Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88

04-17-2006, 07:57 AM

I have to agree with Balin here and that it was Eru who sent these "dreams." And this is Tolkien playing with the idea of fate.

To my mind, that points towards Gandalf as the purpetrator of the dream (rather than Elrond), as even though Frodo hadn't yet set off, Gandalf had certainly put into motion his forthcoming journey.~Sardy
But the only problem with that is as stated Elrond and Gandalf didn't send out invitations to come see the new gift in Rivendell. Rivendell had been a place where all races and people came to seek council from the great Elrond, and this was no different. It was by chance that all these people came together at the same time to deliver their news and seek advice from Elrond.

Boromir had gone to Rivendell to get answers to the dream he and Faramir had. He couldn't understand it, and so he went to Elrond to ask what it meant. Then also to ask for council on the growing threat of Sauron and Gondor is getting beat back. So, it just doesn't seem likely to me that Elrond (or Gandalf) would send this dream. As they didn't do any sort of advertising for the Council of Elrond, all those who came showed up by chance to receive council.

Mithalwen raised an interesting question, on whether Faramir was the one "destined" to go, and Boromir's insistance screwed up fate. Rather interesting, never considered that before, but I still have to disagree with her. :p

I think it was destined for Frodo to meet Faramir AND Boromir. Because though they be brothers they are two totally different characters and personalities. If anything the Fellowship needed was strength. I mean they had an old man, a short dwarf, a singing elf, and 4 hobbits, the only one with a bit of muscle was Aragorn, without Boromir's added strength the Fellowship could not have made it through Caradhras, Moria, or Sarn Gebir. Could Faramir have provided this? I don't know, but the Fellowship needed strength to get them through the hardships, and Boromir provides that.

Also, what's important to consider is let's say Faramir and Boromir switch, they swap. Faramir goes to Rivendell and joins the Fellowship, Boromir stays back and defends his city. How grave would this be? Frodo running into Boromir alone in the woods as opposed to Faramir. Boromir capturing Frodo with no old man or wannabee king saying "tisk tisk Boromir, no no." How grave would that be? Na, I think that both brothers were meant to encounter the ring and Frodo, as they both have to face the test, one succeeds the other stumbles.

Not only that but I think Boromir was destined to meet Aragorn as well. I mean the Steward's son meeting the claimed to be King of his realm? Had Boromir stayed back he would have resisted Aragorn's claim to the throne and as we've seen before with Pelendur the Stewards had quite a bit of influence and power in deciding whethey they can relinquish their throne or not. But, in going to Rivendell, Boromir goes through many months with Aragorn, starts out a bit rocky, but in the end Boromir accepts Aragorn and bestows upon him to "Save his people."

The most curious thing in the dream in my opinion is that Faramir sees it many (damn my memory) times and Boromir just once. The fact has always intrigued me. Maybe Faramir was more sensitive to the message? And did that actually hint that he should have been the one to go to Rivendell?
The only thing that I can think of is the fact that Faramir had a deeper love for lore than Boromir. Boromir's only care was of ancient battles and heroic feets, Faramir loved to study much more and was a better student ( :p ). This dream had really nothing to do with Boromir's interests. I mean it wasn't about war or heroes, he didn't care for this "lore business" and so he didn't have it as many times as Faramir who loved that kind of stuff. That's the only thing I can think of however, there may be, and probably is more to it.

Mithalwen

05-09-2008, 03:12 PM

HI-ing for and edit tomorrow - had a suden flash of insight :D

Eönwë

05-09-2008, 05:12 PM

Haha! I've figured it out. It's Ulmo who sent the dream.

My reason for saying this: Who did Ulmo give successful advice to? Tuor. Who were Tuor's descendants? The Numenoreans. Of who does it say "the blood of Numenor ran" truer? Faramir. But Boromir still had some Nmenorean blood, so he still got the dream.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel

05-10-2008, 01:24 PM

Some years ago, on a different board, I recall a long and heated debate about this very subject in which someone very stridently insisted that the dream HAD to come from Ulmo, because only Ulmo still cared enough about ME to remain involved in its affairs. This argument was supported by the person's contention that all prophetic dreams during LotR supposedly took place near water, so naturally, Ulmo would be the person who sent them. Some people accepted this as proof, others didn't. I didn't. Not that I don't believe that Ulmo COULD have sent it, but because I don't believe the other Valar were as totally uninvolved with ME as it would appear on a casual glance. In his battle with Shelob, Sam calls the name of Elbereth, is suddenly moved to call out to her for help in a language he doesn't even know, and in response, the light of the Phial blazes "like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light," blinding Shelob so that recoils and finally retreats, giving Sam a last shot at her legs. And then there are the Eagles, which conveniently appear to show up when Gandalf, a servant of Manwe, needs them most. I suspect the Valar haven't totally withdrawn their interest, or their help; they only do so in moments of utmost need, and then as subtly as possible.

Personally, I have long thought that it's possible the dream came from Gandalf -- who was the Counsellor of Irmo, the Master of Dreams. He knew about the Sword That Was Broken, and where it dwelt, the fact that Elrond was a master of Lore, in whose house crucial matters were often taken in council (as with the White Council); he already knew about Isildur's Bane, as well as the importance of the Halfling; moreover, he had already performed the test on the Ring and told Frodo to head for Rivendell before Faramir and Boromir had the dream, which first came on the night before Sauron attacked Osgiliath on June 20th (according to Boromir's report to the Council). If Gandalf -- who, as the Maia Olorin, was responsible for giving helpful, if anonymous, visions to the Eldar of earlier ages -- was not the one who sent the dream, it might well have been Irmo, from whom he probably learned much about such matters. I certainly don't believe either of them were responsible for all such things in LotR (Frodo's dream of Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc certainly didn't come from him, nor, I think, from Irmo), but the dream sent to Faramir and Boromir was so specific in what it revealed and so direct in to whom it went, I believe it was intended to help prompt the Gondorians to stop looking at the welfare and defense of Gondor alone, and start realizing that there was still a larger world outside her borders, in which important things were happening and of which they should be a part. No man is an island, as the saying goes, and Gondor under Denethor's rule was coming perilously close to becoming one, consoled by the thought (which Denethor promulgated) that if Gondor fell, so would the rest of ME. The dream, if one wants to think of it in political terms, was rather anti-isolationist, and attempting to unify the free peoples in the fight against Sauron was larger mission of the Istari.

Oh, my, that was quite a ramble. Blame it on new meds that make me so sleepy.... :)

Galadriel55

10-17-2010, 07:22 PM

I think that Galadriel sent the dream, because she can see the future, and she is able to talk through telepathy (talking with thoughts).

Legate of Amon Lanc

10-18-2010, 05:32 AM

For me, it is completely out of question that it would be any of the "interested characters" sending the dream. By "interested characters", I mean basically anybody in Middle-Earth, and even less those who are part of the story, which effectively dismisses all Gandalfs or Galadriels...

Firstly, it would really make no sense that nobody ever mentions it. I mean, Gandalf or Galadriel would surely say, certainly at some point, "Yes, it was me who actually sent the dream", or it would be written in some of Tolkien's notes (I can imagine all these stories in UT with the behind-the-scenes stuff telling something about this). Gandalf himself was sitting at the Council when the question about the dream was brought forth. And (and that is the second point), wouldn't it be totally silly if Gandalf at that point had to say "um, yes, I actually know that dream, I have sent it myself?" Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor. Gandalf would be more logical, as Faramir was his friend, but again, why then did also Boromir get the dream once? Perhaps only if Gandalf once "called the wrong number". In any case, once again, there is no indication that Gandalf knew anything about the subject before Boromir brought it up.

I think it could not have been anybody in Middle-Earth, because first you need to have a person who knows a) Faramir, b) Boromir, c) Isildur's Bane, d) Halflings, e) Sword that was broken, f) where it is. There really are not too many people like this. And most importantly, I don't like the idea because it would be outright manipulation, if somebody who is sort of personally involved in the matter would send a dream like this to Faramir (resp. Boromir).

