Middle-earth Mysteries

[Sardy]

Here's a thread for listing and discussing some of the great unanswered mysteries of Middle-earth. what has Tolkien left unexplained? what loose end are we just dying to learn more about?

Off the top of my head:

1. The Blue Wizards. What ever became of them?

2. Saruman's Ring. what were it's powers? Where was it's power derived from? (My personal opinion is that Saruman crafted the ring himself, but it was bound to the One Ring and Sauron - the tragedy of Saruman being that he became so obsessed with Ring lore that he fell victim to the same fate as the other intended ring victims).

3. The Entwives. Where are they?

[Frodo Baggins]

I think I can sort of answer number 3. I believe the Entwives ended up in the Shire.

Treebeard told Marry and Pippin that the Entwives would have loved the Shire when they described it to him. Also, at the beginning of the whole saga, before there's mention of Rings and dark lords and something about the end of the world, Sam says his cousin saw a tree on the northern borders of the Shire walking "Seven feet to a stride if it was an inch". Perhaps this was an Entwife?

Saruman called himself "ring maker" although I'm not sure just what that ring of his was supposed to do except make him Saurons competitor for world domination. I would love to know what it looked like. Perhaps because he was of many colours his ring also was of many colours?

[radagastly]

You forgot to ask "What is Tom Bombadil?"

Seriously, an excellent topic!

I have to agree about Saruman's Ring. Except for one thing. For some time now, I've thought that the reason that Saruman's Ring failed him was because he was an imitative despot, at best. What I mean is that he was not willing to seperate himself from his power to the extent that Sauron was, he was not willing to put so much of himself into his Ring. He was vain, and ambitious. As I recall, (and I don't have access to the Letters), Sauron wanted to order the world for it's own good, according to his own designs. His motives were pure, even generous (in his own mind) , at least at the beginning. Saruman, on the other hand, wanted power for it's own sake, and ultimately found it empty and ineffective. Someone recently (and I don't remember who--if someone else remembers, let me know), had a quote in their signature that said (as best as I can remember) "The most inappropriate job of any man is that of the boss of other men. None are suited for it, least of all those who aspire to the position." (It's a quote from Tolkien, though I don't know from where.)

That's Saruman and his Ring, as I see it. He wanted to be the "boss of other men." Sauron didn't.

[Farael]

As I recall, (and I don't have access to the Letters), Sauron wanted to order the world for it's own good, according to his own designs. His motives were pure, even generous (in his own mind) , at least at the beginning. Saruman, on the other hand, wanted power for it's own sake, and ultimately found it empty and ineffective.

Well, I must say I never read the letters but I thought it was the other way about. If I'm not mistaken, when Saruman tries to convince Gandalf to join his side he talks about ordering the world for it to be the "proper way". He seems misguidingly altruistic (as in trying to convince himself that he is acting for the greater good of mankind when instead he's just making up excuses for his desire for power). On the other hand, Sauron seems to want power for power itself. he's willing to destroy, burn and kill his way to power, even if it's power over a barren land.

Yet I have never read the letters and I'm basing my argument solely on LoTR (and that, quoting off my memory). Tolkien might have said otherwise.

[Inziladun]

Referring to question 1, the "Blue Wizards" ( who were named Alatar and Pallando) apparently went off east and south of northwest Middle Earth. JRRT said they were emissaries to lands that were out of Númenorean range. They seem to have failed in their mission and were possibly the beginners of magic cults that outlasted Sauron's fall.

[Balin999]

Sam says his cousin saw a tree on the northern borders of the Shire walking "Seven feet to a stride if it was an inch".

You're forgetting that the Entwives didn't resemble the Ents in form and statue.
Treebeard says that they had round faces, were smaller and more concerned with the Earth and blossoms. So the tree in the Shire could only have been a male Ent.
I hate to say it, but I'm rather pessimistic concerning the entwives.
Since they had their gardens in what later became the Brown Lands, they might have died in the Great War.

