Speaking of a Silly Poll

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Oh, this was just too good an idea to disappear...

Read (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=3526), and then decide...

[Roa_Aoife]

Finwe. His bravery in facing Melkor was so amazing. He also showed wisdom in answering the call of the Valar. And he's Number One! :D


And I hate Feanor. He's ... well, it's not a word the language filters would allow. (No offense to Feanor of the Downs.)

[Son of Númenor]

I chose Fëanor, because I've always had a soft spot for brilliant and tortured minds who eventually collapse into paranoia and self-destruction. And "Sil Kitchen" is still the greatest single of all time. Er, I mean...

[Kuruharan]

...and vote Finrod.

He may not have been The Noldorian High King, but he was a Noldorian king. :smokin:

[the guy who be short]

Who in their right mind would argue with SoN? None of the others come close to rivalling the sheer awe inspiring tragedy and majesty of Feanor.

[Folwren]

Oh, man, Fingolfin, definitely. Apart of Maedhros, he's probably my favorite elf in the entire history! His lone combat against Morgoth was awesome, and the fact he died in it makes it even more so. And he endured so much by the hand of Feanor and made it all the way across the ice. . .a chap can't really help but like him.

-- Folwren

[Anguirel]

Feanor was an Elf of genius, a great tragic hero, and possessed fine words. He had a correct anti-authoritarian instinct as well. But I can't quite forgive him for the impetuosity with which he destroyed the lives of his seven marvellous sons, many of whom were in their way as great as he. (I'd argue that Maedhros and Maglor were both greater, in fact. Whatever Tolkien says!)

Fingolfin is a stubborn, self-righteous usurper. He's excellent at cornering the moral highground, and striking noble postures; in the end, he was fortunate in finding such a good death. Any of the other great Noldorin princes, especially Maedhros, would have left just as impressive an account of themselves in that situation. What we tend to forget is that it was born of defeatism and despair.

Fingon...now there's a real High King. The breadth to see the need, repeatedly, for a united Noldorin front. Eventually he was to give his life for that unity. A death just as noble as his fathers, in a constructive battle not a duel that was more like a deathwish. A vanquisher of dragons. Faithful to his cousin Maedhros when all others turned away.

Turgon-another High King of at best debatable legitimacy. Wise policies and a relatively good judge of Elves, allowing Maeglin to show his quality despite his heritage. But rather manipulatory in his dealings with Hurin. Good king of Gondolin, but too isolationist to be an effective High King.

Gil-Galad-inherited the best of many of his ancestors. We tend to forget Gil-Galad's long reign in the Second Age before Dagorlad, but it was marked by wisdom, caution and discernment, as well as fine diplomacy. Another gallant death. Should have probably provided more effectively for a successor.

So in conclusion I vote Fingon-the greatest High King, though not quite the greatest hero of the Noldor.

Oh and Finwe? Never had to toil in the North and was pretty useless at the limited demands his task called for, completely screwing up his family for a nice Vanyar piece...

[drigel]

1: Fingolfin, whose deeds I had the most admiration for.
2: Turgon, whose deeds I most probably would have done, given the same circumstances.

[Eonwe]

Fingolfin, certainly:

Feanor is certainly a compelling character. Driven by passions and a fierce spirit, he most definitely goes down as the most glorious King of the Noldor. The rendering of the Silmarils, skill of his hands...and who can deny the sheer awesomeness of Feanor pursuing his foes to his death, his heart rejoicing and his voice lifted up in song...

However, Fingolfin is the mainstay of the Noldor. While Feanor is pidling around spewing wrathful venom, wreaking havock and whatnot.It is he that leads the greater part of the main body. He holds together the army when it would have been sundered. Where would they then have been? Feanor smashed by Melkors pinky, and the rest exiled and with no place to turn to. And Fingolfin also has passion and a fierce spirit, as shown in the crossing of teh Grinding Ice, and his despairing battle with Melkor, of which teh elves do not sing, and the Orc do not speak. Basically, he's the man.

[Lalaith]

Oh, how I *despise* Turgon.....

Which is why I like Fingon, the anti-Turgon (I agree btw Kuru, Finrod is even cooler but he wasn't High King...)

[Elu Ancalime]

I voted Fingolfin.

He wouldnt have been my first pick, but Finrod is another liked king of mine. But really, what a bout Finarfin? He was the High King in Aman after Finwe and the Flight of the Noldor really, all the others were High Kings in Beleriand (and Gil-Galad in Lindon). I mean after the Second Age, he was the man, right?(elf...)
________
Mercedes-benz slk-class (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLK-Class)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

...and vote Finrod.

He may not have been The Noldorian High King, but he was a Noldorian king. :smokin: ([i]Kuru)Hear, hear! My father was one of the greatest of the Noldorin princes, and he was the youngest one, at that.

I maintain that he is the only one of the Noldor to break the Doom of Mandos through his own deed (keeping his oath to Beren). Besides, his duel against Sauron is no lesser deed compared to Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth.

But he wasn't a high king. *sigh*

Vzv, Elu, my granddad Finarfin did not use the title 'High King of the Noldor.' Though I wonder why . . .

[Elu Ancalime]

Vzv, Elu, my granddad Finarfin did not use the title 'High King of the Noldor.' Though I wonder why . . .

I thought Tolkien (in very few places though) said off-handedly that Finarfin, since he went back, was 'recognized' as the High King, (whether he used the title or no is odd indeed)

Also, in many places, (is the Fall of Gil-Galad one?) it said Gil-Galad was the 'Last High King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth.' implying that Finarfin was the one in Aman, i assumed.
________
Toyota Ae86 (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_AE86)

[Alcarillo]

Feanor, definently. The rest of the kings' lackluster stories of typical kingly and heroic deeds pale in comparison to Feanor's madness-driven tragedy. Sure, he may have been a little . . . crazy, but that's what makes him cool. :cool:

[Thinlómien]

I second Kuru! If Finrod can't be voted, I won't vote. And Maedhros too. But could he be called a king? Wouldn't he rather actually be a lord?

[Lalwendë]

Oh, how I *despise* Turgon.....



He's one of my least favourite characters too. Of course he is not evil in the way that Morgoth was evil, but his behaviour is still highly questionable to me. I think that hiding away his city was a natural reaction to the threat his people faced, but in doing so he effectively condemned said people to a life (and an endless life, at that) in a prison. Gondolin, the Gated Community of Arda. Hmmm...

Then there was his reaction to the appearance of Eol. Rules of Gondolin aside, I think his sense of 'ownership' of Aredhel was questionable at best, and when trying to decide who was the bigger hot-head, Turgon or Eol, I find that they are not very different at all.

Turgon seems to have the attitude of the 'conqueror', and once settled in his new land, he becomes insular. I think that it was no mistake that attitude towards the first Men to enter Gondolin was very different to that expressed towards Eol; he may have come to realise that the hope to keep Gondolin secret was one held in vain.

I realise many will disagree with me, but this is one of my favourite topics of argument. :p

In terms of who was the 'best' King, I think it would have to be Gil-galad. But in terms of which was most interesting and complex, I may possibly opt for Feanor, even though I do not like him very much.

[Thinlómien]

I realise many will disagree with me, but this is one of my favourite topics of argument. :p
Sorry to disappoint you, but I agree with you. Turgon, though he's sometimes quite sympathic, is the king of a prison.
Following this logic, it was actually a good thing that Gondolin fell, since all those "prisoners" who could escape alive would be free... ;)

[drigel]

i dont mind being a dissapointment, and can argue the other side of Turgon if you guys want me to.

[alatar]

Fingolfin.

Whatever the accomplishments and failures of the others, I just can't help but admire an elf who gave the mightiest Ainur a permanent limp. Melkor never bragged about that fight, even though Fingolfin was slain.

And I suspect deus ex machina in Fingolfin's fall, and though an Eagle was sent so that his broken body could be recovered (a consolation prize), he was terminated before the big secret got out (psst! We can boot the Ainur out of Arda and take over...).

[Anguirel]

Reading alatar's post, it's just struck me that Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth is a sort of visual representation of Feanor's career-hopeless but glorious combat with forces beyond anyone's capabilities to defeat. Indeed, even Frodo's battle with the Ring is a similar valiant defeat. Interesting. Probably just a lesser spotted archetype though.

[Bêthberry]

Probably just a lesser spotted archetype though.

For a moment I thought Anguirel was engaging in a birder's endeavour to identify the sometimes sighted deux ex machina.

And I say it's a dead poll or an ex-poll at least--at the risk of Fordim making me take a silly walk. :D

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Another write-in vote for Finrod Felagund. Not
only a great sounding name but a killer of
werewolves without using weapons (a sporting
chap). (Imagine what he would have done to
The Hobbit's Chief Warg (Mwaaa!). :D

[Mithalwen]

Turgon at least had the wisdom to accept Tuor and from that came salvation.

I adore Finrod but my vote if he is excluded must be Fingolfin.

[drigel]

Turgon at least had the wisdom to accept Tuor and from that came salvation.

At the very least :)

[Lalaith]

Remember the Fen of Serech.....
grrrrr.

[Kuruharan]

I think that hiding away his city was a natural reaction to the threat his people faced, but in doing so he effectively condemned said people to a life (and an endless life, at that) in a prison. Gondolin, the Gated Community of Arda.

That is a matter of perspective dependant on the perspective of those supposedly imprisoned. What is freedom?

Following this logic, it was actually a good thing that Gondolin fell, since all those "prisoners" who could escape alive would be free

Apparently it is being a bunch of refugees barely clinging to a rather unpleasant coastline. And escaping alive was a real trick wasn't it? ;)

Remember the Fen of Serech

Huor and Hurin wanted that.

[drigel]

It's interesting to note, not that he wasnt picked as a favorite, but how many anti-Turgons there are out there. Cool to see different takes on the same reading. But yikes - dont hate the player, hate the game.

