When was Gandalf in Moria?

[Sardy]

Just curious if this is adressed anywhere? When did Gandalf make his first trip through Moria, and what were the circumstances surrounding it?

On a similar topic, I'm reading the trilogy for the 6th time, and find Aragorn's insistance that if they do enter Moria that Gandalf personally will be in danger? How does he know this? Why does he believe this? I assume that he either had a "dream" or is thinking of some omen or prophesy, though no explanation seems to be evident in the text...

[Glirdan]

To answer your thread question, if I'm not mistaken, it does explain the circumstances and reasoning for why Gandalf first entered Moria in the FotR. I believe he first went in when he was searching for Thrain and Thror, Thorin's father and grand-father. It explains that in (correct me if I'm wrong) The Unfinished Tales as well as The Hobbit. Now that I think about though, i don't think it did say it anywhere in the FotR so, if someone could verify what I just said, it'd be appreciated.

[Boromir88]

Well, Glirdan there may be more, but there is this, and it should be sufficient to back ya up :) :

"Good Gimli!" said Gandalf. "You encourage me. We will seek the hidden doors together. And we will come through. In the ruins of the Dwarves, a dwarf's head will be less easy to bewuilder than Elves or Men or Hobbits. Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thrain son of Thror after he was lost. I passed through, and I came out again alive!"~A Journey in the Dark
And if I remember right Gandalf had gone searching for Thrain because he had one of the Dwarven Rings.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sardy, if you read the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' in Appendix A, you will discover that he comes from a family that is gifted with foresight. I'm not sure whether there is a reference anywhere that sheds more light on this particular instance, but at any rate, it is an inherited ability. Perhaps it was strengthened by his close contact with the Elves as well, perhaps even amplified through the connection with Arwen. The latter is, however, pure speculation on my part.

[Mithalwen]

It seems that some people have moments of foresight rather than it as a permanent faculty althoug it may be obscured that the elves long lives give them such experience of the world that they are better at knowing what is likely to happen (like adults watching children on a course of action, that the adults feels will inevitably end in tears but as long as it won't end in blood and a trip to casualty they let the children learn by experience). Also there is the distinction between true foresight and a hunch.

Aragorn does seem to have a moment of true insight when he is so specific about Gandalf but it is less clear say with Halbarad's prediction of his own death at the door of the Paths of the Dead. He is riding to battle and you could say that his death lay beyond even if it were many years later. Similarly when Legolas say he fears that they will not all be together again - does he know already that Gandalf at least will soon depart, is it more than a less than optimistic guess?

Another clear example from the first age would be the prediction of Huor regarding Earendil. I can't help thinking that the isloated incidentsat points of extreme stress are more interesting than the predictions of those we expect to have special abilities (such as Saruman foretelling that Frodo will have neither health or long life). I would also link (in my speculation at least) other moments of unusual power such as Sam's Elvish invocation in the tower of Cirith Ungol. If isolated incidents are not manifestations of someone's inherent capacity are they "sent" - and now perhaps I should adjourn to the thread about Boromir and Faramir's dream... :rolleyes:

[Rhod the Red]

I don't think Aragorn had forsight. it's just that he knew Moria was dangerious at the time. With the goblins on the rampage. Plus, it seems as if Gandalf's magic is quite limited.

The red ring appears to only be usable with wood around. So there wasn't much chance of using it in Moria.

Aside from that, Gandalf doesn't appear to have any capacities beyond a human. He had his stamina and sword: enough to get through Moria the first time, but a second?

[Formendacil]

I don't think Aragorn had forsight. it's just that he knew Moria was dangerious at the time. With the goblins on the rampage. Plus, it seems as if Gandalf's magic is quite limited.

Really?

I have my doubts there... If Aragorn was worried about the threats of Moria based simply upon what they were, then Frodo- or any of the Hobbits- would have been the ones in real danger, not Gandalf. And Aragorn does address his specific concern directly to Gandalf.

Why worry about a 2000-year old wizard with magic and a sword when there's a 4 foot tall non-combatant (in most respects) on whom the Fate of the world rests?

The red ring appears to only be usable with wood around. So there wasn't much chance of using it in Moria.

I think you may be confusing Narya with Gandalf's natural affinity for fire. And, for what it's worth, fire generally one does catch when there's fuel around. Narya may be the "Ring of Fire", but it's more directly concerned with rekindling hope- spiritual fire, so to speak- than with actually lighting fires.

Aside from that, Gandalf doesn't appear to have any capacities beyond a human. He had his stamina and sword: enough to get through Moria the first time, but a second?

True enough, but making it through once gives one experience to draw off a second time, thus making a second journey more likely than the first.

Good points, though- and welcome to the 'Downs.

[Rhod the Red]

"but making it through once gives one experience to draw off a second time" Perhaps but not in Aragon's it seems. Or at least it wasn't enough as justification in his view.

[Mänwe]

I would alert you to the fact that Aragorn did indeed also pass through Moria before their eventful and tragic passage.

"`I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'" - Book II Chapter 4, A Journey in the Dark

He does not elaborate on what he experienced, but it is obviously sufficient enough to dissuage him from the want to enter again. Consequently he knew of something rather evil.

[Formendacil]

I would alert you to the fact that Aragorn did indeed also pass through Moria before their eventful and tragic passage.

"`I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'" - Book II Chapter 4, A Journey in the Dark

He does not elaborate on what he experienced, but it is obviously sufficient enough to dissuage him from the want to enter again. Consequently he knew of something rather evil.

If one wants to pedantic... and since you seem the pedantic sort, I'll permit myself the amusement thereof, it simply says that Aragorn entered Moria- it does not say that he passed THROUGH Moria. To poke one's head through the gate and decide that it's a very nasty place, as Dáin did and presumeably as Aragorn did, is bold enough in the context of Moria, but isn't QUITE the same as Gandalf's trek THROUGH Moria.

[Thinlómien]

The Gandalf-Moria incident is not the only one where Aragorn shows his foresight.

He also tells Éomer before he goes to the Paths of the Dead that they will meet in the battle. Of course that can be interpreted only as confidence, but it's worth keeping in mind...

[Mänwe]

Formendacil, I permit you your amusement and my own. :) But is that really what it is saying? Allow me to be pedantic, it does state that he simply entered then left either! :D

"I passed the Dimril Gate..."

I take it as passing across the threshold of one entrance into Moria, it would strike me as odd indeed,

"To poke one's head through the gate and decide that it's a very nasty place,"

as you put it. Especially in Aragorn's case, he does not seem to me the character who would conduct such a casual observation; does he not to you, create a person who would undertake a task properly?

Yes although there is no specific quote stating he passed through, I do not expect anythin less from him. As why Tolkien does not simply have him say so. I would answer that it was in context of Aragorn's character at the time. He does not reveal an awful lot, he is in conflict with who he is meant to be.

For he is troubled to take lead even of the Fellowship when Gandalf falls from the bridge in Khazad-dum.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

That's an interesting theory about Strider not
going all the way to the West Gate. While it
may seem pedantic, it would square with his
letting Gandalf determine the way through
Moria. If he hadn't been all the way through
he wouldn't have Gandalf's firsthand knowledge.

Also, (somewhat erratically inspired?) foresight
seems to be a not uncommon occurence in even
the Third Age. Witness Eomer's response to
Aragorn:



'Thus we meet again, though all the hosts
of Mordor lay between us,' said Aragorn. Did I not say
so at the Hornburg?'
'So you spoke,' said Eomer, 'but hope oft
deceives, and I knew not then you were a man foresighted.'