[Frodo Baggins]

Well, I never said Sam's cousin didn't see a round faced tree walking. And besides, from a Hobbit's prespective even if it were smaller than an ent it would be pretty durn big. And may it was only five feet to a straide? :rolleyes: ;)

[Balin999]

That may be true, but the Entwives still didn't look like trees (as far as I remember), and the one in the Shire was resembling a tree, so... ;)

And it was seen by a cousin who was regarded to as being a little stupid, so the whole story is quite... fishy.

[Formendacil]

That may be true, but the Entwives still didn't look like trees (as far as I remember), and the one in the Shire was resembling a tree, so... ;)
.

Any idea where you're getting this from? Not saying it's wrong, just that I can't recall ANYTHING about the Entwives' looks anywhere...

And, for what it's worth, the females of a species usually tend to resemble the males somewhat...

[Balin999]

I found this in the chapter "Treebeard" in TTT. It's the page before Treebeard sings his song of the Entwives:

Very fair she was still in my eyes, when I had last seen her, though little like the Entmaiden of old. For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their cheeks like red apples. Yet the eyes were still the eyes of our own people.

A rather good description, though it doesn't say that they didn't resemble the Ents. I guess I formed that picture only in my imagination.

[alatar]

I'd given up on the Entwives, and if Treebeard really can't remember what they specifically looked like...And think that I commented on this in the SbS, as Peter Jackson adds a little ent lore to The Two Towers, but come on. Was any other race so doomed to extinction? Not only can the Ents not remember the Entwives, but they also forget to go back and visit for a billion years or so. As far as we know, the entwives crossed with elves or humans and begat the Hobbits - not that I have any evidence, but am only adding 2+2 to get 22.

The Blue Wizards, like Saruman and Radagast, went native and so stayed to play in Middle Earth. With the little information known about the blue two (noted above) one is free to speculate. Possibly they are 'the great evil' of the Fourth Age?

Saruman's ring is also intriguing. We know that he made a ring, and also that he had access to a palantir, which presumably could see across both space and time. Did he watch the hands of Annatar and the elven smiths? Not that that is 100% helpful, as I can read (and rewrite) Bêthberry's posts but still cannot recreate her style of posting (and hopefully no one would ever want to emulate mine :eek: ). So even if Saruman could watch the making of even the One, he still lacked both the skill, the individual talents and the superhot furnace of Sammath Naur.

But he made something.

One then needs to look at Saruman's personality to discover what kind of Ring this being would desire. A ring that begat control? That read person's minds? That increased one's cunning and skill in making things? That hides one from other's scrutiny?

Another thought: Was the reason that Gandalf the White easily bested Saruman of Many Colors due to Saruman's Ring? Do rings, in their making, require a bit of the maker, subtracting from the maker's original power (i.e. Sauron)? Are rings both givers and takers, and one hopes to be lucky enough to stay on the plus side?

And here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=400887&postcount=16) are my thoughts on old Tom.

[Balin999]

Another thought: Was the reason that Gandalf the White easily bested Saruman of Many Colors due to Saruman's Ring? Do rings, in their making, require a bit of the maker, subtracting from the maker's original power (i.e. Sauron)? Are rings both givers and takers, and one hopes to be lucky enough to stay on the plus side?
As far as I can remember, Gandalf was sent back to more or less replace Saruman, since the original white wizard had failed. Gandalf himself says that in a way he IS Saruman.
Although I think that you're right with your theory of losing some of yourself to the ring you create. BUT, if you're wearing the ring, you can use its power, so that doesn't necessarily make you weaker.

[narfforc]

I have always seen the Rings as amplifiers, if the person wearing it was of a certain persuasion, he/she could make their inner most desires become greater through the use of a Ring of Power. If we apply this to Saruman, maybe what his Ring did was add power to the Power of his Voice. If we take Narya and add this statement:

Take this Ring, For thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old.....
(The Silmarillion, Of The Rings Of Power).

Then add this statement:

Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within.
(Unfinished Tales, The Istari).

I do not think that The Ring of Fire was created with the intention of burning thousands of orcs, I think the ring enhanced Gandalf's already inherent power to move people to great deeds and bring them back to hope.