The puzzlement I have is how people like Fingon, but hate Turgon..?? To me, Turgon's (like the rest of the Exiles) story is a study of the Doom, but with a refreshingly different twist than his sires and counterparts. Its an alternate strategy, but a strategy that one could possibly say was "meant", or absolutely fated to be none other than the way it was. The aid and relationship of Ulmo, Osse, and eagles throughout the years tells me he took a path through the Doom that was the most congruent (for lack of better words) with the higher powers than any of the other Cursed.

That is a matter of perspective dependant on the perspective of those supposedly imprisoned.
kuzzactly. There are those who like to roam, then there are those who dont.

OK I'll stop, because I either sound like an apologist for T, or I need to start a Turgon appreciation society.

edit: my favorite quote about T.:
Now the thought of Morgoth dwelt ever upon Turgon; for Turgon had escaped him, of all his foes that one whom he most desired to take or to destroy. And that thought troubled him, and marred his victory, for Turgon of the mighty house of Fingolfin was now by right King of all the Noldor; and Morgoth feared and hated the house of Fingolfin, because they had the friendship of Ulmo his foe, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him with his sword. And most of all his kin Morgoth feared Turgon; for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that yet lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him.
a pain in his foot and a weight on his mind... #1 and #2 :)

[Formendacil]

Good heavens!! Finrod? Maedhros?

The poll is about High Kings of the Noldor, not just plain old kings. Why do you go advocating Thingol or Dior? After all, if one can disregard the High part of the poll why not disregard the Noldor part? Or, for that matter, why limit it to Kings at all? Why not just go with favourite Middle-Earthian character? Or favourite fictional character? Or favourite person real or feigned?

Seriously, the way people around here are unable to vote within the confines of any poll presented irks me... If Fordim had wanted his silly poll to be about Noldorin kings in general, he would have made it about that, but he didn't.

Excuse the irateness... I'm very irked.

P.S. As the poll will show, I've voted Gil-Galad.

[Raynor]

Turgon seems to have the attitude of the 'conqueror', and once settled in his new land, he becomes insular.Then again, the valar should be quite sympathetic of his decision, seeing how far they went in isolating their own island from the threat of Melkor. [In Myths Transformed, Tolkien does qualify this "rival possessiveness" as an effect of the shadow on the valar.]

[Lalaith]

The insularity, the isolationism I can overlook. It's the brazen, arrogant ingratitude that sticks in my craw.

[Lalwendë]

Now I did not say I hated Turgon, but I do find him to be a questionable leader. ;)

Before he becomes High King of the Noldor it is his perogative if he wishes to hide himself away, but afterwards it might be wrong to do such a thing; leaders need to be accessible to those whom they lead. Comparing this style of leadership with that of another, imagine if Aragorn decided to lock himself up in a tower and not actually get out there and lead the people? His active leadership was a major influence on his acceptance by the people. As seen with the reaction of Eol, I can well imagine that Turgon might have encountered difficulty in fostering allegiance from all the Elves.

And was it right for him to be isolationist when his kin were engaged in the struggle against Morgoth?

Aredhel demonstrates how even living in a perfect, beautiful and safe environment can be a confinement worse than being locked in a jail cell; she chooses adventure and danger over this paradise-prison. I often wonder if she actually allows Eol to woo her as he represents a 'free' Elf, someone who is quite definitely not under the control of her brother! An act of rebellion? Was she trying to state her new found independence?

And the strange thing is that she chooses Eol who then himself seeks to confine her. Sometimes those who have been in prison for a long time become 'institutionalised' and cannot fully cope with new found freedom. I think in seeking to confine his people in the way that he did, Turgon did them a disservice in the long run.

[Kuruharan]

It's the brazen, arrogant ingratitude that sticks in my craw.

I beg your pardon. Ingratitude for what?

And why do you have such a high opinion of Finrod and a low opinion of Turgon when the policies they set for their kingdoms were exactly the same? I detect a double-standard here.

Comparing this style of leadership with that of another, imagine if Aragorn decided to lock himself up in a tower and not actually get out there and lead the people? His active leadership was a major influence on his acceptance by the people.

The situations were hardly similar. Aragorn was trying to be made a king. Turgon was already a king. When he became High King (which I don't think really rose to the level of a "ceremonial" role) he "ruled" (much too strong a word) over a shattered people who had no further capacity for effective action. In a way, he was showing the example to the Noldor that their only hope lay in staying in the tall grass.

And was it right for him to be isolationist when his kin were engaged in the struggle against Morgoth?

For before he became High King: see above note regarding comparison to Finrod.

For after he became High King: What kin? What struggle? When he became High King, the sons of Feanor were broken nomads who could do nothing. Nargothrond was following exactly the same policy as Gondolin until the unstable Turin convinced the dimwit Orodreth to forsake it. Then Nargothrond was broken. Who or what was left? (And don't go mentioning Doriath, Thingol would have passed out at the prospect of calling Turgon "kin.")

In fact, Turgon attempted to engage in the only sensible action to save his people. Try to get to the Valar and abjectly beg forgiveness.

Aredhel demonstrates how even living in a perfect, beautiful and safe environment can be a confinement worse than being locked in a jail cell; she chooses adventure and danger over this paradise-prison.

It demonstrates that Aredhel was a spoiled brat. The Noldor were not in Middle-earth to have a jolly good time. There is a quote from an orc that might have done Aredhel a world of good, "Don't you know we're at war?" The Noldor were at war faced with an enemy far beyond their strength. The only thing they could do was make the best of their dire situation. Aredhel, in her empty-headed silliness, willfully disregarded this part of her brother's role and selfishly demanded her own way and the ultimate result was complete disaster. I'm often inclined to think that Maeglin's naughtiness was more a result of his mother's nature than his father's.

Was she trying to state her new found independence?

She had the opportunity to state her "independence" when she decided to join the rebellion. That was when she chose "freedom" from the Valar. However, freedom from the Valar meant subugation to her brother who was trying to protect her as well as the thousands of others who followed him. This she also must have chosen for herself, it is not like she did not have a father or other brother (both of whom were also kings) who did not lay down such strictures about freedom of movement (which as far as I can tell is all you mean by "freedom.") I don’t think Aredhel ever understood there were other people in the world than herself and other needs greater than her narrow wants.

Turgon did them a disservice in the long run.

He did them a gross disservice by taking part in leading them to Middle-earth at all. After this, he did the best he could (under the advice of no less than Ulmo). I'm afraid Aredhel is not compelling evidence that Turgon did not do well by his people.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Seriously, the way people around here are unable to vote within the confines of any poll presented irks me... If Fordim had wanted his silly poll to be about Noldorin kings in general, he would have made it about that, but he didn't. (Form)Live with it. :p

I still think Finrod is the greatest--at least in his generation group. It's just that silly succession law that prevented him from claiming the throne.

[Lalaith]

For what you ask? Kuru, you *have* forgotten the Fen of Serech, haven't you?

The men of Dor-lomin sacrifice themselves so that Turgon and his boys can sneak back to their sodding hidden city. Hurin is captured after performing feats of arms and courage unmatched by any elf or man on Middle Earth before or since. For this deed, and for facilitating Turgon's escape, he and his kin are tortured for years by Morgoth. On release, he asks the elf for whom he offered up this incredible sacrifice, for refuge. Turgon refuses.

If that isn't ingratitude then I would like you to tell me what is.

[Numenorean]

Upon first reading the above list of Kings I really had no idea which way to vote, but after reading the other posts and pondering some sections of the Silmarillion, I’m going for that eternal crowd pleaser …Turgon. I think I would struggle to defend the reputation of this much-maligned Elf better than Kuru already has. I would only add that given the ever darkening situation in Beleriand I never thought his actions were anything other than understandable.

In (attempted) defence of what Lalaith has claimed to be Turgons ingratitude with regards to the way he treated Húrin after his ‘release’ from Morgoth, Turgon was faced with an incredible dilemma:
His friend and ally Húrin had been imprisoned and placed directly under Morgoths dark power for 28 years, when he suddenly appeared in the vicinity of Gondolins secret old Way of Escape, shouting and cursing with the creatures of Morgoth watching on. Now given Turgons first hand experience and knowledge of Morgoths unquenchable capacity for evil, he rightly suspected the Bauglirs will behind Húrins reappearance, and acted as a ruler should - by placing the welfare and security of his people before that of his old friend. However, even with his great responsibilities as High King, he could not abide by his own – and arguably correct - decision and outright abandon their friendship, as we see in the Silm. that: Turgon sat long in thought, and was troubled, remembering the deeds of Húrin of Dor-lómin; and he opened his heart, and sent to the eagles to seek for Húrin, and to bring him if they might to Gondolin. But it was too late.

[Lalwendë]

It demonstrates that Aredhel was a spoiled brat. The Noldor were not in Middle-earth to have a jolly good time. There is a quote from an orc that might have done Aredhel a world of good, "Don't you know we're at war?" The Noldor were at war faced with an enemy far beyond their strength. The only thing they could do was make the best of their dire situation. Aredhel, in her empty-headed silliness, willfully disregarded this part of her brother's role and selfishly demanded her own way and the ultimate result was complete disaster. I'm often inclined to think that Maeglin's naughtiness was more a result of his mother's nature than his father's.

I always wonder why, if the Noldor are there to make war, Turgon decides instead to hide. Yes, they may stand a good chance of survival, but when they finally leave their secret hideaway what will they find? It makes me think of those who believed a personal nuclear bunker would help them survive a holocaust - it might well do that but what would they be faced with when they finally emerged? I think Turgon realised too late after bringing his people (and Gondolin was not populated entirely by 'his' people) from Aman that he had brought them into danger so he decided to lock them into Gondolin.

I also don't think Aredhel was empty-headed or silly. Like a lot of women she naturally reacted against the 'protection' that was in fact a restriction. And it was not just Aredhel who Turgon displayed arrogance towards, he was also like this with Eol.