No, in my opinion, it has to come from "outside the Middle-Earth": and at this point, it ceases to interest me, actually. "Something else at work" is always and has always been the best description for me. If somebody really pushed me, I would say either "the Valar" (as a whole), or "Eru" (which is sort of logical, but somehow I wonder if it is not unnecessarily high). The idea about Ulmo mentioned above is not relevant in my opinion, not anymore in Third Age; Ulmo was the last of the Valar to communicate with the exiles in First Age, but since then, many many things have changed and Valinor is outside the Circles of the World for good, and already by the end of FA Ulmo's power in the waters of Middle-Earth was waning. This was certainly a thing of importance, one of the few instances where there was "something else at work" in the fate of Middle-Earth, something from the outside, and in that case I believe it would have to be either just Eru himself or all of the Valar acting here together - just like with sending the Istari. So that is my opinion.

Nerwen

10-18-2010, 10:07 AM

And most importantly, I don't like the idea because it would be outright manipulation, if somebody who is sort of personally involved in the matter would send a dream like this to Faramir (resp. Boromir).

Note that everyone in the story just seems to assume the dream has been sent by a higher power of some kind– i.e. not any of the actual characters. It's surely on that basis that Boromir undertakes his journey. So if it were in reality, say, Gandalf, he'd have been in effect impersonating a Vala/the Valar/Eru. Which I don't think was in his job description.

skip spence

10-18-2010, 10:56 AM

The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?

What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

Legate of Amon Lanc

10-18-2010, 11:39 AM

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance:
Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave...
It seems obvious that the recurring dream of this nature, obviously prophetic, seemed to be really important to the descendants of Númenoreans still, and especially in this time of crisis. If it was only a matter of asking about some totally random and unimportant thing, they could have sent some random bunch of soldiers and messengers, and not one of the Steward's sons...

Inziladun

10-18-2010, 11:52 AM

The prophetic dream I can accept as something that just happens. I don't know who sent it and would rather not speculate. Well okay, maybe Ulmo?

My money would be on Eru, as the ultimate "driver" of the story, and also, as others have said, the "fate" personified that brought the members of the Council of Elrond together at that particular moment in time.

What I find most curious in this whole affair is why Boromir chose to undertake the journey in the first place. To me it somehow doesn't seem in character that Boromir would leave Minas Tirith to undertake a long and perilous journey in the middle of a war where he is badly needed at home on the barricades. And all because of a dream and with the purpose to ask for counsel from the Elves, if my memory serves me right. He had no idea of the nature of Isildur's Bane before heading out, did he?

So, why not let his brother go and stay at home where Sauron is likely to make an assault at any time?

From Boromir and Faramir's words, it looks to me as if Faramir was the one who wanted to go, and Boromir did it himself as a "big brother" gesture.

Boromir:
Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. The Council of Elrond

Faramir:
Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed. The Window On the West

x/d with Legate

Bêthberry

10-18-2010, 12:01 PM

But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance

Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Earnur was a man like his father in valour but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms.

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

Inziladun

10-18-2010, 12:14 PM

Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:

'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men.' Appendix A

Bêthberry

10-18-2010, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bêthberry
Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:

'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men.'

Appendix A

True enough that's in the Appendix, where also is Tolkien's comparison of Boromir with Earnur, but I had restricted the context to The Council of Elrond, where there is the most extensive depiction of Boromir's character, in action as it were, in conversation with Elrond and Aragorn. His words don't inspire one with his love for his brother, but with his arrogant belief in his supremacy for the task. As you have quoted above (when I cross posted with you):

Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.

And Faramir's comment suggests a certain degree of willfulness:

Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.

And as the passage in Appendix A says, in continuation from what you quote:

It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.

That last line is a powerful condemnation of the scorn and military prowess which determine Boromir's mindset. Had his love for his brother granted him more respect for Faramir's style and manner, perhaps he wouldn't have insisted so strongly that he alone was worthy of the task. But he was found wanting, as someone motivated greatly by love in LotR would, I think, not be.

skip spence

10-18-2010, 01:54 PM

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

Legate of Amon Lanc

10-18-2010, 02:13 PM

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.
I think it was both. It is equally lacking to say that it was only Boromir's pride that made him take the task, as it is to say that it was out of pure love: we know it was not. But he had love for his brother, that is a fact.

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

Well, see above. By the Númenoreans, it was still important to heed prophecies and such stuff, certainly for the educated people like Denethor. I don't think Boromir would be like "hey dad, what the heck is this stupid intellectual talk?" but he would be like "uh... I don't know anything about such stuff, but... perhaps it really is important if you say so. In such case, I suggest I go!"

Pitchwife

10-18-2010, 02:20 PM

I'm with Legate and Nerwen here as for the matter of the sender of the dream being some "higher power" rather than, say, Gandalf or Galadriel, and I'm also not sure we need to bother Eru himself to explain it - the Valar, I think, weren't quite so detached from the War of the Ring as it probably seemed to those in Middle-earth, they merely acted with more discretion than in former ages, confining themselves to giving a 'minimally invasive' nudge in the right direction to things here and there (for another example see e.g. this thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15568)).

Why Boromir and not Faramir? I suppose the final decision would have been Denethor's; and I think skip has a good point here:
Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...
Exactly; and therefore, if it was absolutely unavoidable that one of the Steward's sons had to go on that errand, Denethor would have trusted Boromir more to represent Gondor's best interests (as he saw them!) in dealing with those tricky wizards and halfelves than Faramir, who was too much of a 'wizard's pupil' already for his father's taste.

Boromir88

10-18-2010, 04:05 PM

Exactly; and therefore, if it was absolutely unavoidable that one of the Steward's sons had to go on that errand, Denethor would have trusted Boromir more to represent Gondor's best interests (as he saw them!) in dealing with those tricky wizards and halfelves than Faramir, who was too much of a 'wizard's pupil' already for his father's taste.

Well, Denethor, in truth was highly reluctant to let Boromir go, and only gave in when Boromir would not be "stayed."

"Loth was my father to give me leave..."~The Council of Elrond

If you think about it, the eastern side of Osgiliath had just been taken by Sauron. Boromir was the "Captain-General" of Gondor, and with Sauron already making the first strike, I doubt Denethor would have been thrilled with the idea of sending the Commander of his army to seek answers to some trippy riddle. At least, at the time when he was approached by Boromir and Faramir, he doesn't appear to know anything about the riddle. (It took Faramir a while to figure out that Isildur's Bane wasn't referring to the orc-arrow that slew him). So, I've never had the same interpretation of the "scene" as Jackson did in the movies, where Denethor pulls Boro aside to make him as some kind of agent for Gondor. I think Boromir was just so annoying and wouldn't shut up, Denethor was more like...ARG ALRIGHT ALRIGHT GO! :p When Faramir doesn't bite his tongue and reminds Denethor it was he who gave Boromir leave:

"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,"...~The Siege of Gondor

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

I've been trying to unravel Boromir's complicated character ever since I read the story. Granted, it turns out to more a gushy man-crush for Sean Bean's performance, which I think in many ways "softens" the book Boromir. The movies concentrated on the best part of the character, the troubled and conflicted man who "fell," but in the end redeemed himself. In the forefront of the books, you see his arrogance and at times very childish, immature, behavior. Tolkien in one letter calls him the "bossy brother" of Faramir, and that could be a hangover from the earlier drafts where Boromir becomes Aragorn's rival in Minas Tirith.

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness:
"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan

...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whome Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy knumbskull. :p