[Rhod the Red]

The Blue Wizards dissapeared just North of Mordor on a mission. We don't know of their fate, Tolkien apparently decided to have a little mystery about them.

The One Ring was an amplifier, I agree.

[Formendacil]

The Blue Wizards dissapeared just North of Mordor on a mission. We don't know of their fate, Tolkien apparently decided to have a little mystery about them.

Where do you get that from- the "North of Mordor" bit? Everything that I've ever heard says that the Blue Wizards went East- in Rhûn, way east of Mordor, and we simply have no idea what happened to them. (Tolkien gives us a few "canonical" speculations, and fanfics abound, but you're correct that it is truly a mystery).

[Rhod the Red]

Rhun is North of Mordor, plus I have a copy of the Unfinished Tales.

[davem]

Rhun is North of Mordor, plus I have a copy of the Unfinished Tales.

Formy limps off, a broken & humiliated shadow of his former self...

[Formendacil]

Rhun is North of Mordor, plus I have a copy of the Unfinished Tales.

No, Rhûn is East. It means it, to begin with, and secondly, the name "Rhûn" runs down the East side of the map. The land north of Mordor is Rhovannion, and it runs right up to the Sea of Rhûn. Rhûn, or East, is all the lands East of there.

[davem]

No, Rhûn is East. It means it, to begin with, and secondly, the name "Rhûn" runs down the East side of the map. The land north of Mordor is Rhovannion, and it runs right up to the Sea of Rhûn. Rhûn, or East, is all the lands East of there.

There! It was all a feint on Formy's part - unbeknownst to Rhod Formy also owns Unfinished Tales!

HAs everyone read it????

[Rhod the Red]

Read what?

[Rhod the Red]

Rhun is North of Mordor. Or North-East if you want. No offence, but what next? Will you deny that Harad is South of Mordor?

[Formendacil]

Rhun is North of Mordor. Or North-East if you want. No offence, but what next? Will you deny that Harad is South of Mordor?

If you're trying to be insulting, you're doing a rather good job of it...

Of course Harad is South of Mordor. Harad also happens to mean South, so that is a rather logical conclusion.

Your problem, I think, is that you are looking at the placement of the word "Rhûn" and taking Rhûn to be right where that word is, whereas Rhûn (and I reiterate here, it means East) is the ENTIRE portion of Middle-Earth that lies to the East. Only the very western edge of Rhûn butts up with the North-West of Middle-Earth, which is the part shown on the map.

Rhûn, it is safe to assume, is as at least as large in itself as the entire portion of Middle-Earth with which we are familiar. This is made apparent by one line from Tolkien regarding the Dwarves, that the forefathers of the easternmost houses of the Dwarves were as far east, or more, from the Iron Hills as they were from Gundabad (I'm going off of memory here, so my mentioning of Gundabad-to-Iron Hills may not be the correct comparison, but it is a distance in that ballpark)- telling us that Rhûn (the East) must extend at least that far.

Rhûn lies East of ALL of North-Western Middle-Earth, from the Iron Hills, past the Sea of Rhûn (which gets its name from the fact that it borders those lands known in Gondor as Rhûn, or the East), and down past Mordor to Khand. South of Khand, I do not know if the lands to the East would be considered Harad, since they lie South, or Rhûn, since they lie East. Possibly, they would be Rhûn-Harad. In any event, the name "Rhûn" is placed where it is on the map, because that is the centre of the lands known as Rhûn.

[Rhod the Red]

Rhun is North of Mordor, period. Does it matter I negelected to refer it as being in the East? No.

Of course it's in the East, but it's North of Mordor. TLOTR has a map of ME and so does Unfinished Tales, so excuse me for my own confidence. You're being pedantic.

[narfforc]

I have over forty copies of LotR, and in every one the name Rhun appears to the east of The Sea of Rhun. In Fosters Guide to Middle-Earth under the heading Rhun it states thus:
Rhun (S:'East') Name given by the Dunedain of Gondor to the area east of THE SEA OF RHUN.