Turgon sat long in thought, and was troubled, remembering the deeds of Húrin of Dor-lómin; and he opened his heart, and sent to the eagles to seek for Húrin, and to bring him if they might to Gondolin. But it was too late.

Hmm, Turgon, a bit like the guy who sees someone being beaten up but has his best clothes on, so instead he rings the police when he gets home. Not quite doing the right thing.

I have to say, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien lays out all these tales and leaves us to judge whether the characters were right or wrong; such distinctions can be more clear cut in LotR than in the Sil. Is this due to the style? Or is it that LotR goes into more narrative detail so we have more chance to learn motives etc? Thinking about Denethor, we are able to see why he acts as he does in LotR as we learn a lot of detail about him, but we do not have the same level (or is it style?) of information for Turgon. Hmm...

[Lalaith]

Exactly, Lalwende. If Turgon just wanted to live in a safe, pretty white city, why didn't he stay in Tirion? Middle-Earth was obviously a bit rougher than he expected.
The only thing I can think of in his defence is that the loss of his wife knocked the gumption out of him.

[drigel]

great points all. I love this blog.

It's the brazen, arrogant ingratitude that sticks in my craw.
It was a strategy that needed dicipline, that's all. IMO Turgon, of all the Kings, came to the realization early (before his inheritance of the thrown) that success would only come from the West, and not from the swords of the Noldor. Different strategy, as in not running around with all that overt hacking and slashing.

imagine if Aragorn decided to lock himself up in a tower and not actually get out there and lead the people?
Imagine if Aragorn was in semi regular conversations with a Vala who offered advice...

As seen with the reaction of Eol, I can well imagine that Turgon might have encountered difficulty in fostering allegiance from all the Elves.
I wouldnt go that far with that conclusion. It was his sister, after all. Those are some great insights into the psychology of Adredhel, though Lal! Thank you for helping me walk a few steps in her evlish sandles!

And why do you have such a high opinion of Finrod and a low opinion of Turgon when the policies they set for their kingdoms were exactly the same? I detect a double-standard here.
The only difference there that I would bring up being that Finrod's kingdom was hidden, and Turgon's (until the last) was inviolate. Only Melian had success at this. If only Finrod had some of Turgon's haughty snobbery, his kingdom would have lasted longer....

Turgon, a bit like the guy who sees someone being beaten up but has his best clothes on, so instead he rings the police when he gets home. Not quite doing the right thing.
To me he did what needed to be done, especially towards the end. After all, his deeds ultimately and finally led to what Mithalwen succintly said: The salvation of all the children of Ea. King indeed.

[Anguirel]

First, I want to attempt an answer to the interesting question Lalwende raised.

I have to say, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien lays out all these tales and leaves us to judge whether the characters were right or wrong; such distinctions can be more clear cut in LotR than in the Sil. Is this due to the style? Or is it that LotR goes into more narrative detail so we have more chance to learn motives etc?

This is part of the reason why I love the Silmarillion above everything else in Tolkien. The process of reading it is like studying mediaeval history-and I mean that entirely as a compliment. We're shown this dramatic, highly coloured, tragic and beautiful world; but we're shown it almost without sources. So in the end our personal taste is decisive and not bound by any conventions. So, at the risk of sounding awfully pious, everyone is right in, for example, this Turgon debate.

As for my own views...I never really admired any of the heroes bound up with the general "let's go and beg to the Valar" approach. Earendil never got near Maedhros in my view for instance. I suppose the words of Feanor held an enduring grasp on my mind.

When I read the Silmarillion, I sided, quite naturally, as I did with the Orkneys in Malory, with the Sons of Feanor. They seemed to me quite the obvious heroes at first. The clear quest to avenge their grandfather and father and regain the jewels, whatever the cost...I supported it utterly. Even in the later Kinslayings, I thought to myself "Idiots! Why don't you give them the gem? It belongs to them!" This seemed to me the obvious, clear approach.

Imagine my surprise when a friend I'd recommended the book to remarked "These Sons of Feanor! They should forget about the jewels and get a grip!" Another slant, and one that might be thought rather more usual...! But it took me a while to sympathise with it.

A final point, to Formendacil, and to Fordim I suppose-Maedhros was, if briefly, High King of the Noldor between his father's death and his renunciation of the crown. You could even make a case (one much beloved by fanfic writers) that Maglor was acting High King during Maedhros' captivity...

[alatar]

Exactly, Lalwende. If Turgon just wanted to live in a safe, pretty white city, why didn't he stay in Tirion? Middle-Earth was obviously a bit rougher than he expected.

Or did he simple not want to play the game of the long defeat, and so instead of throwing lives away that, even if they gave victory in battle, would just be a drop in the blood bucket in the seemingly endless war that was doomed from the beginning to be lost.

And in regards to Húrin Thalion, did he not choose to stand as the rear guard so that Turgon could escape? Does one give a gift then ask to be paid for it? If so, then it is not a gift but a deal, a contract, a business transaction, and so all the less praiseworthy. Surely Húrin's decision to stay behind cost him and his kin dearly, and Turgon is forever is his debt, but this doesn't mean that Turgon is liable to repay anything, and definitely not at the price of Gondolin.

Húrin's mind was tainted by Morgoth, and so his actions after his captivity aren't that of a hero, but of a sad broken man, but what else could he do?

[drigel]

Upon first reading the above list of Kings I really had no idea which way to vote, but after reading the other posts and pondering some sections of the Silmarillion, I’m going for that eternal crowd pleaser …Turgon.

Turgon Appreciation Society: 2 and counting ..?..? sigh:)

the groundswell continues :rolleyes:

[Kuruharan]

For what you ask? Kuru, you *have* forgotten the Fen of Serech, haven't you?

The ingratitude was all on Hurin’s part. You forget that he owed Turgon his life because Turgon set aside the law of his kingdom (twice) by not killing Hurin and then by letting him go free. Hurin repays Turgon by exposing his kingdom to ruin. If that is not ingratitude and betrayal, I don’t know what is.

Note that Hurin owed a personal debt to Turgon. The Fen of Serech was a state matter where the lords of Dor-lomin willingly sacrificed themselves to allow the king of Gondolin to escape. This hardly necessitates a personal response by the king later if it puts his kingdom in danger, as Numenorean has already said.

I always wonder why, if the Noldor are there to make war, Turgon decides instead to hide.

Because Ulmo told him to. The real puzzle is why he decided to come out again.

I also don't think Aredhel was empty-headed or silly.

I’m afraid I have to categorically disagree with your definitions of them then.

Like a lot of women she naturally reacted against the 'protection' that was in fact a restriction.

Then she should not have gone with Turgon in the first place but should have gone to her brother or her father. I’m sure Turgon would have gladly allowed this before she knew the location of his secret kingdom.

And why are you so persistent in overlooking the fact that Aredhel’s little life was not the only one devastated by her actions. That is why she is so empty-headed and silly. Not that her behavior wasn’t dumb on her own behalf, she just refused to acknowledge that there were other things in the world more important than she was and she wrought all sorts of destruction in the wake of her thoughtless frolics.

And it was not just Aredhel who Turgon displayed arrogance towards, he was also like this with Eol.

I am confused...

But Turgon treated him with honour, and rose up and would take his hand; and he said: “Welcome, kinsman, for so I hold you. Here you shall dwell at your pleasure save only that you must here abide and depart not from my kingdom; for it is my law that none who finds the way hither shall depart.”

It was only after Eöl behaved quite rudely that Turgon became surly in turn. Again, he had a whole lot of other people to think about and protect. His earlier leave from his kingdom was already causing all kinds of problems. Why should he do it again?

If only Finrod had some of Turgon's haughty snobbery, his kingdom would have lasted longer

I think you misunderstand the circumstance a little. For one thing, it wasn’t Finrod who lost the kingdom. He only lost his life. Beren wasn’t being trailed by the spies of the enemy nor had he been in Morgoth’s hands for a few decades. Finrod had made a promise. Turgon made no promise of reciprocation to Hurin.

[drigel]

agreed Khuru
that was an attempt to counter the misguided personality sniping of poor old T.

[Lalaith]

One expects to encounter advocates of cold-hearted realpolitik in all too many places these days, but among Tolkien fans....

*shakes head sorrowfully*

[Kuruharan]

One expects to encounter advocates of cold-hearted realpolitik in all too many places these days, but among Tolkien fans....

Romantic gestures and impulses do not a realm maintain.

For Exhibit A I give you Turin.

[the phantom]

"Cold-hearted" is often used in place of "rational" and "right" by people who can't stomach such things.

[Lalaith]

Bah. Go back to your Machiavelli fansites.

[the phantom]

Oh, honey, it hurts when you're so cold-hearted towards me.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hey, wait a minute everyone, hold on, what's that I see on the horizon? It's coming toward the thread very quickly indeed almost as though it were flying with wings of Balrogian capabilty....wait a minute.....I see what it is now......oh no, NO!

THE CHAT SKWEREL!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH!

[the phantom]

You fool! The skwerl had nearly passed us by and would be on its way to another thread had you not felt it necessary to scream and holler about it. Now, I'm afraid, it is here to stay.

The only way to deal with this is to elect a Noldorin King who is able to defeat a chat skwerl. Vote for Feanor! Only his persuasive voice can rid us of this evil! The voice which caused even the herald of the Valar to bow low.

And if it comes to blows, Feanor, who fought alone against many Balrogs, is the only one capable of defeating a skwerl in combat, except for, perhaps, his half-brother Fingolfin.

Feanor is the clear choice! Vote now!

[drigel]

*shakes head sorrowfully*
Like I said, I dont mind being a dissapointment, just as long as I dont dissapoint myself...
:smokin:

I have to say, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien lays out all these tales and leaves us to judge whether the characters were right or wrong; such distinctions can be more clear cut in LotR than in the Sil. Is this due to the style? Or is it that LotR goes into more narrative detail so we have more chance to learn motives etc?