Galadriel55

10-18-2010, 07:04 PM

Returning to the topic, though, who sent the dream and why Boro went instead of his brother.
When the dream was brought to the counsil of Gondor, Denethor agreed to send one of his sons - not servants - to find out what's going on. He didn't sneer at Faramir's elvishness, or whatever it's called, when Boro said that he dreamt it too. This shows that Denethor accepted the dream to be true. It is very hard to make Denethor head any advise but his own, so this ust be one of the rare cases when he listened to someone else.
Once Denny accepted the dream, Boro wanted to go himself, because for the reasons above he understood it to be a serious matter. It does seem more like Boro to remain and fight and send Faramir, but I think it was his pride and his mistakened judgement that Gondor is the best and he's the best in Gondor that pushed him to take the task that he didn't much care for.
Faramir usually gave in to Boro, and didn't try to compete against him. Even if he said soething against Boro's decision, it was in his nature to just accept Boro as the best.
The dream was sent by an anonymus person, and probably fate. But I think that in LotR fate hardy does anything by accident. I think that this time fate (in the face of Eru, who planned out all the events of the world up to the very end) chose Galadriel to act through. Galadriel has her "magical" mirror, through which she can see the future. She also has a gift of telepathy, which means that can speak using just her thought, not her actual voice. I think that Fate, or Eru made her want to find out a little bit about the future. Galadriel decided that she is the one who is destined to push one of Denethor's sons to come to Rivendell, so she sent the dream and spoke in it. She is wise enough not to blurt out everything, which would turn Denny against the mission of destroying the Ring, because he would want the Ring hinself. Instead, she sort of intrigued Boro and Farry, so that one of them would carry out the fate...
Maybe fate chose Boro because he would need to go through the stage of a desparate desire for the Ring anyways, and it does less damage to the mission, to Gondor, and to many other people when Boro goes through it near Rauros. Imagie what would have happened if Farry went instead:
1) There would be 2 Aragorns in the Fellowship. Faramir is very much like Aragorn, except that he is more earthly; he's closer to regular people. The Fellowship is formed in such a way that no 2 members are too much alike, even Merry and Pippin. Farry would disbalnce the structure.
2)Faramir would probably help Frodo AT LEAST up to the Ithilien. That would prevent Frodo from meeting Gollum at the right time, and he's the one who actually destroys the Ring, even if accidentally. Moreover, this means that Frodo would have met Boromir near Henneth Annun, and his view of Frodo's story would be much different from Farry's. If Farry would have been with Frodo when they would've met Boro, it would turn out worse, because of their relationship. Farry would tell Boro way more than Frodo would, and he would follow Boro's instructions, like he normally does.

Wow! What a speech! I always had trouble with getting to the point quickly! Sorry everyone who had to read through this babbling.

Nerwen

10-18-2010, 07:39 PM

The dream was sent by an anonymus person, and probably fate. But I think that in LotR fate hardy does anything by accident. I think that this time fate (in the face of Eru, who planned out all the events of the world up to the very end) chose Galadriel to act through. Galadriel has her "magical" mirror, through which she can see the future. She also has a gift of telepathy, which means that can speak using just her thought, not her actual voice. I think that Fate, or Eru made her want to find out a little bit about the future. Galadriel decided that she is the one who is destined to push one of Denethor's sons to come to Rivendell, so she sent the dream and spoke in it. She is wise enough not to blurt out everything, which would turn Denny against the mission of destroying the Ring, because he would want the Ring hinself.
Sorry, but this is just another way of saying, "Galadriel sent it". Which I think is most unlikely, for reasons already stated.

Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor.

And also, if the dream had been sent by one of the characters, I believe there'd be some hint of this somewhere, and there isn't.

Tuor in Gondolin

10-18-2010, 09:18 PM

Orogonally posted by Galadriel55
Maybe fate chose Boro because he would need to go through the stage of a desparate desire for the Ring anyways, and it does less damage to the mission, to Gondor, and to many other people when Boro goes through it near Rauros. Imagie what would have happened if Farry went instead:
...2)Faramir would probably help Frodo AT LEAST up to the Ithilien. That would prevent Frodo from meeting Gollum at the right time, and he's the one who actually destroys the Ring, even if accidentally. Moreover, this means that Frodo would have met Boromir near Henneth Annun, and his view of Frodo's story would be much different from Farry's. If Farry would have been with Frodo when they would've met Boro, it would turn out worse, because of their relationship. Farry would tell Boro way more than Frodo would, and he would follow Boro's instructions, like he normally does.

I see the situation differently here. I think "fate" (probably Eru, possibly through Manwe) preferred Faramir but sent the message to Boromir as a back up to commit Boromir to the future Fellowship if he insisted [allowing for free will to be effective] on being the one seeking Imladris---I think as much for vainglory as the reasons he gave the Council.

With Faramir in the Fellowship, and not unhappy to defer to Aragorn, he would have agreed (knowing the lay of the land best) to accompany Frodo and Sam all the way, or at least enough to get the hobbits past Boromir.

With a little rewriting Tollers could still have Pippin and Merry be captured and the Three Walkers pursue the orcs while Aragorn sntrusted aiding Frodo and Sam to Faramir.
This also sets up an interesting dynamic of Frodo-Sam-Faramir-Gollum in Mordor, including how Faramir might be tempted by prolonged exposure to the Ring.

Bêthberry

10-19-2010, 03:50 PM

I think it was both. It is equally lacking to say that it was only Boromir's pride that made him take the task, as it is to say that it was out of pure love: we know it was not. But he had love for his brother, that is a fact.

I've been trying to unravel Boromir's complicated character ever since I read the story. Granted, it turns out to more a gushy man-crush for Sean Bean's performance, which I think in many ways "softens" the book Boromir. The movies concentrated on the best part of the character, the troubled and conflicted man who "fell," but in the end redeemed himself. In the forefront of the books, you see his arrogance and at times very childish, immature, behavior. Tolkien in one letter calls him the "bossy brother" of Faramir, and that could be a hangover from the earlier drafts where Boromir becomes Aragorn's rival in Minas Tirith.

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness:

"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan

...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whome Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy knumbskull.

Both of these comments are in reply to my original comment,

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

so I have some explaining to do. :D ;) And I must beg your indulgence for a long reply that probably isn't long enough. But it’s great to see a thread in Books taking off the way this one did (even if I did have to shock a little to get it going).

I limited my comments to the Council of Elrond because I thought there Boromir’s character flaws—those which made him most susceptible to the Ring—were most revealed and those were the traits which likely most influenced him to insist he undertake the journey to Imladris. We never see the scenes where he is sent to find the meaning of the dream’s riddle; that is simply reported, by himself at the CoE and by Faramir much later in WotW.

Boromir comes to the CoE with all the assumed authority and self-assuredness of those who feel themselves entitled. He makes judgments based on appearance, with both Bilbo and Aragorn (dressed in the poor clothes of Strider). He crosses words with Aragorn but it is Aragorn who comes out of the repartee with dignity, even though Boromir’s more archaic language shows him to be standing on his dignity fairly often. And Boromir is the one who is loathe to destroy the Ring, arguing that the Ring could be used for good purpose.

The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit; but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory!

Any reader who has accepted Gandalf’s explanation to Frodo about the Ring must surely wonder at that. And for that matter, there is Tolkien’s explanation, in the Foreword to the Second Edition, of how the Ring would relate to World War II, which also can be a gloss upon Boromir’s misplaced self confidence. And then again, when the Nine embark upon their journey, Boromir is reprimanded by Elrond for blowing his horn inappropriately.

It is not until Caradhras that we see any kindness in Boromir. And it is that very kindness which he uses to attempt to persuade Frodo into giving him the Ring. Do we ever see him display love? In his actions, he is mostly what Tom Shippey calls “mere furious dauntlessness” and, as Shippey says, it is Boromir who can most easily be imagined as a Ringwraith.

Most of the good we hear of Boromir comes after his death, like the claims of Eomer and Pippin which our Boro88 has quoted, so it is retold rather than displayed by the character in action. In fact, his positive attributes become the stuff of the archaic and heroic style which Tolkien moves into as LotR progresses. Shippey argues that the hobbits lead the reader into LotR. Something similar could be said of Boromir, except that by example he leads them away from the Ring towards right action. Thus he becomes incorporated into the heroic in the same way that ancient stories reflected earlier stories incompletely.

So Boromir’s good aspects belong to a particular place in Tolkien’s work. And here my argument is very dependent upon Shippey’s discussion of Tolkien’s clash of styles, the ‘higher criticism’, and in particular of the word ‘lays’ (as in Macaulay’s The Lays of Ancient Rome) in The Road to Middle-earth and Author of the Century (although Shippey isn’t responsible for my use of it to discuss Boromir).

It became widely believed that behind the extensive epics of Homer, and Virgil, and the Histories of Livy, and Beowulf, and even the accounts of the Old Testament, there must have been early pre-literate traditions which were used by the later writers—traditions probably expressed in short poems composed at or near the time of the events the commemorated. . . . people learned to read histories and historical poems with a kind of double vision, to see both the event being described and the context in which it was described. . . . [Tolkien] wished above all to create the sense of age, of antiquity with yet greater antiquity behind it.

Boromir’s positive traits do not belong in the modern novelistic passages but in those which echo the old epics, the language of antiquity. Boromir the character moves into the realm of legend or of the timelessness of myth. This is most clearly seen in the passages from the Appendices which discuss the love Boromir has for Faramir in a heroic style, as if the Appendices provided strata of stories to disentangle. It is almost as if the Appendices are texts other than that of LotR, part of the lore and annals which are incomplete. So in LotR there is the Event and there is the Record, and reading LotR involves developing a double vision.

