Khand-Moria-Carn dum coincidence

[Elu Ancalime]

I was messing around with the Atlas of Middle Earth and i noriced something peculiar. Take a strait edge. Khand, Khazad0dum and Carn Num are on this line, somewhat. Is this a coincidence? Probably. Why would the witch king's realm, the gratest dwarf kingdom, and a smaller ally of mordor be connected? There could be speculation.

Language. Kuzdul is not know fluently by anybody besides dwarves, but we no it is rough, almost harsh. Carn dum-khazad dum. Carn could origanally be karn. dum means halls. perhaps that meant a colony off of near by gundabad before angmar showed up? Khand, too has the'kh' motif of kuzdul. Like carn dum, it is in the area of the enemy. The mountains that strike out NE from the mountains of shadow in the area of khand give for the geographic possibility of a dwarf city. Besides the longbeards, brodbeams and firebeards, there are four other dwarf fathers left, and they appeared in pairs. Tolkien didnt mean any of this, but it sure shows possibility. I just thought this was interesting. What do you think?
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[Kuruharan]

Carn-dum was an old dwarf holding from back in the days when the Longbeards were spread all up and down the Misty Mountains.

It is unlikely there was any dwarven connection to Khand. It just happened to have the "Kh" sound at the beginning of it. See here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12133).

[Maerbenn]

Carn-dum was an old dwarf holding from back in the days when the Longbeards were spread all up and down the Misty Mountains.What is your source for this statement?

[davem]

What is your source for this statement?

Encylopedia of Arda offers:


Carn Dûm is very difficult to translate. Indeed, not only is there no attested meaning of the name, but we can't even be sure of the language it comes from! There are at least four possibilities.
The most obvious relies on the Elvish word car(a)n, meaning 'red'. From this, many have assumed that the entire name is Elvish, and presumably Sindarin. In support of this, the name Angmar, for the land where Carn Dûm stood, seems to be definitely Sindarin. On the other hand, there is no known connection between Carn Dûm and the colour red, and - a serious difficulty - dûm is almost certainly not an Elvish word.

Dûm isn't Elvish, but it is one of the very few words of Dwarvish vocabulary that we know for certain. In Khazad-dûm, it means 'halls, mansions', and this fits neatly for a mountain fortress or citadel. What's more, nearby Mount Gundabad has Dwarvish associations, so the possibility arises that Carn Dûm might have once been a city of the Dwarves, named in their language. There's no direct evidence to back this up, though, and carn doesn't seem to be a Dwarvish word.

The possibility that Carn Dûm comes from the Black Speech must also be considered, but we simply do not have sufficient information on this language to make a useful judgement.

A final possibility is that Carn Dûm comes from a Mannish language. Tolkien used real languages to represent the Mannish languages in his books, and especially Old English and Old Norse. Carn Dûm doesn't seem to belong to either of these, but there is another candidate: carn dúm are words from Gaelic that can be translated 'mountain fortress'. Did Tolkien intend this, or is it a spectacular coincidence? To accept it as intentional, we'd need to assume an entire new 'Angmarian' language, based on Gaelic, that was wiped out with Angmar by the Gondorians and survived only in this one name. This seems unlikely in the extreme, but where Tolkien is concerned, anything is possible...

[Kuruharan]

What is your source for this statement?

A) The word "-dûm"

B) The fact that the Longbeards had all the Misty Mountains north of Khazad-dûm in their gnarled grip for millennia. It is near Gundabad (which was a stronghold of the Longbeards for much of those same millennia).

C) I can't recall ever seeing anything about any Men being in the area. The Men in the general area lived by the river on the other side of the mountains.

You add all these up and you come up with a convincing case.

Tolkien’s essay “Of Dwarves and Men” is very illuminating in issues like this.

[Elu Ancalime]

I will say i used what i had read off of E of A on the Carn dum entry, and the entrys about the seven dwarf fathers. I tried to link together this info and make speculation on it. It also said the other two pairs of fathers were, it was either more than or about 1000 miles away from Khazad-dum. That does point towards khand, but since there is no history of khand other than its warriors fighting in two battles against gondor, this is all theory.
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[Elu Ancalime]