The East-Lands up to and including The Sea of Rhun were ruled by Gondor under Turambar, and these lands returned to the crown under The Reunited Kingdom. If you wish to be pedantic you could say that the northern end of the lands known as Rhun, would be Northeast of Mordor, in the same way many Londoners think people from Birmingham are Northerners or to the extreme, how some of our American cousins think Scotland is an area of England.

[goldfinger]

I have over forty copies of LotR, and in every one the name Rhun appears to the east of The Sea of Rhun. In Fosters Guide to Middle-Earth under the heading Rhun it states thus:
Rhun (S:'East') Name given by the Dunedain of Gondor to the area east of THE SEA OF RHUN.

The East-Lands up to and including The Sea of Rhun were ruled by Gondor under Turambar, and these lands returned to the crown under The Reunited Kingdom. If you wish to be pedantic you could say that the northern end of the lands known as Rhun, would be Northeast of Mordor, in the same way many Londoners think people from Birmingham are Northerners or to the extreme, how some of our American cousins think Scotland is an area of England.

Very true. Especially about Scotland and England lol. One time this girl in my church youth group, asked me to show her where Scotland was on the map! Very sad.

[Rhod the Red]

I notice how Americans usually refer to the UK as 'England', as if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland don't exist!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Middle-earth mysteries:

What was the cause of the Enchanted River in Mirkwood
being "enchanted."?

About how strong in numbers and where were the Rangers of the
Third Age situated (I believe Michael Martinez postulates
they're being based in the angle of the Mitheithel and
Bruinen). And did they mostly emigrate to west Arnor or
Gondor in the Fourth Age, and what problems might their
interactions with Gondorites cause?

What exactly was Radagast doing for hundreds of years, and
where was he based after he abandoned Rhosgobel?

As for the entwives, in Letters Tolkien tentatively suggests
they perished when their lands were overrun (I don't have the
book with me. I'll try to get the information later).

[tom bombariffic]

RADAGAST

As far as I'm aware, Radagast played very little part. The most conclusive account of his actions that I have read is in the Unfinished Tales:

Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts that dwelt in Middle-Earth, and forsook elves and men, and spent his days among the wild creatures.

This is judged by Tolkien to be a faluire of his mission, as ne notes that Gandalf is the only one who "remained faithful". However, Tolkien's notes indicate that Radagast was not one of the original three chosen Istari (Olorin/Gandalf, Curumo/Saruman and Alatar). Radagast was brought by Curumo at Yavanna's begging.

My personal opinion is that Radagast deviated from his task because of Saruman's extreme contempt for him ("Radagast the simple! Radagast the fool!"), thus making Radagast feel like a burden. But that is 100% speculation on my part.

This is certainly all I know of him, but I have not read all the histories of Middle Earth. I often wonder if Radgase, Alatar and Pallando ever returned to Valinor after the destruction of the ring - If anyone has any thoughts I'd be intregued to hear them. My instinct is that the blue wizards were gone forever and that radagast would have stayed because of his love of the animals of middle-earth - but Yavanna's evident trust in him may have led her to call him back. hoom hoom.

bombariffic

[Rhod the Red]

Well, before Saruman tricked him into sending Gandalf to Orthnac we can only surmise he did his duty as a wizard East of the Misty Mountains. Where was he based afterwards? Who knows, flying from nest to nest, as like as not.

[Boromir88]

bombarrific, very interesting ideas of Radagast. ;)

Now, I don't see any reason to doubt Tolkien when he says that Gandalf was the only wizard to stay faithful to his task. I think Radagast strayed from his purpose as the quote you provide shows. The reason the Istari were sent to Middle-earth were to unite the free peoples to fight and defeat Sauron. Of the Wizards, the only one for sure, and the only one we are told to do this is Gandalf.

Gandalf runs around Middle-earth dealing with every race, dwarves, a friend of elves, men, hobbits, Ents, and getting them all to try their own part in defeating Sauron.

While Radagast was a good-hearted wizard, and helped out Gandalf at times, as the quote shows he forsook his task and took to birds and nature.