To imagine how Boromir came to be chosen over Faramir to solve the riddle of the dreams, to me, involves seeing this double vision and taking the one which most fully explains his psychology. Those who, possibly, are more in tune with the sense of a greater antiquity behind the story will prefer the Boromir of legend. But I think it isn’t quite so clear that a fact in the Appendices is always of the same canonical weight, as it were, with the story proper.

Fordim Hedgethistle

10-19-2010, 04:33 PM

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

So what are they 'seeing' if it's not being sent? Just the truth, plain and simple. The Ring had been found and was headed one way or another to Rivendell as were a bunch of other people; so it was "accident" (that is, fate) that it was going to happen, but fate didn't send the dream. But fate did write the fact of this gathering into the fabric of reality and for those with the ability to read that fabric it was there waiting for them to be dreamed.

As to why Boromir went instead of Faramir, it's because he was an arrogant man who felt that nobody but him was worthy of the task. Bb is (once again) right: he's a "good man" by the heroic code he lives by and which others value; which is not to say that he's a "bad man" by other estimations, just flawed.

Kitanna

10-19-2010, 05:38 PM

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

I'd always assumed it was fate that sent the dream, but never did I think of it in terms of a Numenorean birthright, but it would make sense. That would certainly explain why Faramir received the dream more often than Boromir. It was stated he showed more of the ancient line than his brother (or at least I believe this was stated).

No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.

Inziladun

10-19-2010, 09:01 PM

No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.

I've always thought Frodo's dream of the Havens and seeing Valinor to have been somehow caused by Bombadil or Goldberry, since it was in their house that Frodo had that dream.

As for Boromir and Faramir's dream being "self-generated", I have to wonder why Men of Gondor would have as part of their dreams "Halflings", which were hardly a prominent element in the Gondorian pysche.

Morwen

10-19-2010, 09:07 PM

There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.

Legate of Amon Lanc

10-20-2010, 02:34 AM

I limited my comments to the Council of Elrond because I thought there Boromir’s character flaws—those which made him most susceptible to the Ring—were most revealed and those were the traits which likely most influenced him to insist he undertake the journey to Imladris. We never see the scenes where he is sent to find the meaning of the dream’s riddle; that is simply reported, by himself at the CoE and by Faramir much later in WotW.

Boromir comes to the CoE with all the assumed authority and self-assuredness of those who feel themselves entitled. He makes judgments based on appearance, with both Bilbo and Aragorn (dressed in the poor clothes of Strider). He crosses words with Aragorn but it is Aragorn who comes out of the repartee with dignity, even though Boromir’s more archaic language shows him to be standing on his dignity fairly often. And Boromir is the one who is loathe to destroy the Ring, arguing that the Ring could be used for good purpose.

Any reader who has accepted Gandalf’s explanation to Frodo about the Ring must surely wonder at that. And for that matter, there is Tolkien’s explanation, in the Foreword to the Second Edition, of how the Ring would relate to World War II, which also can be a gloss upon Boromir’s misplaced self confidence. And then again, when the Nine embark upon their journey, Boromir is reprimanded by Elrond for blowing his horn inappropriately.

It is not until Caradhras that we see any kindness in Boromir. And it is that very kindness which he uses to attempt to persuade Frodo into giving him the Ring. Do we ever see him display love? In his actions, he is mostly what Tom Shippey calls “mere furious dauntlessness” and, as Shippey says, it is Boromir who can most easily be imagined as a Ringwraith.
(...)
To imagine how Boromir came to be chosen over Faramir to solve the riddle of the dreams, to me, involves seeing this double vision and taking the one which most fully explains his psychology. Those who, possibly, are more in tune with the sense of a greater antiquity behind the story will prefer the Boromir of legend. But I think it isn’t quite so clear that a fact in the Appendices is always of the same canonical weight, as it were, with the story proper.

I, in the name of all, would skip any discussion about "canon". Somebody could then come with early HoME drafts of Boromir or whatnot. Although I see what you mean. But for me, Boromir = all parts we know about Boromir's character put together, and that is from every source. And I am not looking at Boromir from the "outside" perspective - like what kind of character Tolkien wrote him to be - but from the "inside" perspective, as a really-existing person, so to say. And from that pov, see what I said in my short reply-post above. Boromir had these sort of prideful, arrogant etc. parts of his character, and then there was his love to this brother and the better parts of his character. I have always seen it the way that Boromir was raised in Gondor by his father who was rather blind in many matters himself, but he even lacked his father's keen foresight (example: I would imagine Denethor would not underestimate Aragorn just because he had worn clothes, he will probably, in contrary to Boromir, notice that there is more to him than on first sight, yet still, just like Boromir, he would initially have sort of contempt about him). Boromir was raised in his world of Gondor, where most men seem to have this idea of "we are the center of the world and we are the only ones saving it!". He just never had encountered anything else, and so at the Council he first acts like this, and eventually, only slowly by his stay with the Fellowship, I think he begins to see more and becomes sort of more perceptive. That's just in response to saying how Boromir is totally full of himself at the Council and gets sometimes slightly better during the journey - I guess it makes sense, if you are with the people who behave humble or seem unimportant to you and at the same time you see their qualities, you sort of learn to be humble yourself.

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

I disagree about the dream acting on "self-basis". If it was just a dream vision, like Faramir walking in the field, suddenly seeing a Hobbit, a sword, a valley with Elves in it, a Ring, and so on; simply a set of cryptic visual clues, then whatever. But there is the voice, and the voice speaks to Faramir. You have a dialogue, effectively (or not a dialogue, since Faramir himself does not reply, but you have two subjects there, the "message-sender" and the receiver).

And that is just to add to what Morwen said, which I think is really good point also:

There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel

10-20-2010, 07:34 AM

There are, to me, certain aspects of that dream which point to its source in the Higher Powers. Specifically, the foreknowledge that:

The Ring would be in Rivendell.

Counsels would be taken (possibly indicating a council would be held).

The Ring would be shown.

A halfling would step forth in significant way.

Gandalf never demonstrated any such degree of prophecy. Moreover, if he had known, I don't think he would have used — nor would he have been allowed to use — his abilities in such a way. This smacks much more of the Valar, and their behind the scenes activities, and Pronouncements of Doom, IMHO. They are much more the master chess players than anyone in Middle-earth, and the convenient timing of the dream, as well as the fact that it came to both brothers, thus helping ensure that one of them would go to Rivendell, seems to me a thing that they would do. Though I rather suspect they might've preferred Faramir as their messenger.

Formendacil

10-20-2010, 09:18 AM

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness

"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan

...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whom Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy numbskull. :p

I feel like addressing this "Boromir as bossy" topic in light of these two quotes, simply because I feel like they are two very different sorts of witness, and need to be distinguished on that basis. In and of itself, I don't think that Éomer's testimony disproves "bossiness" on Boromir's part at all. Indeed, I think it would prove it more than it would disprove it. Éomer admits, himself, that Boromir came little to the Mark, so most of what he is saying is hearsay (though, I admit, Éomer would be in more of a position than most to have met Boromir if he were to come to Rohan)--and it is a reputation specifically based on his actions at war--on the eastern marches.

"Bossiness" in a peer-like situation (such as Rivendell and the Fellowship can be considered--even though they aren't really peers in a proper sense, the only chain of command is "Gandalf and Elrond have commissioned us") or in personal relationships would translate well to "capable commander"--after all, you want a leader of men to be able to lead them. When Éomer says that Boromir was expected to become a great captain of his people, we should note that he says captain, a martial term. He is not, as Denethor might be, expected to become a great "steward" or "leader" or "statesman." This narrower expectation of "captain" reflects the fact that Boromir's reputation for greatness is limited solely to the battlefield--in other words, to one place where bossiness can most easily masquerade as something noble.

All of that being said, however, Éomer's testimony does not prove that Boromir was, in fact, bossy--merely, that it does not necessarily contradict any account of Boromir as bossy. As the son of the Steward and Captain-General of Gondor, Boromir could easily be camouflaged, since he would lack any real social peers and would be expected to display "bossy" traits.

The testimony of Pippin is, in my opinion, of greater weight, since it is a first-hand account, rather than hearsay. Furthermore, it is the account of someone who has no prior history with the military needs and conditions that would see military prowess as supremely praiseworthy.