True words. Its all about the exposition. The Gondolin story, like Earendil, Numenor etc., all had legs of their own, so to speak. The Silm after all is an unfinished work.

This does cause me to ponder legacy, because there's a legacy of Turgon's that most assuredly had an impact in TH and LOTR (and my initial reading impressions/perceptions) that is both subtle and wonderful: The blade aquired by Olorin.

[Lalwendë]

Aredhel most closely links to Eowyn. Both are women confined within their realms who wish to do more. Aredhel, like Eowyn, grows in age and eventually realises that she is in fact imprisoned in her 'safety'; we only see Aredhel as one representative of those who might have felt restricted, but it is likely that there would have been others who wished to go beyond the walls of the city. Aredhel even declares to Turgon that she is not his 'slave'. Defiant she may be, but Turgon has no moral 'right' to keep his people from leaving Gondolin. Therein lies the difference between Theoden and Turgon; the former gives his niece a duty to do which she derelicts, the latter only seeks to needlessly confine.

Attempting to keep a body of people in confinement was a doomed venture from the outset. Either you insist that people stay and become a despot and little better than a prison warder to a body of people who have committed no crime, or you let them leave if they wish and face the very real risk that they will reveal the location of this hideout. Either way, you are going to lose.

Eol's reaction to Turgon was entirely expected, and one of the things that I dislike about Turgon is that he did not anticipate such an event occurring when he decided to go ahead with the foundation of Gondolin. Eol was driven to find his wife and child (who he treated as 'possessions' much in the same way that Turgon treated his sister as a 'possession') and furthermore was taunted by another of the Noldor while he sought her. An Elf faced with a superior power who have come to dominate his home, who has lost his wife and child, it is not surprising that he reacted as he did.

He is then told he will be confined to this 'prison' for good. His actions in attempting to kill his family must have been an act of desperation; they would escape confinement but would be reunited in the Halls of Mandos. I am not saying this is right you understand, but a likely consequence of misguided notions.

Eol is then put to death, which although being wrong, even in terms of Tolkien's world, is also inevitable. He could not be kept in Gondolin as he would be a loose cannon, and he cannot be released as he would reveal its location.

I like how all the tales of the Noldor are tales which show us how the Elves, who so many idolise, are not infallible and perfect beings - but expressed by Tolkien almost entirely without moral didacticism, leaving it up to us to argue. ;) . The stories of Turgon are just one example of a flawed Elf, Feanor is much worse. But I enjoy the tales of Feanor much more and find him more thrilling as a character, perhaps because his 'badness' is expressed in terms of action as opposed to politics.

[Aiwendil]

I find this anti-Turgon sentiment fascinating.

Does it make any difference that he "hid" in Gondolin in response to a directive from Ulmo? If the Lord of Waters appeared to me and told me I was the only hope for the Noldor, I'd listen.

[alatar]

I would agree with Lalwendë; it's cool seeing the elves as other than super-model saints.

And what we see, as we discuss Turgon, is his and then others trying to hold back time. All things change, even for the elves, though they might want to deny or slow it. Feanor makes the Silmarils, imperishable, yet these jewels change the face of Arda (and Melkor's ;) ). And the jewels go from earthly items you could have held in your hands to unearthly elemental...things (a star, a water molecule, a shiny rock?). Turgon hopes to sit in an island while Middle Earth founders in Morgoth's sea, but as stated, he should have seen that he could not prevent the inevitable, only delay it, if but for a little while. A mechanism for bleeding off the chaos that would accumulate over the years, for example memory erasure and deportation, may have been a prudent pursuit.

The bad thing about control is that the more you do, the more you need to do. And over the years fear and fear of the new grows, as things may slip, or you just think that they are slipping as you are losing your mind, and so you attempt to control even more.

Adapt. Evolve.

Later, we see again the embalming elves attempt yet again to be Turgon with the creation of the Three Rings.

Though I'm surely contradicting myself, some things never change...

[Kuruharan]

Both are women confined within their realms who wish to do more.

In Aredhel’s case the “more” did not rise above the level of being able to do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted. I’m afraid I cannot consider this to be a particularly noble motive that is worthy of any great consideration when compared to the safety of a kingdom.

Defiant she may be, but Turgon has no moral 'right' to keep his people from leaving Gondolin.

I find this statement rather inexplicable and absurd. (Well, in a certain way. I’m pretty sure I know why you would say something like this, but I’ll not try to put words in your mouth). Turgon was the king. Not only that, his followers followed him of their own free will. You will have to explain why Turgon has no moral right to rule his own kingdom.

the latter only seeks to needlessly confine

Needless? If she hadn’t wanted to go to Gondolin she shouldn’t have gone. It seems you missed the “Don’t you know we’re at war?” bit.

Attempting to keep a body of people in confinement was a doomed venture from the outset. Either you insist that people stay and become a despot and little better than a prison warder to a body of people who have committed no crime, or you let them leave if they wish and face the very real risk that they will reveal the location of this hideout. Either way, you are going to lose.

Indeed, they shouldn’t have left Valinor in the first place. However, I fail to see why this is relevant to the discussion of whether Turgon did his best.

An Elf faced with a superior power who have come to dominate his home, who has lost his wife and child, it is not surprising that he reacted as he did.

-and-

Eol is then put to death, which although being wrong, even in terms of Tolkien's world, is also inevitable.

This is true, but this does not change the fact that he committed murder. I cannot entirely agree that his fate was wrong in terms of Tolkien’s world.

Does it make any difference that he "hid" in Gondolin in response to a directive from Ulmo?

Apparently not because I already asked about this and didn’t get an answer.

[Lalwendë]

I find this statement rather inexplicable and absurd. (Well, in a certain why. I’m pretty sure I know why you would say something like this, but I’ll not try to put words in your mouth). Turgon was the king. Not only that, his followers followed him of their own free will. You will have to explain why Turgon has no moral right to rule his own kingdom.

The people who chose to follow Turgon also chose to go to Gondolin and live there for safety, but the very fact that they are not allowed to leave deprives them of that same free will. That is totalitarian, and I do question whether any leader has the moral right to do that, even in Tolkien's world. A ruler has the right to rule, and of course must do what will work, but sometimes what might seem to work, will ultimately fail; freedom comes at a price, but so does safety. I see that Aredhel would rather risk danger than have her free will removed.

I suppose the closest real world equivalent would have been the USSR (or maybe East Germany) when it was a closed Communist state; people could choose to go and live there but once there, it was made almost impossible for them to leave again. Inevitably, this system was doomed to fail, as depsite the risks there are alwyas those who choose to take them rather than be kept 'safe' but restricted.

I also think that even though I find Turgon's methods questionable and misguided, it was fated that this should happen. If it had not, then other remarkable things would not have happened, and I think that this could be why Ulmo intervened. That is the cruel side of Eru's world; sometimes people do suffer and even die because they are tied to the fate of the world and what will follow.

[Lalaith]

The hiding in Gondolin thing wouldn't be my modus operandi of choice, but that's not why Turgon is my least favourite elf ever. As for the Aredhel/Eol thing, even that doesn't bother me so much, I'll even concede that Turgon was more decent than Thingol would have been.
No, with me it's the Hurin thing, all the way. It wasn't just the miserable cold-heartedness of not letting Thalion into Gondolin, it was the way Turgon reacted to the Dor-lomin sacrifice. Not "oh my goodness, you've all got wives and children waiting for you at home, how can I let you do this." Not, "oh, very well, if you absolutely insist, but I and all my kin will be beholden to you and yours til the world changes".
Instead, Turgon just accepted, nay, expected, that men would act as his cannon-fodder.
You'd never have caught Finrod Felagund behaving like that.

[davem]

In Aredhel’s case the “more” did not rise above the level of being able to do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted. I’m afraid I cannot consider this to be a particularly noble motive that is worthy of any great consideration when compared to the safety of a kingdom.

Have to say this is my feeling too. I don't think Aredhel comes across (or is meant to) as a 'caged bird' only seeking freedom to be herself. She is immature & selfish. She ultimately brings disaster on Gondolin. She leaves because she's bored & comes back trailing disaster in her wake. In many ways her closest analogue is not Eowyn (or Luthien if it comes to that) but Erendis, in the way she ignores the harsh realities of her time in favour of pursuing her own will whatever the cost to others.

Her immaturity is shown not simply in her leaving Gondolin, but also in her running back there when she has gotten herself into trouble. Turgon is a 'nasty dictator' when he strives to keep her in Gondolin (even though it is for her own safety & the protection of the inhabitants of the city) but suddenly becomes a 'protector & safe haven' when she gets herself into a mess.

Turgon is a hero who makes an error of judgement in not listening to the words of Ulmo brought by Tuor. Apart from that one fall from perfection he is wise, compassionate & plays his part in the war against Morgoth. He 'fights the Long Defeat with all the heroism we could expect from a King of the Noldor.

We cannot judge him a 'dictator' as he was living & ruling 'in extremis', if I can put it that way. His decisions were made for the best in very difficult circumstances. I cannot see him behaving in such a way in peacetime. This was not a 'fake' or 'cold' war, but a very real one, where one false move could have brought disaster on his realm & people. That disaster did, ultimately, descend, in the form of his nephew. And his nephew was only there because of Aredhel's immaturity & selfishness. She had made her bed, but refused to lie in it when she found it didn't suit her. She doesn't like being stuck in Gondolin, so she runs away from home. Then she decides she doesn't like being stuck with Eol & just runs away again.

[Anguirel]

So in other words, Lalaith, even more than any intrinsic selfishness in Turgon's actions, you hold them to account because of their relative lack of generosity compared to other Elven lords.

I tend to think this is a valid point. Caranthir-who had the decency to rescue Haleth's people-put a higher price on the lives of the Atani, and he's not thought of as an especially liberal prince. (Perhaps mistakenly.)