You bring up Yavanna's trust in Radagast and wanting Radagast to also be one of the wizards. What's interesting is Yavanna is the Valier of nature, animals, and birds...etc This is just speculation also on my part, but perhaps Yavanna wanted Radagast sent as well, because he would take care of the birds and...etc on Middle-earth. And Radagast just fell in love with it so much that he strayed from his true purpose, which was to help the Free peoples of Middle-earth combat Sauron.

[tom bombariffic]

[EDIT: after writing this, I realised that it's already been discussed above, and wasn't one of the recent questions at all. Never mind, you can read it anyway.]

THE BLUE WIZARDS

we know absolutely nothing about them. Alatar was chosen by Orome to go as one of the three istari. Of course, as we know, Radagast was taken along by Saruman, and Pallando was taken along as a companion by Alatar.

Olorin, Curumo and Aiwendil were named Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast (amongst other names) by the people of middle earth, but Alatar and Pallando have no other names, being referred to simply as the "blue wizards", signifying that they didn't really play any part in the West of Middle-Earth, and just went straight to the west.

There are various theories, such as that they were corrputed by Sauron and ruled in the east much like saruman in the west, or that they were killed by Sauron. Either way, I don't believe there is any more information on them at all.

Christopher Tolkien does note in the Unfinished Tales the significance of the fact that his father linked both of the blue wizards to Orome, the Valar with the most knowledge of the East of Middle-Earth. Therefore, he suggests, they may have been destined to go straight to the east and stay there in the woods. Perhaps they fell in love with hunting in the east the way that Radagast fell in love with animals in the west.

all very speculative, isn't it?

bombariffic

[Rhod the Red]

"we know absolutely nothing about them" You sure about that? You just provided the little knowledge we have of them, most of which is from Unfinished Tales.

[narfforc]

The Blue Wizards have always fascinated me, I even attended the costume gala at the 50th anniversary in Birmingham as Pallando. I believe The Blue Wizards to be the most enticing loose thread Tolkien left behind. If we treat Tolkien as translator, as oppose to author, then he only says that HE does not know what success they had, he feared they failed, as did Saruman, though doubtless in different ways, he Suspected they were founders of secret cults that outlasted the fall of Sauron. They were most probably still around during The War of the Ring, taking Sarumans 'Staffs of The Five Wizards' statement into account, maybe Saruman even had knowledge of them. The fact that Tolkien believed them to be still alive into The Fourth Age makes me think it would have been a good storyline to expand into The New Shadow, the page is almost empty and the possibilities of writing a new story are enormous, I for myself have written this story, it is not for others, for there are purists that scream canon, and there are fans who would accept The Further Adventures of Frodo by Disney, so I keep it to myself. What I will say, is that The Blue Wizards do appear in my Lord of the Grins parody as Palindrome and Avatar, who go into the east and each become a powerful DOG-GOD.

P.S I have been trying to get Ted Naismith to do a Blue Wizard painting for years, well I can report success, he sent me a marvelous picture by email, of The Blue Wizards travelling East, keep an eye out for it, the scenery is amazing.

[tom bombariffic]

Sorry Rhod, perhaps as well as your duties with the Istari you could take up the position of Chairman of the Pedantic Organisation.

Obviously I should have said "we know very little about them". To say "absolutely nothing" and then go ahead and provide the few minor details was clearly dangerously misleading, and confusing. I can imagine the amount if discomfort it would cause people to read that there was no knowledge, take it as gospel, and then have their life view absolutely shattered. Pretty inhumane of me.

I can assure you I'll be more careful in the future.

bombariffic

[Rhod the Red]

Thanks, I hope you wern't offended.

[ninja91]

Whew... interesting (and slightly eerie) topic. I want to know about all the peoples of Arda, but I will never ever know. I feel kind of empty now. I am logging off so I can ponder this sad, sad thought. :(

[alatar]

Another questioned popped into my head, listening to the Flight to the Fords chapter. Frodo, at the end, is almost over into the wraith world. I think that the text states that the ringwraiths no longer needed their horses to see Frodo as they could see him. So two things came to mind. What if Elrond wasn't able to remove the splinter of the Morgul-knife that had lodged in Frodo's shoulder and Frodo subsequently succumbed to the wound?