I read through the dwarves and mordor thread, and im sorry i missed it. I have a few questions, which may be on tangent of my own thread. "wheredid tlkien neame the houses of dwarves besides longbeards, broadbeams, and fire beards? (ironfists, stiffbeards) are those in the Peoples of ME or something? and from what the Atlas of middle earth shows, mordor was in the first age where part of the helcar were, which apparently dried up, leaving the sea of rhun only. i would guess mordor was raised from volanic and plate techtonics, due to mount dooms existance, and the black mountains. so dwarves might have flourished in that diagonal mountain range, which im sure has a different name than the epitel duath.....so since saurin didnt taint the land, and nurn wasnt as bad as gogoroth, i think geolgicallt and politically it would be possible for a dwarvish clan, even by the enemy. Erebor was near the grey mountains, and Rhun, and they onlky fought when attacked, they did not go out to conquer. same with the emyen angren. So there could be a clan, that either eluded sauron, khand, and rhun, or was eliminated by them, and only the name khand perhaps remained. Speculation.
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[Kuruharan]

so dwarves might have flourished in that diagonal mountain range, which im sure has a different name than the epitel duath.....so since saurin didnt taint the land, and nurn wasnt as bad as gogoroth, i think geolgicallt and politically it would be possible for a dwarvish clan, even by the enemy. Erebor was near the grey mountains, and Rhun, and they onlky fought when attacked, they did not go out to conquer. same with the emyen angren. So there could be a clan, that either eluded sauron, khand, and rhun, or was eliminated by them, and only the name khand perhaps remained. Speculation.

I suppose anything is possible. In this particular case I don't think it is likely. Dwarves wouldn't have any reason to go exploring in that part of the world. They were all too far away.

[Elu Ancalime]

Well what i'm saying is that they would be awaken near their, not travelled to it.
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[Kuruharan]

I don't think so. The relevant dwarf fathers (and mothers) all awakened much farther to the east.

[Gil-Galad]

Carn-Dum was the holding of The Witch-King during the wars of Arnor, Khand is beyond the mountains of Mordor, south-east, close to Harad, Khazad-Dum is almost in the middle of the Misty Mountains, i can't really see how these are in a straight line...

[Groin Redbeard]

Carn-dum was an old dwarf holding from back in the days when the Longbeards were spread all up and down the Misty Mountains.

It is unlikely there was any dwarven connection to Khand. It just happened to have the "Kh" sound at the beginning of it.

Well actually there might be a connection between Khand and dwarves. During the War of the Ring Easterlings are described as perhaps belonging to more than one culture, plus the Variags of Khand. One group is described as a "new" kind of Easterling that the men of Gondor had previously not encountered; fierce bearded men with axes.

My theory is that Easterlings could be a mix of dwarf & men blood. Just look at Khamûl's name, one of the nine Nazgul, and he's an Easterling. Easterlings have just taken the language of Khuzdul and added their own twist to it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well actually there might be a connection between Khand and dwarves. During the War of the Ring Easterlings are described as perhaps belonging to more than one culture, plus the Variags of Khand. One group is described as a "new" kind of Easterling that the men of Gondor had previously not encountered; fierce bearded men with axes.

My theory is that Easterlings could be a mix of dwarf & men blood. Just look at Khamûl's name, one of the nine Nazgul, and he's an Easterling. Easterlings have just taken the language of Khuzdul and added their own twist to it.

I would call this theory interesting, but (with all respect) "very fantastic". Again, as it was said before, the fact that someone's name begins with "kh" hardly means anything. Theoretically, even the influence of Dwarven language on the Easterling language would be quite impossible - think how secretive the Dwarves are with their language alone, now I can't imagine them sharing their language with the Easterlings (or only speaking in it in front of the Men to the point that they will adapt some words from it), nor, Eru forbid, them crossbreeding with Dwarves. Just think about it: that is silliness! Dwarves had quite enough problems with their own wives (most of them never married due to work), now I don't want to imagine such a thing with human women... no, that's just plain nonsense. And even "spiritually", Dwarves were the children of Aulë and Men were children of Ilúvatar... and what Ilúvatar said that "there will be little love between the children I adopted and the children who are mine" (or something like that) applies to Men as well... no, I think, hardly.

[Galin]

Encyclopedia of Arda writes (as quoted in the thread): 'Carn Dûm is very difficult to translate. Indeed, not only is there no attested meaning of the name, but we can't even be sure of the language it comes from! There are at least four possibilities.

The most obvious relies on the Elvish word car(a)n, meaning 'red'. From this, many have assumed that the entire name is Elvish, and presumably Sindarin. In support of this, the name Angmar, for the land where Carn Dûm stood, seems to be definitely Sindarin. On the other hand, there is no known connection between Carn Dûm and the colour red, and - a serious difficulty - dûm is almost certainly not an Elvish word. Dûm isn't Elvish, but it is one of the very few words of Dwarvish vocabulary that we know for certain. (...) The possibility that Carn Dûm comes from the Black Speech (...) A final possibility is that Carn Dûm comes from a Mannish language.




I would go with Grey-elven, and 'Red Valley.'

'The name of the vale was first Carndoom the Red Valley; above was written Carondûn and Doon-Caron, but these were struck out.' Note 13, The Ring Goes South, The Return of the Shadow.

That's from a draft -- 'Carndoom' was an earlier name for Dimrill Dale -- but still quite notable. Also, we have a tum 'deep valley' in Sindarin (Tumladen).

Not for certain perhaps, but my first choice.