As for the much stressed point that Turgon was taking orders from Ulmo...well, once again, this places Turgon firmly among the Elves who get ahead by obeying the Big Shiny Ones. For many of us this just lacks the appeal of heroes who "toiled in the North", like Fingon or Finrod, who rebelled against the Valar but did not shrink from taking on Morgoth openly.

As for Aredhel and Eol...in retrospect, Aredhel had left and returned to Gondolin without threatening its security in the least; could Eol not have been allowed to do the same, his destination after all, Nan Elmoth, being as well hidden as Gondolin itself? No, perhaps not, he was a grim, fell Dark Elf, Turgon's sympathisers might answer. But it might have set a good example, and weakened rather than confirmed Eol's suspicion of the Noldor, had a Noldorin King reached out and made a friend of the gruff Sinda.

It seems to me that Turgon is here a kind of Creon, whose draconian regard for law accelerates the pace of the tragedy.

[drigel]

Ondolindë as East Germany? Oh my head... getting dizzy.... must focus on...

Lal - how about I throw in a gift certificate to Barnes&Noble if you come to one Turgon Appreciation Society Meeting? You wont have to sign in I promise!

:D

[Anguirel]

Looks like your venture, drigel, is as doomed as my twin project-the Curufin Fan Club and the Lomion/Maeglin Appreciation Society...

[Lalwendë]

Turgon is a 'nasty dictator' when he strives to keep her in Gondolin (even though it is for her own safety & the protection of the inhabitants of the city) but suddenly becomes a 'protector & safe haven' when she gets herself into a mess.

indeed, this is how Aredhel might view things, as one who has become unable to fucntion independently. Neither Turgon nor Aredhel are 'right', what she did and what she felt are simply an inevitability of keeping people confined.


Turgon is a hero who makes an error of judgement in not listening to the words of Ulmo brought by Tuor. Apart from that one fall from perfection he is wise, compassionate & plays his part in the war against Morgoth. He 'fights the Long Defeat with all the heroism we could expect from a King of the Noldor.

We cannot judge him a 'dictator' as he was living & ruling 'in extremis', if I can put it that way. His decisions were made for the best in very difficult circumstances. I cannot see him behaving in such a way in peacetime. This was not a 'fake' or 'cold' war, but a very real one, where one false move could have brought disaster on his realm & people.

He is anything but a hero. And he is not wise. His biggest error was to attempt to keep Gondolin a hidden city, though again, it was inevitable that one of the Noldor would try this method. Another society which has become more and more excluded from the rest of the world is Gondor, which has entered a state of stasis by the time of the War of the Ring, become suspicious and inward looking. Likewise, another leader who is operating in 'extremis' is Denethor. We could indeed say that his decisions are taken for the 'best', and if Tolkien had not shown us otherwise (in contrast to how the Sil is written, which is quite 'blank' in didactic terms, in contrast to LotR) then we might also sometimes think Denethor was a 'hero' for 'doing his best'. Being 'in extremis' is no excuse.

Again let me reiterate that I do not think Turgon was evil and Aredhel was right. I do think that Turgon made a terrible decision in attempting to hide Gondolin, and it had disastorus consequences which were inevitable.

To protect such a city would require, at times, quite desperate measures. As shown in what has to be done when Eol turns up and quite violently displays his feelings towards Turgon! This event sees Turgon turn to brutal actions, to slaying a fellow Elf. It also leads Turgon to betraying Hurin, all in the attempt to try and save Gondolin.

What I see the whole situation as, is a simple tragedy. One misguided ruler, and a lot of people who suffer because of his misguided attempts to 'protect' them, and all the more tragic because it was all necessary for other later events to take place, which would be events to turn the tide.

[Formendacil]

The whole Turgon debate... amuses me...

Basically, what I'm getting out of reading it is that Turgon was human (not a "Man", to clarify). He had his good traits, his bad traits, his personal eccentricities. He is a character who changes over time...

In other words, he's not a two-dimensional person. Or, at least, he's fleshed out better than Finwe, Fingolfin, Finarfin, or Fingon... or assorted other Finweans.

[Kuruharan]

The people who chose to follow Turgon also chose to go to Gondolin and live there for safety, but the very fact that they are not allowed to leave deprives them of that same free will. That is totalitarian, and I do question whether any leader has the moral right to do that, even in Tolkien's world.

You are misapplying your terms. Even in the modern world are we completely free to go where we choose across international borders? I seriously doubt Turgon made any undue regulations regarding the movement of his people inside his kingdom. External affairs were governed by the fact that there was this pesky war going on. Nobody in Beleriand was “free” to go frolicking about as they pleased. Turgon adopted absolute secrecy as a matter of policy on the advice of a Vala. The survival of Gondolin, as Turgon himself noted, was utterly dependent on secrecy. Once the kingdom was discovered it was done for.

but sometimes what might seem to work, will ultimately fail

An unimpressive argument. Looked at from a practical perspective, one could hardly know what will work and what will not beforehand.

as one who has become unable to fucntion independently.

And how exactly would you suggest she function on her own “independently?” Would you like to have seen her set up her own realm somewhere?

He is anything but a hero. And he is not wise. His biggest error was to attempt to keep Gondolin a hidden city, though again, it was inevitable that one of the Noldor would try this method.

-and-

I do think that Turgon made a terrible decision in attempting to hide Gondolin, and it had disastorus consequences which were inevitable.

Ulmo.

Instead, Turgon just accepted

What else should he have done? Stayed and died? Hurin and Huor wanted him to go and they did not wish to leave themselves. Useless argument back and forth would not have improved that rotten situation. There was an opportunity and there was only time to accept it or reject it.

You'd never have caught Finrod Felagund behaving like that.

I think he probably would have done the exact same thing.

[davem]

What else should he have done? Stayed and died? Hurin and Huor wanted him to go and they did not wish to leave themselves. Useless argument back and forth would not have improved that rotten situation. There was an opportunity and there was only time to accept it or reject it.

I can only agree here. Its dangerous to base a judgement of Turgon's response to Hurin & Huor's 'offer' on just that moment - especially as its given in the Published Sil. Events are inevitably compressed & there is no psychological analysis given, so we have to make our judgements based on what we know of Turgon & his strong feelings for Hurin & Huor. Based on that we can only say that the decision must have broke his heart. And refusing their offer of self sacrifice would have been insulting. All parties knew they were in a life & death struggle. The survival of Gondolin was essential to the survival of Middle-earth

[Lalwendë]

The survival of Gondolin was essential to the survival of Middle-earth

But it did not survive. It fell in spectacular style. Hiding as a form of defence will only last so long, it is inevitable that it will fail. And if you do manage to hide until you die then those who drove you into hiding have won anyway. Then Gondolin's fall was all the more violent when Morgoth discovered it; like a cat waiting for a mouse to come out of the hole, he was ready to destroy it at the first opportunity.

Natural curiosity drove Aredhel to seek the outside world. It wasn't right or wrong for her to do this, it just happened. Someone would have done this sooner or later, which is why Turgon's attempt to hide Gondolin was doomed. The only way that he could have prevented someone leaving would be to physically prevent this, which would make him as brutal as those he hoped to hide his people from.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

we only see Aredhel as one representative of those who might have felt restricted, but it is likely that there would have been others who wished to go beyond the walls of the city.

Indeed, I believe Maeglin drew his followers from these types of elves,
which was the proximate cause of the fall of Gondolin. An
interesting problem of Gondolin in general, the elves come back to Beleriand
(seen in Galadriel's view) as much as anything for travel, adventure, etc.,
but then the Gondorians have to hide in a much smaller area then
Valinor for their protection.

My impression of Ulmo's thinking was that the Gondolin elves would stay
there as long as possible, then when necessary leave for the south
(the island of Balar?) and wait for the valar to decide to intervene.

[Kuruharan]

But it did not survive. It fell in spectacular style.

But it lasted long enough. After the Battle of Unnumbered Tears it had not yet been long enough.

The only way that he could have prevented someone leaving would be to physically prevent this, which would make him as brutal as those he hoped to hide his people from.

This line of thought is beginning to get silly.

[Raynor]

The fall of Gondolin has two causes, one general (the curse of Mandos "to evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass") and an inherent weakness in the dark elves
The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Noldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the War on the side of the Celbin. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar), and by resentment of their lordliness. The belief of the Celbin that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of Morgoth, if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, the son of Eol... Eol found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar. His son Maeglin was later admitted to Gondolin, and given honour as the king's sisterson; but in the end he betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth. Maeglin was indeed an Elf of evil temper and dark mind, and he had a lust and grudge of his own to satisfy; but even so he did what he did only after torment and under a cloud of fear. Some of the Nandor, who were allowed to be Celbin, were not any better. Saeros, a counsellor of King Thingol, who belonged to a small clan of Nandor living in eastern Doriath, was chiefly responsible for the driving into outlawry of Turin son of Hurin. Turin's mother was named Morwen 'dark maiden', because of her dark hair, and it was one of Saeros' worst insults to call her Morben. For that Turin smote him in the king's hall. The BoLT version of the Fall attributes even more guilt to Maeglin:
But the rede that Meglin gave to Melko was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Melko to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.

[Anguirel]

Frankly, "inherent weakness in the Dark Elves" is not something I'm prepared to allow any credence. I put it down to the prejudice of Noldor translators, reflecting as badly as Calaquendi as on Moriquendi.

Besides, that version seems highly confused as to where Dark Elves end and Sindar begin. Eol is one of the Sinda ethnically; he is called "the Dark Elf" in the same sense as Caranthir is called "the Dark".

I think one of Turgon's more obvious redeeming features is the honour he allowed to Maeglin despite his birth. It's sad that fate and Morgoth twisted Maeglin, an Elf of the greatest skill and potential, into ill repaying it.

