the history of Bombadil, the more I am convinced that he is either the Guardian of the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable or he is the physical embodiment it. Why else would he come First, when there was nothing else in Arda apart from the Flame that Eru had placed there.

[davem]

I've long ago decided for myself that Tom Bombadil is the very spirit of Arda--Arda in a physical form that can walk, talk, and be like a Kid of Eru in the sense that he's almost looking like them.

"Eldest, that's what I am ... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn ... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

;)

Of course, this would imply that Arda is in some way conscious - specifically self-conscious. It is alive, has memory & the capacity for (rational???) thought.

I'm reminded of Legolas' words (The Ring goes South):

'That is true,' said Legolas. 'But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.

Maybe Legolas is speaking literally. Which brings to mind a recent post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=459630&postcount=7) of Aiwendil's on The Hobbit CbC thread.

[drigel]

and your quoting brings this one to mind, Davem:

Aragorn in FotR: 'There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.'

dont forget cruel Caradhras

"...longer than Sauron" is significant, almost Bombadillian. :)

perhaps there are just as many good and friendly things in the world as well :)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've long ago decided for myself that Tom Bombadil is the very spirit of Arda--Arda in a physical form that can walk, talk, and be like a Kid of Eru in the sense that he's almost looking like them.

"Eldest, that's what I am ... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn ... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

;)

How is your answer different from the second option of the poll?

Just asking... :)

[davem]

dont forget cruel Caradhras

"...longer than Sauron" is significant, almost Bombadillian. :)

perhaps there are just as many good and friendly things in the world as well :)

Or that passage from TH:

For just at that moment the light came over the hill, and there was a mighty twitter in the branches. William never spoke for he stood turned to stone as he stooped; and Bert and Tom were stuck like rocks as they looked at him. And there they stand to this day, all alone, unless the buds perch on them; for trolls, as you probably know, must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again. That is what had happened to Bert and Tom and William.


So it does seem that the 'stuff' of M-e can come alive if it is inhabited by spirit/fea. But if Bombadil is the 'spirit of Arda' then we are dealing with something very like the Gaia concept of James Lovelock. Yet what is Goldberry? Tom cannot be the spirit of the whole of Arda if Goldberry is also the spirit of part of it ('Daughter of the River'). Its possible that both Tom & Goldberry are the male & female aspects of the spirit of Arda. Tom may be the 'earth' element & Goldberry the 'water' element. Tom seems to have a strong relationship with, & control over, the earth & the things that grow/live in it - OMW, Badgers, the Barrow Wights, while Goldberry rules water, clouds, rain.

As has been noted before they do seem to be 'reflections' of Celeborn & Galadriel (who almost seem to be 'higher harmonics' of them).

[Thalion]

Tolkien has said in Letters that Bombadil represents "something that was otherwise left out..." of the Lord of the Rings. I am inclined to read that statement along with all descriptions and comments about Tom in the following light:

Tolkien was attempting to write a "mythology" in all of his works. Not just a mythology for England, but a mythology and a set of stories that would look older and more complete than any other that had previously existed. He was doing this in an attempt to give a background for many myths and legends that we have currently or have had throughout time that share many elements (such as the Volsung Saga sharing similar elements with Beowulf, Nibelungenlied, the Poetic Elder and Edda, Atlantis, ect, ect, ect...)...as can be seen from his ideas concerning the fact that he was the translator and that all of these tales had to have come from specific sources (Bilbo's Red Book of Westmarch, Aelfwine/Eriol traveling to Erressea, ect), Tolkien was very concerned with giving "legitimacy" to his stories in that they could be percieved as "ancient" tales or stories which eventually were interpreted over the years as those tales that we currently interprent as legends and mythologies spread across Europe...