I think it is also hugely important to note that, although Pippin "liked him from the first," we don't find this out until Pippin is in Gondor. We never see the scene in Rivendell where Pippin gets to see Boromir's "lordly and kindly" manners in actions. Insofar as The Lord of the Rings is the account by Frodo, it will presumably share his biases. Whether Frodo disliked Boromir from the Council of Elrond on, and then simply avoided him such that he had nothing to put in his account thereafter save the few occasions where Boromir impacted on the action of the whole Fellowship, or whether Frodo's final encounter with Boromir coloured his whole retelling of all that came before... who knows? I incline to the former option, out of a preference for Frodo's general objectivity as a recounter of events, and because Boromir was probably a bit of a fish out of water, being accustomed to being at the top of the social food chain, and finding himself a lowly mortal among immortals and less lowly mortals, at the Council.

What's more, it's easier to see how Pippin, as the young cousin with three older sisters, always tagging along after Merry and Frodo, would respond well to "lordliness" on Boromir's part, and see well-intentioned (if over-bearing) kindliness behind it. Pippin also does not attend the Council, so he would not have the baggage of those tensions to bias him against the one person on the council who voices the outsider's obvious first opinion.

In any case, I think it is significant that we only get this opinion of Pippin's AFTER the Fellowship has broken, once the narrator has to follow the minds and thoughts of the other Hobbits--and non-Hobbits. It highlights the fact that, although the narrator is third-person and not obviously connected with Frodo, the narrator is chiefly following Frodo's story, and thus Frodo's perspective may dominate. It is only when Frodo's perspective cannot be followed, that we see that Frodo's perspective may not have been the only one regarding Boromir.

What's more, now that I think about it, I think we can also see a different perspective already in Chapter I of The Two Towers, when Boromir is laid to rest. I've heard people comment before, if I remember correctly, that as Boromir's heroic end seems tacked on, or out of character, or something. It is possible, I think, that this seeming "out of characterness" can relate to perspective. With Frodo gone and the other Hobbits captured, the perspective is now, if anyone's, Aragorn's (though it may be Legolas and Gimli who are most likely to relay it to Frodo later), and I think he would have been far easier on Boromir than Frodo. Aragorn, as another Man, better understands the temptations the Ring posed for Boromir (though he is better able to resist it than Boromir), and also understands--alone among the Fellowship--what Gondor means to Boromir, and why a military solution would seem particularly compelling.

Boromir88

10-20-2010, 01:22 PM

Hehe, BB and Form, if you think you're lengthy, I must really be far removed from my "novels" in defense of Boromir's character. I hope you know you've awoken a long slumbering bear. :p

First then to Bethberry's excellent perspective on the two different writing styles and the difference in Boromir as we see him in the action, and the "reflections" of his character after death. It's even seen in obituaries, where we highlight sort of the "best" qualities of the person's life, and not any mistakes the person may have made in life. We have this concept, out of respect for the dead, we should not mock the dead. And so this I think does well to explain the highlights of Boromir's better qualities, in the various reflections of him after death.

Even in Frodo's talk with Faramir, Faramir can tell (and all the readers too) that Frodo was tempering his true feelings of Boromir. We know they did not part on friendly terms, but I think Frodo is making a conscious effort (either for his own safety or for Faramir's sake) not to completely trash Boromir in front of his own brother.

However, I think what's important to note here is that Faramir's love for Boromir is not a blind love. We see that Faramir has a very accurate and to the point assessment of his brother's character. He doesn't have this blind, oogling, admiration for his great big-brother, and it's not a "he's my brother, I'm obligated to love him" kind of love.

'I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it.'~The Window on the West

I mean you could hardly guess that type of assessment coming from Boromir's brother. It's more scathing about Boromir, than anything Frodo said to Faramir.

'Ah, than it is as I thought: your trouble was with Boromir alone. He wished this thing brought to Minas Tirith. Alas! It is a crooked fate that seals your lips who saw him last, and holds from me what which I long to know: what was his in his heart and thought in his latest hours. Whether he erred or no, of this I am sure: he died well, acheiving some good thing. His face was more beautiful even in life.'~ibid

Which I think puts a different read on the Appendix quote about the "great love" which existed between the two brothers. Sadly, we only see what Faramir thought of Boromir, and not vice versa. However, I don't think you choose the words "great love" without it being something true and sincere. Faramir's love for his brother is not blind, that in and of itself is I think revealing to Boromir's entire character, since Faramir knows his brother had flaws. But in the end, great love still existed between the two, so...why?

But leaving Boromir "after death" aside for now, let's look at him from the Council to his death.

Pride is, for me, this ying and yang deadly sin. You have ofermod, excessive pride, and arrogance which Boromir definitely displays a lot of...and I think we can agree that Boromir at the Council and his attempt to take the Ring, are Boromir at his worst. Also, it frighteningly represents the type of person Boromir is capable of becoming. Gandalf just let the entire Council informed of Saruman's treachery and Boromir still flat out says "aye, Saruman's a traitor, but isn't the dude kind of right?"

'It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory.'~The Breaking of the Fellowship

I bold ruthless, because I don't know about you, but I don't consider that such a "good" quality, or anything at all to brag about. Yet, in Boromir's madness, he seems to think so. These represent the worst of Boromir, because I think it shows given Boromir's character, who he is capable of becoming, which even I admit...isn't such a good looking man.

However, let's not look at who Boromir was capable of becoming, but instead look at who he did become.

I look at the Council Boromir, and see more childish ignorance than the evil deadly Pride. I say that, because just look at his attitudes to Lorien and Moria, and his whining when things don't go his way. I mean honestly, it's like a little kid stomping his feet, and then pouting about not having any friends and no one listening to him.

But seriously now, of course Boromir's going to come to the Council toting on about Gondor and being Gondor-centric. At this time, what, he's 41-42? By the story's standards, that's still pretty young, and all his life he was brought up in Gondor, which is now in war-time (apparently been to Rohan a few times too). Point being though, as the next-in-line Steward, during these troubling times, he has the tremendous expectations to make sure there even is a Gondor there for Aragorn. He's already had war thrust upon him, with Sauron's attack on Osgiliath, and with a father who makes clear he has no qualms with "spending the lives of his sons." (Siege of Gondor), I think it's easy to see the Gondor-centric attitude. Especially at a Council, which stock full of old, immortal, wise uppity know-it-alls. All talk and no action. (I'm being purposefully difficult here, to at least try and implant the Council from Boromir's perspective. As opposed to Frodo's, who of course decided to comment on Boromir's "mocking" laugh towards Bilbo, and from that point on had a grudge. :p)

However, let's see the growth that takes place in Boromir from the Council to his death. In his deathbed confessions to Aragorn he admits to Aragorn he attempted to take the Ring from Frodo. But it goes even beyond admittance of wrong-doing, it is an acceptance of his own fault in it, and he now paid the price for his own mistake...his life, which is the steepest price to pay.

'I tried to take the Ring from Frodo,' he said. 'I am sorry. I have paid.'~The Departure of Boromir

Now by growth, I wonder if you believe if Council-Boromir attempted to take the Ring soon after the Fellowship left, would he have been able to respond in the same way that he does at Parth Galen?

Taking onto Form's point then, how perhaps Boromir's redemption does not fit with the Council-Boromir, nor the arrogance he shows. Aside from narrational bias of Frodo, I think Boromir can also show the good quality of Pride. Now, I realize not all are going to agree with me on this point, but I think it's Boromir's own pride which allows him to realize he is "better" than his attempt to take the Ring. Boromir also represents the good aspect of Pride...pride and confidence in your own self-worth. It is Boromir's pride and honor, which allows him to have one of those "I'm better than this" moments.

I find it ironic that with Boromir there seems to be the love him-hate him polarization, where someone like Grima or Gollum strike up more sympathy. Not saying that anyone has this opinion, but I do see irony in the "pitying" of Grima, but how easily put off one can be by Boromir. That could be do to Boroimr's Pride (something Gollum and Grima have little of), however I think there are a few other explanations too.

Grima and Gollum both fall short of forgiveness. They can't go beyond "pity," thus like Gandalf to Grima, and Frodo to Gollum, we may feel sorry and sympathize with their stories (or we may not). Boromir steps beyond Pity, into forgiveness. So, we either agree with Aragorn and Gandalf that he was "saved" and we are "glad," or we are left wondering...wait a second this seems out of place with the Boromir we met at the Council and after.