And that leads back to the Curse of Mandos...which originates from the Valar...which means that, as a Noldo, I would have seen far more sense in directly opposing Morgoth in arms than plotting to obtain Valarin aid...

[Lalwendë]

I'll explain my silly argument a little more.

We know that if Gondolin had not survived then Earendil would not have been born, ergo, the Valar would not have been called to deal with Morgoth. We also know that Turgon was not around to see this happen; all he was doing was following an instruction to build Gondolin. But to attempt to keep a people confined forever, even if it is for their own safety, is simply doomed to failure as those people will want out at some point. That is how people are, even Elves in a book. War or no war, people do not always follow rules and Tolkien's world is no different. Even Turgon himself broke the rules by leaving Valinor.

Turgon was also most definitely not a tyrant; as I have already said, to force people to stay would be the behaviour of a tyrant, but he does not do this as he allows his sister to leave. His downfall on her return is his stupid pride. When Eol comes to Gondolin he will not allow him the possibility of leaving. His pride is hurt as this other Elf, an Elf who is not one of the Noldor, has taken his sister without 'permission'. He clearly will not even contemplate listening to Eol. Had he done this he could have found himself in a stronger situation; instead he causes Eol, who is equally full of stupid pride, to react with violence.

Firstly, Turgon follows his 'orders', but how he follows them matters. And Secondly, his 'orders' are a suicide mission in the first place as Gondolin is doomed to failure - simply as Elves are not perfect beings, nor are they automata, they inevitably have personalities which may manifest in the desire to leave.

[Kuruharan]

But to attempt to keep a people confined forever, even if it is for their own safety, is simply doomed to failure as those people will want out at some point.

This does not release the protectors from their duty to try.

people do not always follow rules

Clearly there should never be any rules of any sort because somebody at some point is going to break them.

When Eol comes to Gondolin he will not allow him the possibility of leaving.

Because he'd already seen that bad things came of letting people go. I realize you will not pay attention to this next bit, but I'm going to say it anyway. Somebody else might appreciate it. Eol would not have been a reliable person to have running around on the outside. Granted, he would not have been likely to have told another elf the location of Gondolin because he tried to avoid his own people as much as possible. He might have told the dwarves though. Through them sooner or later the secret probably would have come out. Even if that did not happen, after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Eol would have been caught in his wood by Morgoth's rampaging forces and he would have been broken. There was just no upside to Turgon for letting Eol loose and a huge danger.

And Secondly, his 'orders' are a suicide mission in the first place as Gondolin is doomed to failure

So was the whole Revolt of the Noldor, as I have said a number of times. You are not gaining any traction bringing this up over and over again. Would you have preferred they just launch a frontal assault and get it over with? That was certainly Feanor's way. I suppose the poor emotionally stunted Elves could then have "freely" scampered about helplessly as they were getting chopped into itty, bitty pieces.

[Formendacil]

Frankly, "inherent weakness in the Dark Elves" is not something I'm prepared to allow any credence. I put it down to the prejudice of Noldor translators, reflecting as badly as Calaquendi as on Moriquendi.

I think I've just figured out something about you, Anguirel, that's been troubling the back of my mind for a while now: you don't seem to like the concept of clearly delineated good and evil...

Maybe it's completely wrong, but this "revelation" of mine makes me sit much more at ease. The Sons of Feanor, Maeglin... it all makes sense now why you prefer the makers of major mistakes rather than those people who actually did a decent job of staying on the "good" side of things.

Besides, that version seems highly confused as to where Dark Elves end and Sindar begin. Eol is one of the Sinda ethnically; he is called "the Dark Elf" in the same sense as Caranthir is called "the Dark".

Actually, no.

Eöl was not always a Sinda in Tolkien's mind. The version presented in the Silmarillion regarding him being a Teler of high and noble birth (in other words, a Sinda akin to Elu Thingol) is not the only version Tolkien put forth. Also highly popular was the idea that Eöl was one of the Avari- and of Tatyarian (ie. Noldorin) origin, and thus completely unakin to Thingol and the Sindar. In this idea, Tolkien uses Eöl's distant kinship with the Noldor as part of the reason for his hatred of them.

My point being, of course, that Eöl is not exactly a proven Sinda... and at the time of quoted passage, he seems to have been accounted among the Avari.

And that leads back to the Curse of Mandos...which originates from the Valar...which means that, as a Noldo, I would have seen far more sense in directly opposing Morgoth in arms than plotting to obtain Valarin aid...

The only thing being that Morgoth kept proving time and again his ability to muster enormous armies, and as the Silmarillion shows, Morgoth's armies just kept on growing, while the Elven forces got smaller, and smaller, and smaller...

At least the Valar would have been remembered as benevolent (before the rebellion). I'd say that their hopes there, if slim, were not entirely unjustified.

[Raynor]

Frankly, "inherent weakness in the Dark Elves" is not something I'm prepared to allow any credence. Why? The Calaquendi are greatly increased in power and abilities by their association with the valar.
Besides, that version seems highly confused as to where Dark Elves end and Sindar begin.I think you are confusing Eldar with the elves of the light; the first are those who set out on the march; the second are those who actually saw the light of the Trees; the sindar are, therefore, of the elves of darkness, with Thingol the exception.

[Lalwendë]

Clearly there should never be any rules of any sort because somebody at some point is going to break them.

I am sorry but that is a reductive argument and it just isn't worth going there. :rolleyes:

It is a fact that Turgon's Gondolin was doomed to fail. That is part of the tragedy. I find it interesting that he was bidden to build the place and keep it secret even though it would be destroyed along with everyone in the realm apart from a handful of survivors. Was this Eru/the Valar extracting a 'price' from Turgon for being part of the rebellion? I think so. None of the Noldor who left Valinor ultimately succeeded in Middle-earth, even Galadriel was forced eventually to give up her dreams of power and 'diminish'.

As for releasing a prisoner? It has been done before. I seem to remember a certain treacherous Gollum who was allowed to live. What a disaster it would have been for Middle-earth if another attitude had been taken instead. Mercy plays a big role in Tolkien's world. Funnily enough, mercy seems to be much more valued than vengeance or pride. Leaders are defined by their capacity to use it, and also shown to fail when pride takes its place.

But what did I say? I did not suggest that Eol should be released. I merely mentioned that Turgon refused to listen to him. And that is Turgon's main fault. He does not listen. He approaches the situation incorrectly. His pride takes over and he 'decrees' an order to Eol, who is not one of his people. Turgon lacks diplomacy skills in this situation. It's an age old story and one that occurs elsewhere in Tolkien's work - how Pride Comes Before A Fall.

Frankly, "inherent weakness in the Dark Elves" is not something I'm prepared to allow any credence. I put it down to the prejudice of Noldor translators, reflecting as badly as Calaquendi as on Moriquendi.

Anguirel can correct me if I'm wrong but I think he's talking about moral weakness. Those Elves who did not go to Valinor and live under the Light of the two trees are not any less moral than those who did. In fact the story of the Noldor rebellion and the Kinslaying shows that the Noldor really are no more 'moral' than those who never went to Valinor. An Elf's natural 'place' is in Valinor, but the fact of having been there does not mean that an Elf is any better morally.

[davem]

It is a fact that Turgon's Gondolin was doomed to fail. That is part of the tragedy. I find it interesting that he was bidden to build the place and keep it secret even though it would be destroyed along with everyone in the realm apart from a handful of survivors. Was this Eru/the Valar extracting a 'price' from Turgon for being part of the rebellion? I think so. None of the Noldor who left Valinor ultimately succeeded in Middle-earth, even Galadriel was forced eventually to give up her dreams of power and 'diminish'.

I can't see it as a 'price' being exacted in that sense at all. The creation & survival of Gondolin was essential to the ultimate destruction of Morgoth, both in the fear & uncertainty it created in his mind & in the fact that it provided a safe haven for Tuor & Idril to marry & have Earendel.

Gondolin was vital. Turgon knew this, & if he over-reacted (which is questionable), he certainly ensured the downfall of Morgoth. If he had been in any sense a 'dictator' we know that he would have been replaced - we only have to look at the situation that developed in Nargothrond to see that there was no sense of 'divine right of Kings' which could leave an unpopular leader in power. The fierce loyalty Turgon inspired shows that he was in no way considered unreasonable or unfair by his people.

I merely mentioned that Turgon refused to listen to him. And that is Turgon's main fault. He does not listen. He approaches the situation incorrectly. His pride takes over and he 'decrees' an order to Eol, who is not one of his people. Turgon lacks diplomacy skills in this situation. It's an age old story and one that occurs elsewhere in Tolkien's work - how Pride Comes Before A Fall.

I can't see that Eol was all that deserving of respect or of being listened to - he was a thoroughly unpleasant piece of work who showed no respect to others, & started laying down the law to Turgon. If 'pride does come before a fall' I think that would apply more to Eol (in more ways than one ;) )

Those Elves who did not go to Valinor and live under the Light of the two trees are not any less moral than those who did. In fact the story of the Noldor rebellion and the Kinslaying shows that the Noldor really are no more 'moral' than those who never went to Valinor. An Elf's natural 'place' is in Valinor, but the fact of having been there does not mean that an Elf is any better morally.

I'm not sure its a question of 'moral superiority' of the elves who went into the West. Its that they went. The point, I think, is that they chose the Light over the Darkness. The Avari & the Sindar rejected the chance of the Light & choose to remain in the Darkness. The rebelling Noldor may have 'fallen' but where did they 'land'? Well, right alongside the Sindar & Avari. The Sindar & Avari may not have 'fallen' in the same way but that's because they had never 'risen' in the first place - because they refused the chance.


I think you are confusing Eldar with the elves of the light; the first are those who set out on the march; the second are those who actually saw the light of the Trees; the sindar are, therefore, of the elves of darkness, with Thingol the exception.

thingol is an interesting case. He did see the Light, but rejected it. Effectively (a point Flieger makes) he chose the 'reflected' light in the face of Melian over the direct light of the Trees. He is called 'Greycloak' after all.