I guess that Elrond and Gandalf could take the Ring from the disembodied spirit. Could they 'trap' the wraith Frodo to keep him from going to Mordor? How would they hold him?

And would this tragedy aid the enemy, beyond the killing of the Ringbearer? Could the wraiths use Frodo as a spy? And would he retain some 'claim' to the Ring?

[ninja91]

I also have a good question: What ever became of the Mouth of Sauron?

[alatar]

I also have a good question: What ever became of the Mouth of Sauron?
Complete speculation, but I think that, like Sauron after the overthrow of Morgoth, he would hang low a bit and then eventually start the next cycle. It might not be MoS, per se, but one of his offspring that might become the next great evil (though dluted like everything else). As precedent I cite Wulf, Freca's son.

[littlemanpoet]

Another questioned popped into my head, listening to the Flight to the Fords chapter. Frodo, at the end, is almost over into the wraith world. I think that the text states that the ringwraiths no longer needed their horses to see Frodo as they could see him. So two things came to mind. What if Elrond wasn't able to remove the splinter of the Morgul-knife that had lodged in Frodo's shoulder and Frodo subsequently succumbed to the wound?

I guess that Elrond and Gandalf could take the Ring from the disembodied spirit. Could they 'trap' the wraith Frodo to keep him from going to Mordor? How would they hold him?

And would this tragedy aid the enemy, beyond the killing of the Ringbearer? Could the wraiths use Frodo as a spy? And would he retain some 'claim' to the Ring?
I imagine that he would have been drawn to Mordor - - - without the Ring. The Fellowship would have been Eight? Merry seems the most likely after Frodo somehow. A certain gravitas in that Hobbit that always impressed me, compared to Pippin and Sam. Not that Sam wasn't serious; but there was something just a wee bit more - um - elvish (?) about Merry compared to P & S..... really flying off the top of my head here.... :rolleyes:

[Orome]

Complete speculation, but I think that, like Sauron after the overthrow of Morgoth, he would hang low a bit and then eventually start the next cycle. It might not be MoS, per se, but one of his offspring that might become the next great evil (though dluted like everything else). As precedent I cite Wulf, Freca's son.

Does the Mouth of Sauron have actual powers though? IIRC he is a black Numenorean, and as such would not have the innate power that Sauron had. Also, I would assume from this his power is tied to Sauron, so he would not be able to "lie low" like Sauron did. My personal thought is that after Sauron was overthrown, the "greater evils" i.e. sauron melkor came to an end, and the despotism and innate evilness of people came to the fore.

[narfforc]

The Mouth of Sauron entered into the service of the Dark Tower when it first arose again, I have always taken this to be possibly TA 2951, from this moment he grew in favour and learned great sorcery. Now if this is true, and we set his age at 20, then he would only be about the same age as Aragorn, not that old for someone of Numenorean descent. If we look at another scenario, one that places MoS at the earlier time of Saurons return from Numenor, then that makes him far older. In The Silmarillion we are told of Saurons return to Barad-dur thus:

And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Numenor.

It is possible that MoS was one of these.


If he had managed to somehow hold back his death, I think Sauron must have had something to do with it, for none can withold the gift of Iluvatar. The Numenoreans under their last Kings and at the height of their powers could not do this, if MoS had been lent power by Sauron, then at his downfall I think he would also fall. If he had somehow survived the fall of his master, I think this powerful sorcerer would/could have found some new power base. After the fall of Sauron, the Black Numenoreans merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor, seems like an ideal location for a New Shadow to arise. The mouth of Sauron would be a powerful character in The Fourth Age, the Istari have gone, and the other powers are enamoured of their environment.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Back to the original question....

Where do hobbits really come from?

[davem]

Back to the original question....

Where do hobbits really come from?

The Shire mostly, but there are some in Bree..... :p

[Child of the 7th Age]

Naughty Davem....

Now tell me where they were in the Second Age!

[davem]

Naughty Davem....

Now tell me where they were in the Second Age!

Hiding from lascivious Numenoreans.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Now tell me where they were in the Second Age!