Here's the difference though, Boromir's "good" Pride allows him to recognize his own fault in trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He only goes so far as to say a "madness" took him, he never says "It was the Ring that made me." He does quite the opposite by saying "I tried to..." and "I am sorry. I have paid."

Grima and Gollum on the other hand, pass off blame to the outside factors. Gollum kills Deagol because the Ring was "his birthday present" and he felt he deserved it. Grima poisons his king, tries to steal a woman, and actually eats a hobbit, but all says "Saruman made me do it." They have little Pride (good or bad) and in the end never take responsibility for their choices. So, they can never be forgiven, but we look at them through sympathetic-colored specs, because of their "sad" stories. While at times, probably playing down the simple facts that they killed, betrayed, murdered, and never reached forgiveness.

For Boromir, I see Form's point about the narrational bias of Frodo. It could very well be that in Frodo's hero-worship of Gandalf and Aragorn was "put off" by Boromir's arrogance at the Council and therefor the bad first impression (combined with the bad final impression, which was never reconciled), leaves the Fellowship Boromir as a jarring contrast to the "redeemed" Boromir.

However, if you remove Frodo, we see the better parts of Boromir. This is not to say Frodo is wrong (as is evidenced by Faramir's own honest assessment of his brother), but simply that Frodo doesn't know the full picture of Boromir. As is evidenced by Faramir's honest assessment, Pippin's reflection, and Boromir's "good" Pride. So in short, like Legate, I think I like the answer of "both" the best.

Faramir Jones

10-23-2010, 09:04 AM

What struck me here is the order in which Boromir uses two sentences. After saying that he tried to take the Ring from Frodo, he said, 'I am sorry. I have paid'. If these two sentences had been switched around, and he had instead said, 'I have paid. I am sorry', readers might have seen him as a person only admitting to wrongdoing because he paid as a result of it.

But Boromir takes full responsibilty for his decision, first making it clear that he was wrong, and paid as a result of the decision.

What do people think?

Galadriel55

10-24-2010, 06:43 PM

That's a very interesting view. So it's like Boromir put up a wall of pride around himself and didn't allow pity or regret to come in. But when he was dying, he destroyed that wall and allower his true - deep - feelings to show.

About the dream, I agree that the valar sent it, because non of ME characters seem to have any connection with it, and naming Eru is reaching too far up. I also agree that Boromir's pride is what pushed him to travel to Imladris and find out about something he doesn't really care about. Who could do it better than him - much less Faramir, who is obsessed with elves and wizards and that sort of people.

alatar

09-20-2011, 09:59 AM

Great posts! Glad that I stumbled upon this thread. Anyway...

- The dream has no sender. It's possible that Númenórean blood imparts a sensitivity to the Music. Persons can 'hear' bits and bars of the history of Arda being (re)played out. But, you may say, this dream of Faramir's includes a 'do this' phrase that wouldn't come from just passively receiving the Music (like in Frodo's dreams). However, if the Steward's sons are hearing the Music, and seeing what is to come, they would see that one of the two of them will be 'seeking' Imladris, and so interpret (maybe fuzzily) what they hear as a command.

- The dream has a sender. I believe that Eru or one of the Valar have sent the dream, and earlier posters have made my argument. That said, if there is a sender, do you think that the sender hit his/her/its target? Did the 'intended' brother go north? If so, then why was Faramir so inundated with it? If not, then what does that say about the dream-sending mechanism?

Inziladun

09-20-2011, 12:00 PM

The dream has no sender. It's possible that Númenórean blood imparts a sensitivity to the Music. Persons can 'hear' bits and bars of the history of Arda being (re)played out. But, you may say, this dream of Faramir's includes a 'do this' phrase that wouldn't come from just passively receiving the Music (like in Frodo's dreams). However, if the Steward's sons are hearing the Music, and seeing what is to come, they would see that one of the two of them will be 'seeking' Imladris, and so interpret (maybe fuzzily) what they hear as a command.

If this is the case, I still wonder why the two of them had the word "halfling" in their dream. Just as the word wouldn't seem likely to be in the Gondorian psyche, I have doubts Hobbits were in the Music as known to the Valar (and by proxy, the Eldar and the Númenóreans). It is said in the Ainulindalë that Eru did not reveal all to the Valar, and I feel Hobbits were one of those "secret" things, mainly because none of the source "authors" of Bilbo's Books of Lore made reference to them.

- The dream has a sender. I believe that Eru or one of the Valar have sent the dream, and earlier posters have made my argument. That said, if there is a sender, do you think that the sender hit his/her/its target? Did the 'intended' brother go north? If so, then why was Faramir so inundated with it? If not, then what does that say about the dream-sending mechanism?

I think the Sender knew what would happen in advance; that Boromir would insist on going and would get his way. Faramir was naturally more touched by it than his brother because he was more receptive to the idea that Gondor needed help, and the idea of Elendil's sword returning was attuned to his reverence for the past, and hope for the return of the King.

Boromir, on the other hand, wanted only to destroy the immediate threat, Sauron, and wasn't really all that interested in the King coming back. I think he only went to Rivendell because Faramir was set on doing so.

Sarumian

09-26-2011, 04:56 PM

It looks, Denethor at some point came to the idea that the treacherous Grey Wizard was the sender of the dream... And I please myself thinking he was correct. :) What Denethor could never appreciate is that someone else was able to take better care of Gondor. I would like to bar powers far away from involvement into every tiny thing happening in ME. In my version the dream was sent by Gandalf but the verses were most probably written by good old Bilbo. Why Gandalf needed a son of Denethor coming to Rivendell? Simply because it was Elrond's land, where, out of Denethor's reach, the stranger would have paid more respect to His Majesty unmasked. He initially wanted Faramir to be the witness for the coming king. It was in vain, however, as Faramir's father did not believe dreams as other ultimate rubbish. So Gandalf changed his mind in favour of Boromir. He could have thought it was even better to convince the stubborn elder brother to embrace the king returning as he was able to put pressure on his own father. With the Ring in proximity it all came up even more complex but worked well in the end (not for Boromir, unfortunately, but I believe, Eru redeemed him). And if Gandalf appears a bit machiavellian this way, it only gives more insight into his character and circumstances. He also was slightly ruthless when he persuaded Thorin Oakenshield and Bilbo to go for their dragon hunt, wasn't he? :D

Galadriel55

09-26-2011, 06:15 PM

I don't really think that Bilbo composed the lyrics and Gandaf sent them to the brothers.

The dream was a prophecy. Bilbo, as good a poet as he was, did not make prophecies. He based some of his poems (like the Aragorn one) on existing prophecies, but he was no diviner.

If Gandalf indeed sent the dream, I don't think he even thought of the lyrics. He sent the idea, the purpose, you name it. The words came out because Elves and Men of high descent in ME happen to be poetic/musical.

But even that seems unlikely. The Gandalf that "ruthelessly persuaded" Thorin and Bilbo is only half-canonical, if you get my meaning. This was the same Gandalf who was afraid of wolves and threw pinecones at them from the top of a tree. Is it the same Gandalf who defeated the Balrog? TH is a bit of a different story, separate from the rest of ME...

And anyways, I don't think Gandalf is that much into intrigue and politics to try to convert one of Denethor's sons so that he'd put pressure on his father.

I like what Alatar proposed:

- The dream has no sender.

This is probably the most realistic of the theories, IMO. But I think it's because the Numenorians, like Elves, had a bit of a divine side to them, not because of the Music. They all were inclined for a bit of prophecy here and there.

Inziladun

09-26-2011, 06:36 PM

This is probably the most realistic of the theories, IMO. But I think it's because the Numenorians, like Elves, had a bit of a divine side to them, not because of the Music. They all were inclined for a bit of prophecy here and there.

The problem I have with this interpretation is the timing.

For me, it strains credibility to think that both sons of the Ruling Steward of Gondor would just happen to have the dream at just the right moment: not long before the Halfling in question set out for Imladris on his own. Even Michael Bay wouldn't film such a contrived plot. Well, ok. He would. ;)

Galadriel55

09-26-2011, 07:05 PM

For me, it strains credibility to think that both sons of the Ruling Steward of Gondor would just happen to have the dream at just the right moment: not long before the Halfling in question set out for Imladris on his own.