[Kuruharan]

I am sorry but that is a reductive argument and it just isn't worth going there.

You started it (and I was being sarcastic).

It is a fact that Turgon's Gondolin was doomed to fail.

This fact has nothing to do with whether or not Turgon did his best for his people or whether or not he was a tyrant.

I find it interesting that he was bidden to build the place and keep it secret even though it would be destroyed along with everyone in the realm apart from a handful of survivors.

You forget that Tuor's errand was to tell Turgon that it was time to get out of town. This is when he made his prideful mistake. He was given a chance to get out.

He approaches the situation incorrectly. His pride takes over and he 'decrees' an order to Eol, who is not one of his people.

Eol had more or less willingly entered Turgon's realm. That alone gave Turgon come claim over him. Besides, you can hardly condone murder, even if the culprit is a foreigner.

And, don't forget, Turgon was inclined to spare Eol until his silly sister died.

I can't see it as a 'price' being exacted in that sense at all.

I have to disagree with this a little bit. I do think that the Curse was at work here and that it played a role in Turgon's death. However, Turgon was unique in that he was given the opportunity to potentially escape. Perhaps his willingness to ask mercy from the Valar was instrumental in Ulmo giving him this chance (although the escape warning was built into the Gondolin deal at the beginning).

Speaking of the message to the Valar, the mariners obviously left Gondolin.

The fierce loyalty Turgon inspired shows that he was in no way considered unreasonable or unfair by his people.

Hear him! Hear him!

[Lalwendë]

I can't see it as a 'price' being exacted in that sense at all. The creation & survival of Gondolin was essential to the ultimate destruction of Morgoth, both in the fear & uncertainty it created in his mind & in the fact that it provided a safe haven for Tuor & Idril to marry & have Earendel.

But therein lies the rub. The very existence of a place which he cannot find must have made Morgoth even more determined to find and destroy the place, and when he does find it, he brings all his might to bear on it. That is a risk that Turgon must have been all too well aware of. Gondolin was on borrowed time from the beginning. The Elves who lived there, who included a great number of Sindar, were incredibly vulnerable.

Again I have to say (and how tired I am of saying it :rolleyes: ) that of course Gondolin was where Earendil was born and so of course it had to exist..... The essential tragedy is that the vast majority of the population of Gondolin would be slaughtered and it was inevitable that they would be slaughtered. I would like to hear what was said in The Halls of Mandos by those who did not survive. This is the cruel side of Tolkien's world, that so many are put to the sword in order that others may live. But I do wonder if these people may have been saved, as Turgon was said to have become overly proud of his city and even though warned to evacuate, he did not.

The fierce loyalty Turgon inspired shows that he was in no way considered unreasonable or unfair by his people.

But as shown in what happened with Aredhel, it only took one single person to dissent for the whole house of cards to come tumbling down.

I can't see that Eol was all that deserving of respect or of being listened to - he was a thoroughly unpleasant piece of work who showed no respect to others, & started laying down the law to Turgon. If 'pride does come before a fall' I think that would apply more to Eol (in more ways than one )

Eol and Turgon are very similar in terms of pride. One resents the incomer who represents a 'conquering power', the other is too proud to listen to what is said and why it might be said in anger. I don't know that we can say Eol showed 'no respect to others' as we only know him in relation to his family and to Turgon; the Dwarves seem to accord him with a great deal of respect so we can also guess that he was not always 'a thoroughly unpleasant piece of work'.

Eol had more or less willingly entered Turgon's realm. That alone gave Turgon come claim over him. Besides, you can hardly condone murder, even if the culprit is a foreigner.

And, don't forget, Turgon was inclined to spare Eol until his silly sister died.

It is a situation that is badly handled by Turgon. In his urgency to maintain the secrecy of Gondolin he loses his head when dealing with this unexpected situation. He welcomes Maeglin (who in his turn is undoubtedly tempted to stay because of the sight of Idril), he tells Eol that he will have to stay. Eol chooses death for his son and himself and Aredhel throws herself in the way. The situation escalates rapidly as Turgon begins by issuing an order, not by listening. I have no doubt that what is paramount in his mind is keeping Gondolin safe and not trying to assess the situation. This is something he did not anticipate, and he again fails in not considering all the risks of the situation he has bound himself and his people to.

[davem]

The very existence of a place which he cannot find must have made Morgoth even more determined to find and destroy the place, and when he does find it, he brings all his might to bear on it. That is a risk that Turgon must have been all too well aware of. Gondolin was on borrowed time from the beginning.

Bujt isn't this the point - the very determination it inspired in Morgoth distracted him, confused his counsels & made it more difficult to conduct his war in the way he would have wanted. Of course Gondolin was on borrowed time from the beginning, but 'fighting the Long Defeat is pretty much the Elves' raison d'etre.

[Kuruharan]

The very existence of a place which he cannot find must have made Morgoth even more determined to find and destroy the place, and when he does find it, he brings all his might to bear on it.

Hmmm...apparently you subscribe to the school of warfare that holds one should fight one's wars with an eye toward making happy and accommodating one's enemies. I'm afraid I don't agree with that.

The Elves who lived there, who included a great number of Sindar, were incredibly vulnerable.

Which is exactly why secrecy was so vitally important.

it only took one single person to dissent

The way you talk about her implies too much nobility to her motives. To hear you speak, it almost sounds like you think she was some brave political activist engaged in a life-and-death struggle attempting to overthrow the cruel regime of Comrade Stalgon. This was not the case at all. She was a silly, empty-headed little nitwit who had no higher aspiration than to go a-Maying at the most inopportune moments.

the Dwarves seem to accord him with a great deal of respect

Eol was probably a very useful spy. I don't know if that is exactly the same thing as respect.

I have no doubt that what is paramount in his mind is keeping Gondolin safe and not trying to assess the situation.

The security of Gondolin meant that there was nothing to assess. Some things are non-negotiable. Turgon politely informed Eol of this at the beginning. Try to think of it as Turgon extending a courtesy rather than giving an order.

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm...apparently you subscribe to the school of warfare that holds one should fight one's wars with an eye toward making happy and accommodating one's enemies. I'm afraid I don't agree with that.

I don't get how you infer this. I am simply asking whether it is right to keep a large population of people in such a situation.

The way you talk about her implies too much nobility to her motives. To hear you speak, it almost sounds like you think she was some brave political activist engaged in a life-and-death struggle attempting to overthrow the cruel regime of Comrade Stalgon. This was not the case at all. She was a silly, empty-headed little nitwit who had no higher aspiration than to go a-Maying at the most inopportune moments.

If only it was so interesting. :rolleyes: Alas, Aredhel is simply doing what someone would have wanted to do anyway. 100% loyalty can never be expected, and there will always be someone who wants out. It is one of the first principles of management that you should never expect everyone to always follow the agenda, because people just aren't like that. You have to plan for that eventuality and Turgon did not. Or perhaps it was a cath-22 situation from the beginning, as let someone leave and you risk them revealing the location of the place but keep them in and they could foster revolt.

Maybe Turgon did not know his sister all that well, as she had been accustomed to hunting and riding with Feanor's sons while in Valinor. If he had considered this he may have discouraged her from joining them. Even so, its likely someone else would have wanted to leave. That's just life.

The security of Gondolin meant that there was nothing to assess. Some things are non-negotiable. Turgon politely informed Eol of this at the beginning. Try to think of it as Turgon extending a courtesy rather than giving an order.

Simply by not assessing the situation he increased the risk factor for Gondolin. It's not always clever to be inflexible.

[Kuruharan]

I don't get how you infer this.

I infer this from…

The very existence of a place which he cannot find must have made Morgoth even more determined to find and destroy the place, and when he does find it, he brings all his might to bear on it.

Eru forbid that Turgon actually go so far as to annoy Morgoth. It might make Morgoth angry and we wouldn’t want that.

I am simply asking whether it is right to keep a large population of people in such a situation.

Under the circumstances, why not?

Alas, Aredhel is simply doing what someone would have wanted to do anyway.

Odd, we don’t hear about anybody except for her…

100% loyalty can never be expected, and there will always be someone who wants out. It is one of the first principles of management that you should never expect everyone to always follow the agenda, because people just aren't like that.

This doesn’t mean you have to kow-tow to the 1% of malcontents who are causing trouble for no particular benefit to anybody but themselves.

You have to plan for that eventuality and Turgon did not.

The plan was probably to say, “No.”

If he had considered this he may have discouraged her from joining them.

Maybe he tried to but she pouted and whined and wanted to go. It probably seemed like a great adventure at the time.

That's just life.

Odd, I would say the exact same thing to Aredhel.

Simply by not assessing the situation he increased the risk factor for Gondolin. It's not always clever to be inflexible.

What was there to assess? As I have said a number of times before Eol=Security Risk. Security=Prime Consideration, especially because of the trouble the first breach caused.

[alatar]

One misguided ruler, and a lot of people who suffer because of his misguided attempts to 'protect' them, and all the more tragic because it was all necessary for other later events to take place, which would be events to turn the tide.

When writing the last SbS entry, I watched Grima, using Theoden as a prop, banish Eomer from the realm. That got me to thinking, as it wasn't Grima alone who did this. He had help; those who willingly followed his orders as though they were from the King.

In regards to Turgon, he could not have held the people against their will unless he had some support from others. He could have spouted off as much as he wanted about maintaining the secrecy of Gondolin, but everyone else could have laughed and walked out of the gate. But this did not happen. Most, and seemingly in this case it's a very high percentage, stayed either for fear of the outside, in respect for the King's wishes/law, or were happy within the walls.

Where's Turgon in all of that? Did they all wear chains?