Smoking halfling weed at the equivalent of Woodstock.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Where were the Hobbits in the Second Age? Breeding with Entwives lol!! :p

I always thought that if Saruman was given the proper time and resources he could become a third Dark Lord, perhaps an even greater one than Sauron. Let's see how they are related:

1. They are both Maiar of Aule.
2. They could successfully breed Orcs, Saruman could effectively breed even BIGGER ones!
3. They love going among Men and bewitching them.
4. They both had a Pilantir.
5. They liked making Rings.
6. I have forgotten the other comparisons I have made.

So, if Saruman hadn't made his abode right inbetween the horses of Rohan and the Entwife-spawn hobbits of Eriador ;) , maybe stuck himself somewhere near Mirkwood, could he have become yet another Dark Lord in the Fourth Age?

BTW, can anyone else think of more comparisons/differences between Sauron and Saruman?

[Saurreg]

I have always had an impression that Sauron was innately more powerful than Saruman hence his rise to prominence. It is thus in my opinion also that Saruman would never be as powerful as Sauron no matter the time nor the resources.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I have always had an impression that Sauron was innately more powerful than Saruman hence his rise to prominence.

Not necessarily, I think. Remember, Sauron was Morgoth's lackey/
lieutenant/whatever, while Saruman was in Aman as, presumably,
a significant maia- since he seems to have been considered the
head of the istari (granted, mostly a ceremonial title). And once he
decided to go agaionst the prohibition put on the istari of
imposing their will on others he may well have been Sauron's equal
or superior (especially a Sauron without the Ring).

As for a Middle-earth mystery---what was the nature of the
"magic" the woodelves used on the dwarves in The Hobbit
that seems to have paralyzed them and made them unconscious
(at least Thorin).

[Saurreg]

Not necessarily, I think. Remember, Sauron was Morgoth's lackey/lieutenant/whatever, while Saruman was in Aman as, presumably,a significant maia- since he seems to have been considered the
head of the istari (granted, mostly a ceremonial title). And once he
decided to go agaionst the prohibition put on the istari of
imposing their will on others he may well have been Sauron's equal
or superior (especially a Sauron without the Ring).

Hello Tour In Gondolin, nice to meet you again.

As I have stated, it is only my opinion that Sauron is mightier than Saruman and this is one passage from which that opinion was formed:

"And Curunír, 'Lâr, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he"
-From The Istari, Unfinished Tales

The dark spirit in question may refer literally to Sauron himself or perhaps figuratively the darkness that took hold of Saruman's heart. I chose to interprete it literally here.

It is true that Sauron was orignally a mäiar of Aulë who turned lieutenant of Morgoth. But Morgoth was very great in his powers and so I think that being Morgoth's direct subordinate was not proof of the lack of power but rather a statement of the disparity of power between the lord and vassal. And Sauron as we have read was very powerful himself.

Saruman was likewise a servant of higher powers. He was only considered the greatest of the five Mäiars that became the Istari, but that does not translate into comparison of his innard powers to the other supernatural beings such as Sauron, Melian or Arien.

[ninja91]

I agree with Saurreg. Saruman is one of the Maiar which is (as far as I know) not as powerful as the Valar, which is what Sauron was.

[narfforc]

Sorry, but Sauron was not one of the Valar, he was a Maia, or are you saying that Sauron was as powerful as a Vala, in which case I think you are also wrong.

[alatar]

Who is it that declares Saruman greatest of the Five Istari? Gandalf? By what measure does he know this? Was he, in this one case, being humble? Regardless, Gandalf the White states, I think, that he is about the most dangerous being in Middle Earth except if one were brought before the Nine-fingered one. If Gandalf says that he is less that Sauron, and as the White is greater than Saruman, then Saruman is lesser than Sauron.

Not that Saruman lacked spunk ;).

[MatthewM]

Sorry that this doesn't have relevance to the discussion, but does anybody else find the idea of The Blue Wizards starting magic cults cool? :)

[The Sixth Wizard]

I read somewhere since then that Morgoth devoted some of his power to Sauron, giving Sauron a fair share of Iluvatar's gifts, and Saruman never had this, so my opinion has changed on this topic I'm afraid...