But isn't this whole "councel of Elrond" thing all about the coincidental timing? Frodo & Friends come to Rivindell around the same time as Gimli, Legolas, and Boromir? I am not sure about Galdor since Elven settlements could be exchanging messengers all the time, and his presence thus would not be coincidental.

I do not have FOTR with me to quote, bt I think Elrond says it himself - they all came though none were called. They were all gathered by some force (call it "fate" if you prefer) to decide on the Ring and form a Fellowship.

Inziladun

09-26-2011, 07:12 PM

But isn't this whole "councel of Elrond" thing all about the coincidental timing? Frodo & Friends come to Rivindell around the same time as Gimli, Legolas, and Boromir? I am not sure about Galdor since Elven settlements could be exchanging messengers all the time, and his presence thus would not be coincidental.

I do not have FOTR with me to quote, bt I think Elrond says it himself - they all came though none were called. They were all gathered by some force (call it "fate" if you prefer) to decide on the Ring and form a Fellowship.

Which speaks for the idea that there was a purpose behind the dream, and against it being a mere by-product of Númenórean heritage.

alatar

11-03-2011, 07:52 PM

I finally found my Sil...sometimes I swear it disappears into some other dimension, only to reappear when I'm looking for something else.

Anyway, maybe it's Gandalf implanting dreams...
But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

...or maybe there was no sender...
And it is said by the Eldar that in the water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.

Legate of Amon Lanc

11-04-2011, 04:55 AM

Just as a remark to the idea of Gandalf being the sender, let me requote something I have said earlier here:

(...) Gandalf or Galadriel would surely say, certainly at some point, "Yes, it was me who actually sent the dream", or it would be written in some of Tolkien's notes (I can imagine all these stories in UT with the behind-the-scenes stuff telling something about this). Gandalf himself was sitting at the Council when the question about the dream was brought forth. And (and that is the second point), wouldn't it be totally silly if Gandalf at that point had to say "um, yes, I actually know that dream, I have sent it myself?" Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor. Gandalf would be more logical, as Faramir was his friend, but again, why then did also Boromir get the dream once? Perhaps only if Gandalf once "called the wrong number". In any case, once again, there is no indication that Gandalf knew anything about the subject before Boromir brought it up.

(emphasised relevant parts)

Also, I believe that the talk about Olórin's "power" refers to him talking to the people and "inspiring" them, not sending them dreams (although of course such a "power" could have had different manifestations inside M-E, but still, we see Gandalf "boosting the morale" of people, talking Hobbits into going for adventures, stuff like that, but he does that by subtleties in his talking, not by sending visions).

FlimFlamSam

11-04-2011, 09:32 AM

Galadriel55 spoke: They were all gathered by some force (call it "fate" if you prefer) to decide on the Ring and form a Fellowship.

For fun, count the number of times "fate", "destiny", "chance" and other such synonyms appear in Lord of the Rings.

Inziladun was, I believe, more on the nose than many gave credit for when he mentioned the connection with Bombadil.

Bombadil and Goldberry (the River-woman and others) are physical manifestations of Gaia (the Greek Titan mother of all--or if you prefer, THE ONE).
It is probably no coincidence that Maia is related to Gaia linguistically, even though the term does not appear in Lord of the Rings. The term "The Powers" does.
Note also Gandalf's parting words to Frodo and company before he visits Bombadil.

The inclusion of Eru as an outside all-knowing God is a corruption to the mythologies of the region from which these elements are derived--namely pict/wode, norse, celtic, anglo-saxon and others.
It is an admitted authorial forced inclusion of a christian/catholic layer, which includes angels, devils and saints--Earendil as a chief example of Sainthood.
It does not belong. One of my problems with... other texts, and those that came after.

I would use an analogy here that may help.
The Silmarillion and other unfinished tales/brief essays and written letters to fans and other people is like Cooking oil.
The Lord of the Rings is like Motor oil.
The Hobbit is like Baby oil.
Just because they all contain the word "oil" does not mean that they belong together. Putting motor oil into your cooking oil gets you things like Myths Transformed and others of that ilk. Putting motor oil into your baby oil gets you things like the aborted 1960 rewrite attempt of The Hobbit.
Galadriel55 mentioned the severe recasting of The Quest of Erebor--this is more a result of putting both cooking and motor oil in the baby oil.

That said...
Returning to what the Lord of the Rings itself presents:
The earth itself speaks quite often in Lord of the Rings. The ents and other living things draw their power (for even MORE fun, check the number of times the word "power" comes up in relation to inhabitants and locales) from the earth--like Old-man Willow for example. The earth is an active participant in events, and is seemingly the source guiding them though visions and dreams as the hand of fate, as all living things are part of the earth and connected to it.
Dust to dust as they say.

Note the Arthurian connection between Gandalf/Aragorn and Merlin/Arthur.
You can go even further with the Lady of the Lake (another manifestation of Gaia) and Excalibur. The mysterious appearance of the seedling of the white tree found on Mindolluin presages any of the incidents leading up to the war of the ring. Checking the Tale of Years shows no event that would account for the emergence of the seedling, not even the presence of Gandalf, yet Gandalf knows it will be present and why he takes Aragorn to that spot.
Attribute it to Eru if you like, but once you look at the whole picture that explanation falls flat on its face.

The symbols of the reigns of both Arthur and Aragorn are derived from the earth.
Excalibur is drawn from the earth (the stone) and returned to the earth (via the Lady of the Lake) at the end of Arthur's reign. Aragorn obtains the seedling at the beginning of his reign (Narsil as well if you care to continue the Excalibur connection).
They are gifts, from the earth.

As an amusing aside; Gandalf is twice obliquely compared to Merlin in Lord of the Rings as aging backwards. Once in Shadow of the Past and once in Voice of Saruman.
In Shadow, he recalls his appearance 90 years previous where his hair was whiter, his beard and eyebrows longer, and his face more lined with care and wisdom. Curious statement, no?

In Voice, Treebeard has a joke with Gandalf concerning haste and how he feels he is growing backwards towards youth. While this statement seems innocuous, notice that "hasty" is exactly what Gandalf is after his "renewal".
In fact, just about every second sentence out of his mouth concerns haste and his need of it, and he constantly berates others for their lack of it.
How does he "heal" Theoden? He basically tells the old fart to get up off his arse, go outside and DO SOMETHING. Be hasty. Renew. Theoden Ednew.

Old Gandalf--pretty much just farts around, mostly.
Oh he does stuff, but not in haste.

While the Arthurian connection is not terribly important to the overall discussion, the fact that "renewal" is a product of change, not idleness. Mother Nature (or Gaia) is not idle. Howerver it does also serve to illustrate the connections to the regional mythologies drawn upon, and is not christian/catholic in origin.

Another connection to the Gaia earth theme is the five wizards themselves.
They are elemental. Earth (Radagast), Fire (Gandalf), Air and Water (the Blue wizards) with Saruman representing the fifth element--Man, and Man's tendancy to be either corrupted or exalted.
Exalted, the head of the order commanding all the other elements.
Corrupted, cast out.

The earth themes flowing though the book are strong once you recognize them for what they are. Just look at the level of detail regarding descriptive nature elements in the book if you doubt nature is a heavy authorial theme.

Remember, oils do not all mix.
Doing so leads to alchemical frustrations as the author (and myself) belatedly discovered.
Keep the ingredients pure.

blantyr

11-04-2011, 01:25 PM

Remember, oils do not all mix.
Doing so leads to alchemical frustrations as the author (and myself) belatedly discovered.
Keep the ingredients pure.

Your oils metaphor is interesting, but I am pleased Tolkien dabbled in different genera. I see the Silmarillion and similar works to be pastiche, “an artistic work in a style that imitates that of another work, artist, or period.” These older works were often in the style of the old epics, while The Hobbit and LotRs were more modern novels. Silmarillion was close to a pagan theme, while The Hobbit had a strong tine of children’s work, while LotR leaned towards the Christian world view.

Tolkien grew as an author and a scholar. He did not retain the same perspective and values in his art over his entire life. As he grew, his highest priority was not to go back and rewrite his older stuff so that all his works are nitpick consistent. His newer works borrowed depth and flavor from the older, but fans expecting all the works to be entirely in agreement with one another are… Hmm. In the interests of keeping things friendly, I guess I’ll not say explicitly what they are.

If you are encountering ‘alchemical frustrations,’ I suspect the problem is with you rather than Tolkien. You are demanding of The Master more than he was interested in giving.