I think that we at times point to the leader and blame him/her for all that goes wrong, not seeing that many times the problem lies with all of us in allowing/following/not correcting such a leader. Sometimes the person out in front doesn't step forward, everyone else just stepped back.

The other thought sprung fom reading this thread was, at times, my friends and I have played the mental exercise of 'lifeboat.' Not that that's the name, as it could be 'bunker,' 'spacecraft,' etc. The game is that you have too many people and not enough room/supplies. You are given hypothetical people and from that list, you have to choose who stays inside and who goes in the ocean/out the door/out the airlock.

The exercise gives you a glimpse into people's decision-making process, and you can get into some fun arguments, but it's just hypothetical. I think that if it came down to it, many people would not be able to make the hard decisions necessary for some to survive, and so as a result, all would die. Luckily, there are those that can make the hard decisions. Our ancestors all were these type of people, and some of the things that they may have done we now may find repugnant, but we're here now because of what they did.

Turgon made the hard calls. His heart may have said otherwise, but, as it was a cold but nuclear war with Morgoth, he had to slay Eol.

It's easy to say that we'd not have done the same.

[davem]

OK, stepping back & trying to see both sides of the argument....

I think we all accept that Turgon was not perfect, & in the end he fell into error. He started out a bit like someone concerned with their health, taking excercise, avoiding smoking, etc, in order to live a longer, healthier life. In the end, though, he seems to have crossed the line & convinced himself that if he took enough precautions he could ensure his survival indefinitely.

The fall of Gondolin is fated & at the last Turgon refuses to leave because of pride & love of the place. In the end he 'outlived his usefulness' & proved a hindrance to all concerned. 'Love not too well the works of thy hands' is the theme being played out.

The best we can say for Aredhel is that she perhaps suffered from the Elvish flaw of restlessness within Middle-earth. This is something we cannot underestimate. Gondolin maybe reminded her too much of the West, yet it wasn't the West.

I don't think there are any real 'monsters' on the Elvish side. Aredhel is no more, or less, 'immature' than many Elves. Incarceration, even in a palace, is still incarceration, & sometimes the line between the escape of the prisoner & the flight of the deserter is very difficult to define. Aredhel was in a sense both an escaping prisoner & a fleeing deserter. Turgon was both her protector & her jailer.

And in the end, the fall of Gondolin was inevitable for so many reasons that scapegoating any individual is missing the point.

[Thinlómien]

Or maybe Aredhel was no nitwit or hero, it was just her fate to leave the city and meet Eol etc.? ;)

Turgon made the hard calls. His heart may have said otherwise, but, as it was a cold but nuclear war with Morgoth, he had to slay Eol. And use his attack against Maeglin which killed Aredhel as a reason also? This leads to an interesting question; did Elves use capital punishment?

[Kuruharan]

The situation suggests they did. However, I wouldn't think they used it a lot.

[Thinlómien]

The situation suggests they did. However, I wouldn't think they used it a lot.
Or maybe some elves did and some didn't? Can you think of any other death sentence cases among elves?

And I just started to ponder, if capital punishment was a heavier or a lighter punishment for elves than for men?

[alatar]

And in the end, the fall of Gondolin was inevitable for so many reasons that scapegoating any individual is missing the point.

You just know that in all of these tales that chaos has to enter the picture sometime, as what's the point? We could read endless pages where nothing of import happens in Gondolin, then after the War of Wrath Turgon and company could poke their heads out of their shells and go back to the West.

There's an exciting read. ;)

Paradise, like the rest of the universe, succumbs sooner or later to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It's like holding your breath; you can give in sooner and breathe normally, or hold it as long as you can, then finally be forced to breathe and so have to suck wind to catch back up.

R1

[Thinlómien]

Good heavens!! Finrod? Maedhros?

The poll is about High Kings of the Noldor, not just plain old kings. Why do you go advocating Thingol or Dior? After all, if one can disregard the High part of the poll why not disregard the Noldor part? Or, for that matter, why limit it to Kings at all? Why not just go with favourite Middle-Earthian character? Or favourite fictional character? Or favourite person real or feigned?

Seriously, the way people around here are unable to vote within the confines of any poll presented irks me... If Fordim had wanted his silly poll to be about Noldorin kings in general, he would have made it about that, but he didn't.
You, Formendacil, must be amused when you hear that I voted for Fingon, because he was Maedhros's friend and saved him...

[the guy who be short]

And I just started to ponder, if capital punishment was a heavier or a lighter punishment for elves than for men?Almost definitely worse, considering only three Kin-Slayings amongst the Eldar against countless by men.

[drigel]

Paradise, like the rest of the universe, succumbs sooner or later to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

And in the end, the fall of Gondolin was inevitable for so many reasons that scapegoating any individual is missing the point.

Well put. I would conjecture that the existence of Gondolin (unmolested) is as important as its demise. In a Turgon led Gondolin, we have a vision of what the Noldorian/Sindarian kingdoms would look like, if Morgoth was not in their world. An ideal of purety and strength that IMO was vital, necessary, and important to the psyche of the Exiles. The question of whether or not all those Noldor would have come to ME if it weren't for Morgoth can be debated, but the importance of the idea of Gondolin (IMO) can not be.

I would further conjecture that this archetype (if you will) was as imperative for the Exiles as the strategic importance was, in the battle against Morgoth. IMO, it was at the very least, as great an influence on the Exile's psyche as it was on Morgoth's sense of doom that was going to recieve as a result from Turgon. This is why I think (at least in my mind) the legacy of Gondolin exceeds the other Noldorian kingdoms of the 1st age.

[Formendacil]

You, Formendacil, must be amused when you hear that I voted for Fingon, because he was Maedhros's friend and saved him...

Amused?

Perhaps...

But at least you actually voted for one of the real High Kings, rather than petulantly going on about a non-High King. If your reasons were silly... then, well, this is a silly poll.

Oh, and regarding a long-since-made point regarding Maedhros as High King of the Noldor before his abdication in favour of Fingolfin- he wasn't.

Or, rather, when he waived his right to throne in favour of Fingolfin, he was saying that he had never been High King, that it should have descended to him next anyway. Otherwise, his abdication would simply have meant the succession of Maglor to the Noldorin High Kingship. But by waiving the claim of the entire Fëanorian House on the pretext that Fingolfin was the Eldest of the Finwëans, he was saying that Fingolfin had been High King from Fëanor's death- thus saying that he had never been High King.

Whether or not Maedhros was legalistically RIGHT in that matter is a different question, but the point is that Maedhros himself basically said he was never High King.

[Lalaith]

Nothing silly about Thinolomien's reason. Same as mine....

[Lalwendë]

You just know that in all of these tales that chaos has to enter the picture sometime, as what's the point? We could read endless pages where nothing of import happens in Gondolin, then after the War of Wrath Turgon and company could poke their heads out of their shells and go back to the West.

There's an exciting read. ;)

Paradise, like the rest of the universe, succumbs sooner or later to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It's like holding your breath; you can give in sooner and breathe normally, or hold it as long as you can, then finally be forced to breathe and so have to suck wind to catch back up.

R1

Well, I suppose that we could say that we wouldn't even be discussing the motivation of Turgon if Gondolin hadn't been destroyed. It might just be another footnote in HoME. And I wonder if this would have been the case if Aredhel had been stopped from leaving? I have to say I'm still suspicious that someone else would have tried it. ;) But putting that aside for now as it's going around in circles and I guess that Kuruharan and I shall have to agree to disagree, there's another question. Was it Aredhel's mishaps that were the catalyst for Turgon's fame?

What I'm getting at is that we all like to weigh up our heroes, but without the people who do foolish or evil things, what heroes would there be?

That's why even though I think Gil-Galad was the best King in moral terms, I find Feanor the most exciting; he was the one who added most value to the story for me, because he did the wrong things in spectacular style.

[Kuruharan]

Was it Aredhel's mishaps that were the catalyst for Turgon's fame?

I don't think so. When a prominent person mysteriously vanishes without a trace, that is usually enough to garner a large amount of fame. Mysteries are eternally intriguing. I think the scale and audacity of what he did also play a role.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Lalwendë, Kuruharan and anyone else interested in Aredhel, Turgon and the Fall of Gondolin might be interested in Lush's thread Aredhel the bad girl? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1173) over in Books. My own opinion on the issue is discussed there at some length, and perhaps it can be revived for fresh controversy.

[Holbytlass]

Alas, I myself cannot participate in this poll because I don't fully (and some not at all) know these figures. Which brings me to the reason why I posted in the first place-curious, why is this in "Novices and Newcomers"? By sheer definition most won't be familiar with them.

[Elu Ancalime]

I think I'll continue disscussion as soon as it moves to Gil-Galad.
________
Rambler classic specifications (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Rambler_Classic)

[Kuruharan]

You may consider it moved. I think Lalwende and myself are done.

[Formendacil]

Alas for poor Elu Ancalime, but the Downers were apparently not all that divided on the subject of Gil-galad, Last High King of the Noldor...

While I hope any readers brought to this thread via my necroposting enjoy the topic (probably easier if they just ignore the existence of the 19-year-old Formendacil contained herein), I actually resurrected it as much because it brought up a query as because I feel the need to reiterate that Gil-galad is the best High King the Noldor ever had: is there yet any active Downer with the power to create Poll Threads? Not that I have a specific poll thread to pitch, but it occurs to me that this could have its place as a stimulator of conversation here and there and that it is a forum function no longer to be exercised.

And on the subject of Gil-galad, I wonder whether those of us who form the pro-Gil-galad voting bloc all agree on his parentage? It seems to me that he might well have suffered in the polls for his indeterminate status.

[Galadriel55]

Without looking at the thread, I made a vote for Fingolfin. I was debating if I should vote for Feanor or Fingon, and ended up compromising by picking one with both fairness/kindness and spirit/might.

I like Gil-Galad well enough, but I prefer the passions of the First Age. ;)



However, I second the question: are there still members with poll thread abilities?