...but combined with this, Tolkien also had a love of languages...specifically Gothic and Welsh (Sindarian) and Finnish (Quenya)...but he also believed in the concept of an Ur Language, or a language above all languages...philologists, for years, have been attempting to trace back languages and make edcuated gueses concerning the earliest languages and how we can see similarities in many languages spread throughout the entire globe (similar in fashion to how we see similarities in legends spread throughout the globe)...however, an Ur language is the idea of a language that not only predates all other languages but also is a language that is that of God himself...as such, the Ur language when spoken would represent commands or actions more so than descriptions...for examples...saying the real and original word for"chair" in the Ur language would not only necessarily communicate to all others the exact thought of what a chair is just by the expression of that word, but may also cause such an object to come into being...

WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS?

1) Look at Tom's sing-song type language...his words become commands...Old Man Willow lets the hobbits go, and so does the Barrow-Wight...Tom's expressions are like commands in a similar fashion to the idea that the Ur language would not only convey thought but would also cause things to come into being (or in Tom's case, do his bidding)...HOWEVER, Tolkien, also in his religious beliefs, would consider it blasphemy to imbody God in such a being as Tom Bombadil (or any other character for that matter)...yet, he would probably agree that the Ur language could only be spoken by God himself (save many for Angels, for which there is some conjecture still abounding)...therefore, how can Bomdabil speak an Ur language and not be God?

2) Now look to the first part of my post, the mythologies section...in all of these intertwining stories there are always things that stand out as pure mysteries to translators or interpretors...they just have no clue what they are or how they got into the story...Tom can be considered this...an Enigma? YES, but much more...Tom is an enigma because no tale of history or legendarium can be complete...its humanly impossible to be infallible...there will always be gaps and holes that can't be filled or explained even by the best of explanations...Tom is this hole, this gap, this thing unexplained...he represents "things otherwise left out"...meaning that Tolkien's world without Tom is nearly perfect...but with Tom, there is a big gaping mystery that no one can officially solve...Tom exists to give a realistic tone to the idea that one set of stories can fully resolve all mysteries that have existed in legends for the history of the world...one human story can't explain this...Tom shows us that...Tom shows us that human are fallible (including Tolkien) and therefore no tale written by humans is complete and perfect...

[davem]

But if Tom represents or symbolises something that would otherwise be left out, what does that make him - what is he?. Goldberry simply says 'He is', & then goes on to qualify that statement (or is she actually 'qualifying' it - maybe she's actually making another, different, statement about him) by saying 'He is as you see him.' It seems that she is saying He is what he appears to be - he doesn't wear a 'mask'.

Yet from Tom's statements about himself it seems he is far more than he appears to be. Unless all Tom's statements about himself are attempts to communicate what should be apparent in his very 'appearance' but aren't.

Its obvious that Tolkien knew exactly who & what Tom was but refused to say. One wonders why.

He is like a window onto a great Mystery - the mystery of Being. Contemplating Tom is a bit like contemplating infinity.

[Sardy]

One thing that strikes me as a bit odd about Tom is that his "power" seems limited to The Old Wood. It would seem that is he were indeed "the spirit of Middle-earth" or some such, that his presence and affect would be a bit more wide-ranging...

[Thalion]

'He is'

I have always read this as a "studder" on the part of Goldberry, not a definitive statement that "He is." Mind you, "He is" is followed first by a comma, not a period [Granted for grammatical sense it must be a comma, but Tolkien could just have easily wrote "He is." if he wanted to without any "said Goldberry" at the end...] Therefore I have never really affixed much to this statement in terms of reading it in similarity to God's claim in the Bible of "I am."

Additionally, if Tom MUST be catagorized, I deem him to be an enigma, purposefully one who doesn't fit with story. He doesn't represent an entity that can be defined by the terms of Middle Earth...also given the fact that he wears big Yellow boots (which in my mind look like giant rubber rain boots), Tom I believe is not meant to be understood..."He is" a mystery, on purpose with no equivocations...

EDIT: It seems that she is saying He is what he appears to be - he doesn't wear a 'mask'.

I would concur...it would be the equivalent to seeing a purple elephant in the LotR...it is exactly as you see it...it has no underlying meaning, it wears no mask, it is as you see it; it has and needs no explanation...