As for your elemental interpretation, it seems sort of plausible, but hardly the only possible view. I would, for example, associate Radagast with Beasts rather than Earth. I would call Saruman an Artificer, rather than associating him with Man. (And, yes, I am using Ambar Quenta’s (https://sites.google.com/site/ambarquenta/home) perspective on Middle Earth again, but I reject an argument that AQ must be wrong because it was created for role playing. Radagast is a specialist in beasts, while Saruman works with machines and artifacts. In this case, AQ’s system of realms is just more comprehensive and true to Tolkien than an elemental approach.)

Is there any source for a claim that the blue wizards are associated with air and water?

I also just have a gut feeling that Middle Earth and the Arthur mythos are sort of like two different types of oil.

Rumil

11-04-2011, 01:52 PM

Interesting points FlimFlamSam, though I'd disagree about Gandalf aging backwards.

In the Shadow of the Past, Frodo notes that Gandalf appears older and more careworn. Then Gandalf thinks back to Bilbo's day with

His hair was perhaps whiter than it had been then

etc, showing that G was aging forwards if, admittedly, very slowly!

Though agree that after his renewal there was considerably more spring in the step of Gandalf the White.

Meanwhile on the dream, why was it sent to Boromir at all if Faramir was supposed to go, on the other hand why bother with Faramir if Boromir was supposed to go all along?

(I'd subscribe to the Eru/Valar/outside fatey sort of thing interpretation by the way.)

Was the dream sent to Boromir to increase Denethor's belief in it? Otherwise it could just be interpreted by Denethor as that ditzy wizard's pupil younger son off chasing fairy tales again.

Was Boromir lying when he claimed to have had the same dream. Unlikely I think, but perhaps worth considering. Motivation - I'm the elder, so all the important stuff should be done myself. Or - I don't think Faramir's up to the job, it'd be better for me to do it. Or - Dad wants me to go instead so I'll play along.

What was the job? If you put yourself in Denethor's position, then the mention of the Sword that was Broken and Rivendell, on the border of Arnor, should make you put two-and-two together and come up with an heir, real or pretended. If you're Denethor, should you send the 'weaker' son who might end up with the wool pulled over his eyes and support the 'heir', or should you send the stronger son, who's more likely to have the interests of Gondor, ie the Stewards, at heart? Bear in mind the risks of them being lost en route, or even suffering some 'accident' at the hands of this unknown 'heir'.

Pitchwife

11-04-2011, 06:06 PM

It is probably no coincidence that Maia is related to Gaia linguistically, even though the term does not appear in Lord of the Rings. The term "The Powers" does.
Like this wasn't exactly the kind of punning on RL languages that Tolkien explicitely denied played any part in his linguistic inventions (I can't cite the exact letter at the moment, but he was answering somebody who had wondered whether Sauron was connected to Greek sauros.)

The inclusion of Eru as an outside all-knowing God is a corruption to the mythologies of the region from which these elements are derived--namely pict/wode, norse, celtic, anglo-saxon and others.[...]
It does not belong. One of my problems with... other texts, and those that came after.
Only if you think Tolkien's task was to render those mythologies as he found them rather than create something new inspired by them. In other words, you're talking about what he should have written according to your opinion, not what he did write. I'm not always happy myself with Tolkien's attempts to bring his legendarium in accord with his Christian faith, but I think we must accept that this was important to him and include it in our interpretations rather than discard it as a 'corruption' of a 'pure' mythology that isn't there in the texts.

As an amusing aside; Gandalf is twice obliquely compared to Merlin in Lord of the Rings as aging backwards. Once in Shadow of the Past and once in Voice of Saruman.
In Shadow, he recalls his appearance 90 years previous where his hair was whiter, his beard and eyebrows longer, and his face more lined with care and wisdom. Curious statement, no?
No. Quoted in full, the passage you refer to reads like this:
Gandalf was thinking of a spring, nearly eighty years before, when Bilbo had run out of Bag End without a handkerchief. His hair was perhaps whiter than it had been then, and his beard and eyebrows were perhaps longer, and his face more lined with care and wisdom[...](bolding mine)
Quite clearly the comparison is exactly the other way round than you were suggesting.

The earth themes flowing though the book are strong once you recognize them for what they are. Just look at the level of detail regarding descriptive nature elements in the book if you doubt nature is a heavy authorial theme.
It would indeed be foolish to doubt or deny that nature was highly important to Tolkien, and it has often be said (and justly) that Middle-earth itself is the main character in LotR, while Eru, to the extent that he plays any part at all in the story, is very much kept in the background - a force to be guessed rather than a manifest one. Why that means that we must disregard him and the wider context of the legendarium when talking about LotR is, however, beyond me.

It's not like I don't sympathize to a degree with your championing Gaia, and focussing on the meaning generated by the text over the author's intention is of course a legitimate method of literary criticism; but in general, your arguments look to me like you're bringing your own agenda to the text and trying to make the two agree willy-nilly.

Keep the ingredients pure.
No. Writing, like cooking, is all about blending ingredients; it's the proportional mixture of the ingredients that makes a book or a meal interesting. Purity is boring.

As for your elemental interpretation, it seems sort of plausible, but hardly the only possible view. I would, for example, associate Radagast with Beasts rather than Earth. I would call Saruman an Artificer, rather than associating him with Man. (And, yes, I am using Ambar Quenta’s (https://sites.google.com/site/ambarquenta/home) perspective on Middle Earth again, but I reject an argument that AQ must be wrong because it was created for role playing. Radagast is a specialist in beasts, while Saruman works with machines and artifacts. In this case, AQ’s system of realms is just more comprehensive and true to Tolkien than an elemental approach.)
Well, Radagast was a Maia of Yavanna Kementári, whose epithet means "Earth-Queen", and Man can be defined as an artificing animal (Homo faber); but in Middle-earth, artificing isn't the sole province of Men - the Noldor were there before, and your interpretation of Radagast and Saruman certainly fits what we're told of them in LotR. (By the way, I don't think everybody ever said that "AQ must be wrong because it was created for role playing" - just that using it as an interpretative approach can be useful in some cases but less useful in others.)

I also just have a gut feeling that Middle Earth and the Arthur mythos are sort of like two different types of oil.
I have a gut feeling that you're in good company there.

blantyr

11-05-2011, 08:03 AM

Well, Radagast was a Maia of Yavanna Kementári, whose epithet means "Earth-Queen", and Man can be defined as an artificing animal (Homo faber); but in Middle-earth, artificing isn't the sole province of Men - the Noldor were there before, and your interpretation of Radagast and Saruman certainly fits what we're told of them in LotR. (By the way, I don't think everybody ever said that "AQ must be wrong because it was created for role playing" - just that using it as an interpretative approach can be useful in some cases but less useful in others.)

While Kementári translates as "Earth-Queen," Yavanna is "Giver of Fruits." Looking at her history as tender of the first plants and patroness of the Ents, I associate her with plants more than anything else. Radagast seems to deal with animals more than plants, but I could see where he would be associated with her.

Reviewing the Valar, I’m not sure anyone is associated with the element Earth as clearly, for example, as Ulmo is to the sea. Even there, Ulmo is of the sea rather than of all water. If one was determined to dwell on an elemental theme, one might say Elbereth is associated with air, but she is better associated with the stars and protection from Shadow.

Anyway, there are too many Valar for the four elements to be the major theme. If elements were the major theme, the four most potent Valar ought to be clearly associated with the elements. This doesn’t feel right to me.

(By the way, I don't think everybody ever said that "AQ must be wrong because it was created for role playing" - just that using it as an interpretative approach can be useful in some cases but less useful in others.)

Perhaps they did not use these words, but I have found it best to plagiarize on these boards when expressing ideas found in AQ. If I attribute ideas to the true source, I get flack, so much of the time I don’t attribute anymore. While AQ is hardly canon, the author and his circle took a much more systematic and inclusive approach to Tolkien than most fans.

AQ does have a filter. Trying to be detailed enough for a set of role playing rules means a lot of gaps have to be filled with extrapolation and guesswork. Still, it seems like everyone has some sort of filter, for example filtering Middle Earth through the lens of the Arthur mythos and elements. Others seem to believe all of Tolkien’s works ought to be consistent, and find themselves hacking away at bits and pieces of various stories in an attempt to remove conflict with other stories. I would rather let each work stand on its own.